This will actually HELP you! || Loudness Penalty Studio

[@macronencer]

I love the way you described the loudness issue by talking about control of the volume knob passing from producers to listeners. That's a very simple and clear way to think about it, in my opinion. This app is very interesting and has a beautifully designed interface!

[@SuperAgentAB]

Yeah! What an invention 😃👍

[@yesthisisdonut]

i work as an audio engineer in radio broadcast and in europe, the "new" standard loudness level (EBU R128) is actually -23 LUFS. gives us plenty of headroom. my employer and other radio stations are still transitioning from the older standard (-9dBFS TP) to EBU R128, pretty interesting time to work here.

[@DZAG_OFFICIAL]

Always wondered what differs to the LUFS standard tvs and broadcast stations have vs the musical ones

[@Rhythmattica]

Its awesome that I remember the days you where drawing schematics on synths etc.. and now mainstream... With important info.... So now helping many more... Respect. (I could be wrong about back in the day, but im sure it was you.....)

[@joseberroa4935]

I use Exposed and Levels and they help me a lot when Im finishing a track.. They gave me the feedback I need for dynamics and loudness range information in order to fix any issue at hand.

[@kenvives]

Anyone remember Crazy Eddie commercials? It’s used to be so much more annoying on television broadcasts. There are still many movies with a dynamic range issue with super quiet dialogue followed by loud sound effects that have me riding the “fader” on my remote. I fantasize about putting a compressor in my tv “audio chain”.

[@talktokale]

i know an engineer who does this on his home playback system for movies etc, a cheap dbx comp i think is what he uses lol

[@DerekJohn]

It’s purposeful, the commercials are always louder, you can solve it with a soundbar is what I’ve heard

[@keepitMoxx]

There are some Home Theaters / Soundbars that include a “Night” (or something similar) button, that is just basically a Compressor for that function.

[@talktokale]

@@keepitMoxx yeah, i've wondered if those are utilizing some sort of compression in general to optimize the sound that comes out of them. Kinda sounds like it to me, but I've only been around them a few times

[@dm1943]

I have a compressor in the output for all video streaming platforms. Set with a threshold to brickwall the $%^& commercials that are stupid loud compared to the program.

[@gregpastic6910]

Excellent video. Music production isn't just about creativity. There is an enormous amount of technical knowledge needed if you want to play in the sandbox with the big guys and gals.. Is it boring to learn technical stuff? Not when you achieve great results from your time and effort. Then it becomes exciting! I will also recommend this desktop app very highly. Loundness is dead, long live Dynamic Range!!

[@chiefauralist]

Can you say it AGAIN? DYNAMIC RANGE 🎉🎉🎉🎉 I don't think many "SO CALLED ENGINEER'S" know the term "DYNAMIC RANGE!!!! P to MF... (Know what I mean, VERN?)

[@GloveBunniesVideos]

"You can't touch music, but music can touch you." - Regular Show

[@hip-gun-studio]

I am with you to be glad that the loudness war is over. Also because i was never be able to get it that loud without damaging it badly. I never understood how they could do it that loud. But i like to listen without loudness normalization on spotify. i like when a track is quiter that the other. maybe cause its an old track for example. he is allowed to be more quite. or because its part of the genre. and since i am doing a lot of rock stuff…i usualy go over -14 LUFS…sometimes up to -9 LUFS. At -14 i dont feel the dynamic compression and the saturation and agression of the genre. But as you said, its a creative decission. i dont aim to be louder than someone else anymore!

[@maqimusic]

Heya, Wytse!! I always enjoy your videos, brother. I think this is one of your best ever!!!! The loudness wars should have ended at least ten years ago but they continue to this day. Thank you for speaking some common farking sense!!! One of the best online rants I've seen on this topic!!! Please keep doing what you do, sir!

[@chrstphbch]

From experience I can tell that -14 LUFS for every track does not translate to the same perceived loudness on every track. It is heavily dependent on the type and style of the track. More percussive tracks will get a lower rating therefore be turned down less so that they seem louder than very dense rock guitar tracks. You can test this yourself: Most rap and hip hop tracks on Spotify seem louder than for example a Foo Fighters track, especially if you focus on the volume of the vocals. As a result certain decisions in mixing and mastering definitely impact your "penalty" or rating in loudness so that you might end up with a track sounding less present or loud even if you hit the 14 LUFS target perfectly or surpass it.

[@Jaburu]

yea, LUFS does not really work, but it's the best we have. It works reasonably good if you stay in the same genre and period though.

[@Positive_Tea]

I feel and share your rage!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

[@soundhealer8661]

I have always turned off the loudness limitation whenever I use any streaming service. Despite I listen to many different genres I have never felt the need to change the volume I'm listening to. Some are a bit louder, some are quieter but really not a big difference.

[@DS-wn4dx]

Studio is looking good, nice to see different angles

[@natecornell-official761]

In recent years (ever since 32 bit become popular) I have noticed hit producers, mixers and mastering engineers actually mixing into KZbins compression. At times having peaks at +2 and +3 db. It's like the Wild West out there rn! Pretty amazing to see how people are getting their results these days. In my opinion, the ideal master is about -8 LUFs for most commercial music. Of course, the content of the song will dictate the dynamic range it should have!

[@cjcurcio]

But a -8 master is then going to be turned down by 6. 😀

[@natecornell-official761]

@@cjcurcio Yes it will, but that's ok. It won't sound any different than a track that is -14 on KZbin but will be noticeably louder other places. We also don't know what will come in the future. If the standard changes mastering to the loudest point possible while not sacrificing the quality is a good way to future-proof.

[@chiefauralist]

You do know that KZbin adopted the old standard NAB rendering protocol of 16bit 32kHz. This makes the CODEC'S (AAC and OPUS) happy and with minimal artifacts and aliasing. It also made KZbin compatible with ALL BROWSERS and PLAYBACK DEVICES. (Holy NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR BATMAN..Yes I am THAT YOUNG 😅😅) If you check out a video's audio component, you will usually notice that the bitrate is always maxed out at 128kbps..Even in 2024. (smdh) People claim they desire HD SOUND (who said that??😅 😅😅) But continue to digest their video content in "Substandard" (Yes, I said it) 16bit 32kHz resolution!!! 😮😮😮

[@chiefauralist]

​@@natecornell-official761Well said and I concur young padawon!!!

[@jocke1972]

@@natecornell-official761it will be less loud than what a more dynamic track will be at the loudest section(s)

[@vadimmartynyuk]

Bro the sandstorms you use in your videos all sound amazing , can you please make a list of them I want to listen to all of them

[@WillyKellyMusic]

I’ve been using the Loudness Penalty website and find it helpful! Too serious??? I’d send you some calming chamomile tea but I need all I have!!!! Thank you…😎

[@pthelo]

Wytse, this is a safe space. Please tell us- How do you really feel about loudness?

[@CLaw-tb5gg]

I updated to the newest version of Logic today, and I really appreciated a new feature they have called the Mastering Assistant where (as well as some fancy EQ-balancing juju which frankly is far better than the rather weird unnatural results that Izotope products produce) when you press a button that says "Master" on your master bus it listens to your whole track and automatically limits it to -14 LUFS, -1dB True Peak. The quality of the compression/limiting frankly I'm not nerdy enough to know about, but I really appreciate how mindlessly simple they've made it.

[@ProdDJD]

12:35 challenge accepted what happens when you abuse the k-weighting and optimize your track to be as loud as possible while being as quiet as possible in LUFS due to the k-weight 🤨 if you make certain parts loud it doesn't affect the LUFS value as much as others, but since the k-weighting isn't truly accurate to the human ear this can be abused and you can get lower LUFS values on music that is perceived louder than the LUFS value would lead you to believe... this is also one of my issues with normalization, it only thinks it's making tracks sound equal volume, but in reality some tracks are getting penalized far worse than they should and become much quieter because the louder frequencies in the track were unfavorable to the LUFS k-weight, while to the human ear it might sound quieter than the LUFS value provided...

[@ProductionAdvice]

The EQ has a far smaller effect than people think. I’ve seen some pretty extreme examples trying to “game” it in this way, and they aren’t very successful (or musical) I think the bigger issue is that it doesn’t sound right to have all songs the same level. Acoustic ballads are meant to sound quieter than heavy rock, so mastering (or normalising them) to the same level sounds musically wrong - and there are all kinds of grey areas between these extremes. That’s why the AES recommend that streaming services should use Album Mode loudness matching all the time, even in playlists and shuffle. TIDAL already does this and it sounds much more musically satisfying.

[@rubenzemog]

Exactly, you are totally right about everything there

[@PekkaImmonen]

In my experience mixing and mastering metal, if you target -14 LUFS, you will not get the good vibes of LOUD music. So it appears that targeting at least -9 LUFS or even up to -6 will do the trick. It does not matter if the volume is then turned down. The feel of the loud compression/limiting remains.... and listening bit further you said it that it's an artistic choice 🙂 I agree.

[@audiunt]

Same for music ment to be played in clubs. It needs to be aggressive and loud. Its just part of the genre.

[@Studio22mix]

Yepp, I try to aim around -9 lufs 😊

[@lusid_music_uk]

Compression and saturation sounds good. (If done correctly) Personally I’m short term at -3 LUFS on most of my stuff. That’s “the sound” you need for some types of music. I even accidentally got to 0 LUFS on one particular hardstyle drop. Fun times.

[@FlorentChardevel]

There's probably some truth to that, but I think it's an illogical way of thinking about loudness and LUFS. If you need your mix/master to have a specific amount of dynamics, compression and saturation, LUFS is not the right tool to use in that case. It was never designed for this. Using a limiter to get to a very loud master will incidentally affect dynamics and induce saturation, but there are probably more intentional ways to achieve this sound, imo. (I'm talking on a theoretical level, but I'm sure your mixes and masters sound good the way they are made.)

[@TrappoLone]

I master over 1000 songs per year and I totally agree with you.

[@someoneontheweb4303]

Love a good rant!

[@SinclairSound]

If you want to see the public's opinion of loudness normalization, just pay attention to the Hulu commercial conversation. Over air television has incredibly strict loudness standards for a reason, and the lack of it in streaming is incredibly frustrating for most people. Ultimately you get to make the decision on how you want to sound, and some genres actually desire less dynamic range. But you don't also get to dictate the user experience of music aggregation. If you want to hit -3lufs there's a place for you and your audience to hear that. A CD!

[@KeatingJosh]

Or treat cd with respect and it can sound amazing...

[@davidcampos9768]

Most of the people I know turn off the volume normalisation. Try playing music through a blue tooth speaker or earphones with a volume limit. You just won't get the song to its maximum loudness. Secondly there are several ways to game the Lufs system if you know how. Lufs is not exactly fool proof.

[@ProductionAdvice]

In my experience it’s mostly artists and engineers who disable normalisation (75% said they did when I asked in the Pensado’s group on FB) whereas I’ve been told that fewer than 17% of Spotify users change the default settings. As far as gaming LUFS is concerned, the examples I’ve heard haven’t exactly been musical…

[@paavoilves5416]

In addition to myself the only people I've heard turn off Spotify normalization are producers on internet.

[@DANItypebeat]

liked the part when you got all crazy about the volume control :D thank you for the information and great value

[@billpodolak7754]

Heads up - Spotify album normalization works by setting the loudest song to -14 LUFS and adjusting all the other songs on the album equally. It does not work by measuring the entire album and setting it to -14

[@dm1943]

Well Ranted!! I have analyzed over 100 commercially/professionion released songs to compare the differences between the normalized and "unnormalized" metrics. The songs that have been mastered to a True Peak Max of 0.0 to about -0.75 often have clipping due to the CODEC on BOTH the normalized and "unnormalized" playback. Anybody who ignores the advice to master to TP Max -1.0 or below is asking for unwanted distortion. Thanks for the great commentary on the loudness wars.

[@stevewoodyt]

I saw this website and left the tab open. Of course I forgot about it. Hopefully you can tell me what I never got around to learning.

[@Griuofficial]

Thanks for the video

[@javelin666]

im so glad you are this mad about the ludness-hysteria... gives me hope :)

[@happyshadow]

Its the labels, managers, AnR/decision makers who need to know about the loudness penalties. If I deliver a mix/master "for streaming" they will think Im rubbish at my job which means I can't make money for my family. And if I try to explain that loud tracks will be turned down they will switch off from listening and think Im waisting their time.

[@gnosis33-real]

I'm not sure if Spotify is actually turning stuff down...I was analyzing my signal from Spotify on my computer and almost every track was above -7 LUFS int. I'm not sure if I just changed a setting or something, but if I did, it wasn't intentional.

[@ApexErich]

Yeah there is a setting in Spotify for volume normalization. Maybe that is turned off for you?

[@teddym2808]

What would have made it even more useful is if it had a volume leveling function to actually even out all the files, like the TC and Nugen plugins can.

[@TaikiNulight]

Loudness, in a mix, has always been an artistic expression. I would say it is still moving forward for the audio mixing industry. Just in different directions for different artists. Spotify is the least of our concern.

[@Btb_Josiah]

How would you recommend mastering to avoid majority of volume control? I’m new to doing my own masters but I’ve got no clue how to make my lufs go down

[@gregpastic6910]

The loudness war began with the CD. The remote control allowed it to continue. Consumers would have screamed in protest if they had to jump from their chair and run to their stereo to turn music up down up down up down after each CD. The multi-disc player made it even worse! Sitting in your chair pushing a button made it tolerable. Joking aside, the movie production industry has had loudness standards in place for decades. You're right Wytse, our industry is dominated by the ego and the "my way" approach. Great for creative results, not for technical ones though.

[@serial_sequence2k]

The loudness wars have been around since vinyl. 7" 45's were cut to be loud so then they could be heard to "sound better" when played on a jukebox. This also continued on into the 80s up till the 2000s with club cuts on 12" singles. Mastering engineers wanted their cuts to be as loud and punchy as possible without causing the stylus to skip. DJ's wanted loud records for a better crowd reaction. Mastering has always been a competition for better or for worse.

[@adambutcher3194]

Yeah loudness wars were being fought long before CD's. Vinyls were being cut so loud that the stylus would jump out of the grooves of the record.

[@gregpastic6910]

@@serial_sequence2k You are right, but the reasons for pursuing loudness on vinyl was primarily to minimize the noise floor which included electronic noise, tape hiss, and the physical noise created by a stylus scraping through a groove, so it made sense to push the level as high as possible while avoiding distortion. In the digital / CD era there is no noise floor, the dynamic range available is larger.Technically it makes no sense at all to push levels by crushing dynamic range and clipping peaks aggressively. A little goes a long way. 🙂

[@serial_sequence2k]

@@gregpastic6910 That generally is the norm for cutting acetates. Usually at the expense of play time. But for the 45 12" single, mastering engineers pushed the loudness as far as they could, especially with DNB records. Some of the plates from Simon at the Exchange and Porky prime cuts were seriously loud beyond the point of just hiding the noise floor. It's all dependent on the genre and its use case with lower dynamic ranges. DNB for instance sounds much better when clipping and heavy compression is used.

[@macronencer]

KZbin's sponsored video next to this was for Estée Lauder, and I found that hilarious.

[@STAR0SS]

I would start by being precise with the words we are using : "In acoustics, loudness is the subjective perception of sound pressure." Thus, you can't increase the loudness of an audio file.

[@martijn_nl]

In this context loudness is measured as a signal using a model based on equal loudness curves of the human hearing ( Fletcher-Munson curves ). It's standardized and displayed as dB LUFS. It has nothing to do with personal perception.

[@STAR0SS]

@@martijn_nl It's still not loudness, you're not controlling loudness by boosting your mix, because the user/spotify is in control of the volume at which the track is played.

[@martijn_nl]

@@STAR0SS You are referring to the subjective perception of loudness or loudness measured with a dB meter. dB LUFS is a different type of loudness to compare material when taking the volume control out of the equation. What would you call the difference in level between tracks with your volume control at a fixed position?

[@stevedoesnt]

Yo, that overhead shot was cool as hell.

[@louiscassis3426]

Some of the level control is about making the commercials the loudest.

[@fftunes]

Some of the level control is about making the commercials NOT the loudest, and it worked pretty well. TV ads were terrible a decade or longer ago.

[@tonoormusic]

I always turn it off as well, that's because I'm an album listener exclusively. Try listening to The Wall with it turned on, you'll regret it immediately. If you listen to playlists, I agree.

[@tonoormusic]

Sorry, you adress the album! Spotify must have changed that because a couple of years ago it was annoying to listen to albums. Sorry!

[@JJaxxon]

Bit Different in topic but i think on bigger systems more dynamic music will benefit much more Its about clarity and composition rather than loudness My opinion

[@Bkoded]

i will say a slightly punk part of me doesnt agree with being forced to a standard, especially when i make my music partially for me, i dont want someone to decide a part of that for me (especially with limiting), HOWEVER, i did grow out of loudness, because it ultimately just sounds worse, a good mix you should be able to crank if you wish to, and have it sound pleasant (which i absolutely love), all these mixes that are smashed thru a limiter are sometimes just agonising to listen to at higher levels, and still fatiguing when theyre not, i dont appreciate getting jumpscared either. i guess a lot of this paranoia stems from just, misinformation, as you said its just volume thats being changed for the most part (which i will say the delivery was great), which i actually agree with, it allows those of us that are putting effort into having our mixes sound as good as we can to avoid being overshadowed by someone thats just as mentioned eariler smashed their mix through a limiter. And this is done without having some sort of weird "big brother" approach.

[@weddy5700]

I’ve rarely seen you so upset 😮 please don’t 😢 very informative by the way! This will be my next step when I’m done with my EP recording and mixing (all done with a static mix with subtle touch of isotope products, don’t scream!)

[@Projacked1]

Facts, some people can't handle them, period. The reason why dj's are 'artists' now. -> level control on mixing other people's songs..

[@Revontuletband]

Not every streaming service actually uses normalization. Even if you're listening to Spotify via a browser (not a desktop app) you can see/hear/check the real loudness a song was mastered to. For example, most of recent symphonic metal releases (I'm talking about 2022-2024 years) have integrated loudness of about -8 -7 lufs, and the ones that are lower than that will sound much weaker in comparison, while if normalization is applied, they all will sound very similar to a listener

[@f3rny_66]

on mac maybe that setting it doesn't affect the sound, but on windows iirc (most high end sound cars doesn't even have the option in the drivers) the loudness equalization setting actually acts like a compressor, it boosts below a threshold (technically it drops volume over the threshold but becuase of the automate makeup gain it ends like a simple compressor. I also remember it killing stereo image for some weird reason)

[@jocke1972]

You’re taking about codecs, not operating systems. You can use any codec on any platform and there are a lot of variables (adda conversion, codecs, amplifiers, speakers, system overall volume etc)

[@f3rny_66]

@@jocke1972 no, I'm talking about operating systems, is my comment, I know what I'm talking about in my own commment because I wrote it

[@pyreneanandy]

Great app, good visualisation, simple interface

[@SteveGietz]

Mix Engineer: I'll mix to -12 LUFS Mastering Engineer: I'll master to -9 LUFS Artist/Label: -7 LUFS sounds much mo betta Listeners: LUFS what? Audiophile: Off with evil, demonic loudness normalization!! Humans are complicated. Just do what the artist wants.

[@FlorentChardevel]

If some engineers don't understand LUFS, I don't know if I even want to try explaining it to the artists...

[@SuperAgentAB]

Dolby Atmos: -18 LUFS or bust

[@alexv4907]

The primary issue for me is I'm writing EDM tunes for DJs. They get released on streaming platforms but loudness is of paramount importance if your goal is to have DJs play your music in clubs or at festivals. There is no way around it.

[@sparella]

If the person paid to provide music can't work a volume control on the queued channel, I dunno if anything will help them be successful. I'm not saying you're wrong but can't we assume some level of competence?

[@alexv4907]

It's not that they can't. DJs will not put a track in their set if the loudness/energy drops off. There's so much music out they'll just find a different track to play instead that matches the level of the other tracks they are playing in their set.

[@rogercabo5545]

I'm confident that AI will soon take over mastering tasks, automatically handling EQ, limiting, and compression. Additionally, it could analyze any high-quality master and adapt its sound characteristics to your track. Furthermore, AI might even allow us to adjust individual sounds within a stereo master. So, there's no need to worry-AI can handle it!

[@VinceJackson1]

Great Video 😁 The problem is the major mastering houses are still trying to out loud each other. Even if you target -14 average your music will sound weak & lack the energy compared to those that are summited at -8 & above!

[@Willigrow]

That all sounds good, but when you check most comercial pop, edm, hiphop, metal, etc. releases they all go to like -6LUFS with peaks clipping like +0.5dB. And when you send your client something mastered at -10, -11LUFS they all want it louder.

[@SuperAgentAB]

This is why independent artists have full control of their songs since they can create their own rules.

[@marcosluc3220]

What do you think about differences in volume between youtube video and youtube music ??

[@gwsound]

Listening to load mastered tracks in clubs is very tiring for the visitors. It could be one of the reasons why clubs are loosing their customers and many are closing.

[@soundshigh]

I am turning off normalization for a resaon - music with guitars, live drums or just more instrumentation will feel quieter at -14LUFS than electronic or pop genres with upfront vocals and a lot more minimal instrumentation.

[@kevindewinter8235]

Last week i turned off all the fancy features of spotify and made a playlist of the quality and level i like. Then i imported my own master map and its a chill way to compare. What do you peeps think about that?

[@rich1051414]

A lot of people think normalization means loudness compression because of devices poorly labeling this setting. Now people have trust issues.

[@guyvermearns]

This is a great tool to help combat the mental anxiety which comes from competing in the loudness war. Like you say, it may help someone realise that they are over compressing their track.

[@violetskystudio]

Question: if a song ends up significantly louder than -14 LUFS in order to get a specific sound out of the music, should you turn the master down so that it’s not at -1 DB true peak to get it to the proper LUFS value, or leave it full volume and allow the streaming services handle that with their auto normalization?

[@ProductionAdvice]

Personally I leave it at the musical loudness I’ve chosen, and allow Spotify to handle the gain control.

[@pyanek]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the process of normalizing loudness inevitably introduce quantization errors and rounding artifacts? I mean, since it's a digital none bit-perfect process... In this sense it's not like a volume knob because the signal is literally being altered. It might be an inaudible difference, but it is still a difference, even if perhaps only felt subliminally.

[@sparella]

If such a difference exists as anything other than noise, and I don't think it does, it would be inconsequential compared to the alteration introduced by the codec.

[@fftunes]

The trick is to have long quiet intros and outros, or skits on albums ...

[@p-a4298]

That will not work, the LUFS measurement don't take into account the quiet part of your music. They actually put a lot of brainpower into this :)

[@fftunes]

@@p-a4298 integrated lufs measures (i.e. averages) the whole track from start to finish, including a potentially quieter intro & outro. You might think of short-term lufs, but that's not what spotify is looking at.

[@fftunes]

@@p-a4298 integrated lufs measures (i.e. averages) the loudness across a whole track from start to finish.

[@p-a4298]

@@fftunes yes but it stops averaging when it's goes 10db under the integrated value. Look up "loudness gate" or something like that

[@Jaburu]

@@fftunes very quiet pats get excluded from the calculation. Don't remember the exact values but you can find out

[@olivarius-SirOli]

Breathe my friend, breathe! 😀 good views of yours 👍

[@RoanMartin]

so when are we getting "ITS JUST FUCKING VOLUME CONTROL" merch

[@mpstudionorway]

I have the original, is there any special price for previous owners?

[@ProductionAdvice]

We’ve had a few people ask about this and we’re looking at some options, but this is an entirely new standalone desktop product, not an upgrade for the original plugin (which is still available). So the best deal will be to get the intro price, even if you already own the plugin.

[@mpstudionorway]

​@@ProductionAdvice I hear you. While it's an upgrade, a discount for existing Studio owners would be greatly appreciated. After all, if we purchase the Studio version, the older version becomes in some ways ''obselete''.

[@notestetragona]

but do streaming services really use limiters to control loudness? I think they just adjust the gain internally at the player.

[@SuperAgentAB]

Spotify only afaik.

[@paavoilves5416]

@@SuperAgentAB From Spotify: "Negative gain is applied to louder masters so the loudness level is -14 dB LUFS. This lowers the volume in comparison to the master - no additional distortion occurs. Positive gain is applied to softer masters so the loudness level is -14 dB LUFS. We consider the headroom of the track, and leave 1 dB headroom for lossy encodings to preserve audio quality. Example: If a track loudness level is -20 dB LUFS, and its True Peak maximum is -5 dB FS, we only lift the track up to -16 dB LUFS." I don't think they use a limiter.

[@martijn_nl]

This video has a loudness measurement of +2.3 dB above the KZbin target so the small penalty limits the volume control at 77% 😊

[@MDHeleniak]

Hey Wytse, love your content. Sounds like you have upped the compression on your VO mic. A little too much for these tender ears. You are suffering a loudness penalty with me. :-)

[@WilliamAshleyOnline]

uh so like why not like just turn up your speakers and mix at lower output at the mix stage but like amplify it?

[@Monday469]

ok its 14 luvs, do not punch your face. I have one very nice affect, with gigcaster 5 i just trun down de lvl to minus 20db. this gives a very good result. but gigcaster 5 become unstable aaahhhh (synalse deep reverb maybe strugle???)

[@trevorellis-guice5794]

A lot of consumers are turning off normalization. Meaning that if you mastering to not get turned down youre gonna sound crazy compared to the track that doesn’t care

[@ProductionAdvice]

This is something I hear a lot, but mainly from artists and engineers. Whereas I’ve been told that fewer than 17% of Spotify users do this. On KZbin, which has 80% of streaming users, it can’t be disabled…

[@thejacevekexperience]

@@ProductionAdvice thank you. People be swimming in conformation bias on this subject. They want to Let EDM, metal and hip hop decide what loudness should be. So they naturally say “people switch of normilazation anyway” No, - Actually there's a lot of people with enough ear damage that they cant listen any other way. But the rest of the word doesn't care if your kick drum slams 2 lufs harder than the other one. It's all Ego. If 2 decibels of Loudness is what an artists stakes their reason to be on, maybe its time to switch to culinary.

[@---pp7tq]

​@@ProductionAdvice It can be disabled on YT with "No KZbin Volume Normalization" Tamper Monkey script. I recommend.

[@dxnxxl_k]

it is altering/limiting the sound because in many modern genres there is less than -1dB of truepeak. for example edm is often -0.1dB true peak. german hiphop is -0.5 dB true peak many trap song aim for around -0.3 true peak. and when these platforms use a limiter it can change your intendet transienst because the attack and release are set by auto. and when they are squashing your song with a limiter, the tonal balance is shifting. just because you screamed "its just volume" does not mean ur right

[@paavoilves5416]

This is from Spotify: "Target the loudness level of your master at -14dB integrated LUFS and keep it below -1dB TP (True Peak) max. This is best for lossy formats (Ogg/Vorbis and AAC) and makes sure no extra distortion’s introduced in the transcoding process." The -1dBTP rule is not because of any limiting but because of transcoding to a lossy format and avoiding distortion. "If your master’s louder than -14dB integrated LUFS, make sure it stays below -2dB TP (True Peak) to avoid extra distortion. This is because louder tracks are more susceptible to extra distortion in the transcoding process."

[@paavoilves5416]

"Deliver your audio files to us in FLAC or WAV format (we highly recommend FLAC). When we get your audio files, we do the following: Check they aren’t corrupt and the format container is known Transcode the file into different delivery formats for our audio quality options: - Ogg/Vorbis (96, 160, 320 kbps) - AAC (128, 256 kbps) - HE-AACv2 (24kbps) - Calculate the loudness of the whole release and individual tracks using the ITU 1770 standard We also encrypt the audio files before they’re delivered to the platform."

[@dxnxxl_k]

@@paavoilves5416 First of all, mastering music to -14 LUFS is not what you should do! Modern music should typically be mastered to at least -10 LUFS. Also, true peak isn't critical. I know EDM producers who don't focus on true peak levels and still pass Spotify's checks without any issues. I've released a vast number of songs on Spotify myself and have never encountered a problem. Different genres require different standards. I use the Ozone codec preview for checking codec conversion and mono compatibility of my masters. Spotify only applies a limiter if your master is too quiet. I always adhere to the ITU 1770 R2LB standard for measuring LUFS and dynamic range, which is the default in Waves WLM Plus. My tracks typically achieve -8 LUFS long-term and range from -6 to -5 LUFS short-term, with a dynamic range of 1-3, especially when I’m producing German Hip-Hop. I’ve never had any complaints and have never needed to use the normalization assistant.

[@TropicIslandMusic]

2:05 Guitar players LMAO. As player myself you are 100% on the money!!

[@simonh9034]

I have normalization turned off and for me personally it results in a better listening experience, it's one thing to have to turn a song up or down once in a while but for me it's much more invasive to my experience if I have to turn something up that sounds like I should be turning it down. I agree that we should respect normalization's popularity among listeners as engineers, but I honestly disagree that normalization actually results in a superior listening experience.

[@StellarWorks2023]

Yes Wytse, tell them!

[@EarmWermChannel]

Spotify turns down music by far too much. I have a nice system in my Audi, but I have to crank the shit out of Spotify stuff. Meanwhile, if I throw in a CD, its sounds incredible at a much lower volume. Not only better, but perceivably clearer.

[@paavoilves5416]

Spotify also transcodes music into lossy codec so the quality in general isn't as good as with the 16bit 44.1kHz wav your CD has. Basically like turning down a meh quality mp3 by at least 5dBFS vs an uncompressed 16bit wav at full volume. Though I still do like listening through Spotify, I do still recognize it's flaws.

[@RudeRecording]

But if your mix volume is too low none of the streaming services will turn the track up. Turning the track down is not that evil just stay within the technical specs.

[@SuperAgentAB]

Only Spotify can turn up the quiet tracks (afaik).

[@LockWithNoKeys]

Part of what makes your channel kind of enigmatic is your rants and arguments are enantiodromic, it kind of makes it feel like I’m more lost in the woods than before…

[@DJAdalaide]

Anyone notice how youtube does not play music when you're on mobile and scrolling on the homepage with the audio turned on?

[@redbigapplefloppa302]

You have to have the loudness-equalization option turned on to have this effect though, right?

[@Whiteseastudio]

Its on by default

[@redbigapplefloppa302]

@@Whiteseastudio oh, i wasn't aware of that. I have an iphone and use apple music and i remember having to turn it on. But that was a few years back, maybe i remember it wrongly

[@Studio22mix]

@@redbigapplefloppa302 you’re right 😊

[@audiunt]

How would you explain this to Skrillex or some random top notch hardstyle producer? Would they benefit from -14dBLUFS? I would think that the lag of dynamic range is part of the sound, or am I wrong? Turned down by the streaming services would also not a problem I guess.

[@Randuski]

He wouldn’t need to explain this to them, cause they are very much aware that Spotify turns their music down haha it’s inconsequential. Also, they don’t make their music for streaming. They make their music for performing. And whatever happens on streaming it doesn’t matter. They push their music that hard because it sounds good for that genre….usually haha skrillex sounds amazing even at -5 -4. Knife party, at least his older shit, was genuinely compromised by being that loud. Sounded like ass haha

[@---pp7tq]

@@Randuski But you better respect Make It Bun Dem

[@Randuski]

@@---pp7tq wow that’s a throw back hahaha literally haven’t listened to that track since, well, like 2011 haha

[@pedalscapes]

Superb 😎

[@cjcurcio]

It's always been about volume - just that!

[@NeelleeStenat]

Wait wait wait, let me get this clear... so it's just volume control, right?

[@unc1589]

Woah! You stepped on a philosophical landmine and it went boom. I’m older than you. I lived in the era when the industry had making and selling music down to a science. And the public loved it. There is such a thing as “formula!” Those with opinions were not respected. Why trust opinions when facts, procedures, historical precedent, was so readily available. There was no opinion guy. When an A&R guy told the label “you gotta sign this band!” It wasn’t an opinion! The guy went to the clubs, the small shows, the places where music lovers hung out. It was a hunch based on corresponding data. Today it’s “well that’s your opinion.” Today, if you’re wrong it’s “ no worries! No judgement. Do you.” (The most destructive phrases in the 20th/21st centuries.) Back then if you were wrong you got fired on the spot! “My Bad” couldn’t save you. So you’re right. Facts exist! And opinion people hate that. I tend to believe that musically, people are the same as always. So formula based on facts still work.

[@fftunes]

Also, wow, that thing is quite expensive. I'll just keep using their free website and the free loudness meters i have and do some math.

[@robgreenlandMusic]

😂 your passion for loudness is unsurpassed. Useful app, IMHO 😂.

[@mattbukovski92]

I hate that advice to master to -14 LUFS. It's maybe good for detailed jazz/soul/delicate pop music, but low dynamic range and fat wall of sound is nice for EDM and there are good-sounding ways to do that are possible without destroying the sound (it's often psychoacoustics, or using distortion and clippers the proper way). They require great arranging, sound design and mixing skills though. Without a balanced track, pushing it loud is impossible. My techno/trance/house masters of my own stuff hit around -6 LUFS and it sounds good to me (I can't hear any unpleaseant skrrrrrttt distortion), and it works good in the club too. My tracks are often slightly louder on Spotify too because their loudness normalization is not perfect. Most pop and EDM mastering engineers clip/limit their drops and choruses to -5 or -6 LUFS and the loudness war is still on. They can't all be wrong and they engineer for huge labels and big names.

[@SuperAgentAB]

Thank goodness for Atmos Music exist whether we hate the format or not.

[@Sneakycat1971]

In case anyone didn't know, The AI music generators are now mind-blowing. Suno AI and Udio are the very best on the market. There will be no need for musicians or singers anymore. I'm sad to say my man no use for studio engineers. If you can write songs you are golden. I suggest you have a look at these websites or get left behind in the music business. Maybe there will be no music business cuz everyone can create masterpieces now

[@Whiteseastudio]

I can’t take a look, I’m curled up in the corner, crying 😭

[@Sneakycat1971]

@@Whiteseastudio would go ahead and start looking for a new career

[@Dispoboy1]

When you Talk about Loudness normalisation on Platforms, you do not mention that they will turn you down, but Not up. Therefore, People will try to be as loud as possible to compete and rather be pur down a bit than being not loud enough in comparison. A true loudness normalisation would cure this Problem.

[@musicmwmusic]

Who knew that our inability to understand the difference between absolute and relative numbers would be our undoing. Audio engineers?..

[@echomusicswe]

Awesome content, info, etc I love it 😍

[@ReStee-n1f]

most of those platforms allow you upload your musick for free just 2 cents

[@EZXG2077]

The loudness is still the problem to Heavy or Metal or Classic music genre. All heavy and Metal and Classic songs are still not loud enough compare to those Pop Rap Hip Hop song.

[@patrickanthony3572]

Wait. It’s just volume control, but you stated that if a track is under -14LUFS streaming platforms may apply a limiter which would affect the sound? So it sometimes could affect the sound ?

[@ProductionAdvice]

Actually this only happens on Spotify (with the “Loud” setting enabled in the prefs, which is a subscriber-only option) On all the other services it won’t be turned up if that would cause clipping, so the songs will just sound a little quieter than the loudest stuff

[@PatrickBuzoMusic]

awesome

[@lilwombat]

I'm more thrown off when the loud song is about as loud as the ambient song. I find that way more annoying so I've always turned normalisation off. I also think songs that are mastered to -14 just sound more boring

[@TroubadourMusic]

Where's the "love" button??

[@77advanced]

Is there one track in top10 ever with -14 lufs or lower)? It is like parallel reality, everybody talking about -14, but nobody follows that rules.

[@SinclairSound]

Well if you're listening on Spotify, they are all -14LUFS... that's literally the point. You are hearing the normalized results. Edit: I assume you mean if they are mastered to -14LUFS... Some probably are, some aren't depending on the mastering house. But they are all going to be at -14LUFS, and if you are above it, you are just sacrificing peak level when you get turned down.

[@ChristianBoragine]

because the people making decision at that level do not know anything about audio, it's just a bunch of managers/marketers that want to justify their income by forcing decisions.

[@77advanced]

@@SinclairSound yep, but still percepted loudness of -7lufs track is higher than -14lufs track even if they equalized

[@SinclairSound]

@@ChristianBoragine No its not, if you've ever watched TV or listened to radio you've been experiencing loudness normalization. We have loudness standards for a reason when aggregating. If you don't want it you don't have to participate in aggregation, and can sell direct to consumer

[@SinclairSound]

@@77advanced this can both be true or false. It will have to do with a number of things, not simply how much you push a track into a limiter to reach the measurement number of -7LUFS.

[@tianroba]

Cool video, but that's not how Spotify handles normalization on albums. To clarify, the album normalization on Spotify is based on the average level of the loudest song and not on the average loudness of the whole album.