Time Travel in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask

[@Shinntoku]

I've always felt the Downfall Timeline happens because when Zelda sends Link back it time, it "weakens" the time stream, and the Triforce of Power is able to force a timeline into existence where Ganondorf wins so that it can grant his wish

[@Shinntoku]

This also makes each of the timelines represent one piece of the triforce: Adult is Courage for Link's victory over Ganon, Child is Wisdom as Zelda is able to use Link's knowledge of the future to prevent Ganondorf's rise, and Downfall where Ganondorf's power overwhelms Link and gives him control of the Sacred Realm

[@Shinntoku]

Also Re: MM timeloops, I definitely think it's the ocarina bringing the important things back with Link, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. It would actually make less sense because Link *has* to have the Ocarina to uncurse himself at the start of the second loop.

[@3X3NTR1K]

It could also be that it happened the other way around: Downfall happened "first" and something took place to instigate the timeline splitting in the past so that Downfall wouldn't be the only future Hyrule had. That even may or may not have been a wish made on the Triforce, or a desperate asspull from Zelda/Hylia to prevent Ganondorf from taking full control. What's fun about that idea is that while Downfall as the "first" timeline could have resembled OoT closely, it doesn't actually *have* to. It even could have had a young Link who wielded the Master Sword to fight Ganondorf, with no time travel at all. Not surprise he got curbstomped that way, or he took years adventuring to become strong enough to oppose him. Thus all the "aging seven years" could have been part of the hotfix, and the "mistake" Zelda made that split the timeline was actually by design. Then most of the rest of your idea still applies, with the trifroce aligning with each timeline. Heck, that's a good a reason as any of the child/adult split happening: there HAD to be three timelines.

[@DatHypnoboi]

I feel like the simplest explanation for the downfall timeline is that there are quantum splits happening constantly in the whole series, it's just that the events of the games coincidentally only happen in the main 3 timelines. It's kind of unsatisfying, but there's nothing to prove that those timelines are the only ones that exist, we've just only happened to see those timelines for whatever reason

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Yeah I think something like that happened in SS. Not a quantum split but just the idea of a timeline or two we never see after

[@Wanderlust2430]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 The idea of a timeline where gannondorf/demises curse takes a lifetime off and it's just an animal crossing game is hysterical to me. Probably a bad zelda game though.

[@Fragmentsinfractals488]

There is a small factor that could be a solution to this. The Goddess of Time is brought up in Majora's Mask, and in Tears of Kingdom, it is revealed Zelda is also a Time Sage. So, now all the Time Artifacts have an agent behind them. This means the Goddess pulls Timelines apart and put them back together. This would also explain why the Door of Time is open with no Spiritual Stones at the End of OOT. Zelda, using the Ocarina of Time (Time Artifact) opened the Door in the Past from the Future as she send Link back so he could "live his Life". This is also why Child Zelda gives Young Link the Ocarina before Majora's Mask. It is because , as a Time Sage, she senses she should. Adult Zelda send that to her. Therefore, it isn't a coincidence. It is Destined by the Time God. The Time God is shaving Timelines that don't follow the Narrative of the Legends. This also means The Time Goddess needed Link to die somewhere to connect a Downfall Time to the Histories, so Zelda 1 and 2 would exist, to continue the Cycle. Because when you can see all of Time, all of the Time, you can set things up before they happen, then correct for them.

[@Fragmentsinfractals488]

There is an Interesting point in Skyward Sword. The Harbringer of DEMISE creates a Higher Dimension place "Free of Distraction" for the final Battle. This place is a "eternity" outside of Time, where DEMISE can just wait until you appear. If you don't go after him, He can literally go everywhere from this place Outside the flow of Time. And if you lose, DEMISE will make you die Eternal. This is because he has "conquered Time" and is Metaphysically Eternal. He is existing in a "Heaven" and doesn't really even look like what He looks like. Conceptual, almost. This is why he can only be Sealed, which basically puts Him Asleep inside that "wretched little Key"/the Master Sword and Physically decays his "Body". This is in fact seen in Wind Waker, where the Key Seals GANON's Power and Minions in a Time Statis in Hyrule Castle. The Time Artifact(The Sword with DEMISE and Fi in it) is Sealing Ganondorf's Time and decaying his Power. All this to say, DEMISE, Like HYLIA/ Zelda can add and prune Timelines through the Chaos of GANON and Demon's like him. So for the Downfall and Adult timelines, this is simply The Essence of DEMISE and The Essence of HYLIA Fighting each other to try to effectuate the possibility they most Desire. Ganondorf, Spirit of DEMISE and his Curse vs Link, The Spirit of the Hero And HYLIA's Blessed.

[@TheHaddonfieldRegistry]

To add onto the end, regarding OoT being a time loop, with Zelda (if we assume her to be the sage of time in OoT, it's never stated) living in a world where Ganondorf has been defeated, I can see why she would choose to keep that timeline intact.

[@obits3]

Imagine if they created a Majora's Mask Master Mode. After the first loop, via magic, you keep the Ocarina, but nothing else. The game must be beaten in one loop thereafter. The only other things you might keep are direct connections to Link like the Hearts to represent his skill growth over time.

[@genericwhitemale9566]

Its actually not that hard to do this. The only thing that's required (if you're playing without glitches) is speed running the Goron Temple so you can get Epona before the night of the first day to enter Ikana Valley. You don't even need to complete Woodfall Temple to do this if you just leave the temple after grabbing the bow. After this, just speed run all of the temples with Inverted SOT activated and you'll just barely make it back to clock town with a completed Oath To Order.

[@Twin_cia]

“THE ADULT TIMELINE SHOULD NOT EXIST” bro has beef with the Wind Waker

[@efisiodessi]

16:31 i have actualy saw a video where they 100% majora's mask in 3½ loop They even comfirmed that every mm time traveler is like oot final time traveler and that the goddess of time merged all timelines link made in mm and that's why the end credit has all side quest with the happy ending

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

How did they confirm it?

[@efisiodessi]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 in hyrule Historia or enciclopedia i can't remember which one

[@Twin_cia]

Jokes aside, I think I have figured out a way to make the existence of the downfall timeline make sound my theory is that when Princess Zelda was sending The Hero of Time back into the past, she triggered a 3rd timeline split to happen, a alternative reality where Link kicked ganon’s little butt and successfully sealed him away, but here’s the Tip *Link STAYS in the adult timeline* so by this, it means the downfall timeline was the original timeline destined to happen however Princess Zelda rewritten history by sending Link back into the past, therefore The Downfall timeline is the reality where The Hero of Time was NOT sent back into the past to “”regain his childhood” and stayed in the adult timeline, managing to live on, have descendants and witness his legacy as the Hero of Time, this also leads me to believe The Imprisoning War (the one mentioned in ALLTP obviously) and The Great Flood are the exact same event resulting in different outcomes, it also be the Seven Sages from ALBW are descendants of The Seven Sages from Ocarina of Time

[@TheHaddonfieldRegistry]

The reason there are two timelines post OoT: Two observers witnessed the time travel. Link is the sole traveler every time he uses the Ocarina, time is altered through HIS point of reference because his is the ONLY point of reference. In the end of the game, there are two observers who are now in totally different existences. Zelda of the future alters time, so it alters around her point of reference, but because Link is party to this travel, he is therefore another point of reference. It's like a Tree falling in the woods. Had no soul been made aware of the travel, no one would be there to observe the change, meaning there is no collapse, meaning the superposition is unknown. But two people were aware, so two timelines now manifest to reconcile these two people with disparate existences.

[@allanswain2425]

Why only 196 likes? 🤔, anyways , good video, I’m sure you’ll blow up one day

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Thanks! That means a lot, for real

[@attackboss6]

7:27 my downfall theory is there is at least ome moment you are required to to go back in time and you left an abandoned timeline

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

It is possible, since the MS time travel is pretty messy :P

[@harrygeocaris3179]

There's another theory bouncing around out there about the dawnfall timeline that focuses on the end of a link to the past. At the end of the game, Link gets his hands on the full triforce and uses it. The wish made is never stated outright but if we go by the fact that everything bad that happens over the course of the game seems to be undone in the outro, right up to bringing people who died back to life (like Link's uncle and the king at the start of the game) then we can deduce that Link wished for something along the lines of 'undo all the damage to hyrule done by Ganon'. So the theory goes that this wish may have actually resulted in the creation of a timeline where Ganon never magaged to obtain the full triforce, which than proceeded to split into the adult and child timelines. Short version... the downfall timeline didn't branch off from the timeline split in oot at all. Rather it is the original timeline, and the other 2 exist because of a wish on the triforce that was made in the downfall timeline.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Yeah that theory popped up a bunch on my first video. It works but Im not 100% sold just because I feel like usually what we play in games is what initially happens, so in OoT Link winning would come first, and the LttP-causing-Downfall-Timeline split would happen out of game. But that's just me. I dont know, I am more into this theory then I was a few months ago. I do think it works and provides a better lore reason as opposed to explaining it with physics (quantum split) or just saying "it happened just because" (bad writing)

[@darkdagger5237]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 The so called quantum split would be a natural timeline split just like when a river splits its a natural event. We see natural timeline splits in several game series usually in the form of alternate endings. Now when we look at the fallen timeline it makes sense for it to come from a natural timeline split however none exist within Ocarina of time because if one existed it would be visible within the game.

[@RronKarahoda]

Awesome breakdown! I think Zelda's use of the ocarina explains both why there are two timelines after OOT and why Link keeps his items in MM. When Zelda uses the ocarina, she is technically "the traveler" in that she is protected from the flow of time while using it. This makes Link "the traveled" in that he is granted temporary protection from time by the user of the ocarina. My thinking is that the timeline split thus happens not just because Link goes back, but also because Zelda does not. Her using the ocarina places her outside of time and her power (Time Sage + Reincarnation of the goddess) enables her to preserve the superposition of the adult timeline. She remembers the events and essentially wills the adult timeline into permanence. Going back to Link's inventory in MM. It seems to me that there's a rule: Most natural things like regular items and rupees (which are concentrated magic) can't be protected from time and so leave the inventory. Crafted items or things that contain souls (swords, boss remains, Link) can be protected, and so can travel through the rewind with him just fine.

[@johnpett1955]

In my argument for the adult timeline existing, previous timeloops can still be canon and make sense if every time the timeloop happens, 1. The person involved in the time loop vanishes from the said timeline 2. Every time loop makes a seperate universe where the original timeline in which the time loop continues, while also creating a new timeline. Basically the beginning of each time loop is a separate universe and the time just before has the person who was involved in the timeline ceses to exist in the old timeline. This kind of thing where the timeline link disappeares happens in the adult timeline and although we don't know for sure if this actually happens, we have more evidence that a separate universe happens every time a time loop occurs with the existence of the adult timeline. Yes that means that there are a bunch of universes where the moon destroyes Termina. That or the events of Majora's mask are a dream or something. This may sound convoluted, but remember, this is a world with bootstrap paradoxes like with the windmill man and the song of storms, being in an infinite time loop that's still canon so anything can happen.

[@thundercat7746]

Kinda new to the Zelda Timelines and Theorizing, so I may present a topic once discussed before. I wonder if we are missing pieces that relate to the split at Ganon vs Link with Ganon prevailing or Link winning. And another thought is what if the First Adult Link is the one that confronts Ganon while lacking the equipment needed from the past, leading to Link's defeat and the split in events. A Timeline we dont see but one that could occur. The Link that does go back to Child Link to get the Equipment from the past is the one to Defeat Ganon and lead to the Child Timeline. I dont have all the information to connect it or support it, just a thought.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Theres a theory that popped up on my TotK theory video, that says Link losing is what happens in ocarina, so the downfall timeline is the original one. LttP Link wishing on the triforce at the end of the game wishes to undo all of Ganon's evil deeds, including defeating Link in OoT, so that I guess creates a split where Ganon loses, so then the adult timeline happens, and then the child etc

[@PowerThrash]

I think the way the master sword time travel works is that it puts Link in (magical, reversible) stasis, but he only stays for the full 7 year period starting from the very final time he takes the sword out. So each time he goes back to the past he actually wakes up from stasis early, and goes back into stasis when he puts the sword back. So it's always 7 years, but the time it commences properly happens after he's already done everything he needed to in the past.

[@chloexsoliel]

the section about the master sword time travel not making sense hurt my head in a good way

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Mine too. That's why this video took so long to come out :P

[@darkdagger5237]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 Here's a problem with your understanding of Ocarina of time time travel. If time flowed on both sides then when Link goes back to young link time Ganon would have already entered the sacred realm and obtained the triforce of power and begun his invasion castle town would have suffered from this however there is no sign of this happening when Link goes back in time. This all means that link is NOT traveling in units of measurement he is traveling by events he is going back to right before he pulled the sword. So to an outside perspective link grabs the sword ready to pull it and then changes his mind this fixes your time gap problem.

[@ZorusSerif]

The sword could just send you back & rewind your body when u go back that might work lol

[@UltimateTobi]

Nicely detailed video. Enjoyed it!

[@lorithurston1771]

Can't wait to see how you apply the time travel understanding established through OOT/MM to the other games! Great vid - well explained!

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Oracle of Ages will kill me, but its pretty tame until Skyward Sword.

[@sisiwawa]

incredible video!

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Thank you :D

[@Cri_Jackal]

Nothing insists that the timelines of a time loop get erased every time the loop resets, it's entirely possible that every time link went back to the first day in Majora's Mask, it left behind a doomed timeline where Termina was destroyed and the mask won. Same thing applies with OoT.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

It is possible but again, the in game and out of game evidence says its a standard time loop (single timeline)

[@Max-qb5ui]

I haven’t finished the video yet so I don’t know if you’ve covered this, but I don’t really understand how much progress young link had already made when he gets sent back to the past by Zelda. If he’s in the room with the Master Sword then he has to have all of the Spiritual Stones right? That means that he was sent back to right before he pulled the sword, meaning he had just learned the song of time. But when Link returns to see Zelda, it almost looks like she’s never seen him before. In Majora’s Mask, she also teaches him the song of time, which he should already know at that point. If Link had already made all the progress he originally had in the child timeline, then Zelda should have escaped the castle with Impa and go into hiding, but she’s not. I’m not sure if its supposed to take place before Link had made any progress in the child portion of oot, or after he had already done everything since there’s so much conflicting evidence. Skull Kid even remembers Link as the kid who taught him a song in the woods, which would also only be possible is he had made the progress.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Hi Max! Yeah historia says its just before he takes the sword. But the last cutscene implies its the first time he ever meets her. All of your points are 100%. Honestly I just want to blame Nintendo for not keeping things consistent

[@Max-qb5ui]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 probably is just a mistake, these games were made in the 90s when people didn’t care as much about this stuff so I can’t blame them too much. Link definitely did a lot of stuff after returning from Termina though, we know he had kids with Malon and all that, he left his bow with the Gorons, entrusted the Master Sword to Skull Kid, etc. I think after Majora’s Mask, he returned to Hyrule and did a lot of the same stuff that he originally had done before the timeline split.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@Max-qb5ui For sure. We also have to figure out when Ganondorf gets sealed in the Twilight Realm, because that involved sages, but it sounds like he gets sealed soon after Link warns Zelda right? Because his Triforce activates during the execution

[@Max-qb5ui]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I think there was another war that ended in Ganon being sealed sometime after Majora’s Mask. Maybe Link died in this war and became the Hero’s shade, but I think it’s just as likely that he just died of old age but had his regrets about not being remembered. Do we ever learn who the sages in twilight princess were though? They can’t be the ocarina of time ones since they look so different. I haven’t played TP in years so I may be forgetting but I don’t think their identities were ever revealed?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@Max-qb5ui I dont think we do? Theyre just like generic avatars

[@goldenlotus3046]

I don't understand the problem with link going back to the past while he's sealed in the sacred realm. When link goes back to the past, his past self is still sealed/asleep within the sacred realm. There's no issues at all. And then he leaves the past to return to the future. Time continues to flow naturally. The first time he draws the master sword he isn't time traveling. He's sealed within the sacred realm for those 7 years...while his future self returns to grab the lens of truth and gauntlets while he sleeps.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

The problem is Link ages, meaning he's a part of the flow of time. So when he goes back, time is technically reversing backwards to the point when he first touches the sword. Meaning him awakening the first 3 sages never happens, and it never re-happens because when young link touches the sword again, he goes forward 7 years from that moment, which would pass the period of time when he was first an adult and completed those first 3 temples. If the time travel worked like in your example, Link would return to the past as an adult because he left the flow of time and re-entered in the past. But that doesn't happen.

[@goldenlotus3046]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 Oaky i feel you. The issue comes up because when link goes back to the past he returns to his younger body. I see the paradox you're talking about. Maybe, we can view it like this; When he first draws the master sword, his body and spirit are sealed within the sacred realm until he wakes up 7 years later. So those entire 7 years, his spirit is held in stasis until the time for the hero to save hyrue arrives. The first time Link returns the master sword and goes back to the past, however, maybe what happens is his future self's spirit/consciousness is what's sent to the past...maybe inhabiting his younger self's body as he steps out of the sacred realm. From link's perspective he's just placing the sword in the pedestal, blinded by blue light, then finds himself in his younger self's body back in the past. That would solve all paradoxes. His past self's spirit would remain sealed within the sacred realm, and also explains why future link's spirit is in a younger body even though he aged 7 years. And whenever he returns to the future...his younger self's body is simply resealed within the sacred realm along with his spirit....while his future self's spirit/consciousness returns to his adult body.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@goldenlotus3046 I guess you'd still get a paradox because Link doesn't have the lens and gauntlets the first time he's sealed. The first time Link awakes as an adult, he doesn't have those items. So if his consciousness goes back to get those items as a child, then he should have had them the first time he awoke as an adult.

[@jonieljoestarzawarudo8172]

Pretty good video, but there's something I don't understand about the description. What does MC stand for?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

MS master sword. Thats my fault. Should have been MS. Changing it now :P

[@GealuGalu]

At first he doesn't time travel. He's in cryo. When he puts the sword back, then the sword time travels. Zelda never needed to ocarina him back, OoT would be better written and make more sense with the little retcon that after ganon fight, he puts the master sword back and then everything else is the exact same.

[@giuliazanini9068]

why isn’t the the existence of multiple links in ocarina a major problem? every time he goes back in time there should be a child link either in deep master sword slumber in the temple of time, or in the kokiri forest when he goes back to warn zelda. what happened to those links?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

It's technically time dilation because Link ages so when he goes back it's time reversing by 7 years, meaning everything he did in the future reverses, but then when he goes back to the future he goes 7 years forward which would take him past the period of time he first was an adult. Its just a mess

[@AidanRatnage]

You could say that every time loop another universe is created where Termina is destroyed by the moon.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

The only problem is, if that were true then when Link goes back to the start of the loop it'd be an alternate timeline and there'd be 2 Links

[@AidanRatnage]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 No because it's a different parallel timeline from the previous loop. At least that's how I see it.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@AidanRatnage That's not really how it works tbh though. In game it's shown how its the same 3 days restarted. Also fun fact MM was inspired by the 1998 movie Run Lola Run, which also features a time loop. Wish I knew that before I started the video lol

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@AidanRatnage Also even if it was a different parallel timeline, there'd also be 2 links: The link from the original and the link from the other parallel timeline. So it doesn't really work.

[@Cri_Jackal]

​​@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 The timeline resets back to the first day and Link keeps all his memories of the previous loop: Link's consciousness is being transported back into his past body. Link leaves behind the timeline every time he goes back, creating a timeline split: Link's consciousness is being transported back in his past body. This is a pointless line of argument, regardless of either option is true, the result is the same, it's very clear that Link is never physically transports his body into the past in any circumstance.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

I have a different theory, on the creation of the downfall timeline. Originally, there was no time-traveling, and there was no chance for Link to win. He still faces Ganondorf, as a child, and looses. One of the two Triforce wishes, to fix Hyrule, retroactively allows time travel, which leads to the game we played, then the other timelines. (I preffer the wish at the end of Zelda 2, because it is the last game in that timeline.) Have you herd of time echoes? A time echo overlaps the past onto the present, without actually altering the past, but the present is altered by the actions that take place. The most obvious example of this is in Skyward Sword, with the time shift stones. They allow Link to pluck the same flower, over and over, without changing the past, but keeps the flowers in the present as though he had. The construct captain also seems to be aware of the effects of the time shift stone, just as the player is. This is what I think is happening in Majorah's mask, but with a slight twist; Link is actually stuck in the last few moments, and sending echoes of himself back. With each iteration, the present is altered, as though this new past has happened. Link keeps the key items because he now has them in the present, and the echo of that item is sent back as well. The picking and choosing of items is still problematic, except for the rupies, if you subscribe to the idea that they are magic, meaning that they may be fueling the magic at play.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Ive heard of the LttP Triforce Wish Theory. Im slowly coming around to it :D Time echoes sound like Temporal merging, which I dislike because I dont agree with the logic. Im currently playing through SS right now since its been awhile for me but part 3 of this series is just for that game. MM is definitely a time loop. Ive seen a couple videos of rupees being magic and its an interesting idea.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I wouldn't say that Time echoes are anything like temporal merging. (I also find the logic for that to be flawed.) No, a time Echo is literally that, just an echo, overlapping wave patterns. They don't change the past, but do effect the present. A time echo would allow me to replicate the past of the wild west, and grab the gun that was used to kill Billy the Kid. After the effect ends, I still have the gun, but the past never changed. Billy still got shot by that gun. Another way to look at it, is to change a temporary copy of events, not the real events.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

@@RyuuKageDesu Gotcha. This feels like what the timeshift stones in SS do. They cant literally create a bubble that leads to that area in the past, because then youd be changing the past while somehow not affecting the future. BUT an echo makes sense, or if the stones just "restore" everything in the bubble to how it used to be, or make it similar to how it was

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I think you have the idea, now.

[@darkdagger5237]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 Another time we see temporal echos is in Twilight princess the temple of time dungeon. We know its not time travel because the dominion rod instantly aged upon leaving the dungeon which means if it was time travel then Link would have disintegrated by the same rules.

[@Moukrea]

I guess it has been discussed a thousand times... But what about the branching timelines are just a matter of choices, choices that are not shown in the game (besides the child timeline)? By that I mean what if the two other timelines are just possible outcomes of the final fight, one where Zelda doesn't send back Link to its young past and he just grow old, dies and the legend continues (the timeline goes in a straight line, the "Adult" timeline), one, which is just a possibility, being the case where Link gets killed (alternate universe/reality/timeline, the "Downfall" timeline), and one (shown in-game) where Zelda send back Link in time, where he warns Zelda, creating an alternate timeline (the "Child" timeline)... This is going the "Every choices, yes/no answer, decision or atome level variation is leading into a parallel universe" thoery, giving an infinite number of alternate universes/timeline throughout the whole game, where Nintendo actually developed upon 3 of them (the Child/Adult/Downfall timelines) It seems to fit pretty well, but maybe there's something that can prove me wrong?

[@darkdagger5237]

You just described a temporal singularity those are generally world ending events.

[@ScienceD9000]

What if the timeline where Link fails in Majora's mask continue on but end up in the same result of Termina is dead and Link is gone, which sounds similar to the downfall timeline. What if he downfall timeline happens after the moon destroys Termina and Link is gone.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

There is no timeline where Link fails in MM because the 3 day cycle always resets at the end, until the final loop when Link stops the moon from falling. And the downfall timeline specifically splits during the final battle with Ganon in OoT in the Adult Timeline

[@marshallballa6911]

I think you misinterpret the Master Sword time travel mechanics. It's not child link going back in time, it's more like the X men movie, where Hugh Jackman's future consciousness inhabits the body of his younger self, but with his current identity Child link's body is used at will because it's safely sealed, but he has his adult memories still Your video does give me a new idea for the Downfall timeline, it's what occurs in the "child" timeline where adult link never shows up. Pulling the Master Sword created this original split, then zelda creates the new child timeline where link gets his body back, preventing the backstory from Alttp and creating the scene where gdorf is sent to the twilight realm instead

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

But I mentioned that in the video, if it is Link's consciousness thats going back and forth, it still causes problems. And the downfall timeline is confirmed to split during the final battle with Ganon

[@marshallballa6911]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 yeah, I'm not sold on it It makes more sense that link simply wasn't in that timeline anymore, it makes the backstory in Alttp work, as it's explicitly stated to us that Ganondorf had the entire triforce AND we see the Twinrova sisters again in the same timeline later on

[@Echohoody]

Ever since 1998, I always found the time travel in OOT peculiar. I always understood link doesn’t really time travel but rather is in a deep stasis. I never understood the in-canon reason why he was able to get sent back in time each time he puts the master sword in the pedestal because how can you go back if you were just traveling forward in time during a deep sleep?

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Yeah it's broken. Technically it's time dilation, but even then it still doesn't work with the story

[@Vadarth]

@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 I always understood that it was Link’s mind/spirit/etc. being sent back to the moment before his body enters stasis, so then his body just wouldn’t be brought into stasis yet. As for the items, one could maybe say it’s similar-ish to the uncertainty principle (Link had to know the item not only exists, but that it’s location is on his person, to be able to see and use them in the future; essentially, until he is able to first perceive them for himself, they are essentially invisible or even immaterial to him), or to the lens of truth (ignoring the fact that you can still interact with a lot of invisible stuff without it, lol). Granted, this is all for just OoT; not sure how it would apply to MM until I’ve watched that part of the video (I would have watched it all first, but I didn’t want to forget any of this).

[@Vadarth]

Oh, and I always just assumed Rauru (spelling?) or Hylia or such opened the door to the Master Sword room for Link at the end of the game, lol (would be kind of dick move otherwise).

[@Vadarth]

@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 ok, finished the video! As for MM, I believe the Ocarina of Time is quantum entangled with Link, and similarly does the same for all of his key items (so every time he travels back, the key items all instantly teleport into Link’s inventory - or rather, their position in space-time got updated). Still thinking on how to explain away OoT’s ending though; can’t believe I never saw/realized the issues there before. The best I have so far is that his prior location in space-time got similarly “updated” when sent back at the end.

[@Vadarth]

In fact, perhaps Link’s prophetic dream at the beginning of OoT is the result of an echo or such through time, due to sending Link back so far, yet still with all his memories intact, so a bit sort of “bled through” (to the original Link who eventually goes on to open the door to the Master Sword and get sealed and wake up in the future and beat Ganon and etc.). Idk if that actually makes sense though, just kind of spitballing rn.

[@Ravel327]

This was excellent man. I loved revisiting OoT and even more so, MM. I would love to see both games get an open world remake, but as long as they do not do the bs retcon of having Termina only be a temporary dream world. Never, for my own canon Termina will always be real as it was when the game came out

[@aabattery5]

What a banger video

[@IndigoTeddy]

The Door of Time isn't open, its just that it didn't load in because of the room load trigger being in that small corridor. Still an interesting video. Edit: the 1st part is a joke about speedrunners skipping opening the Door of Time

[@darkdagger5237]

Link walks out of the chamber and the door seals behind him which means that its open.

[@IndigoTeddy]

@@darkdagger5237 I was making a joke about how speedrunners skip opening the Door of Time, sorry if it wasn't clear

[@darkdagger5237]

@@IndigoTeddy Its ok just make it more clear in the future.

[@sykune]

Bessde game play mechanic an in lore reason why Link keeps key items is due to memory. The newer Zelda lore books have stated that termina was dream world created by majoras mask through the skull kid and link memories. If you keep you memories in the tme loop and the masks also consist of memories they are counted as collected memories. As for the other key items the ocarina is used to intiate the time travel so its basically the time machine, so why would you lose it. As for the hook shot, the heros bow and such. The dream world is being resuffled everytime the song of time is played so when link gains a new item it becomes linked to him via memory so when the world is reshuffled its taken out the deck, this can be seen when you go to reopen a chest that contained an items it now only holds placeholder rupee.

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Man I hate that they consider Termina a dream world. Skull kid existed in Termina before he got the mask. I think they forgot that part 🤣

[@fizzle7421]

Schrodinger's Link

[@atkane]

Downfall timeline is plausible because the split Triforce is so close to itself without being fully reunited under the control of a single individual, causing instability. Perhaps Link's sealing refers to a magical ritual that imbues his youth life force, at pace for seven years, into either the Master Sword or pedestal in the Temple of Time in a way that it can be reclaimed & lived later on, piecemeal. This could make adult Zelda's actions at the finale ironically unnecessary, spawning the troublesome third timeline. Could be it was this double-instability of the Master Sword's seal on Link's spirit & Zelda's Lullaby that contributed to the origins of the Downfall Timeline as well. She did play Zelda's Lullaby & not the Song of Time, right? That makes it different than in MM. Kakariko is a place both where Link makes physical contact with Sheik (two pieces of Triforce together) & where he must necessarily travel back in time for the Lens of Truth under the well-- which is very close to the windmill where we find the Song of Storms anomaly. Link does touch Sheik after she's ragdolled, but in the Gerudo desert, she slips away before Link can get close enough to cause another anomaly. The more pieces of Triforce that are in contact when you're messing with time, the bigger the consequences.

[@dragoncraft618]

A question: Would this count as the same time loop as the Song of Storms? kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIG2lHqXftOrhtE

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

TLDR yes :D Ok so yep they're are both Causal Loops: future thing causes past thing which causes future thing. The guy who throws the peach only has the peach because his future self threw it at him. Causal loops get a little more specific too. They are both known as Bootstrap Paradoxes, which are causal loops where an item or information has no origin. The peach never exists outside or after the loop. It is caught in an eternal cycle of getting thrown in the past, and getting picked up and taken into the future until the point where the Traveller goes back to throw it in the past. The Song of Storms is the same idea as it has no origin, like the peach. Its always existed within the loop, but the knowledge of the song continues after. The 2 examples are slightly different as the physical Peach itself never leaves the loop, where as Link continues to know the SoS after he leaves the loop. The Song would be exactly like the Peach example if just say Link learned it from a book or piece of paper. If in the future, the phonogram man gave Link the paper with the SoS on it, then Link took it back and gave that paper to the phonogram man in the past, then that's where the phonogram man got the paper to give to Link, to keep the cycle going. The paper with the song on it would never leave that loop, just like the peach. The peach only existing within the Loop is also known as a Closed Causal Loop, because from the peach's perspective it never leaves. TBH classifying Causal Loops as Open or Closed is tricky IMO so I wouldn't worry about the specifics of that too much. Thought I'd mention it anyway just in case. Sorry for the long reply. In general, yes SoS and Peach Example are both Bootstrap Paradoxes, which is a sub category of Causal Loops.

[@Cri_Jackal]

What you explained with the Master Sword time travel also completely fucks the Song of Storms, the Phonogram Man already knows the Song of Storms in the future before Link ever travels backwards in time, but each time jump with the Master Sword _should_ be creating a timeline split, meaning every timeline created in this mess that doesn't complete the loop is a time paradox. The Phonogram Man knew the Song of Storms in the future, Link travels back in time to get the Lens of Truth, creating a timeline split, meaning that initial version fo the Phanogram Man never actually learned the Song of Storms, he never met Link in the past, the loop doesn't make sense. The Master Sword time travel is combining retroactive time travel, where changes in the past alter the future directly instead of splitting the timeline, AND causal loops. A story _can_ have both of these, but the retroactive time travel has to be a separate power that supercedes causal loops (cough -Homestuck- cough), but you can't use retroactive time travel to create a loop that existed before the retroactive time travel was even used, that leaves the loop with an empty origin, a blank space in history where nothing exists, a true paradox. Unless paradoxes as a plot element are an intentional part of what you're doing, this is a big fuck up. (if you ever do touch homestuck you're going to have your mind blown by how logical and consistent it's able to be while combining ALL forms of time travel, without having them contradict each other at any point, there's literally only 1 plot hole in the whole story, and it's not even because of any of the time travel, the author literally just forgot to explain how and when a certain switch was flipped)

[@thinkingatmaxvolume1992]

Yeah, the MS messes up the timeline in general, like I explained in the video. Retroactive time travel is TEMPORAL MERGING and that breaks a causal loop so no, you can't have them both at the same time. The point of a causal loop is that the same exact events happen every time and that's what perpetuates the loop. TEMPORAL MERGING breaks this because then the future is different which means the Causal Loop events are different. Even if the Traveller still goes back in the changed future, it's not the same event from the original timeline. You CAN have Causal Loops and SELF HEALING TIMELINE theory, because if events deviate from the original timeline, the timeline itself will cause events to happen to redirect itself to how it should be, and this is because the future is still not changed. I have no idea what Homestuck is, but if the author tried to combine TEMPORAL MERGING with Causal Loops, it sounds like they got their time travel wrong. But technically they are the author so they can do whatever they want, even if it shouldn't make sense

[@Cri_Jackal]

@@thinkingatmaxvolume1992 In Homestuck, for the majority of the comic, it's just timeline splits and causal loops. Later on one of the characters gets a power that supercedes all other forms of time travel, allowing him to retroactively change events while having them still lead to the same future. Again, if you're doing both, you have to give the temporal merging ability a higher status in order for it to even function. To elaborate, the ability he gets allows him to travel through the _webcomic,_ not time, which is why it supercedes time travel, it's like Undertale where the fact that the world is fictional is itself a plot element. Undertale is directly inspired by Homestuck, the creator, Toby Fox, lived with the author of Homestuck for several years, and was the lead music coordinator for the music team. Homestuck was inescapable around 2011 and 2012, it was so popular that one of its flash animations crashed the entirety of _Newgrounds._

[@darkdagger5237]

The song of storms is NOT a paradox your argument is that the windmill guy ONLY knows the song because Link played it for him this is not true as he is literally playing the song of storms on his instrument through the ENTIRE game. If you talk to him before playing the song he claims to be composing a song inspired by the windmill and then he says "around and around and around..." the quote is longer but you get the idea. Now this sounds like two things the windmill and time paradoxes its designed to LOOK like a paradox but not BE a paradox.

[@Fragmentsinfractals488]

@@darkdagger5237 Yes. It is just the Song doesn't have Power when Windmill guy plays it, but does when Link, the Chosen, does. He basically "calls the Gods" when he does it.

[@DillonMaynard]

I believe the reason the Child and Adult Timelines co-exist is because Zelda is the one to send Link back in time. Whenever Link used the Ocarina, it created a clean slate because he was the sole creator of the loop. If the Adult Timeline never happens, then Zelda can't send Link back in time to prevent the Adult Timeline from happening. A paradox.