Three Pretentious Abstracts - with Tom and Zee

[@RickyMags]

I've owned Gentle Rain for a while and its been a ton of fun. If you like a light puzzly game its a good time. Also fantastic to play with kids, my 5 year old loves playing with me and I can talk up the Zen'ness for her. She gets into pretending.

[@rgmnetid]

Hahaha! "Tom: They don't even call it water. Zee: No, no, why would you?"

[@johnf285]

I always appreciate honest opinions. So many KZbin vids feel like commercials, these reviews feel like how my friends and I talk about games, movies, music etc. It’s refreshing.

[@a1111night]

I’m personally finding it refreshing to hear these other thoughts from the Dice Tower. Don’t get me wrong. Of course I love the top 10 list and the reviews, but hearing other sides of your thoughts playing games provides more to the channel imo. Love these kinds of vids and look forward to more :)

[@Atariese]

I appreciate when the back of the rule-book has a little blurb in the back of the rule-book about the game design, and who the designers are, and why this game exists, and the concepts of what you are doing. This is all stuff that belongs there. Its extra info if you want it. Like how some games have a full background of all 30 characters and why they are at odds. That goes AFTER you learn how to play, not during/before. Get me to play the game first, then i can care about your message.

[@bones983]

Quin sounds like a great companion piece to Cones of Dunshire.

[@travisskane5459]

which pushes my Light Particle; yes, my humble Light Particle to the Central Cone.

[@JimmyWorld]

This was a fun segment. Hope you guys explore something similar again in the future.

[@scotthinckley2649]

I think Tom nailed it on Quin with, "this game makes me feel like if I understand it, and can play it, that I'm better than you..." The group this game was designed for, IMO, is a bunch of seriously nerdy college students who game. If they choose to take the time to actually master it, then play it a lot in their group, the barrier to entry playing it with them becomes very high, and it will tend to make them feel superior to other gamers who have not taken the time to master it.

[@isaacalien]

The Philosophy gamexjogged my memory of an older game called "... And then we held hands" which I think matches the intention this designer was peddling because it was (IIRC) a cooperative game where you had to try and balance each others actions, far more about respect and creating a conversation without words

[@ripcitygamer]

I think Tom's outfits need to be dually rated in similar fashion. 😜

[@thedicetower]

Hey, that's fair!

[@MrDJCoulton]

Well Tom always dressee sharply so he's not too worried

[@jgregveneklasen2657]

“Duly” 😉

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

Maybe his hats?

[@alexjackson7804]

As the board game space increases and more amateur designers try their hand at making one, I think there are artistic individuals who are exposed to the sort of ritualistic or even performance art nature of physical gaming (as many performance art pieces are literally a box of components and written instructions…) . They lean into this, without having the background in gaming to design something very compelling to play. There is also a preoccupation in the wider world with a sort of “therapeutic culture” that the first two games seem very immersed in, as if the therapeutic elements and lovely components will *soothe* you into a satisfying experience.

[@nope7832]

i really agree. It's normal to want to push back against the hyper-consumrism of the board game industry as artists. I respect anyone who tries to use the medium as a vehicle for another type of message, even when they fail. Wolves (coyote and crow) is a good example of this.

[@MussoGames]

I have to say… this comment is kind of pretentious 😂 but I agree.

[@rumpleforeskin1275]

This is hysterical. Please make more videos like this

[@Rhonna_Roo]

I enjoy a gentle rain, but i never "score" it. If I place all the flowers, great! If not, i shuffle up tiles and try again. Scoring does put an added anxiety/pressure to the play.

[@gregbroxterman]

ha, i've had conversations end with "that was a good conversation"-like remarks, but it's "good talk" and it's generally meant disparagingly XD

[@lazykbys]

Like the way some people say "good game" just before their victory is confirmed.

[@bloodrunsclear]

After all these years you guys still gel so well

[@MrThorwolf]

You guys have an amazing talent for keeping a straight face.

[@jacobstein5678]

Love the hat! Also really appreciate you both consistently playing abstracts and doing these videos.

[@anthonywestbrook2155]

Illimat leaned into being pretentious, and it totally worked. I even have the 7" vinyl of Colin Meloy (lead singer of The Decemberists) explaining the rules the game. The game is basically Casino (the card game) with extra steps, but the intentional air of grandiosity and mystery just makes it more fun. It also uses the "totem that represents your essence and being" mechanic. Mine used to be a tigers eye (stone), but is now a miniature of myself riding a motorcycle while holding a spear and a cup of coffee that a friend gave me.

[@thomasromanelli2561]

I almost backed Quin during the KS campaign, but thought the game was needlessly complicated, graphically non-intuitive and relied far too heavily on the aesthetic rather than the substance. The FOMO rating of Quin was above-average, but ultimately I decided that there were better games out there. Pretentious rating 11/10. Thanks, Tom & Zee! 🖖

[@terencemccormick8178]

I backed Quin. It delivered a little over three years past its original expected date. I also was disappointed by the rather haphazard presentation of the rules, though they do seem clear and consistent once you do grasp them in their totality. I'm still waiting to find someone willing to play, in any event.

[@th3cha1rmak3r]

I'm still so looking forward to playing this one. I do believe that it's rough on the edges and pretentious but DT tends to have an attitude of "I'm annoyed because this wasn't proofread by publisher so now I'm gonna bash it hard". I'm going to forgive the designers for their pretentiousness if the game is good, and I don't judge abstracts if I don't have at least 10 games under my belt, understanding what I'm doing. Also, it seems to me that abstract game designers should learn from trick-taking designers. For some reasons abstract game designers are afraid to just spit out the rules, and they need to add some really cringe inducing theme and text. I mean, last two I played, Lost Cities and Patterns really didn't need any flavor text. Just paste a theme and let me try to guess why that theme, it's actually more interesting than writing some stupid crap. I don't expect Knizia and Thompson to get bashed though :D

[@quinthegame6245]

@@th3cha1rmak3r OK you two are making me think I should actually watch this pretentious video and give Tom a chance . . .

[@rexology_bg]

I was interested enough in Quin to track down a copy and can't quite see how you land at a 2 rating. It definitely needs better learn to play rules, as the 5 step thing does not do a good job, but once you play a few times and see how things interact, it is an interesting head-to-head puzzle. It is definitely a bit obtuse and requires more of the players than most games to learn, but it is far from a bad game in my opinion. As far as pretension, they definitely go all in on the theme conceit, so if you don't buy in, I could see it being taken as pretense. I appreciate the abstract concepts in conjunction with the abstract game myself....but I may also be pretentious.

[@curtislinden9297]

19:08 That is a crazy sentence LOL

[@jennera]

Great review! Haven't played any of these but really enjoyed the pretentiousness (is that a word) scores and descriptions of the games.

[@jameskirk4692]

I think you both nailed it! Thanks for the video.

[@nonamenow3839]

this calls for a live play through with the designer(s) of Quin...

[@quinthegame6245]

We're ready anytime. :D Cheers!

[@samanrahemi2199]

I wish there was a dedicated section for explaining the rules for each game like other videos (even those for bad ones)...I get it though, that the focus was more on the pretentiousness part as a problematic. my highlishts: 19:16 - Zee's laugh cracked me up...21:36 - "it's Stratego on something alright, but it's not steroids!"

[@seniscram7958]

Lol..Quin sounds so crazy bad that I might like it. Like a bad B movie that in itself has me intrigued. Bizarre enough to make me want learn more.

[@PointTakenAway]

The kettle is calling the pot black.

[@rollyon9415]

I share Zee’s deep annoyance 😂 worse than pretentious, these are patronising. Is Tony Robbins making board games now? I think this is analogous to self publishing, first earn the right to be pretentious by producing something great and then don’t be. Great games especially abstract ones I think can transcend but all the worth of a game is in the game. If you respect and love games then it’s even more annoying! Nothing against touching on these things as a bit of fun or context for the game or theme but don’t tell me to relax or respect my opponent in the rules, that’s nonsense, I’m an adult, nobody looks to a game to provide gnomic advice.

[@Chereebers]

You put your finger on what I was feeling - the pretension is patronising and infantilising.

[@palacsintaz]

Those Gentle Rain setup instructions sound exhausting. Do I have to change my clothing and pick new music before each play? (But I am very happy that it's back in print, been eyeing this one)

[@jacekzychlinski]

Great review guys! :)

[@john-qz3fu]

One glass of milk please Tom.

[@steelman774]

Great video. I giggled at how the video about pretentious games (basically, a big swing at a theme that fell way short) had an obviously dodgy ripoff instrumental of Bon Jovi’s song Living On A Prayer. I know it’s been a recent trend for the DT, but it kinda makes me miss the days of the free Apple iMovie tracks. 😂

[@MrDJCoulton]

Philosophy feels like a great game with a tack-on theme. The theme is beautiful so thats why the gap is so big.

[@shanedoe3462]

"It's Stratego, on some Clearwater, Florida basement/lab-produced crystal meth.....with canker sores."

[@BrandonGraham]

Philosophy takes a few games to get used to the icons, but presents an interesting challenge. The Respect piece is kind of silly, but we did pass it back and forth with the same energy Zee described. But if was fun.

[@OldManYellingAtCardboard]

Is it wrong that describing Quin as feeling like it was designed by someone going insane makes me really want to play it?

[@mrsmarshall2005]

Cool conversation guys.

[@williamjames2941]

I respect YOU Zee 👍🏻

[@andrewp3043]

hahaha I loved the pretentiousness ratings. I actually really like Philosophy, but we approach the theme with a silly attitude.

[@ianw0ng]

that's new. makes me wonder how many kinds of hats tom still hasnt shown us. i think he has the mad hatter locked up in his basement just making new hats.

[@chrisfong8929]

This is one of the funniest videos I’ve seen in a while on this channel. 19:06 made me burst out laughing.

[@shanedbunting]

Interesting i watched a playthrough with Stella and Tarant a while back for Quinn and it looked somewhat kinda cool.

[@JorWat25]

I hope Shut Up and Sit Down cover that last one, I really want to see Quinns' Quin review.

[@quinthegame6245]

We're so ready.

[@Haldered]

the word that comes to mind watching this is "snake-oil"

[@thegamesninja3119]

I used to try to relax with game, a Gentle Rain, but then I took an arrow to the knee... I really shouldn't have tried to play the game while in Skyrim.

[@alexjohns229]

Should Tom be doing a video about abstract board games, or taking Punxsutawney Phil out of a box on groundhog day? LOL.

[@0megaD]

I actually enjoy Philosophy a lot. Pretty much ignored the theme and enjoyed the cutesy casual look of it. The iconography was not that confusing for me and against a good opponent you will be 'simultaneously' attacking and defending a lot, rather than strictly being on defense. It's basically a battle for tempo until you reach the end-game state where almost every move is bad. That said I wouldn't be surprised if this game could be "solved" similar to how they say endgame Chess is "solved" for endgames with a certain amount of pieces left on the board.

[@petercsm5769]

You had me at the thumbnail.

[@nope7832]

Quin sounds like Terrence Howard improvised himself as a board game designer

[@quinthegame6245]

I'm gonna take that as a compliment. :D

[@joshsimons7214]

Follow up any of these games with The Root Beer Float Challenge. 🍒

[@areallystupidguy630]

Quin looks like it was cut from the Meltscape cloth.

[@unrealed]

Between this video and the other about disappointing games, today is Sadturday at the Dice Tower it seems

[@NormalTheBand]

Quin reminds me of the video game 'Balan Wonderworld'. There is clearly a great Autor vision at play here.... its just absolutely divorced from reality!

[@JonTripp115]

Cool conversation.

[@hugesinker]

Time is a mask? That's pretty deep, fam.

[@quinthegame6245]

Time is an infinity symbol made to look like a mask. We actually thought it was pretty clever, not to mention cool. But if that's too much, all good from here.

[@bigg3110]

Tom you're reviewing Gentle Rain as if you have never reviewed it before. Wonder if you remember and how you think the new edition compares?

[@Lordjunon]

Quin sounds like its more Absurd than Abstract, Its waiting for godot in board game form (But Waiting for Godot is good)

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

Do a video rating Tom's hats.

[@LegoAssassin098]

Gentle rain seems like a solo, stripped down version of the AllPlay game Pollen

[@brianlong9100]

It’s the other way around. Gentle Rain predates Pollen by a couple years.

[@dominikbalazka9855]

@@brianlong9100 Pollen is a retheme of Samurai: The Card Game (2009).

[@minimoose7890]

I respect everyone here

[@rgmnetid]

16:57 I laughed to tears.

[@NineInchN]

Please, more pretentious abstracts games reviews 😂

[@NadDew]

the last game reminds me of those pretentious untalented artists who thinks there art is on another level us mortal beings cannot comprehend 😂

[@quinthegame6245]

Let's see your art my friend. :D Cheers to not ragging on people you don't know.

[@NadDew]

@@quinthegame6245 lol why did you get triggered? did i mention someone by name?? are you one of those artists?

[@quinthegame6245]

@@NadDew Nah. I just like to remind folks that indies are made by real people. We don't have to worry about PR departments or *profits*, so we can say whatever we like when people are rude online. Have a great day buddy.

[@lastburning]

@@quinthegame6245 Oh, you made the last game in the review? No wonder you're salty! Haha! You say you don't have to worry about "profits" but it costs money to make games. Gongrats on being "real people" btw.

[@IsaacDavis-p3c]

Love the hat

[@rain1224]

The last two are clearly products of Kickstarter

[@MrDJCoulton]

I hate to say it but that's right on the money. Publisher usually weeds these kind of games out

[@quinthegame6245]

Oh we absolutely were. No issue there. Quin is so small and so indie, it would never exist without our backers. Cheers to going outside the norm. :D

[@healthytouch101]

I want to like A Gentle Rain, it comes out at retail at Target this month, but it just seems like an activity more than anything. This is ultimately not for me; I agree with Zee about the puzzle not being soothing.

[@conillet]

Pushing the opponent's pieces to get three in a row sounds like "Boop". How does "Philosophy" compare to that game?

[@whiteflare2008]

Boop is an abstract done right on theme though, especially if you do also happen to like cats it just so easily convinced, definitely a good representation of trying to line up cats on a bed.

[@Naru-Maki]

Boop you always have full control. Eventually in philosophy the board gets super crowded and things will end up happening the same way all the time.

[@peterkarlsson1825]

The only third.

[@darbyl3872]

Pretentious is subjective, and rating games on it is, itself, a little pretentious. Nothing in a game can make me feel inferior. That has to be coming from within a person. While a "respect" token is weird, and a game with a 98 page, rambling, "rulebook" / storybook is over the top, calling them pretentious is a matter of personal taste. So, most of this video I take with a big grain of salt. If the gameplay is good, and the rules are reasonable to learn, that's all I care about.

[@darinherrick9224]

I am getting the feeling that maybe these games are philosophically a little too deep for you? I mean you wanna talk pretentious look at the $500 mini filled kickstarters or the deluxe version of a Tsuro. I mean if you think philosophy and zen is stupid that’s cool but I wouldn’t call a work of art a toy.

[@JamesOrr1987]

Which part is a work of art? If you don't understand the pretentious nature of these you're part of the problem.

[@nerdyjawsh]

Spoiler alert...... Board games are toys. That's why if you go to a toy store, they have board games. If you walk into a target, or Walmart guess where the board games are... The toy aisles.

[@quinthegame6245]

We dig your take on this Darin. Only thing pretentious here is Tom "reviewing" a game he clearly barely played. I get it wasn't his thing, but just say "I gave up. Not for me. Couldn't get past thinking the Strategy Guide was the rulebook." No need for all this punching down, acting big nonsense. We think smart gamers are an underserved audience, and we're gonna stick with that. If we bet on the intelligence of our audience and lose, it was still a worthwhile bet. Now to go meditate in my fairy garden . . .

[@chuckm1961]

In Gentle Rain, there’s INTENTIONALLY a lot of guessing, because it’s GOING FOR A ZEN FEEL. It is possible to treat a game with a light touch and also get a score. Memorizing every tile is in no way the intention of the design; though nothing prevents you from doing so, as long as you realize you are playing a pretty luck-based game.

[@Fi4z]

Capitalizing words doesn't make them corect. You may find guessing calming, good for you. I most definitely don't

[@Rhino1186]

I especially don't think I've ever seen anyone write "going for a zen feel" in all caps. 😂

[@BeefyChud]

Going for a zen feel and achieving a zen feel are two different things.

[@aurygos]

You say "none of these games are changing lives". Is there such a thing as a game that does in fact change lives by its very design?

[@GlenRunciter-vq8de]

There’s a noticeable shift in tone on the channel lately

[@daledonovan1875]

And not for the better.

[@thedicetower]

What do you mean? We are reviewing the same amount of games as normal, and our tone is pretty much the same.

[@BeefyChud]

Tom has never shied away speaking his mind about bad games. Maybe there has been a few more bad games than normal. Tone seems the same to me.

[@flawed1]

I watched Tom physically tear up a game. I used to play with my now deceased grandmother years ago. Love it or hate it, it’s not new

[@JamesOrr1987]

The tone has been pretty consistent for going on 20 years, idk what you're referencing.

[@quinthegame6245]

A simple, "Not my thing" might've sufficed. Not that punching down on indies isn't cool . . . Only thing pretentious here is Tom pretending this is a review. You don't have to like it. I'm cool with that, but you don't even talk about gameplay. Instead you mistake the Strategy Guide for the Rules and spend your time poking fun at the publisher name? Flipping to page 50 of the bonus material and shocked it didn't make sense? Big stuff. Time to get back to smoking my pipe with the Harvard boys down at the yoga studio . . . Like *deep* strategy? Don't think "H2O" is some secret college-boy code for water? We're hardly as complex as the average Euro, and the 2nd Edition Rulebook is in the works, as well as numerous gameplay and how to play videos. Come check out Quin for yourself. You don't have to like it, but we're betting you will . . . if you actually play it.

[@lastburning]

I agree with everything else but I just don't like calling games toys because it feels like belittling the craft and art of game design.

[@kylemartin7871]

Maybe the problem is the stigma that "toy" is something immature. Video games are toys and require a lot of work too. So do model airplanes, drones, etc.

[@BeefyChud]

No one’s going to start referring to board games as toys regularly. It’s technically correct. They are objects designed for play.

[@darinherrick9224]

@@kylemartin7871if video games are toys so are movies and books and music.

[@darinherrick9224]

Chess is pretentious. Go is pretentious.

[@JamesOrr1987]

No. Those games are not. People can be pretentious playing them, but these games are themselves presenting as such intrinsically. There's a difference.

[@daledonovan1875]

The content sure seems to be getting meaner on the channel lately, and that’s sad. Conscious or not, turning to negativity may drive more views but does a disservice to the hobby.

[@thedicetower]

Well, our intent is not to be negative. And we certainly don't do negative reviews to get more views. We LOVE games (I just played for two days straight!). But it's more of a disservice to the hobby if we DON'T review negative games. Besides, look at all the reviews we do in a week. Most are positive! We are doing our top 100 games of all time this week, we did a top 10 list three weeks in a row, and more!

[@darinherrick9224]

There is nothing inherently negative or hostile about criticism. And banishing it is how people get brainwashed. Criticism is essential to free thought.

[@daledonovan1875]

@@thedicetowerThanks for replying and clarifying. The crew of DT does a ton of work to promote the hobby, and that’s why this tonal shift is so bothersome to some. Reviewing bad games does serve the hobby; smirking cynicism does not. The channel’s status as an industry icon is well deserved. I still feel, however, that overt smug negativity tarnishes the luster of that status. Thanks for all you do, and for reading this.

[@flawed1]

Years ago I watched Tom literally physically tear up a game I used to play with my now deceased grandmother. If you don’t like it, that’s fine, but it’s nothing new.

[@JamesOrr1987]

@@daledonovan1875 Tonal shift? DT has been giving out good and bad reviews forever. They don't focus on only bad, or only good, which is why they're the gold standard, You get it straight, good or bad, which as a consumer I and anyone else should appreciate vs. bought and paid. You also aren't required to agree with the DT on any one review. If you like a game they don't review well, then great. But it's important to have honest opinions given, even if they aren't always glowing, which is reflective of the real world and real people's opinion. Nobody likes everything, nor should they.