This Strategy Broke Smash Bros.

[@SgtWaffleIron]

The threat of double DQ to force the winning player to approach is the most galaxy brain move I've ever seen.

[@vulblhotdiessfi]

it really is

[@ImCookieSparx]

BIG, MASSIVE, EXPANDO GIGANTO BRAIN MOVE

[@coasterthekid8867]

Why doesn’t the losing player approach? You’re already losing, might as well lose some more.

[@Weroleytor]

@@coasterthekid8867 If you are already losing getting DQ doesn't matter, but if you are winning it does

[@MEEPdragon]

3:45 fun little bit of extra information. For a little over a year prior to these games, M2K had tried to bring up how overpowered ledge stalling was in competitive melee. The response was basically "stop complaining and just be better m2k" So m2k basically said "you motherfuckers won't listen to me so im gonna SHOW you how busted ledge invincibility is" The response of course were the same people talking about how slimy m2k is and all that, and pulling a COMPLETE 180 on their opinion about the ledge Just goes to show you how much the competitive rules in melee are based around hate instead of logicical thinking Is your favorite player doing "x"? "X" should be legal. Is the player you hate doing "y"? "Y" SHOULD BE BANNED

[@thenoseguy]

We need a Melee congress or something.

[@theillusionist1494]

@@thenoseguy On paper, that sounds smart, in practice, I think it would be the most catastrophic decision ever made in competitive gaming. You have my vote, I want to see that shit.

[@ln8496]

Comp rules are always based on hate. Its why leffen is still against box legality. Hes just ableist.

[@thenoseguy]

@@theillusionist1494 Either way, it'd be fun.

[@pokemata1035]

@@thenoseguy Hell yeah that would be a hilarious disaster you have my vote as well lmao.

[@thuongn85]

I remember the Hbox and Leffen rivalry and people pushing the tag line Leffen is the hero that Melee needs or some shit and all I could think when I saw that was WTF are you smoking. The Hbox hate was so ridiculous back when he played and he had so much weird hate cause the community decided he is some villainous monster that needed to be nocked down a peg.

[@princegoatcheese9379]

And look at him now: wildly successful content creator/streamer, actively participating in the Smash community, holding small online tournaments. And, sure, in the dark era of HBox's career he adopted his alias, Juan the Fatty (which is just him in sunglasses embracing the hate). That's a funny discussion, too. Smash players who have alternate names/tags and it's just them with a different change of clothes or sunglasses. But, yeah, the HBox hate was wildly toxic and uncalled for.

[@orchid_carmen]

Late ass reply but yeah, like I remember it so well. At the time the amount of just vitriol directed towards HBox for playing Puff was nuts. I can't even lie and say that I didn't at least slightly participate in cheering against him back then, dumb 18 year old just wanting go see animal go fast and that. While not defending that sheer amount and harshness of hate he got, I do kind of get why it happened. A lot of the enjoyment people get in watching melee comes from the speed. Neutral itself for a lot of the most popular top tiers to watch; Spacies, Falcon, Shiek even Marth really with conversions into sick combos, is pretty fast paced and engaging. To the average viewer the speed puff plays is just really boring to watch. An unfortunate truth with esports is A LOT of spectators hate defensive play and they take that hatred out on the playing "lame" saying that they're killing the game by just playing optimally, but you know, it's just how you play Puff and it turns out HBox is the best at playing like that.

[@jakefromstatefarm6969]

I think it's crazy how opposite my feelings on this are from the rest of the community. I went from being a fan of him and puff when the puff hate was super high to just being neutral/apathetic about him and disliking puff now that it's died down.

[@YOSSARIAN313]

Hbox carried the platform fighter genre for years

[@level3xfactor]

Coming from the non-Smash side of the FGC, specifically Marvel, the idea of sitting down to play a match, looking your opponent dead in the eye and asking if they agree to not use a tactic that would give them an advantage is the absolute wildest shit I can think of. Like, imagining someone sitting down to play UMvC3 and saying “hey man, no sword loops, deal?” blows my god damn mind lol

[@thebluePumpking]

I mean... He tried at least haha

[@novida4770]

I think no infinites is pretty sound lmao

[@arnerademacker]

Given that Marvel is your game of choice I am not surprised to see you be okay with jank lol Jokes aside, they're not asking for an advantage. They're asking to be able to play the game. Imagine every move your opponent made ended in a 60 second cutscene resulting in a guaranteed death. Because that's what happens if you get wobbled.

[@janmarcoperezbatres2203]

@@arnerademacker Well, that is just Marvel 3 tbh. Of course he knows.

[@arnerademacker]

@@janmarcoperezbatres2203 Fair x)

[@twingemios5139]

That Dedede that lied to the Luigi was 100% Coney.

[@ZombieReese]

I thought so.

[@nathanlevesque7812]

That GnW clip is perfection. The character *might* drop an entire tier if people ever chilled out over the character.

[@AhNoWiC]

Aite I've had you popping up in my feed recently and every vid has been fire. Easy sub, keep up the good shit man, you put out some fun content.

[@quinnafred]

You've been influenced

[@aggapuffin]

Good man.

[@haiji_morie8416]

Been happening with me too

[@Spacie_687]

Haha jokes on u I watched this like a year ago and now I will watch it again with your commentary. Love the content coney keep it up!

[@epicness877]

Yus coney is big smart and massive funny man, tho not massive in height :/

[@KSerge83]

This is an interesting topic to explore not just for Melee but for all sorts of competitive activities, even real sports. There has always been this divide of "if it's legal, and it wins, I'm doing it" versus "playing the game as it's *meant* to be played", and different answers have been reached for many of them. For example, in Formula One car racing, there is an extensive rules committee that has established all sorts of restrictions and requirements on how the racing is done. However, you best believe that ANY opportunity racing teams have to fuck with said rules, or skirt around them, they will absolutely do so. When there's money on the line (both directly and indirectly) you best believe they will do anything to win. The insane number of rules the FIA has had to implement is testament to this behavior. However there are also plenty of competitive scenes without some kind of governing body of rules enforcement, often with an emphasis on "fun" and "making it your own", which comes up a LOT in video games especially. In these areas where there's no authoritative force preventing unwanted manipulation of the competition, you will regularly see some very polarizing behavior because if it's not explicitly banned, and it wins, then why wouldn't they? The moment you put prizes on the line, you should absolutely expect humans of all sorts to do whatever it takes to win. Hell, some people even do it when it IS banned and just hope they don't get caught. I'll give one final example - if in golf, a player could legally balance the golf ball on the head of their golf club and run from the tee box to the hole and get holes in one that way, do you think for even a second that some professional players wouldn't do that? It's not "golf as it's intended" but if the rules didn't ban it, I'm pretty sure there would be a few pros that master this way of playing it.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

I've heard basketball, when it started, wasn't meant for people to move by bouncing the ball up and down on the floor back to their hands, the idea of the "you can't move while holding the ball" rule was supposed to have you pass it to someone else, but then some clever player realized he could pass it to himself by bouncing it. They discussed changing the rules, but in the end people enjoyed basketball better this way and kept it. So yeah, even the "play as it was meant to be played" argument can be argued back with a "it is now meant to be played differently". To me, it kinda felt like pros never cared about wobbling or ledge abuse until they lose to it, especially if they lose to a newer player, and then they react passionately but that's just in the moment. Given time, they adapt and realize it's not broken, it's just unfun to watch.

[@madnessobserver]

"Competitive" TF2 is another perfect example of how having no governing body, or a functioning dev team for that matter, leads to an extremelly niche scene where some players get to dictate and create a culture of "how the game is fun and meant to be played" for everyone else, leading to a very divided and polarized community.

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

The irony here is that in the case of competitive Super Smash Bros, neither "if it's legal, and it wins, I'm doing it" or "playing the game as it's meant to be played" are really applicable. They're already not playing the game as it's meant to be played, and the new ruleset debates further stifle playstyle diversity. Your point about competitive scenes without governing bodies is really only true for videogames. Nothing's stopping me from picking up the ball in football (soccer) and running with it. A governing body needs to create, propagate, and enforce those rules. In videogames the rules are (theoretically) the only valid options for interaction, which removes the need for an active governing body.

[@abernathyloadspiller5298]

"not playing the game as intended" doesn't really apply to wobbling. There's an in game award for doing it so the devs obviously knew it was possible.

[@nickq8093]

@@abernathyloadspiller5298 huh, which one?

[@EllieMiller510]

I think the whole culture around melee is really cool, especially since the game will never be patched and it’s the same game forever. The fact that the meta can still somewhat change years later is cool

[@karlols2321]

Shout out to mang0 for proving that fox wins in fd against marth

[@AiakosVids]

It's crazy how in the past few years characters that had been written off literal decades ago like Yoshi and Pikachu are making bigger moves than ever before. I remember back around 2016 when people were thinking that "20XX" was legitimately real and that the game had been solved with Fox. Go back to 2010 and tell somebody that someday Falcon WILL win a supermajor and you'd be laughed at, because for almost /20 years/ "Falcon will never win a major" was a standing meme. Then you have people like Zain winning big tourneys in 2020 with Roy. Hell, even characters like Link that have sat dormant are seeing an enormous resurgence with huge discoveries in their meta thanks to people like Savestate and Aklo. And that's not even getting into stuff like UCF, the 20XX mod, UnclePunch's training mod, and others. I can't wait to see what happens in the coming years; anybody who says Melee is stale and all the same couldn't be more wrong.

[@EllieMiller510]

@@AiakosVids definitely. One of the biggest uprisings of a character I can think of was jigglypuff, written off for years as a mid-low tier, then Hbox and Mang0 started doing crazy well. Zain winning with Roy was revolutionary too, since Roy is such a broken unfinished mess of a character.

[@jejetube7667]

The game is fucking alive and that's what I love about it. Yeah, I also kinda agree with Coney in the sense that there are some overly intense fans out there that wanna fucking kill anyone who doesn't plays fast and hype.

[@ottosantiagolassus]

Theres a patch for Melee Its called Nicks all star brawl😂

[@CarbonMalite]

People single out Ult, but the vitriol towards lame play in Melee had honestly been just as bad or worse in the past. It's either you played how others want or people like Leffen are gonna start a witch hunt on your character or just you as a person. Community seems way more chill nowadays, which is good to see

[@btf_flotsam478]

Trust me, it's only a matter of time before a Fox main platform-camps for over half a set and causes a massive civil war in the Melee community.

[@madnessobserver]

@@btf_flotsam478 We've already seen it, and that's just M2K's Fox when he used to play it, and he got a lot of shit for his camping and ledge-oriented gameplan (but that's his playstyle on every character though). Fox still been unoptimized is not a meme, if Fox players collectively decided to camp and force approaches instead of going ham 24/7 then people would see how truly flawed Melee is and the petty twitter wars would be hilarious.

[@Parpeing]

@@btf_flotsam478 yeah uh i dont think you know what a civil war is leffen crying on twitter and people losing their shit over it isnt a civil war, its a monday, a very boring and uneventful monday

[@RagnellAvalon]

they're certainly being quieter after they were gutted by it coming out that half of them were kiddydiddlers

[@joplin4434]

@@RagnellAvalon nah, that was the brawl/smash 4/ulti scene. All the biggest offenders weren't from melee, as much as i dislike the melee community myself.

[@doublewide8938]

“Fuck the other guy, you’re trying to win MONEY” Truth lmao

[@Contrary22]

The same dude who said he didn't believe in chain grabbing in Brawl with DeDeDe because he was honorable just said "Wobbling is/was fine." 🤣

[@madnessobserver]

Because getting a chaingrab with Dedede in Brawl is braindead easy compared to getting a chaingrab as Icies on Melee.

[@TheBigSad8247]

Your statement does not work. It's not like he denounces chain grabbing. That's just his playstyle choice he prefers. Nothing more. It's not like he was bashing others for chain grabbing, nor did he wish for it to be banned.

[@AshenDemon]

@@madnessobserver Doesn't matter how easy it is, at the top level difficulty is irrelevant so both become the same thing. Just because fewer people can kill you off of one grab doesn't mean killing off of one grab it's degenerate as af. The same can be said about Luigi in Ultimate. You shouldn't be able to just grab someone and win the stock because of that. I'm honestly surprised it took them this long. Good to see most of the Melee community banned cheating.

[@AshenDemon]

@@madnessobserver Not to mention it's not fun watching people just do infinite damage to someone so even if you disagree with my other argument this point still stands.

[@Rahnonymous]

I cannot stress how stupid the whole argument for not banning wobbling just because the character's terrible is. This has nothing to do with giving them a free viability pass. The fact is, wobbling takes 0 skill, is boring af to watch, and gives way too much advantage for such an insignificant slip-up. No strat should just give you 999% free damage. Any strat that does should rightfully remain banned, and there's 0 excuse or reason to allow such a strat to be in competitive play

[@-w0rdz-30]

7:10 Tell that to the Wolf I played that ran away for seven whole minutes, THREE TIMES.

[@Jacob_G9]

16:59 okay, the Cut to the DQ with giygas's theme is genuinely a bit scary. Maybe that's the memories kicking in.

[@lintecassidy206]

The entire melee community: plays an aggressive rushdown style Hungrybox, the one top-level dude who plays defensive zoining: "ADAPT, MF! ADAPT!" The entire melee community: "I hate the antichrist! I hate the antichrist! I hate the antichrist!"

[@chuckles3116]

It's not about zoning. Playing against Puff just removes half the reasons people get drawn to Melee in the first place, and playing as her removes even more before you give your "just play puff" bullshit.

[@Junya01]

@@chuckles3116 hmm, sounds like copium. Having to adapt in a fighting game? No way 🥴

[@chuckles3116]

@@Junya01 it’s not about puff introducing mechanics that people don’t want to deal with. Imagine if ChriG’s lineup and only that lineup got a full screen neutral reset every time a character got hit, and how that would demoralize players who enjoyed combos or just not having to constantly approach rather than having back and forth where the zoner has to create space Falco also forces people to approach him with his incredibly dominant lasers and people love him because he actually can be comboed and can combo.

[@byrontheusurper6505]

I never got into melee, was never too active in the smash scene but watching movies about it is some of my favourite shit to do

[@christopherhammond5142]

So true. I could never understand the HBOX hate. It was just excluding cool shit from other players. Anyone that didn't play spacies or Marth or Shiek or Falcon was automatically crap. I'm glad it's changed so much recently.

[@jakefromstatefarm6969]

Nah people loved pika and yoshi. And pretty much anyone lower was bad and rare enough to be liked. Peach and Samus were both fine. It was just ics and puff that people didn't like. The hbox hate was multifaceted. There are some personal things about him that many people disliked, and then there are the gameplay things that many people disliked, and then there are the people who were frustrated and jealous of his success. Put all three together and you've got a lot of hate

[@Mousyy]

The ledge grab limit is for all characters, M2K just complained about hbox specifically, the whole community called him out on his bias when he said this.

[@CLOUDS-tm2vj]

bro the "forcing boring people to be cooler than they are" is such a roast

[@Athesies]

Its fun hearing a brawl veteran's perspective these events, even though i heavily disagree on a lot of your arguments

[@CONEYZZ]

yea I'm 100% an outsider, appreciate you not treating my obvious opinions as perceived facts lol

[@alexv0714]

ngl Coney was a top PM player, and while that's not Melee by any means, it's sooo much closer to Melee than Brawl is. I think Melee is definitely goated in the halls of fame but to me, PM/P+ is just so much more fun for all kinds of reasons.

[@Athesies]

@@alexv0714 oh, cool to know coney is familiar with all the mechanics of a melee like game then. Yeah thats cool, if we all agreed on the same things the world would be a boring place

[@Parpeing]

Its true that sometimes coney felt very uneducated on anything melee, which even if you dont like the scene, is weird considering his pretty high status in the smash community

[@alexv0714]

@@Parpeing uneducated how??

[@RAINMAKEEER]

Has CONEY reacted to Emplemon's Never Ever about HungryBox?

[@Crimson_Valor]

Don’t know but he should

[@unknownsoldier6731]

I should too and I didn’t even know he was into this game I was surprised he uploaded it

[@deschaingames1851]

As a boring player, who regularly gravitates towards zoning and camping, I feel it’s important for me to be able to express myself.

[@deschaingames1851]

For context, I mained Olimar in brawl and in Smash 4 until Cloud came out. If I actually practiced and played Ultimate competitively, I’d probably be a Min Min player. Ngl I don’t practice and only play casually with friends so I just play Cloud. Of all the reach-based zoners, I feel like he has the least amount of required tech skill. Plus I had a lot of experience from 4.

[@Tightness8]

Swordie spacing ain't zoning

[@deschaingames1851]

@@Tightness8 Debatable tbh. You can use the size of your hit boxes to control space and, if you use tilt stick, you can easily use retreating aerials to slow down the flow of the game. Plus… I use blade beam a lot lol

[@getmilked6216]

i just realized that theres a blackmar deimer gambit line in chessbase at 6:49 that melee stats has, most likely, put into chessbase and filled with notes about the falco peach matchup? i love this.

[@rcscooter4162]

I'm learning the reason only like 9 stages are ever legal at a time is because Smash pros always look for the cheap wins. Kind of glad I never considered getting into Smash competetively tbh.

[@PawsOfFate]

17:30 Wait a sec... That's not Bayo VS Bayo holding neutral-B. I've been bamboozled!

[@XC11301991]

Eh I felt Wobbling was bad but it was due to chain grabbing being a bad design to begin with. After winning a rock, paper, scissor engagement that resets situation to your advantage, you shouldn't be able to just gain more damage and advantage. Wobbling is bad, but so is Sheik gentleman's and everything else with how grabs work. Setting these rules just mean the game is flawed, Melee is not "perfect" like the community likes to say it is. There's definitely never going to be a game like Melee ever again and it's great for that. Just as Coney put it the community is a bit of a delusional cult.

[@IWillBethreatheYou]

the problem with wobbling isn't that it's OP, it's that it's fucking miserable. literally what do you do when you do eventually get wobbled? just put down your controller basically. in Melee. they're the only character that forces you to take a 45 second break between stocks, that's what makes them so powerful.

[@DukasFiguliras]

I think melee should have ties. As it stands, if you have a % lead while the time is running out, it's optimal to play for the timeout so you can secure your win. But if there was no timeout victory, and instead it was a draw, then the person with a % lead (or closer to winning, in that case) would be the one that wanted to kill, while the losing player would play for the timeout. The difference is that since the winning player, well, is winning, than it means they have a higher probability of securing the kill. That also means that most players would also not camp during the first minutes of the match, since it just means the game is more likely to end in a draw, so there's less incentive to do so. The only problem is that worse players will try to camp better players because the feel they can't win anyways, but camping a better player kinda of already happens. The tiebreaker of the set could be a match with less time and stocks, and that would also force slow players to go for the win during the regular set

[@redmangc]

Real late to this party, but Wobbling should be banned as it is a single touch OKO on the entire cast, and it involves doing the simplest action, pressing grab. And before you say anything, I learned about wobbling from Brawl in which the only reason their top tier is because they can grab MK

[@HeirofDacia]

The only time the "subconsciously run into stuff" happens to me is when playing against friends who aren't really into fighting games. I don't want to upset them.

[@beaver_eater2447]

Your talk abou Hbox is so on points Coney, wish you could watch "there will never be another meele player like hungrybox" by Emplemon

[@setxjrichie9745]

The game of timeout/DQ chicken is so awesome lmao

[@J0ulez5]

It's so funny looking at melee, and then looking at ultimate (which I have played 1000 hrs of) and realising that when you play it in a tournament style format (7 minutes, no items, limited stages) most of the characters are awful to fight, like just really annoying to deal with. But I love that now, finding different ways to approach your win condition, essentially outlaming other players, not always but a good amount of the time, its got a skill and a charm to it.

[@marzipancutter8144]

True. I kinda realised the same thing. When I started to feel this way though, I just stopped playing. Call me a scrub, but my life and mental health has significantly improved since quitting smash both casually and competetively. (the pandemic also had to do with it though. My local is still cancelled to date, and that was already a one hour drive away so just meeting up with my local players didn't really work either)

[@novida4770]

If top players don't need to outlame, then you're just bad

[@marzipancutter8144]

@@novida4770 Or, you know, just play a good game.

[@Parpeing]

@@novida4770 thats dumb

[@novida4770]

@@Parpeing over your head

[@Rothgarrr]

20XX!! Players have gotten improved and advanced so much over the years that peak optimal gameplay is to do nothing.

[@Diamond_Aura]

Thanks to you making your other video about this channel, I went and checked it out and binged these videos you’re watching in this one. But watching your reactions to them is an experience worth it in itself lol, so you can bet I’ll be watching this one too XD

[@FlameUser64]

_My_ take on wobbling is that it's a frame like 7 instant kill move. It reduces the stock to a single interaction. And there are ways to combo _into_ this frame 7 instant kill move. Wobbling drastically reduces the game's interactivity in a way no other legal technique does. And the best part is? If you ban wobbling, people might have to start doing desync combos and _actually learning_ the technical, high skill cap character that is Ice Climbers!

[@MrGrombie]

Legit agreed on Hbox. I ask all the time, and man.... As a kid who liked to play Kirby back in the day.... I'm impressed he made Jiggly actually work.... Anyone who hates on him, should really re-evaluate what they are doing in their lives where how other people play video games, impacts their lives the way they say they do....

[@Deadgye]

Something tells me you don't know Mang0's initial rise to the top was as a Jigglypuff.

[@GarredHATES]

I love Melee way more than Ultimate but I absolutely agree with Coney. Melee was just being whiny cry babies that this one jigglypuff was whooping all their asses

[@swordmasterarie7752]

Another banger by Melee Stats that I rewatch regularly

[@HatsuneInku]

"Why should an infinite be banned?" Insane question for smash viewers who wanna watch sick gameplay. "DID YOU SEE THAT BRO?! THEY JUST STOOD THERE UNABLE TO ESCAPE AS HE TOOK 200%" 🤡🤡🤡

[@AshenDemon]

I don't know why people are so dumb.

[@lucasferro6050]

If you don't like watching someone get wobbled just go watch another match, not everyone uses Ice Climbers and they don't always find an opening to grab and wobble the opponent. We, as viewers, are entitled to nothing in a tournament where people fight for a prize and not to put up a show, it's a plus if they do

[@AshenDemon]

I agree @SquidWoomy

[@AshenDemon]

@@lucasferro6050 And that right there is the exact reason it should be banned. Your mindset of watching something else is great but for tournament viewership, it's not if someone is getting wobbled people will want to watch something else and that's bad for tournament views.

[@HatsuneInku]

@@lucasferro6050 Keeping a move in that ruins the fun to the point where the response is "just don't watch it" on a game that has no creator backing is idiotic. You want people to watch, it's how you keep it growing. Melee is a healthier game without wobbling.

[@treedude4246]

Coneys becoming a full react channel I like coneys reactions content alot but, i also enjoyed hos very surreal content I loved the saw ball maze stream

[@ERROR-CitationNeeded]

6:35 you can see armada's head swelling xD

[@MrDrumStikz]

It's funny, because I've actually trained myself to be willing to do nothing for an entire game if my opponent is unwilling to come get me. It's a pain in the ass, but if you're playing against someone who's playing uber defensive, it is the optimal play.

[@1roadz]

3:01 i actually was in training mode and the 2 characters where luigi and dedede lol

[@bregghaines1656]

That Chudat and Hungrybox set where Chu SD’d to get Nana back was awesome! Fun to watch, no, but from a strategy standpoint I was into it

[@donkylefernandez4680]

Falco's biggest problem is that he's the slower version of Fox. He's still VERY fast in his own right, but he has just a little bit more frames per move than Fox and you can feel that when you realize how long his Dair lasts and why. The recipe for spacies requires good spacing because they have zero true disjoints and have to scramble or trade blows in order to make progress. Mew2King can force trade scenarios, and win half the time because he has a disjoint. The invincibility is just the cherry on top of backing into a corner and holding your sword out. Falco HAS to get around the sword and he can't shoot lasers downwards. Mew2King gets a second of invincibility before he has to start scrambling again and scrambling is one of West's specialties but it's understandable he didn't want to play against that many stacking disadvantages. M2k magic and elixir buffed himself pre-fight!

[@Zethoro]

That dedede luigi story made me crack up. That's insane lol

[@fim_gaming]

"A Luigi player and a Dedede player sit down to play..." It's like the start of a bad joke! (Wait...)

[@klafsen]

The TV with chat is such a cool idea!

[@adamquenano8563]

Mew2king vs Nintendude in Genesis 3 is Prime Wobbling

[@trollof229antthevariable9]

Dude that's so cool you have the text in the background.

[@greateststam1]

Honestly, anything that allows you to win a match off of a single attack (or in this case a grab) doesn't sound very fair to me. Like if I was playing chess and this random jank move with a pawn from starting position ended in automatic checkmate. And you had to move the same knight back and forth to avoid it. And o yea Nintendo doing a tornament for this game now good luck to them.

[@doyouknowdaway65]

Coney spoke the truth. Why ban wobbling when the same 5 people win all the tournaments

[@moose5958]

so that the other thousands of people who play melee don't have to die off 1 grab lmao

[@doyouknowdaway65]

@@moose5958 except for the boy 5 who win the tournaments anyway

[@moose5958]

@@doyouknowdaway65 complaining about people being good at the game is scrubby asf

[@doyouknowdaway65]

@@moose5958 Im not complaining, I just said there is no point in banning wobbling if Hbox wins every tournament anyway

[@Keerbe]

Hbox winning every tournament? When’s the last time you watched some Melee…?

[@Bonaby]

These smash doc reactions are 100% among my favorite vids on the channel fr fr.

[@ToiletWolf12]

I tried ONCE to time someone out in ultimate online for 2:30 and I swear seeing the timer makes it a million times longer

[@tyleryoder9032]

I used to hate Lylat. I then forced myself to practice on it all the time. I then fell in love with the stage. It was so good for me. Went to a tourney last weekend and found out it was not legal anymore in my area.

[@adamquenano8563]

I try not to remember Wobbling

[@katsoupman3218]

I’m inclined to like Lylat as a brawler main

[@GiuseppeGamez]

Sucks to be you coney, I watched this ages ago, but I’m going to watch it again anyways

[@-Keith-]

Losing your killer edge/reflexes/instinct is just getting older. I was at prime gamer age when Diablo 2 came out, and in pvp I used to be able to have sorcs drop frozen orb basically right on top of me and I'd still be able to dodge all the individual ice shards. These days my reflexes just aren't as good, like I have a hard time keeping up with the action on pantheon bosses in Hollow Knight.

[@marzipancutter8144]

I think he's talking about the attitude towards winning though, not mechanical acuity. Like, you wouldn't necessarily do whatever it takes. What you're saying is true, but I also think growing older makes you chill out a bit.

[@illu_Min8]

JUST from how you ended the video xD funny as hell, another great video

[@NoFace-Killah]

Westballz has been shafted in so many ways by the melee comunity, that I can't believe he still plays

[@ladian5475]

Melee takes so much work to be good at that people become good because they love the game. I think this is something not mentioned in that it weeds out most people who might compete just for the satisfaction of winning.

[@cheEZy_boi_nips]

7:00 Coney, that is called shame.

[@BloopTheNoop]

I love “what your main says about you” stuff

[@cagethelonewolf]

these same people immediately banned steve instead of going no escape tech

[@BlackMageLozi]

Those things happen when you want to compete in a game that is designed for fun and not for rules :)

[@oddyoda6443]

As someone who is an outsider when it comes to Melee, it's insame how openly accepted it is that techniques and characters get banned because the community's favorite player lost. The bias is so egregious that when the vid talked about Axe, Coney just said "Yeah you shouldn't beat Axe, that's a mistake" Is that not fucked up? This shit is why I'm gonna stay a Melee outsider. And it's awful in Ultimate too, but not as bad as Melee.

[@danster64]

These videos are so sick dude

[@limitedbom2206]

Let me add to why the melee community disliked hbox. He would deliberately do things that would aggravate players (singing mid game to Kanye west, screaming after every game win (not set win, game). But most of all, he flip flopped a lot of whether to be the bad guy or try to get people to like him. He would go from “what did I do to deserve this hate” to putting on dark sunglasses flipping off the camera and saying something like fuck the community. Plus there was the time he spat on someone in a grocery store. If you know you know.

[@lyonsin2535]

Damn that crazy, with more context the Melee community sounds more corny for hating him

[@limitedbom2206]

@@lyonsin2535 I think it would be more corny for hating on someone for their playstyle.

[@razputin711]

Did the Smash scene seriously Sirlin post? Thats really funny if true.

[@Bones_]

Wobbling should be banned because it's a true infinite. That's really all it comes down to. Same with there being a ledge grab limit. It's to prevent an infinitely repeatable action that one player can perform to remove the other players inputs from effecting the remaining outcome of the match. Anything that turns a Vs match into what is essentially a single player game should not be allowed. As for timeouts, you should only be able to win by timeout if you have accrued a minimum amount of damage done to your opponent. If you win by timeout, and on the win screen it says you only did 50% damage your opponent automatically wins. I would say minimum 200% to win by timeout (for the sake of argument, but of course another % may be more ideal). Only the player trying to go for timeouts will be burdened with having to recall how much % they have dealt, but this will require them to approach and give their opponent opportunities to have an actual fight. The results screen already gives % dealt info so this could be easily verified after a match. There's the issue of someone abusing this to not engage for 7 minutes and then SD'ing to put their opponent ahead in stocks but under in % dealt to force a reverse timeout win for themselves but it's not my problem to figure out a solution to that right now. This random comment will never lead to an actual rule adoption anyways, but I think the general idea would be better for the game. Also people don't love Melee because it's a perfect game. They love it because despite it's flaws it has a core mechanics system that makes it a deeply nuanced game that has a high technical ceiling that can constantly push people to their technical limits but that can still be deeply effected by mindgames and match experience. When someone is reaching those 20xx levels of inputs it's like watching Neo seeing the matrix and dodging bullets, but you know it's so insane that they can't keep it up. Hence why PM attempted to be Melee "perfected" in a sense. Bringing over what everyone loved about Melee but in an environment with patches and updates. I think it's interesting to imagine what would have happened to the Melee scene had Nintendo not stepped in and instead allowed PM to grow unopposed. Would PM have reached a final point where it was "finished" and mostly balanced with a final roster and only small technical and quality of life updates from time to time? And once it got there would more and more Melee players have moved over?

[@AshenDemon]

I swear to god these people have one braincell. You're not a scrub if you think that a character shouldn't just win a stock if you get grabbed once.

[@tootsie_]

Wobbling being banned was and is still the dumbest ban that I can think of in FGC history.

[@NonRandomUser]

I fucking love that original video.

[@A_man_not_your_man]

Anyone know the song/remix that was playing in the beginning?

[@GanonAutumn777]

Its wild how the smash community for a while thought it was okay to harass hbox just cuz he played puff up until tje crab incident where people finally realized how cringe that shit was

[@Sgtcrazyeyes235]

Its insane how much hbox hate there was and how people called him bad for playing puff, but if you actually saw him approach and play his mind off his ability to read and break through defense is crazy and nobody ever talks about it because he plays melee differently than the 1000’s of rushdown fox players

[@peterschulkke6072]

Idk, I think meele is still better off without wobbling. There is a big gap between „Jigglypuff air camping is pretty lame“ and „If I get grabbed by icies I have to watch a death cutscene“

[@Wavedashnoir]

Agreed

[@blujay1294]

That dedede story confirms why I'll never get deep into the FGC, no matter how obsessed I am with fighting games lol. For every 1, minorly positive story, I hear 20 of the grimiest, grossest, pieces of shit that I'd want to pop the tires of lol. Like M2K is the perfect example. Everything I've heard is him being gross or weird off the set, it'a him abusing rules and going "oh well 😉", and the inverse where he loses to something once, and now the Backroom is throwing red flags like fastballs INSTANTLY.

[@sersmiles1635]

chudat laughs at everyones patience

[@isaacgutierrez139]

Ppmd said, non verbatim, that melee was good because it was a product that was what is was going to be forever. No updates. Players get better at a game that stays the same. I feel like banning wobbling goes against the spirit of that philosophy, even if it is boring as hell.

[@The_DGO]

Icies players need a pocket fox specifically for puff.

[@YOSSARIAN313]

I played DK but i use marth for puff and sheik

[@sticks4632]

1:30 NINJAGOOOOO

[@WardofSquid]

19:07 *This ending man* ...

[@ValGuard4801]

"There's something in the human brain that just doesn't let you" Me: lol *camps people out on quickplay with zss*

[@rexbot2749]

I would wobble but do it in a stylish way

[@milesuruburu9407]

all of your videos are an instant watch

[@MaRLoNpl0x]

The Smash scene was quoting David Sirlin? As a member of the FGC, I apologize.

[@taillord4644]

I never got why they didn't just lowered the wobbling limit from the 300% to like 50% so you'd have at least 3 chances to not die from a grab a stock

[@NintenJoe]

Too precise

[@taillord4644]

@@NintenJoe like it's too much to think about or regulate or what?

[@NintenJoe]

@@taillord4644 can barely regulate it. 300% rule is only there to prevent ics getting a grab and wobbling for 8 minutes to win. You can easily get 50% or more from ics desyncs from grab, no point allowing wobbling

[@taillord4644]

@@NintenJoe oh I see thank you

[@nickq8093]

also, the 300% limit means you couldn't wobble *past* 300%, not that you could only wobble *for* 300%. a limit on how much % you can wobble for is not something you can enforce well as you can't expect anybody to track it well (players have stakes in the game, spectators often have bias, TO's often aren't around when it starts.)

[@Shmookcakes]

Why does Michael vs Bananas make me cry

[@poppy3660]

I don’t play smash really but am a big spectator, and ngl wobbling isn’t fun to watch

[@Th3M4ilMan]

As a IC main, I agree, it ain't fun

[@RanserSSF4]

This video is a great example of why Melee isn't a "perfect" game and can be as campy as any other smash game. The only people who don't think this is true for Melee are the fanboys and those who hate campy/defensive play-styles that feel it doesn't fit Melee. Bro, if people want to play campy/defensively, and it works for their main or play-style, let them. If Mew2King gets a pass for doing that for decades, but not Hbox, that should show how bad the melee community can be sometimes when it comes to camping.

[@lUnstable]

I literally always waste a ban on Lylat. I’ve met people who will pick lylat based on the fact that you didn’t ban it so I always ban lylat. It’s just too jank even beyond the patch. People wanted Warioware banned because of the blast zones being really close to stage but lylat is practically the same minus it’s higher ceiling.

[@knitejax659]

I actually love Lylatt, it's an awesome map for my main.

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

I think the low views on that last match says it all. People don't like that boring wobbling shit. It's not fun to watch. Ban that shit. Neat that some players can express themselves in a weird way like that, and it does produce interesting results occasionally, but nah. Not worth it. If you can learn wobbling you can also learn a real strategy using a characters other tools

[@crocworks]

I still think Wobbling and Chain-grabs should be treated the same, so either allow both or ban both. I'm more on the side of allowing both, but I mainly just want them to be consistent.

[@Keerbe]

What? There’s so much more place for mistakes with chain grabs. They do not go to infinity % and you actually have to know how to read your opponent to keep it going pass a certain point. Very different

[@majintv24]

Saying something is harder to execute doesn't make something fair or balanced. If you're getting chain grabbed wheres the skill in escaping. Also what's the average success of a long chain grab

[@jsweeney7359]

Chain grabs are completely different, wobbling was degenerate because there was no influence on your behalf if you're getting wobbled, if someone messes up their wobble it's because they messed up, not because you mixed them up. In a chaingrab, you have influence by how you di

[@Monkchelle_Kongbama]

@@majintv24 you should ban a falcon punch then. those never land, but when they do they pretty much always kill. your argument is shit

[@jakefromstatefarm6969]

​@@majintv24'saying something is harder to execute doesn't make something fair or balanced' isn't really true in practice. People tend to be more accepting of a strong technique if there is a difficulty associated with performing it. The payoff from the technique is a reward for the skill of the player.

[@Sugarist0]

13:35 well that’s how u play ice climbers in melee anyway

[@captainphoton1693]

Online games cannot deal with stalling and infinite without patching them out. And modern melee online has had too much of a legacy for people do be lame and anoying on purpose.