Throwing a Pilum - How far can a Pro throw?

[@tods_workshop]

Hi All, and thanks so much for a generous response - very kind. Having gone through some of the comments let's talk.... 1. Armour, no he should not of been wearing it and yes I should absolutely have highlighted that this would effect distance and that is my mistake. The reason he should not be wearing it is that wearing an (almost inevitably) badly fitting set of something and the lack of familiarity and chance of injury means that I would be crazy to ask him to and he would be crazy to say 'yes'. But this is a hole in this test for sure. I hope he will be back and then he may be willing to wear mail as that would be the gentlest type, but for those thinking segmentata- no way. I could however find an experienced reenactor and if he can throw XXm in armour and XXm out, then these figures could be extrapolated to Michael's throws. 2. Distance. Michael threw long and can certainly get longer, these were genuinely his first few throws and so you have to assume there is plenty of room for improvement, which may partially offset his lack of wearing armour. So Michael threw mid 20's m and then 28m on his first two, then went up to mid - 30's, and then with a running throw, his first two were in the low 40's. Was this typical? Who knows?, but it does prove that it can be done. Was it done at these distances? everything happens in war, so sometimes yes, was it the norm? If you thrown vigorously and relatively unskilled (me) then it does start to tumble out at about 15m, so maybe for the panicked and pressed this was more realistic. 3. Trajectory and speed. Let's set some targets up and find out. the machine was set to throw at 36 degrees, which is about what Michael was throwing at and the distance was about the same, so the speeds will be about the same. Is there a speed difference and so energy/momentum difference at 15m compared to 30m? My feeling is little, but if there is ever a motto for this channel it is "let's find out". 4. Patreon. I have an idea.....I don't currently have Patreon, and these films are all self funded and so I was thinking of making a simple offering. I make a film like this one for instance, then the Patreon offer would be a follow up film with me talking through some of the comments and ideas that have come up (for instance the evident spin on the throws - unexpected) and effectively respond to my own films and of course the odd Tods Workshop and Tod Cutler dagger draw. Not asking for commitment, but would this be of interest?

[@history-online]

I loved this experiment, but I would be interested to know roughly how much time Michael spends on training. A legionnaire may not have had that much time to practice throwing a pilum. We also have to keep in mind that Michael has built his body to throw spears, while a legionnaire probably would not have been able to do that to such a degree. Patreon sounds like a good idea to me. :)

[@dominov]

I see that you probably noticed my or a similar comment to what I wrote. I definitely understand that his health is the most important thing here and he has to decide on what will be done. But maybe giving him a simple ww2 style soldier vest with a few weights might have a similar effect and should be less dangerous (I think and hope). Either way a great video and great job by both of you.

[@Kurokuma10]

Absolutely 100% would be interested contributing to a Patreon page. The scientific approach you take on historical exploration is fascinating and significant, and I would love to be able to support that work.

[@markfergerson2145]

Last things first: I am on a limited fixed income and can't be a patron but sure, go right ahead. Many KZbinrs do so with good results. Some actually make their living on it. ... Medieval armies were typically divided into csvalry, archers, pikemen etc. Did the Romans have dedicated pilum throwers? If not, your personal best may actually be more representative of what a generalized Roman soldier could do while encumbered by armor and either standing still or advancing at walking (marching) pace, definitely not running ahead of the rest of the formation if the enemy was only 15m to 30m away.

[@lady_draguliana784]

You could also use your Patreon supporters to bounce ideas off of BEFORE releasing (or even before you begin filming) a video! Other Makers here on YT make good use if this (and you are, technically, a maker by YT standards) and you could potentially iron out kinks in whatever you're working on before they become a major headache for you later on!

[@han5henman]

Todd, you are too hard on yourself! That was a fantastic watch! And chappeau to Michael for helping out.

[@gcl2783]

I concur. Less apologizing for making content; more pilum-ing on the content.

[@_kodokami]

I cannot agree more :) Todd did a beautiful job with this video and like always brought us closer to understand, in this case ancient, historical weaponry and how probably it was used :) GREAT JOB TODD!

[@larsbundgaard5462]

Yeah, what is the channel without Todd? It's what's all about.

[@anawipazukawaste5378]

Don’t worry Todd, you are like our Time Machine to the past! Thank you

[@PDeRop]

I think it's what smart people do. Second guess themselves. Learn from mistakes. It's why you need to hear the goof-ups of The Beatles. Loved the video.. learned more about persevering.

[@lindybeige]

My understanding was that the volley of light pila happened at about thirty yards, and that of heavy pila at six yards, just before contact, and this seems to confirm that.

[@rugratrik]

It just seems so close. Wouldn't 6 yards make the risk for still being unbalanced/out of bracing position, and thereby more vulnerable to the impact? Recovering, repositioning, drawing your weapon and bracing/charging in would take about 3 seconds, so throwing any lower than 10 yards seems to me to be more hazardous then helpful (to the line as a whole).

[@haakonhaugan7340]

I'd assume the big shields helps a lot with keeping your defence ready as you throw, possibly you'd even parry with the shield before drawing your sword... At least, that is my thought, with no real research, practice, testing, or anything like that behind it.

[@khankrum1]

@@rugratrik You are missing the point of the Pilum. It is a pre contact weapon not a javelin! The aim is to create maximum disruption to your ,opponent's. I say opponent's, just prior to closing with the gladius! Mechanics of disruption!

[@BouncingTribbles]

@@rugratrik part of the reason the pilum has two feet of metal is to stick into or through shields and then not be able to be broken off. The resulting weight would drag the shield down and potentially make them trip or discard the shield entirely. 24 feet is plenty of space for a bunch of soldiers to throw their spear and then brace their shield wall. They wouldn't be moving or adjusting position at this point, they've already decided where they will stand to take the charge Not to mention that the first couple ranks don't need to be throwing, javelins are volley weapons. If the first two ranks are braced with spears and shields the back ranks can almost do whatever they want. Short range is just over the heads of the front ranks, but the image of the front ranks forming columns and the back ranks doing running throws between the columns is badass. Just continuous volleys as half of each rank runs forward to throw, then jogs back into position.

[@floppiwaffle4200]

A wild Lindybeige has appeared!!

[@MacDorsai]

I'd love to see an interview with Michael on his feelings about throwing a pilum. He throws javelin as a sport, but in essence, this is the real thing. He's getting a feeling of what it would be like to throw a real javelin, something made for war, not sport. And if I heard it properly, you're bringing him back to be kitted out with mail and a shield, which could certainly affect how far he could throw, or possibly that was a shield and mail on a mannequin. Do both!. Get him hooked and you might have an addition to your crew of experts who work at really confirming history or busting myths. I know that I'd be looking for every opportunity to be involved if I were him.

[@robo5013]

Yes, for full context he needs to be wearing armor and carrying a shield as well. And a helmet. Of course it will affect his throws unless he's allowed to practice for a while in it to get used to it. Also would like to see if there is any difference in wearing Republican mail vs Imperial Segmentata.

[@wilhelmu]

@@robo5013 both hamata and segmentata were used in empire

[@robo5013]

@@wilhelmu Yes, I'm well aware of that. But the type of equipment changed from the Republic into the Empire.

[@thevillageblacksmith8550]

So many interesting theories and suggestions I hope to get to see them all tested

[@tl8211]

One point is that there were multiple types of javelins around. I think a lot of them were more similar to his modern sport javelin. Either way, I think it's clear that even with low technology, even relatively heavy javelins could be a quite long-ranged weapon in trained hands.

[@silmviburlane6411]

I like: - genuine enthusiasm in the topic - humble manner of communicating with the guest and the viewer - having a clear, thought-out manner of speaking - not trying to be funny, use catchphrases, imitate some other channels The best part - humility, making the video/channel not about you personally (which as a result makes you more likable)

[@CJLiveFromTheOutdoors]

Don't be too hard on yourself. Your explanation welded it all together! As a Roman history nerd, I appreciate the lengths you go to in replicating history and bringing us along. Thank you!!!

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and a pleasure

[@xgtwb6473]

Was funny him owning up to it too lol.

[@bl4cksp1d3r]

Every Legion would be proud to count Michael as one of theirs

[@Schizopantheist]

Michael's getting 40+ and talking about pressing the range out to 50m or above. That's very impressive and certainly not what I expected! Excellent practical research here!

[@AlanLamb11]

I expected 50+ but only with a running throw, that he was nearly getting to 40 from a standstill was surprising.

[@paristeta5483]

For a moment i read, he´s getting 40+ years of age (so is forty and above) and was wondering why spear throwing keep someone so young. Hope you are entertained too.

[@puddingpoppalpatine-6070]

Certainly was a fantastic surprise!

[@donjones4719]

I love that Tod got an expert at throwing a weapon like this, it gives a much better idea of the weapon's capabilities than winging it by himself or a convenient buddy. I'd like to know Michael's personal best with a javelin to compare to his 50m pilum potential. Different weights, different design, but I'm curious.

[@ZoonCrypticon]

@@paristeta5483 Yeah, I thought the same, but Michael Allison is born 2004 and now (2023) 19 years of age.

[@Paulsinke]

Being transparent about the process is part of what I love about this channel, thanks for all your work Tod!

[@tods_workshop]

Thank you

[@firelock9080]

Michael's accuracy with the 2,200 year old throwing weapon is simply amazing.

[@samwisefamgee]

The simple fact that he came so close (within a foot!) to the go-pro in two shots with a weapon of completely unfamiliar weight says it all. So does Tod's "I love working with professionals!" line XD

[@NibNa5ty]

Its a stick. People have been throwing sticks since there were people

[@lovelessissimo]

​@@NibNa5ty post a video of yourself doing it, since it's so easy.

[@nelocarbon3284]

​@@NibNa5ty I had to throw javelin at university because I study sports. You can't imagine how insanely difficult that is

[@elingrome5853]

Exactly! quite scary a few dozen young lads flinging these things in the ranks

[@jarrakul]

Very impressive to see Michael pick up a pilum for the first time and take about one throw to get the hang of it. That's a man who knows what he's doing.

[@somerandomguy4240]

Honestly I'd recon that anyone who trains with a javelin could do the same. There's really not much to it when you get the hang of the throwing technique.

[@Ms314159265358979323]

He looks like he knows his way around javelins 😉

[@merocaine]

It's throwing a stick man.

[@sagebauer1077]

Wow, seeing his throws with the pilum was awesome! Crazy accurate, I would not want to be across the battlefield from those!

[@bosseronny2225]

Honestly, much much more accurate than i expected

[@SuperFunkmachine]

The honesty is refreshing.

[@dougler500]

Wow! Awesome video. Loved seeing a real pro use one! The second throw I got chills from how perfectly that arced and landed. Nicely, nicely done Tod and Michael.

[@littlekong7685]

Yes! SO much better I think than having amateurs and archaeologists use them for generating numbers.

[@NobleKorhedron]

Some of those archaeologists are members of things ​like the #SCA, @@littlekong7685. So I would trust those who are a little more than those who are just interested due to their work...

[@littlekong7685]

@@NobleKorhedron And many are not, or were around before such societies were formed.

[@pronz72gh85]

This is experimental archeology. It responds to questions that all ancient history enthusiasts, reenactors and wargamers have had for a long time and it is free! Thank you a lot Tod and Michael 🎉

[@rogerdale5451]

I've never seen a javelin thrower up close. The stance, eyes on target, up on the toes, a magnificent physical muscular form, the whoosh sound. It's a bit of a thrill. Thank you.

[@gammon1183]

Agreed, incredible to watch 😎

[@handroids1981]

The ballet of power.

[@waynemongo]

Should of had top off!

[@kennethalbert4653]

​@waynemongo2882 you've gone too far !

[@waynemongo]

@@kennethalbert4653 to get the most accurate results it must be done nude then in mail and a tin hat.

[@docschro6847]

We can't always have Arrows vs Armour level of editing, but the quality of your information and excitement sharing what you've made and discovered is always great

[@arthipex8512]

Apparently, a soldier of Caesar's 10th legion managed to kill Titus Labienus horse under him with his pilum when he rode up to and taunted them during a lull at the battle of Ruspina. I imagine Labienus would have kept a sizable distance between himself and the enemy force, and just remained in shouting distance. This would confirm the fact that individual legionaries were indeed capable of throwing their pila pretty accurately over long distances - even after hours of fighting.

[@WillieBrownsWeiner]

Great point. I'd like to see him kitted up in lorica and a helmet. What he's describing at about 10:20 is muscle memory. Your average Legionary would have thrown these tens of thousands of times in training, developing the muscles, technique and muscle memory.

[@anthonybanderas9930]

Your imagination is quite wrong. According to Goldsworthy the Roman commanders tended to stand quite close to the frontline

[@wolfganghuhn7747]

But this was the 10th legion

[@Ghelasin]

@@anthonybanderas9930 Except he's talking about Titus riding up to and taunting *Hostile* troops, during a lull, he wasn't in his own battle line.

[@anthonybanderas9930]

@Gelasin "Labenius was riding up and down in the front line bare-headed, CHEERING ON HIS OWN MEN AS HE DID, and OCCASIONALLY addressing Caesar's legionaries..." p. 158 in The Roman Army at War 100BC -AD 200, Adrian Keith Goldsworthy. Clearly the extract shows that his primary objective was to boost his mens morale, while diminishing oponets morale was secondary. In the rest of the chapter Goldsworthy argues (and gives sources) that loitering around (behind) the frontline was the primary modus operandi of those in high command

[@GoDSkRiLLa69]

This is simply marvelous content. To watch a well trained and highly proficient sportsman applying his work to the real deal - working in tandem with a passionate and driven maker - is inexorably exciting. Well done! It seems he was having a great time too and that really rounded the whole thing out for me. Thanks for continuing to push in your own work, apply it in a very real way, and share it all with us. Please share our gratitude with Michael as well! I hope he hasn't had enough just yet; as I sure haven't seen enough from this duo!!!!

[@matthewhudson5685]

Imagine if there were hundreds, or thousands, of young men like him, hurling a storm of pilum at you. That alone must have been enough to break the bodies and morale of many barbarians.

[@cheyannei5983]

The power and grace Michael throws the pilum with is really awe-inspiring!

[@bjzaba]

You’re a craftsman through and through - I empathise a bunch with the frustration it causes when things don’t live up to your expectations. In spite of the challenges this was a great video and it seems like you learned a lot. Those throws by Michael were incredible!

[@tods_workshop]

Thanks and yes I love the fact that I learn stuff, rather than just doing something I have done before

[@hulkthedane7542]

Your enthusiasm alone makes these videos worth watching, Tod. It is SUPER interesting to see you gather specialists and get to know things. Keep it coming!

[@c567591]

The fact you admit your failures is one of your strengths in this arena. It makes it more authentic and you more relatable. I love these, keep em coming!

[@jonathanrobison9667]

Michaels athleticism and dedication to his art is impressive, may he have an awesome career ahead of him. Tods dedication to digging into history and doing the research is amazing. Both of them keep history alive in different ways.

[@thekameleon9785]

Here here!

[@jfruser]

Partway through the youtube video and I must say that there really is something about world-class athletes. The young man, when he throws, is a vision of grace in motion.

[@vivianevans8323]

That was a wonderful 'Tod Original" - not just because you got a professional to throw but because you're collecting the parameters to set up further testing. What fun! Don't worry about the edits, we lapped up every minute of all this!

[@Sypher474]

Very keen to see the upcoming tests. You did well editing this into a coherent narrative.

[@MrMpakobec]

I wonder if the crazy rotation that Michael can produce with his throwing technic will impact armor penetration capabilities. For better or for worse. Tods ballista can not replicate this and (even if i dont believe) it might impact realism of a test.

[@BillySugger1965]

That was amazing! Todd, it’s almost as if you’ve never made a video about an athlete throwing a pilum before. Come on man, give yourself a break. You are making history with these things, and Michael was the consummate professional in working with you. Thoroughly looking forward to seeing what he, and your machine, can do to mail covered manikin.

[@jaythewolf7216]

Michael Allison is pretty amazing. going out of his way and helping out. so cool, great person. hope they had fun hanging out want working with you.

[@aaronporterfield3456]

I love the fact that you humble yourself. The best trait a man can have is to when and admit his mistakes. I love your vids.

[@thormusique]

Great video, Tod! I thought Michael's point about not really overthinking the throw was an interesting one. This is actually how I was taught to do archery - what some would call 'intuitive' archery, where it's not really about getting a technically precise sight picture, but rather a sort of full-body feeling of what's required to make the shot. Anyway, I loved this, cheers!

[@tods_workshop]

That was pretty much the point I was getting at - I too shoot instinctively

[@maxjohnson1758]

I always have some skepticism for "intuitive" shooting or anything else. Any sort of real accuracy requires alignment of something.

[@thespanishinquisition9595]

I just love the sound the pilum makes when it gets thrown by Michael. There is definetly quite some energy transfered to the weapon.

[@MattyDove]

When I heard the woosh, I was like...Damn.

[@haydenduvall162]

Solid gold content, as always, Tod. The fact that this was edited from multiple shoots just adds flavour :)

[@darta1094]

"I love working with professionals". Indeed, great practical experiment and fantastically powerful and clean (every single movement is precise) Michael throws.

[@forlornfoe]

Never worry about the mistakes made, they are unavoidable in experimenting and also provide insight of their own. This is absolutely golden content and Michael is a great addition to the experimentation. Good thing too that he did not seem to mind it at all, the grin on his face when you showed the spear-thrower...

[@KingTrouser]

How do the Romans defeat enemy fruit? They pilum....

[@EriktheRed2023]

And if you order two beers in ancient Rome, you get five.

[@hansolowe19]

🙄

[@MrNarvanno]

Out

[@SomewhereInSiberia]

​@@EriktheRed2023 no, you will be kicked out of the tavern, dirty german barbarian! Homines probi vinum bibunt

[@bluegent7]

Epigenetics, adult role models, playing war from childhood, incredibly clever strategy, tactics and techniques, Roman discipline, the importance of conquest, the necessity of success for survival, make me inclined to think the legionaries were quite capable. So, having a modern pro trying it out may possibly give us a hint at how it might have been. This satisfied much of my curiosity around the pilum. Looking forward to more. My thanks, Tod!

[@tituslaronius]

I think the question we have to ask is not how can can legionary throw, but "how far can a legionary effectively throw in formation with all his kit?". We have to take in account that modern throwing is super different than throwing a pilum in full kit, with your shield in the other hand an all your buddies in tight formation around you. Great video, Tod ❤️

[@tods_workshop]

All very true and remiss of me to not mention the obvious range reduction from full kit

[@chengkuoklee5734]

Something like Bannerlord? "Soldiers! Loose formation! Fire! Shield wall!"

[@esoel]

I agree. Given Michael's performance I think 20/30 m could be realistic for soldiers in formation. You also probably don't want your worst performers to waste their pilums because you gave the order before the enemy got in their range. I think their shields even more than the armor that someone else mentioned would really make the throw much harder. Still, this is not a criticism, just an observation, the video was extremely interesting and surprising.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

Mind that Romans were disciplined soldiers used to formation tactics. It could very well be a "throwing formation" (where the Legionaries had 3m free space in front of them) followed by the "melee formation" when they were more packed. For the lateral space, even during combat Legionaries were probably at one arm distance.

[@NigelTolley]

I don't think the armour would make any difference to range. It was light and designed to not encumber.

[@thoughtful_criticiser]

Welcome to the big kid club Michael, it happens to the best of us eventually. Achieving it at your youthful age means that you will become one of our KZbin favourites after you bring home a Gold medal, if you want to! If not, you have really helped everyone understand what it took to throw a pilum. Thank you. Tod, far too hard on yourself, it worked out great.

[@93tiny08]

Michael Allison absolutely fantastic athlete, the ease at which he turns to this new medium is superb to see. Very impressive.

[@leepalmer3634]

I love this and everything you touch Tod! Tim Wells from USA is a ex javelin thrower and currently travels the world doing bow and spear hunting. I've talked with him and he's a cool guy. You should reach out to him

[@beepboop204]

🙃

[@andrewsock1608]

He is busy travelling the world

[@outandabout259]

I was wondering how he seems to throw so effortlessly, that explains a lot!

[@andrewsock1608]

@@outandabout259 who is “he” ?

[@MeanBeanComedy]

@@andrewsock1608 Tim Wells...

[@cepewka13]

thank you Michael for participating and showing of how far athlete could throw a pilum

[@kylodon]

The underlying story arc of Tod's hoodies slowly deteriorating has been just as entertaining to watch unfold as the actual videos! Love the content Todd and magnificent throws Michael!

[@岩男沢山]

This is the deeper story arc that unfolds across the episodes.

[@jamesclouse9947]

I'm new here but what you just said is this guy's content is as entertaining as watching fabric deteriorate

[@BiTurbo228]

Agreed! I judge the quality of a man by the degree of deterioration of their hoodies 😅 too pristine and you're spending too much time doing nothing! The exception to this is if you work with machine tools. Then tatty clothing loses limbs! 😳

[@岩男沢山]

@@BiTurbo228 Machine tools... brings a whole new dimension. Lathe accidents are not cool.

[@goofygrandlouis6296]

My thought when watching his videos, is usually : WHY ? 😊 Who thinks of building an automated-pilum-thrower in his backyard ?? !

[@robertscheinost179]

I hope you gave the thrower a go-pro for all the hard work he did for your video. He earned it!

[@simonnance]

Your self-awareness authenticity and honesty are as import to the validity of this as your curiosity and professional skill. I'd rather see a trustworthy, stitched together, piece than a stage managed perfect one of dubious authenticity.

[@valandil7454]

40 meter throw, wow that's scary especially if he can still be so accurate, I aim to be in or within a foot of my target too so nice one that's mega 😄

[@creepyunicornwithlazers3594]

So the whole reason for him coming over there was so that you could show him the machine that will replace him. Nice. :P

[@HereticalKitsune]

I love Tod's videos so much, all the enthusiasm and joy of learning something new, even if mistakes happen. They teach just as much if not more.

[@Thanaeon]

Yeah, it's so charming. I consider him a delightfully nerdy guy, and mean that entirely as a genuine compliment.

[@Hellserch]

Anyone following this channel is fascinated by how military weapons were possibly used in combat. The attention to detail and attempt to replicate ancient throwing techniques is excellent. Michael’s contribution cannot be denied: serious and playful. I deeply enjoyed this posting.

[@WessexBladesHandMadeKnives]

Michael's throws were very slick, my laughable efforts for Bath and Wansdyke was turning up late on my Honda scrambler, walking across the field and hoiking the 700 G (lime green if I remember) Javelin for either 44.7 or 47.4 Metres to win U19 still wearing my biker boots. To see him hurl a 1.3 kg Pilum with a sweet flight on his second throw was very impressive.

[@tanchyon]

Weird flex but ok

[@thechumpsbeendumped.7797]

I’m looking forward to seeing the tests on armour and shields. Remember that rubber loses some of its elasticity in cold weather.

[@earthknight60]

I suspect there is also a bit of a difference in how the flight is affected by pushing from the rear (the mechanical thrower) vs throwing from near the center of mass (human thrower).

[@mikeblair2594]

@@earthknight60 Damn, I didn't think about that. Good catch. It would be easy enough to rig the pili to to attach them at the center of mass.

[@tods_workshop]

If you watch the trajectory the hand thrown and machine thrown are pretty similar, so the target wont care

[@Chiller01]

@@tods_workshop Agreed. I’m certain a physicist could explain it better but if the flight path and the distance are equivalent then the same amount of energy is imparted to the spear by the machine and the human.

[@brennus01]

Well that was awesome. Thanks to Michael! Can you imagine if the legionaries could see what you're doing these days? I guess they would say, 'Thanks, Tod. You can go on along now. Michael, might we have a word?'

[@kevinfogle7929]

Todd, your channel is a treasure. It is both educational and entertaining. Thank you.

[@BadConeja]

Others have shared about pre-contact. These were used in primarily two ways. Having multiple and restock-able supply for that longer range harassment. In this case, the unit supports the advance of a more heavily armored unit that has shields (phalanx tactics). The other use was at the pre-contact moments. The phalanx would spread apart man by man to have gaps. The rear men would draw pila that throw at 15-25 feet, during an enemy charging (or just before the Romans’ make a charge). This tactic combines a more powerful baseball/football like throwing stance, but utilizes the running force of the enemy to maximize penetration and improve accuracy. As discussed, this also creates disruption, staggers the charge, and can even weaken the enemy resolve (overall casualties and the removing most aggressive combatants). A multi tactical/strategy weapon. Notable, in phalanx position the rear men would then use swords to still push through shield gaps at the enemy. Using the dynamic shield opening was a general technique in the Roman fighting toolkit. If you did test a modern thrower, you could further simulate the closer throwing distance by having two wooden screens/shields on either side of them. I’m not sure how that setup influences vision or how their body would adapt to that kind of throwing space during training.

[@DSlyde]

Michael is a heck of an athlete. I really hope he enjoyed the experience because it enlightening for us, both in terms of the data collected and his subjective experience on throwing.

[@capnstewy55]

About 4 years ago Matt Easton did some good videos throwing pila at short range into shields. I believe that is how I started watching his channel and by extention this one.

[@mikestonewoodforge5992]

This is great practical research. I discarded the idea that the pilum was designed to bend on impact after throwing a pilum around my yard and through half inch plywood. I’m amazed at the distance you were able to demonstrate. Looking forward to seeing your shield and armor penetration tests.

[@mgh7634]

I find it fascinating that even while bent, it's still usable and deadly. I suppose that makes sense, after all metal wasn't cheap and easy to replace, Roman soldiers were often marching far from home, and you probably would want a throwing weapon that could be used again and again if necessary rather than it be worthless after a single use, in case logistics trains are slow or cut off.

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

great video! I never even thought about getting a javelin thrower, let alone such a talented one! if he gets the time to come back it would be nice to see him toss one of the fletched javelins as well, I bet that would be amazing! great work as always Tod.

[@horscategorie]

This brings practical testing applied to theory. All of your tests have changed how we look at battles in history. That is a feat to be proud about!

[@crusader.survivor]

Michael is really having fun! I know because I've recently began my personal training of spear throwing. Constantly improving the distance and accuracy is a true motivator in spear throwing. My 'spear' is actually a modified 5-foot ground spike from the hardware store.

[@DRida64]

The 15-18 meter estimate was probably a pretty decent estimate, when factoring in the nerves of the battlefield, the legionnaire armor reducing flexibility, and the reduced arm length of a relatively shorter person of those times. Not discounting the tests, as Michael clearly did a great job. You even got testing to prove that temperature affects a javelin throw. I'm just thinking about other factors. There's probably even more factors I cant think of that might decrease (or even increase) a throw distance.

[@Sibula]

That, and an athlete who is dedicated to javelin specifically could be expected to throw farther than a soldier who has to do all kinds of other things.

[@DRida64]

@@Sibula good point! Specialization could be a factor.

[@another3997]

​@@Sibula Just like armed forces today, we know that certain troops specialised in a particular type of weapon. The Romans learned to integrate a large variety of weapons in to their armies, and certainly knew how to take best advantage of each. Like today, the standard infantry would probably train to use a couple of weapons adequately, but would not be ultra proficient. Their strength was in the large number of well coordinated troops using well rehearsed tactics. Specialists would probably adapt their armour to make their job easier.

[@Sibula]

@@another3997 As far as I know the pilum isn't really a usable main weapon, but everyone had a couple on them. This was almost like comparing an infantryman and a baseball pitcher to see how far you could throw a hand grenade.

[@steemlenn8797]

My thoughts also. I think you should be able to throw one at 18m, one at close range and grab your sword just in time to stab those who weren't hit if you train that for a while. That's not to say that legionairies never threw farer, but that feels like the most effective use to counter an enemy attack wave.

[@jorenbosmans8065]

This was awesome to see. I hope we get to see more of Michael throwing pilums and other weapons. I am surprised with how fast he could get these very nice throws.

[@tomtruesdale6901]

What a great video Tod, really looking forward to watching the testing videos following this one. Michael was a champ for working with you and now has a few really cool stories for his teammates.

[@JanWaltVesely]

This is awesome. From what i know about Pilum, is that it used to be (at least some time) a "shock trick" move. When enemy was too close for regular ranged units. It was used for not "drop down" hits but for direct throw to enemy faces from short distance, to use their movement speed to increase the impact power, well i mean the consequence of that impact force. One point was to disable enemy shields or cause casualities on not shielded enemy so they fall and slow down rest of enemy's.

[@DrTarrandProfessorFether]

Notas from LEGIO II AVG, COH V. We are a California Reenactment club. We let public throw our lances…. But not our Pilum…. They bend after a few throws Out best guy can throw a lances (2meters wood with 450 g iron tip 30 cm tip)… 18 mm wood… about 40+ meters but no aim, goes here and there. I can throw 20 meters with a very good accuracy. This guy is pretty good.

[@andrewsmith9174]

Todd, love the experimentation. Here is an idea that I’ve not seen before: get a team of javelin throwers and have them make a group throw at static man-sized targets and moving targets (coming toward the throwers at a maneuver pace (we know that the Hollywood charging at the enemy wasn’t the norm, but paced maneuvering of groups was done). Seeing that would be incredible.

[@euansmith3699]

5:28 The video cuts away from Michael explaining the finer points of spear throwing, to Tod on the set of the new Mad Max film; "Witness me!" These videos are always so much fun, and so inventive and informative. I like how Tod uses arrows stuck in the ground as markers 😄 The "whoosh" of Martin throwing the pilum is very impressive.

[@kleinjahr]

Nicely done. It would be interesting to see how he does in full legionnaires kit.

[@arturoroldan4839]

Thats a thing I would like to see. Having a big scutum while throwing this would be definitely uncomfortable. Also, in case they used segmentata, how annoying would be the shoulder guards of that type of armor be while throwing it.

[@Mrvanderspank]

The things that causes you to "mess up" videos and such is also the reason why you're so great, this channel wouldn't be this fantastic without those "faults"

[@hefeibao]

Don't ever apologize about the editing. This is all part of the fun of exploration. What an awesome video!

[@MattsGreatHall]

Love these experiments!!!

[@Erikreaver]

What a lovely video. And I love how you acknowledge your own mistakes and perhaps not thinking things true, puts an element of genuine...ness? Either way, fantastic to see an athlete have a go, and I greatly look forward to seeing more on this topic and others! Always a treat when I see a vid from you.

[@johneden2033]

Fantastic video! You're doing incredible work for the field of reconstructive archeology and HEMA. One thing I would like to point out, is that for any ranged weapon, there is a difference between its maximum and effective range. While a trained thrower might be able to launch a pilum to 50m giving all they got, the practical range of hitting moving or point targets would be shorter, especially within the confines of a tight formation. Because Legionnaires carried a scutum with their pila, I wonder if Michael would be willing to hold a scutum (or substitute) and throw the pila from a standing position. That might give us a more practical range and power for the weapon. Maybe within the context of its practical application, a range of 20m is more realistic given the situation the weapon would have been used in.

[@steemlenn8797]

I aslo think that the 18m mentioned at the start are more likely the battlefield release distance. You want as many as possible to hit. At 50m the enemy has 3 seconds to react. They could just stop and all the pilums would land in front of their feet. I can imagine that if you are trained, you can do a throw at 20m, another at 10m and grab your sword and stab those who survived the rain. Who should also be now not come as a wall but a lot more spread up because some got hit or jumped backwards or had to throw away their shield.

[@brolohalflemming7042]

@@steemlenn8797 I wonder if any of this could be extrapolated from any surviving training or tactical manuals. So how much time a legionnaire would be expected to spend training with pilums. Or I guess how they'd be expected to throw and expected engagement ranges. I guess given the discipline, it'd either be thrown from standing, or maybe 3-5 paces then throw, but that would seem like it'd make managing and dressing formations more challenging.

[@MattyDove]

@@brolohalflemming7042 In addition, I imagine that they men would of also held games amongst themselves on a regular basis to pass the time. Even if it was just some drunk betting on who could throw the furthest or most accurate.

[@brolohalflemming7042]

@@MattyDove I think we need more science! My father was from Chester, and a historian so I was raised on tales of the Chesire archers. In which I learned that places like St Mary's Butts wasn't something to giggle about, but part of our ancient reserve training. So I guess it could be interesting to do something similar. Create a historically accurate training plan, call for age-appropriate volunteers and track progress. It might also be interesting to also have a group that follow a modern javelin training regime. I guess the results would be skewed by differences in diets and general population variations, eg ban the Dutch because on average, they tend to be taller than modern Italians. There may also be legal complications given spears are probably considered offensive weapons now across what once was the Roman Empire. (now I'm wondering if there were recorded differences between Rome's African and other legions given some African populations tended to be taller/longer limbed than Italians as well)

[@ptonpc]

Part of the charm of your videos is watching the discovery process as you work things out, come up with ideas etc, so no need to apologise. I loved the smash edit around the 5:20 mark.

[@solandri69]

I'm surprised and impressed by the aerodynamics on these. They maintain nose up attitude during most of the flight, giving them the most lift possible. And as they start dropping, the nose drops down at the perfect angle to spear the target.

[@BobT36]

lol don't worry about the editing, Todd! Bit of perfectionism there. :D It's fine. Tbh though that actually worked out regarding the "cold" thrown, learned something there! The Romans would have absolutely been cold some days too. Also holy shit, the accuracy of those throws vs the Gopro. I'd have thought these would just be lobbed in the general area of the enemy, but you could totally target a specific dude here. Imagine 2 or 3 romans all lobbing these at you and them coming SO close lol.

[@simonmoorcroft1417]

Great effort Tod! An important factor to consider is how the legionary is dressed. A Legionary throwing a Pilum in action is wearing body armour, a helmet, pugio and gladius. I imagine that encumbrance and especially the armour over the shoulder and upper arm may effect the throw. I imagine the lorica segmentata's shoulder armour could be a bit awkward when throwing. May be good to see if your professional 'legionary' is effected by encumbrance on his upper arms and torso when spear chucking.

[@tods_workshop]

Yes agreed - not mentioning this was an oversize as it would clearly make a material difference

[@simonmoorcroft1417]

@@tods_workshop It's certainly a factor, but to offset it I would say that a Legionary would be used to hurling a pilum whilst encumbered in such a manner. They may also be stronger than a modern athlete. Afterall an experianced Legionary would be used to daily physical labour and route marches. If a real Legionary panoply and kit is not available this could be somewhat simulated for example with a hockey helmet and shoulder pads, a weighted satchel over one shoulder and a weighted tool belt.

[@rat_datboi2185]

At 7:30 you hear that clear sound of the throw. Imagine a few hundred being thrown. :O

[@gam3rjae330]

I have no idea how I got here, but your enthusiasm and love for what you do made me stay.

[@risingforce9291]

Shoutout to Michael as well. Wishing him an amazing career in his chosen sport.

[@theamericancristero7390]

I've always wondered how well the pila could counter missle infantry, especially since I've heard (but not seen evidence for) Roman heavy infantry carrying slings; If the Pilum couldn't counter archers and was only a preparation weapon for melee engagements (or inprovised Hasta against cavalry, as Caesar used against Pompey,) then the sling would be necessary for an organic ranged capability to the heavy infantry cohort. Furthermore it's notable that Syrian Archer Auxiliary units were valued in the Levant, considering how badly Crassus did against the Parthians with their heavy emphasis on horse archery.

[@MrDwarfpitcher]

Crassus did bad mostly due to having given the enemy the choice of where to fight though. Deep in enemy territory, desert climate in the middle of nowhere in which mobility is key. He also vastly underestimated his foe. If Crassus used proper tactics and strategy, then he would have been fine. But credit where credit is due The Parthians understood that they should crush the romans so badly that they could not properly learn from their mistake for a while. Suddenly, an army was just gone and it took years for them to get the information of what happened

[@mnk9073]

Bows in those days, for the most part, packed a lot less of a punch than in the later centuries which means all those big shields did a pretty decent job against them. See Crassus' defeat for example, the horse archers were pelting his square FOR HOURS and most casualties came from exposed limbs and sheer time and volume of "fire". That's also the reason for the slings, contrary to modern beliefs, a stone or even more so a lead ball that deforms on impact from a sling is much more effective against a helmet than an arrow because so much more force is transferred. Add to that, that ammunition literally litters almost every battlefield, training is fast and cheap and slings provide a bigger reach than bows. Explains why only the most dedicated specialists went for the bow.

[@mandowarrior123]

Slings and probably staff slings were common in the legionaries, i know of one fort in the UK sieged by i believe legionary slingers. Only heard a historian talk about it i don't know their evidence. Javelins are especially effective thrown at a cavalry charge too, as the extra relative speed is much more meaningful than arrows. 50% faster javelin equivalent is a lot of force. Bows and slings are still most effective at short range. By denying 30-50 metres you're reducing their effectiveness and freedom to skirmish massively. So even unthrown they do counter other missiles. Also, javelins were a common ranged weapon at the time. You're right its main purpose is alpha strike, to even the odds both before and during a melee. I suspect pila were held back at the rear ranks until the melee press as they would become unblockable and potentially penetrate several men/heads, particularly when they used a heavy and light version. Legionaries were expected to defeat stronger and more numerous enemies through tactics and training after all.

[@steemlenn8797]

@@mandowarrior123 I think we should also not understimate the easines of use. It takes only a few days of training to be a reasonably good spear thrower, and a bit of rain doesn't make it useless, as could happen with bows and strings. Not to mention the other uses. A stick with a sharp end is a surprisingly useful thing to have in a battle and on the way to it.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

Pila against missile infantry would be useless, because said missile infantry wasn't tightly packed but in loose formation whereas a maniple or cohort was probably too tightly packed to allow everybody to lauch their pilum. That is before considering range disadvantage. IIRC, Caesars infantry countered Pompejus' cavalry with real spears, but legionaries definetly used pila as ad hoc spears at Alesia to hold the line. Actually the secondary use of a pilum as spear makes a lot of sense because only the first two rows in a clash could actually engage the enemy hand to hand. But the third row could use pila as spears to poke some eyes and noses.

[@shotgunwound]

Put him in some Legionary armour, try and model the conditions

[@beepboop204]

🙃

[@poolpulse3447]

I believe that the tests in Winter Clothing simulate armour to a certain extent... Not exactly, but close..

[@beepboop204]

@@poolpulse3447 a winnipeg winter? or a London winter? 🙃

[@johnssmith4005]

@@poolpulse3447 Also the fact that he is still young and not a battle hardened Vet who is very familiar with the Pilum makes the results pretty close

[@ZeckKoa]

amazing research. Dont beat yourself up over the editing. It was perfect! I love the passion of the indepth investigation of the Pilum. Such a wierd weapon no other army in history cared to use but obviously worked.

[@DH-xw6jp]

I adore your whole concept of making "mechanical professionals" that allow you, as the weapons maker, to test the weapons with repeatability and accuracy at the levels of a pro without needing to risk injury to them. First the Lockdown Longbow, now the Javelin SlingShot.

[@tods_workshop]

Surely, first the Lockdown Longbow and now the Post-Covid Chucker?

[@DH-xw6jp]

@@tods_workshop and that is why i should leave the naming to professionals like you.

[@douglasfranklin9701]

this is a really good video that made my brain fire late at night, so thank you for that! ;) 1) all the books I read about legion tactics (admittedly years ago) was that they used the pilum from a mostly stationary formation to break up the follow-up line. if the legionaries were in formation, with the front line set to receive the charge or maintaining formation, and the back line(s) tossing pilum over their buddies, the back lines are probably not running. 2) it sort of makes sense that the center of balance would be further back from the tip. boxers & fighters are told to punch through their target. backing the center of balance off the pointy end should drive the pointy end deeper onto the target.

[@Geenimetsuri]

Fantastic video despite your downplaying! Kudos to Michael too! Getting a pilum to fly past 40 is an incredible achievement....and the control & precision!

[@archaeologistify]

This is one of the best educational and curiosity driven channels on YT

[@Critter145]

Once you give the proviso about making a mistake, no need to keep apologizing. It’s not like your viewers have never made mistakes…. Best from Tennessee.

[@oldegrunt]

love that caveat about getting excited and starting something BEFORE totally thinking it through...that's my life in a nutshell!

[@rockjockchick]

This was legit awesome. Thank you for getting an expert and testing what was really possible! Far better than conjecture!

[@ianbruce6515]

Tod--its so wonderful that you do all this proper testing! Since I was a kid I read all sorts of speculation about Ancient weaponry-- (particularly about Agincourt)--but it was all pretty fanciful--people who had little or no data arguing with other people who had little or no data! The internet just carried on in the same vein--some experimentation, but often very sketchy. Then you came along and did some very serious testing! Thank you!

[@nothing4mepls973]

A big thank you to both of you! Watching a pro at work is always amazing, thanks so much for showing us how it's done!

[@Stan7670]

Very cool video. What I read was that one of the purposes of the pilum is that when it is thrown at an enemy with a shield, when it gets stuck in the shield, the shield becomes useless.

[@silvialogan9226]

This young guy Michael did a very good job at throwing eh javelin. He is just excellent.

[@onionman2117]

You just have to love the dedication to complete these experiments. Thank you

[@Vincentofvega]

Fantastic watch. Your undiminished enthusiasm to explore these utterly fascinating topics of debate from history is something very special. Thank you.

[@unnaturalselection8330]

I think we can all appreciate this man's dedication to getting precise information on what the EXACT capabilities of historical arms and armor were. Much respect.

[@tods_workshop]

Thank you

[@unnaturalselection8330]

@@tods_workshop No, sir. Thank YOU.

[@nigelsheppard625]

As a Legionary he would be throwing with a Scutum (Shield) in his left hand. He'd have had very different posture. Michael is incredibly graceful, like a dancer. It was very interesting watching a professional athlete playing the role of a killing machine throwing a precision instrument in such an artistic way.

[@leoscheibelhut940]

Fantastic! I look forward to seeing Michael Allison throw again after he practices!

[@AlexRochette]

Dude is a Physics major! 😁👍 I like his analytical approach to the throw.