Couple's 'Hooked on Phonics' House of Horror Hoarding Nightmare | Katie Koch/Joel Manke Analysis

[@vkpskulls]

A very similar situation happened a few blocks from my house. My wife and I took daily walks and started to see some concerning evidence of some abuse at this one house. My wife worked for the school system and found out there were 4 kids from a new born to a 8 year old the older 2 being “homeschooled”. The children were never seen outside. We decided to bring the family a pizza one evening hoping to see the children. The mother accepted the pizza, but we saw no kids. Said they were sleeping. Surprisingly they let us in, the house was filthy. Dogs everywhere. After that we called local PD to do a welfare check. The state quickly got involved, the children were taken into foster care. The house had no running water. The upstairs bathroom, where the children stayed, the tube was full of poop. Dog crap covered the floors. Turns out the woman had already lost custody of 3 children! Her ex had been abusing and making abuse content. How she was not on someone’s radar is frightening. This is probably happening all over the place. Very sad.

[@itchysheets1222]

That was very kind of her to try to get to know them and the situation before deciding what to do. I think compassion is key in these situations. It may not seem like it to the perpetrators as well as the children at the time, but someone has to stop it in order for the children to get better in the long run and the “parents” are just unable to. So so sad.

[@mofi2342]

Thank you for not looking away!

[@dicedrice7216]

Very clever recon mission! You and your wife are heroes!!!

[@mimax4498]

The world needs more people to be aware and willing to say something when they see something. Thank you 🎉

[@carolynnilsen9270]

So good to know people like you intervened.

[@samanthaw.861]

“She did not want her sons to lose the stability that they had in her house.” If that’s stability, I’d hate to see what chaos looks like.

[@ErebosGR]

[happy Nurgle noises]

[@ahill4642]

uh huh! 😳 And the stepdad said he had to “pick his battles” with the mom… one wonders wtf ELSE there was that he was picking to battle about. 😬

[@trashteamracing8262]

For people who believe the outside world is evil, stability means walling the outside world out completely. Whatever problems arise within the wall is considered much better than whatever is going on outside of it.

[@do9138]

She "homeschooled" and isolated her kids to hide her neglect and abuse.

[@KingfishStevens-di9ji]

Them two boys were their income, thats what she didn't want to lose.

[@Sara_Raney]

i remember pulling fleas out of my hair and eyebrows as a child living in a similar environment. After 14 years of not speaking to my mother, I tried to reconcile and have a relationship with her as an adult and when I told her about the fleas, she told me...."why didn't you tell me?" She is not a part of my life and won't until she apologizes for a lot but she will never see her actions.. It's always someone else. Thank God those kids are out of there. Things like this make me livid.

[@shirleyac12]

Could your mother have mental health or be autistic at all? Often , people only act when told to. Wouldn’t occur to them . Sorry you had to experience this ❤

[@Sara_Raney]

@@shirleyac12 Prescription pills but yes she hasnt mentally developed since she was a teenager which is my personal belief because of her addiction starting as a teenager. Very smart but loved to play dumb which I cannot grasp. And thank you for your kind words. :)

[@gRinchY-op5vr]

​@shirleyac12 and some people would rather play dumb and pretend they didn't know about something than admit they failed somewhere and apologise for it

[@OSuzieQBabyILuvU]

Thank you for sharing your personal experience and perspective.

[@geraldfriend256]

@@Sara_RaneyGlad you got away. Playing dumb is just another false front for the narcissist. Infuriating, to be sure.

[@lindsayb7811]

Regarding the smell, extreme hoarders seem to lose their sense of smell. My mother couldn’t smell rotten food in her fridge, whereas I was tormented by it and always wound up trying to keep it contained. It took over my life. So I moved several states away to save what’s left of my sanity.

[@anneflynn9614]

They get used to the smell and don't notice it after a while.

[@ErebosGR]

Yeah, the phenomenon is called olfactory fatigue, and it's a normal process that happens to everyone. I'm glad you're safe and at peace.

[@aarondavis8943]

There also seems to be 2 distinct hoarder types: one type _collects_ items which, at the very least, could be viewed as having some value. So although their house is terribly cluttered, the hygiene is manageable to a degree. This type often lives alone and the hoarding behaviour may have been triggered by grief. The other type simply never throws anything out, and leaves rubbish, including rotting food and faeces, lying on the floor. They're more likely to have pets and children.

[@KaroBythell]

Yes , its totally the best plan to move away , a long way awat , to preserve your sanity , good on you for taking steps to hang onto it xx

[@ahill4642]

I hope you do not judge yourself for moving away. And I’m sorry you had to deal with that. So unhealthy.

[@yamnjam]

The mom's hair looks like she never washed or brushed it. I hope wherever the kids are, that they are adjusting well and are getting some kind of love and affection.

[@pipermccool]

_This_ is your takeaway?

[@ashleyklover]

that’s the least of her worries

[@smasome]

Did anyone notice that this couple was attractive several years ago? This is so sad and indicative of our inadequate mental care. 🙏 for this family and others who need help and can't find a system to address their issues.

[@veganandlovingit]

@@smasome I've been working in mental health for quite a few years now and I no longer feel sorry for the perpetrators with mental health when innocent animals, children, or anyone vulnerable really who can't get away from them is suffering. So often, yes they have mental health, yes they may even look like s^*t, but they usually manage to meet their own needs for love, drugs, food, being lazy - whatever it is that makes them feel good or satisfied. But they drop the ball, turn a blind eye, don't give a s^*t for those under their care, often even blaming them. I've just lost patience with their selfishness, and cry over the blankness in children's eyes who aren't being treated with love and care, the frustration of knowing so many of these kids will grow up to be f*^ked units from what they have been through. As well as the suffering I've seen dogs and cats and other animals go through before they die of neglect or cruelty, even when I have offered to step in and help. If you are an adult and have mental health, especially if you are responsible for someone else - GET HELP OR GIVE THOSE UNDER YOUR CARE TO SOMEONE ELSE TO CARE FOR.

[@louisacapell]

​@@smasomeare you kidding me? You think this is because of a lack of mental health care? THATS your take away?!?

[@HomesteadingWays]

I live in the Milwaukee area. Mom plead guilty to 3 felonies yesterday. She will be sentenced next year. Could get max of 20-36 yrs. Boyfriend hasn't gone to court yet.

[@Meela234]

Any information about their biological father? I take it he's not in their lives at all.

[@HomesteadingWays]

@@Meela234 they haven't mentioned him.

[@hothmobile100]

Can't believe the house is listed for 190k.

[@MxPx77]

I cannot even fathom how many children live in these kind of conditions. I hope these boys get the help and love they need.

[@lenkacfk7155]

The US really needs to implement some controls on homeschooling! Homeschooled kids should need to pass regular progress tests and get physicals, just to make sure they're not being neglected and abused. (As a German, I still think homeschooling should be completely forbidden, but I guess that will never happen in the US, just like gun control - the lobby groups are just too strong.)

[@MxPx77]

@@lenkacfk7155 things are really screwed up here in the US. I know some wonderful families that home school simply because of the fact that we have a gun issue in america. They’re too afraid to send their kids to public school everyday and our elected officials refuse to make any real change. But that’s just one side to the story. People that use it as a cloak to harm their kids are not being held accountable in anyway. It’s a free pass to do whatever they want.

[@nanettevantriesteharder2469]

@@MxPx77 I thank you for your support. As a US Army veteran, I was stationed in the Federal Republic of [West] Germany where I got married to another GI on the economy and at Flak Kaserne's chapel. We had our honeymoon in Berchtesgaden. It was beautiful. Our daughter was born 9.5 months later. She had duel citizenship until she chose the United States as her country of single citizenship at age 18 because she was mostly raised in this nation. After our son was born at Fort Ord, California and we were both discharged from military service, my husband and I went to college/university on the GI Bill of Rights. In public school elementary classes, both of our children were nominated for the Nova program for gifted students numerous times. They were eventually placed in a private Christian academy in their junior high school years because of the safety issues I became aware of as an involved parent after viewing my now deceased retired cop brother-in-law's collection of weapons taken off of students in the local school district. This was a couple years before the Frontier Middle School shooting. Because of my level of education and experience as a Front Office Manager of Headquarters and Headquarters Detachment, 1st Maintenance Battalion's Materiel Section and as a Muskegon Community College Veteran's Office College Algebra Tutor, I know how to generate and maintain detailed records for grade specific curricula, examinations, and test scores. So, I home-schooled each of my children for a couple of years under the direct supervision of the Moses Lake, Washington school district. All of this was in total compliance with RCW/WAC laws/regulations. Eventually, each was placed in the Washington Running Start Program in which they attended Big Bend Community College to obtain college credits simultaneously prior to graduation from high school with a Washington State diploma before transferring to the university system. My daughter graduated from Washington State University with a bachelor's degree major in History and a minor in Political Science at 19 years old. Since we raised our kids to be familiar with computers, she now has a career as a IT Project Manager at Brown University, an Ivy League School, in its biotech facility. My son went into the US Army in Satellite Communications and traveled the world before graduating from the University of Maryland with a bachelor's degree in Mathematics and then earning a master's degree in Computer Science. He works for a subcontractor affiliated with the National Security Agency. People who are manipulative, whether they have mental health issues or not, can use anything as an excuse for their bad, bizarre, and sometimes criminal behavior. Therefore, there is no excuse for child abuse and neglect either through being far too lenient or far too rigid.

[@nanettevantriesteharder2469]

@@lenkacfk7155 With all due respect to you as a person, everyone has the right to his/her own opinions, even if those opinions are based on ignorance, emotionalism, and/or worst case scenarios, like this one. In Washington State, as in many others, if not most, or all states, home-school parents and their children already meet these academic and athletic requirements (e.g., needs assessments, quizzes and examinations, physical and mental health evaluations) to totally or partially participate in classroom courses, athletic sports, and other extracurricular events on-campus at public and/or private schools, in addition to doing homework that is prepared and administered at-home under parental supervision. Local school district follow-up supervision should be at regular quarterly and annual intervals to prevent students from falling behind on any key points in their coursework and grade levels. When accountability and transparency do not happen in the chain of command, control, and custody at any and all levels, the system of infrastructure can and will be abused.

[@kina18]

​@@lenkacfk7155 The parents are often uneducated. It should be law for homeschooling parents to have at least a highschool diploma and to take some courses on teaching. Many of the homeschooling families in the states are religious fanatics who will not teach their kids science and will base everything on religious doctrines.

[@joedirt1965]

Someone commented on a video about a homeless encampment being covered with liter, "just because they do not have jobs that's no excuse for them to keep the place so dirty". I think keeping a disordered environment can come from a disorder in the mind. I think laziness would not explain a mountain of garbage on the floor. It's too extreme.

[@AB-un4io]

This type of hoarding behavior is often precipitated by some type of trauma…either sudden-as in a person being “mugged” or prolonged-as in a narcissistic abuse situation. Of course, it’s not as simple as that…and there are many different types of trauma and how each individual copes with any trauma is, of course, individual-but it’s a rather safe bet to believe that there’s been an “event” for lack of a better word.

[@janetpattison8474]

The lack of affordable housing, and the need for ppl to live in cars, tents, homeless shelters, or on the streets, has zero to do with laziness 95% of the time. My city does NOT have affordable housing. A small, one room studio is at least $700 / month, if available, which it’s not. Norway has a program called “Housing First”. How do u get a job, if u have no place to shower? No place to sleep? No nice clothes to wear? And no wheels? Housing first knows ppl. Cannot take care of the job issue,unless they have a reliable roof over their heads - at the very least. We do NOT have this in most areas of the US. For the most part U cannot get a job & have nothing, no clean clothes, no phone, no money , crap food, and no help.

[@defundhollywood3259]

Hoarding is definitely not just laziness. A lot of the time there's a trauma background, and there's generally some problems processing information - like not really seeing the mess, not being able to categorize things, not being able to plan appropriately. Not to mention personality factors. 😬😬😬

[@Hatbox948]

I think the FBI has data that supports that theory.

[@lisamoag6548]

yes. The inner is reflected outside. disordered dirty indecent or clean decent and in order and that which is inbetween sad for the little ones chaos not good for anyone

[@DominickDeGennaro]

The way Dr. Grande so calmly recounts horrors is surprisingly soothing. ASMR nightmares.

[@DouglasJenkins]

and Grande deadpanned "...subjected to Hooked on Phonics..."

[@honeybunch5765]

I love his sense of humour, so dry and very sharp. 😂

[@beatpirate8]

not everyone should be a parent. poor children. to be illiterate. neglected and covered in feces and blood is awful. you dont deserve that life. im so sorry.

[@albertafarmer8638]

Why didn't the neighbors call social services?

[@ahill4642]

Here’s hoping the foster care system doesn’t destroy what’s left of their childhood. 🙄🙏 Hopefully they have extended family but with a mother like this who knows what they’re gonna get. It is heartbreaking that any loser can have kids.

[@ahill4642]

@@albertafarmer8638We don’t know, it wasn’t in the video.

[@zyplocs]

@@albertafarmer8638 Quite the moot point.

[@agostinodublino1387]

in Germany if you don't let your children regularly checked by the doctors (for mental health too), they come to your house to check what is happening, to see the living conditions and so on. I wonder how many feral children are living caged and tortured in USA right now

[@brittanywilcox7377]

I hope you give us updates on this case. Nothing triggers my outrage to the surface more than child abuse cases.

[@pipermccool]

?? He isn’t a reporter. You can Google.

[@brittanywilcox7377]

@@pipermccool what a stupid comment🤣

[@defundhollywood3259]

Are you subbed to The Misery Machine? My daily reminder of how horrible human beings can really be.

[@brittanywilcox7377]

@@defundhollywood3259 no!!! What kind of KZbin channel is it?

[@ErebosGR]

I hope you can find peace and stop seeking out content to fuel your rage.

[@loiskondo8349]

Those poor boys, I hope they can recover! Some people should never have children. Thank you Dr. Grande for looking into this.

[@Boi33-mc4hs]

Outlawing abortion is certainly going to help 🙄

[@Michadoo]

They will never recover. This will be a lifetime of suffering.

[@louisacapell]

​@@Boi33-mc4hsyou are absolutely sick. You're literally wanting people to kill children so they don't get hurt? Really think about that.

[@clqudy4750]

Most people shouldn't breed. But apparently it's heinous and wrong to tell ppl that, yet OK to let garbage ppl have kids.

[@louisacapell]

@@clqudy4750 most people? Yeah dude, that's actually really nasty and untrue.

[@rheverend]

Heartbreaking to think of those poor babies pressing their faces against the window to see outside. Their road to a normal life is going to be difficult since they are probably very delayed mentally. Just to breathe fresh air was probably amazing for them. I pray that they get the help and, most importantly, the love they need

[@PatsSpaghetti]

"Allegedly, Katie and Joel perpetrated revolting offences like keeping Katie's sons locked in a bedrooom, boarding up a window, and exposing them to hooked on phonics." @9:45 Well-executed, Dr. Grande.

[@craigherriot4026]

Yep, hilarious.

[@kenwillis8487]

Hooked one fonics werked fur my!!

[@kimberlybaldridge5767]

Hooked on phonics worked for me!

[@PeggyMonroe-md6fm]

Hey, don’t dis HOP!

[@ceilconstante640]

If I lived in a neighborhood where children were though to live but we're never seen and bad smells were coming out of the house and other weird behavior observed by the owner, I'd call the police and explain my suspicion.

[@bthomson]

We all hope we would act but how often we just mind our own business because we don't want to get involved. See something say something is a very good life hack!

[@kenwillis8487]

It’s sad that no family was involved in there lives like a bio dad or grandma / grandpa or aunt / uncle. Someone could have called and asked for a well check or contacted child services!

[@kenwillis8487]

As a licensed foster parent who is currently taking a break to focus on our bio children after the last case it breaks my heart! Those boys are going to require years of counseling and additional services like medical and school as well as social interaction counseling! And despite all of that being provided ( if it is and properly) they may never be able to live a normal life! Our brains develop the most by 3 years old, like 90% developed by 3. There is so much that you would never think matters but does , vocal cues, dealing with defeat, learning to sooth oneself and so much more! I was blown away by those facts. I’m not saying those boys can’t lead a productive life cause they can though it will take more work and effort than most kids ever have to give!

[@ceilconstante640]

@@kenwillis8487 it bothers me greatly that most people don't want to get involved. I used to go to a park with my dog and made friends with a little girl around 8 yrs with an alcoholic father living with "an uncle" that wasn't a real uncle. They were bombed out drunk at a picnic table while she was just wandering around alone. I called the police who came and chatted with me and the girl. Dad and his buddy got arrested for public intoxication. The little girl went in a different car with a woman officer. I got a call a few weeks later from a very appreciative divorced Mom who informed me he had weekend visitation based on being sober and supposedly living with his mother.

[@ceilconstante640]

@@bthomson I'm not a prying or nosey person but I do take note if something doesn't seem right regarding children or if I know pets are being abused. The police do accept anonymous calls.

[@bobbellendovich6825]

"Disheveled, anxious, agitated and flustered" is my new dating profile, and expectations.😍

[@benny_lemon5123]

Well hello there, 😉 saaaame

[@Neilsowards]

Good luck

[@exceptionaltalentspc4954]

I once worked for a non-profit making home visits to new parents. Lots of babies living in horrible conditions and all that agency did was paperwork and talking non-sense to parents without addressing critical issues.

[@ENFPerspectives]

The world lacks love anymore

[@weirdarto]

If it weren't mandatory, I'm surprised the parents even let them in. I understand CPS as they've identified a child at risk and they have authority. But, a non-profit making home visits sounds weird.

[@paytonjewel6106]

This is interesting. I've just had a baby a few months back, and never received any such visit. Is this mandatory in some states? I feel like this should be a necessary practice everywhere.

[@bookofthewarsofthelord9273]

​@@paytonjewel6106you want some bureaucrat visiting and spying on you? The so called non profits work for the government depending on the reason for the visit.

[@bookofthewarsofthelord9273]

Home visits to new parents? Where does this happen and why? I assume its for benefits...

[@brassteeth3355]

I often get my paint, chocolate, and clay mixed together. I just keep it right there on the wall.

[@tommccormick9290]

Couple times in my life I had to enter foul-smelling apartments and thought if I was stuck in them ,I'd either die or be driven insane within a couple days.

[@erinthesystem9608]

I'm consistently baffled by those people who bring children and animals into extreme hoarding conditions. (The Turpins continued to have children, over and over- bringing them into a situation which was already miserable.) I say all of this as a low-level hoarder myself, something which has been with me since childhood (which I've made good- but gradual- progress in changing). I would never invite or expect another person to live with me, and it seems unfair to impose this- a cluttered or messy home- on innocent beings who have no choice in the matter. When people and pets depend on you, you owe it to them to provide some decent quality of life. And NOBODY with a 💩-encrusted home can possibly provide that.

[@HayleysComet3]

I call myself a hoarder and come from a family of them. But low level also. I keep my house clean and my one dog and one child clean too. We take pride in our appearance and besides having too much stuff I can’t imagine living in filth. So I imagine there are clean hoarders.

[@ahill4642]

It’s surely a spectrum… which I am on, too. Let’s keep working on our clutter, kindred spirits. ❤️

[@kina18]

​@@HayleysComet3 The couple who own the stables I work from are low level hoarders. Their home is overwhelmingly crammed with stuff. No trash or anything nasty and they hire a lady to clean for them but they're too much into antiques. They have so much furniture cluttered in every room, it is just a path to get around. IDK why they can't see that their home would look much nicer and be more comfortable if they'd sell half of it. For sure, too much of a good thing in their house.

[@HayleysComet3]

@@ahill4642 I just can’t seem to get rid of anything and can’t pass up free stuff that I can repurpose or sell. I’m a crafter too and love craft stuff and “need” every new gadget and pretty paper. And then always want to try new crafts and so buy those items too.

[@HayleysComet3]

@@kina18 Sounds like my house. I recognize it’s becoming a problem. I’m addicted to craft stuff and thrifting.

[@namastenurse]

My husband and I adopted 2 children from a group of 8 removed from a similar case. The difference is the county was involved for over a YEAR before they removed the children and covered up the horror to limit their liability in the severe lack of care they provided to these children. None of them will be able to be fully functional members of society except possibly the one that was delivered and removed immediately during the case. CPS serves parents. It treats children as property and nothing more. It’s disgusting.

[@Ken-fh4jc]

I think it boils down to a lack of resources and a lack of foster homes.

[@bandit_six5418]

I imagine you had to go through CPS to adopt the two children, so, are you an active part of the problem? Or is CPS actually an amazing community service, and you just know of a few failures?

[@Skepticismsaveslives]

This is an outcome of the CPS mission to, " keep families together" instead of putting the child's needs first. There are people who are not fit to raise children.

[@lisabelle7553]

There needs to be a dedicated national federal law enforcement agency wirh the best detectives focused on the actual protection of children. Not a bunch of "social workers" who are inept at best and complicit in the extreme. When are we going to start GAF about the torture of kids??

[@aarondavis8943]

This is a simplistic description of Child Protective Services based on personal experience and your particular worldview. To start with, different CPS operate in different jurisdictions and the quality varies greatly. Often children can't be placed anywhere as the service is underfunded and stretched to breaking point. The job is performed by people who are underpaid, undertrained and receive nothing but contempt from a largely uninformed public. Most of them are doing the best they can in a thankless task. You say CPS serves parents? Then how did you end up with 2 children removed from their parents? Children are being removed all the time and you know it.

[@raizinboyz]

Erika Murray and the Blackstone, Massachusetts 'House of Horrors' case. I live in the next town over. They found 2 or 3 dead babies I think, a hidden toddler living alone in a room. She had two older children and was found out when one left the house looking for help. Her husband lived in the basement and claimed no knowledge of what was going on. So sad, I hope those boys heal and find some love.

[@blazefairchild465]

Black stone Mass. mom was a crazy one you are so right , if my memory serves she had 2 normal kids, 2 hidden kids upstairs, 3 baby corpses unknown if they were born/stillborn. She was found out when she left her son and his friend in the house and the babies started crying. Her family had been told that she sometimes baby sat her friends kids, husband did live in the basement & never knew she had those upstairs kids he swears. Of course she had the coolest Facebook ever with recipes & crafts ect. Major mental issues because hubs didn’t want more kids , but the story didn’t include why he didn’t get a permanent solution to that,rather leaving his choice to his mentally unstable wife.

[@maxshea1829]

Yes. I mentioned that case in my own comments. Murray's case is so horrifying, I don't recommend nervous individuals even look for the story!

[@raizinboyz]

@@blazefairchild465 yes, she had the perfect mommy Facebook posts.

[@charliechurch5004]

WHAT!?!! 😮

[@craigherriot4026]

'A neighbourhood smell program may have had some success'. Pure comedy gold Todd.

[@TheAverageGuy12]

Almost finished preparing my kids for home schooling, a couple more bowel movement and the curriculum will be complete! 🤪

[@0.-._.-._.-.0.-._.-._.-.0]

Cheese

[@OSuzieQBabyILuvU]

As someone who struggles with anxiety, ADHD, and parting with things, I can understand some aspects of this case. I can understand the embarrassment of not wanting people to see and things being too much to manage. But I can't wrap my brain around the mistreatment of children. They ALWAYS come first.

[@gomanda]

I appreciate the insights about hoarding disorder (HD) and am interested to learn more about the connection between HD and child neglect/abuse. I grew up in a hoarder house -- nowhere near as bad as the one in this video -- and it is a rough way to live. I really hope these little boys get tons of good help, support and care.

[@mofi2342]

I had to grow up in a hoarder house too and was neglected. It was terrible.

[@reneegardner2286]

just look up hoarding and narcissism. there's some videos on KZbin about this exact topic. hoarders are really just narcissists

[@blk5124]

I hate when people say they homeschool but aren't actually doing anything.

[@Automedon2]

During covid lockdown, in some districts almost none of the children ever even logged on to the online learning programs. That included wealthy areas of Virginia.

[@l.b.9567]

She said it was paint, chocolate and clay, but it was obvious she was talking sh!t.

[@NotAffiliated]

Dude, that's a pretty crappy joke.

[@l.b.9567]

​@@NotAffiliatedDon't sh!t on my joke

[@sadiestoltzfus9798]

😀

[@terry85mar]

It's shit not sh!t bruhh.

[@kingti85]

She was taking the piss but she left the shit

[@nicolewasilewski4282]

What Brave boys to escape. I hope theyre healing in a safe enviroment.

[@yyyyuuuuu102]

Neighbors knew something wrong, but no one reported to the police...wow

[@shirleyac12]

People can be cowards

[@mrs.reluctant4095]

Excellent description and analysis of an interesting case of mental and behavioral disorders. Fascinating as always, thank you.

[@mshockey73]

I really hope the boys are getting what they need to at least be okay. I don't know how a child could ever recover from something like this. It also makes you wonder about the extended family. Did the biological father or any grandparents, aunts or uncles have any contact with these little boys?? This is so sad:(

[@ahill4642]

I agree, they may not fully recover. Dr. G mentioned the mom said they were autistic, but perhaps they didn’t develop properly due to neglect. It’s horrific is what it is and they truly deserve those 40 years in jail they may get.

[@kimberlynielsen6485]

I live near there, I never heard about this case! As someone who Homeschooled my kids this is horrible! I hope they get adopted and treatment!😢

[@jillruben8924]

Any case involving such horrific vile abuse is horrifying and inexcusable. Hope she goes to jail forever. Praying those kids are together and slowly learning a better life. Thanks Dr Grande❤

[@develyntwocentshenderson5739]

I believe in the almighty gene. they don't get this way in one generation. nor overnight.

[@flingonber]

What purpose does sending mentally ill people to prison accomplish, exactly, though? They certainly aren't going to get any better there, and it's incredibly expensive to keep them there...some people who harm children know exactly what they're doing and just don't care, but this seems more like they were incapable because of their own issues, which is tragic in its own way but not necessarily malicious.

[@anneflynn9614]

​@@develyntwocentshenderson5739Not nature but nurture.

[@anneflynn9614]

​@@flingonberHowever it would probably keep her from having more children.

[@flingonber]

@@anneflynn9614 I mean, if that's the purpose then forced sterilization would make a lot more sense.

[@DottieMinerva]

I feel like the word hoarding doesn’t even fully describe this. I shudder to think of how this could be happening all over the US and no one knows.

[@bnic9471]

Maybe this sort of living should be called Wallowing Disorder.

[@AwakeAtTheWheel]

Hooked on Phonics worked for me! No, seriously. It did. Thanks grandma!❤️❤️

[@rejaneoliveira5019]

What a heartbreaking case, poor children.😢😔 Thank you for the overview on hoarding disorder! Much appreciated, Dr. Grande.❤

[@janetpattison8474]

Many neighbors may be aware that something is off , but not have evidence of what is going on in A home. Protective services, whether for adults or kids are incredibly understaffed & overwhelmed. And the police - they’re not trained in prevention, but only in responding to a crime after it’s done.

[@Automedon2]

Whenever I hear about a story like this I wonder how many cases are out there that aren't and will never be discovered. In my previous line of work I went into some truly disgusting houses. If those people had children I can guarantee they would be cared for like the houses were - not at all.

[@justiceforallnotjustsome]

You have got to be one of the funniest KZbinrs!

[@yummyjackalmeat]

You don't need to be a parent to know how horrible these people are, but being a new father this just hits me a little deeper.

[@ahill4642]

Sweet little babies are so vulnerable, so dependent on us to keep our shit together and take solid care of them, cuddle them, read to them, be patient and loving. Congratulations, new Dad. ☺️

[@estrella9944]

Congrats new dad!

[@elizabethhamm5320]

Those poor boys. I hope that they get the help that they need and are placed with loving caregivers who are up for the challenge of helping them overcome their trauma

[@brianlopez8855]

Dr Grande's sense of humour has just hit new levels of extreme dehydration.

[@thesongbird2383]

Dr. Grande - Also, the actions of the children display our innate desire for freedom, love, socialization, and structure. Their determination to escape is the "good news" in these cases. Great analysis! 👍💜🌵

[@clintondearborn3016]

Love your channel Dr. grande you’re a great example for a lot of young men out there. You make me want to educate myself more about my surroundings. Thanks for the great work. Keep it up man lots of love Clinton from New Hampshire USA.🌎🌎🌎❤️❤️❤️☮️☮️☮️✌️✌️✌️☮️☮️☮️🌲🌲🌲🐐🐐🐐

[@matt.stevick]

Nightmare. I hope the boys can have some sort of future, so sad 😞

[@zenawarrior7442]

How sad for those kids. I agree could have been hoarders. Great points & analysis again. Thanks Dr G😊💟💟

[@spencerwong4464]

Hey Doc, haven't written all year but so glad to seeing you do so well. It's hard to find a niche, but when ever I tell someone about your Channel cause I'm sure they will like it, they'll know about you already,,!!! 😊

[@TheFakeyCakeMaker]

That 3 page apology letter was for the police not the kids, she's hoping for leniency. States need to better monitor homeschools.

[@kimberlynielsen6485]

In Wisconsin you are supposed to register as a homeschooler and send it grades every quarter and have curriculum that is state standard. She just said she Homeschooled to get out of the fact she was doing nothing for these kids!

[@nanettevantriesteharder2469]

@@kimberlynielsen6485 Yes!!! Thank you. It is the same in WA. Like so many other criminals who blame religion, upbringing, home-schooling et al., this woman was making up excuses for her bad behavior.

[@calvinhobbes6118]

No fascist, the State needs to stay out of Home Schooling.

[@nanettevantriesteharder2469]

@@calvinhobbes6118 Just to be clear, my family and I enjoyed reading the Calvin and Hobbes comic books, too. Initially, I enrolled my kids in public elementary schools up to junior high, when it became an unsafe and unhealthy environment. Next, I enrolled them in private school, but the quality of education was not up to my high standards. Then I home-schooled them and other people's children because I met all of the state's department of education's qualifications to do so. Finally, I enrolled them in the Running Start Program in order for them to graduate with a high school diploma and obtain junior college transfer credits while doing so. Both of my children went on to acquire university degrees and have well-paying established careers, which support their families. I believe that parents should be involved in the health, well-being, and education of their kids, in whatever practice setting, since they are their children's primary teachers in early childhood development of physical and mental health. (See Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and Mildred Parten's Six Stages of Play.) Without a strong foundation, children will have a failure to thrive. While parents have a vested interest in the future successes of their children based upon their tax dollars, savings, and student loans, the state has a vested interest in generating governmental and administrative infrastructure to supposedly enable a quality of life for its self-supporting citizens, with a knowledge of history through reading, writing, and arithmetic, who have acquired practical critical thinking skills and abilities to use their heart-minds for the purpose of wise decision-making, so as to vote in elections and to not run afoul of the legal system (Exodus 20). Unfortunately, certain political ideologies have actively indoctrinated students via cognitive dissonance and peer pressure and thereby have infiltrated our public and private institutions of higher learning for many decades. Thus, our public agencies are so politicized they rule over people and undermine the will of parents. Enter the Home-School Movement. Merriam-Webster defines Fascism as "1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition and 2. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control."

[@NotChefCook]

⁠@@calvinhobbes6118 -NO , ABUSER , there need to be oversights and controls and consequences for massive CHILD ABUSE .

[@blk5124]

Serious mental illness can really be so destructive to people's lives. 😢

[@Ariadne76-k3d]

That and cruelty and selfishness.

[@mario-qi3yw]

Thank you Dr Grande for reviewing this case. My grandmother was a hoarder and I can’t imagine those kids living in that environment. I’m glad the children are safe and in a better place.

[@deemariedubois4916]

It was such a cute home with 3 bedrooms, the boys could have had their own rooms. Their mother could have made such a nice home for them with days filled with school friends, sports, and a loving family but instead had her sons locked in a pig pen. Prison is almost to good for both of these nasty human beings but prison is where they belong. These boys could have disappeared and no one would know they were missing because it seems no one knew about their existence. Where is the father of these boys. Where are other family members? Why for 3 1/2 years did no member of this woman’s family make contact with her, check on the boys? Did this man have no family or friends who was aware this woman and her children had moved in with him? No one just drop by? It’s terrifying to think about the possibility of other children who are seemingly unknown except to the adults who have them locked away.

[@anneflynn9614]

Every adult in their lives failed them.

[@geriroush8004]

some people will self isolate and cut themselves off from family.

[@galenyoung7917]

My X was an extreme horder I suspected she had mental problems but not to the extent that you described. Thank you Dr.

[@Polyphemus47]

A "Neighborhood Smell Program" is actually a good idea. With trained dogs on the crew, I'd think a lot of wrongdoing could be exposed. It could be called The Grande Disillusion Program.

[@keepitforreally4501]

lol

[@evoluna3056]

😳

[@5dorkycastillos]

Well, that does put a new spin on the 'GDP'...

[@DaRealKing303]

Hahaha yeah, because police do their job😂

[@southphillylilly]

Well, that's an extreme police state

[@Moonflower3118]

Thank you for the insight. I hadn’t followed this case but glad you chose to publish it. Another horrific case of child neglect etc.

[@amyd1549]

I appreciate your vids!Always informative. Thank you!

[@Plantlover888]

Wow these crazy people always seem to find someone just as crazy who also lack self awareness or ability to feel shame. How are there so many of these types of people in the world?

[@barbarabrooks4747]

It's very sad that the neighbors didn't call CPS even though they were suspicious that something was wrong with the children. Nothing was said about where the children lived before. This is a case where involvement of the non custodial parent would have made such a difference. The birth father could have reported the gross negligence to CPS. However

[@chriscollinsmedia]

Damn straight, Dr. Grande. Thank you for your in depth communication to us viewers!

[@zpalombi]

Dr. Grande! Your channel is my favorite. I love your style 🤙🏻 Keep up the amazing work!🎉

[@daskritterhaus5491]

l have hearing impairment but even your delivery is so good so clear l canconcetrate on the information not the sound

[@bunnymad5049]

A friend's mother had a house like that. No faeces, but rotting food hanging out of cupboards that had had doors removed ... most places were floor to almost ceiling or at least shoulder height with at least little paths through that her father made. I liked her mother enormously, and her dad. Her mum did have something happening emotionally or something. I hope these people can be helped and the children helped.

[@jmpsthrufyre]

These titles never cease to amaze, amuse, and bemuse me.

[@kitwren1797]

Love your sense of humor!

[@Codehead3]

Wow! Another video! Thanks Dr. Grande!

[@reaganwiles_art]

the case of the little girl in NC who went missing a year ago burns me up; what's going on? I hope law enforcement is busy on the dl.

[@jean-baptiste6479]

I had an interest in Wisconsin after reading Rascal (Sterling North) when I was 12. It was in France my professor put that book for us to read. But these stories make me think twice.

[@betterspent]

"Use all of your senses to detect wrongdoing." That made my day

[@DavidDeeble]

I laughed out loud when Manke said he had to "pick (his) battles"? Please. Given the condition in which these boys were forced live, the battles he *did* pick with her must've been pretty major.

[@deuteronimus750]

These kind of situatiions keep occuring often enough that they probably are happening somewhere right now.

[@CankleCankle]

I work in real estate and I had a house that was trying to be sold by the owner. He was a veteran and had health issues so he had to move in with his sister. He had allowed his niece and her children to move into his house. She had a plethora of drug issues and of course she had a drug using boyfriend. As they were asked again and again to vacate the house they basically just ignored it for as long as they could. We finally had to just walk into the house to get an idea of what we had to work with. This house was the worst thing you could imagine. There was trash everywhere, they had not kept up with the trash pickup fees which was like 5$ a month so they started putting all of their trash in the upstairs attic area. This room was completely filled with trash bags all about 10’ high. When we finally came across the boyfriend, he was just laying in his bed looking at his phone. He wouldn’t respond to our pleas for him to bring about his vacancy. He just layed there looking at his phone. It was so weird. The children were in terrible shape, they were all dirty and obviously were not as adept or interested in anything as a young child would be. It was an absolutely heartbreaking to think that the mother could continue to travel down this selfish road of temporary pleasure and just ignore her world crumbling around her. I felt compelled to contact CPS and I made a report but I don’t know if they got the help they needed. It was sad and I hate that people can sink this low. We finally had to get the police involved and they arrested the guy because he wouldn’t leave.

[@wetcanoedogs]

this is tip of the iceberg stuff.

[@michellesartori6695]

Thank you for presenting this case. I found it very interesting! Sad, but interesting!

[@itchysheets1222]

Dr Grande, disgust insensitivity is an interesting topic, could you cover it in more detail in a video about that?

[@blk5124]

I have a sister who lives this way - the filth and hoarding part. Nobody knows why. It's really strange.

[@Flamsterette]

Thanks for the upload, Dr. Grande! Your true fans love your humour and sarcasm. November 26 is National Cake Day, Shopping Reminder Day again, the Feast of St. Stylianos, and Good Grief Day.

[@manewland1]

Another weekend over means another backlog of videos to watch with coffee this morning. Thanks, as always, Dr. Grande!

[@thelocalmaladroit8873]

This is so disturbing and I wonder how common it is since these stories are so frequent. Even animals clean their young.

[@kd1inoly693]

My heart goes out to those poor boys. I hope we can get an update on their progress.

[@karenneill9109]

I live in Canada, and we approach homeschooling differently. All children who are homeschooled have to be registered with a school district. Every child has two home visits from a teacher per year (zoom during the pandemic). You have to have proof of a curriculum, and proof that it’s being followed. Parents who aren’t responsive are referred to CPS. Children whose birth was never registered, or who move very frequently can fall through the cracks, but there seem to be far fewer cases like this. It amazes me that there are NO checks on kids who are being homeschooled in the US. Isn’t school mandatory?

[@anneflynn9614]

Those boys were most likely completely unknown to authorities.

[@nanettevantriesteharder2469]

It is almost exactly the same in the US as it is in Canada. Home-schoolers must be enrolled annually at grade level into a supervising public or private school system, which checks student progress quarterly and annually as steps to be advanced to the next grade. Local truancy officers are responsible for home visits. Taking a criminally abusive and neglectful mentally ill parent's word for it is insane.

[@karenneill9109]

@@nanettevantriesteharder2469 I wonder what the difference is then. Because these cases are very rare in Canada. We have had some issues with religious communities not following the curriculum, but even then, the cases we hear of are ones where abuse is discovered because the homeschool teachers insisted on visiting. Maybe it’s because of our medical system. Unless you don’t register the birth, someone notices if you’re not doing the bare minimum. If your child doesn’t get their recommended vaccinations, you get a letter, then a phone call. It’s not really just about the vaccinations (my youngest was delayed due to health reasons), but maybe if parents don’t respond, then a little red flag goes up? I know they asked very specific questions about who my child’s doctor was, etc. I don’t know if the government is able to see if all children are registered for school, which could be another layer of checking up on kids.

[@NotChefCook]

Honey we are a SHITSHOW down here .

[@UNOwn-ib1td]

@@karenneill9109The US has around 300 million more people than Canada.

[@rahrahrah8405]

My parents were like this. Home was infested with ants, roaches, and slugs. There were years we didn't have running water. Had to get buckets of water from the ditch to flush the toilet. Had to go to camp grounds to take showers. They pulled us all out of school to homeschool once we hit middle school. Haven't talked to them in over 10 years now because they will not admit they did anything wrong.

[@TheOnlyKateslate]

Some people really should not be parents.

[@belladrome]

Manky (Manke) is a word we use in Scotland to describe someone or something that is filthy, dirty or disgusting, and that appears to be exactly what Joel is!

[@kellykane7586]

I actually started making excuses for this woman in my mind and had to stop myself, i thought " No don't come up with tragic reasons this woman decided to neglect her kids". Sometimes I assign reasons to women who do terrible things because at the end of the day I Don't Want To Believe They're Capable of such things. I know it's wrong but it's almost like I expect more from a woman....im aware of this tendency and im trying to stop doing it

[@ahill4642]

Good. Most people are good and moral IMHO… but all sexes are capable of being hideous.

[@spOOkytimes]

That's understandable honestly. No one wants to believe truly evil people exist. They may have explanations such as being mentally unwell but explanations aren't excuses. Plenty of mentally unwell people seek help and don't have kids or make sure their kids are properly cared for.

[@pisceanbeauty2503]

@@spOOkytimes To be honest, I think calling people evil is a simplistic response and is more about the people saying needing to feel righteous. We can hold people accountable for their actions while also understanding the reasons why they take the actions they do. There was likely some severe mental illness involved in this case. Hoarding generally involves OCD or some other disorder.

[@vaneast411]

those kids have been delt difficult hands.... such unfortunate children

[@sherielowe4256]

Dr. Grande please explain the feces on the walls. I have heard of prison inmates and mental patients doing this. Is there a name for this very troubling behavior.

[@tamedshrew235]

I hope the boys are getting the care they need to recover, maybe even thrive someday.

[@pipermccool]

I once worked at a college (a college!) where I was expected to “teach” Hooked on Phonics to kids on academic probation. I quit.

[@eadweard.]

Why is that inappropriate? (Not a rhetorical question.)

[@toomanymarys7355]

​@@eadweard.Because a student going for a degree in a college should be able to read.

[@pricklypear7516]

Just curious: What would you recommend for struggling readers? If I recall correctly, programs like Hooked on Phonics advocate the association of each letter to a sound and, from there, sounding out the letters to form words. It's probably the way MOST of us learned to read. The Whole Language system came later (and was tragically embraced by teaching colleges) and held that students somehow absorb the entire word at a glance. (The system left MANY of its victims confused and functionally illiterate.)

[@jenniferbyrne4567]

@@pricklypear75161 in 5 has dyslexia so the orton gillingham method works for them. Phonics and whole language usually won’t work for dyslexia.

[@tymondabrowski12]

​@@pricklypear7516I mean, tbh, English is terribly inconsistent, so letter by letter is not as sure fire technique as it is in many other languages with latin alphabets. In Polish, we definitely learned letter-by-letter, then syllable-by-syllable reading befote the kid was able to read the whole sentence fliently.

[@cplmpcocptcl6306]

🥺There are no words. I’m just heartbroken 💔.

[@GGiblet]

very manky, yes, and so sad! this story is disturbing, a Yikes upon Yikes situation .. thank you as always Doc!

[@MrPhotodoc]

Courts don't mess around when it comes to child abuse. Those who choose to do so risk the weight of the legal system. Not to mention a life sentence of pain and regret.

[@Neilsowards]

This reminds me not only of the Turpins, but of Jeanie, the girl who was kept in a room and tied to a chair for many years. This happened in California also I believe. She has spent her life in care. The question is...did the abuse cause her lifelong disability or was she intellectually disabled before the abuse. I wonder about the boys. Did I hear the work "autism" in this case? Are the boys autistic? That might explain parents not knowing how to handle difficult behavior and being not able to access help. Are these boys autistic....or do they just act autistic because of the abuse?

[@Mint-kj9kw]

I assume they had environmental autism....which is autism caused by neglect/abuse.

[@nanettevantriesteharder2469]

@@Mint-kj9kw Environmental and lifestyle dietary deficiency due to poor diet is associated with autism. Child abuse and neglect would incorporate malnutrition/starvation.

[@josh656]

Feces on the walls seems like a pretty worthwhile battle to pick.

[@rain1956]

My paranoid schizophrenic single mother also kept me hostage (less extremely than in this video). She presented a normal facade. But she was delusional and didn't know how to form relationships. She kept me home from school for months. She forced me to lie in bed all day with her for months (after having slept all night). She groomed me to be her only friend/partner, the only one who "thought like her". She wouldn't let me form relationships with others (out of jealousy). With pills and water in hand, she once threatened to kill herself because I'd been "bad" (I hadn't; I was so compliant). Another time, she stopped eating and told me she expected to die of starvation any day. I'd go to bed thinking I might find her dead in the morning. I thought it was my fault (so I couldn't tell anyone). And then there was the time she casually told me that smoking kills people (she smoked). I had a nightmare about that. I was 7, and terrorised. At the age of 3, I told a woman I'd just met that I wanted to live with her. I got to do that for 2 weeks. It was magical. I was devastated when my mother came to take me back. I thought I'd never have to see her again. Despite the abuse, I was getting my life together in my 20s until a therapist abused me. My letter of complaint to her professional association (which took me many painful months to write) was dismissed. It changed the course of my life. My conclusion (not totally conscious) was that the world that I'd thought would help me heal once I grew up is also horrible. In the 40 years since then, I've lived like a ghost, unable to work, without even one friend, eaten up by loneliness. Reading Alice Miller's books opened my eyes. Like fish in water, we swim in sewers of abuse. It's so common. We no longer notice it. Or we see it as minor. But there still are degrees of abuse. And so much apathy about what happens to other people's kids. What a waste of human potential.

[@SpukiTheLoveKitten75]

I hope you get help soon. There are good therapists out there and you can still heal and triumph. Don't give up. It will get better.

[@doodlekaboodel]

You are not alone out here.

[@nopamineLevel100]

Excellent analysis, it really interesting. I also enjoy your subtle wit.

[@sunglassesron9464]

These so called "parents" are scum! I hope the boys get a lovely foster home with loving parents to give them a decent upbringing. Hopefully time will be a good healer to them too.

[@SpukiTheLoveKitten75]

I sometimes wonder if cases like this are due to sadism and public assistance fraud. Why keep them in filth and deprive them of basic care, a social life, etc. What is sad is also that the house, from the outside, looks like such a cute house. These two weirdos were living in a cute house they decided to trash and held the kids prisoner in one room. Sure there's likely a mental illness factor but this is evil. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a matter of sadism and control. Hoarding is one thing but treating one's kids like that is another.

[@moonshineblues204]

I have Raised by a Hoarder Disorder. RBHD: that means no matter the worth of something I will throw it away if I feel like it's creeping up on me😂

[@carolynherrmann9404]

Exactly! Same here.

[@thieltech1]

Is that a picture of joel and katie dressed in Christmas outfits? They look so clean , happy and well put together in that picture!!! What on earth happen!

[@mynameispeaches]

Glad they busted out. They are survivors for sure. I hope they get the assistance and care they need.

[@deehampton8331]

Hi Dr Grande, Dee here from Chesterfield, England, again. I love your dead-pan delivery and dark humour. I have some pretty heavy duty mental- and physical health issues and your episodes are very reassuring because your use of the DSM and your experience and wisdom impose a logical framework on chaotic situations. Beats the prozac. You also have a soft but confident voice which is great for me as I have hyper-sensitivity to sounds which means I have to switch off some people's podcasts owing to their grating, high-pitched voices. Have you considered doing an episode on Mick Philpot from Derby, England? He was an accidental family annihilator. He already had an on-screen presence as he had been on the Jeremy Kyle show (UK version of Jerry Springer) becuase he had two wives. Anyway, please drive carefully and take care at the shooting range as I am using you as improvised psychiatric treatment. I have been in treatment since 1982, and experienced everything from sulpuride to Lacanian therapy and your shows have the fewest side-effects. God bless. Dee x

[@kodek1234]

40 years in prison seems right.

[@relentlesseducator]

Dr. Grande please cover the Blackstone, MA “House of Horrors”. It’s similar but much much more heinous. So much so that the house was leveled after the investigation and an empty lot remains. What’s extra crazy is that the house was located next door to the police headquarters.