Thorneycroft: A Victorian Bullpup Rifle with Volley Sights

[@ben9820]

Thorneycroft is the most British name for a gun ever

[@andreamusso1469]

100% agreed

[@korpifox5445]

Next to the Tally-Ho Govnah Zed 93

[@lazlow98]

You mean the name for a rooty-tooty-point-and-shooty (UK English)

[@sharjeel.k126]

More specifically Scottish

[@dr.vanilla9017]

No Tommy Thomas Waston

[@bigginga3885]

A bullpup bolt action rifle from the Victorian era almost entirely encased in wood Absolutely glorious

[@eduardopupucon]

it's edwardian i think, not victorian

[@bigginga3885]

@@eduardopupucon You're right, Queen Victoria died in January of 1901 and the rifle was patented in July 1901

[@nerdyspinosaurid]

@@eduardopupucon yeah, technically the title is a lie

[@legionitalia309]

Somewhere there’s a nice old English table missing a leg.

[@turnip5359]

Legionitalia A man got shot by police for carrying a table leg :(

[@KingdomOfApple]

Listen, you’re either for early 20th century rifles, or old English tables, not both...

[@alphagt62]

whoop DeHoop I heard about that! I hope he sued the pants off of them.

[@grootsChannel]

@Kieran Dean weird, usually there's a bot responding to you

[@SHDW-nf2ki]

probably a bed post

[@jharris280zx]

Ian: "hey Karl I got this old bolt gun I want you to try out". Karl: "ok what's the catch?" Ian: "it's a bullpup." -Connection lost

[@eisenkrieg553]

DatsunChaser620 Remember it's the Tavor he hates with a passion. Kel Tec's RDB gets a good rating from him.

[@jharris280zx]

EisenKreig he's also not a fan of the Steyr Aug, or the L85.

[@GodsGrampa]

Nobody is a fan of the L85

[@thomasbartlett6129]

GodsGrampa except the people who use it.

[@KC-bg1th]

Thomas Bartlett The people that used it hated it the most.

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

There's more wood than gun! What a sight to behold.

[@wierdalien1]

TheGoldenCaulk #yeoldeaesthetics

[@Punisher9419]

Get out of here mike.

[@HouseholdDog]

Baker7498 You could beat someone over the head with it.

[@wierdalien1]

Baker7498 legit dont understand the question

[@repletereplete8002]

no it won't defend against edged weapons. That's why you must simply attach razor blades to your helmet and headbutt your assailant.

[@ur2c8]

He always says that the National Firearms Centre collection is not open to the public but never mentions that the Royal Armouries Museum itself is open to the public daily from 10am to 5pm. The museum is home to the UK national collection of arms and armour, and admission is free.

[@georget5874]

pretty cool place, but why on earth did they decide to build it in Leeds.

[@54356776]

@@georget5874 Why not ? Leeds is central to most of England and easy to get to. There's another in Portsmouth that has the naval stuff.

[@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo]

@Bobby Banana Birmingham.

[@YorkyOne]

@@georget5874 Leeds is in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Yorkshire is God's Own County. Why on earth would you locate it anywhere else?

[@bobcervante3801]

@@georget5874 because the entire country is sick of everything being located in the south eastern corner!

[@ollilehtonen6764]

That stock design looks elegant

[@andreamusso1469]

Well, it's English.

[@gustavoscottifraga4541]

The whole gun is just a big ol' stock

[@TheRogueWolf]

An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

[@nicholsjoshua15]

I'll take a good blaster any day.

[@minisciencedude]

Unfortunately those days are over.

[@adriankingston4338]

Back then ........ Sir stand your ground while i bestow upon you a new orifice 🧐 Today ....... Shlick...clack BOOOM!!!

[@hugebartlett1884]

Back when men hacked each apart with bayonets.

[@samholdsworth3957]

end them rightly

[@user-ns3vs3bp3e]

Well if you run out of ammo it looks like you could make 2 or 3 clubs out of the wood alone 😂

[@TheRogueWolf]

You could make furniture out of this weapon's furniture!

[@josemoreno3334]

LOL.

[@vannjunkin8041]

🤣😂

[@ExUSSailor]

"You certainly can fire it from the shoulder..." Well, it would be pretty pointless if you couldn't!

[@vulekv93]

I think he meant that you have to break your aim while cycling. When you cycle SMLE you don't have to move your cheek from the cheek rest and you don't have to break your sight. At least that's my theory, might be wrong.

[@robertlong5712]

This guy is so lucky to hold history in his hands and tell the story of these world changing weapons

[@andymac4883]

1:52 'This isn't something you could cycle from the shoulder' 5:47 Proceeds to cycle from the shoulder. I dare say the rifle is better than you're giving it credit for! :p

[@Seelenschmiede]

I think he meant "while cheak resting on the stock" you would punch yourself in the face maybee

[@emu4286]

Perhaps he misspoke and was thinking of how you need to break your cheek weld to cycle it (considering the cheekpiece is directly attached to the bolt itself), which isn't something you necessarily have to do with the SMLE.

[@andymac4883]

emu4286 Seelsenschmeide That would make sense.

[@ianmatthews2912]

andymac4883 He said you couldn't cycle it from the shoulder left handed as you would get bolt in the teeth!

[@CrudeConduct666]

@@ianmatthews2912 no he didn't. He said you couldn't SHOOT IT left handed because the bolt may recoil into your face. Nothing to do with cycling it.

[@UnintentionalSubmarine]

I would say this is a steampunk rifle, but it is just so clean and wooded... It's woodpunk!

[@BillRoyMcBill]

It's an Elven rifle...they don't skimp on the wood. ...wait, I didn't mean for that to sound sensual!

[@UnintentionalSubmarine]

Thornycroft when he brought home the rifle to his wife, after a long week in the workshop. "Ohhh your wood is so clean and... so smoooooth! And just the right size too." Oh dear, woodpunk is bad for you.

[@hansebee]

The only thing turned off by this sensual piece of polished Art Nouveau wood ...is a tree

[@Infinite_Jester]

If you tried to trade it to those pesky elves, they would kill you.

[@BillRoyMcBill]

Tripticket They already have them, but they'd probably give you some high-quality Elven wood...for free.

[@matthayward7889]

I have a soft spot for bull pups, and I thing this rifle looks exceptionally handsome. Thanks Ian!

[@kentheyorkshireman6257]

Matt Hayward Bullpups just have a certain appeal don't they

[@liamholcroft7212]

a love for bullpups is a part of being british.

[@axelkusanagi4139]

I guess I'm British then. Cuz I'm shit-smearing insane for them.

[@jimmyrustler8983]

Until you have to fire one. I've fired two different types, I'm left-handed, and they both had piss-poor triggers and weren't leftie friendly. Trust me kids, bullpups are a concept that most carbines do much, much better, without having to sacrifice trigger performance, spraying brass in your face, or having a charging handle hit you in the lip (Fuck you, SA80)

[@michaelkeha]

@@jimmyrustler8983 my experience has been the opposite with bullpups

[@t4ketsuru]

the godfather of bullpulps

[@floo1465]

Isn’t bullpulp just hamburger meat?

[@grifter3680]

lets all take a moment to appreciate just how perfect the title is...

[@TheStogie0102]

No glove on your cheek Ian?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Ssshhh, don't tell the museum.

[@neonman54]

Forgotten Weapons okay, secrets safe with me

[@will5989]

That was, well, cheeky.

[@howey935]

I love the royal armouries museum so much to see and it’s free to visit. The full size elephant armour is really impressive.

[@ianfinrir8724]

Somehow the armor by itself is more intimidating than an actual elephant.

[@edxcal84]

I've been watching this series for about 3 years now and this is a great example of why! Beautiful firearm that I'd never heard of, may not have been a been the best weapon but really stands out as a first and has been forgotten to history, you help keep it's history around! Thank you!

[@PumpkinSpiceCornbread]

That black dot on the wall behind Ian had me convinced there was a spot on my screen

[@riodorado254]

I don't see a dot...

[@Calvin_Coolage]

Oh man, I've been waiting for a video on this rifle.

[@theguitarprogresschannel1907]

Tyler Mcintyre neither of those are good.

[@xXbrokenvoidXx]

Your profile picture is great

[@maverick9708]

I'm impressed to a profound degree, that the camera was able to focus through the aperture sight onto the front post

[@tonyneo6100]

Brave people to come up with new ideas and getting them accepted.

[@George_Doc]

Georgeous wood work

[@peterhopkins4748]

Thank you Ian, the wait for this was well worth it. I first came across this rifle as a very dodgy line drawing in a book along with just a few lines of text that didn't say much. For a long time this has been in my view something of a mythical beast so actually being able to see it in the flesh was wonderful. I have something of a soft spot for bullpup rifles and I am sure that there are a few more rare ones that need hunting down. I sense that the reason it was not successful was more to do with it being rather too radical rather than any real mechanical or operational flaws. Keep up the good work. 879 likes and 1 dislike at time of posting it looks like there is a non-believer in your congregation.

[@Jeffer326]

Also known as the first edition Muckamuck by Jakobs Legacy Firearms. Remember: If it took more than one shot, you weren't using a Jakobs!

[@bofoenss8393]

Fun Fact: Thornycroft (I know, spelled differently) is usually mostly popping up in relation to development and construction of the early torpedo boat destroyers and destroyers for the Royal Navy up until the 1920's

[@ericstromberg9608]

That's lovely. I can imagine a fancy Art Nouveau furniture option, if it had ever gotten to the civilian market.

[@Ph33NIXx]

After understanding how well designed the lee-enfield action actually is, i understand why they didnt adopt this... even though i really like the design. It doesn't fit with the english emphasis on "the mad minute"

[@Fyrebrand18]

mad minute?

[@Ph33NIXx]

@@Fyrebrand18 a standard in the british army originating from WW1. The goal was to do high rates of fire for 1 minute. During WW1 the germans were reporting being under MG fire when it was really just highly skilled riflemen. This standard, how ever decipated during the war as soldiers got less and less training before going to the front.

[@MichaelJenkins910]

Thank you! I've always been curious about the Thorneycroft and this is likely as close as I'll ever get to seeing one in person!

[@Steelion69]

The Thorneycroft seems like something that was actually invented in the 1950's not the 1900s lol

[@forza1sra]

How so?

[@sunder6745]

The5ociopath still looks archaic and unrefined. It has a level of weirdness only reached by early 1900's guns.

[@zacht9447]

it seems like something built by a carpenter from the 1880s

[@AGS363]

Like some kind of reverse Dardick....

[@louisbeerreviews8964]

XLightningStormL no is wrong is 1901 not 1950

[@Predalien195]

All the times I've done reading and research on bullpup weapons and their roles in history there was always a mention of this gun. But this is the first time I've ever seen one.... It is definitely an interesting piece.

[@austinrees]

Pretty little elven gun.

[@Niafi11]

Dude...That is the Coolest, Old-type Rifle I have EVER Seen. I want one.

[@jamesbussey2911]

A nice rifle, like most of them from that era. The main advantage of the Lee-Enfields was firepower: a ten round magazine and fast reloading from stripper clips. Lee's bolt was also the best design of them all for speed of reloading between shots. Hence why the first full-bore rifle I (and many thousands of other boys) fired was a 0.303in rifle, after training on a single shot 0.22in rifle. In my case as a cadet in the early 1980s on the No4 and No8 rifles. Our ATC squadron also had an immaculate 0.22in LR falling block single shot Martini rifle; basically the heavy barrelled .22 version of the Victorian era Martini-Henry rifle (of at least three other calibres I know of). The best rifle of any calibre or mechanism that I have ever shot in my life. Luckily I left cadets to join the Army before they brought in crap rifles like the 7.62mm L81A1 and L98 SA80 derivative. Tho' the No8 soldiered on until just a few years ago, to be replaced by a more modern .22in piece of crap and air rifles...air rifles!!! 🤪 But then in the army we had the L1A1 'mechanical musket' to have to shoot. Hence why if there was an L4A3 LMG to carry, I would happily take that instead. 🤓👍...probably still would to this day, to be honest. Only three things are perfect in this world: God, Kevin, and the Bren Gun (only people of a certain age will get any of those three cultural references). 😜

[@thunderbug8640]

Another interesting vid as always. I was wondering if you and/or Karl would consider doing a video on the different types of bolt action. Its always said that the Lee-Enfield action is quick, the Mauser action is strong and Mosin action is not particularly good, but im still unsure as to what makes these actions different from one another (bolt actions to me all look pretty identical in operation) and what is it about each design that gives it those different characteristics and why each designer designed the action in the way they did.

[@BEEGfrog]

Bloke on the Range has a series comparing Mausers and Lee Enfields

[@Gasmask11000]

If you’re interested in checking out some other videos by other channels that can maybe explain some of it, I have some suggestions. Like the person above me mentioned, “bloke on the range” has some videos talking about the Lee Enfield vs the Mauser. He actually has one video dedicated specifically to explaining why the Lee Enfield is so fast. C&Rsenal is a fantastic resource if you want incredibly in-depth videos about the history and function of these guns. These videos also explain a lot about why the designers made the choices they made. They have not covered the Mosin yet, but they’ve covered the Lee Enfields and the Gewehr 98, and plan to do all the major small arms of WWI. Ian has done a bit of collaboration with both channels.

[@sethrich5998]

A very brief explanation is the difference between front and rear locking lugs. In general a design with front locking lugs will be more accurate and stronger. This is due to the bolt head being positively located where a rear locking lugs design allows for bolt head play as well as additional movement from compression and buckling while firing. The advantage of rear locking lugs in general is cost of manufacturing and reliability. It is generally easier to machine rear locking lugs in a receiver. It is also generally easier to keep rear locking lugs clear of debris. Beyond that the specific design has to be evaluated but that's a good starting point for comparison.

[@Sedan57Chevy]

Also want to recommend Bloke on the Range.

[@hugebartlett1884]

Basic difference is having the locking lugs at the front of the bolt,or the rear. I think the Lee Enfield lugs are at the rear,making for a much smoother action.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Wonderful. I have been waiting so long for a thorneycroft video since reading about them during school lunch breaks in the 80's

[@rememberjerry936]

That’s some of the most beautiful wood work. It looks like it’s right out of some steampunk retro si-fi setting

[@colinmcgrath2392]

I'm going back and watching all the videos on British bullpups because I'm so excited about the book!

[@P7777-u7r]

Bullpup concept is far older than thought yet it's thought of as a new and futuristic thing

[@TheNotrussian]

This one of the reasons i subbed to this channel. the weird weapons, keep it up Ian.

[@gorillapieman]

I found an image of this thing on google AGES ago without any information and I'm happy that somebody finally laid that mystery to rest! I thought it was a bullpup garand experiment or something.

[@nicholasmorgan7609]

That is very aesthetically pleasing

[@dannyboi4440]

just wanna say I watch your videos every day and i appreciate your efforts in educating us on these interesting weapons, keep it up please

[@theoroinvictus]

wow what an interesting looking weapon, stuff like this is why I really enjoy your channel

[@aidans4866]

Just when i thought i knew of all Enfield Rifles.. you did it again, i love learning by watching

[@SafetyProMalta]

I came back after 2 years to watch this again.

[@CommodoreFan64]

I'm not a huge bullpup fan, but I'll say it really cool to be able to see where they came from.

[@bigbud6842]

That's an absolutely gorgeous design

[@johnbrennan3735]

I love the VERY OPTIMISTIC open sights out to 2,000 yards, especially considering that with the size of the arc of raising it up that high the rear diopter will effectively no longer be round as the shooter looks through it.

[@shelbyseelbach9568]

Awesome. Your videos are always good, but this was a really unique design and it was fascinating to see. Keep 'em coming.

[@einefreunde]

Thank you. Have great Christmas

[@szedlacsektamas3959]

Am i the only one who thinks this gun is one of the most elegant bolt actions i have ever seen?

[@MEGALODONGERS]

This isn't actually the original Thorneycroft rifle. It's the follow-up model co-designed by Moubray Farquhar and Arthur Hill.

[@skepticalbadger]

MegaloDorian Pretty sure Thorneycroft didn't invent the 1902 version either. He was likely just the patron. Farquhar was the inventor.

[@MEGALODONGERS]

Quite possibly. Farquhar seemingly isn't mentioned in the 1902 patent, though. Of course, both him and Hill were involved with the 1905 rifle that Ian handled in the video, which should have been significant to mention. Furthermore, Godsal's patent for a bullpup rifle would fall between both Thorneycroft rifles. Godsal is an important name as both a pioneer in bullpup and anti-tank rifles, which he'd design the latter in 1918.

[@ep1phany62]

Beautiful furniture. Definitely a Labour of live for the designer.

[@1337penguinman]

With the availability of polymer parts something like this for a scout type rifle seems like it could be very interesting.

[@Deannatheos]

Excellent the first bullpup thank you very much this is very educational as allways.

[@m2dv_]

apart of been the first bullup rifle I think is also the first full furniture covered rifle, that wood work is crazy.

[@mongoose4117]

I typically dont care for bullpups. This bullpup is too cool! Love the looks.

[@Evolved_Skeptic]

Not merely an (at the time) unique mechanism, but a fascinatingly molded shape - very close to a pistol grip design, yet more thorny...

[@palarious]

Man, that is one good looking gun even for that time period. Would love to have one

[@daled4191]

Nice to see you in my home city of Leeds, hope you are enjoying the sights!

[@tdombui]

that bolt action is very satisfying

[@julianschmidt4905]

Very nice concept! Short rifle, long barrel. Bullpup is the way to go (even though it needs more training then other weapon systems).

[@lubossoltes321]

cool .... COOL !!! never thought bullpup bolt action was a thing ...

[@DissedRedEngie]

Louis Sanderson I'm pretty sure that mag behind the trigger is prerequisite to call something a bullpup.

[@Devin_Stromgren]

deserttech.com/srs.php

[@hjorturerlend]

Wouldn´t that make the Spencer a bullpup? :P

[@Devin_Stromgren]

Not quite. While the magazine is behind the trigger, the action is not.

[@hjorturerlend]

Exactly my point, I was taking issue with the "mag behind the trigger" definition.

[@AwesomeFantasyXI]

Might not be what you would normally look at but if you should look at a C.G Bonehill The Brittania air rifle. The were made in around 1905-1908 and were really the first British "bullpup" air rifle. They are very rare, Mine is in .177 which is the most common, they did them in .22 and the very rare .25 caliber pellet. Really nice piece of air gun history and not many people know of them so technically it can be considered a forgotten weapon?

[@jeffreyplum5259]

The aperture sight makes great sense with a rifle which needs to be dismounted to cycle. Cocking after primary extraction does not load theopening of the bolt like a traditional cock on opening system does. It seems to work smoothly. Its fit and finish make it a piece of firearms art.

[@todiathink8864]

That's NOT a rifle. It's furniture. A beautiful piece of well made furniture! ❤

[@HellbirdIV]

This is now my favorite gun. It's like it's made to appeal specifically to me; A European bolt-action, bullpup rifle from the early 20th century, absolutely covered in gorgeous-looking wood furnish!

[@emilhajbert5326]

The action seems very smooth

[@TheShadowBlade920]

Beautiful!

[@22tanmay]

What a find!! I have seen and handled hundreds but never saw this. Love watching your videos. Do get envious at times LOL!

[@MR0KITTY]

That wood is some amazing craftsmanship

[@rubengilmore5912]

you pulled the trigger? but you never pull the trigger?? great channel. ill never get bored.

[@WhenToastersAttack]

I am in love with the stock on that rifle.

[@skindancer01]

Hey Ian.....at last a Thorneycroft !, when I was working at the Royal Amouries in Shrivenham I was told that the impetus behind the design was to find a shorter rifle specifically for mounted troops not per se for infantrymen, and one of the reasons the Rifle did so poorly at the Hythe testings was that the excessive muzzle blast had a tendency to scare the horses. Have you heard any similar theories ?

[@dylanwight5764]

By definition, the first bullpup rifle is the Spencer Rifle since its magazine was housed in the stock behind the trigger group.

[@notahotshot]

By definition, you're wrong. The magazine on a Spencer was behind the trigger group, but the action was not. To be a bullpup both have to be behind the trigger group.

[@mastathrash5609]

Wow! What a fine piece

[@machinenkanone9358]

Fascinating. As usual.

[@helihunter90]

I find it i interesting in allot of these older firearms you examine you actually dry fire them. I have always been under the impression older firearms are not good to dry fire because of less advanced metallurgy from back in "the good ol' days" Maybe a good patron q&a question?

[@josemoreno3334]

I saw a pitcher this rifle in a book i have called Military Small Arms of the 20th Century (1977). It said it.s a carbine not a bullpup. There is also a pitcher of a Godsal rifle right below it. Anyway. Thanks for the info. You covered it more then this book did, Thank you.

[@jeanblack1295]

what a beautiful gun

[@gunner678]

Great video as usual!

[@shotforshot5983]

Excellent magazine layout for rimmed cartridges!

[@MagnusUS1776]

Less a rifle and more an elegant piece of antique furniture.

[@VitekPrchal]

Hey Ian, given the bullshit situation on KZbin I've decided to support you on Patreon. Keep up the great work!

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Thanks!

[@CommanderShepard75]

It looks interesting, lots of sleek lines.

[@matthewmoss1589]

Great to see a Thorneycroft up close. Certainly not as ergonomic as the SMLE but a damn sight better than the contemporary French Faucon 'Balanced' Rifle! - www.historicalfirearms.info/post/136635613428/faucon-balanced-rifle-lieutenant-colonel

[@taitonaito]

I want this sort of a thing as a target rifle actually... something tells me it'd be extremely fun to shoot.

[@djurabre229]

Wow beautiful Rifle

[@FernandoHernandez-jw4yy]

Never even seen a bullpup rifle made from wood, let alone one that's that old

[@cheeseymann]

That black spot on the wall always makes me think my cracked phone screen is getting worse

[@Teabagz4fun]

With that safety latch, perhaps it was meant to have the bolt handle in the up position? Since it looks like it’s meant to catch/cradle a downward moving bolt handle?

[@grafknives9544]

Just wanted to make same comment.

[@francisaje]

Beautiful woodwork, great for harsh winter condition, so you dont stick to a gun if handed bare handed.

[@xenothermia]

This thing looks pretty cool.

[@Purpmaster]

Really a quite beautiful rifle

[@ethan-el1zq]

keep up the good work

[@48eyegor84]

I can’t help but like the look of an almost full wooden rifle

[@TheArklyte]

Had he came with idea to make and market it as special marksman rifle aka sniper("hey, look, we have longer barrel with same size of the gun"), it might have found some use. After all, it's drawbacks aren't as prominent if you're not in a hurry to beat a record in a "mad minute". And also thus could have became first specialised sniper rifle instead of 1963 Dragunov.

[@IkeaCouch3600]

TheArklyte The SVD is a designated marksman's rifle. A sniper rifle would be something like a Springfield 1903A4 or an M40 series rifle

[@skyworm8006]

Don't retroactively apply terminology, lad. It doesn't work.

[@jonahbenabese7807]

I'd say the style, or look is the pioneer in that certain direction.