This Meme sparked an interesting Discussion

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[@Smol_Butt_Cheeky]

I think there is a point though where the difference in power level makes the interactions pretty much meaningless. You FEEL like you are interacting with it, but the truth is that none of it matters and you have already lost. I always like to bring up a Dragon Ruler experience I had back in the day. My opponent went first and just set up a dracossack with 2 tokens, nothing special. So then it's my turn (I was playing plant synchro) and I looked at my hand. I had multiple lines of play and one of them included making a Mist Wurm to clear his whole field. There was nothing stopping me from doing so. But it was futile. I knew that I had to spend so many resources taking care of a field that he can just make again effortlessly. And even if I survive his next turn I didn't have the resources to keep going. So what if I could make plays? The game was basically over right then and there. This isn't a problem vs decks of the same power level, but when it's just 1 deck standing atop of the world, you have the tear problem, a very skilled based fun deck, that's only truly fun when playing itself.

[@W_Sir_Morpheus]

Based

[@comettcg8830]

I think he did say it's also an issue, but it's outside of topic that he currently talked here which is comparing full negation end board vs snake eyes board

[@mrharvy100]

lol this. Cool you can do stuff but none of it matters so all you accomplished is prolonged your loss wasting your time. Nice “interactive gameplay”

[@connermorgan9223]

I think the issue is decks like tear and snake eye are interactive and interesting but players don’t like how there’s only one atop everything else. An ideal format would have several non-toxic decks of a similar power level that can play against each other in an interactive way.

[@dominickangelo4319]

@@comettcg8830it’s not off-topic in the slightest. Snake-eye end boards are no different than a board full of negates. So what if you can interact with it? The effects are overpowered so whatever you try is neutralized anyway.

[@ducky36F]

The problem with Snake-eye is the same as with Tearlament, it’s only intractable if you are playing a deck of equal power, and what deck is of that power level, why exactly snake-eye or exactly tearlament! It might as well be 5 Omni-negates if you aren’t playing a mirror because you don’t have as many cards as they have interactions.

[@shirohiruka]

Josh didn't say that this is not a problem. He said that this IS in fact a problem. But this is a power level discussion, not fun gameplay discussion. Tear exists doesn't make SHS a fun deck. Tear is too strong yes, but fun. SHS is not as strong as Tear, but it's not fun to play against, even in mirror

[@danha3107]

exactly and Josh points out this exact problem. Forcing everyone onto the same deck due to a power level spike is an entirely separate issue though

[@blakeowens5996]

Ah yes that’s why it’s tier one in master duel. Right? Oh wait it’s tier 2 and branded is the best deck…

[@danha3107]

@@blakeowens5996 idk what you’re talking about but MDMeta has it at tier 1 rn. Also people need time to cook for Bo1 and MDMeta takes like a day or two to actually reflect what’s going on

[@shirohiruka]

@blakeowens5996 this discussion is talking about TCG lmao. MD is a whole different meta with Maxx C and best of 1. And also, MDM is not a good parameter for tier list lmaoooo. A lot of good players don't care about MD except during the DC Cup which grants a spot in worlds. So we need to wait for the next DC Cup results to really judge a deck tier. Regular MDM turney is nothing compared to the competitiveness of DC Cup lol

[@invertbrid]

I dont get how they are much different, as both end board are oppresive and likely win u the game on spot anyway. Unless ofc maybe if u draw some combination of board breaker + handtraps or 2 board breaker like soul release + 1 more. Tho same can be applied to SHS etc. u can stop em through multiple handtap / board breaker Do u feel more "fun" playing againts like 7-8 interactions than like 4 omninegates? (3 or 4 of those 8 interactions can be negate also as snakeeyes can use apollousa, not to mention savage and baronne in synchro build). They let u play sure under illusion u can actually resolve something (before they got interupted anyway) vs omninegates. But the amount of interaction wouldnt let u achieve much anyway.

[@jasontu2636]

Yes this is one of the worst takes Josh has ever had.

[@RepTheoAndFriends]

I mean if your opponent has 6 omnis they can just negate 6 cards, if your opponent has 6 interruptions, but they are all of different forms, they have to be more skilled to know exactly where to interrupt you, if your deck also generates advantage as crazy.

[@invertbrid]

@@RepTheoAndFriends sure if its the same number of omni and interruption, omni is better. Thing is fire king snake eyes can have like 8+ layered interruption, even include appolousa as monster negate if they wanted to. Meanwhile how many omni u see in decks like matmech and rikka again? I really doubt even reach 5. Edit: just checked rikka jess combo. With one card combo aka loci, It usually ended on 2 omni (therion and hyperton), 1 monster negates (princess in grave), and and possible 2-3 more interuption (konkon and teardrop tribute, also bangalancer bounce). Is it stronger than 8 layered interruption / negates? Debatable. But u are most likely lose againts either one anyway. And layered interuption with possibility of running into handtraps as they can run 15+ of it. Make it harder to out snake eyes board than rikka, which u can get rid most of it using single dark ruler.

[@RepTheoAndFriends]

@@invertbrid But then it's about the power level of the deck. If you play a deck which is so good that every card can force an interruption and still doesn't loose card advantage (unless the card is negated) you can still play through 7 layered disruptions. But your deck needs to have a crazy power level to do this, so most decks don't do this. For instance Snake Eyes can win against Snake Eyes if they draw Nib + Combo, but most decks would lose if they draw Nib + Combo.

[@jasontu2636]

@@RepTheoAndFriends what deck is putting up 6 omnis lmao

[@colossaldonut5190]

Josh doing his very best to not let his pure hatred of Cyberse show through.

[@antonionova6022]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Snake-eyes also always ends on Baronne/Savage borreload, 4 mat Apo, princess + whale set up and refilling their hand for next turn? How's that at all not as toxic as Mannadium's board, which also wants to end on 3 mat Apo + Baronne and a few other stuff?

[@amethonys2798]

If anything it is more obnoxious since traditional combo decks like Mannadium or SHS lose if their board is broken since they blow through a lot of resources. Fire decks have infinite follow up and WILL win the game if it gets to turn 3 or 4.

[@arobnugzo6818]

It doesn't. They do make savage and threaten baronne if they open the 2 card combo and you open zero interaction. Usual end board pre-trap is that they end on whale (pcess in gy) IP and Flamberge to my experience, most of the time (assuming they only got 1 card combo and/or htped). Looks very sht but works...but you can break it and OTK especially if the player is new to the deck.

[@RanDoomPuff]

I think the best way to see if a deck is interactable or not is whether or not the going second player can beat itself in a mirror where there is no non engine. If yes then its an interesting deck, if not it very likely isnt .

[@marstcg]

Pretty valid take imo

[@babrad]

If you fact-check this comment by comparing something like the SHS full power mirror to Snake-eye eye mirror (even including Fire Kings), you can't deny how true it is. Edit: Bonus points when all those interactions aren't simply omni negates from generic bosses all staying on the field and simply invalidating your hand if you don't open an "unfair" going second card (the no-response squad represented by Super Poly), but instead they are not only layered (hand,field,gy giving value to staples like CBTG) they are also based on removal making the gameplay infinitely more "interactive".

[@keikaku9298]

I don't think a pure snake eyes going second can beat a pure snake eyes end board. You have to beat baron, apollousa (3-4), linkuriboh bait, promethean pop, and amblowhale pop, and optionally savage.

[@RanDoomPuff]

@keikaku9298 well the only advantage pure snake eyes has to fire king snake eyes is having a lot more non engine so its kinda to be expected. Also amblowhale is like never a pop in pure snake eye.

[@ducky36F]

That’s a pretty good call haha

[@SaucyCharmander]

The biggest issue for me with fire king snake eye how consistent it is, not only can you get to your line with ease, but this also means you can play a ton of hand traps. It’s really frustrating when you can play through the fire king board, which i agree isn’t super oppressive, but you end up losing to hand traps. Not to mention the decks follow up is crazy. It’s interactive to a point but I hate how it can shove in all the hand traps

[@hurrdurrmurrgurr]

People like to tell themselves hand traps aren't turn 0 negates and floodgates.

[@leekyonion]

@@hurrdurrmurrgurr so just combo off and win. fun.

[@hurrdurrmurrgurr]

@@leekyonion See that's an even bigger problem than the handtraps. Decks shouldn't be able to combo off and win because even if handtraps are meant to be the answer to those psuedo FTK decks you aren't always going to draw them. Way too many games in master duel end immediately because you opened the combo starter, they didn't open the hand trap (or they did but you also had gamma/called by/nobleman) and so they surrender. We're at a place where every deck is a monster going first and can't get off the ground going second because first turn endboards are way too strong. Hand traps don't stop this, hell half the time hand traps are the second layer of this endboard.

[@OsirusHandle]

​@@hurrdurrmurrgurri agree its good when a hand of full engine is still strong. I think this is generally a problem of certain engines being very bricky, eg. many decks need you to stick exactly 1 card and if they cant they fold. so they are required to play outs to your out rather than supplements

[@adewilyan8030]

Dude, consistent is a trait what makes them so good. You having issues with em being consistent while also having weak endboard, what's left for em? Also i'd argue losing to handtraps is way better than losing to unbreakable board (without hard-drawing the only out) as the game plays a few turn atleast you get to play also whilst being 2nd (that's what INTERACTIVE means anyway). If you hate that aswell, well you're just hate losing in general which is unreasonable in this context. What's next? You hate when your LP down to 0?

[@davemarinas3259]

If having Bystials doesn't mean Mathmech is okay how is having Soul Release okay for having Snake Eye Fire king

[@TheoJay615]

I don't hate Fire King. I just can't afford Fire King :D

[@Hotshot3334]

This is the most honest take I've seen.

[@Jiggle_physics19]

Based take.

[@MrLionniol]

Aren't the fire kings in a structure deck? Clueless

[@UmDevoto]

​@@MrLionniol Because its unplayable to the internet players without 3, bonfires

[@OsirusHandle]

​@@UmDevototbf not having SP or wanted hurts really badly

[@actrose4272]

I think the crux of this whole discussion is that with decks like Tear and FK Snake eye you get the feeling of interacting with your opponent in a meaningful way but you actually don't get into a winning position, the scales don't tip in your favor, unless you open specific non-engine outs. A FK deck interacts with every action you take and you have almost no hope of winning. SHS, Rikka, Mathmech just say "okay go next" outright, but the outcome is basically the same. The thing is you cannot have the discussion of oppressive end boards without the inclusion of non-engine because every deck in their respective format loses to the Turn 1 board of the above decks without targeted handtraps (crow, Bystials, Droll, Nib) or boardbreakers (DRNM, Evenly, Super poly, kaijus). Non-engine is necessary because the board these decks can build in engine with 1 to 2 card combos is nigh unbeatable.

[@shirohiruka]

No I don't agree. Funny that you mentioned Tear, because if any deck can win going 2nd, it's definitely Tear. The better crux of this discussion is whether you can still win going 2nd given the same power level deck. For Tear and FK Snake Eye (or pure), the answer is yes. You can definitely win going 2nd in mirror. Now I ask you, can you win going 2nd in SHS mirror or plant mirror? Definitely not.

[@xCorvus7x]

​@@shirohiruka This is a real difference, and exactly what Joshua means, but think more of the general player experience: which deck is there that rivals Fire but isn't Fire? There are still people enjoying stuff like Swordsoul. The difference you point out is there but it's maybe not all that relevant.

[@danha3107]

@@xCorvus7xyou’re absolutely right but general player experience in terms of deck diversity is not what we’re discussing here. Yes it’s vaguely related but still a separate topic as we’re focusing on interactivity (especially in-engine). If konami introduced multiple fun decks at Tear’s level in POTE or Fire’s level in PHNI, there’d be no complaints. People only care because the deck is too expensive for the average player and just a massive spike in power level

[@shirohiruka]

@xCorvus7x My opinion is as the guy above me, couldn't say it better. But yeah, this whole discussion is about "Joshua's taste in ygo decks", not about what everyone taste is. The discussion started from the meme where he was being a hypocrite of liking Poplar but hating on Cicular. So then he explained his reasoning. So talking about the "general player experience" is a bit out of topic as indeed we are only talking about interactivity (what Josh consider as "his taste" of the type of ygo decks that he likes)

[@actrose4272]

@@shirohiruka You are correct about Tear and FK Snake eye being able to win going 2nd as well. I only now noticed that I forgot to mention, that I was talking about decks other than the mirror not being able to play through any of the 1st Turn boards regardless. But I believe my point still stands that you need non-engine to reasonably win games in Yugioh nowadays for going 2nd in general

[@victort.2583]

I wasn't entirely on board with the reasoning at first; I think both Poplar and Circular are ridiculously pushed, and a lack of interaction is a result of overloaded card design. To say that Snake Eyes is "good" overloaded while Mathmech is "bad" overloaded would seem like arbitrarily picking favorites. I started coming around to it at the bit on how the archetypes we play shape our perception of what's a problem and what isn't, though. If you're playing something evenly matched against them, you'll notice how outcomes against Mathmech boil down to who solitaire'd better - something that wouldn't really happen with Snake Eyes... unless your offbeat deck is a few tiers lower. I'd still say that both cases are the result of power creep and that it's a question of if its upsides outweigh its downsides... but then, my view might have been different if I had approached the game differently.

[@aidanyoung9133]

I think this discussion made explicit something a lot of people don’t when they say X extremely powerful deck is interactive: it’s only true if you’re playing the deck. If you’re playing a less powerful deck, that interactivity is just as oppressive as a negate board, in that both can very easily “shut you out of the game” by just stopping every play you try to make.

[@RNE1993]

I think the Fire deck is less oppressive than Tear, speaking as a Tear player. You could lose the dice roll playing Tear and go full combo on Turn 0. The issue is that the deck costs more than twice as much, so it’s way less accessible.

[@stefaniagerardo7562]

but yo, tear format was the funniest shit to play holy mirror matches were straight up insanely fun to play (idk about the fire king yet haven't got the cchance to play them)

[@tcoren1]

@@stefaniagerardo7562it's a really insane mirror match, in a good way. Lots of fun. There are some cool interactions like using hiita to revive opponent's garunix, since it gets its effect off on any special summon (plus if they play only 1 you deny them access to it). The fact that kirin hand effect represents an interaction like 3 chains away generates those very funny moment where both players need to pause for a bit and slowly do chains properly to avoid borking the boardstate. I'd say it has a lot in common with the tear mirror match which is high praise

[@babrad]

@@stefaniagerardo7562 It depended, if the sturn player had the above average hands they could just start out with Dweller in the mirror and unless the opponent opened an Orange Light it was GG immediately. OR the hidden Shaddoll Beast in hand where Winda is summoned first because you aren't the turn player. Or when only one of the two mills shufflers. It was more enjoyable compared to other tier 0 formats. DEFINITELY. But it still had a lot of issues (rng but especially Dweller/Winda) while it even made other decks (even hard counters like Shifter decks) complete unplayable. I bet that Full Power Kash wouldn't be enough to stop Full Power Tear. Personally i would love a month or two of them going head to head even at the expense of an emergency banlist.

[@chaotixthefox]

Snake Eye is weaker than Tear, yes. This is not disputed. Havnis is an xfactor that helps with the deck's going second ability(and handtraps), but is not the reason the deck is as strong as it is. Additionally, Fire King Snake Eye and Labrynth have both been granted Turn 0 capability and neither is near that level.

[@abdurachmanromzy4778]

​@@chaotixthefoxits lowkey level,but still doesnt hinder the fact that having ability to play on either player turn was completely better in term of power than 90% of deck that exist in this game

[@chucotownchino2803]

How many rogue decks can be consistent enough while running enough hand traps to stop snake eye? There are a few, but they usually are stopped by 1 nib or droll or something while fire decks need 2 or 3 hand traps to be stopped

[@OsirusHandle]

depends on the hand. fireking can be stopped very easily... provided they didnt draw redundancy.

[@shirohiruka]

You are talking about power, not about fun gameplay. Josh already addressed this in the video. Power level is another problem in ygo. But this discussion is about fun gameplay, not power level. Of course you will always lose vs a better deck lol. But given the same powered deck, there are decks that are fun like Tear and there are decks that aren't fun like SHS

[@chucotownchino2803]

@@shirohiruka does power and fun not tie together? Does someone who's favorite deck is tier 3 have fun getting beat over and over?

[@shirohiruka]

@chucotownchino2803 So, if my favorite local football team is in tier 3 league, do I get to complain when they got absolutely destroyed in a match vs a premiere league team during a discussion of whether the current football championship is fun or not? See the issue? You're talking a completely different thing lol. Everyone is free to have a favorite, I also have a pet deck. But complaining that our bad pet deck keep losing to a simply better deck is out of scope of the discussion in this video lol. You're dragging what being here to another point of discussion.

[@chucotownchino2803]

@@shirohiruka you act like that's not exactly what people do? Why do you think this conversation is happening? The one in the video and this one

[@klaoerudon926]

Whether its negates or interaction, fact is that its a ONE CARD + 8 combo (+ hand traps)

[@dxpope7037]

it would be really symbolic if a water deck becomes meta.

[@michaelkask5674]

Marincess cope 😢

[@shirohiruka]

After more than a decade, it would be funny if we go full circle and back to the water-fire meta😂

[@danha3107]

highkey hoping for new atlantean/mermail support or structure to bring back the lore accurate fire/water format

[@ThatOneWeirdFlex]

Ghoti could get a regional top, but YCS might be too much for it, even with the 2 new cards and full wallet access to SP.

[@tickledeggz]

​@@shirohirukai would legit quit the game, i aint spe ding 6 months looking at mermaid waifus and orange blobs (design better fire monsters konami, every fire archetype is orange blobs).

[@amethonys2798]

Yeah, sure, the deck FEELS less oppressive than a 7 negate SHS board, but unless you SOMEHOW break the Snake-Eyes board AND OTK it literally does not matter because the deck has literal infinite value and follow up that they just grind you to dirt. Flamberge and Princess are beyond custom cards since neither banishes themselves after they leave the field for who knows what reason so unless you sack them with Soul Release you are never winning if the game goes to turn 3 or 4.

[@markogamingtv7030]

how is terrahertz+superfactorial more opressive than a fire king end board?

[@MiyaoMeow588]

Add Cynet Conflict and 3 hand traps, then we'll talk. The worst thing about it is Laplacian's hand rip, but hand rip effects are always a bad idea regardless

[@rgm0005]

What are you talking about? Superfactorial gets you Laplacian, which hand rips and sends two cards from the field, as an interrupt on the opponent's turn, and is also an omni-negate, and Terahertz is going to murder you, because it gets so big, so fast and you have to find a way to deal with it while down 4 from Laplacian and it can send cards to the graveyard that have effects that are also bad for you. SE ending on the dragon, I:P, and Amblo gives a lot of interacting, via targeting pops and such, but no negates or handrips, and it's vulnerable to a lot more handtraps along the way.

[@primedialga]

It's about how you get to that board, and about what it does. Ash/imperm a key piece in a cyberse deck? anyway, let me extend with one of my backup cards, endboard is probably the same. Sometimes even a second and third hand trap does only marginally decrease the power level (depends usually on the type of hand trap) Ash/imperm a key piece in fire? they are probably missing some parts of their normal endboard at the end of their turn. Then there is the time. cyberse, plant, rock, shs, all decks with extremely long combos. but you also can't just conceede because maybe they mess up the combo or have drawn a card they didn't want to draw; and maybe you will draw your out at the beginning of the next turn. And negates are usually stronger than destroy/send/banish effects, with how everything searches for replacements or triggers on summon.

[@DNNYYCLR]

You have to open the god hand to end on that board. Cynet conflict is a seachable with micro coder or firewall dragon phantom. You have to highroll the 3 hand traps with heatsoul to be realistic. You also have to have a path to circular, which are all 2 card cost to do. ø​@@MiyaoMeow588

[@rixia_ygo]

Mathmech didn't top for months but people in here are saying they're "ridiculous", I can't man.

[@christianmccall4126]

By this metric, would you say the pure snake eyes variant is better cus 2 omnis?

[@74URS74]

He likes the illusion of interaction like runick with fountain drawing into 3 hand traps or runicks spells and snake eyes with their multi layered pops and recovery

[@ojamaftk9585]

Ever play against herald of ultimateness with 6 negates or literally any skill drain deck?

[@mrharvy100]

Ever play against Tear in T0? Another “illusion of interaction” lol

[@ojamaftk9585]

Yes and it was a lot more enjoyable than going against stuff that made 0 interaction. Tear was definitely at a point where the amount of interaction was starting to get a bit oppressive, but it's still better than 6 omni negates or 3 floodgates.

[@thatnerdyouseeeverywhere7536]

@@ojamaftk9585Why are we even debating which one is “worse”? Having half my deck in the GY off of not being able to predict a Herald negate is just as awful as playing against a deck you can “interact” with but every card they have generates several times the advantage any of your cards ever will.

[@ojamaftk9585]

@@thatnerdyouseeeverywhere7536 true, they both suck

[@sonicyellow]

So if Plants full combo and you're going second as Fire King Snake Eyes, you're scooping? Serious question, because I feel like the answer is no but this video implies the answer is yes.

[@briannitzschke2767]

Just a thought I had. You said "you can interact with the fire deck" "the plant/mathmech decks are uninteractive" These are true, you **can** interact with the fire deck, plants will prevent interaction. But with the majority of ways you'd interact with the fire deck **are detrimental to you** is it really any different? In a lot of ways, putting up no negates, but making it actively bad to destroy your stuff, that could be said to be worse actually.

[@finbao]

its the illusion of an interactive end board, sure you can interact with it but you're still going to lose lol

[@carloseiroariera7793]

3:50 the illusion of choice.

[@invertbrid]

Facts lol. They give u illusion of "less oppresive" interaction, yet u wont be able to play through em anyway as they can interrupt everything u do like 8 interruption possible not to mention if any apollousa / baronne / savage in some snake eyes build. Their interruption even more powerful and oppresive coz its layered compared to some deck josh hates.

[@danha3107]

he literally addresses this later in the vid. Tear and Fire are massively raising the standard power level of the game. Lots of older things are thus naturally gonna feel much worse, and these new decks will FEEL “oppressive” compared to the older decks. But what Josh calls “good YGO”-aka having interactive games-is different from having decks vastly different power levels which is also different from having a diverse meta. Tear mirrors were incredibly skillful and interactive, likewise with Fire mirrors. The same cannot be said for Plant or SHS mirrors. Another commenter said it best: if in a mirror where turn player 1 goes full combo and turn player 2 still can break the board or even win without non-engine, that’s a good indicator for Josh’s definition of “good YGO”. All things being equal, are the actual matches being played interactive back and forths? Again, this is an entirely separate topic from “is the meta diverse/are there lots of good different options”. A deck can be oppressive without being interactive (SHS, Plant) and it can be interactive but not oppressive (most things in pre Fire meta) so these are 2 different concepts. I agree it sucks to force everyone onto the same deck, but criticize Konami for creating such a massive power level jump, not for shitty design.

[@mrharvy100]

Tear meta was not “skillful” lol. It’s literally shotgun mill into haha board during either turn. EZ mode deck in its peak. “Interactive” sure since it doesn’t flood, but hey have “fun” interacting to a Tear after they finished vomiting mills since all you are really doing is stretching out the obvious “you lose” where a flood at least doesn’t waste your time

[@danha3107]

@@mrharvy100 yes tear meta for anyone not playing tear was miserable. Nobody’s arguing against that. You ever play a Tear mirror though? Lots of skill there

[@DavideMantovani-vf3zu]

what do u think of rescue ace, can contend with fire king?

[@marcusking332]

I'm surprised nobody is running chain disappearance as a way of countering Snake Eyes.

[@mrharvy100]

“Interactive gameplay” in itself is a meme that people parrot to justify their broken decks

[@sangdrako]

How does full power tear stand against current fire?

[@gungnir382]

The Entire Discussion was very Interesting to hear for someone like me that is playing this Game since 2002

[@ThatWeirdAtom]

I knew this meme would create this discussion video and I really enjoyed it.

[@abdurachmanromzy4778]

Well,ofc power level wasnt the problem The real major problem is power distribution across deck/archetype/monster type

[@LazurBeemz]

"interaction" is a buzzword

[@freaki0734]

i feel like appolouse is a card that just has to go like maybe strong modern deckscan break them easily enough but backed up with one or two omnis that is effectively just herald of ultimateness

[@josefl.2053]

funny block dragon adamancipator

[@finbao]

How do you suppose a plant deck breaks a fire end board? Fire end boards are just as oppressive as combo decks to combo decks lol. It seems like you're okay with a deck making an oppressive end board as long as the deck is so strong that it can also go second. Plant also has grind game as part of its full combo....

[@finbao]

I think the other decks mentioned there is a point.. but plant skill ceiling and choke points.. I dont agree

[@TinyStranger]

I feel like the difference is feel. Yeah the top decks now don’t end on a bunch of Omni negates where you literally can’t play the game. But if literally everything I try to do on turn two has some interaction from my opponent, it’s like I can’t play the game with extra steps. You could argue that’s a skill issue or a power level issue or even a pay to win issue in the current format, but I guess my complaint boils down to, how much interaction is too much? I understand it’s one thing with Omni negates where I literally can’t play cards, but in this format it’s like, okay I can play a card but now without my opponent playing two or three for each one through my turn. That’s why a lot of people I know hated tear, because it got to a point where it didn’t matter whose turn it was, tear can play and counter each card played.

[@charlesfort6602]

Im not really sold on the cyberse ED argument when fire decks have now a generic rank 3 that can revive any fire, no effect negation, doesnt banish it, acts as interruption on oponent turn and recurs itself at that. And there is also sunlight wolf recycling for free and charmer heata which is also a free body in mirror/if you got ashed. I'm not denying Josh point, in fact, he convinced me quite well, I'm just pointing out.

[@razielfaustus9733]

unlock the block

[@user-vw3nj6il6w]

"Just play a powerful deck" So play Snake Eye? Because nothing else compares to the deck in the slightest. Also good luck going 2nd in the mirror without opening non engine when your opponent ftks you with 4 mat appolousa.

[@nightknight498]

The biggest problem I have with the current Fire Deck is how much Snake-Eyes attract Floodgates by design, as they can just stall their opponent and then send them for cost next turn. It sure is fun watching your opponent jerk to Diabellstar for 20 minutes just for them to flip Summon Limit, Anti-Spell with 3 Handtraps in the back.

[@ichiniisan21]

I could even be fine with being forced to play a specific deck, the issue is the price of wanted, bonfire, populus, princess, ecc. I'm fine with strong engines provided that the game is not locked by a 300$+ paywall.

[@jonanderirureta8331]

You said that you don't like link-climbing nor 1 card crazy advantage combos, yet that's exactly what Fire decks do. Next banlist I hope either Circular comes back or Ash gets banned since they're the same card.

[@obskewerd3992]

Iv been really annoyed and bored with every deck being able to just step over everything you do with no set up or barely any cost. So threw the Runick Engine into swordsoul and its been hell dope.

[@adonnis1]

I will never understand how people can say playing against tear is fun. Even today I loathe playing against tear. They run through hand traps so I have to always have side deck just for that one matchup and sometimes it’s literally just not enough, they end on Rulkallos, Kaleidoheart, the dark world fusion, and the counter trap every single time through 4 pieces of interaction it’s insane. At least against mathmech I have a chance of winning it doesn’t feel like none of my actions matter. I just know everytime I’m gonna play against tear they’re just gonna keep going and going and going it feels so bad to play against

[@TheJustforcommenting]

I mean so far looking at it, I've seen it lose decently to despia branded and flu, so there is cheap options if the deck becomes popular and they're pretty decent over-all

[@floooowandereese]

Despia, a deck that's shoved by so much support and good shits (just like new fire support cards). And Floo, floodgate + GY hate with Shifter. That's not surprising for me.

[@felixlandivar627]

I've not got a huge amount of experience, but personally I've found snake eyes SO much more fun to play against than other past best decks of the format, and even rogue strategies at that. As a dedicated dragon link player (I'm a student, I can only afford 1 deck), I can't stand decks that feel uninterruptible like full-power tear, or that rely entirely on going first, like dinomorphia. I really appreciate the discussion between fun and power. As you said, a deck doesn't have to be tier 0 to be super unfun to go against.

[@driptcg]

Definitely an interesting video/discussion

[@user-vw3nj6il6w]

I feel like Josh forgets that there are players which enjoy different aspects of YGO. I already play chess, if i wanted to play mirror matches i'd play chess.

[@Pliskin88]

Truth

[@ethanhopper2467]

Even if Snake-Eye ends on a ton of interactions off of 1 card, the difference is that they're layered. You're able to interact with them and play around them, force them out, etc. When all the interactions are piled on at the beginning there isn't really any way to trade favorably with them.

[@yy5173]

But broken is still broken no matter what the layering. Not really no matter, its more player friendly obviously but if you loose the same amount of games against layered interruptions than against simple negates it does not change the outcome

[@luminous3558]

It just comes down to whether you are good enough at the game to recognize if you have lost or not. Same thing with Tear being "interactive". At the end of the day a player of the highest skill only needs to look at their starting hand and check if they have a line that plays through the amount of disruption the opponent has set up. So yeah its probably less "draw the out" and more "open enough ways to play and extend" which is healthier but its still a reliance on drawing a certain card combination.

[@Azkadaz]

I actually HARD disagree with this. When the interactions are layered, it is MUCH harder to deal with. When all the interactions are up front, you can absolutely trade favorably - Dark Ruler, Evenly, Lightning Storm, Droplet. Try using one of those cards against a layered board, it won't matter

[@OsirusHandle]

​@@Azkadazthats generally good though, winning because you drew evenly and wiped your opponents entire board makes for very unfun games.

[@mysta3152]

⁠@@Azkadazyes and this is why branded claps without negates

[@SlowRule]

I love playing yugioh to interact with each other in the game, its why the 10 negates through 5 handtraps setups are unfun. Its fine losing to the fire deck if you get too play through it and the opponent can misplay and you can outplay by hiding what you have such as holding your ash for when you chew through things or bonfire for poplar Vs running into 4 mat apo/baron/savage + whatever. Often with decks like the fire deck as well you can metagame around it in your rough choices, i've been playing centur-ion at locals i don't plan to go to a YCS anytime soon, if a reigonal happens near me i'll go. Even through that if i run into it with my side/non engine will be tailored too mitigate it as much as possible. If i wanted to play a more turn based card came i just play pokemon. Breaking YuGiOh down into a pokemon style gameplay isn't very fun.

[@R3IsL]

Fuck are you on about bro? Playing through 5 handtraps is cap, most combo decks die to droll, are neutered by shifter & constantly have to respect nib and them master duel adds maxx c to the equation, they play through veiler imperm & ash but that's about it

[@ArepaLord1]

@@R3IsL Also, to play through veiler, imperm and ash they need extenders/additional starters/chainblocking, or some other form of resource. It's not like they play freely under any handtrap. Honestly this comment section is pure cap.

[@SlowRule]

@@R3IsL Lill bro really doesn't know hyperbole

[@R3IsL]

@@SlowRule Are you or are you not implying that these combo decks are barely impacted by handtraps & always end on full boards through them? Well, "little bro" was this an incorrect assumption from your hyperbole or did you actually think I took at face value that you think combo decks can end on 10 negates through a full hand of disruption?

[@jackjack3472]

I've never played Yugioh but this was such an interesting discussion wtf

[@ll01dm]

you can play for free with one of the simulators "Master duel" or "ygo omega" (if you want all the cards for free)

[@robottobor7276]

With literally 2 Cards, Snake Eyes can end with a better SHS board of 3200 Apollousa+Borreload Savage+Baronne+Promenthian Princess in GY+Linkuribo to protect Apollousa +snake eye engine disruptions and full followup With Spright Elf in master duel, the ceiling could be extended even higher

[@blakeowens5996]

Yes, with an uninterrupted two card combo that doesn’t make that board if you get hit with handtrap is better than the one card super heavy combo, and?

[@beegyoshi1685]

fire decks feel interactive but only if you open 3 handtraps the deck doesn't die to nibiru, droll, evenly, drnm, ash, imperm or veiler. the disruptions the deck has are not very it is a 1 card combo deck without almost none of the weaknesses the others have it is resilient to both handtraps and board breakers the deck may not feel unfair compared to the other insane combo decks but remember tearlaments? the deck with almost 0 negates that was tier zero because of how good it was? how interactive that was (if you played the same deck)

[@beegyoshi1685]

also mathmech endboard was not that good i think joshua circular hate has been stupid fpr a while

[@Jrpg_guy]

​@@beegyoshi1685i played mathemch, best endboard i had, was ip, cyberse wickkid and pitknight. Was not really strong and outable. Mathmech is easier to out then fire kings, and in all honesty, their endboards aren't too different. He just doesn't like cyberse decks really. I mean he likes runick live twin spright and that was basically a jumbo ultra combo deck. But ey who cares, everybody has their own opinion

[@CarlosGarcia-lo6xf]

@@beegyoshi1685 The endboard was good but really easy to hate out of the format, belle stops superfact completely, bystials hit every major piece and also stop superfact, shifter kills the deck, circ can come back to 1 and not do anything, it wasnt doing anything, just supoptimal lists topping once in a blue moon in some small regional

[@rgm0005]

@@Jrpg_guy This is a legitimate skill issue, then, because why would you end on Wicckid and Pitknight. Just to start with, Wicckid's an extender. You could go into, e.g., Nabla to get Diameter to go into the Alembertian line to get even more stuff. I'm not sure why you'd even want to end on Pitknight, but you could even use her for some of this, and at this point you already have a bunch more interrupts.

[@Jrpg_guy]

@@rgm0005 well you did that before, this endboard had the 3 monsters with diameter in grave and the trap set, was my girst ever deck i tool to something like a tournament shish. And yeah, was a weird build with abyss dweller acess before cyberse locking and similar. Tear was a weird for at man.

[@akichan4168]

So Josh, you are saying I can have merrli back in MD?

[@Okarin_Time_Wizard]

pure snake-eyes can make Baron and Appolusa on the opponent's turn you know.

[@PersonaPrime]

I think you are missing the point, though, Josh. Being able to interact with something that you can't break because it's that resilient is more frustrating than straight-up knowing you've lost because false hope in my opinion is worse. Remember when Tears would get hit with Shifter and Dweller and still win? Yeah.. You are free to struggle and try to break your opponent's board, but I know it, you know it, everyone knows it, that's not going to happen, unless you are playing the mirror matchup. If in 99% of cases the only one you can beat you is yourself, then that's just way less fun and you just end up in a format where everyone plays literally the same deck and nothing else, just like Tears until it gets nerfed to the ground. It's hard to get new players into the game because it is too complex, but you are also pushing away your more competitive players because you are forcing them into a another format where you either spend 1000 on the new tier 0 deck or don't compete for the next 6+ months the very least.

[@yugiboy815]

To summarize the video. Any interaction outside of a negate is good interaction even though the game is a guaranteed loss anyways. The yugioh community is so perplexing. So Because my board has a bunch of negates on it it's a problem but because your board has a bunch of different interactions that in the end means I lose the game as well it just gives the illusion that I can play that means it's okay? Makes 0 sense. But I guess that's to be expected from someone who creams themselves over Runick non-stop.

[@sinnohan2225]

All of the new decks require a bunch of $60-80 3 ofs. I don’t want to have to pay $500 to buy a new deck.

[@joeymayson8279]

Just yolo $200 gatcha on MD and you have the full deck

[@Zephrophyx]

just play raidraptor bro decks like 60$

[@ThatOneWeirdFlex]

​@@Zephrophyxdamn. Even Ghoti is expensive with 2 Arionpos + Deep Beyond being almost $25

[@invertbrid]

Just play floowandereeze bro, prob the best budget option. With prosperity reprint u can get em under $100 mayhe, not to mention they dont need extra deck much. Can bring shifter which is very good this format.

[@babrad]

While I agree with Josh on SP, I believe her ability to hit the GY is what really makes this card so OP, and the additional interruption is the cherry on top. We haven't had any "removal" generic extra deck monster hit recently (since Drident, even getting back boomer Zeus aka Exciton) focusing almost exclusively on play playmakers (Isolde, Halq) or floodgates (Ariseheart, and even without the removal effect everyone would play it for the floodgate one). I honestly believe if one card can break that tradition then it's definitely SP (limited at the very least after cashing in a reprint or two)

[@ShoyuBoyu]

These videos make me want to play Colosseum

[@spark1128]

I'm less bothered by this being a tier 0 format and more bothered by the tier 0 deck being so ridiculously expensive. It's not only the price, but that its expected lifespan is so short, I can't justify spending such a large amount of money on a deck that will definetively get hit really hard on a banlists in the future.

[@WingedEspeon]

Tier 0 farmats are usually super fun when you play mirror matches. Dragon ruler mirror matches are really fun. Tear mirrors are fun. Fire deck mirrors aound fun. I have to wonder how a snake eyes vs tear matchup would go in a fan format if you unbanned/limited a lot of the tear cards.

[@truekingofallgeneraiders]

This is the exact reason why Tenpai dragons are cool af

[@gabrielgois8724]

They're fucking cringe and braindead like any other otk deck like Numeron

[@ThatOneWeirdFlex]

Literally uninteractive since you can't target them in MP and BP makes them unaffected.

[@truekingofallgeneraiders]

@@ThatOneWeirdFlex Blind going second is literally the opposite of uninteractive xD

[@AndrewUdal]

I don’t think I’d cal the issue with matchmech being it plays through hand traps. Fire king snake eye does as well. My main issue is it’s 1 card that does everything. A good example is, if you ban snake-eye ash, fire king snake eye doesn’t die. Sure, the card is insane as does a lot, but the deck has other ways to play. Circular got banned and the deck died. That’s poor card and deck design. A card shouldn’t have to be the be all or end all card.

[@babrad]

Hitting Ash feels like the hit Diameter got in MD. For SE the real "circular" is Poplar, while the true hit to SE as the engine for every other deck is Original (including FK). Free summon (both from hand), free fodder (Circ as material, Poplar both as material and faceup card), and searcher of the best card of the archetype (Superfactorial/Original). To me Poplar is a direct upgrade of Circular, the only thing the latter has above the first is that sending to GY is cost so it cant be negated (but wont work under Shifter unlike poplar)

[@AndrewUdal]

@@babrad except circular’s summoning mechanic literally can’t be Ashed and dumps a mathmech for cost. That’s a lot better. You can disrupt poplar, you can’t disrupt circular. Poplar would be like circular if it set from deck not added. Also, another point to make is if poplar is banned you can still very much play because of Promeathan princess. It doesn’t out right kill the deck in its entirety.

[@babrad]

@@AndrewUdal that's what i mentioned in the 2nd sentence. But it's just "pick your poison" since Circular cant activate at all under a Shifter (or arc light) instead of losing to Ash. Poplar setting from deck would completely invalidate Droll, whereas Circular loses to this hard if you don't open a 3rd name (and don't specifically mill the one that gives the extra name) while the Firewall combo is infinitely more fragile/less potent compared to the snake eye combo under droll. The reason i responded to you in the first place is because you spoke about Ash and not Poplar (or Original). Mathmech and Snake-Eye are literally the same case, if Mathmech didn't have the Cyberse lock. But i'm willing to bet the majority of players (or me at the very least) are BORED TO DEATH by Mathmech because their combos are so telegraphed you can hit them during their first 20 seconds of their turn, then depending on their exact next following move, you can check your and and accurately predict how the entire game will go (about engine, not the random handtraps drawn) and if your other interruptions are useless at this point or you just auto-won (hello Druis for example) Snakes can also be linear but Mathmech are the definition of a cookie-cutter deck.

[@AndrewUdal]

@@babrad fair

[@Gawatsu]

The reason I hate modern Yugioh is because you always see the same 3 monsters on almost all the top tier end boards. Baron de fleur, Borreload savage dragon, and Apollusa. And now you have to worry about 5 different negates just so you can play the game.

[@Adrianovaz2007]

No wonder one of the banlist suggestions I saw floating around was killing Apollousa and Baronne

[@theGrassMan0305]

I think a good example of interactive but not oppressive is Branded when it first came out in the SD. Was it the best in the format? Yeah, and the rest of the decks in the format had to shape themselves around beating it. But you still COULD play against it. Something like Centur-Ion where they just put up a card (or cards) that say "you literally can't play the game" is NOT fun

[@frankunodostres473]

so instead of "just draw DRNM/evenly" it is now "just draw soul release" :D

[@invertbrid]

Kinda lol, but soul release doesnt even out them by itself. They still have interruption on field and their 15 handtraps.

[@stoichion3026]

I love this take,. I don't play fire decks but I love playing against them using my rouge. You can somehow play around with some of their interactions since they don't negate a lot. But yeah,I still lose to it, but I lose satisfied. If I win, I know that I played well and had a good hand.

[@Alex-jw7zg]

Thats a real nice point and i see it the same way. Most times i played against the fire deck were real fun even if i play a worse deck (at the moment Ghoti). Because you still could play your hand and were not just greeted by 5 omnis.

[@117haloall]

Giga Chad mindset (my rouge deck for fire is madolche)

[@danha3107]

thisssss exactly

[@spyro2002]

What people often don't realize is that even in a lot of slower formats the outcome was effectively determined from the beginning, it's just it isn't immediately apparent since both players still have cards they haven't played or drawn into. Yet those games are what people would undeniably call fun. The fun in practice is almost always found in the, now criticized, "illusion of interaction" whether people like it or not.

[@invertbrid]

Its just omni with extra steps tbh. U get to play under illusion of u actually can do anything to break it, yet u dont. But yea at least u can resolve some things, which seems what u value more.

[@sigururf6534]

played since 2006 and this feels like the least interactive deck in a long time, you can't end their combos with 2 or 3 hand traps some times and they can ftk or end on 3 negates while playing an amazing grind game depending on the snake eye deck

[@newbiesama]

“Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing.”

[@Chase1995]

Very good discussion out of something innocently innocuous. TQ for making it. But perhaps it would have been better to throw some specific examples of the kind of "interaction vs non-interactions" between current fire decks and others so more people could see your pov. I don't play the current format at all so I couldn't help but wonder at what kind of back and forth could possibly come out of fire decks; even if i know exactly what you're talking about with old examples I'm familiar with like Ishizu Tear vs Adam.

[@davincameron7627]

Tearlament Malding in the corner.

[@savageforte1004]

Yeah bro just have fun with the meme embrace it

[@SapphicSara]

Plant mirrors would be great

[@fanix92]

I absolutely despise the fire deck just as much as i hate Mannadium etc. I don't want to be forced to play the best deck in the room and I don't want to spend 1200€ just to be able to top a competitive local. This meta cannot go away soon enough.

[@dqvoltheweak6689]

Unlucky

[@Jiggle_physics19]

You sound broke

[@grodon909]

Then don't. Regional tops this weekend were mostly snake eye ± fire king, but there were also wins with kashtira, branded, d-link. If you include top cut there were more like VV, floo, etc. The fire decks are overall the strongest, but saying you're forced is copium.

[@ArepaLord1]

Fucking skill issue. You could get Voiceless Voice for less than half of that and could very well win a regional with it. Hell, even branded, kashtira or lab could get you very nice results on a budget.

[@fanix92]

@@Jiggle_physics19 i am

[@thatwackycardgame5655]

You act like going +10 off 1 card is fair, when every card can do something. You always have leftovers in your hand, and they will obviously be hand traps. 4 Mat Appo, Monster board wipe, extra pops, spell/trap negate, and more pops with large bodies that will easily run over anything you put up if you cant get rid of everything. This is “interractable..”? Sure, I can activate something, and you will just remove it from the field instantly. It’s already a lost game, it isnt any different from being hand ripped 3 times by a fucking siilva. You still lose and you dont have a say in the matter. The only way this has “interaction” is when youre both playing fire and all your cards get advantage and effects when theyre destroyed, meaning half your opponent’s interaction will enable yours. Tier 0 fun format

[@amethonys2798]

Also the deck existing means every OTHER deck cannot run cards like Ash Blossom because it gives fire decks a "free" +1 through Hiita if it doesn't outright skip their turn (it doesn't).

[@christianmccall4126]

They broke the man's patiences and goodwill at @23:35

[@justamuart]

Still hate how he doesnt compare superfactorial to princess and no I:P isnt a single interaction.

[@MegaWomenSl4yer445]

@@justamuart yeah IP is at least 2 interaction, either doing SP or apollousa (cancer link tbh)

[@KixMusaid]

Speaking of Rogue decks, Dino🦖 has a surprising good match up against Snake Eyes👁️

[@asmophet]

I think it's all just "the illusion of interaction." On one hand, Adamancipator format was hated because they would constantly put up a board of negates while maintaining insane hand advantage. On the other hand, Tearlaments & Snake Eye format were enjoyed because rather than 6+ negate boards it's like 10+ interactions. They're the same end boards but executed differently, and people may *feel* Snake Eye is a better format than Adamancipator because they think they can compete despite losing after the first 3-4 interactions. It's all an illusion. They think they can play, therefore they feel they're having more fun.

[@hamster6216]

lowkey we should just limiting "during either turn player/ (Quick Effect) on monster effect, interacting opponent play should just exist with spell/trap cards, like you can only use monster effect on opp's turn 4-5x each turn. Game is too oppressive when first turn player doing semi-FTK heavy combo deck and we have to rely to draw our staple handtrap to make it adjustable. While whenever game gives us floodgate monster effect, game became board breaker fest

[@salbaca1104]

like as i have said before i would contend that there must be checks and balances in the game for example i can play the heavy flashy decks like for example fire kings that spam the board a million times but have fail-safes. While i do not have the funds to play it i play it on DB so i can analyze its weaknesses if built right. Still, i also play heavy control like i am now i am playing a brew of invoked dogmatika with some techs using my years of knowledge to hell with it let's be frank about the issue the lack of experience most of these players do not have for example during the age of math mech i played control but did not use the control most yugioh players know it using floodgates as i used the control in the form of MTG as back when i was a semi comp. player and backed by my local shop i played a deck called Death and Taxes or D&T for short where the gameplan is to use monsters that force them to either cost more to play in the form of "mana" or come in tapped to the point where the opp. could not defend themselves in a meaningful way and i would bury them in pure damage output now back to how this applies to Yugioh i made a shaddoll despia deck using lines of play to get out double tax dragon and then using the doll engine to finish the job with a mini dogmatika engine to keep the train going with a little fun otk gambit using draglubion into number 100 or titanic galaxy as a defense play to steal wins and i even piloted it with my 2 teammates to a second-place finish in a 3v3 tourney in my area

[@marioramblino3214]

I love how Josh being mean is just him telling someone they don't know what's going on, dude is too nice

[@DerpEpicFace32onXbox]

Did this guy not play Bystial Runick? How fucking interactive

[@SimoneCatt]

I wonder when will people on a budget enjoy a deck like this.. tear was expensive and when it started being cheap it was due to the expected banlist, snake eye cards are even more expensive.. it seems like budget players are not allowed to have interactive gameplay in yugioh

[@newbiesama]

I will always liek a pormat with interaction more then one with negates. I have the core engien of snakeyees (so no diablestar or wanted, just teh snake-eyes) And I like it. I don't just don't have the 50-100 buck cards.

[@Atrus159]

I think Konami has worked out the winning formula: Yu-Gi-Oh is broken enough that it's too hard to design a good skill-testing format that is also diverse. So instead, just every set print 1 deck that is head and shoulders above every other deck, and then you can design that deck to have a fun mirror match, AND you can keep getting people to buy every set

[@bandleloli]

It sucks that i cant afford the fire engine because it is incredibly fun to play/watch. It is very enjoyable yugioh

[@Leonardo.ohime.i]

why are yu reducing rikka as just "plants"? also its endoard only has 1 negate at most

[@user-ox7yi1it9u]

3 negates. regulus, hyperyton and princess

[@Yusodus]

I hope you are aware that it's Sunavalon Rikka (almost always), which as the other commenter has pointed out ends on significantly more

[@CrisRullz]

the problem with this game is that it has reached to a point that a coin flip or a dice roll is gonna determine by a huge % whether you will win or lose.. just cuz ppl don't have patience and want games to go faster and faster and faster they are making more and more broken cards.. win the dice roll, 70-80% win the game, this shit is what kills the game alongside decks costing 800+ freaking euros nowdays for casuals and normal player and not youtubers or pros..

[@Mr.Stitch]

While Farfa's meme was (I presume) just a joke, it is nice that Joshua drew attention to this meme that some take slightly more serious than others and gave his opinion

[@NutLump]

I found that Snake Eye is FRUSTRATING as hell to play against but I've also beaten them with Salads and Vanquish Souls respectively. Snake Eyes is a deck that makes you really earn those victories if you beat it.

[@MiyaoMeow588]

Snake-Eyes (at least in MD) has one card combos, but they end on perfectly reasonable boards Snake-Eye Fire King, especially when including cards like Little Knight, is when it gets a little crazy. This deck can play through so much with little effort and end on even more. EDIT: also Mathmech boards on their own arent that terrible, the clincher is that they typically open 3 hand traps at minimum as well

[@luisfail2012]

TCG 1 Card combo 8 diruptions just with bon fire or any snake eye, at least block golem need a set up

[@stefaniagerardo7562]

yeah but block is just a card that shouldn't exist+ it sets up fossil dyna, so you have to prioritize stopping that and then the rest of the board+ they're disruptions not omni negates that don't force interaction@@luisfail2012

[@amethonys2798]

Except Pure Snake Eye is also running like 20 non-engine cards as well. Yeah bro I totally beat Ash+Bonfire+3 HTs. Also, Fire decks being in the meta essentially removes Ash Blossom from every other deck in the format because unless it outright skips their turn (it won't) it makes things worse for you by enabling Hiita.

[@stefaniagerardo7562]

@@amethonys2798 in a maxx environment i think that people would still play ash even if enabling hiita

[@ROWGZ]

I rather fight snake eye than kashtira. Joshua is right its about the power level. Hey, at least you still have a monster zone to summon. At least you dont see monster reborn from kashtira field spell.😂

[@crunchyapples596]

Fire King on its own is honest. Snake Eyes makes it cracked.

[@ryuhayabusa6651]

U need to taake it serious. It is the same +90000

[@dazk5317]

Is it that difficult to understand what josh is saying?, With decks like SHS, Dark world, and all of those abominations that god forgot to give them a once per turn clause on many of their effects, the game is lost on the spot once they resolve. The only reason those decks are "bad" is because they normally lose to a single droll or nib, or a well placed handtrap. But that doesnt remove the fact that if uninterrupted those decks would take 20 minutes to make their turn and end with a no duel. Playing those decks is not fun to anyone, "if they go uninterrupted, opponent doesnt play. If opponent has a singular interaction, they dont play" so in the end no one has fun, which is the main objective behind a "game". So yeah fire decks might be incredibly strong, but at least they let you have a crack at their board, and if you managed to interrupt their plays their board isnt going to look as unbeatable which becomes a fun gamestate for both players, at least that's how I see it.

[@some2043]

i miss when archetypes focused more on their gimmick

[@Yusodus]

Funny part is that Josh likes Dark World lol

[@user-vw3nj6il6w]

That's dumb though. The fire decks give you the illusion of cracking their board. Even if you play through every interaction, you'd need to be playing some kind of OTK strategy to even have a chance of killing them. Because if you don't kill them the amount of advantage they've accrued will just kill you turn 3.

[@dazk5317]

@@user-vw3nj6il6w but they are the best deck, thats why. Let me ask you something, would u prefer to play a dark world mirror match or a snake eye FK mirror match? I rest my case.

[@amethonys2798]

​@dazk5317 Neither because they're both awful. The SE mirror is entirely decided upon by non-engine and opening enough hand traps to potentially stop the player going first. The only reason it is "closer" than any other deck playing against SE is because the deck can run like 18 hand traps and MAYBE win going second whereas most decks can't as you need 2-3 to even do anything to the end board.

[@werewolfjedi38]

I do find it annoying that everything is a negate or doesn't matter to an end board discussion. I like endymion, but I recognize that the deck ends on a pile of negates and stopping the opposition from getting to play the game. Endymion himself stopping spells and traps, and king jackal stopping monsters, can be extremely tilting. It's like you are sacrificing cards to the altar of negation to try and play the game afterwards.

[@cadasshada9732]

Idk why you are playing against such weak version of fire deck ones ive faced end on worldsea dragon then dharc follwed by flame and village to lock me out of spells....by the time they get to this point ive popped 3 hand traps trying to slow them to no effect and when i try to play the one option i have left(drnm ttt ect dead in hand) they just banish and thats it for my turn...only thing i didnt have is nib but at one point he did have little knight on the board so sure i interacted but it ended up amounting to nothing for me....and my emh 1 card starter was useless....sadly shifter is a must in this format just cause of how(oppressive means you can still do something) the new fire deck boards can actually keep you from most of your plays...

[@fatcat2015]

I’ll never understand Josh’s deal with Matchmech, especially circular. It ends on virtually nothing unless it’s playing the cyberse pile package with the firewall dragons. One omni is hardly unique, the real problem is the trap functionally being a pop, hand-rip, and d.d. crow simultaneously (though for most decks it’s just one interruption), so…. what’s the problem card in the deck again? The searcher or the obviously obnoxious trap it searches? Is it circular or is it update jammer/access code talker? I’d market the argument that mathmech isn’t even a good deck outside of having superfactorial.

[@chewdoom8415]

He says right in the video that is really more so the cyberse extra deck cards being the issue than circular. Right in the video.

[@18vlsnp]

I agree. Why im not a fan of droll and shifter.

[@tommoex]

The problem here is that Josh speaks from a pro players perspective, whereas 99% of the people would like to think they're in the same scenario as Josh but can't as their immediate problems aren't the same as Josh's. I think we won't ever progress these arguments until TCG has no barrier to entry for someone's deck choice.