This scene should make you hate Mace Windu

[@Commander_Appo]

The only reason Mace isn’t more justifiably hated is because he’s THE Samuel L. Jackson and everybody loves Samuel L. Jackson

[@Raygo.]

😏 You have a point. I had a funny conversation about Windu with my teenage son recently. I'd been admiring a beautiful replica of his lightsaber but my son sneered and said he wasn't really such a great Jedi and couldn't figure why he was so admired. I leapt to his defence saying how he would have defeated Sidious if Anakin hadn't intervened, and without even thinking said how great it was that he decided to do good "in the end". My son looked puzzled and asked me what I meant... then I realized I was actually thinking about Jules in _Pulp Fiction._ 🤭

[@nocapstreet8291]

Literally 😂

[@McFrozenNuggets]

I agree. Sam Jackson is awesome as Mace - he was just simply doing what he was given by George Lucas.

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

You have spent NO time with this incredibly racist fandom have you?

[@McFrozenNuggets]

@@Mourtzouphlos240 Why are you so mad? 😁😆

[@nicholasemjohnson47]

Mace Windu even went as far as to say that Ahsoka's accusation of treason was really just a test of the Force. Plo Koon at least had the decency to apologize.

[@ShazzledWolf32]

I think plo was one of the few that Stood with Ashoka at least obi wan and yoda and plo because yoda did say we’re not in total agreement

[@vasyear]

@@ShazzledWolf32 Plo was the FIRST to betray her, he never stood by her, he did apolagise but it was a worthless, hallow gesture considering the fact that it was HE that found her and she ALWAYS looked up to him as a FATHER which makes it worse than that scummy prick Mace Windu

[@supermoto9799]

It was dangerous of the jedi order to let a vapaad user spearhead them into a war with the secret sith. Mace repeatedly threw other people under the bus if it benefited him. From Count Dooku to Anakin and almost all those people were disenfranchised and turned to the dark side.

[@joshuakim5240]

@@supermoto9799 If i recall correctly, Mace Windu is one of the few Jedi who taps into a bit of the Dark side for his power (he's one of the rare instances of a jedi using the Force for purely offensive measures, rather than defensive) so his characterization is more or less supposed to be the prime example of the Jedi Order's bad side: he may fight for the light, but he uses methods familiar to the Dark side in a very "the ends justifies the means" manner which in a way kind of makes him a tertiary antagonist of the Clone Wars. In peak irony, it can be very easily argued that Mace's cutthroat approach is what destroyed the Jedi Order, not Sidious or Anakin, since the only reason Sidious' plan worked is because Mace antagonized Dooku and later Anakin into forming the bedrock of the order's fall.

[@sentientmustache8360]

That’s because Plo Koon is a bro and the best side character in the show

[@georgevanhoose6333]

Imagine if they'd sent someone like Shaak Ti, who was in the temple at the time, just to stay with Anakin. Just someone nice enough for Anakin to talk to kinda-openly, but wise enough to keep him from getting out of control.

[@jaxandoorknob2753]

I remember in the book she tried to to stop him from leaving the temple and he just brushed her off

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

What's sad is that in the cut scenes for ROTS, Shaak-Ti gets killed by Anakin. And also by Grievous, lmao! Moral of the story? Shaak-Ti dies.

[@georgevanhoose6333]

@@TheStraightestWhitest She dies more than Kenny, if you count legends... which I do when convenient.

[@vedantmhatre3476]

Shaak ti probably must be busy dying to order 66 even when it hasn't even started yet

[@petelee2477]

​​​@@georgevanhoose6333 I don't know what's canon but the version of the story I got was she survived the initial order 66 purge, she fled to felucia where she trained an apprentice that she met somewhere in her travels (not sure if it was before or after she made it to felucia) and was eventually killed by starkiller. Granted there is way more to the story then that but the brief overview is what I pieced together from playing the force unleashed.

[@HonorTheFallenTheyDeserveIt]

We can all hate the character but we can never hate the actor of Mace Windu.

[@cloak1408]

I dont think everybody HATES the character….just hated some of his moments which all characters have bad moments…

[@toonbou7254]

​@@cloak1408 wrong, i hate this character.

[@cloak1408]

@@toonbou7254 you’re one person out of millions….you’re not EVERYBODY lol

[@toonbou7254]

@@cloak1408 fair enough ahah

[@Leo-nc3yx]

​@@cloak1408 I can't say I hate a character, but I definitely dislike how Mace was as a Jedi. In Anakin's POV, the council was just being gigantic douches to him which enabled his downfall. I mean the kid was slaved and got no father to begin with, what did they expect?

[@Jackal_El_Lobo34]

I totally agree. Mace was being straight up passive aggressive in this moment all because Ashoka declared that she was only fulfilling her role as a citizen rather than a Jedi on Mandalore. That's just incredibly petty. Had he not shot her out of the council's plan, the Jedi would've definitely been on alert for Order 66.

[@georgepurdy7823]

Look up operation security; this isn’t petty behavior. Ashoka isn’t a Jedi she is just a highly trained citizen; practically a mercenary. She isn’t privy to the intel because she wasn’t a need to know person.

[@mathies3598]

@@georgepurdy7823 he shouldnt have brought it up with her present though. And you cant be a mercenary if you're not getting paid

[@georgepurdy7823]

@@mathies3598 and he corrected himself; reaffirming that she was a “citizen”. Who is also a combatant that is seeking to either rejoin the Jedi or become a republic agent; that’s still compensation. Either way she was not in the need to know.

[@youngeclipse21]

Yet she said nothing to Yoda when he was the last person to leave because he knew something was up

[@nickyson4life]

@George Purdy It's funny everyone thinks if she was a Jedi they would have discussed it further. She still would have been a Padawan. At this point in time the Council is secretly theorizing Palpatine is the Sith they're looking for, if she was a Jedi it would have been "I'm sorry Padawan, this is for the Council to discuss" lol

[@abdurrazzaqmumin1574]

When I saw this scene for the first time, I did not hate Mace, it just made me realize that there was no coming back for the Jedi of that era.

[@ICU1337]

I mean there are several times throughout the Clone Wars animation and movie that Yoda points out that its over for the Jedi and that the Sith have won. But he's all "if its meant to be then its meant to be because the Force wills it so 🤷🏽‍♂". Yoda couldve stopped the fall at several key moments but he was like, "F these people. I dont even like them. Let it burn..."

[@nocknmae]

@Stefano Pavone Don't forget Plo Koon, but yeah I felt bad watching it knowing they were doomed from the start

[@Gamerguy826]

@Stefano Pavone Don't forget Kit Fisto either. There were plenty of Republic era Jedi who weren't to blame for it all coming crashing down.

[@stevenasidilla4140]

Made me hate him

[@MrShamooga]

Agreed! That’s one of those moments where I realized they had consistently allowed this to happen.

[@silashellebrand462]

I think the most infuriating scene with Mace was when he said "This was your great trial," to let himself, and the other members of the council, off the hook for what they did to Ahsoka. But this definitely solidified him as unforgivable.

[@yannvalera1495]

True. That was really pathetic from them. "Ah, no, I didn't mess up, it was the will of the force..."

[@mankyscotchgit4986]

@@yannvalera1495 Ironically, Plo Koon is the one to apologise on behalf of the Council, yet according to Filoni, he was one of the only ones who didn't condemn her (the others being Obi-Wan and Yoda). Meanwhile, Mace not only condemns her, but doubles down and refuses to apologise. He's a piece of work.

[@LoinkLoink]

This comment has 66 likes, and I can't change that, just know that you got my like from this comment!

[@JeremyBelpoisX]

​ @Manky Scotch Git Plo probably felt guilty for not being more outspoken on her behalf. Yoda was too. Windu was just a dogmatic jerk through and through.

[@legobrick1356]

@@JeremyBelpoisX And Windu's given even more reason to be hated in the Tales of the Jedi. Not only did he mess up with Ahsoka, but he messed up with his rigid thinking with Dooku. Dude had the gall to talk about ego when he is the perfect example of it in the order (alongside that bitch Luminara)

[@PCProphecy]

After watching the Clone Wars series, it seems many people, including the sith (Dooku), wanted to stop Sideous plans. Imagine if Mace & Yoda had gone together to kill Sideous, and another opportunity arise if Obi-wan would have gone with Yoda to kill Sideous instead of going after Anakin. Even Obi-wan & Dooku, there are so many opportunities. I am shocked Dooku didn't just low-key talk with the Jedi Council, request a pardon, and give Sideous away.

[@supermoto9799]

Dooku felt betrayed by the council repeatedly. He had some respect and sympathy for Yoda but none for the council.

[@WileeCoyote1516]

​@Supermoto गुरु yeah he rightfully blamed them for Quigon's death. I really liked seeing that more human and relatable version of Dooku.

[@RealMothman98]

​@@supermoto9799Don't forget Dooku's fondness for Obi-Wan. He had immense respect for him because he was taught by Qui-Gon and reflected Qui-Gon's beliefs a lot.

[@joshuadesautels]

Yoda SENT Obi-Wan after Anakin.

[@aldairreynoso2564]

Palpatine just knew, he knew they would just do the work for him. Knew anakin would fuck it up with padme himself he didn't have to do shit. Knew mace was going understaffed to face him because he knew they didn't trust anakin enough to bring him. Knew they wouldn't listen to ashoka to be able to come up with a game plan. He built off their paranoia and fed off it masterfully.

[@michaelrobertson4896]

That’s ultimately the biggest flaw in Mace Windu that was his ultimate downfall, his unyielding stubbornness which was shaped by a thousand years of Jedi doctrine. When Ahsoka left the order he basically cut her off and as far as he was concerned she was a lost cause that could never be redeemed or welcomed back into the order. That stubbornness is what ultimately cost the Jedi dearly. Had he not opened his mouth and just let Yoda do the talking instead then things could have been different. Because Yoda ultimately understood Ahsoka’s feeling of betrayal but still hoped that she would one day find her way back to the order to which he would gladly welcome her with open arms. But instead Mace just had to open his mouth and be passive aggressive with her and shut the conversation down which further breaks the already shattered trust in the Jedi Order that Ahsoka already has. The other part of his foolishness was his treatment of Anakin in the first place. They frequently butted heads with each other to the point that it’s amazing they they never turned their sabers on one another. His passive aggressive behavior and outright distrust of Anakin as well as his unwillingness to work with Anakin to help him achieve the prophecy of the chosen one is really what sealed the deal with Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side. At that moment when Windu had Palpitine at blade point and Anakin had a choice it was between someone who he thought was a friend and wanted to help him achieve greatness and a man that had done nothing but stand in his way, hold him back, openly distrust him and was generally hostile towards. For Anakin it was no brainer. Because literally anyone in that situation would side with the person that they think is their friend. There in lies the ultimate failure of Mace Windu who is probably the most antisocial Jedi in the Order.

[@monsieurcommissaire1628]

Well said. It's pretty clear that Windu laid much of the groundwork for his own demise and that of the Jedi order.

[@kicapanmanis1060]

Everything looks nice in hindsight doesn't it? Based on what happened, just do this instead of that and everything would have been fine.

[@fivezedits2486]

You sir, are spittin facts

[@BruvahSulaiman]

It kind of makes sense he felt that way though when you consider he was friends with Dooku who also left the order and became their greatest enemy for a time. He likely fully expected Ahsoka to turn out like Dooku.

[@megapokekid1]

Even though Anakin didn’t help matters by being reckless a lot of the time, you have a point. Plus, Mace and the council’s banishment of Asoka is one of the factors that contributed to Anakin’s fall. Asoka was the closest thing that he had to a sister. And she more or less kept him in line more than Obi Wan did. Sure, Mace was following the Order’s way of getting rid of all emotion, but even the other Jedi showed some emotion (and even in Empire Strikes Back, Yoda was shown to have a sense of humor). Mace, however kept all emotions at bay.

[@ironmaiden93ofangmar]

According to Twitter, critizicing Windu for this type of behavior means you think stuff like Anakin's fall is purely Windu's fault and not Anakin's or Palpatine's fault.

[@zillagrilla315]

The Jedi Order's failings, the Clone Wars, Palpatine's manipulations, and Anakin's flaws caused Vader. But in my personal opinion, the Jedi were at least 60-70% fault that Vader was born. They distrusted him, put high standards on a child, pointed out his flaws, and lied to him on numerous occasions. They should have trusted him a little bit more.

[@ironmaiden93ofangmar]

@@zillagrilla315 I don't know if 60% but they definitely had a part to play

[@sithazzazzin7329]

Anakin belief was shaped by the conduct of the council which he did not trust and they not trust him. Mace Windu was the Master of the Order and thus his personal behavior towards Anakin reaffirmed this belief that the Jedi were against him.

[@devaughnjohnson]

Wrong Anakin is at fault for his choices but that doesn’t excuse Mace or Yoda for their mistakes Mace broke the code by trying to kill Sidious

[@nocapstreet8291]

@@zillagrilla315 not to mention they were big fat hypocrites

[@Mejayy]

As a Mace Windu fan, I can confirm this is a certified Mace Windu moment.

[@M0mazosMissy]

Gotta get on that Windu Grindset

[@Paulunatr]

As Obi-Wan and Yoda discussed, arrogance was growing more and more common among Jedi during that time. Many of them were becoming aloof, and even the wisest of them weren't above that. Plus, they were effectively monks trying to run a galaxy-spanning war against a numerically superior enemy. No one is at their best under circumstances like that.

[@DuoXCity]

Arrogance? How about this for a math problem for all you Jedi haters. Everyone listens to Mace and Yoda in Ep1. Anakin receives no training. = No younglings die, no fall of the Jedi order. Oh wait it's not a problem at all. -_-

[@Paulunatr]

@SirPumpernickle sure, looking at it in hindsight it's pretty obvious. But they didn't have that luxury, nor the benefit of anything other than vague foresight about problems in his future. Plus, Obi-Wan swore on his mentor's dying breath that he would train Anakin. Being the person he is, Obi-Wan made it pretty clear to Yoda that he was going to follow through on that promise regardless of what the Council thought. Yoda knew that Anakin was going to be trained like it or not, so he made the executive decision to allow it in hopes that he could influence what he suspected could be a problematic outcome. It's a very real leadership tactic that's used all the time. Also, Anakin was only a part of Palpatine's design, and not a critical one. He could just as easily lured other Jedi to the Dark Side or simply used Dooku as the vehicle for his ascension to Emperor. The groundwork for the clones and Order 66 were already in motion by the time Anakin ever entered the picture.

[@tomas3300]

Not even Yoda was wise, I hate almost everyone in the council because of their arrogance

[@ellag3265]

@@DuoXCity Anakin receives no training --> Sidious still sets up the clone wars --> More people die in the clone wars due to the lack of Anakin in the battlefield --> Sidious still does Order 66 --> Fall of the Jedi still happens, Sidious is just down a good enforcer People tend to be like "if this ONE thing hadn't happened then all this would've have been prevented!" as if Sidious couldn't adapt to changes or slight failures in his plan given sufficient time and forewarning

[@painvillegaming4119]

To be fair warrior monks are actually a think 😂

[@cptsteele91]

They've definitely leaned too heavy on Mace being stern with Anakin, the revenge of the sith novelisation shows that Mace doesn't actually hold any ill will toward Anakin, he is just skeptical of the prophecy and also wary of Anakin being so powerful but also undisciplined...which seems more accurate to a character who is a Jedi master that actually holds a position near enough equal to Yoda (I think it's mentioned that Yoda is like the spiritual figurehead of the Jedi order and most attuned to the force so he is known as the grand master, while Mace is the hands on leader of the Jedi order, separate roles but same level of authority and respect) on the Jedi Council, but it's been interpreted wrong since because...well I love revenge of the sith don't get me wrong it's probably my favourite of the Star Wars movies, but it did need a good revision of the script and since it has to focus on so many things the character development for people like Mace Windu did get cast aside a bit too much, so a lot of people have taken the "Mace is just a meanie who hated Anakin" interpretation of events and run with it.

[@JumpedIvy25]

I think you got this most right. Right on dude!

[@imperatricedelaconstellati8523]

There's another reason as to why people hate Mace Windu. His skin color

[@luftwaffles274]

@@imperatricedelaconstellati8523 petty people being racist about a human with a different skin colour in a galaxy of over 20 million sentient species of all shapes, sizes and colour. Those are not SW fans bure and simple.

[@xjf459]

🤣 … Have another 🥑

[@fandomking8939]

@@imperatricedelaconstellati8523 and yet no one had a problem with Lando.

[@renegadex2430]

No one ever seems to notice that Mace actually looks at Rex before refusing to answer about the chancellor. Watch it again, 0:42 that split second look changes the ENTIRE context of the scene. Took me years to notice, but they definitely animated it like that for a reason.

[@shauntempley9757]

Yeah. Not just an Ahsoka mistake, but a Rex one. He should have spoken up about what Maul said after Mace shut her down. Mace's look is clearly because Rex is an alternative voice if Ahsoka does not declare herself a Jedi member, it is just that Mace and possibly Yoda were the only one/s that knew that.

[@slin2903]

I do not think that he glanced at Rex he glance at Ahsoka then back to yoda

[@shauntempley9757]

@@slin2903 I noticed that Mace's eyes shifted further right after Ahsoka said she was not a Jedi. He was clearly looking at Rex, after she said that, which means he indicated that Rex should speak up. His response to her was after Rex did not do so, but that was because, being a clone, Rex, like all clones do not deal with subtle body signals like that which inform courses of action that someone else could have taken. They require direct orders before hand that instruct them in meetings. If there had been anyone else that was not a clone that knew what Maul told Ahsoka in the room with Mace and Yoda, that person would have spoken.

[@jfer8152]

@@shauntempley9757 lmao no he wasn’t you’re reaching. He simply moves his eyes like that to convey his stubbornness and pettiness. Kind of like “🙄 I’m sorry…”

[@Eli-akad]

@@jfer8152 definitely a strong reach🤣

[@Trash-Bambino]

Let’s not forget when he told Boba Fett to get over the death of his Father. I mean damn that gotta destroy a child’s innocence

[@ShazzledWolf32]

As of his innocence wasn’t already destroyed by seeing Jango die even dooku was put off by that

[@ericphillips8268]

@@ShazzledWolf32 It was some serious salt in the wound, though.

[@ShazzledWolf32]

@@ericphillips8268 yeah windu has got to be one of the most hated Jedi IMO

[@valettashepard909]

Not to mention Windu’s killing of the elder Fett was just tactically speaking, very foolish. Jango knew things, he partook not only in being the clone army’s donor but also helped design their gear and training regimen. He knew so much stuff that the Jedi would obviously want to know, and yet mace Windu cut him down without a second thought.

[@rightguy200000]

@@valettashepard909 As if Jango was someone capable of being kept alive or as if they were in any position to worry about taking him alive. Thats a silly argument bro.

[@jackson857]

Ahsoka was never going to share about what Maul said with regards to Anakin. It didn't matter if Mace would have treated her better in this one meeting. Ahsoka is still burned by what happened to her, how she was framed and everyone believed the lies about her. There was just no way Ahsoka was going to put suspicions about Anakin out there just so he could be treated the way she was.

[@vasyear]

no she was its too critical a point, are you telling me that she just found out that the only Jedi she gave a flying fuck about was in the crosshairs of the dark lord of the sith that he was going to try and turn Anakin and tell NO ONE? If Mace hadn't been suck a pissy asshole then they'd've been wary of it

[@WileeCoyote1516]

She would have opened up to Plo Koon, if he had been allowed to speak to her alone.

[@aldairreynoso2564]

They wouldn't have believed her anyway, they would've asked who told her that, she says Maul, they brush it off as mind games. It wouldn't have changed a damn thing. Mace still would've told anakin to stay behind and undermine him. Palpatine had already won at this point, his only real gamble was waiting if anakin would do something. Palpatine had already won before Mace even walked into his office.

[@julianozaur444]

Plo is such an amazing jedi, like my god. Most of jedi are those annoying stubborn old guys like Mace or Mundi and there's a rare few like Fisto, Secura or Plo that are just way better than the ranks they posess

[@ladyriethegoldendelmo5441]

@@aldairreynoso2564 well anakin could had give palp death but he assumed it would save padme which totally backfires.but yea basically other than that. palp wins. palp could had won if he didnt save him on the lava planet

[@lazyeclipse00]

He isn’t trying to punish her she isn’t an official part of the campaign or their ranks. Count Dooku left the order and their trust in him and familiarity cause a lot of trouble. She is also Skywalker’s student whom mace justifiably doesn’t trust

[@WUxze]

He does not like and trust him because of his ego and his a fucking master

[@berg450]

I think it makes sense why Windu did what he did. The entire thesis of the Prequels is that the Jedi corrupted themselves with politics and war, and a dogmatic view of the Force which led to them cutting off students who did not learn it the correct way. When Ahsoka was framed for the Temple Bombing they were quick to decide it was her fault, and then when it was revealed otherwise Windu specifically told Ahsoka that this was a test and that she passed, as if he wasn't pushing for her to be sent to death at the hands of the Senate in contradiction to the Jedi Code. They were going to let her die and when that didn't happen they played it off like it was fate, like it was a trial for her and that they did nothing wrong. When Ashoka had the chance to tell the Council about Anakin she decided not to, fearing that they might take extreme actions against Anakin in the same way they took action against her. Revealing that he is being groomed to be Darth Vader could have resulted in Windu killing him prior to going to Palpatine. She made a decision to talk with her master in person, rather than letting the Council do what the Council does.

[@judeautenebrae5837]

As something of a self-proclaimed legends lore expert (with some knowledge of major canon works as well), I have very mixed feelings about Mace Windu. First of all, he received a seat on the council at an extremely young age (he was somewhere around 40 in The Phantom Menace and had already been on the council since at least 44 BBY, at which time he was training Depa Billaba, who would go on to become the youngest member of the Jedi Council in history). Obviously Jedi training and membership on the council both depended heavily on how quickly a being grew up (given that some species aged much faster than others), but even for complete geniuses (which WIndu was) his appointment would have been virtually inconceivable. He was very much a by the books sort of Jedi. The problem is that, as explained by Yoda in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, the books were wrong. The Jedi focused too much on rules and tradition at the expense of helping people and keeping balance: they became little more than government bureaucrats. In a manner of speaking, Windu was the face of these bureaucratic tendencies. Shatterpoint is an exceptionally good book which focuses on Mace Windu and goes deep into his thoughts and motivations, and having read it, it is clear to me that Mace Windu believed he was doing what was best for the galaxy and the people in it. Unfortunately, as he eventually came to understand, he was human and entirely capable of making mistakes. I think it's also perfectly reasonable to blame Yoda (who even began to blame himself for not changing with the times enough to realize the truth about Palpatine and the war) and the other masters who educated many of the younger council members and masters who were generally in leadership roles by the time of the Clone Wars. To sum it all up: Mace Windu was a good person and did the best he could to ensure the safety and prosperity of the Republic and its citizens. Unfortunately, his best simply wasn't enough. I strongly suggest reading Shatterpoint and the Revenge of the Sith novelization, because they are two of the only pieces of Star Wars media (as far as I'm aware) that genuinely attempt to delve into Mace Windu's mind, as opposed to merely including him as a supporting character.

[@twalls792]

Ahsoka calls herself a citizen before this. She’s not part of the Jedi anymore, this means she’s not privy to Jedi business

[@anqareliouth2921]

It's not the content of the dialog, it's the delivery. He said "citizen" in a derogatory tone.

[@sirhorace8883]

@@anqareliouth2921 as it should’ve been. She’s putting her nose into places where it doesn’t belong. If she was still a Jedi this entire conversation would have been different.

[@blackblack1167]

Frankly, I think it’s just people being overly sensitive. Calling Mace Windu a jerk for something like this is a snowflake move Even the title and the narrative of the video, it’s just pandering and manipulative (No, I’m not saying that the content creator is terrible or anything like that, just that he has his own opinions and narratives)

[@mathies3598]

@@sirhorace8883 windu started a conversation with her present, he shouldn't have done that then

[@YodatheHobbit]

@@anqareliouth2921 There's no such thing as a derogatory tone of voice.

[@fpsftw]

They also couldn't have written it any other way. A discussion would've lead to either appropriate action and prevented the rise of the Empire, which totally retcons Revenge of the Sith, or it goes nowhere and the writing is berated for being terrible, which it would be in that case.

[@runsoncaffeine]

You’re completely missing the point of the video💀

[@kamanira]

You're missing the point. The point is that we're looking back at how a small handful of stubborn choices effectively doomed the Republic and the Jedi order. Ahsoka refusing to side with Maul. Maul's unstable state resulting in a battle between them rather than a de-escalation of the situation. Windu's stubbornness. All of these small but exceedingly critical details resulted in the downfall of the Jedi Order and the Republic, all because a handful of people refused to listen to reason. I'd loveto see a "what if" story that takes place in a timeline where the Republic doesn't fall.

[@corruptangel6793]

@@kamanira exept none of that would change anything. Anakin's path is set by this point. His visions and his personality, along with the state of the war, have set the fate of the Jedi and Republic in stone. Nothing could change that.

[@VestedUTuber]

You're trying to give a Doylist explanation in a Watsonian discussion.

[@Gabu_]

@@corruptangel6793 That's straight up false. Anakin would've been perfectly willing to let Windu imprison Palpatine, for instance. All he needed was a way to calm himself after the visions of death and destruction of his loved ones. Something as simple as Asohka or Obi-Wan being present in the council room would've possibly been enough to stop his fall.

[@nmarchan]

I was done with Mace when Ahsoka was falsely accused and the Jedi Council didn't back her, and Mace was like, "this was actually your great trial, the force works in mysterious ways." If I was Ahsoka, I would have left the Jedi after that, too.

[@melvinbagby4221]

I guess. The problem with ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS in The Clone Wars is it's a Deux ex Machina. They all have to be either stuborn or idiots or whatever it takes for them not to reach a conclusion that would change Revenge of the Sith. The status quo (Episode III) must be maintained. I don't know why people can't get that.

[@naverilllang]

He was kind of right. By forcing her out of the order, she became a better jedi than all of them

[@sorrowandsufferin924]

Mace Windu is a character of extremes, which sadly gets rarely explored. He knows the draw of the dark side, perhaps better than most Jedi ever will. Like Anakin, Mace is unable to completely shut down his emotional side. In a way, this makes him a richer character. But the thing about Mace is that he was taught to accomodate for this by his master - no other than Yoda himself. He even created his own style of lightsaber combat - Form VIII, Vaapad - as a way to deal with his weakness, his connection to the dark side. In Episode III, the reason why the council sends Obi-Wan to deal with Grievous is that Obi-Wan is one of the few Jedi at the time who's fighting style does not compensate for a weakness like Mace's or Yoda's styles do - Mace's Vaapad compensates for his ease to be drawn to the dark side, Yoda's Ataru makes up for his size. Both are weaknesses that Grievous might exploit. But Obi-Wan's style is not born out of weakness, but out of philosophy, which means his style doesn't make him vulnearable. To get back to the point, though: Mace knows the dark side and its draw better than most. It's the reason he distrusts Anakin all this time - he suspects that the dark side, which Anakin is susceptible to due to his late start as a Jedi, will eventually draw Anakin in and he will lack the strength to stand against it. Which, in all fairness, is indeed what happens. This is why Mace sends Anakin to the council room to await his return - he rightly fears that Anakin, if faced with Sidious, will fall. Mace also, however, has an unwaivering amount of faith in the Jedi. Prior to Anakin, he was the youngest council member in a long time, if not ever. He's an extremely capable Jedi, wise beyond his years due to his pull to the dark, and an immensely capable warrior. Season 7 of the Clone Wars shows this, and so does his fight in the arena in Geonosis, which he not only survives, but doesn't even see him be injured despite fighting Jango Fett for some of it. This is why he shuts down Ahsoka - she's no longer a Jedi. Last Mace knew, Ahsoka distrusts the Jedi. Why would he trust her, then? And let's not forget what is, to me, the most Mace Windu line in all of Star Wars: "If what you have told me today is true, you will have earned my respect." He says this to Anakin right after receiving the intel that the chancellor is a Sith Lord. Had the chancellor's arrest gone to plan, I suspect we would have gotten to see a very different Mace Windu. Unfortunately, that never came to be.

[@tristangarcia632]

Ok.......but on the other hand Ahsoka is no longer a jedi, she herself says this, she simply should not have access to this kind of information. and as for Anakin..... Anakin, the man the chancellor himself asks for...the chancellor who has followed Anakin's career with great interest....the chancellor who spent a lot of time with Anakin and now you find out that the chancellor is a sith lord I always thought that Anakin could have been treated so much worse by the jedi order. He could have been quarantined, for the while, but the order trusted him. We always see things from out hero's pov.

[@avatarmufasa3628]

The way he responded to her is what I would question. Saying "im afraid we are unable to discuss classified material" is far more reasonable than the snarky comment he made. By seperating the jedi (and the council) from her, he lost that line of communication and this was to the detriment of the republic and the jedi at large

[@collinistyping]

Ashoka may not be a Jedi but she is still a trustworthy individual, there's no reason to cut her out of a conversation like that. That was personally motivated, and the Jedi aren't supposed to act on personal motivations to begin with. Additionally, the way Anakin is now is to a strong extent the fault of the order. Palpatine was only able to hold an influence over Anakin because he actually understood what Anakin was going through, and thus was able to prop himself up as a fake support system. Just because they could have done worse doesn't mean they did good.

[@samueltaft4914]

lol giving him a seat on the council but not the promotion or rank of master showed they didn't trust him at all, due to his relationship with the chancellor.

[@jibril2473]

Doesn’t matter if I’m in the minority or not, but Mace was right. I know Anakin is your guys hero but the fact is that he was always arrogant, reckless and was emotionally unstable and had attachment issues. Because of his actions the galaxy is in a perpetual state of ruin. Mace was a master of the light and dark and knew the danger of of one who fails to balance both sides of the force.

[@jonathan4158]

True, even though he's a jerk you can't help agreeing with him. Anakin did killed an entire Tusken tribe for revenge for killing his mother. He often cross the line when it comes to emotions.

[@purplesamurai5205]

I mean they aren't mutually exclusive? Both were very problematic. I genuinely think only Obi Wan knew what he was doing as far as the order went.

[@ironmaiden93ofangmar]

@@purplesamurai5205 agree with this. Anakin is at fault for his actions. But let's not pretend there's also other factors that come into play when talking about his downfall. Including the Mace Windu or the Jedi's way of handling him.

[@Senovitj]

Given the chance I would build the Death Star and target Anakin, prior to the end of TCW. That brat deserves it.

[@demi-femme4821]

That doesn't mean he was right. He should have been able to tell that Anakin was severely emotionally distressed and acted with more care.

[@blap5630]

In my opinion, that’s still on Ahsoka. If you held the most valuable piece of information in the galaxy would you really just not tell anyone because one person dismissed you? She should’ve immediately told Mace, Yoda, Rex, basically anyone she could. I get that she’s kinda hand cuffed by the plot, but to place all the blame on windu would be silly, especially when it seems like if people (ANAKIN) listened to him they would’ve been fine

[@eddymercan7487]

A lot of people seem allergic to op-sec lmao

[@austinbarber9989]

If I remember, she didn't know that Maul was telling the truth. It was a disturbing statement to her, but one she assumed he was lying about. She still wanted to inform them, but Anakin was also still her friend and mentor, so she didn't want to throw him under the bus. If Mace hadn't made her unwelcome, she probably would have been more willing to discuss it

[@blap5630]

@@austinbarber9989 yeah she accuses him of lying, but I thought it was more her just being in denial, and that she at least planned to tell someone during that call. Yeah Mace made her feel unwelcome, but is Ahsoka not bold enough to dismiss that feeling? Personally, I just don’t think they wrote that bit in a convincing enough manner, but that’s just my opinion.

[@sillyking1991]

@@austinbarber9989 why would windu make her feel welcome? based on context, it seems like they'd already tried that, and she rejected it. she claimed she was only doing her job as a citizen...so he treated her like a citizen. people just wanna blame Windu because they wanna protect ahsoka, and they knew that ahsoka had important information...but Mace didn't.

[@tomas3300]

​@@sillyking1991Council betrayed Ahsoka, after what it did to her it's understandable she didn't want to go back.

[@Dont_care_4_U]

Sorry no. Mace is completely justified in this interaction and the only reason we’re criticising him is because we (the audience) know what’s going on but in universe it makes total sense or did you expect mace to say: ” hello ex jedi that I have not seen in 6 months and for all I know might be a new Sith appearance allow me to tell you all our secrets!”

[@jaybird0312]

Its the blind ass-kissing of Ahsoka and Ani, in a roundabout way, that pisses me off. I love Ahsoka. They did her dirty, for sure. I LOATHE Amakin. FUCK. HIM. But Mace said what he thought based on what he knew.

[@rikudoubapeck]

Exactly. As unfairly as she was treated Ashoka made her choice to not return to the order. Why would Mace discuss sensitive information with her? Obi wan later telling Ashoka about Anakins mission seemed out of character and unnecessary also. They are literally on the brink of treason and he just shares that with an ex Jedi who holds resentment towards the order. The Clone wars did too much imo.

[@victor2641]

This

[@siddreddy1416]

Mace didn't even have the decency to apologize for the council's mistake. At least Plo had that much common sense. If Mace told any of us, the same lame reason he told Asoka (it was the will of the Force, no harm done; the Council is perfect and can do no wrong wink wink) we would bounce too. Asoka was still super young too. Mace is a goddamn senior member on the Council and still acting a fool

[@theravenlordmasterofthevib8991]

Regardless of if he has good reasons or not he’s still a petty, passive-aggressive asshole about it

[@noahdean9685]

he doesn't even question why ahsoka has her lightsaber or how she got them he should've been like "how did you those? your going to have to return those!"

[@fourthhorseman4531]

I hadn't thought of this. Were sabers restricted technology in the Republic and only Jedi were allowed to have them?

[@noahdean9685]

@@fourthhorseman4531 probably and to make sure that the enemies of the Jedi don't try to steal them but since order 66 any lightsabers not found by the empire and burned and destroyed will probably sold on the black market a Jedi's lightsaber as sacred as much as the force is anybody with a lightsaber is considered dangerous or doesn't know what they're doing somebody else could kill them and take that lightsaber I don't know I'm sure there was a reason I still don't understand why ahsoka still has the force if she's not a Jedi anymore you would think the Jedi would have some kind of special parasite to kill the the force inside!

[@user-ic4oh4lt5r]

Yeah, it is like saying that everybody who is not catholic can't pray for God. Another bullshit.

[@slate8409]

They weren't a restricted technology so much as the means to creating them were. Mining the kyber crystals required to create lightsabers, however, was. It was also heavily frowned upon to own them - you could get into a lot of trouble if you had ones that were obtained by killing a Jedi or through the black market - but the act of owning a lightsaber was in and of itself not illegal. It's just borderline useless for anyone who isn't Force Sensitive. Sabers have a weird momentum to them when swung that makes them incredibly difficult to safely use if you don't have a Jedi's precognitive sense, and in the hands of anyone who isn't Force Sensitive you were more likely to lose your own limbs than remove that of an enemy. There were exceptions like Grievous but they were few and far between. The Jedi customarily took the lightsabers of Jedi they expelled from the Order which was how they got Ahsoka's when she was initially arrested... but there's no law or custom against Jedi who voluntarily leave the Order which is why Dooku was allowed to keep his when he left. Mace might've raised an eyebrow at Ahsoka having her sabers back but Anakin broke no rules or laws by returning them to her.

[@LaloSalamancaGaming69]

@@noahdean9685wtf are you into 💀💀💀💀💀 You dont need to be a jedi or a sith to be a force user,for god’s sake

[@alancarey9098]

You can't lay the blame complete at Mace Windu's feet. Both Obiwan and Yoda should have seen Anakin's fall coming. The fall of the Jedi was because no one talked to Anakin the way they should have. And the council was arrogant but all of the Jedi council not just Mace.

[@khatdubell]

He never should have been a jedi. The blame lies with qui gon.

[@jaybird0312]

​@@khatdubellit really does. But nobody will ever admit to that.

[@Vietmac1993]

There is a lot of blame to go around. Anakin included. He did break a rule when he had a secret relationship with Padme. While it is understandable he needed emotional support, it doesn't change the fact that he broke the rule.

[@justushunter8465]

To be fair the whole yoda story arc had just happened before this, and in that Windu even seemed distrustful of yoda’s judgement. The council knows they are surrounded by enemies and a sith lord they don’t know about. Windu’s already an untrusting person, now that with knowing there’s traitors where he can’t see, I can understand why he’d be hostile towards Ashoka

[@ladyaceina]

its amazing how many ways ahsoka almost ruined palaptines plans and the subtle ways palps kept trying and FAILING to seperate the two it took something out of his doing to seperate them

[@dustinjones7458]

Palpatine showed remarkable restraint in that he never really got into the gears of the clone war and just let it run. He never had to focus on removing her from Anakins life...the war did that through no effort of his own.

[@DynastyZwarrior90]

Ahsoka called herself a citizen in that same scene so Mace did nothing wrong. Plus Yoda and the other Jedi didn't object. There was no turning back for Anakin, he only cared about saving Padme.

[@Lilitha11]

Padme wasn't in any danger though, so there was definitely room for people to reassure Anakin. If you know, any of the jedi actually talked about their feelings and it wasn't a taboo subject to have emotion.

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

Anakin Skywalker only cared about himself. If he cared about Padme at all he would have told Yoda she was in danger. But he decided that getting in trouble with Yoda was worse than his wife dying.

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

@@Lilitha11 Where did you get that horseshit? The first fucking lesson we get from a Jedi Master is “stretch out with your feelings” the second is “feel the Force around you” the third is “feel don’t think” and the fifth is “be mindful of your feelings.” People tried to get Anakin to talk. Obi Wan in TCW, Yoda in Episode III, everyone knew he and Padme were fucking. They also knew Anakin was in emotional turmoil. That is why Windu wanted him to sit his ass down in the Temple and stay there. Windu was right. At every turn, in every one of the Prequel movies Mace Windu was right.

[@Lilitha11]

@@Mourtzouphlos240 I didn't say the jedi were consistent. They weren't, they were full of hypocrisy. That said, they were very bad at sharing and dealing with emotions and the general thought was to just bury your emotions as deep as you can and not talk about them. You even say that everyone knew Anakin and Padme were in love, and everyone knew he was in turmoil, but none of the people ever sat down and had a serious conversation with him to sort out those emotions.

[@therebelofchaos1674]

@@Mourtzouphlos240 Can you blame him though when all Yoda can say to him is some 1000s year old Jedi rhetoric about "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose"? That's an easy thing to say when you don't have any attachments to anyone or anything. But they've KNOWN Anakin had formed attachments to people. That's why they initially refused to train him in The Phantom Menace; the "he's too old" referring to the fact that he's old enough to miss his mother. All the other Jedi got taken away before they could form those attachments and were thus indoctrinated easily. And yet, guess what? Even though they KNEW he was too old and had formed attachments and thus would always be at risk of falling, they still trained him anyway. So yes, the Jedi ARE PARTIALLY at least, at fault. Don't get me wrong, I like the Jedi, but they absolutely were flawed. Especially the order under Yoda, who got so attached at the hip to the Republic that they forgot what they existed for: A) Keeping the peace B) Serving the will of the force C) protecting, serving, and nurturing all life and extinguishing those who are only there to destroy and extinguish all life (the Sith). Instead they ended up A) Keeping the Republic's peace/being a mercenary group at the beck and call of the Republic B) Serving the will of the Republic/The will of the Jedi council C) They ended up doing this one but did it under the misguided notions of the above 2.

[@gregviews]

So yall are still forgetting it was dooku that doomed the jedi order? He literally told qui gon before he left for naboo that a threat is on naboo and he can't help him, if qui gon never died anakin would've never fell dooku was the one to doom the jedi not to mention dooku also erased kamino from the archives

[@Kataquan]

He was a Sith and out of the jedi order by that point, so that's ultimately a different conversation than why the jedi shot themselves in the foot.

[@tronovonflidder775]

@@Kataquan Literally every main character that was involved is to blame, including all the fan favourites. It's a tough pill to swallow, but it ain't all on Mace. Windu didn't even want Anakin to be trained as he was too old, which would have saved them, and he was kind of right. He also was the one to actually defeat Sidious, and was going to kill him, which would have saved them as well, etc.

[@jmmproductions6741]

@@Kataquan Out of the Jedi Order, sure, but Dooku wasn't a Sith yet. So long as Maul was still the Apprentice of Sidious, there was no room for Dooku yet. After Maul though, when Dooku pledged to Sidious and became Lord Tyrannus, he became a Sith.

[@gregviews]

@tronovonflidder775 every character had a part to play but if dooku never created the clones and set up his padawan to die the jedi order would've never fell they would've took alot of losses but they would've been able to rebuild

[@mathies3598]

He WARNED qui gon "i will not be there to protect you" because he was not on that mission. How is that his fault? Its the council who didn't take the thread that both Dooku and Qui Gon had alerted them of seriously.

[@blakereed1654]

Mace Windu did really well up until the 3rd movie but even I have to step back and realize that I can’t blame him for not trusting Anakin because Anakin just flat out wasn’t trustworthy. Also, it wasn’t entirely Ashoka’s business to know about the council’s affairs because she refused to be a Jedi until the time was right: no Jedi business card, no Jedi business. The only thing I blame Windu for is that he went about everything in a typical Jedi manner, in the shadows and in the confidence of others that thought like him; he was never upfront about his fears with Anakin and it ultimately cost him his life.

[@natedagreat19]

Let’s all be honest here, Anakin was pretty much coddled his entire career. As far as Jedi go, Obi-wan was the most chill guy in the whole Order. He didn’t gave Anakin a hard time and he was very forgiving with Anakin’s habitual tendency to do whatever the hell he felt like doing at any given time. Anakin was the Jedi equivalent of Top Gun’s Maverick, he was so fucking good he felt like he could do anything he wanted to do without risk. That’s a huge level of unpredictability for someone so incredibly powerful. Mace Windu wasn’t wrong. In fact, he was the ONLY guy who kept Anakin in check.

[@justsnortingbutt7821]

I mean anakins eventual turn to the dark side means windu didn't keep shit in check, as far as the individual effect he had on people he was much more political.

[@seevideonow]

She literally WAS a citizen, he was completely right. You wouldn't let your ex employee into your private meetings and the fact that they even entertained her and give her troops was a huge sign of trust. People also criticize Obi-Wan during those episodes for valuing the Chancellor over Mandolore, but Ashoka was wrong there too, based off what they knew why would the prioritize a random planet over the defacto leader of the Galaxy? Could you imagine how it would look to the average person if the Jedi were seen prioritizing a black ops attack on Maul on Maul over saving Palpatine? Things like this are why I like Ashoka, she's not flawless, she's not a Mary Sue, she's clearly made mistakes. We only demonize what Windu did in retrospect. Palpatine designed the war so that the Jedi were going lose from every angle, the last bad batch episode showed how good he was at doing this.

[@darthbane3937]

It's partly his tone. When he said I'm sorry it sounded like he really wasn't. If he had said something along the lines of the counsel is not willing to discuss the matter with someone not in the Jedi order or the counsel in a polite way that would be understandable. I can see your point as well but that was clear ribbing because he didn't do what she wanted. Also when that black ops target is a Sith lord it should get more care. Mace was on Coruscant so could've helped rescue Palps as well. Wouldn't that have screwed up his plans for having Anakin kill Dooku if that had happened. Yes, Dooku would still be dead but the guilt Anakin had for killing him helped push him to the dark side.

[@LaloSalamancaGaming69]

Yeah,he was “right” and now he and the entire jedi order are fucking dead now Bravo!

[@kicapanmanis1060]

Agree mate. Windu wasn't being very Jedi-like but everyone was on edge and Ahsoka did leave the order afterall of her own accord. Why? Cos the Jedi thought she was guilty because evidence pointed it? The nerve of them!! How dare they use evidence as opposed to blindly believing one of their own!

[@kicapanmanis1060]

@@LaloSalamancaGaming69 He did the right thing based on the info available to him. Not everyone has the benefit of hindsight and be a Monday quarterback.

[@Mateocabrera2389]

@@kicapanmanis1060 thats not the reason people are upset. It’s the fact they are blindly kissing the senate’s ass

[@georgepurdy7823]

It’s Operational security; she isn’t Jedi Paduwan Ashoka Tano, she is just Ashoka Tano. It’s the same with a real military; a veteran doesn’t need to know when, where, why, or how their old unit is doing something or deploying. It seems cold & brash but that’s JEDI master Windu upholding operational security.

[@slate8409]

Except the Jedi are able to choose how and when that rule gets bent based on who they believe need to know that information. Operational security is good and all right up until it starts interfering with the ability of others to do their job. Trust goes both ways and Ahsoka stuck her neck out on Mandalore when she was under absolutely no obligation to, handling a problem the Jedi didn't have the resources to deal with. She may not have been a Jedi herself but she WAS integrated into the command structure in a similar way. What Windu did was straight up petty and personal. It had nothing to do with protocol or being professional.

[@evandugas7888]

I agree but they literally just sent her in to capture a very high value target.

[@slate8409]

@@evandugas7888 They did more than that. It wasn't official but they gave her command of an entire battle group. Capital ships, troops, armor, aerial. They didn't just send her to take a VIP, it was a siege. Whether it was official or not they had integrated her into the command structure again, and fact of the matter is that trust had to go both ways. The lose nothing by giving her that information and they're in a position to do so - to the point that they were willing to inform her that Obi-wan had gone to Utupau, a sensitive enough op that no one outside of the Chancellor's office and the Council was supposed to know about it. If they could inform her of that without concern then what Mace did here was nothing short of petty and personal, with absolutely no bearing on actual security concerns.

[@georgepurdy7823]

@@slate8409 would them telling her they where planning a coup d’état on the republic’s head of state change her battlefield situation? Ashoka was practically a mercenary at that point. Military trust is also understanding you don’t get all the information unless you, the individual, actually NEED to know about it. She also failed to pass off the intel that she gained from Maul. Yoda was the last on the hologram, if she could swallow her pride & pathetic feelings “oh he called me a Citizen, boo hoo” and passed on the vital information like a military subordinate should; maybe there could have been pause for thought. Never be the highest rank with a secret.

[@slate8409]

@@georgepurdy7823 It had nothing to do with pride on Ahsoka's part and more a complete lack of trust. These were the same people who threw her to the wolves, and Mace has been antagonistic to Anakin for years. The moment they took that stance with her it eliminated any possibility that they'd use the information in a productive manner - or worse, complicate matters for Anakin. Had Obi-wan been the one speaking to her I have little doubt that Ahsoka probably would've passed the information on. It's not necessarily Windu refusing the share the information but the manner in which he did so. Putting aside that Jedi are supposed to keep their feelings out of professional matters (which Windu has consistently failed to do with a LONG history of involving his personal opinions and grudges in decisions), you do not antagonize people that put their necks on the line for you. It was a dick move and unnecessarily combative, especially when there's already friction involved. And here's the thing. It wasn't that Ahsoka was a security risk. The Council had no problem telling Ahsoka that Obi-Wan was on Utapau hunting Grievous - something that wasn't supposed to leave the Council chambers or Chancellor's office save for trusted individuals. If they felt comfortable telling Ahsoka about that what Mace did here comes off as nothing short of petty and unprofessional. More than anything it seems more like Mace being bitter and taking personal offense at Ahsoka not returning to the Jedi order, and this is on the heels of him refusing to own up to the idea that the Council was wrong in expelling her from the order - instead trying to pass it off as the will of the Force and absolve himself of the responsibility of making a bad call. I don't blame Ahsoka in the slightest for not trusting the Council with Windu on it as a guiding voice, especially with Yoda off planet and effectively leaving him in charge.

[@cald1421]

Mace is a stand in for everything that was wrong with the order. Careerist, interventionist, political and divorced from the force. They needed total reform and, in a cruel way, Anakin delivered.

[@okamikitsune1024]

Didn't mean he had to go as far as killing the children too, though. Man could have literally started his own order from scratch with them, and thankfully those kids were still young enough to have been taught from a different angle. The rest, unfortunately, were already set in their ways (save for MAYBE a handful of exceptions) and therefore had to go. The order had become a parasite - a disease, if you need to call it such - and it got bad enough that the body carrying said disease needed to be burned. Again, the children SHOULD NOT have been included in that.

[@WileeCoyote1516]

​@@okamikitsune1024 those kids had been with the order since birth though and in Anakins mind they were already too far gone in their indoctrination to be reformed.

[@adambump5297]

Windu is extremely dedicated to the Jedi Order for better and for worse but he’s ultimately not a bad person he’s just very abrasive.

[@TJ-fe7rr]

Absolutely. Mace Windu was a good man

[@adambump5297]

@@TJ-fe7rr True enough he was willing to risk his own life by guessing the final number of a bomb's deactivation code just to save some lives only a good person would do something like that.

[@macwelch8599]

Oh, I disliked Mace Windu long before this

[@questworldiangreenknight7455]

Lol

[@ThatAntonio_]

I liked mace but there were moments were I didn’t like him

[@macwelch8599]

Losing all his hair made his brain fall out and turned him into an idiot

[@RoyalMudcrab]

Canon Windu is almost universally a c***. Shatterpoint gave him depth, but that's Legends.

[@kevind3974]

In legends he deserved his position. In canon he barely deserved to be Called a knight

[@thesharpercoder]

Ahsoka could have ignored Windu, but she decided not to tell the Jedi Council what she had learned.

[@1Invinc]

The issue with Mace is that he is too paternal. He wishes to handle everything himself in order to spare others from the danger of being in high risks situations, counter-productively putting everyone else at risk. Ashoka is no longer a Jedi, she need not risk putting herself in dangerous Jedi situations. Anakin had just revealed Chancellor Palpatine as the Sith. He need not risk himself going close to Palpatine again. Windu will handle this. Any parent can understand this sentiment. My baby no doesn't need to do this. I'll handle it. And like every parent, Windu should have realized, his peers aren't babies.

[@realjoemavro]

I wouldn't call Anakin or Ahsoka "his peers," they are technically below him in rank. I agree with the first part though; Mace should have waited for Yoda before confronting Palpatine and he should have either spoke to Ahsoka in a less condescending way or held his tongue and let Yoda address her question.

[@1Invinc]

@@realjoemavro "Technically". Temple Masters, Council Members and Grand Masters are not a higher rank, rather First among Equals, at least in that particular era.

[@realjoemavro]

@@1Invinc "First among equals" sounds kind of paradoxical to me. And if that is what they are meant to be, then they do a poor job of practicing it.

[@1Invinc]

@@realjoemavro They were. It is credited as a huge reason why the Jedi Order fell.

[@Capsuleer7]

Mace is one of those incredibly smug Jedi that you encounter many times in SWTOR. Hell, he's the stereotypical "lawful stupid" Paladin we see in Dungeons and Dragons.

[@bloodocean8389]

My thoughts exactly

[@lostowl5821]

Thats for the council to discuss

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

She called herself "a citizen" thirty fucking seconds earlier. Anakin Skywalker was a grown fucking man who knew right from wrong and chose to do wrong. Even *he* takes responsibility for his actions, why does this fandom take every chance to absolve a person hundreds of times worse than Hitler?

[@DraculaCronqvist]

Because "muh redemption". It's for the same reason that people insist that just because you killed the one dude more evil than you, all is forgiven.

[@douglasmonroe7417]

One thing I noticed about Mace Windu is despite him quote on quote following the Jedi rules, he's hypocritical. Like he doesn't trust Anikin even after Anikin tells him Palatine's a Sith Lord. He doesn't even investigate. He just decides to put him under arrest. That and he doesn't show any mercy which goes against the Jedi rules. He doesn't even acknowledge Anakin's right. That Palps should be trialed. And Yoda should be more disappointed in Mace than Anikin because Mace is the main reason why Anikin became Darth Vader. I would imagine Asoka probably found out and she still tries to reach out. If she hadn't have left, I'm sure Anikin wouldn't have turned. But at the same time, She probably saw how corrupted the Jedi were. They really weren't much better than the Sith. They very easily could've been worse. But she didn't take either side. So I guess it does make sense. I think Yoda would've let her back in. But when she left again, he'd probably ask her to leave her Lightsaber. Those would've been fair rules. Really though, Mace Windu is the main reason for the downfall of the Jedi. People say Jar Jar is the reason as he gave consecutive control to the Chanslor Palpatine. But I'd argue that Had Mace or some of the Jedi followed the code without being Hypocrites, they might have been more relevant. So yeah. Mace Windu is the main Culprit for The Jedi's Downfall.

[@jaybird0312]

Anakin is just as much a hypocrite.

[@douglasmonroe7417]

@@jaybird0312 To a point. Yeah he married Padame and all that. But technically it was in secret. My augrument to it would be Anikin probably did follow the code for the last ten years and kinda got fed up not earning a seat on the council. But like I said, hardly most the Jedi followed the code anyways. So there's that.

[@mayervietoris9444]

I initially wasn't going to say anything, but after reading through enough of these comments I felt someone had to come to Mace Windu's defense because I think there is a strong case for him in the context of the Jedi Order, their principles, and the structure of the Universe's setting. Plain and simple, Anakin's fall to the dark side was almost a foregone conclusion that Yoda and the rest of the council predicted in Episode I. When they interrogated Anakin they sensed all of the makings for a fragile Jedi, susceptible to influence because of his age and his attachments to his mother and to Padme. Criticize as we often do the philosophy of the Jedi surrounding attachment and passion and emotion, these teaching exist to prevent members of the order from ever falling to the dark side and becoming monsters seeking the destruction of the Order and the galaxy writ large. Anakin was only trained because it was Qui-Gon's dying wish - because Anakin very well might have been the Chosen One. Though Anakin possessed great potential and eventually matured into a great warrior, a Jedi Master is more than someone who can swing a lightsaber, Anakin was never able to master himself (c.f. Episode II where he confides in Padme about his thirst for power and goes on to slaughter innocent Sand People out of vengeance). Anakin never earned the respect of his fellow Jedi because he wasn't dedicated to their teachings - flouting just about every rule they had. But this was to be expected of someone as damaged as Anakin was and someone who was not born into the Jedi tradition. Moreover, Anakin's connection to Palpatine becomes an even greater point of contention and mutual distrust, Anakin chooses the shady Chancellor over his family in the Jedi. As Anakin grows closer to the Chancellor, he distances himself more from the Jedi. The Jedi, of course, distrust Palpatine because he was able to stay in power far longer than his term allowed him to, receive Emergency Powers, and extend the Clone Wars indefinitely. The Jedi could see that the dark side swirled about the Chancellor and despite all this Anakin chose him over the Jedi. Although this should come as no surprise as in Episodes II and III Anakin expresses disdain for democracy and diplomacy in favor of autocracy and continued war. Despite all of this, you seem to forget that Mace Windu expresses his trust of Anakin when he informs Mace of his revelation that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. For those who think Anakin should have been guarded or left with someone to support him emotionally (???), Anakin only cared about Padme's safety and because of Palpatine's manipulation of his weakness he tied Padme's survival to Palpatine's. No matter who they left with Anakin, if he sensed the Chancellor could be in danger, he would have murdered them like he murdered the younglings in the temple. Perhaps the Order's greatest mistake was believing that, in their hubris, they could successfully indoctrinate and train someone as volatile as Anakin. They were ultimately proven correct about why Jedi should not form attachments.

[@ivancerecer5758]

To be fair, Ahsoka called herself "a concerned citizen" Like she gave back sass at them before

[@BallPlayer17127]

She literally call herself citizen lmao and all he did was throw it back at her

[@kupamanduka9218]

Exactly. Like dude was a stickler for the rules and was like "You either in or out, no hanging in the between. I guess you chose out when you called yourself citizen"

[@SetoShadowVT]

That's Mace's problem, he holds grudges. The Order welcomed Ahsoka back even if it was for one last mission and Mace is passive aggressive towards her.

[@andrewdyckman3616]

Ashoka literally defeated and captured Maul and she gets scolded. How about thanking her for even going out of her way to help when she wasn’t even obligated anymore at that point in time.

[@Sm00th29]

Ahsoka is a walking mcguffin mixed with a Mary Sue. She spends half the show teaching Anakin things and then creates her own class of Jedi. Oh and Maul is so whipped on this mediocre show they completely ruined the character.

[@johanretard3615]

​@@Sm00th29 insane truth moment

[@marley7868]

@@Sm00th29 ruined his character? what I don't like him being in the show I prefer him dying at the bottom of that pit on naboo but no seriously what character he was angry guy who tried to run over a child for fun and killed qui gon jin he didn't have a character he was literaly generaic sith goon man with cool sword

[@Sm00th29]

Uhh he sucks as a character because Filoni sucks at writing. This show was their chance to fix him and they failed. But nothing must stand in the way of Ahsoka becoming the greatest Jedi that ever lived. Embarrassing.

[@Sm00th29]

Also want to add that Filoni plays favorites far too much. Bad Batch was not worthy of a show and now Ahsoka and the Rebels characters are taking over the TV shows.

[@wesleywhetstone5484]

Mace was completely in the right. Change my mind. Appeasement wouldn’t have changed anakin’s choice and Ashoka can’t have the benefits of a Jedi without the duties as well

[@sirhorace8883]

Rightttt. It’s totally Mace Windu’s fault for not wanting to discuss this with a citizen. Ahsoka is not a Jedi anymore! She’s not entitled to ANY information regarding Jedi or the Jedi council. If she wanted to save ani then she shouldn’t have left the order. They are doing her a favor by talking to her even this much.

[@Lilitha11]

She could of also told them anyway, if she cared to.

[@fandomking8939]

Then he shouldn't have brought it up with her present. And the way he delivered it was completely condescending. Wake up, Windu was being a dick.

[@Dont_care_4_U]

@@fandomking8939no mace was right Asoka just has “main carecter bias” on her side

[@KingOfLesbia]

I mean the jedi order was going to allow her to be executed for crimes she didnt commit so.... and Mace is petty bastard we've seen that on many occasions. the jedi of this time period were blinded by dogma and their own arrogance and stubbornness how dare a lowley Citizen try and offer them some insight

[@cyberbenjaminsw1131]

"If she wanted to save ani then she shouldn’t have left the order." Anakin wasn't in danger when she left the Jedi order.

[@shahzebhasan9995]

This makes Ahsoka look worse. Imagine withholding war-changing information over a perceived insult...how petty can you get!

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Thanks for the vid. Yeh Mace is brusque. I interpreted it though as he knew Ani and Ahsoka were close and felt that Ahsoka would be loyal to Ani. So he froze her out. He couldn’t expect her to be loyal to the council either after how badly the council treated her and she didn’t come running back like the boss she was.

[@grifterx76]

I think part of Mace’s attitude problem stems from his vaapad usage. Remember he is the only Jedi that flirts with the dark side and openly uses his emotions when he fights. Vaapad make him generally a more emotional and abrasive person.

[@corruptangel6793]

I would say it's the exact opposite. It is his rigid mentality, his absolute belief in the Jedi that allows him to not lose himself to Vaapad.

[@musicbrush9231]

The only Jedi of his time, yes, but Luke not only alloud his Jedi to study the dark side, but to use it in some cases. He encouraged his era to engage in marriage, building families, learning about the dark side so they could be strong and understand what they were up against. Yoda's era was blind, weak, and fearful, and that's why it was so easy for Palpatine to destroy them.

[@corruptangel6793]

@Music Brush Luke allowed that during the Vong war but quickly reverted once he realized how the darkside was slowly corrupting his order. He still allows marriage and all that, but practice of the darkside was shut down. Only Jacen refused and well...

[@jtnachos16]

No, the usage of his vaapad causes the OPPOSITE problem there. Because of how he has to flirt with his emotions during combat, out of fear of losing control, he keeps an ironclad grip on his impulses, leading to an overly stubborn and 'pragmatic' approach that cuts off empathy. Quite literally, he feels that with Vaapad involved, he CANNOT let himself second-guess. On a side note, while Mace was abrasive AF in how he handled it, going 'you are not part of the order, infosec says we shouldn't talk about future plans with you' is perfectly reasonable. Rex's reaction wasn't to the implied meaning, but to the way it was said.

[@zachcollier7092]

@@musicbrush9231you say easy to destroy them like it was decades of planning and him almost losing his life once or twice and his plain being literally seconds away from failing multiple times

[@benjaminvega7186]

Couple things, all Mace does is point out that she made her choice. She can't eat her cake and have it too. But also, her acting like a middle schooler not getting their way directly results in the sequence of events that gets all the jedi killed.

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

Finally! Someone else gets it.

[@burningxnecro]

"She can't have her cake and eat it too." But the council can? Use Ahsoka to bring in Maul and then push her out, reminding her why she can't trust them to do the right thing.

[@benjaminvega7186]

@@burningxnecro are you under the impression that ahsoka has dibs on Maul? Anakin had her brought in to help Rex, kinda like deputizing her. Even if she had the right to keep Maul, and she doesn't, her keeping vital information to the war effort because her feelings were hurt, is far worse than Mace reminding her of her choice

[@Mateocabrera2389]

@@benjaminvega7186 it’s not cause her feelings were hurt it’s cause she doesn’t trust them. If they were so easily ready to throw her under the bus in s5 then she has every reason to believe they would do the same to Anakin if she shared that info. Also how the hell is she supposed to know that Maul was right.

[@teamofone1219]

They abandoned her the moment they suspected her of treason, and they have the balls to treat her like that? No wonder these jedi failed.

[@imperatricedelaconstellati8523]

They didn't fail, they were genocided

[@cabooseisthevehicledestroy]

Yoda never did, he unfortunately just couldn't do anything because arguing with Mace was like fighting with a brick wall so

[@imperatricedelaconstellati8523]

@@cabooseisthevehicledestroy When did you see that?

[@cabooseisthevehicledestroy]

@@imperatricedelaconstellati8523 The fact that Yoda defended Ashoka in the trial, while off screen there were only three masters that defended her Obi-Wan, Plo, and Yoda. And in Yoda's vision he smiled when he saw Ashoka and Mace, he missed Ashoka.

[@imperatricedelaconstellati8523]

@@cabooseisthevehicledestroy So it's only one occurence where Mace wasn't the only one disagreeing with Yoda and when the Council was dealing with a big mess and didn't even have a real choice in the matter. And you said yourself that Yoda see Ahsoka with Mace, why would he want the two together if he think Mace were at fault or a brick wall?

[@parkerdixon-word6295]

Okay, so context- Mace and the jedi are speaking among themselves *earlier in this scene* about a potential coup against the Chancellor- *they're in deep* , planning sketchy shit, and playing a dangerous game, one that they already know could destroy the Jedi. Ashoka, at this moment in time, has denied her allegiance to the Jedi. She is asking questions about a subject in which Mace would be a damned fool to share with anyone outside of the Council, let alone someone who *just told them* that she doesn't work for them anymore. Is he being rude? yes, but he's also on a knife's edge with the survival of the Jedi, and Galactic Democracy, on the line, planning a fucking coup. Mace shouldn't be trusting her with the whole story- he can't trust her not to take the Chancellor's side over the Jedi at this point. The galaxy is on the precipice of *another civil war* if Palpatine doesn't surrender power. Information is on a goddamned need-to-know basis. Just because Ashoka is our girl and we love her does not mean Mace Windu should bend over backwards to give her information he does not know she'll use in the Jedi's best interests.

[@squishyturtles1648]

Bro literally let emotions cloud his judgement

[@neofulcrum5013]

He’s such a badass Jedi but also such a jerk

[@georgepurdy7823]

More just to the book with security, & tradition. He is a hard ass cause some organizations actually need someone like that. Especially if we are talking Military operations.

[@EmptyMan000]

@@georgepurdy7823 None of that changes the fact he's a jerk, you're just trying to present it as justifiable to be one given the circumstances.

[@georgepurdy7823]

@@EmptyMan000 some jobs need jerks. If a judge is just a push over then how is Justice served? If a Sargent is always nice how do they maintain discipline? If your Manager allows you to show up hours late every day and pay you full days wages how dose the company make profit? The world needs jerks; not push-overs.

[@desertfoxxx98]

​@@georgepurdy7823no such thing as justice.

[@bbtwork]

Mace is overhated. (Blah blah mean to Anakin who shows he wasn't ready to be a master). He just wanted to protect the Jedi order. I love Ahsoka but after leaving, you're not just going to openly tell her (and prove her right) that we're about to commit treason by overthrowing Palpatine!

[@jaieregilmore971]

Mace doesn’t get the respect he deserves.

[@bigboy3454]

Finally, my kind of people. Mace Windu was an incredible Master Jedi who tried his best to uphold the Jedi order. Honestly, if Mace had trained Anakin, Anakin would have become an incredibly disciplined and powerful Jedi. The more I watched the clone wars, the more I realized how spoiled Anakin and Ahsoka were.

[@bbtwork]

@@bigboy3454 I like Mace as a character but he was far from perfect. Too rigid in the Jedi code. I disagree with him being Anakik's master. He'd still marry Padme and break the rules but probably would have hidden it better haha.

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

@@jaieregilmore971 Because Mace didn't prove himself worthy of respect from the fanbase, lol.

[@jaieregilmore971]

@@willfanofmanyii3751 The problem is the fans didn’t have a chance to see his point of view.

[@ryanmulcahey9810]

I get where Mace was coming from. They’re in the middle of a war and desperately trying to find Sidious you’re either in or you’re out. And if you’re not all the way in it means you’re out.

[@alexwyckoff8962]

Mace Windu honestly just gets a bad rep because Filoni writes the Jedi so one-sidedly. Did Mace have his flaws? Sure. But he was right to be careful especially concerning Anakin.

[@theravenlordmasterofthevib8991]

Still doesn’t excuse his attitude though

[@littlebigeyes3096]

@@theravenlordmasterofthevib8991 True, though an attitude problem is pretty standard for most humans and it's not like killing children like Anakin did.

[@sillyking1991]

@@theravenlordmasterofthevib8991 what attitude? seriously, where did he misbehave in this scene. in the context to this scene ahsoka made it clear that she was just doing her duty as a citizen...so he treats her like he would a citizen. wheres the attitude?

[@cs3473]

Mace Windu has a particular talent for being Arrogantly Tone Deaf. It was his comments to Ahsoka that made her go, "You know what? I'm done with this... stuff" and leave the Jedi Order after she was exonerated in the Temple Bombing incident in Clone Wars. And in turn that was the moment that was I think the final straw for Anakin and his belief in the Institutions of the Republic to do the right thing. Honestly I wish someone had the gumption to tell Master Windu to his face that he should shut his freaking piehole.

[@rootbeard9123]

Another, somewhat final, example of the Order's arrogance and pride leading to their downfall

[@gabrielmendivil5]

Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Tiin and Koth were the only Jedis not to fight the Clones

[@denifnaf5874]

Anakin? I know he got renaamed to vader but he still had blue lightsaber

[@RickyJC]

“Dogmatic narrow views of the Jedi” really does pin the tail on the donkey.

[@DarthPrime52]

It does actually. Mace and the Council did Ahsoka wrong then he acts petty to her because she didn’t come back when the said "My bad" despite everything she just did for them. Mace Windu is there to embody everything wrong with the Jedi Order.

[@anqareliouth2921]

It would be wrong to say one person embodies everything wrong, because the problems were not caused by a person, but they were systemic. The entire political system of the Republic has influenced their order in a way that forced it to change into a semi-political semi-religious organization, and if you ever learned about any theocracy for more than 5 minutes, you'd know that religion and politics don't mix very well.

[@DarthPrime52]

@@anqareliouth2921 I’m not saying all the problems are because of Mace Windu I’m saying the show used him to represent the failings of the Jedi Order as he is a product of that system and now sits at the head of the Council.

[@anqareliouth2921]

@@DarthPrime52 I'm not saying this is what you said. I left that comment for anyone else who will read the discussion in order to better clear misunderstanding that may be that is that Mace is the root. I should have been more clear about that.

[@ThreshmanEntertainment]

Yea to be fair, Ashoka DID make it a huge point to assert that she's a Citizen. So they acted as so

[@WhiteRanger1298]

Let's be honest. If your not currently in the order there are certain things that he literally cannot talk to you about.

[@ShaxTheDemon]

What's funny is Mace intended to arrest Palpatine until he saw the power that Palpatine had over Anakin, that's when he decided to kill him

[@jaybird0312]

"It's not the Jedi way" says the guy who beheaded an unarmed (LITERALLY) Count Dooku because he was "too dangerous to be kept alive" 🙄 fucking hate Anakin.

[@VestedUTuber]

@@jaybird0312 Then you have zero understanding of Anakin's character, nor how Palpatine manipulated him, nor even bothered to pay attention to the scene. Anakin outright said that he shouldn't kill Count Dooku when he was ordered to, but eventually caved. He didn't do that in cold blood. I think the sequels are a better fit for you with how dumbed down they are.

[@McFrozenNuggets]

Ahsoka did say she did her duty as a citizen, not as a Jedi. So Mace obviously obliged with calling her a citizen. Though he didn't have to be so cold about it.

[@majimagaming934]

The scene that made me hate him was when he told Ashoka that her proving her innocence was her “Great Jedi Knight test”

[@jeremydale4548]

Ha! Yeah right. She had almost nothing and he knew it.

[@AverageCommentor]

It's true though. That's how the force works, and she clearly failed the test, which among many things caused Anakin to fall. Mace is a better Jedi than Ahsoka.

[@dogguy8603]

Can we also remember it wasn't totally her choice to leave the jedi order, all she said could be broken down like this "So yah we kicked you out like 2 days ago, and sent you to a show trial that would lead to certain death, but your totally invited back"

[@khalilismail666]

Are we also going to ignore that master Windu was right?

[@imperatordrakon6488]

Yes. He cause offended half the Fandom precious baby.

[@vanguardCSG]

i really love windu's personality, it shows in the moments like this how he is not just good jedi who uses light side of the force like all others council members, but is being aggresive in a lot of moments and stands by his own opinion. it is the thing that helped in destroying the jedi order, but absolutely not the thing that destroyed it. in my opinion he just uses both sides of the force to his advantage, and he is not the bad ot the good character, he just the chad who doesn't listen to some kids and believes that kids would listen to him, which is stupid. but he seems to be the most interesting character from the Jedi Order when everyone else just looks like a bunch of blind elders.

[@slate8409]

Except.... it kind of is. Mace might not have fallen to the dark side in the same explicit manner that Quinlan Vos did but his way of thinking was a microchasm of everything that had gone wrong with the Jedi Order at this point, right alongside Yoda's more dogmatic approach to how the Order instructed their students. But Mace? His actions in Tales of the Jedi were one of the huge turning points for ruining Dooku's view of the Order and its failings, in many ways helping turn him to Palpatine later. Mace was also one of the more outspoken individuals who indirectly led to Qui-gon's death, all but cementing that turn - Mace was so arrogant and self assure that the Jedi would've sensed the Sith's return that he basically guaranteed the Council's unwillingness to hear Qui-gon out and take appropriate measures with the information they were given. This level of arrogance and self assurance was also what made him so convinced that Dooku couldn't have committed acts as violent as attempted assassination years later based on his preconceived notions of a man he hadn't seen in nearly a decade by that point, nevermind the possibility that Dooku couldn't have turned to the Dark Side. And this is to say /nothing/ of his mistreatment of Anakin. Mace Windu was probably the single individual most responsible for driving Anakin to the other camp, and this scene with Ahsoka basically underscores why. When it comes right down to it Windu was a bad Jedi. Yes, I said it. The man was petty and vindictive. He let personal feelings cloud his opinions more often than not and his personal distrust of Anakin based on nothing beyond the boy's age and background would poison elements of the Council against him for years, and that distrust was in large part the opportunity Palpatine needed to insert himself in Anakin's life. Not once did Windu stop to reflect on his actions during any of this, leading to the classic meme. "Am I allowing my personal feelings to cloud my judgement and drive an individual I don't like to someone I trust even less?" "No, it's Anakin who is wrong." And in my personal opinion? At the end there? He absolutely fell to the dark side and let it overtake him when he was about to execute Palpatine. Yes, Palpatine was a Sith Lord and yes, the corruption of the courts and the senate was absolutely a concern. But at the end of the day he was about to kill someone who, Force powers aside, was disarmed and beaten by all outward appearances. His very attempt to remove Palpatine from power in the way he did was not the act of a Jedi - it was something far more akin to what the Sith of a few millennia ago might have done, and in many ways only served to illustrate how far the Jedi had fallen by that point of the Clone Wars.

[@LynamVlogs]

Damn, if only she didn’t call herself a citizen…

[@anqareliouth2921]

It's not that calling her a citizen was bad, it's the way he called her a citizen. He said "citizen" in a tone that implies her being a citizen means she is below him. If he were to say "I am sorry, but only members of this order can discuss this due to secrecy, and you are not a member, rather, a citizen" in a respectful tone, it would have been better. But the way he said it with a tone of superiority was the problem.

[@Mourtzouphlos240]

@@anqareliouth2921 Oh, so you have a problem with a Black Man’s tone?

[@anqareliouth2921]

@@Mourtzouphlos240 This has nothing to do with him being black. This has to do with the way he emphasized the word "citizen" in a way that makes it seem as if her being a citizen makes her lesser than him.

[@W1BH]

@@anqareliouth2921 in military operation, yes

[@anqareliouth2921]

@@W1BH The military should never disrespect the people it supposedly aims to protect

[@matthewmann8969]

The thing about Anakin is yeah he does make the ultimate decision to turn to the dark side of his free will as a adult but there are many factors that played into it. 1. He was born as a slave and his Mother was the only person to guide and nurture and heal and take care of him at least until he was nine. 2. Watto was a cruel slave Master that often berated both him and Shmi. 3. Qui Gon dying after all Qui Gon was the father figure Anakin needed who actually cared for him as a actual person or being and not as a tool like Palpatine. 4. The death of his Mother in such a long and painful way too. 5. Ahsoka exiting the order. 6. Padmes lack of good communication. 7. Obi Wan not being too appreciative of him and often giving Anakin the tough love attitude and being less like a Father or even grandfatherly figure and more like a older brother. 8. Mace Windus constant put downs whether meant to be intentional or accidental or neutral. 9. Him not being able to talk to Qui Gons ghost very often for guidance due to The Wills. 10. Him having to hide his secret marriage with Padme. 11. The Clone Wars battle field experiences. 12. Palpatines manipulations and constant approval something he lacked since Qui Gon became one with the force for the most part. 13. Also lacked a second Motherly figure that person could of been Yaddle Or Shaak Ti Or even Jocasta Nu. 14. Had so many friends and people he respected lose there life's. 15. Was often bullied and teased when he began his training as a initiate and for a while as a Padawan too. 16. Padme getting preggers near the end of the war on top of him getting visions of her potential death and possibly their offspring also. 17. Him not being granted the rank of Master to get access to the restricted section of the Jedi Library to look for info to possibly be able to prevent the loses of Padme and there unborn children. 18. Mace Windu telling Anakin that he has not yet earned his trust. 19. Mace telling Anakin to wait in the council chambers and not allowing Anakin to come with them

[@6aft3r23]

First time mace couldn't tell you what to do as a master, so he does petty shit to make you feel bad

[@Lilhank5101]

Never been a fan of Windu for many reasons, but the biggest was the fact that he treated Anakin poorly when he needed help

[@Beppo85]

Tbh so did Yoda.

[@jaybird0312]

Mace was right about Anakin... also, funny how Anakin was a hypocrite; he killed Dooku "because he was too dangerous to be left alive" but Palps needed a fair trial because "it's not the Jedi way" 🙄

[@Lilhank5101]

@@jaybird0312 i know its a bit counterintuitive

[@pleaseenteraname69]

@@jaybird0312 well there’s context for one. Anakin helped palpatine because he might have the answer to save padme. I think if he palpatine didn’t say that Anakin would’ve let mace kill him. (probably) plus palpatine convinced Anakin to kill Dooku. Edit: and not only that palpatine was mentor to Anakin whereas Dooku was a enemy right from the start.

[@thehybrid3947]

I believe Mace wasn't entirely to blame for this I mean Ahsoka left and only helped with Maul and Mandalore because of them changing Rex's Rank as well as the fact it probably wouldn't have changed Anakin going to save the chancellor except from maybe giving the warning early if Mace and the Jedi let Ahsoka in to the details and she shared her details

[@fandomking8939]

She left because the Jedi threw her to the wolves a d Windu not only refused to apologize, but tried to claim it was the will of the Force. This was just another example of Windu being a dick.

[@proper7439]

Ahsoka was the reason Rex's rank was changed in the first place. If she hadn't come to Anakin and Obi Wan for help dealing with Maul he would've gone back to coruscant and raided the temple with the other half of the 501st.

[@fivezedits2486]

@@fandomking8939 When wasn't he a dick? lmao

[@peterphilipson2589]

@@fandomking8939 Yup, in that scene where Anakin and Plo koon apologized, Saesee Tiin and Ki-Adi-Mundi admired and praised her strength and resilience. It seemed she will rejoin and then Mace opened his mouth... even the music went from a somewhat hopefull tone to a dark one.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Mace Windu always reminded me of Aldaris from StarCraft.

[@ragingmollusk2640]

and yet, this scene does not make me hate Mace Windu.

[@colorgreen8728]

Windu was harsh, because he didn’t know how else to even deal with anakin

[@TY-km8hj]

I acc think a lot of ppl are just thinking with their feelings rather than with their heads when it comes to that moment with mace and even Mace's actions overall. Like ahsoka said herself she's a citizen, she doesn't want to come back and be a jedi and the council is legit talking about committing treason so why would they so openly tell her that and keep her in the loop when by her own admission she isn't one of them let alone a council member. Going beyond that with anakin he certainly shouldn't have been as harsh as he was and should've had some more trust but i see why he also didnt. He knew and understood that anakin was disturbed and a potential threat and if I'm right in the novelisation his shatterpoint is showing him that anakin is legit the focal point but he just wasn't sure exactly how he'd come into play. Mace loved the jedi and the Republic above all else and was willing to do whatever was required to ensure they both survived, even if it meant being harsh and disregarding the jedi way to ensure the sith could not escape. Mace gets too much hate, he's nuanced and is genuinely a brilliant character in star wars.

[@TY-km8hj]

@Trevschan2 she's most definitely protected by filoni. I honestly think she should've died against vader as the way she was brought back wod that realm was just bs. Even tales of the jedi really should've been all about dooku or any other jedi but we got 2 useless ahsoka eps, only good one was her training with the clones as that showed how she survived and also showed anakins irrational fear of losing those he loves and the limits he'd go to ensure it

[@evernight1405]

@Trevschan2 I'm a Ahsoka fan and I know she was in the wrong a few times in season 7. When she talk to Obi-Wan and where she decided to not tell the jedi what maul said about Anakin.

[@TheBigBoss551]

I agree with you 100%

[@TY-km8hj]

@Trevschan2 it's all the bad kind of fan service, it's given cos it will drum up interest rather than what's beat for the acc story. There's a part of me that likes her and luke meeting up but I still feel given how that's come about and a mcguffin being used to save her, I'd rather she didn't

[@Mateocabrera2389]

Brilliant character idk bout that

[@jackmcmorrow9397]

After finding out that Sidious has connections in the Republic, Windu's VERY FIRST RESPONSE is the suggest dissolving the senate and taking direct control of the Republic, to which even Yoda is like "dude wtf no". Windu was everything wrong with the Jedi Order during the fall of the republic; his "self control and detachment" became a hunger for unrestrained power and apathy towards the suffering of others in their war against the Separatists.

[@arionofotherworld]

Mace Windu can deliver what he says very calmly but it does come across as rather emotively driven pettiness at times.

[@BenjaminRoethig]

Mace was the poster boy for Jedi hipocracy.

[@StormStar626]

I don’t know why don’t know why but Disney and Filoni really turned a character trait of Mace’s into the focal point of his character… yes Mace is stern and because of that and Anakin’s relationship with the Chancellor he is extremely careful about how much he trusts Anakin that’s all. In other times in Legends stories he can be quite dry but is a bit less serious and definitely less antagonistic as he is in the clone wars

[@idfkwhatyouwantfromme]

Agreed. I really do feel that it has to do with the rise in secularism. There's fewer people in the western world growing up religious so it's easier to hate a religious group.

[@SilverandCold1x]

“Oh hey, Ahsoka! We were just discussing how we all noticed a darkness surrounding the chancellor and possibly performing a coup d'etat for the greater good, in case he goes back on his word about laying down his senate-approved emergency powers, since we’re about to stick a fork in this suspiciously short and simple galactic war we’re in. That reminds me, seen any Sith Lords around lately? Ones due to appear any moment now…”

[@bryandavidson7375]

I'm on maces side on this cause ahsoka was acting all high and mighty with her psycho pal bo katan. Like she's gonna say to anakin oh your playing politics by rescuing the capital. Nah he's saving a planet. Maul was all and all a peaceful leader of mandalore. Bo katan started it

[@princesseuphemia1007]

For me Windu's worst moment came in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, when he told Anakin to wait for him alone in the Jedi council chamber while he went to confront Sidious, right after seeing that Anakin was clearly having a severe mental breakdown. I'm no Jedi- just an ordinary person and there is no way I would leave someone alone like that if I saw them behaving how Anakin was just then. In a temple full of Jedi all Windu had to do before he left was ask someone to stay with Anakin on his way out but he didn't. He didn't even think of that.

[@florencechang2354]

He's not his mom, dude. And Anakin is an adult and a jedi, who should be able to deal with his emotions properly. It would be better if he asked someone to watch over Anakin, but it's not his responsibility to do so and he had other things aka the Sith lord to worry about.

[@princesseuphemia1007]

@@florencechang2354 Respectfully I strongly disagree. It doesn't matter what their age and how strong that person usually is. If someone is having that severe of a mental breakdown that they can't even speak or stand up and you're able to you should never just leave them alone with that. It's just common sense. I would never do that to another adult and most adults I've known would act the same way too. Even Marines have their breaking point.

[@florencechang2354]

@@princesseuphemia1007 At that moment, Anakin speaks and stands like a normal person (if you watched the movie). He looks upset but not showing any obvious sign of mental breakdown. You know he's having mental breakdown because you're an audience, but Windu doesn't know that. What Windu does is quite alright (=asking an upset colleague not to participate in the fight and wait for the outcome), he doesn't owe Anakin his consolation. Like I said, Anakin is an adult, his mental health is not Windu's responsibility but his own. It's your common sense, not everyone's. And you don't get to decide what common sense is.

[@princesseuphemia1007]

@@florencechang2354 It looks like I need to clarify. If you read my original comment I was referring specifically to the scene in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith which was very different from the film. In the film then yes I absolutely agree with you. There's no way to tell that Anakin is having a mental breakdown. But in the novelization Windu and Anakin share a whole scene together where Windu has to physically move Anakin to somewhere he can sit because he's no longer able to stand and then spend several minutes talking to him just to get him to make eye contact and speak in full sentences to him, and THEN he tells him to wait alone in the Jedi Council chamber while he confronts Sidious. If you haven't read the novelization yet I highly recommend it by the way because it's just a really really good book. :) But I digress. If you saw anyone even say a coworker acting that way would you just leave them all alone like that if you could help it? Even if you don't know the specific reasons why it would also be safe to assume they might be having a seizure or god knows what. That's why I think Windu should have at least asked someone to stay with Anakin on his way out of the temple.

[@florencechang2354]

@@princesseuphemia1007 The book clearly contradicts the third episode. That's messed up. If I were Windy in the book you're referring to, I'd consider eliminating the Sith lord more important and urgent because he could have bailed or tried to do horrible things to the jedis (aka order 66); therefore I'd go to find the Sith lord immediately. I'd try to call someone for Anakin if I got time, but if I don't then he's on his own because the situation is dire. Even in the book you mentioned, I still don't think it's Windu's responsibility to find someone to stay with Anakin. His duty to eliminate the Sith lord and protect the Jedi order is much more important than consoling his colleagues. And I don't think he thought Anakin being alone would be a problem or he thought it's a problem he could help with later after he killed the Sith lord. If he had nothing urgent to do then he abandoned Anakin, then yes he's a jerk. But in that moment, he did have more important things to attend to.

[@Nostripe361]

Now I am just imagining Obi-wan sitting with Anikan like a drug intervention while they arrest Palpatine

[@mkhud50n]

He’s just being principled. She said she wasn’t a Jedi anymore, she doesn’t get Jedi briefings. 🤷‍♂️

[@rooksed]

Windu had no idea that ashoka had new knowledge about the sith's plan, if he did of course he would have wanted to hear all about it. If anything you should be mad at Ashoka in this scene, she knew about a potential plot to turn anakin to the dark side and didnt say anything about it

[@christopher6173]

Well mace shut her down and so she didn't trust the council. Plus she didn't really believe what maul said was true.

[@maasz3508]

There were so many things that could've prevented the fall of the jedi, and so many warnings. The jedi council was so full of hubris, that even though the republic's downfall was a tragedy, it was their fate. There was no path for the republic that didn't lead to destruction.

[@Mr_Dancy_Pants]

And this directly led to Mace Windu going out the Mace Window and becoming Mace Windid.

[@davantebarbain3216]

Imma disagree while yes it was petty yall gotta remember ashoka did the same thing earlier because she was still mad about the whole trial thing also we just gonna ignore how she basically let order 66 happen by not sharing intel because she low key got dissed by mace i guess 🤔

[@ponza6887]

True

[@supermoto9799]

Naah Mace blasted her. Attacked her for no reason after she proved her loyalty twice.And He got blasted out of the window for it. Mace deserved to be shot down by the entire 501st and electrocuted by Sheev for his war crimes during the clone wars. His dead carcass deserved to be T bagged.

[@Tristan.McKnight]

My wife and I watched this together last week and she literally said Mace is the reason for the downfall. He literally shuts down Ahsoka being rude, then when Anakin tells Mace he responds with something like “If what you said is true, then you will have gained my trust” Bruh really? How you gunna hear Anakin out and be like “ehhh thank you for the info but you still haven’t gained my trust” 🤦🏻‍♂️ Dude was self righteous like crazy

[@Dont_care_4_U]

That’s main carecter bias sure you know she’s right but in universe mace has no reason to trust her. For all he knows she might have become a new Sith apprentice in the 6 months since she left

[@Tristan.McKnight]

@@Dont_care_4_U don’t get me wrong, Ahsoka and Anakin should’ve sucked up their own pride and ignored Mace’s view point and do what was right, but Mace did unintentionally have an influence on Ahsoka and Anakin’s decision… Just shows no matter what, treat people with respect because if not they probably won’t have your back lol, even if y’all are on the same side

[@JaycodaJr]

The biggest thing that people don’t notice about Mace most of the time… is that he was literally an elitist. While there were always great Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn simply believed in following the will of the force and the light and because IT IS simply the light, Mace Windu saw that practicing the light side of the force was something that made him superior to everyone who did not meet his same ideals. Mace Windu was an excellent representation of how the most high-ranking Jedi in the Order were no longer the humble peacekeepers they had always claimed to be- and of course, ultimately tarnished the overall public perception of the Jedi.