Tim Drake Bisexual Let's Talk...

[@darryljack6612]

I think Tim should keep the name Red Robin, when Bruce "died" and no one else was looking for him, Tim was. It was a moment that set him apart from the other Robins and in that moment he wasn't just given an identity, but he found himself an identity through his own hardship and struggle. Just like with NightWing needing to spread his wings and RedHood going through a path of blood, Red Robin is the title that Tim has earned from his passion of not giving up.

[@yurineri2227]

I completely agree but it would have been nice to make that more implicitly

[@darryljack6612]

@Will N I think thats kind of the point though, unlike the others. Its shows that even if batman is dead and everyone else has lost hope, he truly values that title given to him. I think it was a great way of showing him moving forward in life, but still knowing and honoring his roots.

[@TheGhostPanel]

I always thought Tim should take over the Grey Ghost title. Its from generally the same era that he was created and highlights that he's the "detective" of the 4 robins.

[@hugeinsomniac]

@@TheGhostPanel Funny. I was watching Teen Titans the other day and thought Tim should be Red X in the main continuity. Grey Ghost works better though. How could I forget Grey Ghost?

[@arpitpatel2781]

I also think the same

[@qwellen7521]

Superboy and Tim Drake be like: “and they where teammates”

[@stephenjacobs5916]

I see that Sappho reference 😉

[@rabnerd28]

Oh my god, they were teammates.

[@ianesgrecia8568]

I'm still salty they put Tim with some random dude instead of the paring with 1000000000 fanfics on the net. That is ALMOST worst then what they did with Shiro on the end of Voltron

[@oKiterrrr]

@@ianesgrecia8568 I'm sure they're just slowly trying to build up Tim because he's still figuring himself out.

[@ianesgrecia8568]

@@oKiterrrr That's the hope. And if the writer IS a yaoi fan-girl as many are claming, is not impossible to expect a Tim/Jason fanfic become canon. As it is the second higher on the count. I don't particularly like that one. They fought very much to get to the almost-brothers relationship they have today...

[@strelok230]

The fetishization and the common "Bi is just a stepping stone to full gay" trope are what worry me most about this honestly. Good to see some Bi male representation, but if it's being done for the wrong reasons, I don't want it.

[@MrSafior]

If this hickjack long etasblished straight character, is cleary made for the wrong reason.

[@mujiescomedy279]

@@MrSafior not all apparently straight people are straight

[@gbdeck200]

It is indeed a problem They cant say gay cause of his story so its loophole everyone knows hes never getting a gf after this as the writers satisfy their fetish. bl story with drake

[@MrSafior]

@@mujiescomedy279 Sound like an bullshit excuse to justify crackship.

[@mujiescomedy279]

@@MrSafior Or they know that to have a larger impact, you need a character people care about. Homophobes aren't gonna care about a new character who's gay. They might read a Tim Drake comic though. New gay characters are good for the LGBT community. Making existing characters LGBT though can be more effective in combatting homophobia.

[@Aldridge517]

"Love interests have a 20% chance of being kidnapped." You're really lowballing that number. It's more like 200% if you are dating a superhero.

[@calumhouston3308]

Yeah, you're pretty much obligated to get kidnapped at least once.

[@insaneghost2818]

and if its an elseworld story? just write your eulogy now it'll save time later

[@raspberrycrowns9494]

@@insaneghost2818 you don't need to be in a elseworld story if you're Constantine's love interest

[@ProjektTaku]

kidnappers when superman and batman get a 50th girlfriend: Business is booming'.

[@vullord666]

Yeah a secret identity is kinda worthless. For some reason villains just have a sixth sense and always target romantic partners.

[@spaghetto9836]

Can I just say I *love* how unbiased you are? You're impartial but not in a distant way, you explain everyone's thoughts with the same amount of care & I love that. That way it's easier to see the general response to something in the comments, bc no one is trying to copy you. And we all feel understood. Superb work 💖.

[@manis1551]

It's clear that DC are happy that mainstream media are talking about Tim being bisexual. But the real question is if all this attention will lead to higher sales of comics featuring Tim Drake and if Tim will finally be revitalised? Tim as a character has been directionless, irrelevant and boring since the New 52 so all I want is for Tim Drake to have better stories and to actually have a personality again.

[@timothyjacksondrake4454]

Have you looked at the Detective comics Belfry run? I really enjoyed him in it.

[@melissabarrera8913]

My thoughts exacly, I love Tim, he's my favorite Robin, and I have been so vey desapointed with new 52 and rebirth for what they did to him, they made him so useless and bland he was probably boring himself to death

[@alejandrocervantes3624]

Buddy, its western comics, people are in it with a hat and a patch ☠️🦜

[@blackrazer22]

This may create a short bump in sales and the character will go back to no man's land. Making Tim bi does nothing to fix the central issue with the character. With Damian Wayne, what do you do with Tim and making him gay does nothing to fix "What do we do with the character". DC would have been better off killing him off. At least you would have gotten a good story arc out of it. They may still do it when the bi thing does not pay off.

[@tomorrow4eva]

Only if they figure out something else to do with him. A character's sexuality is only a compelling plot point once. He was amazing as Robin, and there are teams he could join. Give him the Outsiders. It vibes with Red Robin (also, I don't trust them to come up with a better name for him, so I vote he should keep that). He could do something like Roy's Checkmate work (can you imagine him and Waller collaborating? Mmm, Machiavellian infiltration and deception plots - I just wish I could trust DC to write something worthwhile). Or just do his own detective work like that period in Detective Comics where every issue is a little stand-alone mystery.

[@Magmaster13]

The fact that Tim Drake had a relatively normal personal life was one of my favorite parts about his long running solo.

[@AustynSN]

And why I was pissed when they killed Jack and Dana.

[@connerkent9641]

@@AustynSN Dana’s still alive

[@AustynSN]

@@connerkent9641 It's been debated wether or not she survived the destruction of Blüdhaven. Given that she's never been seen seen or mentioned since and probably won't be seen again, I'd say it's likely she's gone and therefore functionally dead. Besides that, if she were still around I SERIOUSLY doubt Tim would have just forgotten about her, as she was the last and strongest connection to his dad. On a side note, the whole "Jack's death drove her mad" thing was lazy writing to get rid of her anyway.

[@raspberrycrowns9494]

and the fact he volunteered to be Robin not because he needed Batman but because Batman needed him

[@robdog4062]

And his dad was still alive and he had to hide his secret of being Robin from him

[@stormhawk31]

I want to say one more thing tangentially related to this: bravo, Sasha. As usual, you've handled this CLEARLY contentious issue in a calm, rational way, doing everything you can to be fair to all sides, even if you have a side of your own. I know I'm not the only one who appreciates the way you handle these things. Thank you.

[@Pandapeep]

I'm not sure why we need to be fair to the sorts of people who would have a problem with this.

[@brutalbeard9441]

@@Pandapeep Because their problems might not be problematic (based on prejudice). Her videos are excellent at acknowledging the discriminatory aspect of these conversations, while focusing on the more literary components. All lot of the issues and conflicts she discussed (in more detail) are ultimately about opinions and resonance with experience - things that can drastically change your relation to this piece independent of any phobic criticisms. Hope this helps :-)

[@falkyrie5228]

@@Pandapeep Because people who disagree with you about how a comic book character is being handle may not be doing so because they are evil, but for another reason. For example, I'm white and my best friend is black, but we hold the same opinion whenever people talk about the whole "black superman" thing: We think instead of changing Clark's race, they should do something with Icon or Calvin Ellis. Now, is any one of us evil because of this opinion? I don't think so.

[@stormhawk31]

@@Pandapeep Would you like people to be fair to you?

[@lukelehmann4783]

@stomhawk31 well said gotta love sasha. side note how dose she mange to always have a new outfit that looks fly

[@juggalox1000]

I think a lot of the issue is the fear that they are strip Tim down to being “A Bisexual Tim Drake” rather then build him up as “ Tim Drake who happens to be Bisexual” honestly as a Bisexual man it is kind of offensive that a lot of western media think that if you are Gay, Bisexual, Pansexual, or Asexual that has to be your personality and it is funny Manga have been doing LGBTQ+ characters better then the west sense the 90’s

[@superjlk_9538]

It happens every single time. Iceman. Jon Kent. Their sexuality becomes their identity

[@lucifer-librarian9562]

Boy do I have bad news for you

[@MrSophire]

I am conservative, while I do disagree with the lifestyle, I still believe you should be treated like everyone else. That includes stories. When I see a gay character on tv it seems to be their personality. I understand you because as a Hispanic woman I can’t stand when the switch out a white character for a Hispanic one. Why not just make a new character. Making Tim Gay was nothing more the stunt.

[@judahosborne8868]

That's my thing. I love Tim, he's my favorite Robin. I don't want him to devolve into "the bi Robin" because he's so much more than just bi. Although it is extremely validating for my favorite Robin to also be queer ♥️

[@MisterCynic18]

​​@@MrSophire a new character would fall prey to the trope even harder. At least Tim has literal decades of writing to round out his character and bi can be just another facet; a new character would just end up completely about their sexuality with no depth and be memory holed in a couple years at best. With Tim writers are basically forced to pull out their A game. Or at least, one can hope...

[@Kitsunekun2]

Changing the orientation of a character is tricky at best. Bi works a little better because it doesn't invalidate previous relationships into being the beard... I do enjoy the irony that comic companies are scrambling to show that they have LGBTQ representation when 60 years ago the were scrambling to show that they didn't.

[@masterDarts4188]

Isn't that just pandering both ways ?

[@zachanikwano]

@@masterDarts4188 Yes. Because in the end the companies/corporate folks don't actually care. The writers can be as progressive, but they don't call the shots. If the suits upstairs don't like it (i.e. it hurts the bottom line) it ain't happening.

[@mikealwilliams7548]

@@masterDarts4188 yes, but pandering is also a form of marketing, it was the reason sidekicks were created in the first place to pander to young kids.

[@masterDarts4188]

@@mikealwilliams7548 It's a form of marketing but is it effective considering the reaction to this change ?

[@masterDarts4188]

@@zachanikwano Considering the straight decline comics have been on the past couple years I'd have to question that.

[@ericsanty]

I just hope DC doesn’t decide to forget about Tim and take his sexuality seriously as an element to the character in future stories

[@InReserveProductions]

Considering how DC treats legacy characters they change sexuality *cough* Alan Scott *cough*, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[@ericsanty]

@@InReserveProductions they recently reintroduced that up with Alan Scott, but it’s only developed in side stories of different books. Highly doubt DC will collect all those stories together or at the least make a min-series about an out Alan Scott

[@InReserveProductions]

@@ericsantyExactly, and how many years of inactivity with the character were there? They made him gay just to be killed off two issues later, in a side book that they cancelled anyway. DC has a track record of doing these characters dirty.

[@InReserveProductions]

@Will N Tell that to the New 52.

[@garycannon4644]

basically that trait overrides everything else right?

[@battleupsaber462]

Don't let Tim being bi distract you from the fact that only last year, Brian Micheal Bendis was attempting to rebrand Tim by giving him an all-brown costume and calling him "Drake" Yes, as in his superhero name is his last name. And look how long that lasted lol

[@CTheng]

Well, a "Drake" is an adult male duck. So it keeps up with the bird theme. But yeah, it's so effing lame, even more so with that info.

[@Insane-Howl-Cowl]

He should have gone with Drake like the draconic creature, but colored it like a duck. then everyone would just be too confused to fight him, or challenge anything he says.

[@PeanutStrawberry]

@@CTheng from young robin to adult male duck... xD

[@nicholruaya8120]

Name aside,the costume was just hideous

[@kingofthebis1068]

DC fans hate Bendis but his X-men slaps

[@alexi6050]

For me personally, as someone with a lot of my childhood tied to comics, it’s less about ‘if Tim had always been queer coded’ as it is that there is no reason he can’t be read like that. What’s so frustrating about this discourse is that it’s rife with double standards. Comics have never had standardized canonicity the way novels do. They are reimagined constantly and retconned all the time. From the silver age till now stories have been getting progressively more nuanced and telling more diverse stories. If you didn’t have a problem with Batman going from a goofy non-violent mentality stable paragon to a gritty often violent and traumatized character, then Tim going from supposedly straight to bi should not be such a difficult thing to accept. Could it have been handled better? Of course. Changes like this are rarely made smoothly at first. That doesn’t stop it from being an important moment for a lot of queer fans finally seen themselves represented in a character that from my own experience a lot of queer people really relate to.

[@darkdog42]

Funny how they related to him when he wasn’t canonically bi like you don’t need a character to outright talk about their sex to relate to a character

[@alexi6050]

@@darkdog42 Wrong. Relating to characters is all well and good, but seeing your identity and experience textually, not sub-textually, represented in media is important. When I was growing up there were next to no character in comics that were like me and you know what It sucked! I wish I got to see people like me in the media I love and now Queer comics fans are getting that.

[@darkdog42]

@@alexi6050 So write them stop changing characters make some

[@kennethchan9861]

@@darkdog42 That just loops back to M.A. Taggart's first argument. " From the silver age till now stories have been getting progressively more nuanced and telling more diverse stories. If you didn’t have a problem with Batman going from a goofy non-violent mentality stable paragon to a gritty often violent and traumatized character, then Tim going from supposedly straight to bi should not be such a difficult thing to accept. Could it have been handled better? Of course. Changes like this are rarely made smoothly at first. That doesn’t stop it from being an important moment for a lot of queer fans finally seen themselves represented in a character that from my own experience a lot of queer people really relate to."

[@darkdog42]

@@kennethchan9861 sigh tell me you don’t understand comics history without telling me you don’t Have you seen Batman’s first appearance he murders people he’s a dark character the goofiness was because of conservatives thinking it would corrupt children and make them more violent so Batman was made goofy and came back to being dark once the comics code authority died off Dick Grayson makes far more sense but no they don’t care about making new characters or even making the change suited it’s forced diversity that’s just pandering how is Tim drakes sex relevant to his character dick it’s much more relevant he’s a flirt it suits him but even then I’d still rather a new character with a new story someone who’s bi sexuality has been established as a part of their character not just something thrown in to make shippers happy

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

Honestly, my biggest issue is that this screams “We have no idea what to do with Tim-let’s have him come out of the closet!” Twenty years ago they would have killed him off for a year or two to grab some headlines, but they’ve abused that trick so often it doesn’t work anymore. They only way to grab media attention these days is to out a character, which… let’s be honest, DC has been _awful_ at for years. They claim to support diversity, but do so in the most insipid of ways. I remember reading “Green Lantern is gay!” only for it to be the New 52 Earth 2 Alan Scott, which is about as far away as you can get from the de facto Hal/John and still legally call him GL. When they announced Harley and Ivy were a couple, they made sure to clarify that they were “non-monogamous” because they still wanted to sell t-shirts of Joker and Harley. Wonder Woman being bi was referenced in, as far as I remember, about three panels, that confirmed she left behind a girlfriend on Paradise Island. (Which, when you remember that all the other Amazons are thousands of years older than her and would have watched her grow up as the only child on the island, is kinda creepy. Makes the age gap in Twilight look like nothing.) Even Kate, when she was first announced, they made sure to call a “lipstick lesbian” in every publication, because you don’t want to risk scaring off the straights by having your character be too gay!

[@Thed538dhsk]

DC has handled it better than Marvel legacy characters. Jean grey womansplaining to bobby that he is gay despite him saying no and having a long history of liking women is such poor representaion. At least bi Tim Drake or lesbian Kate makes more sense then an alternate universe colossus mentioning in passing how he pervs on angel when he's not aware. 🤦🏾‍♂️ Why can't these writers do these stories well. When done poorly the backlash only becomes more intense on a lot of lgbtq+ readers

[@mapplemoore197]

You put it in words

[@mapplemoore197]

@@Thed538dhsk it's probably something to do with multiple people all working on the same story, so it becomes about money rather then consistency or something like that But yeah, you're 100% correct.

[@ExeErdna]

With Kate didn't they kill off a love interest of hers like early into those 52 issues of Batwoman? But yeah with Tim I have a weird feeling they're not gonna kill him they're gonna kill Bernard. That's the easy route for them. To me DC never did it well either because they're the quickest to retcon something by resetting and or tampering with the universe.

[@ExeErdna]

@@Thed538dhsk What made me upset is how they just acted like Jean did nothing wrong then just "poof" that version of her away when they were done with her. Yet kept Iceman so damn toxic as like it was a sign he was brainwashed. Iceman being bi or even pan because all the people he dealt with or had interest in were hot. That would have been fine yet full-blown gay after a complete social violation is just bad then they forgot what happened in one universe doesn't equal what happens in another. So Marvel broke their own rule when it comes to what happens in the timeline. Basically what happened with young Jean and Bobby shouldn't have affected the older ones. Yet... "repersentation"...

[@somerandomsmarta556]

The main problem I have is Bernard. In what universe does Tim Drake dump Stephanie Brown the girl he helped through a pregnancy, the death of her father, her trauma, and so much more; for Bernard the guy who thought Tim’s stepmom was super hot?! Tim you have questionable taste in men. However there is one thing I am excited about. Whether people love or hate this decision. EVERYONE LOVES TIM, and I couldn’t be happier

[@kadegetslaid634]

I hate bernard and tim, if they wanted to have him in a relationship with a dude, conner is right there 😭

[@Luanna801]

12:53 Yeah, I don't buy that as a Tim line at all. Tim's historically had lots of close relationships - Dick, Kon, Steph, Bart, Cassie, pretty much the entire rest of the Batfam to greater or lesser degrees. Even when he was in his Angsty Loner phase, he had an arc about getting over that. He literally foiled one of Ra's al Ghul's plans because, as he put it, "I'm not Batman. I have friends." (YMMV on how much you think that's true of Bruce either, ofc, but I would say that while Bruce does have friends, he's much less likely to turn to them for help.) He told Dick that "You're my brother, Dick. You'll always be there for me." And these were both moments from *after* he'd gone through the angsty loner phase!

[@michaellorde5853]

I agree

[@ce_rouse]

Soooooo, Bernard can sus out Tim's sexuality, but can't figure out Tim is Robin while he's standing right next to him? Please tell this ain't so? Because comics! 🤔😂😭🤦‍♂️

[@jpboursaw4469]

Somehow, I think Bernard knew, but never said. Much like the dating question. Probably figures Tim will tell him when he’s ready. Also, domino masks are about as deceptive as a pair of glasses. Shhhhhh…we’re still not telling Lois…..

[@Artbug]

He has gaydar, not Timdar

[@tompadfoot3065]

@@jpboursaw4469 Zooey Deschanel with and without bangs and glasses has me fully convinced that Clark's glasses really do keep his identity a secret

[@jjju3]

Lgbt people have a 6th sense for other lgbt ppl lmfao. So much so like EVERY qu--r person i know (self included) has a story of a friend they made before _either_ of them knew they were some flavor of alphabet soup. For me i met a trans girl in middle school, had no idea _either_ of us were trans at the time but we both came out years later. Still play dnd every week! My girlfriend also has a trans childhood friend with like the exact same story. Not to mention its probably easier to see someone kind of struggling with identity and think "oh I've been there, he probably likes men too." And not "oh I've been there, _he's probably fucking robin."_ lmao

[@jpboursaw4469]

@Will N Hah! True, she doesn’t need help. But playing dumb or not, I’M not gonna risk her ire! Noooothakyou!!!

[@prosperotorres7965]

Let’s just hopeTim isn’t forgotten. DC/Marvel has had many diverse characters for decades that eventually fall into obscurity. As a minority myself I find it offensive when they create or change a character only to later discard them like Cassandra Cain; Monica Rameau; Vibe; Vixen; War Machine etc. It happens with characters in mainstream groups too (Kyle Rainer; Wally West) but it definitely happens with minorities all the time. Sometimes they’re revitalized so only time will tell.

[@MiguelGonzalez-du8de]

God I absolutely hate how Vixen is forgotten. She's one of the coolest characters but she's always forgotten in most adaptations

[@PumpkinSwag]

@@MiguelGonzalez-du8de And then some people will have the nerve to blame comic readers for not caring about minorities rather than the companies who either don't care about minority characters or don't have faith in them.

[@marsjokes]

Sometime ago I had figure that Halle Barry's Catwoman movie could've easily been a Vixen movie.

[@sunshineyrainbows13]

Kyle's half Mexican. Just white passing. Like me. Still POC. Love him. 😭

[@robdog4062]

Whenever DC does give attention to characters that are minorities I feel like they only do it because they are minorities. They don't actually care about them.

[@checkmeowraise5064]

Good video as always. But you were WAY off on one part: "being a love love interest increases yout chances of kidnapping by 20%." That's SUCH an undercount. In comics it has to be at least an increase of 80%.

[@yiklongtay6029]

boom. her reputation is now tarnished

[@BooshojoSenshi]

Excellent discussion on this loaded topic. I hope DC will have writers who understand bisexuality work with Tim. As Sasha mentioned, a lot of people don't understand it at all. It really shouldn't change his character much.

[@thomaskhalu]

"Need the Big Hair Energy to tackle this." 😁

[@kstormgeistgem461]

ah, i think i see why i wasn't as hyped about the subject now... i just washed mine and it's totally flat.

[@everythingabouteverything3304]

I can just see ‘Lois Lane Marries the Chaos Monster?!?!”

[@timoh2248]

LMAO 😂💀🔥

[@cannoliwavestudios2817]

“Do the KZbin things” is just...perfect.

[@HolyHadou]

Everytime there's comic controversy, I need to come here. Unbias review of general discourse and reasoning behind bias and sentiments. That's my jam.

[@TheoWerewolf]

What bugged me about how it seemed to be presented was "Tim thought he was straight... but really he was gay." and the idea of his being bisexual just wasn't a real option. Bisexuality is a weird place - straights think you're a straight person who's selfish and wants all the sex or gay in denial. Meanwhile, gays think you're straight being trendy or, yes, you're gay in denial. For all that 'we're not binary' stuff - there's a LOT of binary thinking going on. And bi men? Bah... no such thing. Only bi women. It does seem that Tim is being defined as actually bi - and that's gutsy. I hope they stick to it.

[@Galvatronover]

Nothing gutsy about retconning a character Edit: especially if the change does t improve anything

[@superjlk_9538]

They aren’t. He hasn’t been attracted to any women since he was retconned

[@lucifer-librarian9562]

@@superjlk_9538 Still a retcon

[@K1R4AAA]

@@superjlk_9538 jeez now I'm disappointed,I was looking forward to his new love interest experiences,it would be cool to see different love interests and how they affect Tim

[@superjlk_9538]

@@K1R4AAA it was doomed as soon as they broke him up with Stephanie to start dating (as far as I’m aware) a brand new character they had just introduced

[@TheGhostPanel]

The most exciting thing about this is the "I want the mantle" line. That's something that I'd like to see explored in future stories. Jason and Dick definitely dont actively want to be Batman. Does Damian even want it anymore? Does Barbara? Does this set Tim Drake on a collision course with Tim Fox?

[@Artbug]

Fox what now??

[@amandak.5967]

Ooh, maybe they both can be Batman? Tim is used to sharing mantles by now... I just hope that he won't become the evil Batman that we've seen before.

[@titheproven954]

It really is the more important story thread to work from then his sexuality in long term story telling. At the end of the day these are still comics about super heroes, not slice of life or romance. Also, far more interesting in the dynamic of his relationships with the rest of the Bat-family

[@mayag224]

I thought he meant the Robin mantle

[@creed8712]

I thought Tim ended up as a time hoping child shooter or something

[@vancenesmith5933]

18:16 *"it's her head cannon made manifest"* ... I'm using this phrase at least twice everyday.

[@comicbookfan124]

In my opinion about the whole thing is that I personally as a Bi person, think that if they wanted to Make Tim Bi, they should've done so prior to the whole setting him and Stephanie in stone. Because I liked how Tim and Stephanie worked, and was happy for them learning to work together, but here just feels like throwing all of that away. Like say making Spider-Man date Ned after a long period of being with Mary Jane. Sure people break up, but I feel like it should be handled in a way that doesn't piss off fans of that relationship set up for multiple years. As for the LGBT representation, in my opinion I'm tired of people using the community as a monolith or changing characters to suit a narrative rather than good story telling. For example North Star, Wiccan, Hulkling, and Batwoman are a good representation of what making characters seem natural and genuine. Where as making Iceman gay feels more like a cop out and an assassination of character based on how it was handled. I think we should push existing LGBT characters to the forefront first and hire writers that will actually tell good stories, with them, rather than putting being gay on a pedestal and yelling at people to except it. Another part is I'm annoyed by the many many stories involving LGBT characters and the need to tell a coming out story, and then having a moment where characters except them without question or hate it like a cartoonishly depiction of a homophobe. Yes the 2 extremes exist, but we need more nuance in the story, ones where people can be excepting of some parts, but not others. Also I'm tired of stereotypical depictions of these people, I want gay characters that just so happen to be gay, not a sitcom gay person. Just make a guy that is into videogames and sports, or a girly girl, but are into the same sex, instead of making a lot of them masculine lesbians or feminine gays. Not at LGBT people are into the stereotype, some are people, you would never know are gay, but are. Why can't we have that?

[@ExeErdna]

We can't have that because that takes a lot more time to write and good nuance as a writer. Like the story they setup gave me red flags that Bernard is gonna die. Since they moment they showed he can fight so he and Tim might start working together. It might happen because of him Tim gets sloppy due to him being around and or Bernard might get kidnapped AGAIN yet this time it ain't by some lame ass villain. With Iceman it validated ONE thing with me Jean Grey is one of the worse characters. They only had her around because only her would do something that horrible then basically go "I did nothing wrong" That's how it was written. I'm bi as well and that story pissed me off to no end then Iceman's solo was just garbage before they "forgot" about him again. I honestly can't with some of these writers. If that can't do it VERY well they just need to leave characters alone. It why I'm liking manga more and more because if they do write LGBT aspects in it. It doesn't step on the toes of other people's writing. This is what I dislike in comics, I don't care if they were hinting it years ago. If they didn't have the gull to do it then don't bring it up now. If they think Tim would have been LGBT if anything they could have made him Aromantic or Asexual because you REALLY don't see that done. They take big about rep then also take the easier routes.

[@comicbookfan124]

@@ExeErdna I agree manga tends to be 1 enclosed story, which usually only has 1 writer and 1 direction it's going. Plus when the story is over, the story opens up the reader to speculate, or re-read things they miss. Plus most of the time on anniversaries of these series they usually send out limited addition runs of the manga. Plus what makes them easier to digest is that they tend to be written with a clear goal in mind, and the story build up to that moment. Where as Superhero comics tend to be given to several writers, that very in quality, and usually have the characters reset to square 1 or go on a different adventure that completely forgets the previous run. I dropped modern comic for channels like this, because of the lack of focus and the shifting tones, and continuity errors. However I will still read/re-read event comics (Civil War, infinity, infinity gauntlet, etc.) or character focused graphic novels (Batman Year One, the Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Daredevil Yellow, etc.)

[@somerandomsmarta556]

As a bi guy I wanted Tim to come out to Steph first and that be something that makes their relationship stronger rather than the exact opposite

[@anthk.4846]

Screw that if they want to make a bi male character make a new one don’t change already established heroes.

[@joshuasatterwhite9520]

All my thoughts in one comment, spot on

[@Mark-pl3bv]

I'm personally on the "we needed more building blocks" side. There were building blocks in former titles, but some people either haven't read them, either didn't really catch up on the comic codes for friendships being broken in these titles. I think some people who feel like this isn't a natural progression wouldn't have felt this way if this "coming out" had happened during an ongoing title with Tim as a main character. Here, it's a 3-part story after Tim fading into the background for a decade. They could have even done that within Urban Legends but later, after giving us more of Tim figuring out his identity as a superhero. So far, without Urban Legends #10, it feels like they're bringing him back just to make him canonically bi. And good for him, I personally think it makes sense, but it's not the best way to do it I think.

[@piotyrholbion]

I agree with everything here, this is an insanely big character momment that imo has kinda been ham handedly done. We need this done better, more building etc

[@timogul]

They weren't "building blocks" though, they were just tin-foil hat shipping war murder-board post-its. In actual context they in no way led to this outcome, but some people will see a ship wherever their eyes happen to be pointed.

[@Terminalsanity]

More or less my thoughts given Tim's age in universe you didn't have to do this through a clumsy and hasty retcon and could have played out more organically through multiple issues. Maybe its just my age and but Obsidian coming out is kinda my bench mark for this sort thing in comics and well frankly this seems well kind of well narrative weak and forced, I mean fussing over his clothes line geeze that was lame sitcom cringeworthy, that's not how teenage boys think.

[@ExeErdna]

@@Terminalsanity Then the problem is like Tim is still a older teen, young 20s? The whole shifty timeline ruins their own canon. Like Dick, Babs, Harley and Jason feel like they're in their 30s at this point yet why are they treating Tim like he's so young?

[@kursad8725]

nice pfp hehe

[@soapywater_co]

Tim has virtually always been with Steph, that’s what upsets me, the comics literally were showing how they were closer and stronger than ever and they break up and it’s not even shown, then they pair him up with some rando

[@soujimura4839]

plus they did it AND and were the only ones in a healthy romantic relationship

[@genevieveowusu885]

I'm a bit new to DC Comics/Batfam, but so far, Steph and Tim have always been my favorite duo! I don't ship any other Tim or Steph relationships but them, but I have respect for them, if you know what I mean.

[@Aramane]

I remember in an issue of Robin, right when Bernard is introduced, and Steph is in a cast and on crutches, and she mentions sitting on a park bench and making out, and Tim says "I'm not in the mood", and Steph basically replies, "If I waited for you to be in the mood I'd have less human contact than a hermit". I remember reading that and thinking, "That's because he wants Conner" :-D

[@rodomolina7995]

He's not some rando tho, but I get your point

[@rejelover]

but tim being bi doesn’t make him and stephs relationship any less valid. it changes nothing. it just means that he doesn’t exclusively like women. but yeah i totally get it, it would be nice if he got with a more well known character, maybe one that he’d had a bond to previously

[@jlwest23]

Just wanted to comment on your Freakaziod tee-shirt as that show takes me back and would kind of cool if they brought the show back.

[@WeFergie]

Another great informative video without excessive hype for either side of the discussion. Entertaining as always.

[@FreekKing27]

I feel like Tim being Bi really doesn't change him that much. By the Way people reacted to it, it would seem like they just made him Gay and shat on his past relationship with Stephanie... Which it didn't, he just likes Dudes just as much as Girls.

[@stranger59]

I lot of people don't get the "bi" part of bisexuality.

[@purplerobin92]

as long as they both blondes it seems 🤣

[@deathridernero7790]

I would love to see DC put him with another woman again, sadly that won't be happening.

[@garycannon4644]

they broke up him and steph off panel and without a reason given hell yeah they shat on it lol

[@FirstnameLastname-ex7vi]

It's just that it's clearly forced, they made spoiler and tim break up OFF PANEL so they could do this, also in mainstream media when a character is bi there always with the same gender

[@JSRLPadre]

As long as Tim convincingly finds a direction he can push forward to and finally get out of this "lost boy" funk, I'll call it a win.

[@cwebb6341]

Very much appreciate you giving a mature, fun, analytical review of this. Keep up the awesomeness.

[@Artemisa97]

The cult thing was weak, let's be honest, but I've always cared more about character than plot, so I'm quite happy with this story. And Belén Ortega's art is GORGEOUS.

[@oKiterrrr]

Almost gorgeous, there's a specific panel in the comic where it shows all the bat family members and most them look like 12 year olds.

[@purplerobin92]

@@oKiterrrr wasn't that in Jason's story?

[@oKiterrrr]

@@purplerobin92 oh i think so..

[@oKiterrrr]

@@purplerobin92 ah ur right sorry

[@Artbug]

The art was absolutely beautiful. The eyes are so bright and happy, and the bodies are lean and dynamic. But both plot and character were flat. It reads like someones 1st attempt at a tim slash fic. Tim deserved better than this for his coming out comic... and at this point, why the heck cant the industry do better than these lecturing tones and shallow tropes?

[@cristinaacosta8938]

Yep, knew this was going to be the most calm and objective this was going to get. Thanks Sasha, I haven't got the time yet to read the whole three part story but know I get the situation a little bit more clearly. Since I haven't read the comic, I'll reserve my opinion for later.

[@yurineri2227]

you did an amazing job covering this topic Sasha, it was objective and informative, your videos always help me to see these topics from other perspectives and get an overview of the situation without demeaning one side or the other, great job

[@MsCassidy23]

I think they really missed their chance to make Tim his own as Red Robin when they rebooted in the New52. His old design, his conflict with Ras and the League of Shadows, even his hideout being in the abandoned movie theater where Bruce's parents were killed, were prime hero backdrops for Red Robin. Plus, is it really a coincidence that Connor broke up with Cassie and was talking about doing something outside of being Superboy? Possible drama right there. (Update: why is the entire discussion thread erased?)

[@mattycyt5973]

As a bisexual male who is especially a dc comics fan there is very little representation for me (Constantine and a few others) so seeing Tim, my favorite comic book character and the one I relate to the most realize his sexuality (in a way that was a tad similar to me, having a crush on a really close male friend but not feeling comfortable with those feelings) really meant a lot to me and it makes me really happy! I will say tho the cult stuff and some of the dialogue and just the execution in general was not good. I have always seen Tim as secretly bi or something or at least bicurious (I never shipped but I did notice the queer coding) so I don’t see this as a sudden change, this has probably always been something in the making at least in my mind.

[@AncientIslander]

"Strap in. Knowing me, it's gonna be a long one." Thanks for the warning, Sasha.

[@VariablePenguin]

Phrasing?

[@jpboursaw4469]

That shoud’ve been our first clue! Also big hair = big subject. Aw, crap! Where’d I put my straps!?!

[@Wyndamn]

"Strap in" , " long one" :-)

[@omarkarim2280]

… *that’s what she said?*

[@bumblebeeznutz9506]

I'm down.... ..for another awesome upload! Oh, and strapping in! Just so there's no confusion.

[@Cycemout]

I really dug your analysis. I'm a Tim/Steph man myself but I appreciate a well thought out and objective view on the issues (no pun intended), and by the way gold star for the Freakazoid shirt. ⭐ ☺️😊

[@genevieveowusu885]

Dude, Tim/Steph is my favorite!

[@acehealer4212]

Between Tim and now Jon Kent dating guys, I’ve been seeing a lot of, “This is gonna kill sales, THOSE people don’t read comics,” and it’s been really bothering me. I want to read more comics now out of genuine interest in and appreciation for the medium but… also a little bit out of spite. Look, whatever the quality of the writing, whatever the writers’ and editors’ intentions, whatever the character’s history, having a gay or bi Robin is a Big Deal™️. I am here for it.

[@eczemmaa]

this is my first time watching your channel and i gotta say -- you're so well spoken, your pacing is good, and your nuance keeps me engaged!!! you had me following and invested every second even though I have no background info on Tim or this comic

[@darthxerxes5468]

i worry about creators making a character bisexual but never actually demonstrating interest in the same sex. it can be a way of appeasing the LGBT community while also making the character more apatising for straight audiences.

[@nosonico867]

Exactly if you make a character bi or pan then please show it because then what’s the point?

[@K1R4AAA]

I also worry about the opposite too basically I feel it's weird to call a character bisexual despite that character exclusively dating the same type of people

[@joselaplacaamigo6400]

Also he didn't just tell him to pride Tim went along AND he got invited to all the after parties(I've always wondered if he went to all of them or if he picked and chose between them)

[@TipeneThorner]

My head canon was he went

[@TheRealKSmith]

Are straight guys not allowed to go to Pride parades and after parties anymore? When was the memo sent out?

[@TipeneThorner]

@@TheRealKSmith they are?

[@TheRealKSmith]

@@TipeneThorner Don't know yet, still waiting on the memo for full clarification.

[@TipeneThorner]

@@TheRealKSmith ahem. Bi guy here. O just said straights are still allowed at pride. That should be clarification enough

[@pinktanukiii]

Finally a video on this topic that isn't focused on attacking either side of the situation

[@rinzi1123]

You're actually the first person I've seen who discussed the storytelling instead of just the queerness and controversy 🤣 I know Tim hasn't actually chosen a lable for himself, but I think a lot of people are forgetting, or maybe unaware of, how common it is for bi people to go years without consciously realizing their attraction to people of their same gender. Just because Tim didn't actively think about being attracted to guys before doesn't mean it can't have been there subconsciously

[@timoh2248]

Yes! This, as well as the possibility of internalized homophobia causing people to actively dismiss those thoughts.

[@garycannon4644]

how can you argue against that kind of logic? oh hes bi but he just doesnt realise it you are literally deciding for people then sweet mother of mercy and joseph lol

[@johncrichton8876]

Or characters don't have sexuality because their not real and it depends on what the writer decides and editorial says is okay. So every chrachter is fluid until publishing.

[@veb_edvard]

This is why characters are fiction and should not apply to the real world. It goes all the way back to Harley and Ivy. Regardless of what the creators originally conceived for the duo, their friendship and ping pong charisma shone through than any romance. I found it unnecessary and to this day perceive them as close soul mates; nothing more. Tim should treat this moment experimentally and go back to the only person that made sense Steph...

[@mandisaw]

All true, although oftimes it's more that the person didn't discuss their feelings with others. But in narrative, we only know what the writers (and artists) demonstrate, either in text or dramatization. I'm more of a DCAU fan, and occasional comics reader, so hadn't heard about Tim & Superboy - that relationship sounds like its on a lot firmer footing as far as what's come before.

[@FotoPhreak12]

I mean Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Selena Kyle, Diana Prince are bi but I never came across a fraction of the discourse that Tim is now getting...I wonder why that is.. ps, love your vids!

[@rangerking7768]

The one true successor of the Bat is Terry McGinnis, my mind cannot be changed

[@novahughes1834]

Facts!

[@sakulaeyr9819]

THANK YOU!!

[@vxicepickxv]

You didn't like Jim Gordon: Batman did you?

[@rangerking7768]

@@vxicepickxv no I did not 😁

[@maxgxd5122]

Ever since batman and robin, i want more dickbats

[@LamunesADV]

I really don't care about Tim being bi, tbh, i think this is one of the only changes i really don't care at all for these kinda of retcons. But i have my concerns... i hope they don't focus only on this from now on for little Timmy.

[@vxicepickxv]

I don't really see it as a retcon though. That's the weird thing about self identification. It can evolve over time.

[@Me-wx1mt]

Hopefully they don’t start writing him like a different character now lol. He’s the same guy so I hope they don’t turn him into the gaybestfriend trope.

[@darryljack6612]

Exactly!

[@micah459]

We already know they are. Look at what they did with Iceman.

[@Me-wx1mt]

@@micah459 yeah

[@VariablePenguin]

@@micah459 that's... not the same company.

[@micah459]

@@VariablePenguin obviously but they're both doing pretty much the same shit when it comes to these type of topics

[@user-ManofStyle1]

Tim Drake fans: Crying Ice Man fans: First time?

[@zakai-kaz]

@@ricardo8640 did you just assume their gender

[@brittlby4016]

I think they mean more in the capacity that Bobby was retroactively made a different sexuality, despite years of the audience literally being inside his thoughts.

[@user-ManofStyle1]

@@brittlby4016 I think Kyle Raynor is next.

[@tvesrb]

This can't possibly be as bad as Iceman...I hope

[@cprince7609]

The Best discussion prompt on the subject to date. Thanks, I feel like you've covered many of the moving parts, and nuance leading up to this Tim Drake reveal quite nicely. Hopefully, as a result of your coverage, people will approach this subject from a more dispassionate, analytical prospective, whether they be yea or nay.

[@adivorcee2357]

My takeaway from all of this is that Tim has a thing for blondes

[@hope-cat4894]

Just like Dick has a thing for redheads. Must be a family quirk.

[@Κυριακή-ΡαφαέλαΚοντογιάννη]

Could you also talk about the Red Hood storyline from Urban Legends? I think it was the best one out of all of them Great video btw!

[@Hi_Just_Fred]

People say Bi is the easier choice because it doesn't "change the previous relationships" but I'd argue you absolutely CAN still find a way to write a mostly straight character in the past to be gay in more modern stories and recontextualize those relationships with some new apiffany regarding the character's mindset. In short, should every seemingly straight character be retconned to not just be straight? No, but only because it devalues that not because it makes it "wrong" It should be done with characters who actually have potential with that, merely showing potential signs or being open enough works. As long as it's not something like "Hey I read ur mind, ur not actually straight." That's forever the dumbest way to handle this stuff.

[@jatinjaiswal4762]

Fred, that only works if the character has no major iconic relationships

[@ejmythos8570]

OMG, you are quickly becoming one of my favorite comic reviewers. This was a fantastic analysis of a contentious topic. Well done.

[@rafferdx]

While I've been a Robin fan long before I realized there was anyone other than Dick under the mask, Tim was the Robin I grew up with and one of the few comics I purchased regularly before adulthood. I will leave the "queer coded" conversations to others because that is a framework that I rarely see media through unless it's more explicit. However, I will address a point of discussion I rarely seen mentioned in this conversation, namely the depreciation of "close male friendships." Basically, I find it increasingly frustrating that modern media lacks "close male friendships" among younger characters without them being immediately heel-turned into either queer coded or explicitly queer relationships. If two male characters were fully adult men when their friendship was begun or solidified, it appears less likely that they will fall victim to this approach; however, for characters left in a "teen stasis" mode, the chances of close male friends being turned into something sexual grows significantly, even if it narratively pans out as an exclusively one-way dynamic. This can be dampened somewhat if the relationship dynamic is always contextualized by, and rarely splinters off from, a co-ed group (think the Teen Titans or X-Men or something). But young male-male relationships between characters of similar age never seem to occur/stick anymore. Maybe this is a side effect of the writers being increasingly women/trans/non-binary who have no personal experience with such relationships and no other frame of reference for them except for portrayals in other media, maybe it's something else. But regardless of the reason, hetero male-male friendships between young adults don't seem to get much narrative focus anymore, and I think Tim's role in-universe is a casualty of that. From the get-go, Tim and Connor's relationship was always brotherly and meant to somewhat imitate the relationship between Bruce and Clark, albeit without Bruce's simmering paranoia and flavored with the generational difference brought about by debuting in the 90s. However, after Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis, Tim lost two of his closest "non work" (aka non-Batfam) male relationships: his father and Connor. From a storytelling perspectives, all Tim's attempts to reclone Connor--frequently cited as queer coded--are simply him trying to both wrestle control over the chaos in his life and create order out of his grief in the only way he knew how: applying his intellect to the problem. On a meta-level, resurrecting or otherwise recreating his father had drawbacks in-universe that editorial probably didn't care for (think Disney heroes/princesses having dead parents), so it made sense from a Meta perspective that Tim wouldn't try to clone him. Connor, on the other hand, began life as a clone, and as a named superhero with more storytelling potential than Tim's dad (at least in the eyes of 2000s editorial), it made better narrative sense for Tim to try and resurrect him. Plus, Connor was Tim's best friend and wasn't subject to the "family politics" or dynamics of the Batfam. In-universe, Tim needed that relationship back to have an outlet outside of Gotham, and meta-narrative Tim needed someone other than the Batfam to play off of without being in "team leader" mode like he frequently was in Teen Titans. Separately, while there's a lot to say for the "Batfam" dynamics, it's easy to forget that Tim's closest, non-sexual relationships (other young heroes) were outside the Batfam. And, when Tim's longstanding role in the DC universe was undercut post-Damien and new-52 without an actual follow-up narrative plan, his main purpose--being a companion and foil for Bruce--was lost without a solid replacement. His unique roles/niches continued to be undercut/disappear as Damien replaced him on titles/teams where Tim previously was a mainstay. There was a decent chance to revitalize Tim immediately post-Rebirth in the Detective Comics run, especially with the opening focus on Tim's intellect and detective skills. But that was immediately torpedoed by his "death" and any narrative momentum disappeared when his rediscovery immediately turned him into an "inactive" hero going to school with Stephanie. At that point, as a longstanding character with (apparently) no committed lore champion in the writer's/editor's room, no "obvious" narrative arc (like Damien as the "blood son"), and an extended period of stagnation in publication history, the modern storytelling landscape dictated the default "revitalizing" hook, aka a change in sexuality, which in turn foreclosed how modern editorial would allow Tim to be handled moving forward. And, accepting for the sake of argument that the sexuality change was the correct" next step, because editorial didn't look at his narrative potential past that, all future solo-ish appearances have devolved into gay "slice of life" stories with a dash of heroics on the side. Gone is the narrative potential of Tim outstripping Bruce as "the Detective," the dark edge Tim might've had (as seen in the gun-wielding Batman from "Titans Tomorrow"), the solid romantic potential of a healthy and committed crime-fighter duo in Tim & Stephanie (contrasted with the self-sacrificing Bruce, the flirtatous semi-monogamous Dick, and rage-driven loner Jason), or anything else traceable through Tim's 30+ year history. And that's what frustrates me most about the change. The increasingly lazy editorial focus on the Batfam characters (Bruce, Dick=happy Bruce, Jason equals gun Bruce, and Damien=blood son) left Tim without an active story thread. Partner that with modern comics' myopic focus on the "trendy" ways to revitalize characters via their sexuality, and we're left with a Tim who's narratively kneecapped and increasingly radioactive to any writers who would want to do anything with him story-wise that wasn't either heavily focused on his sexual/romantic status or putting him as a secondary character in someone else's title/story. And, sadly, I don't see that ever changing.

[@ComicChronology]

I’m so in love with Belen Ortega’s artwork. It’s so ridiculously perfect for Tim. Great discussion and video as always :)

[@josh2299]

a lot of the things people give as examples of tim showing signs before just come off as “straight people have to be jocks” kinda thing

[@amandak.5967]

I like this story for the most part: wonderful art, long-awaited revelation about Tim, cute ship.... Branching off from that, I am curious to see where they take Steph. In a way, she's like Kori who was created to be Dick's love interest. Only after DickKori broke up was when Kori was really able to go off and have her own solo adventures. Tim has had (and is having) a chance to explore his sexuality and grow in other relationships. Steph should be able to have that too (and while it probs won't happen so soon... if she did come out as bi or pan I could see her with Supergirl, Cassandra Cain, or Harper Row). PS. Thanks for the great vid, Sasha! :)

[@OllieConnorsFilms]

I’m gonna be completely honest the pacing in the story could’ve been handled a bit better, Tim will always be my favorite Robin so that doesn’t really change fundamentally. The Connor and Tim thing has always felt like two best friends, think Corey and Shawn from boy meets world. At the end of the day it’s up to DC to decide what happens to the character, I think arguing about it is a moot point.

[@shadowyblackness]

It's so hard to have middle ground with this sort of thing. I'm glad you're able to see both sides the argument😊

[@YouYubeUser228]

Tim "wants the mantle" Is this the mantle of Batman, becoming the eventually successor of Bruce, or of Robin, firmly pushing Damian out of the mantle

[@suisui7481]

Well in robin 2021 mumber 5 out in 5 days all the robins are going to save robin from the tournament he is in So there must be tim damian interactions so wait and see what that says

[@ViccVegaa023]

See that is the part I don't understand. Last I checked (which was years ago, so I may be wrong, lol) Tim's whole thing was that he didn't want to be Batman. He was going to be Robin until he was no longer needed as Robin. Wanting to be Batman used to be Dick Grayson's deal. Until Dick got the job. I'm just not sure what mantle Tim could want if he used to consider being Robin as a temporary gig. Red Robin?

[@maevedoyle2634]

dc has so many bisexual women, it's good to see more bi men there.

[@bigmilkymistress1006]

I found it weird that very few people complained when the bi women came out but everyone's upset when tim did.

[@TeruteruBozusama]

@@bigmilkymistress1006 that's because among some men, bi women are a fetish...

[@bigmilkymistress1006]

@@TeruteruBozusama lol i wasn't gonna say it cus i didn't wanna upset them..

[@TeruteruBozusama]

@@bigmilkymistress1006 secret weapon of the ace, being really blunt!

[@ottooctavius9552]

The reason why people have a problem with this is because Tim was always shown as straight. Con El was just his friend. There wasn’t as much of a problem with Superman’s son was that he was established as gay straight away. That’s the difference.

[@ShalathePrinny]

I have it on good authority that the two pages getting the most circulation read like yaoi fan fiction. Also funny that when talking about outfits the argument "They're wearing a colorful costume! That's so gay!" could come the pro or anti side.

[@ExeErdna]

Yup, that's 100% why the pages got a lot of heat since people see it as typical "yaoi" works. It's why I say "can we please avoid romance for bit" since it's kinda getting stale to see

[@xanderdumas1682]

I have been a Tim Drake fan since the Batman Anime. I love this and I hope they will do more with Tim.

[@Sam-jt2rk]

I don’t read comics very much and know almost nothing about Tim, but what I saw here resonates with me as a bisexual man. I couldn’t admit to myself who I was until my mid-20s, so I hope that stories like this help someone younger out there feel accepted and valid.

[@The_Logan_D]

Tim: “Maybe it was always there, waiting for someone to start the program” Me: *starts sobbing at 6:30 am*

[@The_Logan_D]

Bernard better take him someplace nice😂

[@The_Logan_D]

If Tim/Connor finally happens I will never ask for anything again 😂 I can die happy 😂

[@thephoenix2038]

@@The_Logan_D YES!

[@jeffscroger7674]

@@The_Logan_D The embrace between Impulse and Superboy in Young Justice has me shipping them instead. twitter.com/patrick_gleason/status/1101937240115159041/photo/1

[@UncleMuin]

I'm here for THIS content. Tim is my favorite Robin.

[@vernonhampton5863]

You know what, Tim is in my opinion the best Robin too... but at the same time, I would like for him to move on as Red Robin more so than he has. He's still one-foot-in-one-out. But the 'revelation' of his bisexuality should not be as big of news as it is. I think, if anything, and this is just me... they should make Tim Drake the Question. That would be more interesting than just confirming his sexual orientation. That's part of 'what' he is and I'm more interested in what he's doing.

[@AriefLeuvenardi]

Tim has gone through a lot. You haven’t mentioned that he once had a relationship with Marvel’s Jubilee (!) and a version of him from the future substituted Terry McGinnis as Batman (Beyond) (I can’t remember if it’s from another distant future or another timeline).

[@vanceamania]

Great video. Not big on drama myself and there's so much vitriol out there right now. Honestly haven't picked up a comic since new 52. The characters never felt the same since

[@irrevenant8724]

My recollection is that Tim didn't actually seek out the role of Robin. He worked out who Batman was, and why he was becoming increasingly reckless - he was hurting after Jason's death, and not dealing with it well. He tried to convince Batman that he needed a Robin, but seemed genuinely shocked when Alfred suggested that *he* could be that Robin.

[@Midnight-Starfish]

You know, I pretty okay with this. As a pet peeve, it always bothers me that bi characters are almost always women since it's seen as being more socially acceptable for being hot. Like, here's a female character that can have a threesome and probably instigate it. I feel we need more male LGBT representation in media that aren't really bad stereotypes. And if people get upset about this, just say it's a different universe. There's a universe where Batman tied the Flash to the hood of the Batmobile to get his powers, I'm sure there can be a universe where Tim Drake swings both ways.

[@fattimmy2829]

I agree.

[@anthk.4846]

One problem this is in in the main dc universe.

[@kwayneboy1524]

@@anthk.4846 Okay I'll bite what do you mean by that?

[@anthk.4846]

@@kwayneboy1524 what I mean is that if your gonna change the sexuality of a straight character do it in an alternate universe.

[@anthk.4846]

@@colemanbrenner6555 which comic was hinting that he liked dudes because I’m pretty sure he was dating women in older comics. Plus if you wanna create a bi character create a new one.

[@bendecam849]

i didnt hate and i didnt love i just thought its just ok but the only thing i didnt like was the writer saying that him being bi was a part of his personality that was missing

[@Solarof928]

same i’m fine with it but let’s stop acting like Tim was always Bi that’s such a stupid thing to say

[@TheDevos1]

@@Solarof928 is it? Lol

[@brutalbeard9441]

This ties deeply into Sasha's discussing of Coding - the author felt like this aspect of him was always being communicated indirectly. For her (and many others) it was, for a lot of different people it wasn't. Characters change, defining qualities adjust, and time + multiple authors and reader interpretation all add up to a very nebulous concept of who and why a character IS. :-)

[@ianesgrecia8568]

I'm just sad they did so little about the character itself. I expected a more elabored plan and some actual cliffhanger with the bad guys... Sexuallity is not that important in comparison with a goddamn sacricifying people cult... And Tim is the more plan-oriented mind on the Robins. He COULD make a batman-level elabored plan to get the information and make it more intense

[@bendecam849]

@@ianesgrecia8568 i would love to see as batman

[@jotaux3652]

I have a couple thoughts on this. First I feel like they have taken Tim from being the best Robin to the worst over the last few years and now that he has low value they feel like they can make him bi. Second I’m annoyed they broke up him and Stephanie

[@purplerobin92]

there is so much wrong in this comment I don't even know where to start. But sure. Go off.

[@abelchavez2463]

They like ... Always break up. Comics bro, no one ever gets together

[@dithaingampanmei]

@@purplerobin92 yep there's a lot wrong in that comment but none of that is from Jotaux. All of it is from the comics creators.

[@jotaux3652]

@@purplerobin92 what’s wrong with it? Over the last few years they’ve destroyed Tim’s character. Nothing to do with him being bi. Now he’s the safest character to make bi. Comic sales are already low and this might give them a boost.

[@willadkins1354]

@Abel Chavez If comics relationships are always like that, then why should anyone be invested in this one?

[@Marvelman73]

Fun fact: Bobby Drake and Tim Drake have always been two of my favorite characters. Also, I didn’t truly accept part of my queer identity until Iceman came out. Queer coding discourse aside, it’s incredible how I was drawn to two characters for reasons I never really knew and had very similar arcs to them in my life. I remember being mad when Iceman came out because I couldn’t believe someone would deny part of who they are most of their life, and then when I looked at myself and realized I was doing just that… well, that’s why I love comic books.

[@jamesmason7979]

Major changes to a character with decades of continuity will always arouse some form of suspicion from me. Usually, good writing in the long-term will mitigate that feeling.

[@amarim8634]

how is who hes smashing a major change

[@mrnobody6438]

@@amarim8634 it is tho...i think its a good change but male sexuality in modern comics is major let's not play dumb...major good in my case .

[@dennismason3740]

Sasha, dear, you are the ultimate kindergarten teacher and considering the emotional age of... Because of your objective take on I am Not Starfire I will check in on anything you care to address. I swear I dismissed the Mandy story outright based on YTstoopity, then I watched your essay at 75% because my tempo is 25% slower than yours and I, who have been reading comics since the 1950s, actually liked the story and art. I would have totally missed it. Thanks.

[@rotwang2000]

I do feel their anguis about something like I am not Starfire. I too had arbitrary rules in my mind that if transgressed would cause me vast amounts of excruciating agony and I would have fits, screaming, foaming and kicking, when the gravy touched the meat instead of staying with the mashed potatoes, but then again I was three ... what's their excuse ?

[@dennismason3740]

@@rotwang2000 - I feel the same. Still, compassion demands that despite their emotional maturity or lack of it they are kids, just kids, little kids, big kids and their discomfort is no more invalid than my own. I am responsible to them, not for them. I recognize that a lot of kids are feeling like Mandy and this book speaks to many youngsters in one way or another.

[@Insane-Howl-Cowl]

I love Tim Drake. He's a great character. Also, I love his original costume. It's a nice design.

[@Insane-Howl-Cowl]

Although that picture at the beginning... he really needs a dancer's belt.

[@mauricecherry1209]

Same

[@Me-wx1mt]

Same but my favorite costume is the red and black suit.

[@Kei5ive]

As of costumes I want Tim back in a cowl. Not read many of his stories. I assumed that working around Barbara and seeing that she could identify people wearing domino masks or face paint. Made him put on a cowl.

[@Nightman221k]

Tim is the most stylish Robin. I don't care what anyone else says.

[@milesisme02]

I saw the link and clicked fast!! Notification gang ✌️✌️

[@barneynedward]

My question is how long it will take for DC to sweep it under the same rug hiding all of their other underdeveloped plot points. Like where did those other two Jokers come from

[@DieuNguyen-hu2sd]

Don’t really give a fucc about his sexuality. I’m just a ordinary TimSteph shipper, laying on the floor, crying.

[@harryschlitz4067]

Did anyone notice that Freakazoid's and the Icredibles logo are almost the same.?

[@philbuttler3427]

Asking the real questions

[@ghartman56]

Sasha, you're a godsend in the crazy world of fandom. Never change. Personally, this has been my head canon ever since Superboy's death, but either way, I love how you pointed out that it doesn't invalidate Tim's relationship with Steph. If someone liked blondes and brunettes, no one would say that dating a blonde invalidates every relationship they've had with a brunette. It's obviously more complex with sexuality since it's not something you can just dye a different color and it has more society/identity components, but it's odd how confused some people get by the concept of bisexuality.

[@ludovicmodabi3200]

Whichever side you're on this discussion, can we at least agree that it's been done a lot better (maybe not perfect, but what is?...rhetoric, pls don't send me exemples) than for his cousin at Marvel: Bobby And on a personal note, as long as they don't make that aspect of him the only one worth mentioning, I wish him the best through his self-discovery.

[@megamonmon]

They would have had to set out to make it worse than iceman 's reveal

[@alonsogonzalez7539]

"At least it was a better coming out story than Iceman's" is gonna reach memetic potential.

[@ExeErdna]

Iceman's is still the worse because Marvel still treats is as canon while also ignoring HOW it happened. So Jean Grey is able to whatever again?

[@chance4827]

"Bobby, you're gay"

[@frogradar]

@@ExeErdna literally awful though. Like, that moment pretty much encapsulates why mutants should be feared. The fact that she just read his mind, found out he is gay and decided to tell him to his face rather than keep her mouth shut it's... cruel. Any gay who had to go through school being told they were gay by everyone around them knows fine well how awful it is to be told you're gay before you're ready to come out.

[@xwing2417]

"cringer-sizes" lol! Thanks for reviewing this. Heroes come in all forms.

[@allthingsmalik5528]

I absolutely love how you approach your channel. I love John Campea, Grace Randolph, and Dan Murell and now I have added you as one of my favs. A totally unique prospective of comic book lore . Thanks

[@gozzywozzy485]

Tim's still a super awesome character. Just because you are attracted to people regardless of gender, that doesn't mean that you are attracted to EVERYONE. It just leaves the audience guessing ;)

[@sapphic.flower]

there's people who say making a character lgbtq+ shouldn't happen because it doesn't serve a narrative purpose while at the same time complaining about stories that do focus on the character's identity. They literally can not be satisfied.

[@thrawncaedusl717]

Tim was my favorite DC character, but after New 52, I basically lost interest in him (he was just such a different character). For him specifically, I feel very meh about this change. The part of this discourse that I take issue with is the people that are basically claiming any caring, non-toxic male friendship is queer coded. I agree with the point that Anthony Mackie made a couple of months ago that straight male friendships need to be respected more and the assumption that they are queer coding is harmful.

[@chance4827]

@@Mark-pl3bv Grand acts of platonic love happen all the time in comics. What kind of comics are you reading.

[@veb_edvard]

This makes me wish that Tynion IV killed him in Detective Comics. This transition is too forced to be a positive thing for the character as it is reminiscing with the current climate of social wokeness...

[@FantasticDinos]

The physical and metaphorical masks that a Robin wears give them the opportunity to play around with identity and discover who it is that they want to be. No one stays Robin forever, but I thought it was really powerful that Tim declared that he still wants the mantle. He’s saying that he wants more time to figure out his path in life. He kinda got pushed out of the nest before he was ready, and it’s a bold move to say “No, I still need this. I deserve time to figure this out!” For the first time in a long time, I’m excited to see where DC goes with this character.

[@knightfall7704]

I support gay and bisexual people but now it’s everywhere I turn. In movies, games, books, comic books. I hate how they change characters that were made a long time ago, they change them by making them bi or gay and it has happened so much that I can’t anymore. I support them but I don’t support it being everywhere

[@thecluckster3908]

I kinda feel as if it’s important to have characters who you’ve known for a long time come out as bi or gay. It’s a good way of showing that people that you have known for all of your life can be gay and you just don’t know. And I don’t really understand the problem with seeing it everywhere.

[@cosygoose1813]

@@thecluckster3908 I see the problem and I'm not straight, why? Because gay culture sucks, its s@x, being edgy, attention seeking and people thinking they need to come out. One of my favorite comics is a bl because they dont come out, they avoid stereotypes and are always there sexuality. And no thats not how it works, Tim has been around for 30 years and they changed him. Its obvious that he was changed, when dealing with sexuality you need to know the sexuality from the start as the writer. For example many characters like in Voltron you don't know their sexuality for a long time but they aren't written with a different sexuality. Iceman was the exact opposite to how he's shown in recent media. And having it everywhere is unbearable who are tired of the same story. Someone coming out is annoying if its everywhere, and the way gay is represented is very inaccurate. Most people just get on with their lives and don't come out or act like a stereotype. Back when being gay wasn't like this celebrities kept there love life to themselves and were vague about it and wanted to talk about there work now if someone is gay its all they talk about.

[@thecluckster3908]

@@cosygoose1813 I don’t really see the point your trying to make

[@cosygoose1813]

@@thecluckster3908 That sacrificing the story isn't good representation. And that gay culture is a s@$% tip. Of abuse, s@x, making stuff up, narcissists, complaining and stereotypes. I can't stand dealing with that in media all the time. Some other type of diversity would help, I see no dyslexic, autistic, ocd, adhd, mute or any other minority that isn't trendy. I know more autistic people than gay people, yet wheres their representation? If I ever do see autistic superheroes they are trying or have "cured" themselves.

[@thecluckster3908]

@@cosygoose1813 In the case of robin, they didn’t really sacrifice the story, what your talking about is the bad side of gay culture, and while I do agree that there should be more representation of the things you mentioned but I feel like that shouldn’t really be a reason to get mad at queer rep.

[@HankChinaski27]

I love that sweet Ringo art in Robin series. That man could draw dynamic panels. His style was perfect for Tim. I went back and read these in back issues, and some of those issues definitely still hold up. Personally, it is one of the reasons I actually really appreciate Chuck Dixon as a writer. Some may not agree with his opinions or politics, but that doesn't preclude talent. No one can deny not just his impact on Tim's character, but he was the workhorse of the 90s comic industry. So he wasn't just churning out gems like Robin; he also maintained the quality on most his runs IMO. There are some crazy storylines in that era, and so many stories to get acquainted with Tim in. ...and can't we love Tim AND Damian? More love folks. 😀 Also, been reading comics for 36 years. Man I'm old. lol

[@CyGea]

It's sad to know, so many people think "personal identity" can ONLY mean sexuality or skin color. I doubt there are many people out there who don't struggle with their "personal identity" as a teen.

[@curtisrichardson4128]

I know that sometimes the “changing” of a character’s sexuality seems like it is pandering to gain a new audience or to re-energize a character; it doesn’t always seem authentic, genuine, or respectful. I always question the why to things. I like 2tlgbtq* additions. I don’t mind anything, but I do ask why-sexuality, race, appearance, etc. should be variant amongst the depictions of characters, but I am more than my race, religion, sexuality, gender and body type, as well as I know that no always things are done altruistically in media, et al. I have seen pendulums swing, and sometimes it harms those it says that it is interested in. That’s my two cents, and I probably have been all types of offensive, but I know that I meant no disrespect or attack on people who love all the changes or those who don’t.

[@ExeErdna]

You're right about the pendulum since there's two sides "those that are empowered by representation" and "those that "used" by representation". Since I for one never felt empowered by seeing people that look like me. I just wanna see something cool and interesting. Yet for others need it to feel like their choices are validated. To me that's weird because I don't need any sort of outside validation because nobody on the outside can understand nor take away how I feel. I care for the story and how the characters works with it. I think they care for the character before the story, which is fine. Yet for somebody like me I'm seeing less quality stories and more focus on characters I don't care about because the world is so meh.

[@kalen2465]

They are pandering to an audience. But they don't actually hear what people are saying. Batman and Superman are two of the biggest comic book franchises. The characters despite being complete opposites have always been close friends. There's a lot of fans that would love to see them knock boots together atleast once. It's never happened yet and probably won't. The pattern persists though. Tim Drake's closest friend is Connor Kent. And Damian is close friends with Clark and Lois's son Jonathan lane Kent i think he's named. So in keeping with this pattern people still want to see closer relationships between the extended bat family and whatever Superman's family is called. Still not likely to happen for whatever reasons. Even when they do give us relationships like Batwoman and Maggie Sawyer. They aren't allowed to marry. I guess because they don't want to rock the boat too much. So instead they curry favor by haivng some characters enter a same sex relationship with a generic character. someone no one would miss if they got canned later on.

[@ExeErdna]

@@kalen2465 Yet that seems so lame, like they've Jumped the Shark since Dark Nights Metal like what else can they really do? If they wanted to do grounded stories they should have been doing less world ending events over and over. Yet like you said they don't listen to people

[@saraluciaforerogarcia]

Super true, but as a Colombian that loves heroes and to this day hasn't seen any hero from my country, or barely any latino heroes in general, I would love to see some of that. Because specially in the comic industry lots of this things are underepresented, but again you are right they need to listen to people

[@LegendarySpaceRipper]

They tend to pander to those who do not even read their stuff. So they anger those who read it and get snubbed by those who do not. A lot of these books rarely sell yet DC still hires these writers to insert their own fanfic into stuff which the audience does not want. The world ending events seem boring, making characters bisexual/homosexual out of nowhere is silly and lazy as they could make more characters with decent writing if they cared about representing people. Althrough most attempts at representation turn into one dimensional stereotypes that will never sell.

[@starfalchion4404]

My perspective on Tim’s bisexuality: I don’t mind it. I just prefer him with Stephanie. To me, it’s the same as preferring say Bruce with Selina over Talia or Dick with Kori over Barbara. However, even though it could happen and I personally want it to happen, putting Tim back with Stephanie would not be a simple task. There will be backlash from people that preferred him with Bernard, parts of the LGBT+ community who would probably say it’s a slap in the face for queer representation, or even people that want him with Connor or Cassie.

[@foolwriter]

Oh, boy, I've been looking for a place to unload about this, lol. But honestly, thanks for such a clear, rational discussion of what's usually a knee-jerk issue. So since you asked... I'm a straight cis white midwestern male who turned 14 in 1990, so to say that Tim was my primary identification character in DC would already be an understatement. The fact that this was a "smart" Robin as opposed to the "jokey" Dick or "angry" Jason made him even more MY version of the sidekick (and the fact that he wore long pants and had the black outside to his cape didn't hurt). I loved the first mini and Chuck Dixon's approach to him in general, and even though I'd drifted away from the Batbooks at the time, grimaced when Damian Wayne showed up because I knew Tim was gonna get sidelined eventually. Then he bounced around, popping up here and there, usually not to much effect. Tynion's use of him in Detective was awesome (I even thanked him for it at a con), but also felt like an attempt to shuffle the character offstage until somebody else could figure him out. So far nobody really has. Now I haven't read this issue (my wallet's allergic to anthologies these days), but when I heard the news, my response was "huh, that tracks." I mean, I wasn't oblivious to the subtext of the Tim/Connor relationship, and no matter how much or secretly I 'shipped him and Cassie, I knew what that was all about. But at the same time, I also felt that identification that had been so strong slip just a bit. It's kind of an inexplicable but not inconsequential feeling when I go back and read those early books. But like I said, it totally tracks, and there's an undeniable thematic richness to an analytical character like Tim trying to figure out his own sexual identity. In a way, he's the perfect prism for that kind of exploration, since it fits his character that he would want to explore all the options. Based on the excerpts here, eh, I'm not sure how high I would be on the story itself, and your comments on author insert to ring true, but this development for this character is a solid idea with a lot of potential for future stories. I have to admit, soap opera elements of Tim/Bernard or even Tim/Connor aren't something I'm excited for, but I understand those who are. I liked Tim/Stephanie (again, I really enjoyed Dectective) and I don't think that was just due to orientation, but that's something I'm still thinking about. These aren't easy issues, and I'm glad we have things like comics to help work them out in. I just hope that this is the first step on defining Tim Drake as a character a la Nightwing or Red Hood. He's still who I think of when someone says "Robin," but I'm excited to see who else he could be.