Thoughts on Dynamic vs Static Ergs (or a Concept 2 Indoor Rower on Slides)

[@janelhartman2847]

great video!! i am in my 40's and used to row when i was in college. i can hear the passion you have for rowing in your voice...and it makes me want to start rowing again😊❤

[@brianmerrill3898]

Travis, Great video! Though I've been rowing whitewater rafts for nearly 40 years, I am new to sculling. I got a pair of sliders and get the connection to on the water rowing. Thanks for taking me deeper into my understanding of what I'm doing.

[@amerritt09]

I would love for C2 to make a fan-on-rail style dynamic erg like RP3. Cheaper than RP3, less cumbersome than the slides, C2 reliability, and all the benefits of a true dynamic setup (C2 on slides > C2 Dynamic by a lot). And no stupid licensing/screen sold separately.

[@craigbrandis2405]

really great...I've erg'd for a while but I'm new on the water...your explanation of levering the boat and passive recovery (not pulling the boat toward you) is very helpful...

[@TravisGardner]

Awesome! Once rowers embrace how little work the recovery requires to execute, all that extra energy suddenly becomes available for producing better acceleration through the drive :)

[@strupotter]

Thanks for posting this so quickly! And thanks for posting so much great content!

[@TravisGardner]

You're welcome! Thanks for the idea. This topic gets me going (if you couldn't tell!) so I was happy to dive into the subject for a bit.

[@torsionality]

@@TravisGardner Anyone who doesn't get passionate about their field probably isn't good at it. I have really strong opinions on concrete that confuse many family members.

[@torsionality]

I can't really do slides because my garage isn't long enough and my driveway isn't flat enough... but I'll keep an eye out for a deal on a used Dynamic when this pandemic is all over. Looks like they store real nice on their end too, the static erg is a little too tall on it's end, I have to thread it through the rafters in my garage.

[@TravisGardner]

That's awesome! I have a very cursory understanding of concrete, but enough to understand the complexity of the subject and be fascinated by the applications. I vaguely remember a tv show or movie (no idea which one) that opened my eyes to the fact that it's not just a bag of powder I can buy at Home Depot :)

[@PaulGDowling]

Great vid

[@Justify4935]

"Rowing in the 40s allows me to stay relaxed." 😂 That's my sprinting SPM, and it's more like high 30s.

[@mattdeady6448]

I am NOT a rower, or athlete of any kind - i am a couch potato looking for indoor exercise as a complete novice with no aspiration to compete or anything like that, or even row in a boat. I'm looking at the Concept 2, and trying to decide whether the Dynamic would be beneficial for someone like me. I have no intention of receiving any professional training (i'm figuring I'll approximate proper technique by watching youtube videos). For me, this would solely be for exercise, not for training. One big reason why I'm considering a Dynamic is that it needs about 18" less space, and we are a little tight for space, though the static is doable. The main concerns i have is whether one or the other is more likely for me to injure myself due to improper technique, and whether one or the other will be more enjoyable, lead to better exercise, etc. Do you see any benefit in the Dynamic for someone like me?

[@TravisGardner]

hi Matt, I would recommend the standard (static) erg. Since you have the space you can use it and it is easy to stand up or split in two (and later reassemble) when not in use.

[@mattdeady6448]

@@TravisGardner thanks for the quick response, Travis!

[@bobk1845]

It's very easy to put a regular erg on wheels saving the cost of rollers/slides. Some years ago I mounted wheels from the hardware big box store on a 2 x 4 bolted to the Model B feet. For recovery the new system is tied to a stationary object or the wall by a bungy cord to give a spring back. Cost would be around $40.00 for 4 wheels each with 100 lb capacity. If you don't like it the investment is minimal. I've always liked it myself.

[@성이름-f9f5j]

Model d, e and dynamic Indoor. Which is more effective for leg muscle exercise? I want to focus a little more on my leg muscles.

[@TravisGardner]

They are the same. If you are rowing and not focusing on leg muscles you are doing something very wrong. The first 80% of the rowing stroke is more or less a horizontal combination of squat and deadlift.

[@성이름-f9f5j]

@@TravisGardner Is the air type more effective for leg muscles?

[@junaidsiddique3273]

Thanks for the video. For a non-professional athlete who does not row on water, and comparing C2 Dynamic rower vs Model E, purely from a full body workout stand point, which model would you recommend.

[@TravisGardner]

I'll always recommend a dynamic over static erg, but also prefer a model d/e on sliders over the c2 dynamic for both feel and versatility (i.e. you can always row without the slides).

[@BedCrunch]

@@TravisGardner I bought Model E for recreational purposes. But as one gets more and more into the sport, I am definitely looking into options for rowing on the water and joining a club (not so easy right this moment, but hopefully other times will come). And C2 dynamic does have one enormous advantage for private use: its space saving (yes, I can fold my E, but I prefer it unfolded and inviting at any time). That being said, I am happy I started on Model E, because it gave me time to work on each of my moves separately and slowly, trying to get a better technique. But I am ready to try that on the water feeling! And connecting to other rowers is actually a part of it all ... p.s. From your other answer, I see you would just recommend me a pair of slides. I will ditch having a bed to make room for it ... lol.

[@fernandbetancourt5336]

Do you recommend Oartec DX ?

[@TravisGardner]

No

[@JessieJanowski]

Which of the RowPerfect machines would you recommend to better transition back to the water every spring, the T or S? Thank you for the great explanation and video.

[@TravisGardner]

I haven't used the new models so I cannot speak from personal experience, but it appears that the internals are the same for both options. The T is simply a sturdier construction and more appropriate for commercial/standard use. Honestly the only drawback for the RP3 in my view is how delicate they can be, so if a more robust option is available I'd always go for that, even in an elite setting.

[@a124as]

I own the S. Also bought it for transitioning back to water. I feel like the S is great as long as you’re not using it in a team setting. Checking the rollers, cleaning the center bar, connecting the tablet every time is a tad more trouble than the concept 2 model D. However, when I use my concept 2 I can feel my form suffering bc I’m rewarded by using my weight to get the flywheel moving. On the rp3 you can see right away with the power curve that it’s incorrect.

[@jaytorr6701]

Some very good points. Would you recommend sliders/dynamic rowers being better for your back than the dynamic, given how the force is applied?

[@TravisGardner]

Only good technique, appropriate training loads, and balanced physique will protect the back from injury. Sliders and dynamics are definitely better for developing on the water rowing skills though.

[@frankfuentes3366]

Thanks for posting. Quick question: Do you have a lot of experience training on the C2 Dynamic and RP3? What're your thoughts on the pros and cons of each? Eric Murray has stated he used the C2 Dynamic exclusively when training for London and Rio. Would you consider making a video on this discussion or elaborating on which you'd consider to be best.

[@TravisGardner]

Hi Frank, I'd be happy to. Will put it in the queue of upcoming topics. I've logged plenty of miles on each, as well as the OarTech slider. RP3 is the best training tool for competitive on-the-water rowers hands down. The downside is that as a precision training tool, it requires the care one would expect of a precision instrument. Customer service is mediocre at best. I've actually bounced a couple messages back and forth with Eric on the C2 Dynamic and we weight the pros and cons a little different. Eric thinks that the way the machine engages the load (and thus how it requires the rower to engage the load) are a superior simulation of on-the-water rowing. I don't like the lack of recoil in the handle because I think that recoil on the standard C2 provides a better simulation of how the handle feels in a boat. In a boat the handle wants to go up and forward on the recovery whereas on the C2 Dynamic it wants to go down and, with respect to the horizontal plane, nowhere. My preferred training tool is a standard C2 on Sliders with a CorePerform (ARSE) Seat. If money was no object, I'd own a RP3 in addition and get all the special software and monitors to go with it. I would not own a Dynamic.

[@TravisGardner]

Follow up to my other comment. I've used the RP3 to streamline selection to great effect. The ability to cross reference power curves for numerous athletes at a time can be used to pair up rowers for small boats and help rowers in already established crews find cohesion in their drive mechanics. You can't do that on any other machine.

[@bropain]

@@TravisGardner Thank for your great videos sir! Best rowing KZbin channel and I just discovered! I own and use an Oartec Dx and like it much more that static ergs I've used. Much easier on low back for me. My question is why not use a training machine like the newest iteration of the Coffey Corporation SIMULATOAR and with their slider system? Have you used or considered their trainer? They're not that much more expensive that the Oartec and/or C2 with slider and much less expensive than the Row Perfect. They appear to be very robust in construction. Have been considering buying a SIMULATOAR and would appreciate your expert input. Thanks in advance.

[@declanwatson9325]

Travis, serious question mate. My wife used to row, had throat cancer, now breathes thru a stoma in her neck. Used to use the erg but. Now she finds that it puts strain on her neck and a tube that allows her to eat/ drink. With the dynamic erg and the different feel technique and feel … might this be a realistic and viable alternative given the way it’s used? Thx in advance

[@TravisGardner]

Unfortunately I would say it is likely the same unless the issue is the tube having to move back and forth with her. The one benefit would be that (assuming she is rowing well and the slides are working as intended) her neck would only move back and forth relative to the tube's source during the body pivot rather than the whole stroke.

[@declanwatson9325]

@@TravisGardner thanks Travis

[@blackjaguarlord]

Would you recommend a dynamic rower for an absolute beginner, who is only interested in fitness?

[@TravisGardner]

A C2 plus slides is great because you can take the C2 off the slides when needed. If you are teaching yourself I would do so without slides. If you will be taught by a skilled rowing coach, then you could move to the slides fairly early in the learning process. The question is not what your goals are, but rather how you will be learning as the slides require a bit more professional insight than just hopping onto a C2 without slides. So, to answer your question more directly. Buy a C2 and learn the stroke. Then pick up some slides later if you want to expand your training options with the dynamic motion.

[@blackjaguarlord]

@@TravisGardner Thanks, a bunch, sir! I'll definitely be following your recommendations.

[@adrianrozgoni5184]

Have you tried the Oartec DX,what are your thoughts? I see it somewhere between the C2 dynamic and RP3, shame that the monitor isnt that great.

[@TravisGardner]

I haven't. If they have a tent at the next HOCR I'll look it up and give it a try.

[@bropain]

I'm in the process of changing the computer on my DX to a C2 PM5 which just arrived today by mail. There's a review stating that the C2 PM5 Retrofit Model C is a perfect match to the DX's output and a perfect fit for the DX hardware. I've been using the Oartec DX for about 9 months and it's been great. I've logged about 1.35 million meters thus far and no mechanical issues. Very smooth performance IMO.

[@mict450]

@@bropain does the PM5 work on the dx? how do the splits compare to the mod d? any differences on splits between the OTM2 vs the pm5?

[@bropain]

@@mict450 Has worked great. Opens up the many benefits of the additional data the PM5 provides (force curves, etc) as well as integration with the FREE C2 ErgData app. Can now row and use the ErgData logs, etc. I purchased the PM5 that's designed for the C2 C model. Was a simple swap and perfect fit. Don't need to use the extension that comes with the PM5 as it fits perfectly in the DX extension. Has the phone holder, etc. Splits are about the same as on a static C2 Model D but without the back strain, etc. My general thought is that my splits are a bit better with the PM5 integrated into the DX in contrast to the OTM2 on the DX. IMO well worth the PM5 cost if you own an OarTec DX.

[@mict450]

@@bropain I also have a DX, and find my splits are slower on the OTM2, vs the PM5 on a Mod D. Your comments have cemented my resolve to purchase a new PM5 for my DX. Like you, I prefer the PM5 over the OTM2. It's a good little monitor, but not as versatile as the PM5. Overall, very pleased with the DX. The action is really smooth & silky. Seems like a very robust piece of kit, on par with the Concept 2.

[@bendtheoar839]

Hey, what about drag on sliders? Are there differences?

[@TravisGardner]

Great question! You would use the same drag factors on both. Ultimately drag factor is going to impact the drive phase and the impact of sliders manifests outside of the drive phase.

[@bendtheoar839]

Travis Gardner thanks for the quick answer!

[@HiNinqi]

In 2021 would you still recommend the C2 Dynamic as the best go-to for a new purchase? Or just a regular erg and hunt for slides? (If i were to do the latter I'd grab a Sunny Obsidian or Sunny Phantom) I'll be using the erg in a room at home. I'm a former rower that wants to get back into the flow of the sport asap. My preferred budget is $1.4k or less. If you definitely recommend the C2 Dynamic over a slide combo, can you also recommend a seller. C2 doesn't have any in stock on their site.

[@TravisGardner]

hi Ninqi, C2, Hydrow, and RP3 are the only rowers I would recommend purchasing and unless you are specifically seeking what Hydrow and RP3 offer, C2 is the way to go. The C2 Dynamic Rower is a solid machine, though my preference is for the standard indoor rower on a pair of slides. As for a seller, you can buy used on craigslist or row2k.com's classifieds. Definitely don't pay more than retail just because supply is short due to the pandemic. If you want to toss a consulting fee my way at gtsrowing.com, I'd be happy to help you track one down. Just email me if you're interested, otherwise, good luck and welcome back to rowing!

[@scotthimel3650]

Hi Travis, do you feel that the Oartec DX at $2,100 (out the door) is worth it compared to a $1,000 Concept 2 D? I’m an intermediate rower, but won’t be back on the water for a few years.

[@TravisGardner]

Hi Scott, I would recommend a Concept2 Model D plus a set of slides without reservation. I would buy them even if the Oartec cost less than the C2. That it costs more makes the decision even easier.

[@scotthimel3650]

Travis Gardner thanks for input. No room for 12 ft needed for slides, so can’t do that, and everyone tells me not to get Concept 2 dynamic. Hence, my consideration of the DX.

[@TravisGardner]

@@scotthimel3650 Gotcha, that makes sense. I still wouldn't recommend the DX. If you can afford something in that price range I'd go with the Hydrow over Oartec. But the C2 is still the most robust, well supported (by warranty and customer service), and widely used (i.e. broader online community to compare/compete with).

[@Laflash1]

I want to buy a pair mainly to sod my water performance but I know when it comes to erg times for e.g. 2k they do it on a static as it’s harder due to pulling your body mass right? So I guess they want to see athletes core strength/endurance and heart Also how easy is it to attach the erg on and off the sliders as I’ll have to do it often for other people using the machine.

[@TravisGardner]

The reason static ergs are use for competition and evaluation is simplicity, logistics, and resitence to change. Staging an erg race is challenging enough with 100 machines. 100 machines on slides that need to be straight and level and are tripping hazards is not a viable option. Coaches avoid slides because 1) they cost more 2) are more challenging to train with 3) same issues erg races face 4) do not understand the value and 5) want to be able to compare new data to old without confounding variables. An erg is very easy to move on and off sliders. It just rests on the rails. You can take it on and off as needed. It will be important when you put it on to ensure the rails are straight and level before using it.

[@Laflash1]

@@TravisGardner thank you! Can I get your advice on weight lifting to aid rowing. Do you think Barbell complexes are useful? Or just stick the conventional approach?

[@CSchaef02]

I just got the slides for my Concept2 Model D, and notice the feet of the erg slide/shift around in the tray forward and back. Does anyone else notice this? It makes me want to stuff some rubber or something to take up the space so it stops (for my neighbor's sake).

[@TravisGardner]

I haven't heard of this problem before. Perhaps take some pictures and send them to C2 customer support. They have one of the best support teams of any business I've interacted with and am sure they'd be happy to help you resolve the issue.

[@wrthrash]

Just wondering why this wasn't explained while on a rower?

[@ttb1513]

Would have liked to have how a concept2 works on slides. 23 minutes and no description or visuals of "slides" for ergs. There was really no benefit to this being a video instead of a podcast.