This Is The REAL Problem With Dragon Age: The Veilguard's Dialogue

[@m3divh]

One issue is the story tries to put you on a pedestal, exaggerating the power you actually have. In other dialogues, the writing tries to portray you as the underdog. If you were playing as the inquisitor with the backing of an army, then your decisions would make great sense. But as it stands, you are just some guy, and yet the game is desperately trying to convince you that by joining one side, you hurt the other drastically. The writing constantly contradicts you own abilities.

[@f.b.8700]

Wow good point!

[@emismpunk]

That was my biggest issue with the treviso or minrathous choice. I don’t necessarily hate that type of decision. It just feels like it was implemented way too early in the story. Creating a very odd narrative. Rook is…kinda a nobody at that point. The most people really know about them, is that they failed to stop Solas properly and ended up releasing blighted gods. At this point (In the eyes of everyday npcs), Rook should be coming across as crazy or untrustworthy/unreliable. Not the person I would risk my entire cities wellbeing on. You could argue that saving Lucanis or helping Neve against the magistrate’s son might have earned them a reputation. But it still doesn’t feel noteworthy enough. Plus it feels like those two things would’ve been kept under wraps. Known only to the specific faction or venatori. Not street gossip that everybody and their mother knows. Either way, Rook still doesn’t feel like they’ve earned that level of trust or reverence at this point. It would be one thing if Rook had already been in one of the cities and proved to be help against the attack. But it’s another to put such a huge decision on them so soon and out of the blue. It throws you for a loop, because Rook is just sorta this rando that’s now being treated like a fabled hero or a villain that sold out the other city deliberately. -Gameplay wise you barely have any of the factions even to one star (unless you’ve been absolutely dumping all your items into one faction or glitches). -They have no army. It’s just them and three others, plus a new companion they literally just got. -Rook doesn’t feel like they’ve done anything that is truly meaningful or impactful at this point. to warrant such a decision landing squarely on their shoulders. The Warden and Rook have similar situations and circumstances, but how they’re handled is wildly different.

[@myaaa5932]

"it softens the sharpness of its characters to prevent conflict from going to far" perfectly encapsulates how i felt about the dialogue and interactions with companions. in DA origins, you had morrigan and leliana/alistar cat-fighting, in DA2 you had Anders making jabs at Aveline's late husband, and in DAI no one really trusted each other. i liked that! it made the party feel more alive, it felt like companions had their own goals and history. the game is beautiful and the environments are definitely a step up from previous installments, plus character designs are great. but this game also does a lot of showing-- there is no subtlety at all in the writing, like why do i need harding and neve to tell me the same exact thing i just heard/read 5 seconds ago?

[@TheBlooMoose]

Yeah Lucanis and Davrin have a brief, gentle argument and then it has to be IMMEDIATELY resolved, and that’s as much conflict as we get within the group.

[@marcomongke3116]

Some of our intense hate for Bioware stems from our intense love for Bioware.

[@Anna-md5nc]

I have played maybe 10 hours so far and the biggest complaints Ive had - everything feels rushed, they tell me to find the Veiljumper lady and I walk no joke 2 steps and wow there she is!! And second, why THE FUCK are we not the inquisitor? i didnt like inquisition but at least that was a polished main character with a backstory and a reason to be invested in Solas, Rook is completely unrelated party and we didnt even get to see WHY they joined?? like did bioware just forget the entire reason dragon age origins was called origins??

[@TheBlooMoose]

It would’ve made much more sense for us to continue up as the inquisitor - very good point. And the last ten hours are definitely better than the first ten, I’d say!

[@Fade2GrayOG]

I play (or rather played) Bioware games for the story and roleplaying. Game mechanics were always secondary for me. The weak dialogue was enough to make this game a pass for me. I really don't want to roleplay as a toothless group therapist in a Dragon Age game.

[@nyanchat2657]

Honestly, I saw the criticism but purchased it anyway because I have every other DA game, but I could NOT handle the cringe. Look at my pfp, I have a pretty high threshold, but this one broke me. DA characters talking like millennials was just surreal, and the characters themselves were unlikeable, plus the gameplay feels like it's a mobile game. It's a shame because the plot was interesting, but I could... not. Refunded. The dialogue, I think, is also bad because writers make it happen just so the scene/plot beat can happen, with little regard to context or how it would actually flow. Characters end mid thought and the conversation moves on, or someone randomly brings up another topic because Plot, and the character lets it happen (when this happens irl people usually apologize or say 'this is off topic but' or SOMETHING). Even if you don't read often or have never dabbled in creative writing, it'll sound unnatural because digressions in everyday conversation have SOME sort of connecting thread between them, which fiction often emulates for a reason. In this game, it really feels like I'm reading a first draft where the writer forgot to delete the outline notes at the end of each scene. It's really hard to take anything or anyone seriously when I've read fanfics written by 12 year olds with a better understanding of characterization and fluency, and no, that is not hyperbole.

[@christianbouchard8541]

Dragon Age the Veilguard has to be the most anti Dragon age game i have ever seen. I started playing dragon age origins to compare and it's bounds better. Sure your character is a grey warden tasked with stopping the blight, but you can still be evil in the game. And a lot of your companions will acknowledge you being evil(especially Morrigan). That and the character designs look better than the modern designs of Veil guard. In Veilguard, it seems everyone has large heads and eyes. Environment is stunning but the people look off. But I'm getting off topic. Point I'm getting at is... Veil guard is an anti roleplaying game. There's NO possible way to be evil in the game. The Blood Magic class line is completely removed because it was "too evil" for the story. Dialogue is delivered in a way that you aren't talking to adults you're going to battle with, but children you're babysitting. Not to mention there's some instances where you're railroaded into playcating a party member. Like the dinner scene with Taash's mother. After the scene, these are your options: - I'm sorry. - She's wrong! - I don't like her. - She needs time. All of these options say different things but basically have the same meaning: "Don't cry Taash its okay, your mom IS intolerant!" Even though that isnt the case. It makes me feel the writers of the game's story and characters definitely had some sort of agenda to push. The other dragon age games DID have illusions to in game politics, however they didn't feel preachy or in your face about it. VEILGUARD is preachy.

[@Saje3D]

Oh, I’m sure you’ll have plenty of opportunities to be evil in real life. As a young male gamer in this day and age, it’s guaranteed.

[@mightyn8]

You say that the dialogue doesn't take away from the story, but you have to actually have the stomach to be able to get through the cringy dialogue without exiting the game. I am a HUGE Dragon Age fan and wanted to love this game, and I just feel like I am being tortured whenever most of the companions start to speak. I was not able to get through more than the first 4 missions of the game. Genuinely, I dread opening the game ever again. It's THAT terrible for me. And I know that I am likely more sensitive to dialogue and story because I have a background in Creative Writing, but holy hell it's bad. And the thing is, even if you ignore the bad dialogue (which is like 85% of the dialogue in the entire game), the story is just extremely generic and ruins the lore that was painstakingly handcrafted over so many years. Lore retcons galore, ignoring players' choices from previous games because "no one cares about one-liners and codex entries" (quoting the devs here, I as a DA fan LOVE those little details which make the world feel more alive and make me feel like I had a hand in shaping its history), and a bland conflict of "good versus evil" in which you're not allowed to have any kind of true roleplaying - you're the "good guy" and so you can't be mean to anyone other than the "evil guys who deserve it", and you are forced to do your companions' questlines regardless of how you personally may feel about them if you want to get a good ending. This kind of ending works well in a game like Mass Effect 2 because you very likely come to care about most or even all of your companions during ME2. Veilguard is the first game that has made me want for my protagonist to fail, and for all of the companions to die because they are all so insufferable due to the writing. I want the evil gods to win and destroy the entire world so that there can be no more stories in this setting - this setting that I ADORE - because the writers messed this one up so badly. I'm sorry but for me an RPG is 90% about the writing; if the writing is bad, the game is bad. Simple as that.

[@NWthinkout]

🤝

[@ciuuin4098]

yes! a fundamental part of screenplay writing that I was taught (a medium which is very much all about the dialogue) is that it needs to have a conflict. which doesn't mean every conversation has to be an argument, but a well-written conversation is like a miniature story - there need to be defined stakes, motivations, obstacles, and conflict if you want to capture the attention of a reader (or player, in this case). I'd argue that this is one of the reasons why the DA2 dialogue writing is so strong - because the game focused VERY heavily on the rivalry or friendship mechanic, and placed characters at odds with one another and the player, it was very engaging in the dialogue without expending huge amounts of effort.

[@lcicada]

Neve is the writers pet and it’s so obvious it hurts.

[@user-fr9wg9ft3p]

The only one worse than Neve is Taash.

[@spakermanplays2much]

DUDE, I'M SORRY i can't stop laughing at Neve... aside from having a gigantic head she wears a MOSQUITO COIL for a head dress... crazy

[@user-fr9wg9ft3p]

Man, I hated that goddamn hat...

[@LXXVIIZONE]

Dialog aside, the combat is boring, puzzled are boring, the companion combat system is horrible, strip the dialog aside it's still just a bad generic game

[@luchirimoya]

This

[@maiafay]

This is why I enjoyed the interactions with Solas. At least there you could be mean and disagree with him, and then he would Snark right back. That’s what was missing with the companions . What I noticed most was the repetition. Repeated phrases by characters and even Solas was victim of this. And unnecessary words. Like when he says “if there was some other better option,” to Varric at the very beginning. Other better option? And also tenuous connection. He mentions those same exact words twice. It’s just so sloppy, and dumbs the character down.

[@AmySorrellMusic]

It is as if they created the dialogue during the writer's strike and just let the CEO's teenage daughter write it in lieu of a real writer.

[@beccangavin]

This was so very accurate! In that it agrees with just about everything I’ve been thinking about the game as well. The edges have been smoothed out on all of the characters and on the world so the stakes seem trivial even though we’re supposedly fighting something potentially world ending. There are simple binaries that remove all of the complexity in the world and we’re left with only good guys and bad guys. That’s why we never leave Dock Town in Minrathous. Dock Town is good and worth saving but showing the ruling class in Tevinter would complicate that. We never see the discrimination against the elves that, in part, motivates Solas’ actions so we never get to really understand why he wants to bring down the veil. If we did that, it would complicate things and this game just removes complications. Why do the Antaam side with ancient elven mages? Who knows? They’re just enemies you have to fight and they look cool. What do the Venetori want? Power, I guess. Who cares? They’re just mage mobs. Why don’t the elves follow their own Gods? Well, because then we would have to ask why they would follow those monster gods and this game doesn’t have time to think about that. We’ll just use the mobs from the previous games and make them work for this game’s bad guys. So my little paragraph makes it sound like I don’t like the game. I actually had fun playing Veilguard. I think mechanically, the game is very well done. The combat is fun and the level design is great and the world is very pretty. If you turn off all of the hints and quest markers and ignore your companion chatter, the puzzles are fun but not too challenging. The NPC’s are generally pretty cute and some of their interactions are adorable. Without the complexity in the world, though, it just doesn’t feel very much like a Dragon Age game. As a note, there is some banter between Taash and Harding where Harding quotes Varric as saying sometimes stories don’t have to say something, they just need to be fun. That may have been a philosophy they were adhering to at some point in the game’s development.

[@darkbeach72]

I've watched a few breakdowns on Veilguard's writing issues, but this one makes the most sense to me. I always felt like my emotional reactions were being managed like a toddler in a house with overprotective parents who had gone through the trouble of padding every edge and corner with foam. And it's possible they did this with the best intentions. Maybe they listened to player feedback and people said "I didn't like it in the story when this happened" and instead of saying "yeah, you're not supposed to like it" they said "ok, well then we won't do that". Overly cautious.

[@GenshinLover283]

The real problem is that the massive layoffs that they had earlier this year had much more of an effect on them than we thought

[@danz139]

David Gaider, who was a narrative lead for Dragon Age before leaving BioWare in 2016, said in a Twitter thread that writers at the developer became "quietly resented" and were seen as an "albatross." The points in the writing you bring up, I believe, come from this. I remember one of the team members in the development stating that he didn't like roleplay aspects in game and I thought, "then why the hell is he working at building an RPG?" He sounded so disdainful about having a story that was important. I wish I could remember his name! Did anyone else see that clip of the guy saying this? The developers didn't want gripping story. They put their money on game mechanics instead that would cross platforms easily.

[@banjomir519]

You summarised the problem with the writing really well! It has ruined the game for me, especially with subsequent playthroughs which just highlights the bad writing more and more.

[@Charbified]

Glad to see a sensible review of the issues in Veilguard. There's a lot of people trashing on it for reasons that are just ridiculous or bigoted. Was it a bad game? No. Was it as good as it could have been? Definitely not. For many of the reasons that you say here. They made a lot of mistakes with the writing, but I really worry that because of the backlash in other areas they won't actually look at it like that and make any attempt to improve things in the future because people are focusing too much on other areas. There has been so much complaining, and so little actual constructive criticism around it. I personally don't mind some of the cringey dialogue. I think sometimes it's fun for things to be stupid and goofy, because for me personally video games are an escape from the boring real world. But the complete lack of tension was just a killer. I don't even mind the therapist approach tbh for Rook. I personally love going through hours of dialogue, chatting to every companion every time I can etc etc. But make it feel real. Everything was just sugar coated too much. I wish they had dialled it up just a little? Though not to the extent that some games have had where you feel like it's a constant balancing act of "If I do this then this companion will lose approval, if I do that then this other one will lose approval" where everything becomes an analysed decision on who you bring where etc etc like some of the old games. (Looking at you Morrigan...) Approval in Veilguard didn't really matter? It felt like a bit of a pointless inclusion because they didn't push it quite enough. I think that's the issue in general with this game. It's just a bit too squeaky clean. Not quite enough grit or sharp edges, as you said.

[@ilgiallo0]

As an Italian i am baffled by the stereotype we talk like peter griffin when this guy talk like a caarilon

[@pascalsimioli6777]

I'm italian too and our people really don't help us to defeat said stereotype

[@jonetgames]

I've never heard of italians sounding like Peter Griffin? Where did that come from? 😂

[@jonetgames]

And what is a caarilon?

[@aschergamer2213]

I think I found the thesis of this channel, and it is one that I like and would enjoy seeing spread around: You should seek enjoyment of the game first, without fixating on problems that would steal that joy. And then, seek the underlying cause of the problems, to further the conversation. Thank you Bloo. I enjoyed that!

[@xLionsxxSmithyx]

I was seeking enjoyment... there was not enjoyment to be found...

[@anthonysmurthwaite6258]

@@xLionsxxSmithyx most people who have played it found enjoyment, it's unfortunate you didn't but that's not what most others think

[@nyanchat2657]

@@anthonysmurthwaite6258 most others? but the game sold like shit and the (real) reviews are terrible

[@aschergamer2213]

@@xLionsxxSmithyxI am sorry to hear that. I had the same experience to a growing extent with Starfield, and I can understand that disappointment. I hope that you find something that will be closer to what you’re looking for!

[@myaaa5932]

very well-put!

[@masterxsoldier3596]

Played the trial, tried to focus on gameplay for ive been a long time fan and have consumed a lot of lore for years but the constant reiteration of what you just said killed the game for me.

[@newhope33]

Worst game I've played in years,

[@spakermanplays2much]

Lucanis looks like Moistcritikal cosplaying as a vampire John Wick with Puss in Boots accent,

[@luchirimoya]

Lmaooooo

[@adelinerobbins876]

Aside from bad dialogue, bad animations and expressions also kill a scene. Watching Lucanis, it's like his face can't decide what to do. It's so distracting, I'm not paying attention to what he's saying. And I've seen other scenes where they just sit there like a statue, barely moving their hands and only their heads. Whereas Origins, a game 15 years old, manages to convey the emotions of the characters so well. I am not pulled out of it by bad dialogue OR bad expressions. I can forgive story if the game isn't driven BY its story. But Dragon Age is. You spend a lot of time with the story. The companions are always talking while you're just searching for side-quests or exploring, you can't even escape it. This is a crime against story-telling.

[@prokhor_zakharov]

I've been having fun with it. I'm treating it like a fun/campy B-movie. It's not really an RPG, as you don't really play a role so much as get pushed into one, but it's pretty, flashy, and reasonably engaging action game. Not every game needs to be written to the level of Baldur's Gate 3 to be a good time.

[@mattroxursoul]

The only problem with this is the same with every other franchise that gets messed up. The tone of the series has always been fairly serious. If this was just a new EA ip most people would not care. But when you take an established IP and swerve it wildly you can expect negative feedback.

[@anthonysmurthwaite6258]

@@mattroxursoul Dragon Age hasn't been completely serious ever, there has always been lighthearted moments, and each game including Veilguard has gotten a little more light hearted than the previous, not drastically so but comparing the tone of Veilguard to Origins is misleading if the point is the tone isn't as serious as Dragon Age games are, because there is no established tone across the franchise, also Dragon Age as a franchise is defined by huge changes in every game, when thinking about what a Dragon Age game is huge changes across each game are a far more consistent aspect of the franchise than what alot of people are saying are what Dragon Age is defined by

[@prokhor_zakharov]

@@mattroxursoul That makes sense. For me, Dragon Age 2 was a big enough departure from Origins in tone and direction that I haven't really taken the Dragon Age IP all that seriously since. But that's just me.

[@aschergamer2213]

I agree with much of this statement, but I really enjoyed Inquisition. I feel it had a strong balance of light and epic. It truly felt grand, not just because of the game’s length.

[@marlow21]

@@anthonysmurthwaite6258after silently lurking in the forums/youtube comments, i can feel that people are not really a fan of the DA franchise but are just a fan of DA:Origins

[@archaeopteryx91]

This is one of the most objectivelly scathing criqitues of Veilguards I've seen, Imagine if he didn't like the game at all lol

[@user-fr9wg9ft3p]

I agree that the dialogue sabotages the story and takes the edge of the moment, your example was really on the spot. And the lack of friction really bothers me. It's all so... tame. I can barely disagree, even less argue, not even snap at them. This is a group of people risking their lives to take down TWO GODS or the ENTIRE WORLD gets torn to shreds. That should be an extremely stressful situation. And getting people to get along is difficult even under normal circumstances. Not to mention that people in the world around me should not just take my word for it that two elven god have escaped from beyond the veil. There should be much more friction and the whole thing should be questioned much more both within the team and outside of it. The reviewer who describe it as an HR meeting was correct. I also felt like the game was attempting to force me to care about various things it simply did not help me care about, including certain team members. It really felt like it was trying to force an emotional connection that wasn't there because the writing hadn't made me engaged enough to form an emotional connection to begin with. There is snippets of good dialogue in there and the main stoy is not bad in itself, but BW fumbled especially with companion dialogue because even though the game is decent I just don't care what happens to Dock Town, I don't care what happens to Neve, I'm really not interested in the game's attempt to force me to care about Jacobus or Tarquin or Strife and I don't think anybody is stressed enough about being the only shield that stands between two insanely overpowered gods and the end of the world as we know it.

[@JanTuhycek]

Great analysis, thanks.

[@anthonysmurthwaite6258]

I'm personally loving this game, the dialogue is so much better than people make it seem, there are lines that are cringe, especially out of context (which is how they're being shared around) but you could say the same for every bioware game, and while the dialogue in this game is worse than the 3 previous game, it's only by a small amount, and there's alot of dialogue that's very good, but this has alot going for it so that it's understandable why some would even say it's the best in the series, anyone who cares more for gameplay would probably prefer this to at least one of the other DA games, and in terms of lore revelations this game has some huge reveals and showcases that make the entire franchise better imo, and it was already one of my favourite franchises I personally still have Origins as my favourite but this has already surpassed 2 (aka Exodus) imo, and it's close to surpassing Inquisition It's also the least buggy bioware game yet and it's only just released, it's relatively bug free compared to every other dragon age, mass effect, Jade Empire or Kotor game, and for modern AAA games that's a rare thing

[@xLionsxxSmithyx]

Spoiler here but I think Evataash being joyous that we're still alive and even happier that we saved bellara so we're gaining people... Moments after the Person she was in a relationship with just died to be really awful writing.

[@anthonysmurthwaite6258]

@@xLionsxxSmithyx that didn't happen in my playthrough, so I have no idea the context, but I'm pretty sure the line of gaining people is for if people survive that mission, even if someone died in the previous mission, because they are specifically referring to gaining people in the current mission

[@SwaggyScallywag]

Dialogue wasn't as bad as iI thought, sure it has flaws but seen way worse. Graphics are my biggest gripe, the lighting & textures are from PS1. It's 2024! The DEI bugged me when spent way too long in character creator trying to make a female character look feminine. Female voices have a normal or low option to make deeper but no lower option to make higher. There's no neck slider but 3 for a adams apple? Otherwise combat has me hooked. 7/10 so far

[@Abou_Huraira_Production]

True the combat flow is extremely fun , first I thought the amount of dei bs in the game is a lot turn out many people exaggerated it a bit , it's there but u can ignore it , graphics to me looks good , the problem is actually the art It looks a lot like Disney art to me

[@SwaggyScallywag]

@Abou_Huraira_Production that's what I mean by graphics, the art style is PS1 textures & lighting. The architecture & geometry is good it just needed polished surfaces & lighting. DEI isn't rammed down your throat as much as the negative media is. The right leaning hard right

[@TheBlooMoose]

Yeah they made some very strange choices with the art style - it occasionally looks great but mostly not amazing, as you say. Potentially it’s a result of the long development cycle?

[@bd555]

Yeah, I’ll tell you what’s wrong with the dialogue, because of DEI it’s almost a given they used female writers for these characters as much as possible, that’s why the dialogue emphasizes getting along, harmony, and comfort, and shies away from confrontation and friction.

[@cardemis7637]

To you, any women writing is DEI.

[@aetherfukz]

This is the end result of safe spaces and everyone being offended by literally everything. I couldn't even stomach playing this for 2 hours, and I loved ALL the dragon ages before this.

[@cardemis7637]

Then why was Bg3 so popular?

[@ningenKami]

What can we learn? Well, WE, DA long term fans certainly learned to keep our wallets shut from this SJW plague.

[@sonjahll7707]

Imao a real long term fan would know that the games have always been "woke"

[@tyrannosaurus_wex]

Wasant transphobic before this game then i found out who pieced this axe wound of of a joke .

[@Charbified]

Sure you weren't