TERRIBLE Synergy with Junglers; Not an ELITE Mid - Nemesis's Career in LEC - League of Legends

[@Thooorin]

Insert your tantrums and cognitive dissonance below. If you'd like to be able to focus long enough to watch a 40 minute video then maybe check out GamerSupps.

[@SuckToBeYou]

Coming from the biggest cognitive malfunction this side of the League community, that's a compliment

[@exucia669]

didnt watch, just disliked and left, u mad?

[@Expanses02]

@@exucia669 No, just proved his point lmao

[@gilarlington4993]

@@exucia669 no. U are commenting hate. U seem to be the mad one.

[@exucia669]

@@Expanses02 seethe

[@acsu96]

jesus christ thorin's editorial decisions on which guest intro to use before videos are straight fire

[@LegendaryBilly]

Bottomline is, Nemesis blames everyone else but him. Quick to criticize, slow(if ever) to reflect. Not the hallmarks of a true great competitor.

[@Itsundiscovered]

It seems that a lot of the time he blames others, but this is because of several factors. First, he doesn't actually cause or make that many mistakes compared to his teammates and played a lot better then people gave him credit for. Most midlaners were a walk in the park, apart from G2 when they are just that bit better then he is. He also plays and likes playing scaling midlaners, so he doesn't have a direct impact on the game for the first 20 minutes, where someone like Caps goes for 'ego plays' and advantages in lane, when Nemesis takes the more 'play better in the long run and outscale' approach. This means that the majority of impactful mistakes will actually come from his teammates, and he can't make up for them himself until late, again in contrast to a player like Caps. Add on to that, difference in opinion across the team and everyone having a general ego and you get a situation where someone like Nemesis, who naturally is introverted and finds it hard to admit fault, easily can show and justify that he wasn't the problem. He is quick to both criticise and reflect, as criticising is some form of reflection in itself. The reason you don't see it nearly as much is that he doesn't say it out loud, as there is no need to. Unfortunately thinking when other people are at fault doesn't help to change it for the better, so you see a lot of negativity from him without seeing the criticising that he does of himself. All that being said, he definitely too negative and it really hurts chances of ever becoming truly relevant in the pro scene again

[@distortion6981]

I feel like what Thorin truly wants is Nemesis to come back and prove him wrong.

[@uncledomek]

I am pretty sure Nemesis makes more money streaming etc. And doesn’t give a shit about Thorin’s opinion. Which is obvious because who actually does XD

[@kietnguyen4317]

@@uncledomek Apparently you, at least enough to click on his video and leave a salty comment

[@uncledomek]

​@@kietnguyen4317 If I did I would actually watch it. Which I didn't.

[@두이-e8w]

@@kietnguyen4317 yeh we just here for the dislike ^^

[@del46_60]

@@두이-e8w Sounds like you care a lot then. Considering Nemesis and LS tried to go through a VOD to prove Thorin wrong and gave up halfway through that they care a lot too lmao.

[@yellowastronaut2921]

The Upset intro LMFAO

[@radom-cw2ey]

FNC Bean!!! 💪💪💪

[@rohangoswami1142]

The like-dislike ratio is 1:1 lol. So what thorin said is true, quite a polarizing player in terms of opinion of the masses.

[@3MAR443]

We must keep it balanced 😎

[@MarioGomez-kj5bc]

I mean hes just there sitting critizicing players

[@chinchilla_462]

It means it's rather bad.. since when we are on the KZbin channel of thorin of course a lot of fans of thorin will like this no matter what he says

[@ademkader3945]

Uhh, so I guess with that logic, what he said about TSM being a polarizing sheep team in terms of opinion of the masses was not true? Cs those videos got 500:1 like-dislike ratio. Maybe hes actually wrong this time? since its literally one of his only 1:1 ratio videos, eventhough hes gon after some very,very big names.

[@user-ib1dd1yi7d]

@@MarioGomez-kj5bc that his job "mario gomez" you probably have 140 iq right

[@tomthinnaorem1185]

I have to agree with the ego thing. Just watching LS last few KZbin videos on MSI games , you can really easily see how 'know it all' nemesis acts.

[@Jack-fh1qh]

i think that’s an effect of hanging out with LS, he knows if people criticize him that he has the backing of LS who is a very loud and knowledgeable voice (though he can be wrong)

[@mikerandomhighlights5491]

Its mainly because he has better knowledge of the game than most of other players, I would be mad at the players aswell if i saw someone building incorrect items because most of the players don't even think about the game (viz. Blaber selecting future's market without knowing what it does or how to use it correctly to get advantage)

[@the_beemer]

@@Jack-fh1qh Also he probably adopted a lot of LS manners and LS says himself that he intentionally presents his opinions like that, because asserting your opinions like that is what gets you range and views. He also says that's why noone watches Phreaks Patch Rundowns even though they are probably the best quality ones on YT, because people like to be screamed at and noone watches calm long winded analysis. So Nemesis has probably adopted a lot of that rhetoric

[@francesco8000]

I'm pretty sure that Nemesis became more popular AFTER he left FNC. I guess it's the LS effect.

[@disturbed1734]

Might be that he's more entertaining as a streamer than as a pro.

[@DoggyP00]

@@disturbed1734 I have confirmed that you did not watch Nemesis streams before recently

[@charohazard]

@@DoggyP00 hes way more entertaining waht do you mean, he has way more personality now

[@terribleplayer2526]

nemesis personality boiled down is LS said this so he must be right

[@DoggyP00]

@@charohazard ??? I don't think you read what I wrote... but when Nemesis start streaming, he basically didn't talk at all. Eventually he started mumbling and only recently has he started having a personality. Even still you only watch him for gameplay and his lore

[@whorainsan]

This G2 vs FNC final, Hylissang went 0/15/13 And Bwipo went 2/16/7 in this series Not even Faker Prime could carry such inters. Bwipo Zac KEKW

[@apollosungod6673]

totally agree tbh

[@haximnida]

Yeah this is a point I disagree with thorin, you cant really blame lemon for not doing anything when your teammates put you into a difficult situation.

[@rehash3d]

Gotta make up facts in order to make Nemesis look bad, to match his POV

[@spartanvinc]

Its easy to not int when you dont do anything. When did nemesis ever step up when it matterd.... Never...

[@bartoszbartosiewicz1123]

@@spartanvinc Just step it up bro, just carry your team inting. Well fuck, lets get team that wants to play aggro with Hyli and Bwipo, it will be great instead of some pussy ass Nemesis. Oh fuck, our team crashed and burned and now our toplaner is roleswaping to jungle, well shit. I don't even think Nemesis is that great and i agree with the point of being stubborn, but holy fuck this entire video got invalidated by what happened this spring.

[@Snootz86]

I mean he isn't elite level if Caps.. Faker.. Showmaker.. Chovy.. Rookie.. Doinb etc is the standard level for elite.. still very good and would be top 5 in LEC right now and thorin even says as much lol.. why are people mad??

[@sownyp9980]

Because they didn't watch the video. Just mad fanboys, nevermind them

[@jamescalder5115]

Because they saw the title - didn’t listen to what he said and immediately started crying... because it’s Nemesis.

[@ilie5219]

The point is how he pointed that out." It was his bad if FNC lost" or untrue shit like this. I'm sure nemesis himself doesn't yet put himself on faker chovy level but all the points that he used to justify "nemesis is not elite tear" are dumb and not proved.

[@jleif7736]

@@ilie5219 Well Nemesis thought he was better than DoinB in 2019. You have to have to be utterly delusional to think that. So I could only imagine he was a shit teammate as well, with an ego the size of his peanut shaped head.

[@M.L.official]

Because they are stupid

[@joeshang3574]

Smoothless transition to the ad. Banger

[@nanidafaq2931]

ngl they always clean af

[@Boggartwh]

interesting how this 40min video was uploaded 25min ago and the dislikes are already this high no way people are disliking it just because of the title without watching it, right?

[@leewin1736]

Well I can understand on why people feel offended by that title

[@terribleplayer2526]

If a title enrages, offends you then log off the internet lmao.

[@Expanses02]

​@@leewin1736 It's just the difference in what Thorin considers to be an elite pro and what many fans consider to be elite, in many of his talk shows he repeatedly talks about what he means by elite and what standard he keeps for elite level players.

[@nouramine171]

Because Nemesis is live on LS twitch channel the moment the video got uploaded , it's just chat raiding the video

[@mmapl7166]

its just the 12y old LS chat fanboys raiding dont mind them

[@petershayler1273]

This video is a like / dislike war lol

[@BitcoinCashPodcast]

It's just the classic Yogi Berra quote for Nemesis - "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't." It's easy to talk big, hard to deliver championships.

[@mihirx27]

Thorin is probably enjoying the massive KZbin interactions he's getting from malding Nemesis blind fans lmaooo

[@i_dont_know_who_i_am69]

i disagree with many things thorin said here, but people don't know that disliking and commenting on a video also helps with the algorithm, good for him.

[@Rayon811]

LMAOOOO the downvotes, sheesh. I asume everyone has already watched 40min video.

[@3df6c]

I love how the chat proves his first point lamo

[@attepietarinen1122]

Really loved the video. I'm personally a fan of Nemesis and I think he has the potential to win a title, but right now his legacy is one of mediocrity. Let's hope he proves you wrong, but it's hard to see that happening if doesn't have the drive to win.

[@nguyentri3608]

@MasterSwagKing Entertainment yeah but he COULD be good. We already all see the potential of mid laners in his tier (larsenn, humanoid), maybe he still have some talent left in his tank?

[@ps-qi6jd]

Finally a Nemesis fan that isn't fucking delusional and doesn't blindly defend him. Thorin is right, Nemesis up to now hasn't done much professionally, but I do believe he's improving and if he decides to return to LEC, I believe he can get to be top 3 mid honestly.

[@snaggiz]

Nemesis really isn’t bad in any sort of way. But in terms of the premise of the video, I at least agree that he isn’t elite. He’s good, he could comfortably be a good LEC midlaner but that’s where it ends for me. I’d love for him to go on and prove me wrong.

[@slan0305]

This comment section literally proves thorins point btw, video is 40 minutes long, been up for like 20 mins already all these dislikes and butthurt nemesis /ls fans lmao

[@audunlorentzen6980]

I'm a genuine thorin fan, i watch all his league podcasts and most of his content, but i got to say he deserves the flame on this one, he goes unreasonably hard on nemesis and puts alot of blame on him for team issues. Predicting you will get flamed by "nemesis stans" does not make the bad feedback any less valid. Also the worst part to me is that nemesis can't even respond... No team likes players that give out inside drama, and if he does he potentially burns alot of bridges if he wants to play pro again.

[@ItsCronk]

@@audunlorentzen6980 Do you see normal athletes respond to sport journalists opinions? No. He doesn’t need to respond, and shouldn’t. His fans, according to these comments, are doing that work.

[@audunlorentzen6980]

@@ItsCronk while that is somewhat true, there is a big difference in traditional sports and esports when it comes to how community perception can effect teams actions. Listening to talkshows you can sometimes here players say they have been asked about certain "reddit views" in their dealings with teams. I think it's very likely that this video has negatively impacted how teams view Nemesis, as lot of the critisism in this video is about him as a teammate. Just as a sidenote, an example of how it can go bad was how Odoamne got screwed because he was rumored to already be in talks with a team so no team reached out to him. While it's not the same situation, rumors and personalities in the scene can have big impacts on players careers. That's why I think this video is so bad from thorin, not only is he factually incorrect on so many of his points, but he uses these points to draw conclusion that potentially screws nemesis

[@TealRain]

Thooorin VS LS Cultists, its going to be a banger

[@user-qt2we6mb6k]

League of legends keemstar vs weird boys

[@kemvaros5031]

The LS and Nemesis simps on the comments are losing their minds, someone call pest control!

[@Cloudmoder]

Do you plan to make a video which includes examples showing any of the points of criticism you have towards Nemesis besides just talking with the source being bro trust me?

[@EllieMidna]

Thank you!

[@xgh0sted7]

He cant bro he is literally play he cant analyse pro games and nemesis is just living in his head rent free the guy hasnt played in 7 months yet he is out here posting a 40 min video about him XD

[@Cloudmoder]

(btw I already know the answer is no since you aren't at all capable to do this since your knowledge on the game is negatable in any qualitative conversation)

[@imnevx]

Sir are you deaf? He literally gives you games and examples. Just cause he’s not doing VOD reviews doesn’t discredit the EXAMPLES he is saying.

[@bik7590]

He uses a lot of examples from coaches and players he knows in the scene without saying who it is to protect their reputation- the trustworthiness of these claims comes from Thorin's built up credibility as an esports journalist. We can assume that coaches and players think he is credible because they come on to his shows (summoning insight and the crack down most notably) and have good faith discussions with him about the game. Basically, would so many great coaches/minds in the game like Perkz, Nelson Sng, Dylan Falco, and Jatt come on to his shows if he was just spewing bullshit? Probably not- its more likely that he is accurate quoting what people he has talked to involved behind the scenes in FNC have told him.

[@xfrixor_2132]

I've grown to like Thorins content over the last months, but this is just onesided slander. He talks alot about inside stuff in MAD Lions and FNC that is either conjecture or "inside information" by staff/players that is obviously subjective/biased against Nemesis. Not saying Nemesis had no part in behind the scenes drama during the splits, it's framed as if Nemesis was the only reason anything went bad. He never really shared his own experiences, so this is just pointless venting.

[@akshatsaxena4137]

On what basis are you claiming that the inside info is obviously biased against Nemesis? The stuff he claimed about Rekkles for example turned out to be perfectly true when Jesiz confirmed it on the Crackdown.

[@exodion4173]

Thats the whole point. Nemesis is more than welcome to come out in the open n explain his side else ppl will use conjecture to draw conclusions. Id say its on him now.

[@xfrixor_2132]

@@akshatsaxena4137 When Bwipo for example talks about his issues with Nemesis, there is obviously alot of bias included. Maybe the wording "against Nemesis" is a bit misleading, but from Nemesis perspective it will sound different. The truth lies in the middle ofc, but Nemesis openly decided to not talk about it until a bit more time has passed.

[@xfrixor_2132]

@@exodion4173 It is perfectly fine to make claims about Nemesis during offseason discussions and stuff, like when Gilius or Bwipo were on the Crackdown. But Nemesis often said he does not want to dive deep into the internal FNC stuff yet and thinks the discussion is pointless. Yet Thorin feels the need to make a 40 minute rant solely about Nemesis out of absolutely nowhere? He is not even a proplayer anymore. It's literally just some personal issues he has with Nemesis that he uses to create some controversy. And his only source is "Yeah someone told me that, trust me". Thorin is capable of way more.

[@akshatsaxena4137]

@@xfrixor_2132 but why would Bwipo be inherently biased against Nemesis? Besides, Thorin mentions sources from his time at Mad Lions and also talking to coaches. Why would they be biased against Nemesis, I don't see any reason to it. They've coached dozens of players, it's not like they have it out for this one particular player.

[@Mandrake42069]

Nemesis: Doingb is a Bad midlaner Thorin: Well yes, but he ist a good player Nemesis: Well yes you are right. OK what are we talkin about again?

[@astrofp4691]

Can i say Nemesis?

[@homococo]

[@savrier]

So much respect, Thorin doesn't give a f about the fanboys xD

[@monedita666]

yeah, thorin is a nemesis fanboy, the obsession he has with him is insane, holy shit

[@brousex5123]

@@monedita666 ?

[@gilarlington4993]

@@monedita666 says the nemesis fanboys who go on someone else's YT to write comment and dislike without watching

[@gitinia]

@@monedita666 He barely talks about Nemesis. If you were to say that about Rekkles or TSM, ok he is constantly shitting on them but not about Nemesis. But it's ok. I don't expect you to know that cuz you don't watch his videos.

[@ilie5219]

Yeah wow incredible attitude like he has something to lose LOL are u brainwashed by this personality's that say everything that comes to their mind? Usually this kinda of people have something interesting to say Thorin doesn't tough

[@booperdee2]

i like this video not because i agree or disagree with Thorin, but that he's willing to be contentious with fans. Never give the audience all of what they want to hear, stay challenging.

[@crispybanana3198]

but his audience only wants controversy and that's the only thing he provides

[@lifenote1943]

yeah Hitler was pretty challenging IMO, lots of new different opinions.

[@MarioGomez-kj5bc]

oh my god u are so cringe

[@lucky4the4turtle]

GUYS, PAUSE THIS VID, DFM ARE UP AGAINST DK. Well Shit....

[@brain_tonic]

Banger game tbh

[@haximnida]

Steal living up to his name But against his team

[@SuperAwesomeRoboSpy]

I think the video was fair. Disagree with some of the in game analysis but the attitude issues seems consistent. The "oh I'm streaming now and it makes more money so idc lol" reeks hard of him being disappointed in how his pro career went and trying to justify to himself that he was good and doesn't need to prove his skill, but not truly believing it deep down

[@lifenote1943]

uh yeah he should totally join a bottom team so he can lose and have his stock as a player go down. It's not like he's a millionaire, wtf is he gonna do after his career ends? This is not only a career choice but also long term financial. Most pros retire really early, nemesis probably has 5 years left MAX, no point in spending 3 of them on EG or whatever making a piss poor salary, and then weak placings will make it harder for him to find a spot on a high level roster. But yeah it's all about passion and determination, let's not make any actual good long term decisions xD

[@lifenote1943]

@@valentinshtupalov9014 1. before taxes 2. I doubt bottom teams can put that kind of money up without someone else getting fucked 3. 250k for how long? 2 years? 3? and every time his contract is renewed he makes less. How can he sustain himself when he's 40 or 50? Does he have a pension? Yeah 250k is a lot of money assuming you get payed every year for the rest of your life. After career you have no qualifications, best you can do is coach or stream. These financial decisions have to be taken seriously.

[@ricius7087]

If Nemesis streaming career wasn't going really well right now would this even be a video?

[@dersyn9819]

No. Because this guy's entire career is literally just being a parasite off the success of people that are actually good at games or that know enough to offer a decent analysis.

[@M.L.official]

@@dersyn9819 you are so daft it is insane haha

[@Ochnun]

That's the only career he can have at this point lol and even that is only because hes Ls' little dog and yes man .

[@ayh4968]

Yes. He has mentioned this topic on Listen Loco and iirc Elitists United in the past

[@MarioGomez-kj5bc]

no it wouldnt

[@ThomasMueller999]

This is Doinb's third revenge (after outclassing Nemesis ingame and laughing his ass off at Nemesis last worlds performance). Never forget.

[@nguyentri3608]

If only LWX didn’t int (again), FPX would have been at MSI and nemesis/LS would be watching him on the stream

[@ThomasMueller999]

@@nguyentri3608 So true! That would've been enjoyable :D

[@nguyentri3608]

@@ThomasMueller999 I’m surprised LWX haven’t been kicked since his worlds performance 2 years ago. Just imagine what FPX would be like with Viper

[@nikitamarynich1794]

He was right when he said " U can start reading, you will have all the time in the World next split " and boy was he right.

[@kusanagi5418]

@@nguyentri3608 LWX had good performances this year but in the finals after g1 it seemed like his little sister started playing

[@thomasmilligan3502]

Be fair to Nemesis mate. Bwipo and Hyli were hard inting in season 10. Hyli pulled it back at worlds but it looked like he'd get the boot before that. Framing it like Nemesis had the best tools to work with is a bit disingenuous.

[@lifenote1943]

big true

[@mathieumercier7936]

Altough I agree Hylissang was getting caught off pos a lot after the lane, he and Rekkles did an awesome job in lane and I also agree Bwipo didn't have a great perf (still wasn't a dead weight) at worlds, that Velkoz Nemesis pulled out was embarrassing. Even the itemization was wrong (rush hextech and shadows into void staff on a champ that deals mini 30% true damage in a team fight and needs a lot of AP).

[@thomasmilligan3502]

@@mathieumercier7936 Agree with everything you said. Felt like Nemesis let Fnatic down at worlds. Although Thorin was being uncharacteristically unfair to him here I feel.

[@lifenote1943]

@@mathieumercier7936 yeah but if you looked at hyli, bwipo and selfmade's plays with that same magnifying glass you could also right a paragraph on where they went wrong. I don't like the way this is framed

[@SpicebombEx]

From selfmade 's pet to LS 's pet, nice transfer. Watch the stream day 3 MSI, when LS said GP is still useful here in DWG VS DFM game. All those pets didn't dare to speak one word against him even tho their expression clearly disagree.

[@3MAR443]

I wish he reformed and come back to prove us wrong (with SK or XL), and not end up as same as Freeze

[@SpicebombEx]

@@3MAR443 Youngbuck never like him because of his attitude so XL out of question.

[@waaghghazghkull6362]

Turns out your correct again.

[@brousex5123]

Reading the comment section/like ratio unironically proves Thorin's whole point about the fanboys... not even arguing logically and disliking before watching hahahahha

[@ilie5219]

What can u argue? Thorin doesn't know shit about anything he talked in the video as 99% of legue community. At least he could try to be a likeable immage but he isn't so does this dude provide something? Bad information slurs and negativity?

[@brousex5123]

@@ilie5219 He's not trying to be likable, he's telling you his opinions based on his own logic. No point arguing that 'he's negative' etc, just attack his points...

[@ilie5219]

@@brousex5123 yeah but how do people understand? Do u think someone rememberes what happened last year against g2? He just assumed incorrectly what happened and talked to his viewers without even making them understand.

[@LeonValenti]

Thorin not only gives us the gift of a video, but also the pure salt in the comments. Thank you, Thorin.

[@Bulldawzer]

The classic "Who hurt you?" comments. Stay beta, brothers.

[@whoreallycaresaboutnames7837]

thats the only "who hurt you" comment I have read here and im scrolling and reading comments for half an hour already lol. Stay low IQ, brother.

[@Bulldawzer]

@@whoreallycaresaboutnames7837 Original comments were quite close to those on Twitter. Honestly, I can't find most of them while scrolling either anymore. Keep scrolling, brother.

[@MarioGomez-kj5bc]

stay pathetic and out of touch from reality, shitter

[@tgrabbit8940]

Both LS and Nemesis have such insufferable personalities. Of course his former teammates got tired of his shit.

[@faker3033]

i dislike nemisis, he is so cocky, i mean its all fun but it seems that he thinks he is above faker

[@rangered_64]

@@faker3033 I wouldn't really go that far, but he does act like that, he sort of sees only ONE way to play the game instead of trying to be flexible with other picks that are flexes in the team.

[@fodksneifje7721]

he literally said in one of his last streams playing against SN Angel how he can't beat him ever cuz he's just a better mid laner, so i don't see how nemesis thinks he's better than faker or cocky

[@rangered_64]

@@fodksneifje7721 I think it's just the way he plays, but like every other plays, no matter the situation, will be a coin flip

[@TheRagingWade]

This might be a waste of time for a KZbin comment, considering making a video response (RIP that superior old KZbin system) but who knows if I ever will. Just wanted to say, great video, despite the divisiveness. I understand why people get so defensive about their players/streamers, anyways here goes nothing: I don't disagree at all that there were opportunities where Nemesis was supposed to step up and instead his playstyle just sort of left him holding the bag while his team fell apart around him. However, to pretend Fnatic's implosion was because of Nemesis seems unfair. Bwipo hard-inted that final where you said he was doing fine, getting first blooded and clapped by Wunder solo every game on picks like Zac and Ornn. I distinctly recall in S8 looking into a mic check and Nemesis was commanding the voice comms when everyone on team was insisting on peeling off. He was playing Veigar, don't recall off the top of my head against who, and he was calling the shots fluidly in the game and carried his team to a win. A worse version of the team than the Selfmade iteration, as Broxah was more of a PvE 'along for the ride' player at this point. As an individual who fills and has varying levels of proficiency in each role, but comprehensive knowledge of what the role's are INTENDED to do, there were so many situations where he was given chickenshit and he gets flamed for not turning it into chicken salad. Bwipo and Hyli have insane tendencies inclined towards punishing the enemy and pushing your advantages. In Bwipo's case, to transition counterpick lane-advantages into gold leads by tp/roams to bot mostly. It's something Huni got a lot of praise for when he was on Clutch Gaming and they had their run to worlds. The level 3-4 teleport to dive bottom set up the entire transition to lane-swap up at 8 minutes for the herald. Bwipo commits to these plays, and sometimes the decision making is off and Nemesis/Rekkles wind up getting flamed for not hard committing on a losing decision. Other times, they have one player ahead with 4 behind, in a horrible draft, then just because he can't 1v9 it's indicative of his lack of quality? Buttress the statement with the caveat that he's good, just not elite, and it feels like somewhat of an unnecessary backhand to the guy. I have a source who gave me this bit of information that confirms my suspicions, "and that's true, but did you ever question what the person saying it did leading up to that event?" After all, Bwipo being 0-3 at 8 minutes and your winning lane with draft priority is now being 4-man'd with a rift herald, being able to pick up a kill here or there and survive teamfights doesn't mean that his play hasn't directly impacted Nemesis' game. Look at what TSM did, they in S5-S6 were really good about controlling blue-side blue buff when they were on red side. In Jensen's first game it made the Kog'maw he was playing unplayable until 30 minutes when he finally got a buff. They refined that focus and Hauntzer on Nautilus/Maokai would just disappear from his lane and be flank ganking mid after they just 3-quartered your jungle. Jensen surviving or even winning was great, but there's things he DIDN'T DO to stay in that game that could've mitigated some of the stress and pressure they were under. It was actually, in my opinion, one of Jensen's most defining moments as a player having to evolve out of that shell. It took him 3 years, and having to try and keep Blaber on a leash to truly evolve outside of that lane-tyrant status into a full map threat. Not that he wasn't before, it simply elevated his game. If there wasn't conflict between Rekkles/Selfmade and Bwipo/Selfmade I believe Nemesis would've developed and become a top 3 mid laner in the League, comparable to Larssen but IMO with less random deaths in his system. That doesn't mean I don't take exception with much of how Nemesis conducts himself on stream pertaining to his LEC career and terms for further involvement; because I absolutely take exception with some of the philosophy and influence he entrenches himself in that seems to be more self-destructive than self-improvement. Definitely don't jive with his defeatist, negative attitude, but I think he's underrated in-game. Funny as this unfolds, because the Magic: The Gathering approach definitely influences so much of how we approach games, and it defines in many instances a player's archetype. I always played Green decks, and I don't think it's a coincidence in LoL I'm mostly a tank/engage/resolve tree player.

[@nathanaelsallhageriksson1719]

I think Nemesis is super underrated overall. But that doesn't mean he's better than Caps or anything. But everyone seems to have compared him to caps, and now, with his streaming success, people see how absolutetly insane he is in soloq, and we have his fans overrating him, and others underrating him. He is really good, but not the best by any means.

[@hungerxhunger2548]

Wow people just dislike anything it seems.

[@lifenote1943]

yeah he's being completely disrespectful, and constantly insulting the man. This has gone beyond just talking and analysing in game plays or decisions. He's attacking his personality, character, bringing up negative opinions that other people had of him behind closed doors (very unprofessional btw). And singling him out as the reason why Fnatic didn't win worlds, in a set where hyli and bwipo kept running it down. This is clearly a personal vendetta and if you can't see that, and you're above the age of 18, then I don't know what to tell you

[@mathieumercier7936]

@@lifenote1943 He made compliments to Nemesis, so no, he ain't "constantly insulting the man". It ain't a "vendetta" since Nemesis did nothing to Thorin. There's nothing to avenge. And yes, Thorin criticizes Nemesis' shitty personality. The guy is arrogant (says only top teams deserve him, refuses to listen to others, thinks he knows it all), and he can't deliver when it matters the most. Even Doublelift learned his lessons back in the days. As for being disrespectful, I agree I find Thorin's style to be aggressive and I understand sensitive people may not like it. But if you listen to the end of the video, he just wants nothing more than a comeback from Nemesis.

[@ItsCronk]

@@lifenote1943 What insults?

[@miradiesahiti1919]

LS & Nemesis watched this in stream so of course their cult-like fan base will dislike it.

[@lifenote1943]

@@mathieumercier7936 yeah and you're the personality judge? and that last sentence? those are like the parents that beat their kids because they "want them to be better" or something.

[@v3rmilli0nair3]

I don't understand all the dislikes on this video. Thorin was 100% towards Nemesis and even gave Nemesis credit where credit was due. Sure, he bantered a ton but Thorin banters everyone. There was nothing Thorin said about Nemesis here that was disrespectful or unjustified. So why all the dislikes? Did people even watch the video? Lmfao XD

[@IBIGBEATzZIIHD]

He just makes a bunch of random claims based on "insider information". Also made a bunch of false claims, such as the FNC vs G2 2020 Spring Split Final being Nemesis's fault or him and LS not elaborating on doingb critizism in 2019/2020. Nemesis disputes that he got micro managed by Selfmade when they played in Mad Lions, as Thorin claims, but instead says that next to another player he was the de-facto team leader on Mad Lions. I feel like this Thorin video is a p bad take tbh. Seems like he is chasing the views/interactions with this one. It's a also a weird time to release this one, since Nemesis hasn't been playing pro for quite a while. The only realistic reason for this video coming out now is that Nemesis has started to become a very popular streamer recently. So public interest is high and a controversial video is almost guaranteed to get high interaction.

[@shupakiko]

Dude you're absolutely right. That's why we call those people Cultists. Facts and logic don't matter for determining their behaviour, they operate on faith and camps, just like religious ppl. They will defend their camp regardless of logic and attack their opposition the same way out of pure tribalism. In a sense they're childs and NPCs as Thorin said. FNC fans, TSM fans, ... Zach snyder fans ? xD same deal. I like Thorin, LS and Nemesis as individuals (because there is no camp in fact guys) so i hope Nemesis himself will put his ego aside for an hour, watch this video and reflect on his mistakes in order to grow. There are some hard pills to swallow, sure, but you're guaranteed to come out stronger if you take the important points in. Of course there's some approximation here and there from Thorin, but it's very consistent overall. Everyone should have a Thorin spanking like that, telling you every bad thing they think about you with no BS, in order to grow. That's called harsh love bb. It's hard but it's what's best for you.

[@v3rmilli0nair3]

@@IBIGBEATzZIIHD I don't agree with everything Thorin said, but I also do not think that Thorin is making this video in bad faith, which is why I think its dumb this video got so many dislikes. Thorin is having an honest discussion here and he even explains at the start of the video that that he is making this video because he gets asked questions about his opinion about Nemesis all the time so of course it is easier to just reference a single video rather than fragments from a dozen talk shows. You say that the "only realistic reason for this video coming out now is that Nemesis has started to become a very popular streamer so interest is high", and I TBH agree with that statement to an extent, but I don't see that as a cynical thing in the way in which you seem to be implying. If interest in Nemesis is high right now, then it stands to reason that Thorin is being asked about his opinion on Nemesis a lot lately, which just feeds into the idea of Thorin making just one video to collect all of his thoughts. Again, I would understand disliking this video if Thorin had made this video in bad faith or was intentionally spreading misinformation about Nemesis, but being wrong about one or two facts is not the same as outright lying about someone out of spite. Thorin was keeping it real based on his own knowledge and his world view. People are more than welcome to have a difference of opinion and Nemesis, LS, and others are fully in their right to respond to this video and I think that Thorin would welcome the debate (I'm basing that last assumption on how he disagreed with IWD for example on Bjergsen's career - they disagreed heavily, but he and IWD still had a really healthy and productive discussion on the topic).

[@adriavalls2402]

tldr. i think the G2 finals is a very bad example of nemesis not playing well. Uhh that is bad take if i've seen one. In the G2 series perkz played azir and did well and then neme playes azir and did bad. Have anyone considered what champions were surrounding those azirs? Bc the main take i got from that series was a Massive draft diff all games and everyone got fucked, maybe if the drafts were kinda balanced and neme shat the bed and ran it down i'd give you that, but damn those games were as much neme fault as it was everyone else (especially whoever drafted in those games).

[@medsaidmhb8101]

LS's cult ain't gonna like this , I don't agree with all of it but he had some interesting takes ngl

[@Grav1ty2735]

Nemesis doesnt coinflip with Bwipo selfmade and hylisang? He isn't elite mid. Rekkles doesnt coinflip with Bwipo selfmade and hylisang? Best adc in EU

[@chaosmagician1865]

Not sure if i misunderstand your point. Rekkles is undeniably elite. Nemesis not inting doesn't really put him in the same category as Rekkles.

[@jamescalder5115]

Rekkles was elite before those guys were on the team... and before 2019. Nemesis was not elite - is he better than a lot of kids in the LEC: Yes. Is he an elite mid on the level of Chovy, Caps, etc: No and it has nothing to do with him not coinflipping with Bwipo, Selfmade and Hylissang.

[@gilarlington4993]

Nemesis lost Lane at worlds every single time

[@Spinexus]

Have you been watching the video? He is calling out Nemesis AND Rekkles for being too passive. Current G2 pretty much confirms this even more.

[@davidschaffer9914]

@@Spinexus the dude hates Rekkles and nemesis. He’s a man child on Twitter and his videos.

[@zombie92110]

Wait Nemesis had fanboys? What? I mean he is a pretty good player. But to imagine that someone that random in term of charisma witj such a little carrier (2 years in LEC) and so little accomplishment (0 actually) has fanboys? I agree that thorin went a bit to harsh on him but seeing some people defending him like he was their dad.

[@whoreallycaresaboutnames7837]

Wait Thorin had fanboys? What? I mean he is a pretty bad player. But to imagine that someone that random in terms of charisma with such little carrier (not even a LEC player) and so little accomplishment (0 actually) has fanboys? I agree that nemesis went a bit to harsh on him but seeing some people defending him like he was their dad.

[@TimoCruz177]

its the LS effect, I didn't knew Nemesis was a thing before he joined the cult of LS

[@kazeneko1696]

I saw this man criticize one of my favorite players and I agree with him

[@ilie5219]

What does it even mean LOL, just because of that do u think u understand something about pro play league and FNC issues ? it seems like even thorin doesn't understand it and he even can't because he wasn't there...

[@lifenote1943]

Don't know how you can agree with plain disrespect, and underhanded shit but alright

[@akosboth830]

not a bad video for a plat player

[@fillphd]

try silver

[@ThomasMueller999]

That has to be a terribly flawed argument. We should learn from other sports that have been around for much longer. If you take a look at soccer / football, you'll quickly discover that not all experts, trainers, or coaches have been elite level players themselves. They might have valuable feedback regardless, though.

[@akosboth830]

@@ThomasMueller999 it's the same kind of argument thorin came up with in this video

[@jiggy1858]

this guys ego is off the charts

[@rupok90]

Getting rid of Nemesis was the best decision that FNC made in their entire organizational history. As time goes by, we just realize how wrong he was.

[@TheRealGuSty]

Going great 👍

[@datura2883]

i said one day in nemesis' stream : ''Why does thus guy think that he knows legit EVERYTHIN?G" and 50 fanboys just spammed me : ''Because he does'', from that you can tell what kind of mindset they have..

[@lifenote1943]

yeah because commenting something like that in twitch chat would totally get you a well written essay on why people disagree with you

[@erberlon]

go to any chat of any major streamer and you will get the same answer. Twitch chat is cancer

[@coomer1451]

You could type that even on sanchovies chat and you would get the same response

[@eujox]

The lights pretty dim in here

[@Lilroundabout]

Holy moly 40 minutes...I thought I was down bad but I'm not even close to where you are...

[@xgh0sted7]

Nemesis living rent free .. dude hasnt played in 7 months yet this old man sits there for 40 mins flaming him with the only source being (trust me bro)

[@bik7590]

@@xgh0sted7 He has put in the work to prove himself to be trustworthy- would Perkz, Jatt, LS, and so many other great minds of the game come on to his shows and continue to work with him if he just spewed bullshit and made up what people behind the scenes told him? Probably not. Its similar to how very often investigative journalists release articles in which all evidence is from sources kept anonymous, and so their credibility as journalists that they build up over years is what causes us to trust them.

[@AadetTube]

@@xgh0sted7 Nemesis literally lives with LS, who is friends with Thorin. It’s just criticism, he doesn’t hate the guy lol.

[@AlexandrosXY]

@@AadetTube criticism is not bad but everything what he is saying he either just pulled it out of his arse or its wrong

[@spartanvinc]

@@xgh0sted7 are you in love with Nemesis or something? Never seen somebody simp this hard. Keep living in delusion xD

[@Sam-kh5pb]

video made just to raise clout completly garbage takes.

[@damiand288]

Peaple from LS stream comming and just disliking the video LUL

[@catgames2290]

Imagine them screaming Noo lemon is good he is at geng now XD Honestly i respect ls and nemesis opinions about the game but as a person they are shit

[@Patato12341]

@@catgames2290 yep a bronze player commenting on a pro player gotta love it and this comment section too

[@isaac15752]

@@Patato12341 yeah man a plat player comenting on world champions, gotta love it, that argument is nule, knowledge does not equate to mechanics, if ppl followed that mentality LS would never be someone since he gets hard stuck plat every season after pre season or early season

[@vitvasak8334]

Good thing Fnatic play way better now without Nemesis so he clearly was the problem and Good thing Thorin is so good at League that he can understand the game and evaluate jungle-mid synergy Good thing Thorin's opinions is like watching a YT channels posting 30 sec clips about players commenting about other players without context... wait, this one is true

[@jleif7736]

All of your takes are garbage. Lets be real and not delusional. The reason FNC isn't a good team now is because of Rekkles being gone, and Hyli and Bwipo. Now lets rewind to when Nemesis was on the team. Lets REALLY not be delusional and act like all of FNC success was solely because of nemesis. If anything Nemesis costed them games more than he won them games. Stop being a fanboy bro. Nemesis is open to criticism. Its life, you'll be okay my friend. The dude literally said DoinB was the worst mid laner at worlds, yet Nemesis was actually worse than DoinB and what do ya know DoinB went to win Worlds, while Nemesis went and had arguably the worst season of his career. But go on, you know so much.

[@breathebot3549]

Yeah, when the mid laner known for making jungler better doesn't work that well, maybe Nemesis wasn't the only issue

[@vitvasak8334]

@@jleif7736 what part of my comment is saying that FNC was successful BECAUSE of Nemesis? More delusional is saying that FNC lost finals vs G2 because of him. DoinB comments were also explained and given more context even tho Thorin says the opposite. I’m trying to be objective watching this video, but it’s hard to find something more than just flame

[@ChrisPost.]

I like Nemesis tremendously, but from the complete outside a lot of the things seem to make sense why he hasn't lived up to potential.

[@Sam-kh5pb]

that s the magic about thorin he crafts his bullshit so nicely you think its true

[@Sam-kh5pb]

nemesis and ls watched a bit of the video on stream u should check it out

[@Gurpreet-sv5zg]

@@Sam-kh5pb Seen enough with the tier list and Kindred Z tier. Don't want my brain to get microwaved any longer.

[@Sam-kh5pb]

@@Gurpreet-sv5zg ?

[@hampustornros]

@@Sam-kh5pb They watched half of it on stream, 0 actual counterpoints, called it a waste of time and stopped watching it. Was not a good look at all.

[@ShawnBlaque]

This guy is Selfmade's pet, damn lmao I thought it was bad enough being LS' pet

[@nikitamarynich1794]

Sadly most of his takes are recycled from LS, which is kinda sad because i'm sure he knows a lot about the game to have his own opinion like Crownshot, who often disagrees with LS and doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a parrot.

[@houcineaka9289]

Holy shit u coudnt agree more and by the way the guy really think he's the number 1 midlaner in LEC if you ask he will say that he's even better than caps he coudnt me less delusional

[@xMotivationFix]

Damn, what did he do to open the flood gates xD

[@AnasAnas-bz2cy]

That interview of nemesis with invenglobal triggered all of that, Nemesis just fucked his career with that interview

[@MrMaiaBang]

@@AnasAnas-bz2cy I couldnt find anything related to an invenglobal interview with nemesis, could you provide a link or a title for the interview? Thanks in advance.

[@AnasAnas-bz2cy]

@@MrMaiaBang www.invenglobal.com/articles/13925/geng-nemesis-i-dont-want-to-go-back-to-pro-play-if-it-means-im-going-to-join-a-bottom-tier-team That's the thing that provoked a lot of people ;) Read everything it's interesting and i will give you a time lap on twitch of Ls and nemesis reaction to thorin video too

[@AnasAnas-bz2cy]

@@MrMaiaBang go the Ls channel on twitch and watch the last video recorded of DK vs DFM and start from 3 hours 12 minutes 50 seconds to the rest of the video it's not too long, it shows their reaction to thorin's video about nemesis🙂

[@MrMaiaBang]

@@AnasAnas-bz2cy thank you!

[@dmkt7767]

Great video. I loved that part of his thesis on a proffesional player , from a non-pro's point of view, is based on backhanded behind the scenes gossip and isolated performances in games while completely ignoring his teamates performance (TES FNC GAME 3, G2 vs FNC GAME 2 ). So happy to see fnc resolve their team issues after released from this mediocre player and truly thrive. Thank you thorin glad to see a journalist that cares about context in esports, Cheers!

[@TheMisterrasco]

I really liked this video I was a Nemesis fan in the beginning I Defended him once on Elitist On the Line and I still stand behind that topic. I still find it strange he never did any kind of Interviews even not with Sjokz .

[@sdingray]

I think it's the Fnatic effect, because Fnatic traditionally has always produced the best/good mids, from xPeke, to Febiven, to Caps, and Nemesis/Nisqy. It's always hard to say that Fnatic mids are bad until we inspect them in retrospect

[@Isaxus12]

>I still find it strange he never did any kind of Interviews even not with Sjokz Not really rocket science, he's evidently very introverted

[@animebhopper]

@@Isaxus12 Before he started streaming he was rly shy

[@mrorzujohn]

You say that u always "consider context" but where is that context when u analyzing g2 vs fnc finals??? You didn't mention anything from the game other than the champ Azir and flame Nemesis when he couldn't 1v9 in game 3 with Azir... Why are u not discussing what champs he is up against, why u not talking about how his top is non existent the entire match, why are we ignoring G2 comp and consider the context when u talking about 1 single champion.

[@Bogoos21]

so i gues they only played 1 game in finals and he didnt get giga stomped in game 1 and 2

[@spartanvinc]

Because he doesnt want to spend 5 minutes on it? He shortly mentioned it and said what happened, which was a massive mid gap vs Perkz.

[@ND-er1bo]

because he is silver and doesnt understand the game

[@thecracker1082]

And as usual, Thorin got us covered. Knows everything like always and then sends it to his brave followers who are willing to spread the good all around the world. We should all be thankful, that there are still saints in the world, who have the courage to pour out their hearts on the sitting of Council of Saints called The Crack Down and deliver secret information no one even them didn't know. The most admirable thing about Thorin is that he has never been seduced by the thought of being oblivious of evil in the universe like most people are or even turning to The dark side. The side full of violence and hatred. The side controlled by dark forces of vicious human beings like Nemesis or even the devil himself Rekkles.

[@terribleplayer2526]

People dislike this before it even starts and the way they see this is, because they think Selfmade is the reason why Fnatic flopped when he's easily the best Jungler in EU and he's proven himself against world class junglers when Nemesis was complaining about how other pros played the laning phase and he went 120 CS behind on Galio who literally one shots waves at that patch. Actually laughable how fan mobs do nothing but worship people because that's all they can do in their empty lives.

[@bahoun]

yea and i did too

[@ikow87]

Out of curiosity how are fans of Thorin any different?

[@luminous3558]

FNC flopped because Hylli and Bwipo were running it and the team as a whole couldn't compromise on playing scaling or aggro. Its almost like FNC fans only remember that TES series and nothing else.

[@terribleplayer2526]

@@luminous3558 Nemesis was able to match other A tier midlaners in LEC only in Sprint split and that's it, lol. The problem in fnatic is an internal problem that to this day it still wasn't solved but Nemesis ruined it for himself, there are many reasons for why FNC flopped but for sure 100% if nemesis would stop sucking LS so much and start playing prio midlaners like renekton and so on they could of won because Selfmade is more than capable to 1v9 in a carry jungle meta.

[@terribleplayer2526]

@@ikow87 Not really most fanbases have toxic people that's just how things are, but when this was uploaded 20 minutes in it already got a negative like ration because LS saw it on stream and they decided to mass dislike it without even watching it, the more popular and mainstream you are the more likely you are to have these terrible fans.

[@MegaAlexWar]

It reminds me of a question from an interviewer to Richard Feinman (famous American physicist): " Why do magnets repel from each other? " There is an interesting video on youtube where he brings a bright speech why he can't answer this for the first glance simple question even though he is a nobel laureate. Link to the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4CTo2xpZbihlZo, so ... So the analogy is that Thorin is just like that interviewer there, he needs to learn so much in order to try and understand basic things because there are so much deep and complex things happening around. That being said this video for me is just an opinion of a man who can't possibly figure out what really is happening even if he tries his best, but until he dedicates thousands of hours to a game, neither he or anyone would get a point how in reality things should be. That's just not his level of knowledge at a game to give his thoughts as a facts, because they don't differ from me, or random player at normal game at league of legends.

[@marioh.3014]

I've had tough battles against Nemesis fanboys in the Fnatic subreddit. Sometimes I feel ashamed for my fellow fnatic fans.

[@rangered_64]

They're not fans, so don't give them any attention

[@MrTrauster]

Basically it's a 41 minutes disstrack

[@spartanvinc]

Nemesis is a top tier midlaner but an average pro league of legends player.

[@magnusflodberg6162]

Nemesis putting the highest value in winning lane/having good CS, meanwhile losing almost every lane he is in, except when he was on Lucian...OK... xD

[@_Munchboy_]

Hope this comes out coherent: Man "Nemesis bad, cuz he no communicate wit his jngler the GOD CARRY SELFMADE" "If he was as good as he says, he would play in Schalke and prove himself" I thought you would have heard a point being brought up by LS that communication is only needed when skill/knowledge is missing in the sense that a jungler should know what to do with a certain lane-state without the laner telling him what to do. This has also been backed up by Doublelift. The coms being blamed is kind of a proof Selfmade has no idea what to do outside the jungle and relies on others to push him into decisions. He had and "attitude" because he can back up his opinions, while the old guard have a certain playstyle that has been engrained into their heads and they think this is the only way to play and it cannot change. Certain pros being called GOATS while others are being given respect in the negative range in very unprofessional. By your logic, you should flame Nisqy because they are still not winning aka It was not Nemesis' fault. LEC 2021 shows that Selfmades' "solo carry mentality" is not the winning one that was pushing FNC, while Bwipo has clearly taken the reigns. Saying "Given the resources" which are... what? A PC and your team. Coaches have been proven to have next to no power in a majority of the teams, only being there to fill a spot because every team has to have one. Improvement comes naturally and not from money being shoved at you. And you really had to make fun of Nemesis' reaction to being called underrated by Rekless, him being one of the most elite players in the history of LoL. Imagine the feelings a person experiences being praised by someone they look up, who motivated them to do what they do. I think him being (at the time of writing this comment) 500LP GM in Korea proves (more than being in Schalke wtf...) that he has the skill and knowledge to be at the top. And yes, you are right. Like you, teams are scared of picking him up because of his "attitude" which in turn means we could possibly never see Nemesis's best pro play. It shows what slander can do to ones career. Nemesis giving off the "idc" vibe often is, ofc, not helping him, but imo it's just him not liking being very outspoken. You can see that in most of his videos (English not being his first leads to some instances of misunderstanding).

[@hayashi.]

nemesis was kind of salty on LS' stream when they were watching this. think you might've struck a nerve... idk tho

[@snaggiz]

Of course it did. Now, I don’t think Nemesis is an elite mid laner either, but I think Thorin was being a bit harsh here.

[@MarioGomez-kj5bc]

yeah obviously are u dumb or what? thats how humans work

[@AlexandrosXY]

13:40 you are just wrong, how can bwipo be the best toplaner that split when he got solo killed in both zac and ornn matchups that finals?

[@uhhhnicenicenice1696]

delete ^

[@zhongooi7210]

@MasterSwagKing Entertainment It refutes the point he is the best toplaner since the best wouldn't have died

[@AlexandrosXY]

@@zhongooi7210 how can someone be the best player in the region if they cannot play lane after lvl 3 because they massively fuck up a trade so the lane is just over? its legit unplayable just go rewatrch that finals and bwipo cannot lane after lvl 3 in both side of the match ups

[@spartanvinc]

Oh so having a bad finals means that he wasnt the best top laner all split?

[@sketch3744]

@@zhongooi7210 faulty logic. One shitty performance doesn't discredit the play over the entire split. It'd be like saying "faker isn't the greatest lol play ever" and pointing to a clip of him dying as a reason why, then saying "If he was the greatest ever he wouldn't have died that one time".

[@georgitrichkov1640]

Thorin went out of his way to give him praise for the good things, I even felt at times if he was overpraising him. What a cool storyline it would be if Nemesis shows up to play and improves. Sadly, basic psychological training tells me that this requires massive going out of the comfort zone and very few people have that kind of drive. Looks like a player who would excel at individual sports.

[@frankopanklaric]

So this is the power of the fanatic fanbase...

[@AnasAnas-bz2cy]

Nemesis and Ls fans down voted the video, fnatic fans hate nemesis the most trust me

[@adriavalls2402]

Watchin further, you said that he has to sometimes take control and say i'm the carry and make his teammates follow him, and right after you say that he is too stubborn on his way to play. So? if he really thinks he can win playing a certain way he should just concede that and instad do what his teammates want (insert some clip of hylissang inting), but then he should take the reigns and be more vocal, but then he is too stubborn, so wich is it?

[@Eva_xoxo]

this guy also said rekkles was overrated or like 5 years, and said tabz and forgiven were better, lol

[@lifenote1943]

ooof xD

[@lostn65]

what Doinb lacks he makes up for in that he is ten times the player Nemesis will ever be. Shit-talking someone after they just owned you is classless, and that's how Nemesis can be summed up in a nutshell. It is the qualities and intangibles of Doinb that enabled him to lead his team to the holy grail in LOL, not his right clicking skills. His awareness of the map and ability to spot opportunities more than makes up for his perceived deficiencies in lane. Nemesis lacks that stuff. And you can't learn that stuff. You either have it or you don't. Nemesis is not a leader, he is a follower. If you listen to his comms, he is always asking for permission to do things "Can we fight? Can we fight?". A leader can recognize the situation they are in, know the strengths and limitations of his players and identify the correct play, without needing to consult his team and hope someone with initiative will tell him what to do. What Nemesis fails to understand when he calls people "the worst mid laner in the tournament" (an exact quote -- apologists should stop trying to put words in his mouth to defend him, he said exactly what he meant) is that being a winner takes more than right clicking skills. It takes qualities he doesn't have. In spite of believing Doinb is a poor laner, if you look at his CS he out CS'd Nemesis quite handily even though Nemesis was twice given his permabanned pocket pick that everyone else feared. He got neutralized hard even though he had his best pick. That's the stuff of a good mid laner.

[@BogdanLFX]

And the whole point of this video is...? I agree he wasnt the best midlaner fnc had but he clearly doesn't deserve all this hate. He did fine in FNC holding back his teammates from inting and was a good voice in fnc (smt which fnc lacks rn) . Also some of the fans expected him to be the new Caps and bcs he didnt manage to get on his level everyone started comparing them and eventually some of them started hating on him. Also it would be nice to see some sources for all of this info instead of the "trust me bro ik what im saying". And the fact that this guy actually made a 40 min video hating on him immediately after Nemesis started to grow in popularity says a lot about what kind of person Thorin is. He is not "brave enough to face the fanboys", he is just pissed that a guy he doesnt like has succes.

[@j.vdubois5074]

"I agree he wasnt the best midlaner fnc had but he clearly doesn't deserve all this hate" What hate? Thorin literally said that Nemesis is part of the Humanoid/Abedagge/Larssen crop of mid talent from few years back. And that he is at the bottom of that group. A skilled player but not elite and definitely not on the level of elite players like Perkz or Caps. Then Thorin goes on and says that large part of the issue is Nemesis's attitude and ego as attested by his former teammates on stream and even more examples in offline talks. Nemesis was not wronged and played the style and level of "poor mans Power of Evil". If he changes his attitude he may be a good player but it is unlikely given his ego and the fact that his biggest nemesis is in the mirror. Where exactly is the hate? Which part is inaccurate? I actually think that Thorin is correct to large extent. We had a talented and skilled midlaner in EU whose ego and misplaced self-perception basically drove him out of the scene into streaming. Now there is nothing wrong with streaming but we should acknowledge the true legacy of Nemesis and his pro-play in those two years as opposed to this weird view LS fans have of Nemesis being this reincarnation of Jesus when it comes to being wronged.

[@MrDzala]

I am sorry but from the journalist's perspective, you cannot just name your sources for private conversations if the person doesn't want it to be known. Ever heard of trade rumors? Do you ever see who starts them in the report?

[@m.willing7734]

So this video begins with thorin saying that a whole group of people have a worthless opinion, well I personally see this as quite problematic in terms of equality.

[@lerooyjenkins7763]

He didn't say that their opinion is worthless, he said that they have no arguments to support it besides telling him that he hates nemesis or rekkles personally

[@m.willing7734]

@@lerooyjenkins7763 well my bad, he didnt say worthless but rather "with out any value to the argument", but the problem is still the same

[@chrism8340]

TDLR of video: Is a good player Mechanically but attitude of "know it all" holds him back & he could be way better.

[@ssfrost1337]

Isnt that the same thing Bwipo said in now deleted podcast?

[@jxswu3224]

Tf why does this goldmine have 2.2k dislikes

[@rangered_64]

"Fans" be like that..

[@puppetmaster8514]

Hey Thorin I just wanna say, mad respect for having the balls to make a video like this. I don't think many would, but I would respect you a lot more if you actually took some of the criticism from people and acknowledged *where* you might have been wrong. I think you had a lot of good points but maybe your personal bias makes it seem like Neme was much worse than he actually was. He definitely wasn't perkz or caps level, could he have got there? Maybe, was he when he was let go? No definitely not. Overall, he made it to a lot of finals with fanatic and worlds quite a bit. At the end of his career his achievements alone should have net him a high tier midlaner in the LEC.

[@lifenote1943]

mad respect for insulting someone online for 40 minutes, not analysing the game, but critiquing someone's personality or who they are is disgusting. Keep it professional

[@StonyHigh]

mad respect for roasting a player when he is starting to get more and more viewers on twitch, not when he was actually playing ;););)

[@silvafangtv]

@@lifenote1943 tell me a sport where personality and attitude is a taboo discussion

[@lifenote1943]

@@silvafangtv it's not taboo just unprofessional and sometimes fucked up like in this case. I think it's a lot better to focus on the player as a player, not as a human. I don't think in football commentaries they go "x coach told me this about ronaldo behind closed doors", or X player isn't trying, or bringing up past dramas. There's a reason why you don't see a lot of that on TV.

[@silvafangtv]

@@lifenote1943 I mean I have seen it. Them as a person affects their play. Micahel Jordan is a prime example of this so yes it is relevant

[@henrikhornke4176]

My problem with all this critique to nemesis is that at least for me he legit played weakside mid. If you have a Team with rekkles and hyli bot you play for them understandable. Problem then bwipo cant really play weakside he's always playing super aggressiv and of course he's really good and smart but he also ints a lot tbh😅. So someome has to sacrafice and it was nemesis who legit played weakside midlane😂. And i will never get what Thorin has against rekkles. Yes he was a kda player way back but the last 2 seasons he was/is by far the best ad in the League and he just gets better which is crazy. He hard carried in the spring split and legit 1v9 games. Cause caps didnt perform in spring as well as he could, jankos and wunder didnt play good aswell for most Part of the split. I remember rekkles on jhin and senna in the early and mid parts of the split dragging g2 to victorys.

[@nikitamarynich1794]

What do you mean Bwipo can't play weakside? He literally teleported bot every game to give Rekkles a lead and sacrificed his own lane to play through Rekkles.

[@Bogoos21]

What the fuck even is weakside midlane ? is that some new concept on LS stream ? First time iv ever heard about weakside midlaner in my life rofl top or botom lane yep sure but midlane is just XD

[@haximnida]

@@Bogoos21 if weakside midlane is already surprising then you wont believe... ...Weakside jungle

[@Bogoos21]

@@haximnida what side of the map is weak side mid ? rofl

[@Gurpreet-sv5zg]

@@haximnida Never heard of weak side mid or jungle. I think the word you're looking for is supportive mid and jungler like Fly for Afreeca would be a supportive mid. Weak side mid and jungle? Yea whoever thought of that is probably a snake oil salesman.

[@mwaithephoto]

And I honestly felt bad at the time he got no offers but both him and LS made me see his true colors.

[@f4nex468]

true colors ? lmao

[@motherfuckingagorithimcomm6136]

Please elaborate I’d love to see your opinion

[@AlexandrosXY]

what are his true colors?

[@vazhamamatsashvili9508]

rainbow, coz he's gay

[@lifenote1943]

ahh yes, because he doesn't fit your preferred personality archetype he's a bad person or whatever tf. And he did get offers, but just from lower EU teams and I think some NA teams

[@houcineaka9289]

Man Thorin buddy you just explained what i tried to explain to insects in chat for years in a 40 min video and look what happened you triggered the slaves thats why you have such an amount of dislike and Nemesis is a funny guy who literally think he's top 3 midlaners in LEc even magifelix if he had good communication he is a way better midlaner than him

[@ThomasMueller999]

Same. I've had comment wars for years and attempted to explain why Nemesis is only a high mid-tier player.

[@thejakobistable]

Nemesis is definitely not the best european Mid. For my money Humanoid, Caps, Perkz and Febiven played better but so many points in this video are just garbage. Why did I listen to like 4 shows or more in a row Spring Split 2020 where you made jokes of Nemesis' championpool issues when that was his best split in your opinion? Why did Bwipo, Hylli and Selfmade constantly overengage when Nemesis created really good pockets with Veigar, Cassio or Ornn? Why didnt you look at the 2020 Final Drafts and how Bwipo + Hylli inted these games where it was literally impossible to do more for Nemesis and even Perkz said that on his stream once. And how boring are these I heard behind the scenes comments that only lead to "he said she said".

[@lifenote1943]

yeah it's pathetic, I feel like Nemesis killed his dog or some shit 10 years ago

[@yoping00]

Who even believes what this boomer has to say? he's cringe.

[@thejakobistable]

​@@lifenote1943 If Thorin hears these kind of things from legitimate sources behin the scenes it is obvious that he wont just fu*k them up but it is so worthless to listen to these kind of statements. He is also free to make a video about whatever he wants to showcase but this really looks like he just wants to ride on the hypetrain of Nemesis right now. Recently Reddit has been crazy with "Nemesis reacts to... / Bwipo talks about Nemesis.../ Perkz about Nemesis..." and he gets 10k+ views playing soloq.

[@thejakobistable]

Nemesis could legitimately just say "I heard from some trustworthy sources behind the scenes that Thorin likes CBT" and it had no real value whatsoever too.

[@checkmate7345]

He must be getting these opinions from somewhere. Rather than attempting to discredit him by saying his points are garbage why don't you put two and two together and realise that it's people in the scene who are telling Thorin all these things but they don't want to outwardly come out and say it. Thorin is very well connected in the scene.

[@lukabozic5]

Nemesis fans malding LMAO

[@DoggyP00]

LS fans*

[@ilie5219]

@@DoggyP00 nemesis fans* ls didn't get touched in this video

[@DoggyP00]

@@ilie5219 Why are you lying lol? Nemesis would have 2 digit viewers if he wasn't taken in under LS's wing lol.

[@lifenote1943]

yeah it's hard to watch someone you like get flamed by a teenager in an old mans body and then have an army of results based analysis andies defend his toxic disgusting behaviour.

[@lukabozic5]

@@lifenote1943 Result based analysis = LS term = LS degenerate fanboy It's not flame if it's a fact, now go back to your cave and watch LS's stream

[@ThomasMueller999]

THANK YOU! I have been saying for years that Nemesis is not going to improve any top tier team. His track record of games at international events is also very flawed. The only reason people defend him is LS.

[@ilie5219]

There are a lot of people that don't watch nemesis because of ls or at least when they do something together so not really.

[@lifenote1943]

yep because past results dictate a player's current level.

[@ItsCronk]

@@lifenote1943 Which EU midlander is Nemesis better than right now? Why is Nemesis not in a LEC team?

[@ps-qi6jd]

@@ItsCronk I don't watch Nemesis that much, but i'd argue he's at least top 5

[@rafabellini5267]

LS and nemesis fanboys be storming out here like crazyman from LS stream i can see it

[@ImpairedGorilla]

anime pfp checks out

[@rafabellini5267]

@@ImpairedGorilla i just stated a fact yo

[@ImpairedGorilla]

@@rafabellini5267 so did I

[@sownyp9980]

I love how all the nemesis fanboys commenting on the video they didn't watch are doing exactly what the video says they do

[@lifenote1943]

nah I watched all of it and I'm frankly disgusted in the way Thorin conducted himself

[@sownyp9980]

@@lifenote1943 Then you are disgusted as people presenting arguments u disagree with apparently. Very 2021 of you I guess

[@MrDzala]

@@lifenote1943 huh? He said he's a good player with flaws in communication and attitude like most not elite level players? That's not a hot take and isn't offensive or shiting on him. Normal Thorin rant with some spice in it, but mostly reasonable.

[@faiscatuga9312]

LOL i remember that spring playoff finals not beeing about kog lulu and top lane jankos wunder sinergy just LOL

[@spartanvinc]

This is the point though, that for example was the time for Nemesis to step up from mid lane and he never really did that. This is why he's saying that Nemesis isnt a great midlaner like Perkz/Caps but a good midlaner like Humanoid/Larssen.

[@psyche5059]

@@spartanvinc you mean likes caps shouldve against IG when he was 0-2, or when he was 0-2 against FPX

[@user1134b6s]

@@psyche5059 Yea when Caps was against two world class teams meanwhile Nemisis couldn't get a fucking title in his own region?

[@psyche5059]

@@user1134b6s G2 was a world class team, the won msi, and reached a final, the point is that even elite players cant just pull out a 1v5 performance against world class teams. Caps, rookie, knight, perkz are all players i wouldnt expect to turn a 0-2 result around, to me that metric is not necessary.

[@user1134b6s]

@@psyche5059 Eh that's implying Nemisis had to 1v9 he had some of the best players in their roles at the time. He was the weakest link on his roster of Fnatic

[@cj3951]

Fair criticism, however, if you are going to criticize nemesis, bwipo and hyllisang should be on the list as well.

[@CxerRy96]

Bwipo and Hilly aren't out there proclaiming they won't come back to LEC unless it's for a top team or mad money

[@ps-qi6jd]

@@CxerRy96 Well yeah ofc, because they are still in Fnatic, which I assume pays their players good money. If Bwipo or Hylli got benched they'd probably also look for good money, or retire if they didn't find good enough offers.

[@CxerRy96]

@@ps-qi6jd That's fair enough as long as you keep that to yourself

[@ps-qi6jd]

@@CxerRy96 Yeah true good point. Seems irrelevant to tell that to his audience.

[@MrDzala]

Isn't the focus of the video Nemi? Thorin criticized Bwipo and Hyli numerous times.

[@hoezouikheten]

I think the problem is that Nemesis doesn't have the same drive as Caps and Pearks enz have. Sure winning is fun but I don't think he really wants to prove himself, I think he is fine with making a living out of playing the game (which he can do by streaming). He has skill but I don't expect him to be willing to really work on himself so I don't expect him ever return to te LEC. He is great at soloq tho and people like watching hes streams so he will be fine.

[@aurelionsolplays2656]

he's living rent free in Thorin's head hahahahaha, you cant make this up

[@hotlinekrapfen]

"skillset was never the issue" "I say he is underrated by GMs and he should be picked by one of LEC teams"

[@distortion6981]

You cant use logic and facts man Thorin rly hates nemesis and thinks he is a shit player :)

[@j.vdubois5074]

Translation into moronic: Nemesis has good core skills (especially laning and matchups) but terrible attitude. But he may be good enough for bottom tier orgs to bet on him. And now my own opinion: this is highly unlikely to happen because Nemesis has huge ego, brags about money and generally would be unwilling to rebuild his reputation from down up. He will probably protect his ego always fantasizing how he was this misunderstood EU faker who was held back by scrubs like Selfmade, Bwipo, Hylissang and Rekkles. Only if he had better teammates to shine.

[@QtDivinity]

who's here from LS stream right now PEPEGA

[@jackailmikhailmathias366]

I am brother. XD

[@shadowdoyler]

Me xD

[@kyleallen22]

Breh

[@jimmybaker4821]

Biased fan boy detected

[@CatnamedMittens]

What happened?

[@SpaceZeee]

Too many nemesis fanboys. The dude is mediocre at best

[@MestoLV]

I don't like him but I enjoyed his Veigar at Worlds against Faker ngl

[@meknassimohamedamine82]

i like nemy but that summer finals in 2020 where he couldn't carry with azir and corcky says a lot

[@ranslot8304]

You are the most dedicated nemesis fanboy I have ever seen lol

[@gilarlington4993]

Meanwhile nemesis fanboys are brigading and disliking without watching. But Thorin is the fan boy.....sure buddy

[@ilie5219]

@@gilarlington4993 well what u expect my man has very low viewership compared to nemesis and didn't actually prove anything in this video literally just fooking talked for 40 minutes straight

[@AnasAnas-bz2cy]

I'll give you a like even though you blocked me on twitter cause that shit is funny af😂👍 And very true

[@alanbadzo]

imagine saying "its ur time to shine" when it was clear that he had to adjust his champ pool cuz selfmade wanted to play fun only junglers lol xD

[@nikitamarynich1794]

Selfmade carried garbage SK Gaming, what has Nemesis carried?

[@MauriceGucci]

Selfmade couldn’t play Nidalee jungle (one of the most fun and most op picks in 2020) on stage because of (as he called it on stream) “mid lane champion pool issues”. So in fact it’s quite the opposite lol

[@colinmcbottle]

@@MauriceGucci He said "solo laner" but if you compare which champions Bwipo and Nemesis could play to complement Nidalee (basically anything with a safe to land stun for the spear into gank), it was clear it was about Nemesis, specially because Nemesis both would not play Renekton mid, he wouldn't also allow Bwipo play it either on his own lane lmao. And people say Rekkles is a diva.

[@Adjacent_2]

so Thooorin doesn't play League or know the name of most items/champions... why is he talking about League again?

[@user-qt2we6mb6k]

Cause he is league of legends keemstar, old man trying to make himself a peer with people the age he wishes he still was.