This is how many years

For more free fitness tips, check out my free email course: mennohenselman...
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:44 Do steroid users live longer than the general population?
01:33 Former Sweedish athletes from 1960-1979 period
03:42 Lower mortality rates after the period of usage
04:48 Conclusion
Reference:
www.sciencedir...
bjsm.bmj.com/c...
bjsm.bmj.com/c...
onlinelibrary....
• Földi Imre | Olympic W...
• John Davis Breaks Olym...
#SteroidUse #HealthRisks #FitnessResearch #Longevity #EliteAthletes #MuscleBuilding #CardiovascularHealth #StrengthTraining #HealthOutcomes #mennohenselmans #personaltrainer #personaltrainers #personaltraining #personaltrainerlife #personaltraineronline

[@shihabhossain3414]

Of course the active population that mildly used PEDs lived longer than the non active general population. We need a comparison between physically active PED users and physically active non PED users for a better look as to how much things differ since this subject is only relevant to people who are actually active and have a greater life expectancy than the general public.

[@bryanlee6274]

Yeah I wonder if healthy active gym bros who are smart and take trt-sports dose of test after 10+ year natty vs life time natty

[@janisarbidans8931]

Do we lol ? Im pretty sure vast majority of comments and talking points about steroids have always been that users will drop dead within next 5-10 years and wont even make it past 40. Your take by no means is popular opinion ,because even my rl experience i have faced brutal shaming from people who drink/eat shit all day and think they will outlive me just because they dont use steroids. That being said after age of 75-80 i think its a genetic lottery and how much money you can pump into your body to stay healthy and less what you have done with your body 30-40 years earlier.

[@oioioi-9942]

The chart doesn't show who "lives longer" but rather the percentage of death in any given year. Even with the low steroid doses and the healthy/active lifestyle, the annual death rate of the athletes is some 10-20% higher for a period of 40+ years. At around 63 years of age, the annual death rate of non-athletes passes the death rate of the (former) athletes.

[@noosphericaltarzan]

That's not true. The average gym bro where I live is about on par with the typical MacFatty.

[@johnyotko6615]

That is precisely what I was thinking. This is a false comparison. I would like to see a study comparing natty to enhanced athletes.

[@gregdoucette]

How many years do you think it will take off Mike Israel’s life based on what you know?

[@jason2014]

It's obvious your panties are in a knot because of past issues with Mike. However, you are sinking to a new low here with your tone.

[@blind_warriorr]

He should also ask him about Mike Israetel as well. How were you a teacher yet can’t even spell?

[@XHALE303]

@@blind_warriorr C'mon you know his mantra, more errors than last time. lol

[@umerbsr]

What about Mike Palestine

[@thelibertines111]

​@@umerbsr😂😂😂

[@evelieningels9408]

And why are we comparing top athletes who use steroid with the general population instead of with other top athletes? Seems like there are a few factors besides steroids that would dramatically affect the results

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Because that's just the data set that's available. I agree that there are many other comparisons that need to made to fully understand this, though.

[@JustChill-zd4ib]

Definitely opposes this view that "they will not live past 40"

[@gibbsm]

Because they use steroids. The individual, and their goals is the key, tho.. Also whether they're medically supervised, or just buy gear from the dude at the gym, and try and do your own thing.

[@VernCrisler]

Because there aren't very many "other top athletes" who don't use steroids.

[@miha_ity]

It would be hard to find actual top athletes that are not on PED's...

[@nightrunner14]

Lost my best friend, closer than a blood brother when he was 32 years old. He was a power lifter. He attributed his cancer to Deca and Equipose.

[@trenaceandblackmetal5621]

There is zero evidence steroids cause cancer

[@VernCrisler]

Anecdotal data is so convincing...

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

Steroids don't cause cancer lmfao, hgh and igf1 can speed up the rate of it developing but they factually don't randomly cause cancer😂

[@TheRedAvenger89]

Androgens aren't linked to cancer since they stabilize and prevent DNA damage.

[@connorpenrod397]

My whole life I've had weird health problems that led to some of the same side-effects of steroids such as anxiety, random bouts of anger, and reduced mental capacity. It honestly frustrates me to see people give up the life I'm struggling to achieve.

[@iblisthemage]

So, those are not side effects of testosterone. There is one, 1, study that links Testosterone to agressivenes. That study was made in prison inmates. What you could suffer from sounds like what I suffer from, some variation of ADD/ADHD, and low testosterone. I got diagnosed very late, and the combo of TRT, ADHD medication, and “psycho-education” has improved my quality of life to a degree that is hard to describe. Testosterone does not make you angry or depressed. It gives you the energy to be more you. So if you are of a particular type, but do not have enough T to realize that potential, more T can make you fill out that role, good or bad. There are synthetic compounds, of which one is made for horses, not humans (Trenbolone), that is very psychoactive. It makes people crazy. So don’t take non-bioidentical molecules made for horses 😂😂 (wierd that this is necessary to say). At 55, due to my two main meds, Testosterone and ADHD medicine, I am now able to live a happy harmonious energetic and balanced life, I have gone from 30+ BF to 12, I have fixed my insulin resistance and my cholesterol (from above factors and a very small dose of rosuva statin, 5mg a day). I have perfect blood preassure now. I have one risk factor that I manage: supraphysiological levels of Hemoglobin B. This thickens the blood, and is a cofactor in left venteicular hypertrophy. So I make sure to give blood as well as to have a little bit drained, to keep my Hemoglobin B in normal range. Doc thinks I am one of his healthiest patients. I have to do the TRT from underground sources, so I have to live with that risk (I live in northern Europe). Still, if this quality of life would cost me 10 years life expectancy, I would still do it. But most likely the transformation added years to my life, relatively.

[@LinkEX]

​@@iblisthemage Interesting 'testimonial', thanks for sharing. How did you first find out you had low T? Have you tried ways to naturally increase it via exercise and nutrition? Or is there something worth noting for people with ADHD that can impact T production?

[@iblisthemage]

@@LinkEX it is crucial to understand that the only valid test for “Low T” in men, is the same as the standard of care for womem wrt female Hormone Replacement Theory: symptomatic. Measuring serum concentration is useless, because T (androgen) Receptors is as big a factor as T. So: do you have symptoms, Y/N. If yes, then you might benefit from TRT. Then you start experiment with dosing. There is easily 3x between what some need vs another, dosing wise. If it works, continue. I had done more or less everything, wrt diet, sleep, training, stress, supplements. But my SHBG was sky-high, so very little Free T. I aimed a bit high on the weekly T, and that was a good choice for me.

[@iblisthemage]

@@LinkEX wrt ADHD: Well, it is more difficult to execute life style changes, that is what comes to mind

[@stevewise1656]

Excellent insight and thanks for sharing. Sorry you're struggling and understand. Those are issues for many of us, myself included. You're not alone and sometimes all we can do is manage our anxiety and other feelings, while determining the triggers. As for people who take steroids to look good at the beach, they have no idea what side effects are in their way. As for competitive bodybuilders, they're ignorant as well and if they have a family, using is a selfish act.

[@ibrahimtastekin275]

I appreciate the lack of moral undertones when you talk about PED's.

[@jordixboy]

why? the conclusion was that people lived longer lol, why should he talk bad

[@Arthur-jz8sm]

​@@jordixboy people moralize recreational ped use for no reason. Personally I've always thought it was intrasexual competition

[@jordixboy]

@@Arthur-jz8sm it is moral, everyone can do whatever they want with their bodies, just as people taking plastic surgery, exactly the same, and plastic surgery has way more risks.

[@Arthur-jz8sm]

@@jordixboy I never said it wasn't moral. What I'm saying is this . " Men tend to moralize ped use of other men as a form of intrasexual competition."

[@jordixboy]

@@Arthur-jz8sm not sure what that even means intrasexual wtf

[@immanuelkuhrt8508]

Many confounding variables here. On top of steroid usage, we are comparing elite athletes to the population average. It kind of makes it hard to estimate the actual impact of the steroid usage. Interesting study none the less.

[@DarkoFitCoach]

Yes. There are ofcourse very few non athletes who use steroids. But what we can see is that steroids dangers are offset more by healthy lifestyle of athletes then non steroid helps non athletes with their shitties lifestyle

[@FatMamba69]

Yep, comparing elite athletes to general population to study the health impact of a particular drug makes zero sense, if that's all they did. Not just because of lifestyle differences, but also genetic differences.. Elite athletes don't usually have type 1 diabetes, for example. To really study the impact of steroids, you have to compare comparable populations living in a similar way.... I don't know if the authors corrected by any of those differences, but even if they did, I don't think it's enough to compensate for how genetically different Elite athletes are from the normal person

[@DarkoFitCoach]

@@FatMamba69 yes but general pop doesnt take steroids so comparing athletes to gen pop is all we have

[@elduderino1329]

Very few? What planet are you living on? Most steroid users are not athletes and not competing in any sports.

[@DarkoFitCoach]

@@elduderino1329 you know what i meant: by athletes we mean people who train. I have never seen anybodh take steroids and not exercise. Have u?

[@plsnomore]

This data is kinda useless tbh but not for the obvious reason. The thing is that people's response to steroids may be waaay different from person to person. "Elite athletes" usually have elite genetics. They are already predisposed to have much better benefit to side effects ratio than general population. If you put an average gym visitor on a serios stack, chances are the only things they would be able to grow are prostate and boobs.

[@tonyroman8207]

i dont think that being genetically gifted in one area can have any direct effect on how your body responds to steroids do you have any specific evidence to support your claim or are u just assuming naturally stronger people are just better all around?

[@plsnomore]

@@tonyroman8207 honestly, I don't even know how to respond to your message. It's kinda common knowledge and there's no any research data to back this (not that I am aware of). It practically the same as asking research data to prove that 2+2=4. If you're interested about the topic you may want to start with looking into individual difference in muscle fiber composition, AR density and sensitivity, myostatin levels, sensitivity to cortisol, IGF-1 pathway, metabolic and inflammatory responses. Steroids is just a part of equation.

[@pedrogouveia4326]

@@tonyroman8207 do you know how steroids work?

[@MeptieGoEsTop]

U can eat healthy and do sports without steroids also.

[@agustinreyes6111]

If you like being small.

[@billking8843]

@@agustinreyes6111 If your self respect isn't dependent on winning 'mine is bigger than yours' competitions. ; )

[@agustinreyes6111]

@@billking8843 geegede!

[@robbertag808]

@@agustinreyes6111 I am not small.

[@nonoffensiveperson9877]

Hot take

[@robertwilcox9566]

This is not a compelling argument to me. You could interpret this data as: the elite athletes who made it to old age did not use steroids, thus their healthy lifestyle lead to a prolonged lifespan. The steroid users could hqve just died by then. This data alone is extremely ambiguous.

[@kkyyee]

yeah this is some weak copium

[@buoynscom]

3:00 explains a lot. There are cardiovascular problems (apart from the alleged suicide rate skewing data upwards) which is indicative of PED use. Then, however, there is a crossover. Raises more questions, like are these people still active? Do they take TRT? What dosages? Surely there is a drop off when the dosages are very high etc... anyway, interesting none the less.

[@NeutroniummAlchemist]

Another interpretation is that the same drugs affect different people differently, and those who made it to old age are more likely to be those for whom the effects were minor. Since they are all athletes, these survivors then continued to live longer.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

@@buoynscom heart disease is still the primary killer in the population at large. it's not really meaningful that it was the leading cause of death for those athletes. why wouldn't it be the leading cause?

[@gibbsm]

He said it was up to you how dangerous it is at the end, which is true. Some die at 27, and other's are in their late 70s.

[@darrendigiacomo6889]

Another interesting thing to consider is - especially “back in the day”, many high level athletes did NOT keep up with fitness and healthy habits AFTER their athletic career. Much less people worked out for health reasons back then and many of these top athletes associated working out with their professional sport and not something they really enjoyed doing otherwise - particularly for non bodybuilders. Many of them stopped working out after sport retirement and put on lots of unhealthy Bodyfat.

[@tabularasa820]

Anecdotally, I’m very close friends with an 89 year old man who has been taking testosterone since he was 60. He is one of the most healthy and active people I know over 65.

[@TV-xv1le]

There's a difference between taking testosterone and taking Test mixed with tren, anavar, clen then having to take a dozen other pills a day to counter the impacts.

[@tonymeazell7591]

Love this. It is clearly (as he indicates toward the end) a sort of "glass half full" dichotomy, where each viewer will see and focus on what he wants to hear. Glass half full: "See, steroid users don't have any worse outcomes than the general population! All the fearmongering is bogus!" Glass half empty: "Steroid use completely negates all the benefits of fitness. Despite having the 4 biggest health and life extension attributes (exercise, good nutrition, low bodyfat, no smoking), steroid users throw away all those gains and end up exactly where sedentary folks are" I tend toward the latter.

[@wowandrss]

well, based on your half empty glass, we definitely know which side you're biased to! Ha

[@GlacialScion]

"Steroids are as bad for you as exercise is good for you" sounds even worse than I would've expected, honestly.

[@itsmyboardwhotalk]

well the most important thing missed: how was the life perceived by those living it? hormons play a big role how we feel. the higher rate of suicides is quite likely connected to steroid abuse. it really can mess up your brain chemistry from depression to schizophrenia everything is possible. but on the other hand one therapy of depression can be hormon therapy - as I said earlier they play a big role how we feel; feelings are getting more intense, if one lives a good life and doesnt get mentally sick chances are that one has a lot of fun. living 70 years to the fullest. maybe ppl like the rock or john cena are doing things right in a way we dont even focus bc all our attention lies on the muscles and not how the ppl feel. that would be quite ironic...

[@tonymeazell7591]

@@itsmyboardwhotalk This is cope. Steroids literally cancel the benefits of diet and exercise...but we should ask how someone feels while taking them? And btw, this is one of the biggest misconception around TRT/PEDs: "it will help my depression/self esteem/anxiety etc" Baloney. The thing is, steroids--sex hormomes--are not psychotropic. You do not FEEL testosterone emotionally. Nobody with high T suddenly thinks, "I just got in a great mood--must have been my balls!" Can steroids/TRT influence some brain chemistry, through subtle downstream effects, such that the user could notice some uptick or downtick in mood? Absolutely. But here's the thing: if you have depression or anxiety or something, it would be far more direct; far more likely to be improved; and just make far more sense to actually, you know, directly treat that malady with psychotropic drugs or therapy than to ingest sex steroids randomly and hope that your life improves. The whole increased self-confidence/lowered anxiety "effect" from steroids is basically, Cope + Placebo Effect.

[@ChrisProtein]

Don't think it is quite this bad. They compared it to the general population of men - which includes plenty of exercisers as well as sedentary people. Just not elite athletes. If they were comparing it a group of non-exercisers with poor health habits and the results were the same that would be would be bad, but gen pop does not mean just unhealthy people. I would assume it includes the entire population, both healthy and non-healthy active and inactive, just not elite athletes. not sure exactly but would assume that it what gen pop refers to.

[@nelsonsuarez2720]

Great Video my dude! Would love to see one regarding normal levels of TRT.

[@nelsonsuarez2720]

Specifically regarding long time or decades use of trt to get normal levels. Say under 800

[@kayrol18]

@@nelsonsuarez2720 hundreds milion people all over the word do and live happy better quality life and wont die soon, i do it and im at +2500ng/dl from 250ml weekly, not everybody digest test same way. 800 is rooky numbers.

[@danielkanewske8473]

Those regression lines are interesting but they don't give any info on the distribution of the data sets.

[@yvyneath]

Guys. Did you notice that strange anti-steroid wave of videos in past couple of weeks? Larry Weels made a video about quitting steroids and his bodybuilding career, next Jeff Nippard released an essay featuring Dr. Mike and Derek MPMD. Will Tennyson made a survey on how bodybuilders view the consequences steroids will have on their health (with educational remarks by Derek MPMD, hinting that steroids are bad). Now we see Menno's video. What's going on? Is it some sort of a planned compaign among youtubers? Or maybe some company have an interest?

[@metaloutdoors8617]

I get you there man..... I think it's probably to not glorify steroid use as it seems to be increasing as more and more gym influencers are being more open and transparent about there use of the drugs and young people being native think if they do steroids they will turn out like these people who they idolise

[@vincentruben4365]

Hmm not really. Although it’s a good thing, because the trend seems to be a lot of young guys

[@ghostofmoredishesmorebitch1507]

Bc the Algo shoots it to the top

[@HSVIRK]

It would be interesting to see the data on non-steroid using elite athletes vs. the general population or non-steroid using elite athletes vs. the general population. I suspect being an elite athlete is the most likely cause of longer life expectancy, whether that's elite genetics, better body composition, greater activity, better diet - l'm sure it's an important determinant more so than steroids.

[@giorgiodepaolis3214]

There is no pro athlete who is not using peds which are all dangerous but being active is better regardless

[@litespeed7715]

The majority of the study is behind a paywall. Am I correct in that the Morrison article assumes that top athletes are using steroids? How can you make a comparison of steroid users to other populations without knowing who was taking steroids in the first place? I don't want to pay $25 to read the article (I'd like to see the methodology).

[@CrniWuk]

Another downside is that outside of "social media" and the "gym culture", no one will really give a fuck. Actually, most people will very likely think that you're crazy and give you strange looks if you're too muscular and big. One should consider that as well. Im nowhere near any "extreme" look I am just a bit leaner and work out 4 times per week and people often give me comments on how "big" I am which I find ridiculous. But it reminds me that 90% of people out there simply don't do any hypertrophy workouts and don't spend their time looking at professionals and great looking athletes. So even if you just do some weight training and eating a bit healthier you will already look better than the majority out there that never sets a foot in any gym. Only what 30% of the population do enough exercises anyway? And how many do it with the goal of building visible muscles and gaining mass? So even a natural body builder will stick out already. But as soon as things get really too far, a lot of people won't really appreciate it but rather reject it. Because it becomes uncanny at some point. People on roids are freaks and they will be treated like freaks, at least outside the gym culture. It really is not worth it.

[@cellP8]

spot on

[@neverbackdown1918]

Not to mention that most women don’t like the bodybuilder look anyway. Why is it that you never see women thirsting over guys like Sam Sulek or Ronnie Coleman? Because they look freaky and inhuman. But it’s because they look freaky that people watch them.

[@pawelkapica5363]

@Menno Are thgere Studies about the mental health in Steroid users? I heard somewhere that your risk for depression gets much higher once you stop using.

[@jonathanstarner3662]

Its not fun coming off of testosterone. the down time is the worse, and you need or should have a good support unit behind you to help recover.

[@menno.henselmans]

Yes, in particular if you come off without proper PCT and prior maintenance of testicular functioning. Some users also appear to lose it while on-cycle, but interestingly, most people don't have any significant mental effects vs placebo when they don't know they're on testosterone in studies.

[@pawelkapica5363]

@@menno.henselmans Thank you.

[@pawelkapica5363]

@@jonathanstarner3662 Definitely doesn't sound like something you want to go through just for looks.

[@jamesgraham446]

The whole steroid issue is mischaracterised...imo its a psychological question of why anyone other than elite athletes consider taking them? Body image, insecurities, self esteem?

[@jordixboy]

same question could be done to anything in life. Why people buy expensive cars? why people buy expensive clothets? why people buy expensive houses? to make the look rich even if they are poor. I take steroids (trt) for quality of life/doctor prescribed.

[@jamesgraham446]

@@jordixboy I think your reason is well within the bounds of reasonableness. I was coming from the point of people blasting to get big and then work to 9-5 at a desk.

[@youokaybuddyfitness]

Why do anything?

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Probably the same psychology as cosmetic surgery.

[@user-nh9xv8tm9d]

young people that don't realize how fragile the human body actually is. No concept of the future and how we all grow old and will die. I mean, I can't even count how many times I hear people say bettter to live it up from age 20-40 than to never achieve a great body. As a 43 year old I can say, 40 is still young and I am glad I never did them.

[@amarug]

Also, think of the societal impact. If you take steroids you may reach physiques that are not attainable otherwise, and you are one more gear in the mechanism to elevate the body standards to unreachable levels, causing stress, dysmorphia, and even more steroid use among others. There are so many vicious cycles baked into and around steroids, it's crazy.

[@bytefu]

Mental health is the underlying cause of all that. Doctors have been saying for decades that it is a big problem that gets disproportionately little attention compared to many other parts of medicine.

[@Jotun184]

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of the steroid using elite athletes to similarly athletic people with optimal nutrition who didn't use steroids. Especially since most comments here are misinterpreting this as 'go ahead and abuse steroids because it's not that bad' (even though he specifically said this is not the case) lol

[@dfdf4874]

Bodybuilders are competitive eaters with body dysmorphia. Let's not conflate them with elite athletes.

[@janisarbidans8931]

They are elite athletes in the sense that to do what they are able to do with their bodies it requires same genetic traits as elite athletes just cranked to 11. Almost all of them have sports background ,all have great genetics. Training itself and posing is very hard to do,i can bet my marbles you wouldnt be able to pose the same way pro bodybuilder can. I honestly dislike this take because it makes it seem like bodybuilders are dumb idiots with mental illness and drug addiction and that activity itself can be done by anyone.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

You are commenting on motivation, not the level and/or type of sport. I don't actually disagree with what you're saying, it's just not very relevant.

[@hackernoob1349]

going by ur picture, you're probably a competitive eater too... with body dysmorphia

[@BigUriel]

Bodybuilders exercise a lot, for medical research purposes they are indistinguishable from athletes. The only real difference is what they do doesn't have a skill component.

[@wowandrss]

Way to downplay all of their hard work, determination, effort, consistency and devotion. As if those traits are meaningless when you pick any other subject.

[@CaptainBritain1973]

Taking steroids/ped's is playing Russian roulette with your health and life. Until you start taking them you won't know what side effects you will suffer from. And in the end no matter how long you take them for you are doing harm to your body. Is it really worth the risk? You can still build a physique to be proud of without taking them!

[@pogo55555]

Evidence-based, unbiased fitness content. You said it Menno.

[@david_dares]

Menno, this is a somewhat random question, but I’m curious - how old are you? Love the content.

[@rando9574]

he is just 19 years old !

[@gricius]

I've read some anecdotal evidence that suicides were a major issue even in young people in the 60s and 70s due to them taking steroids and then not being able to deal with the psychological downside of stopping them, especially given how little research was yet known about the side effects of steroids.

[@utubebrowseupload]

Would love to see you do more content on enhancement/PEDs and its good and bad and how it can impact everything training and nutrition, health and everything. Perhaps what you have seen anecdotally lead to good and bad outcomes. Trying to learn as much as possible.

[@zulutangoxray]

"Morrison goes as far as to argue that most early deaths from steroid are is due to the abuse of steroids and the use of black market compounds." Since every steroid using gym bro I've known over the years in dozens of gym I've belonged to all over the world in military and civilian life has used steroids without a prescription (abuse) and gotten them from the black market, I can reasonably conclude that over 99% of steroid using gym bros are at danger of shortening their lives and this video is moot. The author of the first study Menno cited agrees about the definition of abuse: "There is evidence that misuse of PEDs, often obtained from the black market, without medical guidance or intervention contributes to morbidity and mortality in recreational athletes, but this pattern is not evident in elite athletes" The second and third studies were also regarding elite athletes using them under supervision. The video concludes with Menno asking "how bad exactly is steroid use" rather than "how bad exactly is steroid use for elite athletes not using black market steroids." Also, Menno brings up that athletes are much more likely to be lifelong non-smokers and live much healthier lives. Taking great care of yourself (other than taking medical grade steroids under supervision during times of competing) and living as long as the general population doesn't sound as great as the video makes it seem. After saying that steroids enlarge the heart, he says "so it makes sense that their mortality rate is indeed higher when using them." That enlargement doesn't go away. The heart enlarging, especially the left ventricle, is a mortality risk for life and one always lives with risks of shortness of breath, chest pain, dizziness, fatigue, heart attack and stroke. Kinda worth mentioning. In the study linked to below, steroid users and non-steroid users were compared for 12 years. Conclusion: Androgenic anabolic steroid users have an increased risk of dying and significantly more hospital admissions than their nonuser peers. Side effects of AAS and their metabolites were highly prevalent. Given the high rate of androgenic anabolic steroid abuse, these side effects are of public health concern. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30460728/

[@nessingman]

An active lifestyle without the use of PEDs will always be healthier. There is no point in using them accept maybe slightly raise your low self esteem

[@Bubblegoose9000]

This is interesting- I do think that there is something to be said here (a life of athletics and healthy living can counterbalance modest steroid use, on the long average), but there is also a major caveat to this, as Menno mentions: looking at PED use as a 'yes vs no' category for study design is a major oversimplification. This is not a perfect analogy, but look at recreational drugs: considering someone who dabbles in cannabis, and someone who has had their life deranged by methamphetamine, both as 'drug users' for the purposes of a study, is not going to give you a very useful picture of the effects of 'drug' use. We're looking at very broad averages. Likewise with PEDs (I missed it if this study includes non-androgenic doping)- whether and how much these will negatively impact your health has everything to do with the 'what' and the 'how.'

[@TheGreektrojan]

Interesting data thats roughly in line with casual/'common' wisdom (limitations on both noted). For me, I'm not interested from a pragmatic sense. As someone whos not a competitive athlete, the benefits of steroids are borderline negligible in terms of life outcomes and the downsides are numerous. I have no moral issues with their usage but I think most recreational lifters are chasing something that really doesn't exist (that their super muscluar body will deliver them romantic and social success/satisfaction that they otherwise wouldn't/couldn't get) and paying real costs for chasing the dream. In that sense, I guess I'm ethically against casual PED use.

[@jordixboy]

i use testosterone for quality of life improvements, not being muscular.

[@CrniWuk]

Another downside is that outside of "social media" no one will really give a fuck. Actually, most people will very likely think that you're crazy and give you strange looks if you're too muscular and big. Im nowhere near any "extreme" look I am just a bit leaner and work out 4 times per week and people often give me comments on how "big" I am, which reminds me that 90% of people out there simply don't do any hypertrophy workouts. So even if you just do some kind of weigh training, you will already look better than the majority. But as soon as things get really to far, a lot of people won't really appreciate it but rather reject it. People on roids are freaks and they will be treated like freaks, at least outside the gym culture. It really is not worth it.

[@austinb3560]

Thanks for the biased information I appreciate you reaffirming my personal beliefs

[@JK-wg2ud]

Very good information! While I doubt the data is available, I'm curious to know Menno's opinion on the line between Use and Abuse. -Would typical TRT doses(

[@jordixboy]

trt doses can go up to 250 - depending on your androgen receptors.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

I think to qualify as 'abuse', there has to be a preponderance of harm, as in using it must be more harmful than not using it. Is medical TRT harmful? TRT+?

[@elibusz]

I'm more worried about the psychological factor. If I start using steroids for a year or two and then I stop, 'cause health, what's my motivation for going to the gym?

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

You can still make gains, it's just slower. You probably already understand that, though, so maybe I'm missing something. My own goal is just to get to around 85-90% of my ceiling, then drop volume to maintenance permanently. I don't particularly dislike the gym, but I'll be glad to use that time for other things.

[@soonahero]

So you don’t die as fast from being an abuser?

[@gibbsm]

Steroids will make you anxious and paranoid too, so why worry?

[@rando9574]

@@user-fn1cd6mo9z ill just do a little heroin and I can quit whenever i want

[@madtitan9639]

What are the health benefits and consequences of HRT as testosterone drops due to aging? Net benefit or negative? It seems like the only people talking about this are sellers.

[@gibbsm]

TRT is steroids, it's just at a dose that puts you in the 'natural' test range (300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL). Doses above 1,000 (ng/dL) is a different use case, and is not health based but muscle size based..

[@drewgrows7765]

Im 60, been doing TRT topical creme for years. Your doctor will test your levels to adjust doage. Generally safe

[@tommyiaq]

I would love to see the points from which that line chart was generated...

[@hunzilla52]

I find this video to be irresponsible and ironic considering what was said to Greg. You should be more clear about the nuances of this study and why its essentially useless. You cant say Greg is looking for clout while you are simultaneously sitting there with Mikes meat in your mouth pretending you aren't using his fame yourself. At least Greg is honest about the dangers and doesn't sugar coat these things. Downplaying the dangers of PEDS for the sake of Mike, is exactly how you put it. "Low even by social media standards".

[@mrmacguffin6886]

Great content as always! Would be nice if there were fewer cuts, even if it increased the length.

[@AD86ARRRR]

Ma man, Greg Doucette is making videos about you, congratulations you made it. You’ll have 100k subscribers soon. Love the content!

[@chaco883]

Just curious if the study took into account the superior medical care elite athletes receive compared to the general public?

[@youokaybuddyfitness]

Stay natty bros ...or get huge

[@gibbsm]

Fuck being huge, can't move, can't breath, have to buy silly ass clothes. All show and no go.

[@timurtairov5982]

Why does Menno compare incomparable things? General population, which, in most cases, does not live that healthy life as athletes do can not be compared to those athletes. Should compare only those doing sports and other physical activities without steroids to those athletes who use pharma.

[@benh6452]

The shit 100 percent changes you, the same as any drug

[@SriranjanSeshadri]

Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence

[@frankiechan9651]

I'm still not sure what to make of this to be honest. Old data that kind of says that if you happened to be an elite athlete that cycled low dose (compared to today) and don't pass away prematurely from CVD or self-inflicted means then you may live a few years longer than the general population. No mention of other health issues that may or may not have plagued them through their lives either. Now compare that to the list of modern bodybuilders who have gone very early, suffer mental issues and many other health complaints on doses that are noted to be way higher. Guess we may know more in another 50 years.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Yeah, it's an interesting piece of the puzzle, definitely not a complete picture.

[@giorgiodepaolis3214]

Tbh bb take much more than most athletes

[@IronWarrior86]

Use and possession of steroids were criminalized in Sweden in 1992, so not the first country.

[@nicolasguereca8337]

ok ima continue abusing tren

[@adrian-4767]

⚰⚰⚰⚰

[@gustaafvanaerden7344]

Dag Menno ,denk je dat Kevin Richardson natural is en wat denk je van zijn trainingsmethode?

[@Jimmyvdpost]

If you're young and watching this, and thinking about using steroids. PLEASE reconsider! Workout to be health and look good natural is worth so much more!

[@jordixboy]

im on trt at 29, best decision of my life, had low levels of T.

[@BluegillGreg]

@jordixboy You don't know that. At 29 I'd been suffering with problems since 15, and begun non-drug treatments at 25. I never did compromise my endocrine system with hormonal drugs, and I'm good. It may turn out that giving your testosterone production over to a drug company was a good decision, and it may not. Time will tell.

[@jordixboy]

@@BluegillGreg funny, do you think the same about people who need insulin? I mean, I did everything in my hands before jumping on TRT, like years of doing things well. Not sure why people have this stigma with testosterone, insulin is a lot worse and people (normal people) abuse it a lot, cause they are so fucking lazy and can't eat well, ahh but im bad for using testosterone to fix my quality of life, how dare you! People smoke, drink, take drugs, alcohol (which BTW is a lot worse than using testosterone) and yet no one raises an eyebrow

[@jordixboy]

And btw, I can come off any time, I've been taking hcg alongside to avoid any damage or making my balls lazy, so I can come off with minimal to 0 "loosing of my original testosterone", but anyway, my T was low.

[@jordixboy]

Come off of the "high horse" of "drug free". I bet if your mom or dad need insulin, a drug worse and more dangerous - which is widely more abused you wont tell them that...

[@Adumah77]

Does this include using only test, because i doubt

[@gymstarjb-pp5fj]

So the study didnt even acknowledge who took steroids and who didnt 😆

[@iblisthemage]

“AAS are bad for you”. TRT is also AAS, and the two studies on TRT found that the participants either had no change or a better life expectancy (lowered all cause mortality). We are not build to last beyond 40-50ish. Fixing lack of AAS has not only cascading effects on health and life, but they also make life worth living.

[@jyendurance]

My grandpa is nearing 100. I'mma stay natty and live to 110

[@timothym2241]

Very interesting. The predominant steroids used in the 60’s and 70’s were dbol, primo, winstrol and nandrolone. Now its test esters and tren plus the formers.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

Is there any serious user not also using HGH? I'd say that's probably #2 after test. What about anavar? Definitely #1 with the ladies, probably with guys looking for low risk, along with primo. I don't really know, though, I'm just a skinny natty.

[@emmang2010]

Thank you Meno for your work and time.

[@ie4w1n_m14]

What about life time natural athletes vs enhanced?

[@sirsimon3806]

Natural live longer and bettere quality of life yeah

[@gibbsm]

How enhanced, and how healthy are the natural? There are tons of factors.

[@DanDannyDanielleBob]

The prospect of living longer has changed my mind

[@MS-uu8xg]

“Steroids” : very very broad term

[@bushrglobalists8742]

The graph would be better to compare athletes that do not dope compared to those who do. Otherwise, what is shown is that Steroids actually offset all the benefits of nutrition, exercise and social benefits you get from being an athlete... IE a superhuman athlete but a pedestrian when it comes to longevity. Also, do not underestimate what steroids do to your brain. I would be willing to bet a vast majority of CTE football players also roided up.

[@LambClone]

So basically just exercise and eat well and you'll outlive not only the general population and your siblings but also athletes using PED's. Now the problem with these studies is that they are not looking at data from modern era bodybuilders, who are dying at an alarming rate and age, premature deaths from bodybuilding were very rare in the 70s, quite rare in the 80s, and then exploded in the modern era.

[@m.j.5681]

Bottom line: fuck steroids

[@albertalbert7958]

There is no clear evidence that they were using steroids, nor did they know which steroid nor how much was used. Also compared them to the general population instead of comparing them to natural athletes. Very solid study.

[@sztigirigi]

I think you read the graph in a wrong way. I think that the first part where these people were relatively young they were dying because of cardiovascular problems. And they had shorter lives than general population. The second part where athletes seemed to have longer lives, these were already stronger individuals that outlived the heart and other cardiovascular problems. So by the ways of elimination only the stronger survived. So it is logical they lived longer.

[@Steven-jn2cw]

Mild TRT makes you live longer

[@stevewise1656]

Steroid use also causes depression, so the Swedish study didn't seem to take that into account in relation to those suicides.

[@kellyhoesing2573]

Live fast, die young, leave a gigantic body

[@seattlegrrlie]

Drugs (all of them) in the 80s and 90s were less potent and cleaner. You were more likely to get exactly what you were looking for as long as you paid decent money for it. The problem isn't necessarily with doing steroids, or cocaine, it's that it came out of China and might be something else entirely

[@agustinreyes6111]

I look at Arnold and Jay Cutler and one thing they always mention is that they would get off cycle and I think that is key. Not PCT or cruise, they would simply tapper down and discontinue use until the next time. I remember my first cycle my blood marker got all messed up (high cholesterol, high blood pressure and high hemoglobin) because I started too heavy. Next cycle I started slow and slowly increased the dose and added additional compounds and kept it to a 12 week cycle and my blood markers were in the perfect reference range with all the benefits of the gear.

[@hanskazan7403]

coming of is just stupid youre gonna lose most of the gains, blast and cruise or stay natty

[@agustinreyes6111]

@@hanskazan7403 I’ve kept most of my gains, the only think that is noticeable is the fat increase around my waist but weight stays about the same.

[@giorgiodepaolis3214]

​@@hanskazan7403 you're right but what do you think is the best way of cruising? Just low dosing test?

[@Magneticlaw]

In Sweden they can actually arrest and drug test you just for "looking like a bodybuilder." Hence, bodybuilding shows are never held in Sweden.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

That's...crazy. Recreational steroid use is also illegal in the U.S., but you'd NEVER see something like that. There's so many more important things that cops have to worry about policing. Does Sweden have no real crime for the police to worry about?🤨

[@Jaburu]

That's not quite accurate. In Sweden, there are anti-doping regulations, but they don't involve arresting or testing people based solely on appearance. Here's a breakdown: Drug Testing: Sweden's National Anti-Doping Agency can conduct doping controls, but only on athletes affiliated with sports associations recognized by the Swedish Sports Confederation. Regular gym-goers wouldn't be subject to such tests. Focus on Prevention: The emphasis in Sweden is more on deterring drug use through education and potential consequences for athletes who test positive. So, while Sweden takes anti-doping seriously, they don't engage in random testing based on physique.

[@soonahero]

@@user-fn1cd6mo9zthat’s because our cops are on the juice too. If I had to police these monsters, I’d find a cool doctor too

[@gibbsm]

Sweden sounds really nice, but also super fuggin lame at the same time.

[@ottokis308]

Must be true. Thats why Rich P is still living today.

[@Parmaitë]

fantastic content --- appreciate how concise it is

[@jordixboy]

i use testosterone for quality of life improvements, trt, had low t at 29

[@sirsimon3806]

If you have hypogonadal levels it's one thing to use them in sports, friend

[@jordixboy]

@@sirsimon3806 i mean nothing wrong doing sports with trt... I do trt.

[@user-fn1cd6mo9z]

I don't think medical TRT should be considered steroid use. To me, it means clearly superphysiological testosterone injection, AAS compounds, and SARMs. I probably wouldn't include stuff like cardarine or stenabol, either.

[@gibbsm]

@@user-fn1cd6mo9z It literally is, if you know what you're talking about. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid, hate to break it to you.The dose is the only difference, so...

[@user-oq6sc1qm4j]

Why dont you do a video about how many years process foods and alchohol take off your life since this is socially accepted and some of the people who say roids are bad for you are stuffing themselves with bad food.

[@user-oq6sc1qm4j]

@@Dnzjsjdk Around 273k people die each year from drunk driving yet you think alcohol is ok and roids are bad just goes to show how screwed up your thinking is.

[@tristanwegner]

Additional point. Besides Train and Steroid effects on longevity, getting into sports selects for healthy people in the first place. So the general populations is expected to die earlier on average just from that. So steroid use is as bad as doing not fitness AND having " just" average genes.

[@L3ON360Z]

Jeff Nippard and Mike Israetel nailed it

[@Brandzaman39]

Have you ever used steroids?

[@eddysanremo2461]

Meanwhile... John Meadows, Joe Linder, Shawn Rhoden and the list goes on and on... What is this bullshit? Put chances on your side, stay natural.

[@tyrawr4394]

So a person with elite genetics, elite workout, and elite nutrition that takes steroids can be as healthy as the average guy that doesn't have all those elite advantages working for them? Wow, steroids must be healthy, we shouldn't compare elite athletes on PEDs vs. elite athletes without PEDs, because giving both variables no advantage over the other is totally biased.

[@n00dle_king]

Interesting studies but there are far too many confounding variables to make an informed choice about gear. The biggest one that sticks out is the extremely blackpilled assumption that all elite athletes were on gear. Even if only a minority of elite athletes were clean their theoretically superior mortality rates could make the mortality rates of steroid users look far better.

[@sethnesmith6091]

This analysis is flawed on many parts please read the comments. But has good potential

[@salciano]

Are there studies comparing steroids to non-steroids only in athletes?

[@menno.henselmans]

No, very scarce long-term data. The steroid using athletes will certainly be unhealthier than the natty ones though.

[@salciano]

Thanks :) How about among non-athletes only? Sounds silly, I know.

[@jeanpaulkassdale]

@@menno.henselmans By what markers do you consider them unhealthier ?

[@radoslavvarga4102]

Thank you i always talked about it with my friend...if you have two scenarios one is taking light dosages and eat properly and exercise or be couch potato and eating chips....the first option is probably better :))

[@bigbadamba7179]

Average live, food, chicks VS elite?!!! I better live 50 years as a king

[@Nuggets0330]

What about quality of life & chronic conditions? Life span is a terrible metric on its own.

[@helios4425]

This video is highly irresponsibility. Hate to say Geeg doucette is right but he is. You cant compare elite athletes, which we have no history of their PED use, most often in short time and dose vs the average person. If you wanna see what steriods do, look at body building.

[@FerintoshFarmsPhotography]

So you're saying I can fulfill my dream of having 18 inch arms as long as I eat my vegetables? I guess that makes sense. A lot of those old school body-builders/actors are still around, like Arnie for example, even Stallone with the amount he takes is still quite healthy, Carl Weathers only recently passed as well.

[@youokaybuddyfitness]

Good point although arnold had a life saving surgery. Some people would rather have gains now than worry about life at 80 and I get it bro

[@Yeahhoee]

the question is who cares for your 18 inch bizeps though? Not your family or the people loving you. in general young guys decide at a young age of 20 they hop on gear not considering that in 10 years their lifes could completely change and an 18 inch arm isnt something they even care about anymore

[@youokaybuddyfitness]

@@Yeahhoee who cares about anything anyone does? People can have their own goals

[@Yeahhoee]

@@youokaybuddyfitness a 20 year old boy doesnt know what he wants yet that what i was trying to tell ;)

[@chocoborider87]

​@@youokaybuddyfitness to be fair, his issue was congenital and was present before he even took steroids in then first place. He knew he would need at least one surgery at some point.

[@doqille]

Nobidy talks about other side effect of bulking on juice, that even if you stop juicing your average caloric load is so high, you simply go fat. Go see American Football team trainers (Football players in past), most of them are obese.

[@ozziejim8472]

Fascinating, abuse of anything is a problem

[@chrisburns4297]

Most of the retired elite athletes that I know here in Poland are rather keen on the bottle. Maybe it's a cultural thing or maybe it's about replacing one addiction (sport) with another (booze)

[@Review-rj9lq]

After they retired in their 50s they died less often than vanilla s in their 60s loll

[@antdgar]

Cheers, taking tren tomorrow!

[@iz7347]

Maybe good genetics for sports are also associated with longer life?

[@cio1789]

I think the most dangerous side effect is mental one. I got some problems with anger issues and I'm natural if I was on steroids i would be in prison now :D

[@TommyfitRoi]

Really insightful as always

[@paulo6069]

Of course exercise and an active lifestyle are a panacea that the general population largely doesn't benefit from compared to the average steroid user. This unfortunately doesn't answer the question of how many years steroid use cuts off from an athlete's life compared to if he or she had stayed natural.

[@dmizzle73]

I was pretty disappointed by this video because it applies flawed logic. Using the general population as a control is not as effective as the current perceived ideal: comparable healthy lifestyle (nutrition, sleep etc.) and lifelong resistance training. Overall, strength is associated with longevity and we should assume that the strength built up by the elite lifters puts them at considerable advantage in this regard. This could even account for the differences between brothers and sisters also mentioned. In Mennos defence this data/research may not be available (and I don't have an association with an academic institution to try and find it myself). He makes a good point that this research is not representative of current common methods of use which are likely to be more damaging but it'll take years possibly decades for this to become clear.

[@Jhumanghjngg]

No testo discount code ? :(

[@BakiWho]

so nutrition and exercise is key and little bit of steroids is ok??

[@gibbsm]

pretty much. TRT is 'low dose' steroids.

[@lollo_pap]

I'd have liked this more if it was a bit longer