Villain/MC Dynamics | TROPE TALK

[@lucillem7706]

"Fine. Make me your villain."

[@sanjaypaul4722]

I really liked the Darkling. I understood his intentions. Bt the sequels....nah...not much. Bt he was amazing

[@camilasummers]

Best quote ever ❤

[@natashanatasha6567]

Phineas and Ferb: Dr Heinz Doofenshmirtz and Perry the Platypus

[@Happyindulgencebooks]

Villain and hero dynamics are my favourite because they're often gray and so complex!

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

exactly!

[@tessavery2151]

I love it when villians and mcs have great dynamics. I feel like it . Ames the story so much more realistic.

[@Smalldoseofcrazy]

I don't think I'll ever get over Alina and the Darkling, you just don't see that kind of intense interaction between character often enough. More fleshed out villians 2018!

[@drlc6051]

My absolute favourite Hero/Villain dynamic is Charles Xavier and Magneto from the X-Men.

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

OMFG SO TRUE

[@theinkedpath9631]

I support that! They are so great!

[@Madika92]

Delphi I thought of them the moment she started talking about it

[@Himmyjewett]

I really wouldn't called Magneto of villain he's more misguided if anything the dude had to go through the Holocaust and seeing the horrors of humanity would probably put a lot of people in Kill mode

[@malloreyrogers7987]

I thought constantly about Vicious by V.E. Schwab during this discussion. I’m DYING for you to read it!!

[@haleylarue1192]

Mallorey Rogers I just said the same thing 😂 Victor and Eli's dynamic is so amazing

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

soon!

[@haleylarue1192]

Vicious by V.e Schwab is literally this trope ( I don't know if you've read it or not, but I highly recommend). The two main characters Eli and Victor have such an interesting dynamic

[@haleylarue1192]

Also, I love the nails

[@graceoc5613]

This was the video that I didn’t know I needed

[@kittymachine3798]

I too love adversarial relationships that are RELATIONSHIPS in the truest sense. They become a fixture in each other's emotional and psychological landscapes. The interactions become so rich when there is respect, and precious moments of truth, vulnerability, insight and understanding... and yet they still choose to oppose each other. It can be so awesome!

[@sersvati]

I’ve seriously been hoping for this exact video for over a year now Thank you for blessing us

[@AllThingsAudiobook]

I totally agree the Grisha trilogy has the best villain and MC dynamics. I haven't found a book to top that.

[@annfernandez3859]

This entre video you just had me thinking about Avatar: The Last Airbender because there are SO many interactions like this, especially in the second season, and it's just so top-notch, considering it's a children's show. The first two episodes are pretty weak, IMO, but the third really brings it home, if you're interested.

[@padmeamidala40]

I recently rewatched the show and it was incredible! I thought it was one of these things you liked as a child but is actually really bad

[@user-bm7fw6on9c]

We have been blessed in ways we didn't anticipate. Thank you for this series Sam, I've been waiting all my life.

[@nihad-m]

Sherlock Holmes vs Moriarty for sure!

[@as.829]

Villain-hero dynamics are literally one of my favorites, if they’re done right! And ahhh, I love it when the MC feels the pull of the dark side, because then things start becoming truly interesting. “Everyone has darkness inside them, however hidden”

[@chloemarie5173]

I feel this way about the weird dynamic between Serena and June in The Handmaid's Tale. Though there's much more of an imbalance of power between them than what you're describing. They'll have these brief moments of mutual respect and camraderie that quickly come crashing down again and they go through these cycles. They're one of the most fascinating villain/hero dynamics I've seen.

[@Ashely56]

Chloe Marie I though of this same realtionship too. I came looking through the comments and did not expect to see another Serena and June comment. I'm am happily suprize though.

[@tkfan123]

All for One and All Might from MHA are such a great villain/hero dynamic

[@Caraphatash]

Goldenloin and Blackheart from Nimona kinda fit this, and it also has the element of past together so they still have a certain amount of care for the other but are still on opposite sides

[@booksaftercollege6714]

My first intro to this dynamic was the Joker and Batman and I’ve been obsessed ever since! Another one is Inuyasha and Naraku but I’ve never really found something as satisfying outside of comics and manga though! I’d love book recommendations!

[@lunasunlight3329]

100% agree! I find these kind of dynamics between MC and villain so fascinating :D Voldemort/Harry, The Darkling/Alina, Darth Vader/Luke, Sherlock/Moriarty, Hannibal Lecter/Will Graham, Patrick Jane/Red John etc. etc. I love the interacations between MC and villain 😆

[@gintoxic4283]

Harry & Draco came into my mind. Not so much for the mutual respect kind of thing, but because there's always this undertone of similarity and alternative realities in which one of their upbringing was different.

[@gintokiisbae1127]

Do you perhaps know a book character like Draco. he is on the dark side, but also on the light, he doesn't know if he is good or bad. He makes mistakes, but also grows through them. he is confused and a coward. basically the characteristics of Draco. A harry and Draco type of relationship would be cool as well.

[@angelique9527]

So excited for this new series, I love discussions like this! This is one of my top favorite tropes, along with the “fall from grace” and the “great sacrifice.” I wish I had some good recs for this but unfortunately Alina and the Darkling are the only ones I really know off the top of my head; I typically try to look for books where the villain IS the main character lol. And even then, I’m not always successful. Great video and I can’t wait to see what else you’ve got in store!

[@taylorandgraphite4772]

Try out renegades by Marissa Meyer, the villain is the main character and the romance is purely villain/hero

[@booksvsmovies]

I love it when the hero and villain were friends once and know each other well (especially when the villain manipulates their past friendship) . The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August Claire North and Vicious by VE Schwab do it so well. Two sides of the same coin will always be my favorite hero villain dynamic.

[@smolcisco8574]

Maybe you've already watched it but... I have a feeling that you would really enjoy the series Killing Eve... its 8 episodes and stars Sandra Oh from Grey's Anatomy and the show centres around the MC/Villain dynamic heavily. Highly recommend it! Awesome video too, love trope talks! :)

[@jakerockznoodles]

Since others have mentioned other media too outside of books, I've been binging on Doctor Who lately and the relationship between the Doctor and the Master is up there with my favourites. You have two guys from a very similar background both sick of life on their home world and steal away to explore the universe. However, one ends up using his incredible knowledge and expertise to aid people wherever he can and the other abuses his knowledge and expertise for personal gain and accumulation of power. It's the small touches that make it though. Like I was watching one story where the Master had been locked up and the Doctor was visiting him and when he said "Ah! What a wonderful surprise!" the Doctor actually smiles before catching himself.

[@fictionalives]

YES to so much of this-- especially the protagonist and villain having a lot in common. i really love when stories raise the question of what the difference between the good guy and bad guy really is

[@booklanerecommendations]

Light and L from Death Note are a lot of the things you just mentioned. They are rivals who admire each other's genius and see each other as worthy opponents. Light is a villain main character who does bad things for what he believes are good reasons. L is a "good guy" who is trying to hunt him down, but sometimes uses bad means to help him achieve this goal. L becomes fascinated with Light and it is clear that in another world where they weren't each other's nemesis, they could have been friends. They are also eerily similar in some ways and polar opposites in others, so you could definitely call them each other's mirror.

[@vavila16]

Vin and Zane in Mistborn. He was so manipulative and added even sparked her interest. I loved the scenes with Vin strengthening her powers while chasing him/uncovering his true identity.

[@TheThreeBookshelves]

Vicious by V. E. Schwab has a very interesting protag/antag relationship. Also have to recommend George R. R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series for Jaime and Brienne!

[@heatherabner]

Yassss. I just finished the grisha trilogy and love love loved it!! Before you even said it and hinted at it I was screaming Alina and the Darkling. I will finish the rest of the video now.. 😊 Edit: just finished the video and I can't wait to read the rest of the books you recommended. They all sound delicious and I can't wait to dive in!

[@idratherbereading5766]

MC and villian dynamics are the most interesting thing to me I wish there were more books with that. I love this video and your nails oh my stunning!!!

[@BeautyBookCorner]

I loved this trope and was never able to pinpoint the relationship. “Enigmatic dynamic” is a perfect description. Yesss... Alina x Darkling! Such a complex relationship.

[@camilasummers]

When you were describing this trope you were pretty much describing the dynamic between the Darkling and Alina piece by piece 😍

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

basically

[@akankshasingh7000]

Even though Madoc and Jude (from the Folk of Air Trilogy) are not exactly opposite, I love their dynamic mostly because Madoc is angry and impressed at the same time and how Jude wants to impress him and overcome him at the same time. An also how the author gives their relationship page time so we really feel that dynamic.

[@Secretgirl97]

I recently finished the Queen of the Tearling and definitely love the dynamic between Kelsea and Evelyn! Especially in book 3. So dark and respectful of each others powers.

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

i love them

[@Ashely56]

I really like this relationship between Serena Joy and June(Offred) from " The Handmaid Tale" more so their realtionship in the show than the book. June even says " if things might have been different we could have been colleagues". And there are these moments when June respects Serena Joy and Serena joy does the closest things she can to respect. In addition Serena can be so incredibly cold and vicious but also she has moments where we can see that she feels and feels bad. I just can't get enough of their very complicated relationship.

[@ermreading]

I love this trope to death!!! Maven and Mare from Red Queen do it so well, especially in the last two books and I eat it for breakfast, lunch, dinner and dessert

[@polka.dotgirl]

I love listening to you talk about tropes you love because you're so eloquent. I've always loved this kind of dynamics but more and more lately I'm feeling so pulled towards them. I have grown tired of black and white thinking and all around good characters and like you said "character struggling with their humanity" are so complex and interesting. The Darkling and Alina are a couple I also adored because of how thought provoking and complicated they were and I'm glad you gave me more recommendations (even if they're not romantic). Can't wait for more trope talks!

[@nicroachster]

the dynamic between Dracula and Vanessa in Penny Dreadful is so good!

[@Himmyjewett]

This is a little off-topic but every story about Dracula is just fanfiction

[@yapdog]

You've just given me a greater confidence that I'm on the right track with the "villain"/MC dynamics in my current novel. I was feeling a bit... _wobbly_ about my approach, but now I feel I have the right mix; I just have to play up certain aspects and maybe tone down others. Thanx again, Sam!

[@LL-vn4hl]

I feel like you would love Hamilton (if you don't already) or at least appreciate the relationship between Hamilton and Burr. They're like two sides of the same coin and despite their rivalry they respect each other. Plus, Hamilton is very much a grey character

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

I would so love Hamilton but I can't get into plays unless I see them. ONE DAY

[@lissette5523]

I recommend the show Cloak and Dagger. It's on Freeform, but you can also watch it on Hulu. It's a show about two teenagers named Tandy and Tyrone. Tandy can conjure light and Tyrone can conjure darkness. They have different lifestyles. Tandy lives in a church and she steals to get what she wants. Also, she has a substance abuse problem. Tyrone's the kid who goes to private school and has his parents. Given their circumstances, you would think that Tyrone would be the one to attract lightness and Tandy darkness but it's the opposite. Tandy can see people's dreams when she touches them while Tyrone can see their nightmares.

[@s1n_eater]

this made me think of Eve and Villanelle in Killing Eve, their dynamic is so dark and romantic, I love it.

[@maddyhoke3907]

YAS! I adore this trope! A bit of an obscure example, but just like Basil and Rattigan from The Great Mouse Detective.

[@karkatvantas9557]

There are just so many of these in the Skulduggery Pleasant series. It helps that basically every character is extremely morally grey. Skulduggery and Serpine, Skulduggery and Guild, Valkyrie and Melancholia, Valkyrie and Stephanie, Darquesse and Vile, Darquesse and Mevolent, China and Eliza, Tanith and Sanguine, Tanith and the White Cleaver, everyone and Dusk. Basically the entire series is dedicated to examining the line between heroes and villains, to the point where the main protagonist and the main antagonist basically end up being the same person. It's such an awesome series.

[@darquessed3543]

I agree and my favourites are Skuldugger/ Solomon Wreath, Valkyrie/ Melancholia and Valkyrie/Darquesse.

[@karkatvantas9557]

I did consider including Skulduggery and Solomon, but ultimately I decided that Solomon isn't enough of a villain, so it's more of a "protagonists who hate each other" situation than a MC/villain dynamic. I don't think Darquesse and Valkyrie count either because they straight up hate each other, and Darquesse has absolutely no respect for Valkyrie.

[@Gabrielathebook]

Oh my god, have you watched Killing eve? You must!! That's now one of my favorite villain/mc dynamic and relationship of all time. Female assassin vs female investigator taking place all over Europe with some romantic tension... it's perfection

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

omg so many people are mentioning this series in the comments and I need it

[@amy6610]

When I read the Grisha Trilogy I had never experienced a dynamic like Alina and The Darkling and I FELL IN LOVE, but haven't found anything since. It's so powerful and well done, i LIVE for it. I've been told that Web of Frost by Lindsay Smith has a VERY similar dynamic but the difference is that the MC ends up siding with the villain...? Or something like that! It's on my TBR very soon and I hope it's true!! Loved this video :)

[@kiyajade7]

I would definitely add Vasya/Morozko/Konstantin in The Bear in the Nightingale to the list of interesting Villain/MC dynamics. Also, cannot wait for your recommendations on Hades & Persephone retellings! I need more of this in my life!!

[@tpstps85]

kiyajade yes!!! I LOVED Vasya and Konstantin antagonism!!

[@melanies6610]

I cannot stop staring at your eyeshadow! So gorgeous

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

thank you :)

[@alexisbaldwin125]

Idk how anyone else feels about this but in Cinder, I thought Kai and Levana’s dynamic was done well, especially with the politics between Earth and Luna. It seems like a more black and white, good v evil story, but it was nice to see it directly, face to face with them. I haven’t read Scarlet yet, but that dynamic has me more interested in politics-heavy fantasy.

[@theinkedpath9631]

Hi Sam!! Gosh I am extremely behind your videos. Growing up I never cared about villains but, as I became attracted to writing I found them very alluring as you can so more with them (morally speaking) and, as you say, to me, if a plot is good the villain is a good developed as the hero. It shows, in my opinion, complexity to the character and the plot itself. Weirdly enough, I know I have a good villain in font of me when I hear his /her voice in my head (Example: to me the Darkling has Joseph Morgan’s voice, the actor that plays Klaus in TVD). If I hear a very distinct voice in my head when the villain speaks it is working.As you can see The Darkling is my weakness (because of your recommendations I may add). And yes, heroes and villains is the best dynamic (the romantic one also appeals to me but that one depends on the novel). I know I will sound repetitive but I love the relationship between Victor and Eli from Vicious Hugs!

[@SuperHappyNotMerry]

I knew there was no way you weren't going to mention Alina and the Darkling when discussing this trope. I've always loved this trope and I also enjoy the whole tempted by the dark side. I also like it when a character does cross onto the dark side and the dynamics that awakens between that character and the villian, plus the dynamics that arise between the character and their friends.

[@hannahtaylor6235]

kavinsky and ronan :)))

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

OMG KAVINSKY AND RONAN I FORGOT

[@TinyNDangerous]

Yes Queen of the Tearling, hell yes Grisha Trilogy! Traitor to the Throne, the sequel to Rebel of the Sands, has one of my favorite hero/villian dynamics because it's almost like a corrupted mentor relationship. And I LOVE mentor relationships so it messed with my heart.

[@aliperry2521]

Dude The Queen of the Tearling was EXACTLY what I thought when I started watching 🙌🏼

[@Juli6SS]

I never thought much about this trope, especially with a romantic side, but than Kylo Ren and Rey happened and now I'm hooked😆😁👍

[@twixotic04]

Yesss

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

this trope is forever my undoing

[@thejenmath]

REYLO!

[@masha1683]

Juli-Yashka yesssss REYLO lol. I shipped them from the start (TFA)

[@amyr3293]

I loooove this trope, and I like it even more when the two somehow end up having to work together to defeat something even worse. This happens in Micheal Grant's Gone series, I absolutely love the MC/villain dynamic in that book. For a historical fiction recommendation I'd go for When Christ and His Saints Slept by Sharon Penman, its about a struggle for the throne between King Stephen and Queen Matilda in Medieval England, but I've studied this period in college and those two were actually real life embodiments of this trope, I love it!

[@helenthuy]

Please do a video on recommending books that have hate to love relationships (enemies to lovers sort of thing)

[@bm2197]

Kelsea and the red queen do have what’s so far my favorite dynamics between a protagonist and her nemesis

[@jackiesliterarycorner]

I don't have a book recommendation, but two from a television show; Jim Gordon & Oswald Cobblepot; and if you haven't seen season 4 of Gotham this is a bit of a spoil, but the Valeska Brothers with Bruce Wayne.

[@HOTTOGO25]

Staring at your nails for this whole video 😂 love it!!!

[@NicoleBroca]

This is one of my favorite tropes too, if not my favorite! Especially that hole “good character drawn to the dark side”, ugh. The only thing I wish is that there were more books/movies/TV shows with this trope. And I actually would’ve loved Alina going bad and joining the Darkling haha

[@laracastro-]

NicoleBroca in an au alina and the darkling are miserably happy ruling ravka together idc what lb says that's canon to me :P

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

same I think about dark!alina all the time

[@laracastro-]

I'm so glad you mentioned Lia and the Komizar too (I mean, I knew Alina and the Darkling would be there cause ofc they are the epitome of this trope, so no surprise there); their dynamics are great and I think the Komizar is a very underrated villain tbh, he's great!

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

he is!

[@Arisutocrat]

OH YES the Komizar and Lia in the Heart of Betrayal. It's probably my fave villain/mc dynamics in YA. I *love* the Batman and Joker dynamic in general, throughout different versions too! Also if you've ever seen the netflix voltron... Lotor and Allura, bro.

[@claryy8]

Ah, I just knew that Alina and the Darkling would be in this video. They just have such an amazing and complex dynamic, hands down my favourite villain / MC dynamic so far! 😍😇

[@IAmEmmaElaine]

The Rachel Morgan series, The Hollows reminds me of this + slow burn romance.

[@abi_rose]

I know you weren’t a fan of the first book, but I love the dynamic between Todd and Mayor Prentiss in the Chaos Walking series. You get a lot of close interactions between them in the second and third books and it really shows the different facets of the Mayor’s character. He’s my favourite YA villain, and I wait to see how Mads Mikkelsen portrays him in the movie, as he does complex villains so well

[@kb-ih7ni]

Almost literally every dynamic you mentioned is in RF Kuang’s The Poppy War series. Saw in your recent upload that you just got the book, hope you like the series!!

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

OMG CANNOT WAIT

[@mishaq898]

Alina/The Darkling and Lia with The Komizar are my two favourite mc/villain parings ever and I need more of it in my life

[@Vorhangstange]

Thought about Alina and the Darkling right from the beginning of this video. The best of the best

[@noer2453]

The nemesis-respect relationship between a MC and one of the villans is very well done in the Eragon series by Christopher Paolini.

[@twixotic04]

Omg I would die if you did an analysis on reylo!!!!

[@emilywebb9066]

Leo Carew's book The Wolf has two examples of this trope, one with the 'overall' enemy of everyone, and an enemy that is on the same side as the mc. Both enemys interact with the main character with some form of respect and there is a continuous power shift within both relationships.

[@KierTheScrivener]

I totally love this trope! non tropey villain story, Adelina Amouteru from The Young Elites. Definitely going to check some of these out!

[@crystalsbookishlife]

I know you probably don't want this rec, because I know you don't want to read them, but Clary and Sebastian from the Mortal Instruments series, but only the last 3 books. SO GOOD. MUCH VILLAIN/MC ANGST.

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

duuuude ok I've actually only been tempted by TMI because of what I've heard about Sebastian!

[@lilabreina]

Wow I love this video so much. So excited for more trope talks! Might incorporate them on my channel too, such a fun idea :)

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

thank you!

[@masha1683]

Yeah the relationship between Alina and the Darkling was my favorite thing about the Grisha trilogy

[@aidacelicaguilar7927]

This is exactly what I like about this trope. Especially equally matched bit. Like I am so much less interested by villains and heroes who have huge power differentials. No, I want them to be able to face off each other in equal ground.

[@aidacelicaguilar7927]

Also I know you've been told this many times. But god read vicious

[@KeepCalmwithBooksandCoffee]

This sounds like Kate and Hugh in the Kate Daniels series especially the power dynamic part and they are very similar. I love their dynamic.

[@SissouLoveVideo]

My favorites hero/villain dynamics are : Alina/Darkling, Rielle/Corien for the furyborn series ( even if i didn't finish kingsbane yet and I am not entirely sure we can put Rielle in the "hero" category ), Kate/Hugh and Kate/Roland from Kate Daniels ( I love Kate/Roland the most because it's the more important and very complex, but Kate and Hugh also are two faces of the same (other) coin, the fight between Kate and Hugh in book 6 is one of my favorite scene and Hugh was just EVIL/FANTASTIC in book 7). But if we can add all fiction the absolute winner would be batman/joker

[@NovelistDienne]

Ugh your nails are to die for each and every time 😍

[@booksandsass5324]

Oh! How could I forget! Inkmistress by Audrey Coulhourst is this trope to a T!

[@linalessa1995]

wait pause i need a second: GIIIIIIRL THOSE NAILS!

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

:))))

[@siddhilonkar9415]

Marie Lu's The Young Elites triology has great villain-mc dyanamics...

[@charlotter3399]

When you started the video I immediately thought of Alina and the Darkling! I love the Darkling and part of me wanted him to win...

[@corey5914]

I LOVE YOUR NAILS

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

thank you!

[@ZwischenTausendZeilen]

Oh yeah. Jessica Jones, Season 1 had the craziest MC/villain dynamic I have ever seen. Holy cow!

[@rabidraviv]

YES I love this trope so much

[@glencochrane901]

Like the nails!! Puurrrrrrrfect for this subject.

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

:)

[@PumpkinMozie]

Great video series idea!!!

[@agameofpages9818]

I know he isn’t considered your traditional “villain” but when I was watching this, all I could think of was Anatole Kuragin from War and Peace (I know you love your period dramas/miniseries, so I would recommend the recent BBC adaptation). But Anatole, for me, represents the villainy in men, and he takes the innocence from Natasha. They’re literally black and white, night and day. There isn’t so much of a respect there, more of a lust filled relationship, but man it makes my heart sing!

[@Himmyjewett]

Honestly the perfect villain and hero dynamic is batman and joker. Both respect and know each other are strong and both a physical and mental sense. Both batman and joker are two sides of the same coin. They also have a deep history with each other. Batman also is tempted by the darkness and holds his self back with his classic no kill rule. Jokers goal is not to kill everyone or some classic Sauron type goal. The joker wants to break batman to the point where he kills him. Joker is so obsessed with Batman in point where he's basically in love with him.

[@TheLittlebats]

I just started the Grisha trilogy . Seven chapters in and I'm already dying over Darkling/Alina

[@aneweliseonlife]

This sorta reminds me of a lot of manga, Like Guts and Griffith in Berserk by Kentaro Miura

[@AlchemicalEmma]

Haven't even started watching the video and I'm waiting for the Darkling to appear.

[@PSYCHOreader624]

Totally love this trope!!

[@charityyoder9028]

I was going to say Magnus and Cleo... Though we all know he's not such a villain after all.

[@ThoughtsOnTomes]

yeah he is more an antagonist than ever a true villain, even early on.

[@aphroditereads]

I think you'd really enjoy where dreams descend based on this trope

[@stacisbookishprobs8043]

The Darkling 😍😍😍