Tierlisting different parts of game development

[@samodylan.gamedev]

My favorite part is fantasizing all day about how good my game will be, then going to sleep with no work done.

[@LoafSimulation]

Most honest indie game developer

[@sinkingdutchman7227]

I may be weird, but occasionally, I actually enjoy bugfixing. It's the one time in the dev prcess where it's clear as day what the end result should be.

[@ТарасФітьо-м7д]

Nice way to look at it, makes it actually more interesting and less boring

[@TheRopiak]

Listen I know I'm weird but programming soothes me. I like automating things at work, I like making a robot do things I don't want, and I like making blueprints more then 3d models or levels lol. Love you guys and your videos!

[@alessandr_0]

Yes, our favorite Tier Listing Channel is so back!

[@HalfDrankOJ]

I'm mostly a programmer, but I don't really like it. What I DO like, is doing a bunch of coding, then hitting the play/run button and seeing the code I wrote actually work. So I'd actually say that QA/bug fixing might be one of my favorite parts of game dev. Also nothing beats having someone else play your game and actually have fun with it. All of that easily makes up for the lack of fun programming is imo. Great video!

[@CartrKillsGrunt]

Audio guy here, y’all missed sound design, music, and audio implementation! As much as it pains me I definitely understand how it’s overlooked but I’ve always said since it’s half of the sensory output of a game it deserves more thought.

[@fearingalma1550]

Absolutely! I can forgive a game for a lot if the soundtrack is a banger.

[@LoafSimulation]

I haven't seen the full video yet but yes the sound design part is overlooked, Imagine playing a horror game on mute

[@Trianull]

I would have to agree as someone whose projects often begin with a soundtrack. I'd give it a B since while sound is very important and composing is really fun, scouring sound libraries for SFX can be agonizing.

[@LoafSimulation]

@@Trianull I felt like the whole purpose of this video is pointless, I consider every part in a video game is important.

[@mandisaw]

Definitely needs a Pt 2 - I'd put sound design in that half

[@thelionszen3352]

I love programming and debugging. when you finally get it right, it's like scratching an itch on your back you couldn't reach

[@Disfixional]

1. I'd think programmers and artists honestly can't live without each other in terms of gameplay and engagement. Artists like "pretty thing is nice", programmers like thinking about (and implementing) mechanics. The drawback if they don't balance each other out, artists can focus too much on the pretty and forgetting everything else, and programmers can go too far into high concept mechanics that end up making sense only in their head but not to anyone else. 2. Nah, nah. As an artist rocks are a palette cleanser between cool assets. A chance to sit down, sculpt some natural, simple shapes, take a breath, and clear your head to charge for the next big hero asset.

[@BartMamzer]

I love debugging. It's like solving a puzzle!

[@mandisaw]

Nothing beats that rush when you've solved a problem that's been headache-inducing for days. When I was in-office, a great bugfix was grounds for breaking out snacks & drinks lol

[@graydwarf22]

I like debugging when I can solve a problem quickly. Otherwise, it generally becomes a massive amount of dread because it shines a giant spotlight on what is likely to be a major design complexity problem. Debugging your way into realizing you need a massive refactor is a major game killer for me. Sometimes feels like game dev is about having the skill (and luck) to avoid the majority of mines on the minefield.

[@mandisaw]

@@graydwarf22 Most bugs don't require a massive design or architectural change. You might want to either 1- give some more time to thinking through your approach before starting to code, or 2- consider multiple possible solutions to your bug problem, and choose the one that resolves it with the least disruption. Basically you're developing the skills to be more strategic and surgical in your development. In the beginning it may seem like it's taking longer, but you'll get better with practice. Then you can knock out bugs without blowing up your whole codebase.

[@JulienBertozzi]

Sounds like you need two axis :)

[@vast634]

The first thing I look at in a Steam page is the screenshots, and then the trailer - usually skipping to the middle to skip the boring intro, I want to see gameplay. Only then I would bother looking at the text or scrolling down.

[@SuperDutchrutter]

You should consider tier listing with a grid format where each axis is one component of the discussion. For this video for example the x axis could be the "fun factor" and the y axis could be how important it is to the process.

[@mandisaw]

Not a tier-list but a 4-quadrant-chart - low-to-high effort vs low-to-high impact - this makes a lot more sense!!

[@ArcadeNestGames]

There needs to be two tier lists. One for Fun other Importance. Localization is important but least fun, Idea is both fun and important

[@doneFG]

Would you not actually consider Programming higher? I would think its S tier personally because I do believe that you need to be able to fix bugs and issues even after release. I do prefer using Assets to make games, save time and get games out there faster I guess.

[@mandisaw]

Feel like they need separate ranks for how easy or hard a task is, vs how important to the final game. Or be more explicit about these being value-for-cost / ROI ranks.

[@Grant6243]

it seems like most things should be higher than they are, imo. UI Design is huge, if the UI is clunky or confusing it can make or break an entire game even if the rest is solid. If it takes you longer to figure out the UI than a core game mechanic or feels like crap to enter/exit menus etc, you're unlikely to stick around long enough to even experience the rest of the game.

[@mandisaw]

For Pt 2, I'd add porting, shaders (or aesthetics), sound design, market research (or marketing in general), and support. That last doesn't get talked about at all in indie-dev spaces. But it's important if you want ppl to recommend the game to friends, and come back for your next game. They need to have their questions answered & bugs fixed, maybe get some freebies like extra art or side stories.

[@morgan0]

concept art, texturing, importing and setting up models

[@superbtelevision]

Systems programming is my favorite parts of game dev. I love the way it feels to create a mechanic and then experience it in action. One if the few ways you get to enjoy your own game as a developer

[@TheVisualDigitalArts]

Im an 3d artist first but I still find programming addicting Programming is an art in itself.

[@timithius7885]

I'd love to know what your guys thoughts are on Game Design Documents, how much time do you allocate for writing them? Or have you guys got your own style of project planning? Level Design is my favorite part of game dev - I find it very relaxing and it helps me tune in to my creativity, especially as I improve and learn how to do more and more :)

[@Fustercluck06]

Great list guys, I found it really useful as an inspiring dev. Don’t forget story, that’s S tier for sure!

[@TravisBerthelot]

I like programming when it pays. Programming is work, but is the best work I know of. I have written millions of lines of Java code and less that half was for an immediate paycheck. Debugging and Testing are the best and worst of times. I don't consider other things to be real work as they are not the main task. Spending a day creating descriptions, trailers, or screen shots for a game that has 200+ hours of coding is not a big deal.

[@gameboardgames]

This solo dev: favorite thing to work on is ideas and design. Least favorite is UI. Most of the pain though for UI comes from Ui in Unity for controllers, which seems way more painful than it needs to be. My inventory system using Unity's 'new' input for a controller was really painful, had to map dozens of buttons and figure out a bunch of stuff. A keyboard/mouse UI would be a piece of cake compared.

[@mandisaw]

It's usually easier to think about how you'd navigate the UI on paper, before you start coding. If you want, you can even use a mockup design tool like Figma, Canva, or Adobe XD to block out what-goes-where, and figure out a design that is intuitive to navigate. Coding the actual UI comes next-to-last (then testing is actually last).

[@gameboardgames]

@@mandisaw That's good advice and actually did play with Figma for a bit, but my particular issue was not with the design but the controller interface. As a newish Unity guy I thought using Unity's 'new' controller module input system for interfaces was the way to go but it is meant for mouse or touchscreen basically, so to use ui buttons with the controller takes a lot of navigation headaches and stuff. Eventually I used the great Rewired asset and found that I shouldn't even have been using Unity's UI controls which are centered around buttons. It's just all wonky and made the mistake of making the UI early when I should have made it near the end instead.

[@mandisaw]

@gameboardgames Hmm, "new" Input system basically trades quick & easy for an ultimate-flexibility approach. Basically it separates the input that your code sees from the actual input device. Your game doesn't need to know (or care) how the player is sending commands, only what specific commands are called. Rewired is fine, it's kind of doing the same thing as the Input system, just for money, and it only supports the common device-types that its creator built in. Main advantage of Unity's system is that if you want to add or change support for basically any kind of input paradigm in future, you can just post a file on your server, and players can install it at runtime (or you can add it to your build as a patch). Better for accessibility, multi-platform release, long-term console support, etc. But agreed that it's more complicated to get going with. [Edit - Thomas actually did a whole Input System tutorial here, maybe a month or 6wks ago. It was really good! Samyam also had a nice intro to the Input System for beginners over on her channel, maybe a year or more ago. Recommend taking a look, if only to compare and see what works best for you.]

[@gameboardgames]

@ Thanks for these great tips 🍻

[@mandisaw]

@@gameboardgames No prob! 🤠

[@suspecm6316]

My favorite part is balancing and bugfixing. Some bugs can make me tear my hair out of course, but when I'm dealing with small bugs in the game, that usually means I'm mostly done and I am polishing what I have. Polish may not feel like progress but it elevates good games into great games. Balancing is just fun for me. I like tinkering with the numbers and in general, if the numbers are right, it can open up the game to be playable in so many different ways with the same mechanics.

[@seamusoblainn]

Level design is an art 🎉

[@AdeelTariq0]

I'd say playtesting is as important as the idea. Like it can help improve the idea too. And maybe t can even change the direction of the game, make it more appealing marketing wise etc. Depends on the stage of development too but I'd say do it as early as possible.

[@caffeine8900]

I model for hours and hours non-stop. I would break it down a bit though. I actually think texturing is more important than modeling. It's a much more efficient way to create a new look. You can take a premade model which took someone days to make and retexture it an afternoon into something totally different. It's a fast way to create unique art.

[@faraguay3d]

I would say UI and 3D modelling (in case you're doing a 3D game, that is) need to be at least equal if not have 3D above UI... 3D is not just modelling some buildings in Blender. 3D is modelling, texturing, shading, animation, lighting, post processing in the game engine... Basically, it defines the look of your game. If you don't consider this section important, it's clear that you don't care about "selling" your game visually speaking. In this case, why bother with a nice UI (not to be mistaken by UX, which is of course almost as important as the game mechanics/gameplay). This is just my opinion and I might be wrong, of course. Also, I'm a 3D artist so don't take my word for it :).

[@AaronGwynaireGameDev]

I have found being primarily a 3D artist myself, I have spent soooo much more time with modelling than the programming / construction of the game. I use blender and it’s what I really love. Being a solo game dev I do everything, but Visionaire is fantastic for those who don’t really like programming like myself lol. I seem to get so much done in Visionaire though in a shorter period of time. But the 3D design is insanely time consuming for sure. I have some dev logs exploring both areas of this work for my game :)

[@alienandrei]

Depending on the game, animation can have a big impact on how the game feels. Platformers need good jumping and movement, etc...

[@mfassett]

I think your results exposed a flaw in your criteria for your ranking - basically that fun and importance can be diametrically opposed, which ends up in a list where you have no S tier items, and no F tier items - it's all squished between A and D. I would have preferred to see a tier list based on what's most important to your final game. Who cares, really, about how fun it is, since it's all fun to one person or other (I happen to really like making interfaces).

[@graydwarf22]

semi-interesting topic but highly subjective based on role/project (as always). You guys are clearly coming at it with dev biases. For example, I challenge the idea of ranking the creation of ART lower simply because you didn't have to do it and don't want to do it. Artists enjoy the process about as equivalent as a dev enjoys coding. Some things are fun to do and other things are a tiring grind. Both are just transitioning ideas/tasks into useable objects. Feels like this category could be more accurate if broken down a bit more (by role, fun, difficulty, roi, etc). As always, one of your many fellow (half-Dutch) critics, cheers!

[@user-cw7yi1ew1z]

I can smell the hate that will come. Guys they are not saying art is not important. They are just saying there is shortcuts and art has a low efficiency/time ratio.

[@dzjin]

I guess you guys don't make games with sound

[@Location_unknown_studio]

I love every part of making the game

[@Whalester]

Concept art? Feel like it doesn't fall under the "idea" phase, because its more about looks. Also shout out to all the audio people that feel shafted.

[@SvargasName]

DaVinci Resolve is so unbelievably good.

[@tejastjs9981]

Like marketing, Good idea is just a multiplier. If you don't have any skills/money no one takes the idea seriously. I would not put it so high above other skills like art and programming.

[@jokerpb4778]

You need to normalize this tierlist

[@vtange_eng]

I use Blender and I agree it’s D tier. 3D games can easily be much more time consuming to create assets for than 2D since you have to work with rigging, UVs, lighting etc. a lot of game ideas can be implemented without Blender, you have to be certain that your idea (and audience) demands a 3D artstyle to make it viable Blender itself though, being free and open source, S tier

[@Dracolichizm]

As someone who works in Dev I would put QA/testing one slot higher. Like you said its an S+ tier but does not get the recognition it deserves and anyone who has played a bug ridden mess can attest to that...

[@user-cw7yi1ew1z]

How can ı find this video? 17:00

[@AndreyVertoletov]

1-2 days for character 3d model?) it is lightning fast compared to some large production where model can take several months.

[@a6gittiworld]

I like the copy and paste part of programming

[@Visnii]

15:37 honestly, I feel that the long description just needs to have gifs and be well constructed to look professional, the content itself…. meh its just in case the player scrolls to the reviews section, so he thinks its made by professionals

[@АндрейРодин-х9ь]

WHERE IS SOUND DESIGN?

[@Mefrius]

4:07 - games like Gris exist

[@mandisaw]

Clearly there's a market segment for those pretty, but simple-gameplay games. Lack of visual UI is actually advanced UI design 😅

[@jonassackarndt1174]

I hate about getting and developing an idea that i can't prototype as fast as i can change my mind. Drifting off into "lets just make it realistic" lamd is painful. Programming is more fun since my programming fails usually tend to show me optional features. Still there are moments that justaren't enjoyable like when the syntax description is more confusing than helpful, but other stuff is real fun. Arts and blender. Can honestly be really fun but knowing you have to do so much more... It is such a slowcprocess. Sound design... Yeah, what a nice little rabbit hole. Just lost a whole week over learning how to make a shot go pew. Still feels great Level design- fun and games, why wouldn't we love it. Also setting up rules for procedural generation is nice. Debugging. Never tried or see it as a part of programming. Trailer. Never tried. Steam page. Never tried. Localisation. No. God no. Please no. Go for english, then everything else comes after a certain number of Downloads.

[@mandisaw]

"Facing a firing squad is the best time to think about ideas, because you really should be worried about the execution" ~ TerribleWritingAdvice in a recent vid 😅

[@KindSparkdev]

Ok, but like, let me lie to myself.

[@etherealswordsman3214]

story writer here

[@fgc_7433]

But I love putting on my music and losing myself in my Modeling.

[@gamerji-li4755]

Programing is the fun part xD biased as a primary programmer lol

[@caffeine8900]

I will say art is definitely more important than D tier. There are exceptions to the rule. But good art is just like your hook only visual. Successful indie games have made millions of dollars because they are instantly visually marketable. The chance of that happening is low but without good art--as an indie or solo dev--you will never reach that level of success.

[@_nickthered]

Omg! You don't have to believe me. I love programming. Reach out if you want some help.

[@seamusoblainn]

Art is time consuming. Ive been going and back with a pro artist for a year and a half and ive a good artist sense

[@virtual_graphics]

Boy, I really disagree with you on the 3D modeling. Having great looking 3D cudtom characters go a long way. Show me one top tier game that doesn't have it's own custom model? Btw... this is a rethorical question...

[@bitemegames]

But you know how hard it is and how long it takes to make said great looking 3D characters? Sure it can be worth it, but getting to the point where custom characters outperform just getting an asset pack takes a long time. -M

[@virtual_graphics]

@bitemegames i totally get that so I mix custom models with asset packs. Works out great with good art direction. But without the USP of original characters it's very hard to break out ot the indie slush. Just saying... if you want to uplevel, my money would be on OG models over mechanics.

[@mercai]

Thomas Was Alone.

[@virtual_graphics]

@@Imhotephp i guess but how does this relate to this thread?

[@virtual_graphics]

@@Imhotephp not too worried about the competition part. They make very different games and I'm of the art director and storyteller side which campions personal vision. They cand what they choose and we all can do what we choose.

[@holacabeza]

Pooping: easy S tier fam

[@gendalfgray7889]

Who doesn't love to lay a fat kraken during game development

[@johnnylollard7892]

Realistic doesn't mean no unique art style. That's absurd.

[@jaredcramsie182]

It kind of does, but that's because there's two different abstraction levels to it. Realism is constrained by the appearance of reality. If you imagine all the different variations that exist in a style like 'Cartoon' (head size, level of squash and stretch, line thickness, chosen palette colours, etc.), then reality has no axis for variations at that level. However, if we look at real life architecture, we can see that there is variation and style by region. In that sense there is a unique art style that can be incorporated at a more general level. Some examples could include: Varying how claustrophobic the environment feels, the ambient light level, the types of people, buildings and foliage, the non-diegetic elements like UI, and the amount of focus given to specific aspects (like those simulator games that have a ridiculous attention to detail for one thing - like cars or trains).

[@jaredcramsie182]

TLDR: It is like the difference between an animated film and a live-action one.

[@vast634]

UI design is by far the worst part of game development.

[@AndreyMakarov-i7h]

Making games is a giant waste of time, just so you can waste your players time and money.

[@FatalExit]

I guess this explains why your games look so ugly, go figure. Also completely discrediting role of audio folks in gamedev. 💀

[@bitemegames]

Watch till the end broski. Also, I checked out your itch.io, I really don't think you should voice an opinion when it comes to how our games look. -M

[@davidsvezhintsev3073]

It doesn't take THAT much time / effort to make a good looking game. It's all about art direction, and you can make it great, so if it isn't, of course 10 hours of making texture isn't gonna solve your problems, lol. Audio is essential tool for juice!

[@mandisaw]

Nah, they said from the start this is Pt 1 of 2. People literally go to video game music concerts, and have an emotional reaction to remixed 8bit chiptunes like it's Proust's madeleines. Nobody's belittling sound design here.

[@cadenatkinson6012]

Damn bro, no need to be rude. Keep your chin up

[@TESkyrimizer]

​@@davidsvezhintsev3073 art direction is pretty hard in my experience. im an artist but game art style is quite different from drawing a single item.

[@mrserlysir]

first

[@flymacseamus3474]

Animation