This move makes Fox controversial

[@eliastaoudi6141]

fox dair is just worse bowser dair

[@Vmpr666]

Shout outs to pipsqueak for putting elwyn Forrest background music in his melee video and making me lose my shit tryin to figure out why my wow is playing noise after I closed it

[@AutumnReel4444]

Cody saying Fox isn't the best always makes me laugh

[@SSB_Seal]

Really good counterplay breakdown. The buffer jump thing has stuck with me since your old video so I just need to implement this even more

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

Yea I wasn't sure if I was going to include it in the video at first but it feels like an important enough tool to highlight, it's a cornerstone for how I deal with drill as fox myself so I'd be remiss to not mention it

[@Dougmatrix]

First video Ive seen from you and the way you talk about melee made me an instant fan

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

You making this comment made making the video worthwhile, thanks!

[@random_bit]

solid discussion as always, thanks for the knowledge drop

[@5gods]

Hax$ downairs are really interesting. Wanna see the Pips compete soon!!! 👀👀

[@Alex-xk5xt]

love these videos so rare to get to hear someone talk about the game with a level head like you do

[@KalebSDay]

KJH put dair high in his Fox Move list video as well.

[@pokemaster10945]

Dude I fucking love that clip of Scar at the start what a funny episode he's my spirit animal fr fr

[@evanlustick8294]

In the beginning example of SDI away shield grab, how much leeway does the Marth have if the fox drills into shinegrab?

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

So It's been a while since I checked so I could be off but I am fairly sure if the shine is unstaled (which it never is) it's port priority dependent and if it's stale it's -1 so a 1 frame window for the marth. I know that if im wrong I am definitely only wrong in the other direction i.e it's -1 unstaled and -2 stale. However in the example I show in the video I am decently confident that marth ends up too far away to get hit by the fox grab after the shine. So there it's just free

[@leaffinite2001]

Actually fox is clearly controversial bcuz of his undeniably top tier shield wank, something Hax, the Sage of Time, foresaw as early as 2014, pushing him to pick up the character

[@magawell1234]

No one talking about the WOW music in the backround???

[@joshwitchey3708]

I've been needing this video so bad, I just didn't know it.

[@adwardosa5575]

I think that rest is a better move than falco shine

[@Minwu325]

re: 19:19 for buffer jump out of drill, can you show a clip or the math that there is actually a shield stun gap between hits of drill? each hit is 3 frames shield stun and the next hit connects in 3 frames, during the last frame of stun. maybe this only happens if drill is sufficiently stale?

[@WanderFilledWorldofMelee]

Buffer time

[@Riolupai]

top 100 ranked deltarune fan huge W radiation would be proud

[@hahahalala-i1x]

hot take, i think the moves aren't controversial, i think sdi is. imagine if sdi in this game was super easy, it'll make certain moves useless, and if it was too hard, it makes certain moves too good. its a silly mechanic

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

Discussing the merits of SDI is on my agenda for a future video but some real quick thoughts: SDI is extremely silly SDI is also incredibly important to the health of melee and the absence of it would hurt the game tremendously. Other games that have emulated melee have frequently had degenerate and boring flowchart combo games, and even later smash titles to an extent though that has more to do with how they do hitstun and knockback calculations. Stuff like nickelodeon all stars or multiversus would benefit a lot from SDI imo, if you give characters powerful enough tools it's in my mind the last barrier to prevent over-centralizing strategies around one or two combo routes and technically you could avoid it by simply nerfing those routes specifically but i fear that you're frequently left with a fairly uninteresting binary combo game. In melee stuff like fox upthrow upair > upair > upair chains would be so much less interesting if SDI didn't exist, and too powerful. same goes with marth juggles, one of the main reasons it's not completely brain-dead to kill the opponent every time from your first upair at 40% is because they can SDI up and down to mix your timing or get a guaranteed jump out, as well as to the sides to mix up your spacing. It's a valuable mechanic that has to be very finely tuned to not be extremely dumb, and even then I see merits for removing it too. The prime example I point to for it's impact on the metagame though is with multihit moves, if you remove SDI every multihit in the game becomes significantly stronger than non-multihit counterparts by a huge margin. Right now you kinda have the rock paper scissors thing going on where Single hit loses to CC CC loses to Multihit Multihit loses to SDI SDI loses to Single hit (kinda) If you remove SDI you leave it at Single hit loses to CC CC loses to Multihit ergo always use multihit if your character has it available, or nerf them to the point that they're uninteresting and balanced vs normal moves. In Ultimate Palutenas nair isn't even remotely as good as fox drill in melee but it's overcentralizing anyway because SDI is so much weaker in that game. Not to mention that single hit moves care about how early / high they hit shields while multihit moves don't, another reason why SDI is needed as a counterweight. Eventually i'll write up all my thoughts on the topic with relevant clips for examples but for now I just wanted to get my thoughts out lmao

[@hahahalala-i1x]

@@PipsqueakSSBM looool glad u got your thoughts out. i think yes sdi makes combos more interesting, but at the cost of combos being less "combo-y" and less true the more you factor in sdi, which i believe makes it silly. but giving players more options at all times + making combos more interesting for the person doing the string is what gives the mechanic merit. but idk if games are necessarily better of worse off without it, you pointed out nasb and stuff, but like traditional fighters have you watching cutscene when you're on the receiving end of a combo string, and people don't seem to mind? also ultimate further tried to "balance" sdi by giving certain moves a sdi multiplier, but i think that's a whole Pandora's box of design and balance. and personally i think thats an example of developing harder not smarter lol. but now that's getting into game design theory and not fighting game psychology :p looking forward to the video on SDI!!!

[@bugcatcherharold5315]

SDI and other counterplay make fox dair only a really great move, instead of a god tier move.

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

I don't think anyone is calling it less than good

[@Invictus_Mithra]

How do you guys SDI fox dair? I feel like it comes out so fast that its hard to get ready to SDI it

[@moobs]

@@Invictus_Mithra mostly you are ready after a whiff to do a certain defensive counterplay which is often for drill if fox is jumping

[@Invictus_Mithra]

@@moobs So you're not reacting to getting hit by the move but instead reacting/recognizing the situation. I already do that but I guess I'm just not that good at it lol

[@moobs]

@@Invictus_Mithralike pipsqueek said in the video you can do multiple coverages if you wiggle down and in. but yeah it's mostly recognizing the situation and being ready the moment you see the start of drill

[@pumpkincoffee]

Come back the Smash Stick is out!

[@spongem8118]

Huh, if drill is unstale you can't act between drill hits

[@nextkestrel]

what country r u from i love the accent

[@unapologeticasshat9214]

"Controversial" would suggest imo and in this situation, would be the strength of the tools ability in neutral. It's amazing for destroying cc, its amazing as a mixup on platforms, there's just so much it has. This sounds like a bit of a downplay rather than a genuine analysis. Fox propaganda I say!

[@PipsqueakSSBM]

So I assume "Fox propaganda I say!" is in jest but for the rest it makes me wonder if you watched the intro lmao I bring up shine and upair as examples of other, less controversial moves to highlight two different types of controversy. Shine is controversial because it is powerful, but everyone agrees that it is stupidly powerful. Whereas upair is controversial because fox players tell everyone to just SDI out of it and everyone else says "if it's so easy why don't you do it". To me Shine can't truly be controversial if everyone agrees on it being absurdly strong, whereas moves like upair and drill both have viable arguments for why it's overrated and for why it's underrated. To me that's the true hallmark of a controversial move. Personally I still think it's probably fox's best aerial, especially because nair shores up a ton of its weaknesses and gives fox extremely good coverage against basically every defensive option with those two moves alone.

[@Bluex12345]

the most eloquent melee player

[@ReavenM1911A1]

Meanwhile Falco is just unfun to play against Fox that takes less skill but nobody wants to talk about it

[@firstlast446]

delete laser

[@firstlast446]

Fox is a run away character not a rushdown character

[@thrusteavis]

​@@firstlast446 you can make friends with people that dont play lame and play friendlies til your hands explode w them. Curate your melee experience and dont pursue tournament winnings and your experience with Melee will be so much better