To Catch a Spy - How the Spycatcher Affair Brought MI5 in from the Cold (361)

[@colinstewart1432]

Spycatcher would never have happened if they hadn't tried to do Peter Wright out of his pension.

[@peterlovett5841]

The problem was that MI5 refused to honour Peter Wright's service in naval intelligence through WW2 despite having told him when he was recruited that they would honour that service. There were a variety of reasons for his writing the book, some of which are covered in this podcast but he certainly felt betrayed by Thatcher. He was a very conservative person and the accusations of treachery made against him hurt him deeply. Peter Wright had been heavily involved in the turf war between MI5 and MI6 in Northern Ireland and he maintained that if he ever wrote about that it would bring down Thatcher's government.

[@stuartstein7495]

They did Eddie Chapman AKA Agent Zig-Zag out of a lot of money he had received from the Germans telling him the money was counterfeit and shat on him big time for the services he did for his country.

[@jenniferholden9397]

I bet that the non people that did receive their pensions and more. The longer I live the more it occurs to me that the bods that run all this malarkey are a bunch of self satisfied egotistical bums that were not fit to run a jellied eel stall. He worst of it all is they cost a damn fortune. What are they good for? Absolutely nothing. Antony Blunt, related to the Queen, looked after her paintings (probably gave them a bit of a dust yearly) a hateful piece of work, after all the treacherous acts he performed he wasn’t thrown into a deep dark prison cell which is what he deserved. How many lives were lost because of this old swine? Then people wonder why I have no time for the royal family, any normal person would have been shot. We are being duped left right and centre by these billionaires, but pensioners can’t keep warm in winter, kids are going hungry and the NSA’s is falling to bits ( not before those who sit in the House of Lords and Commons with a few exceptions make a killing out of a world wide disaster). The current PM is very cosy th the MI5 and MI6. Unbloodybelievable.

[@FranzBieberkopf]

@@peterlovett5841 "Very conservative". Wright was outrageously antisemitic, something this book ignores.

[@peterlovett5841]

@@FranzBieberkopf He never expressed any such views to me in the time that I knew him.

[@anotherblonde]

I recall returning to the UK at that time after holidaying in America with a copy of Spycatcher in my hand and expecting to have it removed from my person. Some eyebrows did lift, but I made it home safely.

[@bjkemp4295]

I bought a copy in Nottingham whilst it was still banned!! A mate saw it and shot straight round to the book shop. The stack (about twenty) were no longer on display!!

[@ccbarker120]

The British Government fell for one of the most popular ploys in the book if you want to make sales get your art banned so in effect Thatcher was Wrights best sales/marketing agent.

[@philipbrooks402]

I enjoyed listening to that. Withe reference to Anthony Blunt, according to the account in Charles Moore's biography of Margaret Thatcher, the first volume of which covers the affair was published over ten years ago so more information may since have come to light, Mrs Thatcher was told that Blunt had been given immunity from prosecution and a court case was unlikely to succeed. She followed that advice but argued that immunity from prosecution did not extend to a grant of anonymity. Contrast that episode, where she followed the advice, with the farce of Spycatcher itself. Apart from being advised not to pursue this in court, being a barrister herself she must have known that the suit was unlikely to succeed and all the subsequent ridicule especially after the book's publication in the USA and copies flowing into Britain. One possible reason not pursued in the podcast was possibly, just possibly, a fear that it may have compromised MI5 counter-terrorist operations against the IRA, which was bombing its way across the UK at the time. Just a thought but as I said I enjoyed it.

[@paulperry7091]

As a boffin myself (though not in intelligence) I had hoped that Spycatcher would reveal some interesting spycraft techniques - but Wright managed to obscufate everything nicely, even Operation Rafter. As they say, truth is stranger than fiction - but like most espionage memoirs Spycatcher is stranger than either.

[@NEWAUSTRALIANFLAG]

He was french.. we right is a huguenot name

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

Brilliant interview.

[@dominicseanmccann6300]

Remember a bloke selling them for £50 a throw at Hanger Lane gyratory system. Up & down tailback. Made a few bob. A bit like the lawyers.....remember the nightly farce well, on the news. Interesting times.

[@kaneclements7761]

I remember Spy Catcher quite well. It was an absolute mess for the government and down in rural Devon I somehow managed to get hold of two copies. And at the time I was a police officer. Sometimes just fessing up is the best way and as with Watergate it is the lie or lies that cause the problem.

[@edhodapp6465]

Yes. I think all of this inordinate emphasis on secrecy and lawlessness that took root after WWII has given rise to this culture of conspiracy theories that are so destructive.

[@NEWAUSTRALIANFLAG]

Could be called the huguenot afffair

[@DominicSeanMcCann]

That technique work as a police officer? ' fess up, it's the lie that dooms you; sign here, it's good for the soul...' if only life was that 'simple', however true.

[@jcreajr]

Fantastic interview !Great show!

[@ColdWarConversations]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@trumpeterjones6638]

Great podcast, i will look forward to getting the book once in paperback, hopefully through your bookshop.

[@hazchemel]

KGB penetration of the British system was thorough enough. The consequences of the British fifth column on scientific, academic, military and commercial fields of the wider society balloon over time, and not in a good way. Today's system is essentially and systematically dismantling our country, 9 to 5, year by year. But back then, the traitors were the outliers and not representing any quorum of mass or institutional support. Those serious consequences of their treachery and sabotage give birth to ever worse effects, which in turn gain existence flourish and give birth to yet worse and numerous baby monsters, and onwards .... it approaches a task of epic mastery and heroism to destroy

[@nickjung7394]

I completely agree.

[@no.7593]

Brilliantly stated!

[@DominicSeanMcCann]

Couldn't agree more.

[@peterreston6478]

Excellent interview. The janitor at the KGB Museum at the Lubyanka maintains that it was the Cambridge 20 rather than the Cambridge Five. I agree. British intelligence was throughly penetrated by the Soviets but we must remember that Russia was an ally. This is a fact that is constantly overlooked as it was during this presentation. What is also overlooked is that Russia bore the brunt of Hitler's war for almost its entirety. This is a fact that motivated Russia's British spies from the beginning.

[@MichaelK.-xl2qk]

I don't find the argument persuasive, that the Soviet Union equitably deserved sympathy for bearing the brunt of the German war effort. Because it is common knowledge that the first move by the Communists after seizing the government of Russia, was to conclude a peace treaty with the Germans, effectively allowing them to consolidate all of their forces for the war on the Westen Front, a move which betrayed Russia's allies, and cost the British untold loss of life and treasure. And by then, it would have been known that Lenin had received 5 million Marks from German intelligence, as well as transportation for the core cadre of Communists to enter Russia from the West. And to add to that, that Stalin had also treatied with Hitler to invade and divide up Poland. At the end of the day, the Soviets deserved all they got from Hitler, and it should have been plain as day that there was no substance to their claims of moral high ground. More likely, these traitors were just plainly evil or vastly self-deceived. But in no wise were they morally justified nor should their consciences have compelled them to commit treason.

[@DominicSeanMcCann]

​@@MichaelK.-xl2qkAnyway, hardly excuses 'treachery'. Problem with these sort of people is, to paraphrase Wright; 'They wanted to hunt with the capitalist hounds & run with the communist hares'. Nearly always these 'Establishment' types who sell the country out.

[@DominicSeanMcCann]

Yes,, I'd be interested in the hundreds who weren't from Cambridge. The infiltration of scientific institutions, for instance. Nothing if not thorough, these 'bolsheviks'.

[@lordleonusa]

When Spycatcher came out in 1987, I was a civil servant, working under the awful Margaret Thatcher, who most of us despised. She banned sale of the book, and I recall bookshops selling a paperclip for 29.95 GBP, with a free copy of spycatcher attached. At that time I would have liked a copy, but my money was being spent elsewhere. I quite forgot about the book until a couple of weeks ago, when I finally got a secondhand copy on amazon. It's quite fascinating.

[@ColdWarConversations]

Great story. Thanks for sharing.

[@pvorster8042]

Poor thing, I hope you feel better soon.

[@pvorster8042]

What exactly made Margaret Thatcher so 'awful'?

[@PercyPruneMHDOIFandBars]

@pvorster8042: Want to ask a miner? Just don't mention the name in Yorkshire. The devastation to entire villages was extraordinary!

[@lakedistrict9450]

I remember all that. I enjoyed Mrs T’s frustration.

[@lew6598]

As we all saw at the end, Thatcher was barking *and* evil. She protected paedophiles in cabinet and other like Savile who dined with her every christmas. It is thought that Denis was a paedophile and that she was protecting him too. The 'royal 'we'' was just one sign. I would have loved to make a documentary of the monster drooling into the hundreds of cans of beans she hoarded.

[@BobSpector-up7lw]

Thanks!

[@ColdWarConversations]

Many thanks Bob! I’m delighted you enjoyed the episode.

[@nickjung7394]

Chapman Pinchers books on the subject are well worth a read!

[@David-if9vi]

I will look out for this book as well. I have read Spy Catcher. As a Veteran of the Cold War, the Soviets were the main opposition, but we were dealing with their appendages. So I am still very interested in the background to our stuff. If I remember correctly from Wright's book, one of the reason's he took the course was that the bean counters had not honoured their word on upgrading his pension. He was a late entrant so this did affect his retirement. The British Government, and the civil servant's who run the system. Have a lot of built in pettiness'. And over the years this has come back to haunt them. I think it is a bit naïve to think that we have to follow "The Rule Of Law" when the people you are up against do not have such constraints. It boils down to a hefty dose of "Moscow Rules" here. Also if you blow all the operations that the opposition are conducting against you. Then it will not take them long to work out why this is happening. America, was well aware from their own sources the state of Britain's' Services. And they were very upset about it. Many thanks for sharing this with us.

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

The second you leave the rule of law, everything and anything is allowed. Whatever path is chosen becomes a matter of opinion, and whoever is in power makes the rules. That's not a rules-based democracy, that's a dictatorship. That's why we have laws. Those treasonous fellows agreed with you, but people have been reflecting on this issue for millenia--even the Bible mentions the pitfalls of the temptations of going outside the law and the importance that even a king mantains it (Deuteronomy). What's naive is to assume we can solve this issue by reacting emotionally to specific cases instead of engaging in intellecutally rigorous philosophical debate, and to assume that taking the law into your hands won't have much, much worse consequences down the line when everyone decides that if one side does not respect the sanctity of the law, then neither should everyone else.

[@DanaGrant-lw3nz]

A hell of a lot of fun. Thanks.

[@ColdWarConversations]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@edhodapp6465]

I bought a copy of Spycatcher here in the US after it came out in the bookstores. A fascinating read. As an engineer who worked on some of the first color doppler ultrasound medical imaging machines, I enjoyed Wright’s description of tracking U-Boat periscopes with radar. He was an interesting and complex man, but must have greatly valued honesty to write such an unsparing account of himself. That interesting and complex nature was fully exposed.

[@misdangered4326]

1:00:30 “A meal..? A succulent Italian meal…?? Democracy manifest!!”

[@familyplans3788]

Man this brings back memories , i had a copy of Spycatcher when it was illegal in the U.K. Personally i thought it was a very boring and tepid book and it was way cooler because it was illegal to have at the time

[@markhughes7927]

1:04:15 Didn’t Hollis release information about an upcoming offensive in the Korean War which lead to vast fatalities among the western forces? (And saved many eastern lives)

[@vlera8447]

Riveting! Thank you!😊

[@ColdWarConversations]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@TwentyTwenty90]

Bought the book as soon as I saw this pop up.

[@lordleonusa]

Spycatcher is an excellent book. To be fair, M15 and MI6 absolutely needed carte blanche to be effective.

[@DominicSeanMcCann]

Yeah, just as well they didn't have the Diane Abbot 'intelligence' select committee, or similar back in 50s. We'd have been 'buggered' ( so to speak), way before now......

[@nickjung7394]

Katherine Gunn's story is well worth a read!

[@hughtierney9109]

someone who later came to public attention suspected Philby years before the Burgess and Maclaine defection. Richard Helmes was it? David Atlee Phillips?

[@stuartstein7495]

I read Spycatcher and a lot of other books on the Intelligence Services. One referenced a book by Alexander Foote, Handbook for Spies so someone got me an old very faded copy. Inside the book cover was from 3 letters to 3 letters, so obviously somebody from the intelligence world gave it to someone else in the intelligence world. As I read through it I noticed a raised full stop and ran my finger over it and it smeared ink down the page from it. I instantly knew it had been a microdot. It could not have been anything else as the book was that old ink would have been dry. I always wonder what information it may have contained and if it could have revealed and whatever happened to one of those initialed persons as it would surely have been destroyed or stored securely away in the Intelligence Services archives.

[@ColdWarConversations]

Great and intriguing story. Thanks very much for sharing.

[@Venmaylove]

So where is it

[@RandallFlaggNY]

The "Streisand Effect" before it was coined.

[@myriaddsystems]

The frequency of adverts in this presentation is REALLY beginning to annoy me🤨

[@ColdWarConversations]

I'm sorry to hear that, but the ads are controlled by KZbin however, if you'd like to listen ad-free you can join our Patreon www.patreon.com/coldwarpod

[@greggregg1969]

@@ColdWarConversations or buy You Tube premium.......

[@DominicSeanMcCann]

Poor old Maggie, only just buried Neave, champagne not even flat after election win,, then this. Tough at the top!

[@humphrey4976]

I wonder what Mr Wright would have thought about the last two Labour leaders, much of their cabinet and a lot of their donors?

[@ophilcurry]

Too many adverts

[@ColdWarConversations]

Sorry about that. KZbin decides the ads and frequency.

[@greggregg1969]

@@ColdWarConversations worth paying for you tube premium....life is too short to listen to adverts

[@Seansaighdeoir]

An interesting if at times difficult listen due at times to the slow laborious responses. Also the guests reluctance to name Victor Rothschild as one of the spies doesn't really hold water especially with what we know about the families history and connections to Russia and the slow stranglehold that communism has had on the west. In fact we see similar links in the modern day with Mandelson, Deripaska and Nathan but these are never discussed in the media I would assume for similar reasons. Still I can understand why someone perhaps in that position of having a successful media career would be reluctant to go down that path but for that reason probably won't be buying the book.

[@douglasmiller4351]

Fascinating but spoiled by slow ponderous commentary.

[@barrybarnes96]

advertisement every 4 minutes

[@indigohammer5732]

Can................the......................interviewee.............................................talk.........................any..............................slow..............................er.....................................................?

[@ColdWarConversations]

Listen to it in one of recommended podcast apps and you can speed up the audio. Check it out on the link below. coldwarconversations.com/

[@jeromehealy5251]

😊"p

[@IanDocherty335]

Never was there a more bitter, vindictive, self centred individual than Peter Wright.

[@sueanngrant]

More than one 😂

[@Venmaylove]

He was a total traitor. They should have disposed of him as soon as any hint of his intentions to write came about. Edit: I didn't agree with Blunt being publicly outed prior to his death. Traitor, yes, but he did a lot for the Royals and was a friend of the late Queen. He was humilitiated enough and lost his social circle to those in the know; and others were instructed with a wink that he was no longer to be invited about. He was a broken man already, without being crushed in the press. Wilson was a traitor, btw. As for Hollis, the less said the better.

[@bombatta1544]

You both seem like you are nice people. I am interested in what the interviewee has to say. It is a fascinating and complicated story. You are all over the place sir. This happens. However, it is 100% director and the interviewers' responsibility. Stream of consciousness is important but the conductor is in charge. He just lets you go too many times. Please explain the backstories. ☮🏩

[@johnoliver5284]

The KGB Registrar V. Mitrochen (spelling) gave Hollis a clean bill of health! so there !..........John Oliver

[@carolsimon9203]

​@@johnoliver5284Mitrovkin