This Is How to Make a Case for the Bible with an Agnostic

Greg Koukl describes two kinds of atheists and gives suggestions on what Columbo questions to ask them, then he explains how to make a case to an agnostic that the Bible is accurate.
#StandtoReason #Apologetics #Christianity #Worldviews #TheBible
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[@Monkeydfitzy]

Where you at all able to watch genetically Modified skeptics video about your course?

[@STRvideos]

We're aware of it and other response videos.

[@theunholinesswithin70]

He hasn't clicked on *my* video response.

[@theunholinesswithin70]

@@STRvideos Did he ask if you're aware of them?

[@moracehann5857]

Where can I find the vid?

[@startuphub4097]

Fact is, there's nothing else given among men that comes remotely close to what Christianity and the Scriptures holds out to us as a coherent, consistent, and compelling life-affirming theology and epistemology that changes our lives. All other ground is sinking sand- and I've tried to stand on those places and experienced it. If a person is tired of the sinking feeling they're getting further and further lost in life, Jesus is waiting right behind them with open arms. The options are not as diverse and complicated as they may seem.

[@mnptm]

mr Koukl is setting you up to look like a fool because he is arguing a strawman position; [i have never heard anyone say a god is impossible] i think he does so because he desperately avoids burden; an atheist will simply say, "i lack belief in god, because the evidence for its existence is weak"; an agnostic acknowledges that, because theists argue that got exists beyond space time, how could one know of its existence one way or the other? either way, it is the burden of the theist to present evidence; mr koukl is a master at the strawman setup

[@mnptm]

look how silly mr Koukl's textual argument is; in the gospel jesus claims to be god; if jesus were resurrected, would that be proof that he is god? oh look! at the end of the gospel it says jesus was resurrected; all that mr Koukl has demonstrated is the story

[@mrshmanckles1463]

Before anyone can "educate" someone they must first be seen as an educator or teacher. For instance, faith in a man to do surgery must first be seen and believed to be a doctor specifically a surgeon. Same goes when you witness to someone, that person must see you as set apart from regular worldly people. Are you preacher, pastor, leader, man of the cloth or some kind of very respectable family man who helps the needy are all examples. It helps for sure.

[@paulcooper1223]

I don't class preachers or pastors or priests as respectable, given the history of them molesting children. They're self-appointed authorities, they have no qualifications or experience to fall back on as you'd get with a surgeon or a teacher or a doctor. They can't produce any evidence for a god anymore than you can.

[@John3.36]

The view of the text has caused so many issues within Christianity it seems. We have somehow bought into the idea that there are essential and non-essential texts, which has led to the questioning of Genesis as well as the allowance of modernist Christianity. Once we can pick what is essential and what is not we can make our own religion. All texts are essential. In reality, the Bible itself is perfectly preserved and infallible. The Greek (TR) and Hebrew (Masoretic Text) are Gods word. God has promised to preserve his word throughout all generations. The English KJV is the best we have for English speakers. Each word can be trusted. However, when we move over into the Critical Text view, then we as humans can question the scriptures, decide which 'translation' is best and continually modify the word with whatever meaning we want.

[@Bill_Garthright]

It's not possible to "know," if you mean that you couldn't possibly be mistaken - not just about gods, but about _anything_ in the real world. You're not infallible. I'm not infallible. We could always be wrong. You can _believe,_ of course. You can even have good reasons for believing. But it's always possible to be wrong. Now, I don't really care how you define the labels you call _yourself._ The label isn't the important thing. I call myself an agnostic atheist, because I don't _believe_ in a god or gods, but I don't claim to _know_ that gods don't exist. But again, the label isn't the important thing. When it comes to the Bible, books aren't all accurate or all inaccurate. After all, to the extent that we can "know" anything (again, not to the extent that we couldn't be wrong), we know that some things in the Bible are inaccurate. That doesn't make the whole thing inaccurate, and I don't believe that anyone would ever claim otherwise. _"what is it that's keeping you on the fence"_ See, _that's_ the wrong idea about agnosticism for most agnostics, I'd say. So it's good that you started out by saying that there were other meanings. After all, I'm agnostic, but I'm certainly *not* on the fence. I do not believe in a god - _any_ god - because I've never seen/heard even *one* piece of good evidence that a god is real, rather than just imaginary. I find it hard to even take gods _seriously,_ without evidence. Again, that makes me an atheist, but I'm still an agnostic (by my definition of those labels, at least). _"why is it that no one can know?"_ It's because there's _always_ an alternative explanation that we can't rule out. Again, I don't just mean about gods, but about _anything_ in the real world. Proof isn't possible in the real world, not such that we couldn't possibly be wrong. "Proofs" are for artificial systems of logic or mathematics. Now, maybe that's being overly precise, overly technical. But if you're not going to be precise, what good is this kind of discussion in the first place? _"There are parts of scripture that are really more vital than others"_ And do you have *one piece of good evidence* that even *one* of those parts is actually _true?_ _"Would you say it's fair to conclude, based on what these men said, that Jesus claims were claims to divinity?"_ Of course not. It's fair to conclude that the _story_ says that, but stories aren't always true. And as far as I can tell, we have nothing from Jesus himself and nothing from anyone who'd ever _met_ Jesus. All we've got are stories from anonymous authors written long afterwards. We really don't know _what_ he might have said. _"Now the question is whether he's right."_ No, the question is still whether or not Jesus actually _said_ that. After all, that's just a story from an anonymous author who doesn't claim to have ever _met_ Jesus. Now, true, whether Jesus said it or not, the important thing is whether or not it's actually true. But, again, I'm just trying to be precise here. _"Do we have any good evidence that he rose from the dead."_ No, not as far as I know - nothing distinguishable from delusion and wishful-thinking. In fact, we've got much _better_ evidence that Elvis Presley rose from the dead - still not _good_ evidence, of course (far from it), but lots better than for Jesus. _"Let's start with something specific."_ Now, I _do_ agree with you about that, and I'm very glad to hear it. I talk to Christians and Muslims alike, and all I ever hear are vague claims. When I try to get them to be _specific,_ to present just *one* example of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself, that's always the point where they don't want to talk anymore. _"The universe had a beginning. Either something started it or nothing started it."_ No, I don't think that's true. We don't actually know if the universe had a beginning, because our physical models don't go back that far. You could probably say that about the so-called "Big Bang," though. I'm not a cosmologist, so I don't know very much about that. But either way, "something" is a long, long, _long_ way from a "god" - _any_ god, let alone a particular one. _"We could be mistaken"_ OK. I'm glad to hear you say that, too. But,... how do you define "knowing," then? If you were mistaken, you didn't actually "know" the truth, right? How can you be mistaken and still be said to "know" what you were wrong about? To me, that's impossible. Now, sure, in casual conversation we might all claim to "know" stuff without claiming that we're infallible. But should we really be that casual _here?_ What's the point of even discussing "knowing," if we're not going to be precise? So, _that_ might be the problem here. When an agnostic says that it's impossible to "know," that agnostic probably assumes that you can't really "know" something if you're wrong. And it's _always_ possible to be wrong, no matter how much evidence we have. _I_ certainly assume that. If you think that you _can_ be wrong, and still consider it to be "knowing," then that's probably why you're confused by this, don't you think? You might just be talking past those agnostics.

[@John3.36]

Your response is so orderly and detailed. How do you explain such a precise thing as the physical brain, immaterial thought, coordination of the senses, etc -- all working together to make a response such as the one you made. This does not at all indicate a chaotic universe that ordered itself randomly by chance. That requires great faith!

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@John3.36 _Your response is so orderly and detailed._ Thank-you. But why didn't you reply to what I said, then? I asked for *one piece of good evidence.* Just *one,* specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself. _How do you explain such a precise thing as the physical brain, immaterial thought, coordination of the senses, etc -- all working together to make a response such as the one you made._ Why do I _have_ to explain it? I've made no claims about any of that. The fact is, I don't know much about it, and I try not to make claims about stuff I don't know much about. If you think that _you_ can explain it, then by all means, go right ahead. But I _will_ ask you for evidence, you know. If you don't have even *one* piece of good evidence backing up your explanation - whatever it is - then why should I even take it seriously? Sorry, but that's just an argument from ignorance, a known logical fallacy. It's like saying, "Scientists don't know what the Sun is - or I don't _believe_ what they say about the Sun - therefore it _has_ to be Jesus driving a golden chariot across the sky." But no, it doesn't. Your explanation doesn't _have_ to be true, whether the rest of us have a good explanation or not. _This does not at all indicate a chaotic universe that ordered itself randomly by chance._ Maybe. But so what? That's not what I believe. That's not what _anyone_ believes, as far as I can tell. "Unplanned" doesn't mean "random," let alone "chaotic." And I didn't even _claim_ "unplanned"! I've made no claim about _any_ of that. However, I _will_ say that, if you think it was planned, how about *one piece of good evidence* backing that up? And then, assuming you could do that (and we both recognize that you can't, right?), I'd probably ask you who planned your planner, since a magical planner who could do all of that deliberately _also_ does not indicate "a chaotic universe that ordered itself randomly by chance." _By your _*_own_*_ argument,_ your god would also need a god, apparently. _That requires great faith!_ Nope. Only if I believed that. Only if I _said_ that. Besides, what's with the faith-based who seem to _recognize_ that faith is a terrible way to distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking, but cling to it, anyway? I really don't get that. It would be like _me_ accusing _you_ of having "great evidence," and meaning that to be a negative thing. Heh, heh. Look, I'm not trying to be insulting here. But if you believe in a god - let alone a _specific_ god - why is it too much to ask for *one piece of good evidence* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary. Worldwide, faith-based people _overwhelmingly_ believe in whatever religion and whatever god or gods they were taught to believe as children. It's not even _close._ There's a reason why 83% of Italians are Christian, while 90% of Egyptians are Muslim and 80% of Indians are Hindu - and it's not just coincidence! Obviously, that's a terrible way to distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. I mean, it's _obvious_ that it doesn't work. But _all_ religions seem to be based on wishful-thinking, as far as I can tell. Don't you guys _care_ if your beliefs are true or not? But if you've got anything - anything _at all_ - then I'd love to hear *one piece of good evidence* - just *one example,* specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself. PS. It's up to you, but KZbin isn't very reliable. So if you prefer to talk by email, just go to my KZbin channel. Under the "About" tab is a link to a contact page where you can get my email address. Again, your choice.

[@John3.36]

@@Bill_Garthright lot of denial as well as redirection, you would make for a good lawyer. :)

[@Bill_Garthright]

@@John3.36 _you would make for a good lawyer._ Thanks. I don't know _what_ you'd be good at. What's a job where you just ignore anything you want? Oh, yeah, Christian apologist, huh? :) Again, send me an email if you ever come up with even *one* piece of good evidence that your religious beliefs are actually _true._ I'm not going to hold my breath, since you're clearly not willing to even _try_ (for obvious reasons, huh?). But who knows? The offer is still open - for anyone here, not just you.

[@dagwould]

So you can't know this is an adequate position. You might be mistaken.