Tiger II | Too Little Too Late?

Today we are going to have a deep dive into this beatiful vehicle! The Year is 1944 and the heaviest tank which saw service in World War 2 is about to make its debut and the name of this vehicle is the Tiger 2 also known as the Sd.kfz.182, the Tiger 2 is generally seen as one of the most magnificent and menacing vehicles ever created by humans, and I myself have had the pleasure of encountering one of these impressive vehicles in Belgium and it leaves quite the impression. And even 79 years after its debut people still talk about this vehicle, today we are going to have a dive into the Tiger II and investigate why the tiger II by some is regarded as one of the best tanks of World War 2.
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[@raulduke6105]

First!

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

Pin of speed! You were even faster than my discord notification bot! Haha

[@prichards5113]

Just a quick point on the power of the KT main gun is not just the extra barrel length but is from the use of a much larger and different shaped cartridge case. The larger amount of gun powder in the KT as compared to the T1 is evident when seen side by side. The same is for the smaller case used on the Comet as to the Firefly gun.

[@larrybedouin2921]

@4:45 That turret was only a prototype. Not a production model turret.

[@terrysparrow2180]

The final production figures for the King Tiger answers the question posed in the video's title. With so few in service the vehicle's impact on the outcome of major battles was always going to be limited.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

They had an impact where they stood. "You shall not pass !" 🙂 As you've said, that's very limited compared to >3000km frontline in the East. And the evil Allies and Russians usually broke through where they weren't. Cheaters ! Which forced an otherwise intact unit to a hasty retreat with all the issues of impossible recovery and maintenance. There were supposedly at least 1.000 Tiger II to be finished by May 1945, but the 8th Air Force had other plans and Henschel was the only assembly plant. It was in fact much more streamlined for mass production than Tiger I. It still wouldn't have been enough.

[@vwgermanlookerbeetle4123]

Love your new video 👍👍👍

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

Thank you!

[@ps1_hagrid_gaming517]

Keep it up man!

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

❤️

[@CMDRFandragon]

17 lber M10, the word your looking for is Achillies

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

yes you are correct, i should've said Achillies, maybe the way i worded it was a bit confusing. thank you for pointing that out

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

I'd have gone for Achilles, because it has nothing to do with "a chili". 🙂 Sorry for the dad joke. Strictly speaking, Collin is still correct. In British service, it was the 17pdr QF antitank gun on self-propelled mount M10. "Achilles" initially was the original version with the US 3" gun, but the name was taken over for the 17pdr as well. Isn't it funny: the Allies used four different 76,2mm (AT) guns plus the Russian 76,2mm, each one using different ammo. And the Germans get blamed for bad logistics and too many variants ...

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

Hi Collin, a certain Ferdinand wants to have a word with you about armor thickness 🙂 Better armor penetration has two reasons: a) the longer barrel and b) the substantially larger propellant charge. The 122mm of the IS-2 was much more capable than the 152mm. Veeeery good point on maintenance. Tiger I and II (and Panther) needed more time to maintain, which simply wasn't available. Lack of critical spare parts didn't help either. Not to speak of the absence of any suitable recovery vehicle. Tiger IIs had to pull out damaged Tiger IIs which led to further breakdowns. For the ammo storage: I am not sure if this was the case with Tiger II, but one design specification for German and US tanks was ammo capacity. The Americans strictly refused designs without sufficient ammo. I can only imagine that they really had to squeeze the ammo into Tiger II and thus put it in all places. And under the usual pressure to finally field the new equipment, things were rushed out. There are certainly better places to store ammo (or leave some out !) than the turret sides. That said, if you hit the hull directly beneath the turret on literally any WW2 tank, you hit ammo. If you penetrate Leopard 1 left or right from the driver, you hit ammo. If you hit the overhanging back on modern tank turrets, you hit ammo. That stuff is everywhere. 150 Tiger IIs in the Ardennes ? There were only two heavy tank battalions in the area, one of which was still equipped with Tiger I IIRC. When I think about it, there were never more than 90 (on paper !) heavies maximum involved in the same operation, except Normandy, if I count this as one operation. Tiger battalions usually recruited their men from existing units, thus they had at least a skeleton of experienced tankers. The first Tiger units in 1942/43 were complete battalions taken from the Panzer divisions. All German tankers even late in the war went through basic tank training; meaning they had driven tanks before. You didn't get into a Tiger if you were a bad tanker or a bad trainee, at least not as driver, gunner or commander. The training effort was shortened and the quality became worse, but it was not that the boys were caught in the woods and put into a Tiger II. 🙂 And I agree, although impressive in many ways, it was a waste of resources and time. That program should have been cancelled once it became clear that breakthrough operations were no longer in the German menu. The diaries of Lt. Freiherr von Rosen (503rd) are a good read. Coincidentally, my dad was saved by two Tiger II of this very unit in Hungary. His family managed to flee across the last bridge ever so close before the Russians. Their treck was crossing the bridge, the Tiger IIs gave covering fire and once the last refugee was across, pioneers blew up the bridge. My dad was 10 back then; he thought it a great adventure.

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

Okay so I did mention that the IS-2 was capable of defeating a tiger II. This is because i read reports about this having happened i believe i even put thay on screen And yes, i was told that there were 150 tiger 2 tanks in Battle of the Bulge, maybe they meant that 150 tiger 2 tanks in total fought in the battle of the bulge and not at one time, so including replacements (?) And when talking in experience i was mainly refering to the last couple of days where they'd enlist civilians to hold back the soviets, ofcourse they did do have better crew man in 1944 but even then they didnt have a lot of time to get used to the tank and learn how the tank works so it was far from optimal. Cool story about your father, it is always very interesting to read real life experiences! All in all i like the tiger 2, even if it was in the end. Quite pointless.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

@@LearningHistoryTogether Yo Collin, I was just referring to the 122mm being the actual "killer gun". It was a true tank gun. The 152 was a howitzer and couldn't penetrate, but it could shatter the armor. There were USUALLY no replacements until a Tiger unit was taken out of the frontline. "Replacements" being damaged tanks returning from the workshop, but they were already counted for on paper strength. If actual replacements arrived, this was USUALLY 3-5 tanks at most. So, I've tried to look this up: 506th (army) had 3 companies of Tiger II and EXCEPTIONALLY a 4th company of Tiger I attached - so called "schwere Panzer-Kompanie Hummel" after its commander. I have no idea where this company came from. Company wasn't full strength (8x Tiger I). Then there was of course the 501st (XX) with Tiger IIs. Now it gets confusing: 301st (yes, 301) heavy tank battalion (radio controlled). As the name suggests, this unit fielded radio controlled demolition tanks, mainly Borgwardt IV, AND Tiger I as guiding vehicles. Don't ask, your guess is as good as mine. Unit had 27-29 Tigers plus some 40 Borgwardts (numbers vary ...) BUT it didn't take part in the operation. My question is, where was 503rd (army), because I can't trace it in this period ? Gear box/transmission/final drive: gear box was actually pretty good and since it was more or less an automatic one, it was quite easy to learn. Transmission and final drive were on the weak but still somewhat "ok-ish" side, if properly maintained and carefully driven. The former wasn't possible and the latter ... well, you're under stress in combat, especially when everybody and his dog tries to punch holes in your tank. Material issues were the main reasons for failure. Using "weak" steel on heavily stressed components is unforgiving. They might have just gotten away with proper alloys. Interestingly, when 506th had to withdraw, they had to abandon about 15 Tigers both I and II, with about 20 vehicles left more or less intact. They only had a handful of actual total losses ! The damaged vehicles they had to abandon were also damaged in combat in most cases. Allied and Russian (AT) gunners loved to aim for the final drives, because this where you can "mission kill" a tank quite easy ! Yes, these components were prone to fail a lot, but it wasn't always the case of material and driver issues. These things got shot at. It's also often forgotten that Allied tankers as well as C&C were very good by late 1944; I'd say as good as Germany was in 1940-42, if not better; PLUS substantially more material and personel to "play" with. As with Ferdinand, Tiger II gave more than it took, but was it worth it ? Tiger I and Panther were more reliable, probably consumed less fuel and could take out everything they met. The IS-2 was tough, but it was killed. For the use of a "breakthrough tank": technically, the Ardennes were a scenario for which both Tigers were designed. Practically, the infantry of 5th Panzer army broke through using WW1 style infiltration tactics.

[@Dreachon]

@@ottovonbismarck2443 The 503rd was fighting in Hungary at that time, the battalion got send there in October 1944 and remained there.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

@@Dreachon Thank you ! I knew they were there together with the remnants of 6th XX Panzer army for the last Budapest relief effort(s) but wasn't sure when they went there.

[@CMDRFandragon]

King kitty was too much at the wrong time more so than to little to late. Its impressive, I was a fan of it cuz big tank, big armor, big gun, grrrr. As ive learned more about ww2 tanks, eh....its fallen out of favor

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

Hmm yeah thats fair enough! It's still something to behold, though

[@williamashbless7904]

Tanks are supposed to be mobile. Seventy ton, fuel guzzling, monsters are hard to keep moving and limited in what terrain they are capable of handling. The crossing of ravines and waterways is key to tactical and strategic mobility. I think Tiger I was a good tank for its intended role. Tiger II was a failure. Congrats on your 3k milestone.

[@Whatisthisstupidfinghandle]

Good video ! Thanks 1:33 I would add that in the last year or 2 of the war Germany had lost access to materials needed to harden its armour so all late war produced armour was weaker than any equivalent thickness earlier in the war. It was brittle and shattered much more easily especially against large shells like the Soviet 122 and 152. This affected not only the K Tiger but panther etc

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

Correct! However, it is very difficult to keep the brittleness of the armor in mind because some will be more and others will be less. It is easier to understand and explain when we are looking at "on paper" values because in real life it was much more inconsistent.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

@@LearningHistoryTogether Forget paper values. On paper, in 1941 T-34 was invulnerable to anything below the 88. Practically, in 1941 most (ca. 55%) T-34 were killed by 5cm guns and below. On paper, T-34 could fire 5-6 rounds a minute. Practically, it was more like 2. On paper, Russian AT rifles couldn't penetrate German side armor. Practically, they were the reason for "Schürzen" on Pz III, IV, Panther and StuG.

[@ottovonbismarck2443]

Absolutely. The shattering effect of heavy artillery on armor was well known already in 1943, when the steel quality was still good. See Kursk, Sicily and Salerno. There's not much you can do armor-wise when >150mm decides to hit you. Smaller calibers became the issue around mid to late 1944. Cracks in the plates, spalling inside, massive shattering, cracking welding seams, you name it. And not only on Tigers and Panthers but on every German armored vehicle.

[@williamzk9083]

The critical material was nickel. And most of it came from Finland, so I think the Germans had nickel until the last year of the war, not the last two years.

[@williamzk9083]

@@ottovonbismarck2443 The ISU-152 could fire its 2 pierce rounds once every 30 seconds. The Tiger II could fire a round every 7.5-8.0 seconds including time for re-aiming after the load. For the first 3-5 rounds the loader could reload in 5.7 seconds so long as he dropped the empty cartridges on the floor instead of ejecting from the roof discharge hatch. The 122mm gun of IS-2 was no better than 152 of ISU-152 but latter improved slightly but still less than 1/2 Tiger 2 rate of fire. The first round usually misses so in an ambush a Tiger II had nearly 30 seconds in which it can take cover, or find the target and return at least 2 possibly 3 rounds after detecting the ISU-152. After 22 rounds these monster Russian tanks and assault guns were out of ammunition and out of the fight. Being able to fire 2 rounds means the second round will likely hit since range and windage can be compensated for.

[@ChrisZukowski88]

tiger 2, electric boogaloo

[@larrybedouin2921]

The T34 also had terrible reliability with the engine only getting 100 hours and the transmissions where very unreliable. The tracks quickly wore out.

[@ClanofRabtor]

Second (STUG)

[@LearningHistoryTogether]

Stug!