TMM Reacts to Lord Aris Spittin Facts

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[@suhail1607]

I would pay top dollar to see TMM &Aris as commentators in tournaments

[@alexval9941413]

Hey alright

[@gaetanoisgro6710]

I mean, that would be glorious. I really think it would improve tournaments share by a lot since both Aris and TMM are able to entertain so naturally.

[@RuTo94]

It would be a very unique commentary because Aris just says anything top of his head and just goes with it LOL 😂

[@3am4am]

I thought he commentated evo once but could’ve heard wrong

[@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot]

If only Aris would ever leave his damn house anymore lul

[@tcbbctagain572]

"You shouldn't have talked, now you got the whole chat laughing at you" One of my favorite lines from Aris ever

[@Itachi_gt3rs]

Which video

[@nabillun]

@@Itachi_gt3rs whaddya mean which video? That's every other time he flames someone for sharing a dumb opinion in chat KEKW at least the sentiment if not the quote verbatim

[@WebShaman01]

@@Itachi_gt3rs You shouldn't have posted! Now you have the whole youTube channel laughing at you!

[@NineEight_Nine]

They have a funny relationship, TMM doesn't "talk" to Aris but Aris increasees TMM viewer count because he's always telling people to watch for Tekken

[@turgonnaish]

Aris and TMM are the two people who most helped my Tekken game. Hail to both of them!

[@ShiftingCloudsYT]

Yep. Shame Aris stopped playing cuz of how toxic the community is for a game he loves. I learned a lot just from watching him. I still watch top players but I mixed it up watching my own gameplay. That’ll take you to the next level.

[@aadliafiq]

@@ShiftingCloudsYT toxicity he can handle just fine he stopped playing because t7 online is so trash and he got stream snipe a lot

[@josepartida1711]

@@aadliafiq nah he just hates Tekken fans 😂 But yeah Online sucks

[@appleaccount7608]

I learned so much about Tekken from that Hagrid looking man right there.

[@lilcrazyaaron209]

you should tell him that on aris' twitch channel

[@sonofaballer96]

@@lilcrazyaaron209 nice setup

[@troytheboy1985]

@@sonofaballer96 hehehe that kids not ready

[@lukehart7225]

😂😂😂😂

[@askaflamininja]

Aris is my favourite commenter by far, I'll watch him play anything he's fuckin hillarious. But I've learned more about the game from TMM.

[@SirBranDon24]

Dude his ebola 3 playthrough was too good

[@Weda_Bretajune]

@@SirBranDon24 the cutscenes haha

[@godofpharts]

Aris dropping a Mirror in Path of Exile and not even knowing what he had was peak content imo

[@Mr440c]

That's because you had to watch Aris since TTT2 days. Believe it or not he was making guides about the game.

[@twitchoff1114]

@@Mr440c Yeah, Aris' guides were the shit man. He was like a genius at work, he explained the basics of fighting game in such a unique manner - like finding pair of moves that complement each other and many more. I miss those guides.

[@TheW11slim]

If Tokido went to it that’s all you need to know. He’s known for going for any & every advantage in fighting games. He’s not dropping years of stick play for a Hitbox for no reason.

[@stormapproach8041]

Aris and TMM are the real OGs of Tekken's Butthash Online Content.

[@jadedbreadncircus9159]

HitBox was the entire reason I actually got into fighting games. I could never get clean L/R on an arcade stick, & the d-pad & trigger buttons were problems on a pad. Aside from a recent ESD death to my SnackBox, I've loved SF6 constantly since release. It DID take like 4 months to get used to the leverless layout though.

[@genejas]

This is 100% on the devs IMHO. 4 frame super (although the input requires preparation and is incredibly awkward) in street fighter is only possible due to input leniency. In older street fighters this is completely impossible since diagonals are required. For the tekken specific examples like sidestep that could be patched in either direction. The charge character thing is bullcrap tho, that doesn't work like that.

[@fernandopires135]

I do think you can charge and walk forward in sf2 but yeah, everywhere else thats not how it works

[@genejas]

@@fernandopires135 not on a hitbox or a mixbox. That was "patched out" in hardware. On keyboard, yeah maybe, but it depends on the emulator

[@drftr6073]

yeah, last input does allow for frame perfect return from forward to back and sf6 guile's new "perfect boom" will unfortunately be incredibly easy to do as well since you can use the same hand for both buttons, but I think neutral socd cleaning is already good enough at mitigating the game breaking aspects of cardinal direction buttons if not for the weird input leniency that is unique to every game that may allow it to do dubious and funky stuff.

[@crystalnite]

The irony about input leniency, though, is that it seems designed to mitigate the difficulty of precise command inputs on stick/pad. Now that hitboxes do away with the precision hurdle, they can even further exploit the game's adaptation for its inherent difficulty.

[@genejas]

@@crystalnite I don't know about that. It's easy to miss diagonals in quarter circles or especially half circles (or even the down input) on leverless, but i never miss them on pad or stick. The crossup is a different story, where you get the advantages of both, and the downsides of neither i guess

[@SebuKaz]

I wish TMM watched the whole video, some great points were still in there as well as the hilarious moments Aris usually brings

[@jaywalker3553]

Aris is funny as fuk he always keeps it real no matter what 😭

[@ant_989]

Yeah this is the best comedy on the planet

[@jaywalker3553]

@@ant_989 no kidding 😭

[@lukehart7225]

Around the 10 minute mark he talks about some good tekken playa’s what’s their names??

[@teky]

Aris is one the funniest dudes on the planet

[@ant_989]

Yep

[@ioannisnavrozidis2733]

Technically a playstation controller can press 2 directions at the same time as well. Both SFV and T7 allow the usage of DPAD and Analog at the same time so you can still cancel directions without letting go of the first one.

[@ZhaneBadguy]

I'm old and love my arcade sticks but I also got a Hori Fightpad. Depending on the game that thing is easy mode. But Hitboxes and modern Keyboards are on a whole other level.

[@IAMOP]

Keyboard players trying to stay low key right now.

[@wildhynagames7911]

I think these guys have nothing better to discuss after this game is out for so many years... People need something to cry about every now and then.

[@Section8dc]

Keyboard player in the fgc: wow thats cool If you play hitbox: you cheating filth! 😂😂

[@toutlemondesalut]

@@wildhynagames7911 They miss TTT2

[@hazemnada798]

On a controller you can use the pad to enter a direction and the analog stick to enter the opposite direction No macros needed.

[@disonreigns]

Devilster is on keyboard too that's why he is so precise

[@sparksdojo9091]

great video! love you and love aris! btw I'm pretty sure if I'm not mistaken that Nuckledu was quoted as holding the left analog stick down with one finger to charge with guile while using dpad to do another input. it's not really the same as free electrics really at all but still an interesting thing to throw in the discussion.

[@Vel_Vivi]

Man you did Aris so dirty with that old picture of him lol

[@reyrivera8002]

SOCD Cleaner exists to eliminate inputs that are impossible. You can't input opposite directions in a hitbox. The game registers neutral or up. There is only an advantage just for travel time and socd inputs having a way to push neutral at will. There are no illegal inputs

[@narwhalgamingvariety]

Everyone keeps repeating the dual input thing but any homebrew box that is capable of doing that is already banned

[@deciett]

@@narwhalgamingvariety and either way, the game should be accounting for these situations with its own input cleaning. If the controller can send inputs that break the game, the devs need to reconsider their input processing to account for it. It should be treated like any other exploit.

[@narwhalgamingvariety]

@@deciett Yes. This is the correct take. I am a developer myself and in my honest opinion the rise of new controllers have simply made people aware of the shortcomings FGs have in their inner-workings. These developers are notoriously behind the times and technology (10+ years and we still can't guarantee working online). They just got lazy because the niche of players were willing to self police. No other genre would try to tell people what controller someone decides to use when they could just fix it at the engine level.

[@xDINMORx1]

"The game registers neutral or up" Yes, that is the advantage as TMM explains when he talks about being able to sidestep after Kaz/Hei f+4. Also most SOCDs are either set to register either the first or the last input last which has it's own problems entirely. Just because your hitbox has a SOCD does not mean it fixes all the inherent problems with hitboxes.

[@guitaroach]

Having 'neutral' as an actual input isnt currently illegal, but it is something that sticks & (arguably) pad cannot do at all. Its not a macro, but its not something to overlook.

[@Hxnsson]

You can't charge whilst walking forward, everything else in the video i pretty much agree with. I used to play on keyboard and play Urien so i've tested this.

[@narimandk6387]

Its true. It is not possible with a standard hitbox or mixbox

[@galtar862]

@@narimandk6387 In SFV? It's absolutely impossible. I think only SFII had that issue, of games that people still play realistically. SFV's forward plus back socd results in forward, which is reasonable (although, confusingly, they want SOCD to clean to neutral in tournament rules, so who knows what's up there,) but walking charge is not possible at all in street fighters 3, 4, or 5.

[@narimandk6387]

@@galtar862 I guess it is possible to some cheating not that bad but almost a game breaking sonic boom and that was why daigo's stick was banned once. it is having two separate set of directional buttons, brianf was talking about it

[@zachmac3824]

FYI, you can totally use socd match practically on dualshock and dualsense. Place all the buttons on the triggers and bumpers, then you have both hands to use for the pad and left stick. I've played with it, it's definitely a step up on normal pad movement

[@drftr6073]

in 2d games you can already use your right hand on the left stick to trigger socd for "frame perfect" sonic booms. there area already pad players who play like this.

[@DrKatz31]

Paddles also, I have a buddy who uses his paddles for tricks

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@AZAZEL_TK]

What’s SOCD?

[@Mathghamhan]

I’m glad you did post it to KZbin.

[@Noum77]

I once asked Super Akouma "What's the most difficult technic to do on a hitbox?". He just replied "nothing!"

[@Lemon_Force]

That's not the issue in the first place either. But, shit like Ivy's SS or CS command grabs in Soul Calibur I would say are easier to do on stick/pad than hitbox.

[@josepartida1711]

NOUM: Super Akouma, what’s the most difficult technique to do on a hitbox? Super Akouma: Rien

[@catethps]

playing right side xP

[@CineGoodog]

so? Just buy one or make one yourself, problem solved.

[@GazettiSF]

You can input back,forward,back then hit the button for charge moves to maximize your charge with those moves. There’s a speed difference still, but you can still do the same thing he’s describing

[@RanEncounter]

But you cannot push forward and backward at the same time.

[@GazettiSF]

@@RanEncounter yeah but without letting go of one of them you aren’t getting the input. It’s the same difference in that case.

[@RanEncounter]

@@GazettiSF But you get the constant backwards input. Just let go of forward and you block. You are still charging the move. You really are not making the argument you think you are.

[@GazettiSF]

@@RanEncounter if both inputs are being held, the controller and game reads neutral. you arent getting either. by doing the charge input like i said before, you are getting the same charge time that aris is describing.

[@RanEncounter]

@@GazettiSF "if both inputs are being held, the controller and game reads neutral. " This heavily changes from game to game. Especially when charge buffering is in the game. " you arent getting either" Just because it says neutral does not mean you are not getting a charge. I really don't think you understand how different games work. " by doing the charge input like i said before, you are getting the same charge time that aris is describing." Again it really depends on the game. If you hold both buttons you get neutral in some games, but you can also map the buttons to not do that. Even the controllers have different logic. For example computer keyboards you can have a toggle that makes it either neutral, both together or the first/last button pushed. No modification needed.

[@nekierin6402]

I am making a homemade hitbox and the reason is because my keyboard keeps staggering on certain keys like d, but I have several arcadde sticks with enough buttons, I am just lazy and I want to do better faster. It's like becoming akuma and using the Satusui no Hado. also I am pretty sure the hitbox i am making won't be allowed in major events but I don't even have locals

[@greytailz]

How do you sidestep to the foreground on force crouch with keyboards/hitbox Ive been playing on keyboard this whole time and have no idea how to do that.

[@duketea_]

You cannot forward dash while charging. It will register as neutral. This is referred to as SOCD cleaning. However you CAN charge pretty much immediately after pressing forward, as Aris mentions. I don’t see why the argument has become that Hitbox is cheating instead of how the other controllers are inferior and they could use some changes in order to keep up.

[@ARMarTy_]

That's what I think, the discussion is mainly " How is this not cheating " where I think in reality, it's more " How is this cheating in the first place ? " I mean I'm not an expert on the subject I'm open to both sides, but I don't see how it's 100% cheating when it seems the reality with two inputs is a bit different + isn't just mixbox / hitbox controller just a bit better ? I don't know, just seems a bit weird

[@TheFeaars]

@@ARMarTy_v

[@dacatindahat8275]

The games are not meant to be played this way. That's all there is to it. It's a controller designed to make thing that aren't possible on others possible.

[@dyn0spectrum]

Anyone who grew up gaming in the 90's arcades was homies with an Aris at their local arcade. He is legit O.G.

[@QDogg]

Real talk! 👍🏿

[@nabillun]

"an aris" atpCap archetypical stoner

[@theSUICIDEfox]

I have an Xbox Elite v2 I can map Dpad to paddles and press a direction on the Dpad and the opposite direction on the paddle. *_Is that cheating?_*

[@countlessbathory1485]

tmm and aris need to collab you guys will work well together talking about anything.

[@AdamHen]

Aris' mods are immediate with the shots. I truly love his insight when he's really telling how it is.

[@Goteiii]

Yup, totally agree. I play on stick because it's easier on my hands and I can play for hours without my fingers hurting (pad) or my hand going numb (keyboard) But when I was playing keyboard my execution with Kazuya in just a couple months was unreal. I main Law and I can't dss on keyboard or pad because I get the timing wrong by pressing b,f,f faster than I should because the directions can be pressed faster with these controllers.

[@CamXXL]

Nearly +1000 new twitch subs in just a month or two Congrats father

[@ZiegenMeisterV1]

just imagine blockpunishing with bryans jet upper. that must be sooo much easier

[@Feetism]

I think going forward, FG's will be designed to circumvent these advantages because devs absolutely want games to be accessible.

[@MansMan42069]

Hard to do that when hardware-side SOCD cleaners manipulate the inputs that get sent to the game. Left + right = neutral from a Hitbox means the game code can't tell.

[@epicon6]

This issue won't be solved in Tekken 8 or maybe ever unless they ban everything but traditional pads and arcade sticks in tournaments.

[@MansMan42069]

@@epicon6 Default pads still have 2 movement levers that can be operated independently. So even with just stick and pad, Tekken 8 has to have SOCD cleaning in the game code from the get go.

[@davidburke4101]

@@MansMan42069 You actually don't need native in-game SOCD cleaning to fix that. Dpad and analog are two separate inputs as far as game controllers are concerned. If dpad and analog counted as a single input you wouldn't be able to have games where you could run and press the dpad to switch between weapons for example. Simply blocking analog, or locking directional input to one or the other completely solves this issue.

[@MansMan42069]

@@davidburke4101 I know. Games could easily disable the left stick and not require a SOCD cleaner. But that won't work for leverless, since each direction is a discrete button and you can't disable it permanently.

[@marcjohnson1665]

I main Zafina and I play on keyboard... I realized over 20 years ago keyboard was best for fighting games and it took a LONG time to feel most comfortable on one. I KBD by holding back (constant), tapping forward, neutral, down, neutral, forward, neutral down... sometimes you gotta hit that first forward twice to get it going. I barely bother blocking. It's really THAT simple.

[@NicoSleepyLeen]

Agree, keyboard is amazing, it's quite complicated to do stuff like Geese's Raging Storm but for KBD and other stuff it's really easy I just hold back, double hit F and have a good timing of D,F,D,F,D,F,D,F, same with waves I'd like to try a hitbox tho, it's like a keyboard but looks way more comfortable, and the family won't try to murder me for playing

[@jameswebber1951]

I play on keyboard too but I have to admit that it basically breaks fighting games. The whole point of movement, defending, and specials in fighting games is commitment. Even though hit box has an SOCD cleaner built in and emulators have them built in too, it doesn’t stop games from allowing a down charge and then pressing up to do like a flash kick in SFV without having to release down. That’s how the crossup arcade stick works too. If people want to use whatever controller they want online and at home, then that’s their business but I do believe there should be a tournament standard at offline events. Even without the SOCD cleaner, you always have an additional finger that is read to press ANY direction that’s macro’d to a key/button. I mean, there really isn’t an argument to be made. The issue is also with the developers who allow a gamer to use dpad and analog stick at the same with the gamepads. I can even see issues with dpads being used too.

[@Eishetth]

I prefer doing B, B, N, Db, N, B, Db... feels way more comfortable to me

[@cv64ffg47]

"Look at the time! Look at the TIME! LOOK AT THE TIIIIIIIMMME!!!"

[@betomaze4954]

Mainman, you are such a humble and cool dude. I don´t even play fighting games but i still watch your videos because i really enjoy your personality, stay strong!

[@Akaitoism]

Smacking big ol' buttons feels way more responsive than wiggling a joystick around.

[@zackfair1868]

i am a hori hayabusa noir tekken edition. i have hayabusa lever but swapped it into sanwa parts. even still if my opponent is using a mixbox i dont mind. its just so happen that they are modern fighters and us are simply the classic one like in tekken if your character has unfair advantage just simply adapt or use that broken character and join the band wagon to even the playing field. what i mean we are in a modern age now that all methods of controler are being used whether its a steering wheel if thats where you are comfortable of using..

[@Lazar-ox5bd]

technically the pad can press 2 inputs at the same time if you bind the right analog stick

[@denzopaolopalgue9890]

IMO, the best way to fix this problem is that FG game developers should include how input register work in their game and add a rule that people cannot change how input works in that. For example, Let us say this game X is released with their own input register format like left + right = left. If you used a controller that changes that default input register, then it should be bannable. If the controller doesnt break that format then it should be okay.

[@invadergame]

Can someone explain the double input argument? I only play 2d fighters and hitbox literally doesn't allow you do put in opposing directions without registering as neutral or overwriting the other (only in the case of jumping) is there something I'm missing or is the jump exclusion game breaking to Tekken?

[@tirtel1]

by holding both directions, not only you're getting neutral input, but also by releasing and then holding one of the inputs briefly you make a very fast input, that can be repeated. For 3d fighters applications like tekken, it allows for very quick sidesteps, frame perfect front dashes into blocking, and korean backdash with just 2 inputs per dash from what I remember? It's pretty incredible and nothing can compare.

[@LegendaryPlank]

@@tirtel1 That doesn't mean it's cheating, it's just better.

[@tirtel1]

@@LegendaryPlank and where did I say, that's cheating? I just showed an example. It allows you for some stupid stuff that Aris explained, but it's not cheating by itself as it doesn't display as 2 inputs, but it's the only controller that can give you neutral input by holding opposite control inputs, which by itself is a big advantage

[@LegendaryPlank]

@@tirtel1 Fair enough.

[@amirhossein1817]

@@LegendaryPlank yes, having something *better* that isn't otherwise possible for stick and pad players is what cheating is. This is aris's arguement

[@simpson6700]

charging while walking forward does not work. the hitbox has a board specifically for resolving impossible inputs. it is the same as with blocking, the advantage comes from starting your charge the frame you let go of forward, because you're already holding back.

[@2hot4u68]

The cross up stick is legal at evo. Game, set and match

[@Shibu_PL]

I mean in the 90s and early 2000s pads were considered cheating too (especially by the "elite" arcade cabins players). You couldn't even use binds in some local tournaments and that's why some legacy Tekken players learned the claw grip on pad. Nowadays button binds on controllers are considered perfectly fine by pretty much everyone in the fgc. At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller. Also, game developers are slowly dropping more complicated legacy motion inputs for the sake of being more accessible for casual players so one day this hitbox double input cheat argument will become irrelevant anyway.

[@chebil_y4967]

Motion input are a key design in fighting games, removing them will not allow you to do 6 attack buttons with command normals it will result in an entirely different game system and honestly it's not impressive nor more fun that's why a game like Street Fighter can't remove them and they are still in SF6, like imagine an invincible 3f reversal move without motion input will be just broken and removing it will not be the same. The thing that devs are doing is just making games easy like GG Strive in this game some combos and hit confirms are so easy you can just call it auto combo despite having motion inputs but they are so lenient and easy that you can't say it's hard game for new players even with motion inputs in it on the contrary, but regardless hitbox will always have an advantage and as top SF japan players are using Hitbox more and more it will becomes more common.

[@Hfidon]

Definitely agree with you there.

[@Nobbi_Habogs]

the dev could just block opposite inputs. this code could write 1 person in 10 minutes and add it to the game.

[@ant_989]

You don't understand anything from this video... "At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller" - dude no. You can be "the better player" but if your opponent is playing on controler which literally can do things which others can't - you will lose. That's the argument. It's impossible to win despite having better execution or legacy skill. It's physically impossible to win. The only way to gauge which player is better is to use same controllers.

[@chebil_y4967]

@@Nobbi_Habogs The devs can't do that since like Aris said the Hitbox will do it's cleaning itself so what that means if you are holding back and then press forward without letting go of back the Hitbox will therefore immediately send only the forward input, so this hole problem with hitboxes can't be solved by the devs this way. It's not a problem on the software level but on the hardware level since in a Hitbox you are free to tweak your SOCD cleaner to last input win or first input when you press two buttons at the same time.

[@rovidelarosa]

Aris don't know what he's talking about. There is an SOCD cleaner in Hitbox and Mixbox. DIY leverless controllers using Brook boards also has multiple types of SOCD cleaners. You can't input opposite directions at the same time. Default on hitbox and mixbox is "back+forward=neutral, up+down=up".

[@SalvadorSTMZ]

He's old and doesn't play anymore lol.

[@TheCvl25]

To be fair though, i think there could be a valid argument for up down being neutral instead of up

[@Lemon_Force]

This is wrong. There are certain ones you can buy that have switches for toggling between the 2 different socd "modes", mpress for example. You can also build your own to work that way as well. It's very much possible.

[@rovidelarosa]

@@Lemon_Force Still has SOCD cleaner. You still can't input opposite directions at once. It just handle it differently. These are the 3 types of SOCD cleaners: "last input priority, up+down=up, up+down = neutral".

[@marcossantos1998]

People will say shot without even understading this basic thing

[@epicpumpkin8876]

any mixbox or hitbox stick with a SOCD cleaner, is perfectly fine, if you hold forward and backward at the same time it is nuetral so you get nothing, same with down and up your chr will jump

[@Dryztan]

I played with both ps4 controllers and keyboards. When I tried playing with an arcade stick its really difficult because I never tried it in my life. In regards to mixbox, I want to try playing it since its closer to a keyboard which is what I'm used to playing my whole life. I couldn't afford a console with controllers so I just use a cheap office keyboard and its really good.

[@matthewmorrison3745]

Consistency is literally one of the pillars of competitive and hitbox changes the games we've been playing for years.

[@ryanbob]

People who have been playing on keyboard for 20 years would disagree lol

[@JonathonTheAsshole]

7:30 Picked up Tekken 7 as my first Tekken game in over 20 years and was doing perfect electrics on Kazuya reliably in less than half an hour fooling around on my keyboard. It's extremely snappy. On pad doing electrics feels like a coin flip and KBD's and character control feels like you're waist deep in sludge. Pad also feels like you're going to break the thing and be out of $75 in a couple months from the wear and tear just moving around in Tekken requires.

[@karlobicierro7081]

100% agree and when you do learn kbd you thumb becomes sore as hell after some time.

[@faizanahmad7730]

Yes, and those things are quite a bit easier on a stick than on a pad as well, so we should ban sticks too then right?

[@meer2586]

really? I've been using the same PS4 pad for over one year and it's still not broken, and I main kazuya too

[@chrisnewman6182]

Pad is fine if you have always played on it

[@grinsekatzedecheshire7754]

It's totally opposite for me lol I couldn't do electrics consistently with keyboard but as soon as I switched to DS4 analog stick it became a lot easier. Nina's iWS1 too btw lol

[@blimb1720]

I love the aris and TheMainManSWE together such a good combination ❤

[@tyranmcgrath6871]

Analogue and arcade stick is, in my opinion, much easier to use for qcf intensive characters such as Paul.

[@abirneji]

is the thing about mixbox being able to step into the foreground while crouching even true? I'm pretty sure that's a game limitation not a controller one

[@Marleigh_san]

I played an psp emulator of tekken 6 before (i know it somewhat feels different but hear me out) and this somewhat exist. By pressing down which leads you into sidestep or sidestepping into the (depends on the input). Just by holding along the back button, you access your crouch immediately after which i always do in tekken 6. Background can do it also but not as fast as into foreground. I don't know about fightstick but i guess what they said is true. Dpad controller can do it i think. Does fight stick can't access other direction immediately after a directional input and always have to enter neutral first? Then that's quite a disadvantage.

[@drftr6073]

any game breaking aspects of all button controllers should be patched out by devs in the first place. the fact that all button controllers provide an "unfair advantage" is already because devs don't program their game accordingly. even the nintendo joycons have directional buttons, and many consoles in the past had them as well. there is also the argument that any input should be or is already mappable to any other button on a controller. The directions on a stick are digital on off switches just like a hitbox controller is, so from a hardware level it is already possible to do these things on stick if you were to dismantle it without touching the electronics. input convenience is not and shouldn't be tournament illegal.

[@davidburke4101]

@@drftr6073 Problem is that even with SOCD cleaning, hitbox has scientific advantages. Thumbs and sticks have travel time that is completely eliminated by buttons. This travel time allows inputs by a hitbox player to be impossibly fast vs pad or arcade stick. On hitbox, making a mistake such as "moving your thumb/stick too far" is impossible. On top of that, you cannot software fix the fact that even with SOCD cleaning a hitbox is impossibly faster than a DPAD or Arcade stick. A ps4 controller has an easy in-game fix to only allow directional input from dpad. Hitbox cannot be policed in the same way, and even if it could the speed of a hitbox is impossible to replicate on a controller or arcade stick.

[@drftr6073]

@@davidburke4101 the physical convenience of button inputs is just optimization. you can't just waggle a 5 inch metal rod that you got for 200$ and call it cheating when people play on anything more comfortable or cheaper. it's obviously faster to have a finger on every input rather than pressing every button with your thumb and index finger.

[@DreamsOfGaruda]

Devilster is a KBD player, his movement is on another level even compared to Pro Jin players

[@MrGman166]

Yes but he also plays with mixbox as well. There is a video of him vs Arslan Ash where he uses mixbox and not controller. He is skilled at all the controllers just so that he can participate at tournaments incase keyboard isn't allowed.

[@pyscho86]

How can i do 2 inputs at the same time on a Hitbox? I do not understand that, if i press forward and back at the same time my inputs are deleted i actually get nothing for doing that.

[@sonofaballer96]

you can also customize pad controls for ease of execution

[@EvlRemmy]

“When you show up to a bodybuilding competition and everyone is natty…and then you show up with your hitbox…” I died

[@shortax6147]

Okay I agree to most things, but I am geniuinly curious on what the opinion is on the argument, on how advancements on certain things should possibly even be the norm. Since arcade sticks were a default, you have travel time and a much more difficult situation than a gamepad. The game pad has way way less travel time and the general execution is faster. Its still fine to use nonetheless. Then the hitbox came out and is not a step above a gamepad but now the limit is overdone? Why is it wrong to make things easier or more exciting by making them faster. When horses raced and the transition to cars happened, people were saying its unfair how much faster it is. of course it is but that is just the way advancements work. We always strive to make things as optimized as possible. Maybe a bad comparison but I hope you get what I mean. I would like to see this argument to be deducted.

[@DMatt343]

Cars didn't enter horse racing tournaments when cars became the norm.

[@G-R-IE-IE-D]

@@DMatt343 Maybe where you’re from. Just last night my horse raced a Camry and won. (I’m just kidding)

[@christheophilus7154]

a big staple in fighting games is execution. that's been getting forgotten about more and more as the years go on, games become more lenient, and certain techniques are removed. but execution was a big thing that separated players from each other. the ability to perform at a high level under a lot of stress and still be able to perform very difficult techniques was a big reason why fighting games had a lot of appeal. making execution easier so that everyone can have good execution dilutes that aspect of the game and a lot of players don't enjoy having the skills they worked hard to obtain get undermined because the new players don't feel like grinding that aspect of the game. also making execution easier removes the excitement because it's no longer cool to see someone do a difficult combo if it's bnb levels of easy.

[@MizukiNorito]

Hitboxes are dumbing down the difficulty. They are not advancements at all to the games.

[@winterkill1764]

it explains why people are able to block lows so well.

[@JustChillinOnThe5thFloor]

As soon as I went from my ps4 controller to a keyboard i saw the light. Cant wait to get a hitbox or leverless box.

[@QDogg]

Walking forward and blocking simultaneously is the antithesis of fighting games

[@VRFist]

Which you cannot do on Hit Box. Holding left + right does nothing.

[@RustyRants]

@@VRFist but you can be walking forward and instantly press back to block, with no time from going front to back, which changes a character like guile a lot. or you can block a move and instantly ss without having to move your wrist

[@marcossantos1998]

@@RustyRants cool, which rule did it break again?

[@nayyarrashid4661]

@@RustyRants then on this line of reasoning then organizers should just standardize which particular brand to use. Different brands have totally different feelings to them and that will affect a lot of players.

[@radfield6089]

@@RustyRants one, the transition is not instant and using a more effective tool is not cheating. Its your choice waht you play on and if you decide to not play on hit box when it is simply a more modern and effective controller then thats on you dude. Nothing it does is cheating.

[@EspadaKing777]

I agree that people on Mixboxes or the similar digital controllers are definitely at an advantage. However, I think we have to bear in mind that developments in competitive environments always happen, and I don't think the right thing to do is to try to insulate the games from these developments. Badminton used to be played with wooden rackets, then steel and now aluminium and carbon fibre. Smashes have gotten faster and the entire meta around how to serve has changed as power is more readily available to the best players without it being as tiring or difficult. At no point should Badminton have 'banned' these 'obviously superior' rackets. People who want to remain competitive just got new rackets, got used to playing with them and began enjoying the advantages. The people who refused to could still compete, but they had to understand that they needed to be better by a larger margin to win. I learnt to serve underhand; and if I wanted to return to playing competitively I'd have to master the backhand serve. That's just the case now. I think the only issues are 1) the above example took place over some 40 years and the development and implementation of Mixboxes has been nigh instantaneous by comparison, and 2) the manufacturing of the equipment is monopolized by relatively few producers and that means people might be priced out of getting a Mixbox or equivalent. EDIT: An interesting parallel I thought of afterwards is that the Classic Tetris Competitive scene still requires the use of the original SNES controller and CRT monitors, so you can get competitive environments that prohibit technological progress. At the end of the day, it is down to the individual tournament/league organizers what they will or will not permit.

[@NrettG]

Plus the biggest improvement that happened in the fgc with SFIV was when usb arcade sticks were being made and there was a competition between a 8 way stick and a square 4 way stick. 4 way was absolutely better because of that square design that it's now standard if your going to own a stick.

[@emersonundead2]

"Look at the size of this clown device" I laugh hard and instant look at mine🤡

[@slavomirsiekel5572]

Aris: Let me recommend to you, TheMainMan.

[@jakec9869]

On playstation you can "swap the sticks", that way you can use the d pad and the right stick for movement very easily

[@GThunder_Gaming]

but with that you cant press attack buttons precisely but with mixbox and keyboard you still can

[@user-vh4nk5yy6s]

no you cannot forward dash while charging lol this is something that was possible in some older games with keyboard, pad (using analog+dpad), or very early batches of hitboxes that didn't have SOCD cleaners, which effectively cancel forward+back into a neutral input at a hardware level hitbox can be cheap and crossup can be even cheaper but i wish we could stick to like, actual realistic criticisms about the device instead of shit like thinking you can forward dash while charging or people losing their shit over some guy wavedashing with two hands or something

[@SlaineReigns]

+1 100% agree.

[@AIRFGC]

charge partitioning? kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHzHZ4irg8SggNU

[@SebuKaz]

Oh don’t worry, there were a lot of actual criticisms in Aris’ video that isn’t forward dash charging.

[@jimdino77]

That’s a minor counter point lol

[@HashimotoDatsu]

Except you could? It got patched out, which is something developers should be coding into their engines, but I think that take is disingenuous. As it stands, it is literally a corcked bat in a lot of fighting games still. It's fine for non-competitive players to make things as easy as they want, but they need to actually do a better job screening these peripherals for games like Tekken until the code catches up. Once the engine can clean the inputs itself, then who the hell cares what you play on. But it is rediculous to completely ignore the genuine cheating you can still do with pretty much every device except sticks. It doesn't matter if it's already "illegal" to use certain functions, no one is checking and they won't take action unless it's in everyone's face. I think it's more like pine tar in baseball than a corked bat. There are legal and illegal sunstances to help pitchers get more spin. Umps only check if they think fans are noticing and it screws over pitchers that worked their ass off doing it the natural way.

[@furuderika8093]

if button checks are normal thing, why not do SOCD check aswell?

[@rhompbus]

I love this crossover

[@misterbadd3661]

Wait can someone explain the sidestep thing after blocking? How are you not able to sidestep one direction with controller or stick but mix box let's you? What's preventing you from doing 5hat on controller or stick?

[@Cujocito]

If you are P1 and are force crouched by blocking P2 Kazuya’s F+4, you cannot sidestep to the right and only can step to the left. This is because you are only able to step towards the background if you are in a crouched state. Hence giving P1 an advantage over P2 if they are playing a Kazuya mirror because P1 can step to the left after being forced crouch and P2 can only step right in a crouched state.

[@misterbadd3661]

@@Cujocito wait how does the game force you to go just one direction? Is it a bug?

[@Cujocito]

@@misterbadd3661 no it just doesn’t work

[@can1as]

I mean… sticks are just outdated lmao

[@chwelveocean]

There are mixbox-type arcade sticks like mine that don't have SOCD cleaning. But precision is still there.. it's just hella hard to do wavedashes as fast as devilster..

[@anonymoose2474]

Why can hitbox sidestep both direction when forced crouch when pad/stick can't on 2p? I didn't understand that part

[@Section8dc]

One guy said said it perfectly on Aris' channel, "I wonder if this is what Amish guys in the 1920s felt like when they watched cars go speeding by" lol, this sums up the entire thing so well, the fgc is evolving, there is no cohesive argument to ban hitbox when keyboards have been around since the dawn of time, it could also be argued that pad should be banned at that point, and everyone can play either one, I guess Devilster should have to use stick right lol? Nothing but gate keeping elitism that will hold the community back

[@AIRFGC]

how does gatekeeping hold the community back?

[@Marleigh_san]

In the matter of "having fun", yes can do whatever box you want to play. A fair advantage should be given to each contender in a tournament play. Might as well recommend them HITBOX/MIXBOX as an ideal preferences. Stick been around as an old school feel controller. I haven't tried stick controller so i would want to know how it would felt if i used it. Have Devilster used BOX in any tournaments?

[@Section8dc]

@@AIRFGC because it keeps it from growing, in order for it to continue on it needs to get new members, arcades have been dying for years, the fgc should be welcoming new blood, fgc devs definitely seem to feel the same

[@AIRFGC]

@@Section8dc of course devs want more players, they're selling a product and want more money, but a community is supposed to be about more than money, but to prioritize quality connections between like-minded individuals. How does gatekeeping hold the community back?

[@Section8dc]

@@AIRFGC because the community has been dying for a long time, like I said arcade culture is almost completely gone even in Japan, to continue forward the fgc needs to grow, oviously you don't want all the "normies" to take over, and I am definitely torn on them dumbing down fighting games in recent years, but like it or not in order to proliferate the fgc needs new members and gatekeeping will only destroy the community in an effort to keep it "pure", we are already incredibly niche as it is

[@Saskaruto16]

As a keyboard player who previously used pad and stick: yeah it's busted. I'm perfectly fine with games patching in nerfs to prevent the 2D charge abuse or other tech. 3s Aris was playing doesn't register hitting both at the same time as a neutral in Fightcade and that's great. I will continue using keyboard/mix/hitbox either way for the speed, precision, and significantly less stress on my hands/wrists, and if they ban me from tournaments I just won't attend.

[@epicon6]

An easy solution is to prevent faster inputs that are humanly impossible with a pad/stick to be built into the game. All problems solved.

[@grinsekatzedecheshire7754]

I was a keyboard player and later I switched to DS4 and I use analog stick for movements. The reason why I switched was that one of my finger always managed to press buttons faster than others so doing e.g. EWGF was pain in the ass because it would come out as f n d df df1 or f n d d1 df instead of f n d df1 or doing f fd d db b was horrible when I tried to play as Geese. I don't think keyboard gives some kind of advantage over other types of controllers maybe only if you do direct and fast movements like fff

[@igorz4582]

@@grinsekatzedecheshire7754 it's good that you're sharing your thoughts when you really don't know what you're talking about lol, pewgf is easier on keyboard because the buttons are right next to each other, and you're in a video where one of the top ranking tekken players explains exactly how a hitbox and kb give huge advantages you chimp

[@grinsekatzedecheshire7754]

@@igorz4582 your reply got deleted

[@captaingengar9402]

Good just stop attending now

[@koki84ji7]

Literally old man yelling at clouds 😂😂😂

[@Xzilesenju]

Yeah Aris Introduced me to you tmm, he's a absolute Legend in the FGC👏🏿😂

[@fruktoid6950]

In protection of keybords. There exist core moves fore some characters in some fighting games that require the player to input staff like ← ←+↓ ↓+→ → for example before pressing a button or a combination of buttons. On a joystick those kinds of inputs are waaaaay easier, because you can acompilsh them with a single move of a finger. Some fighting games, that are not tekken also require you to actually push a dedicated buttton for a block, making the ability to hold ← and → at the same time not that useful in comparison, if not useless at all.

[@Marleigh_san]

Im pretty sure tekken has block while moving back but, You first reason is quite true. In other fighting games, you have to insert that amount of input to just use the a move, especially special. In this case, a Joystick would be a useful control item as i have managed to pull of a move with the same amount of inputs in quick succession with a very high possibility to pull it off. I remember playing a Saint Seiya game with a character special of this input and managed to pull it off after knowing joystick is a movement input as well.

[@26thTori]

But wasn't the argument not about easier and harder? Because if you're a world class player it wouldn't matter because they would learn how to get over that? Thats what Aris basically said. Its a weak argument. I get that its hard for some players but they're talking about tournaments where people actually don't give a care about what's easier and whats harder in terms of input because the mix,hit,keyboard etc gives an advantage beyond just doing things easier, its an advantage that you physically cannot replicate if you do not have the same tool. Unless I read your comment wrong and you can just ignore this.

[@Marleigh_san]

@@26thTori then, wouldn't they rather recommend themselves to play with mixes and boards either? Like TMM said, sticks are just an old school feel, i would love to try them. I can see why people somewhat gets annoyed of player using Box and boards since i just discover myself they have extra directional inputs that lets you access some moves faster. Idk why would it be an advantage against stick? Is it because stick has to return to neutral for it to string another direction input.

[@26thTori]

@@Marleigh_san Well it goes down to tradition for that first part. As mentioned by Lord Aris and TMM we played these games on arcade and by extension stick/pad. They're the tools that were given to play these games and they have limitations such as highlighted, the double input directionals. The games were designed with the idea of using these tools. But now we have tools that can surpass the design of the game. So question it a bit, should we use a tool that overcomes the design for the game in tournaments (Like using a cork bat as Lord Aris mentioned)? Should we use a tool that the game never thought intended to exist? And because of that the design of the game is now flawed. I'm not the one to judge this because I have no authority to so I'll pose that question back to you. Is it fair? Why it would be an advantage, well that can be summed up by taking into account what the double directional inputs means against stick. What a double directional does is that gives a player the ability to do things that is simply impossible for players that aren't using the same tool to do the same. Blocking is much different with double directional because you can move forward and block much faster just because you can use both movement buttons at the same time, ensuring that you can block at an exact frame from when you stop moving forward. In stick/pad you cannot do that simply because you have to reset to neutral. There has to be rules. Personally, you should watch Aris' full video because he makes great points on this and better examples. I basically butchered what they said in this comment.

[@fruktoid6950]

​@@26thTori it's not simply easier/harder - it's also faster/slower, with a vastly different skillfloor level of execution. A joystick player needs to move his finger once, twice at most, that is it. A keybord player needs to input multiple inputs one after another. Unless you are playing some briandead easy to execute characters - one can argue, that using a keyboard will actually either SLOW you down or even straight up restrict your moveset. Keyboard is not simply an upgrade - it's a trade off, that requires you to work for it.

[@tsukiortu]

The fact the hitbox came out around the time I developed carpel tunnel was a godsend. If the hitbox gets banned I literally could not play fighting games anymore due to the pain I get playing on pad and stick that I don't seem to get playing box. Genuinely hope that doesn't happen would suck for people in the same situation as me. I enjoy doing locals sometimes and banning them would actively hurt my enjoyment so that's been my argument on the matter. I'm ok with banning socd cleaning but an all together ban I'm personally against.

[@gabfaj818]

can someone explain on how you can step on the foreground while forced crouch on those controllers?

[@jcbro86]

It would be great to see TMM and Aris commentate some gameplay sometime. It wouldn’t take long tho and Aris would be calling TMM an ESL and calling him amigo sarcastically.

[@Gibbidens]

Brian_f also made a reply to this argument that Aris brought up, disagreeing with a couple of fair counter points about the HitBox and whatnot. Give it a go if you don't know him or if you want even more insight on the subject, it's pretty constructive.

[@Gibbidens]

If you really think that of Brian, it's clear that you don't follow him on KZbin or you're not familiar with him and you're failing to see his point of view. Calling someone a "shill" for criticizing something is like...the opposite of being a "shill", just so you know...because he is openly criticizing the HitBox without any influence but his own experience with it. I won't let you do him like that ma man, uh uh.

[@havyn88]

If people are so salty about different controllers, why don't tournaments just standardize it so that everyone uses gamepad.

[@bchaozgamer4282]

Do you think KB/Hit/mix boxes will be a factor on how fighting game developers make future fighting games?

[@aquilescastro1335]

they already are doing it, guilty gear strive has a dash macro and new games will probably have socd that does not allow shortcuts

[@Potato_4688]

i thought the socd option thats tournament legal was only neutral

[@SShaBazzz]

Well you bring up the Mishima point. I'd easily counter by saying that you shouldn't have an advantage by just having a player 1 or player 2 side so the hit box simply fixes that. So I'd actually say just having player1 side would be cheating because you gwt an inherent advantage from no effort of your own.

[@makeomengreatagain]

Yeah and what happens when you put mishima on his non-dominant side.......

[@SShaBazzz]

@@makeomengreatagain it doesn't matter, that disadvantage comes from the game, not the player skill.

[@ensar4115]

@@SShaBazzz what if the person on p2 can play better mishima? Do you really think movement is all there is to tekken? Why are there then players winning on p2 side with mishimas?

[@SShaBazzz]

@@ensar4115 them having better movement isn't the point. The fact that it's an inherent disadvantage is the main problem. By your logic, hit box isn't really a problem at all because they may have the controller but the person with a Aecade stick has the better fundamentals and movement skill.

[@ensar4115]

@@SShaBazzz I agree it is an inherent disadvantage but my point is, is that tekken isnt all about movement. There are more ways to win in tekken. I think this argument of yours makes no sense because you can't do anything about it. Ofcourse you can bring a hitbox, but for one tiny fault in the matchup you are agreeing to a cheater box who will be used by hundreds of players, and not only for kazuya. The hitbox is not a viable solution at all. This argument of yours sounds like an mma fighter trying to justify his steroid use.

[@AhmedRajput1991]

By your logic currently P2 is at disadvantage when using the stick. Hitbox and keyboards even those odds and make the matchup fair.

[@blasianray]

Had a friend in college who got a hitbox one day and I asked why. He said, “I’m not going to EVO” lmao

[@90tommy]

Trying to play on playstation controller but feel execution is hard. I do inputs that are unintentional. Isn't it easier to get cleaner inputs with an arcade stick?

[@l14m16]

sorry main man but you can input more than one direction on dualsense because of dpad and analog stick

[@l14m16]

I would also like to say that when you mention the fact someone can move faster on keyboard thats a moot point and sure it makes it easier but whats the issue with that? its gonna create newer harder things to do

[@ensar4115]

@@l14m16 it makes people dumber, thats whats it

[@TFunk584]

yes and its easier then hitbox. lol

[@l14m16]

@@TFunk584 just like aris said it doesnt matter if its easierier or harder

[@louisedyhlen3234]

false you can input 2 directions at the same time with regular ps4 pad: using d pad and the stick at the same time, and yes players do that: famously knuckledu

[@MNSH]

As a Trackpad player myself, i completely agree!!

[@MansMan42069]

Can't you use d-pad + left stick on default gamepads? Pads are essentially arcade sticks with 2 movement levers.

[@ericrodriguez138]

It sounds like both TMM and aris don't know about SOCD-cleaning and the fact that daigo had a hitbox that was banned for having multiple buttons for the same direction and not having standard SOCD-cleaning.

[@SlaineReigns]

The whole left and right button presses at the same time is just plain wrong and is not possible with a Hitbox btw. This input gets cleaned by the SOCD cleaner and registers a neutral input. The controller merely follows the coding that is allowed in the game. If we're gonna address this problem, the game developers need to do something about it. People are blaming the wrong thing. It's the programming inside the game should take the blame, not the controllers. Pads can already do this type of things possible with an HB, so ban pad? EDIT: Btw im an Arcade Stick Lever user. I dont even own the hitbox, I just understand how SOCD works. Someone might accuse me of being a HB shill lol. Im not, im a Lever Lover. If you ask me, yes HB's gives you advantage because of faster inputs, but should it be banned? No. The controllers are just simply evolving. Lever controllers are ancient, it was a thing before I was even born (born in 96).

[@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot]

I mean, the controller itself could prevent it without the software, but they don't want that as it would limit their sales, and people would find workarounds anyway or build their own stuff. At this point I don't think devs care enough to make the ethical decision of coding for/against it. Which can only limit player base. But maybe that will change.

[@Ravemaster620]

Pads don't really allow you to do it, at least not in a conventional sense. Sure you could hold left on a DS4 dpad and right on the left stick but it's not physically practical. The dpad itself doesn't even allow both directions to be pushed at the same time. So yeah, we can ban the controller and not have an issue with the way the game is coded. Even if we take lay the blame solely on devs and how they coded the game, should we just let these controllers rock until devs manage to code for every variation that stops these things from happening?

[@SlaineReigns]

@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot Im talking about the official HB's that follow the game's standards btw not custom made ones that bypasses it. Those ones are definitely cheating. The Official hitbox controllers are REQUIRED to follow tournament rules, so the regular Hitboxes just follows whatever capcom tells them. The custom made ones for sure I take issue with. Those ones are a problem.

[@SlaineReigns]

@@Ravemaster620 Practicality doesnt matter, banning something is not based off "Practicality" it's whether you CAN or CAN'T do it. Pads, MB's and, HB's CAN do this, so why pads are not banned then. MenaRD and Nuckeldu (pro pad players) do those tech already. But yes I agree, it's definitely faster than a regular lever controller, that's basically the whole schtick of Hitboxes and Mixboxes.

[@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot]

@@SlaineReigns How would that work with different developers and games? They just stick to what Capcom says and everyone plays along and that's the product they get? Not that that's a bad thing necessarily in this case, I'm just curious.

[@sulfreez]

5:05 Opposite directional inputs were possible on Dual Shock's D-pads and Analog sticks.

[@jesmarkmikesell1957]

My two favorite Tekken figures in the same video. What a blue moon this is!

[@VRFist]

Being able to step inside (SSL on 2P after forced crouch) doesn't break the game, it fixes it. Your advantage doesn't depend on one rock paper scissors before the match. Also you can do two opposite direction on a gamepad, just use both the d-pad and the analog stick. SFV players do it for charge characters for years.