This is A LOT of HP... | Ascension 20 Ironclad Run | Slay the Spire

[@charleshale7025]

I’ve been watching you play Slay the Spire everyday for so long now, love u Jorbs.

[@Anusien]

I really enjoyed the “win more” conversation because jorbs brought a more thoughtful and nuanced view to it than most Magic theorists. Turns out he’s good at games!

[@l.p.7585]

Yeah it was fun. I think "win more" is hard to apply to spire as card advantage doesnt really apply in the same way, and the best analogue to board state, something like passive damage/block per turn, isn't really part of spire. I suppose another way to say it is that opportunity cost of taking a card in spire is more than just the deck slot

[@ethanunderwood3024]

@@l.p.7585 Well there was a very clear example of a win-more card in this run, and Jorbs even identifies it as such. In one of the stores, Jorbs does not buy Flash of Steel because he calls istunnecessary; literally, because it would win-more. He is just pretending not to understand a very clear concept so he can smugly appear knowledgeable, which he does most of the times chat discusses something.

[@l.p.7585]

@@ethanunderwood3024 yeah i know, it's just a fun game to play. Prodding or pruning at a process, policy, or heuristic is an excellent way to formalise it and test its limits

[@Adamony]

“I’m no longer getting weakened turn 1; get owned.”

[@BeginswithPIE]

There actually was a type of Tournament format for Magic the Gathering back in the day were you kept your HP between matches. So everyone started with 20 HP, and if you lost 19 in your first game, you'd have 1 in your second. This screwed over some decks that worked off of spending their HP as a resource, but I lucked out. I hadn't even been told about the rule set, but my deck was an elf deck that had an infinite going on that let me generate infinite HP, mana, units and damage. So I got to go ham on the first guy who didn't really know what he was doing and then walk into the second match and laugh at burn deck as it tried desperately to plink away at my 5 digit health bar. You just got to love when the game designers accidently cause an infinite because they forget a deck can have more than one color.

[@grahamhoke8140]

I tend to agree with Jorbs on the point that "win-more" as a short-hand is over simplifiying a concept that gets thrown around a lot. Chat could not even agree on a definition, which makes the term seem very ambiguous.

[@radone97]

Whoever asked which card getting toked would fuck up the character most: you rule

[@inevitabledeth]

My favorite "eat the rich mukbang" stream

[@Saturosian]

I think it's funny that Jorbs seems to think Venture Capital firms are like, Kickstarter backers that just let you walk away with free money, instead of like, shady guys in Vegas who work for casinos and come break your knees if you don't pay them back fast enough.

[@Jorbs]

my experience with venture capital has definitely been "free money". my fave venture capital story is one of my friends was trying to build the WWE for fortnite with vtubers, which sounds cool but is just not actually a good idea. he'd been running it for a while and was getting

[@zhuzhou]

It's funny how angry Jorbs immediately gets when anyone tries to tell him something new or explain an idea or even politely ask something

[@zhuzhou]

‘How do you pick cards in magic?’ A polite question. His answer: ‘I try to pick cards which will lead me to have the highest chance to win afterwards’ He just refuses to engage. If you don’t want to discuss something you can just not answer…😊

[@inevitabledeth]

​@@zhuzhou sure, but people ask the same questions over and over... I don't think I would be as polite

[@zhuzhou]

@@inevitabledeth yes. I think jorbs is pretty great, and an amazing mind. I just feel sorry that his mind is encumbered with this super hair trigger anger/resistance when he interacts with other people. I've seen it improve over the years, and nowadays he occasionally is able to just speak to people as people. But still, 75% of the time he just "refuses to engage" either trolling them or getting angry. It must be hard to have such intense feelings all the time. I just want this great mind to be happy and content with life!

[@Jorbs]

fwiw i don't actually get particularly angry or anything. i just am busy doing something else. one of the reasons i am able to function as a human doing this job is that i choose to spend my energy on the things i think are interesting. re: just not responding, i often start reading messages out loud before i am done reading them. also sometimes if you don't respond to messages people just keep asking the same question over and over. also, while it might not look this way to you as a viewer, reading someone's request and completely ignoring it has always seemed a lot less kind than responding to it to me, even if my response is negative. it feels kind of gross to have a bunch of questions go unanswered in chat; like i am no longer participating in a conversation with my community. my general hope as a streamer is that i'll get to read all of chat's messages and that they will not request too much of my time or energy, or ideally even improve the show by being fun jokes or like, in some way conducive to human connection with other people. also i think sometimes my "non-responses" might actually be responses and you're just not realizing. if you only had 10 seconds to describe how your brain thinks about playing a game you've spent >5000 hours on, saying ~"i always try to do the thing which gives me the highest chance to win" (i believe this was my response?) is actually about as insightful as you can get. if someone is asking a question and expecting a >10 second response then like, yeah, no shit that's not going to happen very often, there are 1500 live viewers or whatever, i can't just talk to everyone about exactly what they want to talk about for 5 minutes each.

[@zhuzhou]

@@Jorbs Thanks! That makes sense. I really enjoy your long form explanation videos too, thanks for taking the time to do those. Now I can't help but pitch an abstraction which I think would improve our analysis: "slay the spire problems" It would be a way to take a complete snapshot of a game, including map, deck, relic state etc, at a specific decision point about routing, card choice, relic choice, or at the start of a fight (before visibility into card draw). Then, similar to chess, go, and poker, what to do in this situation would be a concrete thing to discuss and analysebetween. The goal would be to find a way to directly compare the insights of top players in comparable situations. Further extensions to it for validation would be "continue from here" with a set of random seeds, created specifically to obey the natural seed progression as it would have been from this point (i.e. you'd be able to play a fight repeatedly, with different seeds every time; for map level choices, you'd randomly be given a seed that obeys the seed constraints already implicit in the state (no repeat relics in shops, etc.). The seed requirements would eliminate foresight/hindsight since they'd all be genuinely potential future explorations of legitimate future randomness space. If we had this, we'd be able to locate areas of strategy about which there is still difference of opinion between various players; imagine having a set of ten problems and running them by various top players for discussion, and then also having tournaments where each player continues from their choice, ten times, projecting into legitimate potential future space. Obviously this still isn't definitive, but it seems like it'd be a step towards getting something more concrete for us to discuss with each other. An imperfect analogy to this would be to duplicate bridge. Anyway, no need to answer, it's just something I think about and would love to see - a true battle of the minds and hopefully even further refinement and deepening of STS strategy. Thanks!

[@どっすん-w7e]

thumbnail feed is upgraded,I'm glad

[@JandarLefey]

I mean… the “win more” term in gaming in general is something that has the following traits: 1) Uses resources of some kind (deck space, draws, character points/slots) that could be dedicated to other things. 2) is mostly useful in situations where you are already heavily favored. In DnD, feats that trigger from a Coup de Grace are an example. 3) is difficult to impossible to utilize in situations where you are not already within your most powerful niche. Decks can be built differently, and define the point differently. StS values carrying health as a resource, for example. MTG doesn’t, so cards that cause you to regain health off of the plays you make to finish fights are Win More unless they also help during the setup for those plays.

[@ethanunderwood3024]

Just another example of Jorbs being either: 1) stupid (which I do not think he is) or 2) disingenuous (which he is in many of his videos)

[@ysqure3]

"Infinites didn't make you win more!" In this case the "more" means "by larger margins", not "more often". Going infinite doesn't make you more likely to win at all. But it makes you win "more" in the sense that "I was capable of generating 1,000 block and dealing 1,000 damage" is "more" than "I was capable of generating enough block to avoid dying and dealing enough damage to win the fight".

[@BeginswithPIE]

I see 'winmore' as a concept as being a card or strategy that doesn't cause you to win the game, but if you already have the win will give you a bigger number. So if you have a deck that already has enough damage and strength to beat the heart, adding a Limit Break doesn't help you win, it just gives you a bigger number. If could even hurt your chances of winning by making your deck less consistent for survivability... but BIG NUMBER!

[@TheSlowPianist]

@@BeginswithPIE Though the bigger number could help you win one turn sooner, thus avoiding the 15x many attack that kills you!

[@BeginswithPIE]

@@TheSlowPianist Considering you would need to have already survived turns 2 3 and likely 5 already, you probably have some form of survivability, or else you would have died already. And drawing that strength multiplier meant you didn't draw an attack or defend. Admittedly the concept of 'winmore' is more in Monster Train than in Slay the Spire. Since you have the X turns till relentless to build yourself up. Most of the time, doubling your rage or armor doesn't help because you already had enough to win, or else you wouldn't have gotten through the waves. Making those high cost cards that you don't play the first two shuffles actually bad takes.

[@mikesmith-gk6fy]

20:50 “win more” is a term for other card games, I know it from hearthstone, where certain cards are good in a winning position and bad in a losing one, the argument is that you’re already in a winning position, A sts example would be having a 5 card deck guaranteeing a turn 1 infinite, adding feed would be purely cosmetic and potentially break the turn 1

[@Oddigan]

That example doesn't work because Feed is a good card outside of winning positions. "If the card REQUIRES a bunch of prerequisites to be helpful, AND those prerequisites in general would win the game already, then it's a "win-more" card." - A clearer explanation I stole from EvaRia on Reddit. Nightmare isn't a perfect example because the prerequisites to play it don't generally lead to you winning the game on Ascension 20, but it's the best StS example I can think of. You need to be able to survive while committing 3 energy to playing it and have a solid card to use it on. So it's not great in a bad position, and occasionally the times it is good are times you will win without it. Edit: Gave a better reason for Feed not being a fitting example, shamelessly robbed somebody's words, recombobulated my own words.

[@protectdavidchasetaylor2144]

@@Oddigan or the difference between red skull and girya, where if you are struggling(at least health wise) red skull will certainly be active, but if you can hit 3 campfires for 1 strength each and not worry about it you probably would have done fine in the run anyways

[@smaptinator]

@@Oddigan exellent example. Nightmare does nothing or makes a bad deck worse. It also makes a winning deck stronger. But if you already have a winning deck, what is the advantage of winning more?

[@mrinfinity5557]

Well some cards could also be bad in a winning position but good in a losing position. Its a delicate balance, trying to win more so it's harder for your opponent and trying to have failsafes if youre losinf

[@ysqure3]

And even then, sometimes a win more card is important for the deck. Bloodlust is a simple example of a win more card: If you've already established a lead on the board, Bloodlust can let you win the game immediately. If your opponent has been keeping your board clear, it's "5 mana: Do nothing". But it's still been an important card in a lot of decks because the ability to go from "I'm currently ahead" to "The game is over, I've won" can be important. It's hard to evaluate the situations in which a card can help turn a losing position into a winning one, turn "I'm in the process of winning" to "I've won", or turn "I've won" to "I've won and flaunted just how huge my margin of victory was".

[@domagojgregorovic2966]

Liking this video would be win-more, so I'm definitely doing it!

[@ballakobe24]

If my objective is to lose more, am I really winning?

[@jonthomas3065]

I enjoyed Much Ado About Winmore

[@cr0mag732]

Sundial, runic dome and pommel strike infinite, possibly the least entertaining run that could be done

[@gaurd3]

Blow torch!

[@cohenkarnell7799]

Thinking the concept of "win more" is an unhelpful oversimplification most of the time [sound of larger and larger dominos fallling] Dismissing the entire concept of heuristics as just "adding hyper efficiency to your prejudice"

[@Jorbs]

i didn't dismiss the entire concept of heuristics, i said heuristics which let you dismiss things you already didn't like without ever considering their merits might be bad.

[@rayanal-shikhi140]

If you read this comment you're cool!

[@forcefulstorm6187]

!dig

[@RemnantsOfBeauty]

Am I the only one who thinks this is all abit too easy for Jorbs. He needs a better challenge. Perhaps mods can make it more difficult. Once he got an infinite it's just not as fun to watch in my opinion.

[@PombaoDumau]

Oof

[@bruh-dy8co]

If you read this comment, you will become a weeb.