The Strongest Smash Character in Every Archetype

[@igyl2867]

obsessed with the fact half of all smash characters in history fit into the loser archetype

[@Logan-tz1ry]

To be fair half of all characters in history are bad

[@shadycat8898]

Melee Pichu my Loser King.

[@Soulful_Oatmilk]

as a ZSS main, Loser Grappler Rushdown fits her perfectly

[@JosepiThe13th]

All of them do

[@Gay_Nerd99]

No just like smash 4

[@Gabri_Lovecraft]

"Luigi is a Loser Luigi" is the most Luigi thing possible.

[@bucketfullabiscuits7865]

"The L stands for winner"

[@MJneerGaming]

@@bucketfullabiscuits7865 luigi the kind of guy to have a losing matchup to luigi

[@qwerwert2739]

The “Loser” archetype makes far more sense than it has any reason to

[@lancelee338]

I'm surprised he didn't put smash 4 shulk there

[@AverageDoctor345]

I think Loser could also be called Half-Baked, just character ideas that could work but don't. There's an upsetting amount of those in Smash...

[@Moss_Dude]

Same with Jumplord

[@mr.noodle6931]

Lucario is the biggest loser imo. He literally wins by losing, and he also functions incorrectly

[@thesporehero]

@@lancelee338 Holy shit Smash 4 Shulk could definitely be at the top of his own "Potential" arcehtype. Characters with a high theoretical power level, but obnoxiously hard execution, and optimal play is still only marginally better than just picking a top tier

[@HerMajestyVelvet]

I think coney is a Clown Scammer hybrid character

[@CONEYZZ]

you're about to be a Banned Loser

[@HerMajestyVelvet]

@@CONEYZZ Apologies great streamer

[@maxedoutsociety]

@@CONEYZZno no, you're also a zoner

[@jeffbaker9180]

@@CONEYZZYou definitely control chat like a puppet character

[@orangefroot]

I'm really glad he just pulled out the fuckass extra 4 categories. This is why I can always trust Coney to deliver.

[@cisummusic22]

Nah fr I got so excited when I saw 4 more. Coney always gives the right amount

[@micahfurlow2624]

MORE TIERS MORE TIERS MORE TIERS MORE TIERS

[@Evilmau555]

​@@micahfurlow2624 SKELETONPLS MORE TIER SKELETONPLS MORE TIERS

[@geminiduality2]

I fucking died laughing at the reveal

[@idavid8391]

Ngl, this list is a lot better than chat seemed to understand. They were looking at isolated elements or hyper-extremes of characters and games--Coney was looking for cohesive summaries of the archetypes and characters that were best rounded to fit them.

[@Khyreezy]

A lot of his chat is contrarian for contrarian's sake. Outside looking in it looks weird, but Coney's list made a lot of sense.

[@ashen_roses]

Smash Wannabe "Pros" are some of the most obnoxious egotistical and aggressive tantrum-throwing losers I've ever seen, and it's too bad they're such a significant part of the fanbase despite providing little more than autofellatio

[@dashhunterx735]

Yeah, like having a grab does not make a character a grappler smh chat I don't think chat plays other fighting games lol

[@PeriluneThePierrot]

​@dashhunterx735 sure, but you take incineroar in other fighter and hes a grappler. FFS HE HAS GIEF BODY SPLAT AND LARIAT. stronger throws off of non command grab. arguably the best command grab in the game. he has big damaging close range normals to scare you with some decent pokes and a parry that conditions you not to mash so he can work his gameplan.... he is a grappler.

[@danielf1833]

​@@PeriluneThePierrotincin absolutely is a grappler, but he's not the series peak of the archetype

[@Xanek]

Great thumbnail, Coney is the definition of the Scammer archetype Kazuya being the Luigi of Luigi archetype and not Luigi both a true and HUH kind of statement.

[@benji6325]

Luigi walked so Kazuya could run

[@xygyaz]

luigi not being the best at his own archetype is the most luigi thing of all time

[@TrulyAtrocious]

Haven't watched the video and the first thing I thought when I saw Luigi was "luigi doesn't win this"

[@hunterbeaune7626]

Luigi is the One-Shot archetype from GG Strive

[@ExceedRed]

Kazuya isn’t even a Luigi in his own game lmao

[@CNightmare072]

“Jumplord” & “Loser” are such good descriptors I am all for adapting them

[@HiImAiden]

7:26 "And if you're not wobbling then you're doing some fuck ass pass off combo, which is more of a puppet thing." 13:15 "Brawl Ice Climbers are not a puppet character."

[@splatzilla6064]

Yeah he meant melee ice climbers are a puppet. Also ult ice climbers

[@TrueBruceTube]

@@splatzilla6064 So does that mean Brawl IC is the loser puppet?

[@buttery_gooch6]

@@TrueBruceTube yes, ult ice climbers is not a puppet and is probably luigi puppet loser

[@StarkMaximum]

What I love about videos like this is that everyone thinks Coney is just shitposting, but you can tell when someone doesn't know when they're talking about and are just saying something to rankle people up. Coney has examples and from what little competitive Smash I've watched, learned, and been involved with, his logic is consistent, it just sounds weird to someone on the outside. A lot of the examples people brought up were very basic or based on aesthetics, like how a lot of people wanted to suggest Incineroar for grappler just because he has a bunch of throws. Coney has a lot of experience and he's not afraid to say something that sounds weird if he genuinely believes it's true but will shoot down people who are just trying to be contrarian. Coney likes to rile people up and shoot them down, but he is speaking from an educated position. It's silly, but it all lines up. I think you'll learn a surprising amount from Coney if you assume a lot of what you think is just jokes is actual genuine knowledge.

[@CONEYZZ]

IM TRYING TO HELP

[@sleepybinch]

This is really sweet but I must inform you that most people on the inside of smash, including those at top level and with years of experience, would tell you Incineroar is a grappler. People didn't say Incin because he has "a bunch of throws" - he literally only has one more throw than other characters. They said Incin because that throw is what his pressure revolves around, which is the core of a grappler. He is a bit of an outlier in Smash for being a grappler of normal size, but he still fits the archetype, just like Manon in SF6 is still obviously a grappler despite being normal size. Coney is just describing the traditional grappler, the Zangief archetype.

[@mz-power9587]

Coney did admit he was a grappler in the end. Still not the strongest grappler. Incin best fits the grappler archetype. He has a point with dedede though

[@StarkMaximum]

@@mz-power9587 Yeah, maybe I misspoke a bit, it's not that Roar isn't a grappler it's that he's _certainly_ not the best one, but chat saw a bunch of grab moves and said "well clearly he's the best one because he's got all these throws". Speaking as someone who loves playing Roar, he is not anywhere near that good.

[@imcoral]

incin is absolutely a grappler but he's like a lower mid tier in his only game. there is no argument for the strongest of all time

[@JvmxMonki]

Coney being in the scammer archetype is mad funny

[@7-Volt]

kazuya being put as best luigi in smash is the funniest shit i have seen today

[@tobyga1929]

Melee falcon over small mii brawler for a brawler is crazy

[@Masaru_kun]

the answer is actually melee Falco no cap

[@five_6_seven_8]

@@Masaru_kunnaw hes rushdown zoner

[@kingnewgameplus6483]

Remember, this is a Coney stream on the Coney channel, mii's don't have rights.

[@Masaru_kun]

@@five_6_seven_8 no way he doesn't rush down, he slows rush downs with his lasers lol. And he's def not a zoner, because he doesn't try to keep people zoned out, he uses his lasers to approach.

[@AJ-sl7be]

Miis have had zero competitive relevance stop bringing them up.

[@blackwing3032]

honestly i feel like coney is spotting on this one. Also as soon I saw Luigi as a category my mind immediatly went "Kazuya Mishima"

[@crockoreptile]

I don’t know what the fuck any of this means

[@nessleepk]

“Kazuya is the best Luigi ever” This is the insight im subscribed for

[@1UltraUmbreon]

If we're putting those last archetypes into traditional fighting games, Jumplord: Hazama Loser: SF4 Dee Jay Pacifist: Taokaka The Fantastic Spinning Surprise Killing Robot: Nagoriyuki

[@MimiksYou]

loser is sf6 jamie kinda sf4 dee jay is ass but he’s just an all rounder jamie is trash without drinks and has to spend time getting drinks instead of being good

[@ExceedRed]

Sol Badguy is definitely a Luigi

[@FalseHerald]

GGAC+R Bridget is the most pacifist it's ever been

[@CNightmare072]

THE NAGO EXAMPLE IS PHENOMINAL

[@vivianlessthan3]

puppet loser is strive zato

[@lt2660]

i wanna defend coney on the meta knight/bayo/steve thing, those characters are so much stronger than the rest of the cast and so flexible in what they can do that they do not fit into any archetype cleanly. they transcend catagorisation through sheer strength. Though brawl ics not being the grappler was crazy i cant defend him on that

[@brendanpryde5639]

The main thing I got from that is that he put “size” into account as well. By this logic IC’s are too small. But ummm imo I think it is IC’s function wise

[@lt2660]

@@brendanpryde5639 He's taking the spirit of the original idea, which is that grapplers have to be big so they can take up space and put pressure to get a grab. But i think smash is so different that it warrants a different definition of just grab based characters. And ice climbers is *the* grab based character. I don't think he's wrong in his placement as much as he is wrong in how he defines a grappler in smash. It makes sense but i just dont agree

[@stephendonovan9084]

@@lt2660I think if he wanted that then the smart thing to do would’ve been to split grappler into “traditional grappler” and “Smash grappler,” or something along those lines. I find the way he’s defining the problem really interesting but ignoring the way people use “grappler” in Smash terms was a bit weird

[@terrortaste6389]

@@lt2660 Coney didn't use this argument in the stream/vid, but imo Brawl DDD is more of a grappler ironically because of his projectiles and disjoints. They let him control lots of space and steadily move in on his opponents. That also moves Brawl DDD more to the zoner category but it is what it is.

[@oddyoda6443]

My take is that MK and Bayo are Winners. They are losers in the sense that the role they may have been made to fill may not necessarily be accurate, but it's because they are good at fucking everything. Bayo and MK are Winners

[@Yeoffrey]

When you hit us with that hidden 3rd row, then everything made sense. Loser as an archetype is mind blowing.

[@wait_in_gold_ON_SPOTIFY]

Fuck, I shouldn’t have read the comments. You spoiled me

[@tyleryoder9032]

As a R.O.B. main, proud he made it as the Fantastic spinning surprise killing robot. Was worried Smash 4 Mario got that category.

[@lucapon3287]

Classic coney forgetting about the strongest heavy to ever exist; 3DS Bowser

[@aggapuffin]

Love that the Fantastic Spinning Surprise Killing Robot also includes Incineroar. That's just funny to me.

[@Pikwii]

I like how this turned into Infinite Craft at the end XD, just creating characters from elements

[@callmefleet]

he turned on little alchemy mode

[@Lando-My-Love]

This stream was horrible, I loved it

[@PeeperSnail]

The funniest part about Sonic being the best Pacifist is that it’s not necessarily antithetical to how he behaves in his home series. There’s some games and extra material where he’s just- Not really there to beat anyone up at all.

[@4546Bean]

Haven’t watched the vid, but I assume the Luigi archetype is touch of death

[@lgachaboyyt]

Correct

[@dukecaliblap]

I think the best characters of each game perfectly exemplify smash's lack of clearly defined character archetypes. The reason the best characters are so good is because they can kind of just do whatever they want. Brawl meta knight is fast, has a shitload of jumps, and can glide. And that makes him really strong offensively, but that also makes him really strong defensively, and he can just choose to disengage if he wants. Smash 4 bayo could try to fish for a zero-to-death, or she could just wait for you to come to her and just kill you off a witch time combo. And steve can just do whatever the fuck he wants at all times. Smash is weird because the best characters aren't just the best characters of a given archetype. They're the best because they don't fall into an archetype

[@grunkleg.2934]

And any characters that lean hard into archetypes struggle for it. Duck Hunt is like the purest example of a zoner in the series, and they're so much worse than the Pac-Mans and Min-Mins of the world

[@colecoles8964]

@@grunkleg.2934yeah kinda like how snake is a zoner but at the same time has a lot of tools (utilt ftilt) that can kill early when fighting up close.

[@JackgarPrime]

"There is no other game that has a Jumplord!" There's a certain Stand-having bird that may disagree with you there...

[@Masaru_kun]

for the "brawler" archtype I actually think melee Falco is the best example. He tries to slow down rushdowns like Fox and Falcon, so he can win scrambles close-up. He relies on mix-ups and can't really kill in one combo like a Luigi. His laser is a zoning tool, but he has to be close to actually get damage and kills.

[@BigNoseEntmt]

9:10 "To get through tight spaces, press the circle button to slide."

[@owencmyk]

I definitely think Incineroar is more of a grappler than Brawl Dedede. What you're not understanding is that a grappler is not simply a character who's grab leads to good damage, a grappler is entirely built around their grab. They're usually slow and have good strike/throw mixes. Some other good examples of grapplers in Smash Bros would be Bowser and Ganondorf, who (at least at lower levels of play) often revolve around their command grab side-B. Combo grapplers are a sub-archetype that gets scary not because of their throw, but because of what the throw leads to, similar to Luigi.

[@KingBobbyG1223]

This has unironically changed my perception of smash archetypes and I hope people define characters as these 12 categories or any combination of them going forward

[@grunkleg.2934]

It's funny how Steve fits into at least half of these archetypes. Including Loser arguably, he does not function how he's supposed to. With Bayo or MK, they feel like they were designed to be a certain way, but ended up being really overtuned. Steve feels like he was designed to be a certain way, but ended up being so overtuned in other areas that it overrided his original design

[@xolotltolox7626]

Steve is probably the only top of the game character that's a loser

[@cylle3784]

Steve to me has a pretty clear archetype design which is a trapper. His best move that his whole gameplan is centered around, blocks, is a trapping move. The problem is that the move is really poorly coded and no characters except Sephiroth were designed to deal with walls so most of the roster just gets shut down by him. The biggest determining factor of if you match up well against him is if your character can deal with blocks. Steve is really not good at being a rushdown character. A good Luigi, yeah, but his movement stats are too slow to be rushdown.

[@ojospequenos]

alternative title: man yells at his chat for being wrong for two hours

[@cereza7526]

Seph being swordie zoner loser is so incredibly accurate

[@NinjaPickle]

I think there's something so funny about defining different game iterations by "Melee X" or "Brawl X", because it leads us having long legitimate thoughts on the nature of characters being named as "Ultimate Wario" or "Brawl Pit". Like those are just silly names don't you think

[@RockManSSB]

1:15 I made it onto a Coney video. I have peaked

[@Aidswayz]

I've followed Smash for years and I still don't know what the fuck to make of that tier list with like 15 characters in the Mario section. Little Mac being in the Jigglypuff section was the final nail in the coffin for my confusion. (Even if you’re saying Little Mac only stays in one place like Puff, then why the hell is Pichu there) What the FUCK is going on in that list!? Anyway good video Coney. Glad to see one of my favorite content creators make another list that pisses off their community :)

[@4546Bean]

Glass cannons

[@GottemGGs]

Either kill in one interaction or die

[@epicking8341]

I think it's just glass cannon characters that shut out damage but then they die out of nowhere

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

The mario tier is mostly all around brawlers with great physics and strong combos. Jigglypuff tier is reserved for incredibly volatile characters who still use all/most of their kit (unlike the Luigi, who really only has the one thing they fish for) (or just say glass cannons, that works too).

[@Aidswayz]

@@4546BeanThere are like 20 other missing characters

[@BragiZero]

So glad the Loser category exists. We finally have a place to put all three versions of Lucas.

[@tallercookie1188]

Funny how ultimate rob could be all of these categories

[@Sizzyl]

i think mario baseball is a swordfighter

[@MegiDolaDyne]

Someone in chat was cooking by saying 3rd Strike Makoto is a Luigi.

[@gastonEGGS]

This was entertaining. It’s so interesting how different platform fighters are from traditional fighting games. I loved how the chat went ballistic any time Coney opened his mouth.

[@NolenJacobson]

Since Coney doesn't fuck with 64 like that the archetypes go something like this if I'm trying to stick to the Coney categories Rushdown: Pikachu Zoner: Fox (laser goes stupid in 64) Link Jumplord: Kirby (also a swordfighter) Jigglypuff DJ Armour: Yoshi Luigi: Captain Falcon (f throw up air up air up air up b) DK Loser: Samus (charge shot the character, only character in the game with a bad combo game) Brawler(read as gets walled out by half the cast): Mario Ness Luigi

[@Givens43]

Smash Sundays into Marketing Mondays would go hard.

[@lunarumbreon7699]

Nothing gives me more joy than looking at chat and seeing “more tiers”

[@Ed-1749]

Elizabeth from P4A is a Luigi

[@treedude4246]

True

[@treedude4246]

Sol badguy in strive is a luigi

[@Ed-1749]

​@@treedude4246I dont think strive has ever had OHKOs, and you cant be luigi without them.

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

@@Ed-1749 Goldlewis would like to know your location

[@HerMajestyVelvet]

Hell yeah, I love Elizabeth

[@talkgomilk]

BRO WHEN IT GOT TO BRAWLER I LITERALLY SAID OUT LOUD MELEE FALCON AND I WAS RIGHT

[@davidlucena1807]

So makoto from street fighter 3 third strike is a Luigi by your definition of killing you on 1 interaction with a grab

[@BobfatherGaming]

I want to see this done like Rockman's list where every character has to be sorted into one archetype.

[@sharlockshacolmes9381]

Luigi not being the best Luigi is very on theme

[@magmarxiogaming6717]

I remember someone calling the smash equivalent to the shoto archetype the plumber archetype and that has not left my vocabulary ever since

[@NamelessGamer29]

I’ve never seen a more accurate thumbnail in my life

[@CharlieCreedonWells]

The like and subscribe buttons have never once lit up at the end of a video lmao

[@Breeze926]

Kazuya being the best Luigi archetype is the type of things only Coney would come up with and still make perfect sense.

[@pbz7572]

This is unironically the most helpful video ever at helping me understand smash character archetypes. Great job!

[@RuneSeoui]

I want a 5 hours video of Coney explaining why each character has certain archetypes.

[@rodgeers7347]

13:06 shoutouts to the editor for pranking coney here. This got me good

[@agustinlestrange4746]

"The best Luigi there has ever been in any Smash game is Kazuya. It's actually Kazuya."

[@Sly88Frye]

12:37 You could be right because Rosalina and luma was amazing in Smash 4 but ice climbers in brawl was the second best fighter in the game only losing out to Meta Knight

[@DauntlessBlade___]

"he who hold it, stolds it"

[@holdenarledge9672]

One of the best coney vids in years. Not only did I laugh out loud many times, but there’s genuine knowledge here

[@hmalba7864]

The only take away I have from this stream is Smash players have no clue what any of these terms mean

[@scooter9537]

being able to move around platform kinda just breaks down fgc archetypes

[@Gulfo_MX]

13:06 Thanks editor, very cool footage :)

[@byrontheusurper6505]

Normally don't watch coney opinion pieces but his smash opinions are always fun to watch

[@nonmagicalwitch]

If only there was a common name for characters that kill you in one touch. Yknow, like, Touch of Death.

[@v0idvice640]

okay but luigi’s a way funnier name for the archetype

[@fauxdude9756]

my friends always made fun of me when i played dedede in brawl, i feel so vindicated rn

[@unovarydrake]

I got an ad at 19:24 and thought Coney had the strongest bit of all time by just ending the video after revealing the character was Rob

[@drstclair]

Great argument about both the top tiers and low tiers not being automatics.

[@E_Fig05]

If there's one thing I can always count on in life, it's the fact that people will always argue about what archetypes Smash Characters are.

[@buddrjodie1584]

i think a brawler in smash would be a character that doesn't just hold forward but also sits back and waits, there's the balance of aggressiveness and defense. i think they would also be characterized by their short stubby hitboxes similar to rushdowns, but would have projectiles to help maintain their mid-range combat, but bad at full on zoning/rushdown. thats why i think the best brawler would be minecraft ste--(is killed off screen)

[@neckapples3526]

All I learned is that a Brawler is a Luigi you don't hate to loose against.

[@ricardoludwig4787]

This had such inconsistent standards, probably Coney''s best engagement fish

[@SeikOsito]

After seeing the smash marathon Coney did, I'm sure this will be well informed and have no biases Edit: Icies ≠ Cause it's a glitch and abuse of grab infinite Inciniroar ≠ Cause he imposes a threat in an area of the screen that limits your choices (actual command grab btw) DDD = Cause it's a glitch that abuses infinite grabs and imposes a threat to area of the screen(?)

[@karaseph1975]

"Melee Marth can't kill for shit" HUH

[@monkeyduhluffy]

i love Coney’s stuff but there is a tremendous lack of Melee knowledge here lol

[@AJ-sl7be]

He's kinda right though, unless your Zain who knows how to hit pivot Fsmash confirms, you might struggle to kill.

[@twelvevoltage]

marthritis is a real thing its hard for marth to close stocks above certain percents edit: hes the best swordie still though unless you count mk

[@GamerIsASlur]

Not doing melee marth for swordie kinda crazy tbh

[@lgachaboyyt]

cloud is broken

[@ButterStick64]

UMVC3 Vergil falling under the Luigi archetype is incredible.

[@Piggles64099]

As a Luigi player, Luigi is an archetype.

[@fadran11]

This is my first time hearing of all these archetypes, and even *I* knew from the moment he explained what a Zoner was that it was going to Snake

[@StarChargerStudios]

I feel like if we aren’t including olimar or iceies, then Rosalina is just the only puppet character, no? Like what’s the point of having puppet as a category when only Rosalina fits it?

[@masterofdoom5000]

I suppose one way to argue a characters status in an archetype is.....what happens if you take it away? If you take away chain grabs from Dedede he's dogshit, as he has been in 4 and Ult without any discernable identity outside of ledge trapping IF he hits you. At least Incineroar has Armoured moves and Revenge to allow him to get in and start smacking you.

[@lancelee338]

3:56 Hi Coney! Unemployed man here! I'm graduating from college in a week or so. You're about to lose a viewer :(

[@CONEYZZ]

Quit

[@Tiquono]

Loser pacifist is literally the best description of Inkling I've ever heard. Time to pick up Sonic!

[@kodra1510]

This list is like so incredibly accurate I was pleasantly surprised :) good job Coney! Only thing I’d change is maybe s4 sheik instead of melee falcon?

[@Czy_Coup]

as a fantastic spinning surprise killing robot main, he is every archetype, literally all of them

[@christiankoll1528]

"Sephiroth = swordy zoner loser" yeah, as a Seph main that checks out. The sword range is so long that it zones by default. But the grocery list of issues... like it'd be cool if i had some combos that didn't start with either a grab or neutral air, literally the only moves in his kit with no range (and such a terrible grab). And the neutral b is a noob trap, waaay too much start up and end lag, good luck using it as anything more than a fake out option against anyone decent (around 11mil gsp). Still love him, just feel like i have to work harder than i should have to relative to other picks for results.

[@Dude902]

I forgot Ridley existed until the very end

[@CharlotteMimic]

The bonus categories cracked me up LMAO

[@edododo5494]

This some insane Ice Climbers erasure I'm seeing. They could be considered the best grappler, best puppet and best luigi all at the same time.

[@yan_dj]

I like how R.O.B. is the best in every category so he gets disqualified for not being "just that category"

[@evilded2]

17:56 Ahh guilty Gear xx Bridget is a jump lord.

[@endersalasa3396]

“Luigi” characters actually do have a term in fighting games. One-Shot characters, if I remember right. Makoto in 3rd Strike and Nagoriyuki (at least in past seasons) are examples.

[@cbd075]

3:56 heyyyyy, counterpoint, I’m watching this on my break at my job

[@D--O]

The strongest rushdown in history vs the strongest zoner of today

[@yan_dj]

1:27 Wow apparently I'm just not a Pac-Man player, that archetype is just 90% of the characters I'm horrible with

[@Ducksaregreat]

“Fantastic spinning surprise killing robot” I wonder who that could be

[@LuigiFan1akaStar]

Nana, or Popo depending on costume, is just following the main Ice Climber and basically copy the moves. Lot like "controlling 2 characters at the same time" scenarios. Olimar's Pikmins is more of ammunition than anything in some ways. So, Rosalina & Luma being a puppet type just makes the most sense.

[@ngcf4238]

16:45 Coney, what about how broken small mii brawler was in Sm4sh? He had the ridiculous up throw --> fair--> Up-b cheese that would kill DK at 30 near the ledge, as well as being stupid fast with a small hitbox.

[@nhbons783]

Steve is the "im just gonna go build the twin towers see you assholes later"

[@GabrielHodge]

*family feud starts* *coney has evolved to BALD archetype*