Ethan, James, and Jennifer Crumbley Case Analysis | Failure to Report Leads to Manslaughter Charges

This video answers the question: Can I analyze the case of Ethan, James, and Jennifer Crumbley?
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References:
nypost.com/2021/12/03/ethan-c...
www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...
www.nytimes.com/2021/12/04/us...
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-can...

[@momszycat4148]

Two observations, 1. Ethans parents aquired an expensive law firm for their defence but Ethan has court appointed council. 2. These parents left their child to fend for himself with no emotional support from them and tried to avoid capture when he was facing the most devastating circumstances in his life. No wonder that kid is so messed up.

[@lilachoney]

they prob figured they would move to another state and just have another kid hopefully one that is not" special needs" or slow

[@happycamper4thewin]

Is Ethan their only child together?

[@barbarawentzel6202]

No wonder.

[@ETBrooD]

@Boxing Boxing That attitude might be the reason why the boy did this...

[@sfuterfas]

The truly scary thing is how the parents were able to afford the expensive law firm when they had money issues. So who is paying for these lawyers?

[@dizzystill2276]

Warning signs weren’t missed, They were ignored.

[@moniqueloomis9772]

👍👍👍

[@SoulDelSol]

100

[@TecOneself]

We might need a dictator Era again to get adjusted and firmed. No love :(

[@I_Ace]

Obviously. The 15 yr old parents dont care.

[@dennisyoung4631]

And, in addition to “not caring” (about E.) This is practically a clear picture of Junior being manipulated over an extended period of time to become an assassin *so as to accomplish the “parents’” goals.* I recall reading a book named “if you really love me?” by Ann Rule that had a parent/parents doing that exact thing.

[@chanelhp2889]

So many folks having children and do not grasp the amount of effort, dedication and sacrifice to raise a child into a fully functional adult who is aware of themselves and others. This case is makes me appreciate my parents on a whole other level. Thanks for this breakdown, Dr. Todd!

[@uniquegod1997]

This is true, BUT never forget that its really never the parents only fault. There are always two sides to the story. there are so many bad parents and the child becomes successful, drug addicts or just a normal normal functioning person. There are also Kids who get bullied but they dont turn as a school shooter out. It's both a combination of this and mental health problems and that certain something that makes the person do it.

[@shelleyscott4332]

Couldn't agree with this more. Children learn what they live and it's of paramount importance we learn them well. If we don't, society pay the price!

[@shelleyscott4332]

@@uniquegod1997 agree with this also as there are a small amount who do have a great upbringing. Nature nurture do go hand-in-hand. These kids have a genetic predisposition and it can take any setting to ignite that. I have first hand experience of this.

[@uniquegod1997]

@@shelleyscott4332 true! i agree

[@ziegweid]

Yup. Why abortion needs to be legal

[@paperback10]

Writing this in early February 2024. Mother's trial is well underway in Michigan. I am still baffled why the Dean of Oxford high school failed to send this obviously disturbed child home with his parents. Both parents were present at the meeting. The school counselors also demonstrated poor professional judgment in recommending mental health assistance within 48 hours. That's like saying nothing urgent going on here. Dr. Grande's assessment still right on the nose two years later.

[@cady__]

The counselor said he wanted them to take Ethan home and get help that day. Both of the parents refused and said they had to leave (Jennifer’s boss testimony made it clear Jennifer way lying). The counselor had no idea they were lying though. As he only knew about the suicidal ideation, and the parents did not give him information like Ethan having a gun, and being left alone at home, being allowed to get drunk at home etc, he believed being around people would be best. ALL of the evidence shows how negligent the parents were by not giving the school more information as well as lying to them.

[@skeevynicks]

No, the school pushed for him to go home that day. The parents lied and said they couldn’t take time off work that day to take him home and be with him. The counselor was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He didn’t want Ethan to be at home alone but he felt uncomfortable sending him back to class. The school counselor’s testimony was one of the hardest to watch at her trial as it’s clear how serious the school was taking it. I actually think Dr. Grande’s assessment of Jennifer Crumbley’s conviction that he just put it out isn’t as accurate as his others and I disagreed with him on that take.

[@openyourmind3763]

Yes, if the parents refused to take him for a psychiatric assessment, the school could have called local law enforcement to transport him, at the very least keep him in the office.

[@Big_Tex]

“You have to learn not to get caught”. That’s some top-notch parenting there.

[@xXxCAN1B1SN0SC0PExXx]

Looked at ammo and gun deals plenty of times in school lmao

[@AarmOZ84]

Would have been great advice for Lee Harvey Oswald.

[@thereisbeautyinthisworld7251]

Generally speaking on the whole, this is pretty much the norm in our society. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard people say that it is not bad if you do something wrong (small or large), it's only bad if you get caught. From cheating on tests, cheating on your spouse, theft, assault, all the way to murder... As long as you don't get caught. What a smart little person you are. Kudos. 🤦‍♀️

[@DonnaSnyder]

@@thereisbeautyinthisworld7251 That's a sorry state of our society.

[@PerfectTroy1]

This is why America is in trouble. The family is breaking down and there is no concept of what it means to be a citizen.

[@Sunnysky321]

“You have to learn not to get caught” says a lot about the character and integrity of Jennifer Crumbly.

[@GiftSparks]

This is tacit encouragement of the kid’s activities. Grounds to remove the kid from that awful home.

[@TAGMZs63]

Ethans cowardly parents were going to abandon their son in jail. Everyone failed to help this kid when he clearly needed it. My heart goes out to the families of the innocent people who were killed. Unimaginable loss. Great assessment Dr Grande

[@AAA-hv7nr]

That is enough of a character reference for me to convict if I was on a jury and I understand that character is not what is on trial but actions. I also know that actions are influenced by our character. I feel bad for a child that has a parent like that but still can not condone the actions of a fifteen year old who knows the difference between right and wrong. There are no words for anybody affected by this tradegy. My prayers are for any survivor that will live with this for the rest of their lives. That child should never have been returned to the classroom and I would hold school officials responsible for doing so.

[@flyingcatsofthesalishsea.]

And the priors the parents have, is clear indication to me they have no clear idea of what common sense is...and are repeat offenders..are incapable of any accountability, obvious how they would have voted in the lsat election.

[@Somegirl811]

It would be a normal thing to say if he had been caught texting or something. Shopping seems a bit more disrespectful to the teacher because off the higher level of distraction. Shopping for ammo might not have seemed nefarious to these parents, who felt a hand gun was a fitting gift for him. To me, that combined with the drawings,would be concerning.

[@bruppieo5118]

I remember in high school they sent a student home for the day because he accidentally brought a POCKET KNIFE to school and he had to see a therapist after that. Nothing happened afterwards and he was a totally cool dude. But it still hurt no one to make sure.

[@RichardFStripeRendezvous]

I was pulled out of class THREE times between middle and high school by police officers. I was one of few white kids in my schools and I fit the stereotype. I was quiet, weird, had no friends, and just generally an outcast. I was bullied and taunted both to my face and behind my back, and school shooter jokes and self harm jokes about me turned into rumors until I was reported three separate times. On each occasion, I was pulled out of class and walked to the counselor's office by a police officer, questioned with a police officer and school administrator present, had both of my parents called, and had my bag searched. Afterwards, I was walked back to class by a police officer. I was also required to attend follow up counseling at least once that I can remember. In my case, there were no red flags or warning signs other than that I fit a stereotype. I never made threats, never had violent drawings, none of the things Ethan Crumbley did. And they still took every necessary precaution to ensure I wouldn't hurt anyone. There is a disgusting amount of negligence in MANY areas in this case and it's shocking to me.

[@RichardFStripeRendezvous]

@@astrammd Honestly, in retrospect, I think the actions that were taken were appropriate since they couldn't have known for sure and shouldn't take any chances, but I still feel like I was treated as if I had done something wrong, and I do wish the attitude they had about it was a little different.

[@jenmailsouth4155]

@@RichardFStripeRendezvous I'm sorry you had to live that. ❤

[@jenmailsouth4155]

I remember in junior high taking my knife collection for show and tell. I also remember in high school seeing a guy walking down the crowded hallway with a shotgun on his shoulder that he'd brought for show and tell. It's a very different day and time we're living in.

[@RichardFStripeRendezvous]

@@blackthornsloe8049 By the time I got to high school it wasn't so bad. People weren't so much into bullying by then but they liked to tease. I just started teasing right back. I only felt alienated because a lot of the teasing was race related with me being in the minority at my school. I was very upset with the way the school handled the rumors about me, but I've since come to realize that was the best thing they could have done, since they had no way of knowing the legitimacy of them. And as we can see with the Crumbley case, not taking every case seriously can end in disaster.

[@willstrickland9952]

These parents smh. My kid got suspended immediately for saying "bang bang" to another kid and she's 6. How did this pass in high school?

[@emmawills4112]

Suspended at 6 for that??? That’s ridiculous. Why couldn’t a teacher just explain not to say that?

[@BrotherBoresIsBest]

You know why.

[@RowanWarren78]

@@BrotherBoresIsBest because of numerous school shootings, teachers are understandably on high alert. That said, a person can overreact, which is absolutely what the 6 year old's teacher did.

[@kianna270]

Have you been to high school these days? In my experience elementary and middle schools, the teachers and stuff were more observant & caught these problems. When I got to high school, there was so many people and so many teachers it’s honestly hard to focus on single students and help them. It’s a sad reality but that’s the way it is. Teachers are more lax bc they see you of more of a young adult than a kid, so they don’t intervene as much as they would if it was an elementary or middle school. I can 100% guarantee you if I said “bang bang” at my old high school, literally nothing would happen.

[@emmawills4112]

@@kianna270 I have been to high school these days. I just graduated

[@googlegoogle9712]

Every child deserves a parent, but not all parents deserve children. That’s always what pops up in my mind when I hear about tragedies like these.

[@MrSubmariner76]

The issue here is mental health issues and the availability of dangerous firearms. Tighter controls must be put in place to seperate the dangerous people from the dangerous weapons.

[@karmazon8955]

@@MrSubmariner76 A car could be a "dangerous weapon ". What exactly are you implying?

[@doneestoner9945]

@Karmazon. A car is not designed to kill people. A gun is.

[@MrChachiyo]

@@MrSubmariner76 Do you own a firearm?

[@alanasoul344]

This is a combination of mental health and a very evil child, many children grow up in horrible homes but don’t got to school and kills there friends this is pure evilness also he is not that young he should know right from wrong, yes his parents are clearly terrible but that doesn’t take the blame away from him.

[@bg6b7bft]

I guess what bothers me most is the school seeing him draw pictures of guns and google for bullets and still not ever asking the parents "Does Ethan have access to any guns?"

[@candice4855]

Agreed! Some serious mistakes made by the school.

[@MsGaella]

Agreed. A completely obvious question. Could’ve been life-saving for four students.

[@wandabairdlilroseartworks4029]

Yes that question should have been asked but I suspect the parents would have “ protected” this child’s “ right to bear arms” at least based on the moms previous blog posts. Clearly they did not see any danger in a child having access to guns .....I believe they would not have been honest in their response

[@bg6b7bft]

@@wandabairdlilroseartworks4029 Agree. The question may not have saved 4 lives, but it might at least have served to secure two convictions.

[@humaneleaguelancPA]

How do you know they didn't ask that question; I don't think everything is out there to the public yet.

[@aka0lostangel]

I think it says a lot as to how much the parents knew; when the active shooter situation was announced to the community, the moms first reaction was not “Oh no I hope my child is safe.” But was instead, “Oh no, my child is probably the shooter.”

[@hellovicki6779]

Good point, very revealing of what they knew and ignored. Reckless.

[@heidiw8406]

They saw the picture he drew. The staff saw the picture he drew. They all saw the words he wrote. He was crying for help and nobody listened.

[@lisadavis9535]

The father ran home to check on the gun, found it missing and notified the mother after which she texted, "Ethan don't do it." Because of the picture Ethan drew, the father suspected it was him and that is why he went to look for the gun. He never would have had to look if he had properly locked it up, but he didn't.

[@Jlynnjoneski]

Yep, she knew it could happen. And it did...after the meeting she texted her fire captain that they were still "on" fir that same night! Testified she only met him during the mornings in a Costco parking lot...a liar and a real class act smdh

[@nellie3176]

Also, in addition to my first comment, I would like to thank the teachers that tried to report what was going on. They saw something and said something. I am sure teachers do not have a lot of training in this area, but I appreciate that they really tried. It seems they are the only adults that tried to intervene.

[@hellovicki6779]

Yes they saw something, said something and sadly then did not do enough.

[@freddieblue6351]

It is not the teacher that can suspend or search their belongings...that is the higher up staff of the school that make those decisions.

[@user-du3dz9rt1w]

​@freddieblue6351 with all due respect you are missing the point.

[@annerose1925]

Yes. The teacher was the only one who acted appropriately. The teachers only mistake was expecting the admin to understand what she/he, the teacher understood. This was a student who needed immediate gelp.

[@rigopeligro]

I’m a middle school teacher and have sadly met numerous parents that also neglect their kids and fail to take responsibility for their behavior. I’m sure there were several other warning signs that parents ignored. I’ve come to realize that there are adults that should never have kids. These parents a prime example.

[@marierees8890]

The school failed to protect their students. There was plenty of evidence that Ethan was a threat to himself and others. LE should have been called to say he needed counseling in 48 hours is obsured and cost students their lives.

[@susiegomez4102]

I agree with you 💯 % on this.

[@aradiasnowdon7016]

@@johnryan3913 why are you defending these shit parents? They don't seem to be responsible gun owners, and they were neglectful to their kid. Whether or not you think they were responsible for the deaths, it's clear that they weren't good parents.

[@mountaindew3201]

@@aradiasnowdon7016 just because of the few footage we seen of the parents doesn’t justify their whole actions. This kid was bullied and like you I just like how nobody’s mentions bullying in school. They tend to ignore that fact. They like pointing fingers in desperation. You’re just as a bully as everyone else

[@jcott9735]

@@johnryan3913 and whats that broad conclusion? Tintelligence / care

[@debnich8163]

As a therapist, this one hurts. Ethan was SCREAMING out for help and no one intervened appropriately. Your analysis is spot on.

[@jasond.healerlynch5255]

It is so sad, he literally wrote " help me' these parents are a symptom of our current society, at least in Central Michigan.

[@Pro-Deo]

Almost- parents who adhere to untoward, unworthy and trashy value systems claim to never be a part of the problem, but everyone else is. He still had a CHOICE to kill or not and he CHOSE to. Their son is NOT the innocent victim. But Hana St. Juliana who was 14, Tate Myre, who was 16, Madisyn Baldwin who was 17 and Justin Shilling who was 17, WERE. As are the other wounded students and staff wounded from his gun, and their families and friends.

[@jasond.healerlynch5255]

@@Pro-Deo I agree.

[@debnich8163]

@@Pro-Deo never said he was an “innocent victim”

[@jondeare]

Or he could be Faking. Trying his way to get out of it all.

[@Maniac1607]

"My life is useless[.]" When you feel like you have nothing to lose, bad things happen.

[@currywhoremaxxer8141]

Yep. He was getting bullied for sure.

[@DetoNaGamerscom]

@@currywhoremaxxer8141 If he was bullied, he would know he was a good punch bag...

[@forestofgloom1353]

word

[@lisadavis9535]

So heartbreaking....

[@highatthebeach]

In middle school (21 yo now) I was well aware that half the kids in my class were sh-ing or really unstable. High stress/ depression with the expectations. when I told the counselor that they (the school) needed to do something, she told me, "there is no way we can get a large group of kids together to discuss something like that." Literally a month later a girl in the class after mine committed. Then another. Three deaths that year. Kids aren't just pretending to have feelings.

[@VOiDED50120]

This just shows that schools really dont care about there students most of the time.

[@iashleighx]

what is sh-ing?

[@legally_ellecee1309]

They need to be heard and listened to just like adults are, and early on. This is so tragic.

[@legally_ellecee1309]

@@iashleighx doing something to yourself to cause physical harm….very sad.

[@dahliablack9017]

You would think that after columbine in 99 and all of the others that have happened since that these schools would take more action when all the red flags are going off when it comes to a student or students. This could have been stopped and those 4 kids didn't have to lose their lives! So sad 😢

[@kristalynfernandez3350]

As a social worker with experience in a Baker Act receiving facility (Florida's involuntary mental health hospitalization), I am extremely confused by the choice of these counselors. They decided on a 48-hour counseling mandate in response to violent drawings/writing with the addition of an explicit cry for help. From which crisis response training did that come from? On top of everything, the "calm" demeanor should have been a major red flag because it was a textbook example of inappropriate affect. This alone shows callousness and/or a potentially dissociated state.

[@Throatzillaaa]

Question for you: can the Baker Act be issued on child, like someone under 18?

[@GoodnightJLH]

I agree with you totally! I watched the arraignments for all 3 Crumbleys and I must say that Ethan’s affect wasn’t just calm. It was flat and extremely matter of fact. We really need to figure out why so many cops, judges and school officials seem to think that “calm” people are mentally stable and innocent. We so often see this red flag of inappropriate affect labeled as calmness.

[@nathanj9350]

Since you work in this field, can you explain the abuse of patients in relation to the Baker Act? Or you’re just going to avoid talking about it?

[@craigfinnegan8534]

Even an untrained amateur understands the idea of the calm before the storm. What did Ethan Crumbley need to do to get immediate intervention - take the gun out of his backpack and wave it around the room while screaming for blood? Think back to Brian Laundrie's traffic stop in Moab, where he played Mr Nice Guy. The foolish cops gave him a pass, thinking his girlfriend must be the problem because she was crying. Huh? What would anyone with basic intelligence expect a guilty person to do - act like a guilty person, or compensate by acting completely innocent, or even over-compensate by playing the victim? Tragedies like these shooting sprees are American's own collective ignorance catching up with them.

[@patriciatorres5667]

@@nathanj9350 I don't think this is the time or place for your inquiries. Get professional help from your provider

[@jamielynne-magney2574]

As a psychotherapist with far too much experience of parents dismissiveness toward their child’s mental health, I thank you. I have, with much regret, recently decided to no longer work with this population, as the cost to me is too high with the mental and emotional strain. Love the kids but the parents get in the way by condoning, either implicitly or explicitly, the behavior. My daughter, a fabulous science and math teacher in middle school, has just also decided to leave her chosen profession. Burnout all the around with our society not holding people accountable and responsible and the rampant denial that we are in a downward spiral.

[@Mama_Bear524]

This is so damn upsetting. It’s always the best ones who leave. I get why and I don’t fault you and your daughter but damnit! It’s really sad that this is the fallout. Not fair for anyone. But kudos to both of you for taking care of yourselves.

[@michaelvillynch9643]

It's a hard thing to have compassion and want to help people in this day and age

[@pattymayocakes]

Social worker here - the burnout is real

[@vianjelos]

Parents dont realize the kids grow into adults and suddenly that behavior that was annoying or naughty as a child becomes a liabilty or danger as an adult. And they always turn around and say "I rasied them right idk why they ended up doing that horrible thing"...setting propper boundaries and listening to feed back from others in regaurds to your kids behaviors and needs is so important for their development and the saftey of others once your child grows into a teen and adult.

[@michaelwaninger3155]

That's why my mother quit being a special ed teacher 40 years ago.

[@BlutoBlutarsky]

When my wife and I bought our home my father-in-law loaned us his .22 long rifle for home protection. About a year later my 13 year old brother was was removed from his home by CPS and placed with us. We knew he had been abused by our mother and generally neglected as my sister and I had experienced the same circumstances. Over time it became apparent that he was experiencing a considerable degree of depression and he started hanging out with a crowd we weren't comfortable with, engaging in the goth lifestyle including the all black wardrobe with the trenchcoat worn every day to school, even in hot weather. His grades were plummeting and we found alcohol in his possession. He retreated from communications with us in spite of our efforts to keep him involved in school and home activities as well as routines with my wife's family who were always warm and inclusive. It was a weird dynamic. We weren't parents and had no experience with children outside of a little babysitting of elementary age kids for friends. We certainly weren't his parents and my parents were still involved and had visitation rights. Eventually it became obvious that my parents had no intention of taking the necessary steps CPS required to get him back home. We were of little financial resources and didn't know what to do but one thing we could absolutely do was get that gun out of the house.

[@iammojojojo1646]

This is so incredibly heartbreaking all the way around. What he did was absolutely horrific, but his parents totally neglected and abandoned that poor boy. They should be ashamed of themselves.

[@SJ-ni6iy]

This is one of the many reasons there is a teacher shortage! Schools do not back up their teachers and fold for parents instead. Parents would be shocked if they knew some of the things that go in schools. School authorities are notorious for under reacting and sweeping things under the rug.

[@grammiesspirit2667]

What you say is, sadly, so true. And I believe that the COVID crisis, and the virtual learning necessity removed the stresses of the classroom environment from teachers' lives long enough for them to stay away forever. Then, there are the kids who do have mental health issues who are supposed, daily, by a handful of highly trained teachers who left their positions also. Now you have students who need support without that support and general education teachers with a cup of clabbered milk running over, out, and down. PTSD HAD to have surfaced in some educators' psyches during this COVID crisis. God help us all.

[@MissDeviancy]

Fellow teacher here too. Amen! I've been saying this for years! I the public would be SHOCKED to see/hear/witness the crap that goes on in public schools. Can't speak for private ones, but man what a mess. Very little learning going on, mostly babysitting and behavior management. And on the teacher end, trying to say emotionally and mentally sane to even be able to walk through the door again the next day and do it again.

[@staceystrukel1917]

Absolutely! I can not wait for my kids to be out of the school system. Principals have turned into politicians and only care about saving face. Kids aren't disciplined.

[@reneedennis2011]

As a former grade-level teacher, I can attest to this.

[@reneedennis2011]

@@staceystrukel1917 Absolutely 💯!

[@LangwidereLMFT]

These parents were told that their son was having violent thoughts and was crying out for help, and yet they chose to do nothing.

[@Mama_Bear524]

Worse, they gave him the tools to kill.

[@SoulDelSol]

He literally wrote "help me" showing thoughts of killing people wouldn't stop.

[@TiffWaffles]

@@Mama_Bear524 That bothers me as well. No way was this kid just having these thoughts on the spur of the moment. He probably spoke up about his issues, desperate to seek any kind of help before he drew that picture on the desk. This kind of thing required a lot of planning that his parents would have noticed had they had their eyes open and their ears listening. It seems like the parents knew that their son had done this even before the identity of the shooter was put out there as well. So they knew that he wasn't normal and chose to ignore it. I wonder if these parents feel that mental health is just an excuse for failure or some BS like that. Here there child is crying out for help any way he can, probably for months or years, and they chose not to do anything. Even on the day they were told by the school that there wasn't something right about their son...

[@TiffWaffles]

@KZbin will be the next MySpace soon Especially since their son seemed to have been crying for help long before he took that gun to school. Supposing that he had made the decision to kill himself instead of hurting and killing others, they literally gave him the means to do so by putting that gun in his hand.

[@MichieHoward]

Well they didn't nothing, they engaged him in violent activities and bought him guns.

[@amiela_]

The fact that all of it could’ve been avoided… May the victims Rest In Peace and the family members heal.

[@currywhoremaxxer8141]

Ethan was the victim; he was being bullied by those 4 people. They deserved everything that happened to them.

[@kristis4147]

“If they can’t make a firm decision why do they make decisions at all”.. very true Also I’m shocked they didn’t check his backpack. Something so simple and accessible could’ve saved lives. The blame of corse is on the parents and the shooter, even if he was a kid

[@jenniferdaulby5519]

My thoughts exactly! If the school couldn't search the backpack - I think the parents, who knew the gun was missing, should have looked.

[@jnagarya519]

@@jenniferdaulby5519 The gun was NOT missing. It was bought by the father FOR the son. Thus the gun was with the son all along.

[@georgemonde8237]

They didn't need to search his bag they knew the gun was in there and didn't give a shit

[@jnagarya519]

@@georgemonde8237 Are you saying that the school authorities knew?

[@divinetiming8422]

The backpacks are not even allowed in the class rooms. The counselor went and brought the back pack out of the class that already had ended and gave it back to Ethan.

[@susie2366]

I’m a retired school principal and I conducted searches of backpacks (with school administrators as witnesses) when safety concerns indicated the necessity of it. However, my principal colleagues have stated that they were worried about the legality of searching “private property”. This is an issue that must be addressed.

[@janesmith9628]

One thing which wouldn't have required a search that doesn't seem to have been reported: Didn't any of the school administrators ask the child or the parents if Ethan had access to a firearm??

[@AutumnJen]

When I was in school (late 90s Michigan) they could legally check anything in the school and parking lot. Lockers as well as cars. The stoners started parking on the road so they couldn't check their cars. (lol) The police even helped by bringing in the K9 unit.

[@remissiveslave]

Years ago at my former high-school where I work at, a outdoor maintenance guy backed a truck into something (I wasn't there) and apparently made a noise that the school or whoever notified the school thought was a gunshot, and the correctional equivalent of a jail but for school runs outside trying to track Down the would be shooter, with no gun. Wtf is the point of that. Just authorize a trained staff member for shit like this or even a few. What good would a unarmed staff member be foot chasing a shooter. Some places are so dumb.

[@chattingman8546]

The way high worked is they can search ur locker but not ur personal possessions. They would have had to have law enforcement check his bags.

[@hondafreedom9329]

I am a retired elementary school teacher, and in one of a few cases I had, the AP checked a student's backpack, and the backlash from the parents was enormous; they were angry and going to "sue." Of course, they didn't, but it became an area of concern for administration over the 'private property' issue that you address for a host of reasons. There is SO much I could say about all that this tragic incident brings up.

[@coloradobrad6779]

Yup, always the parents. My point exactly. When I was a teacher a kid threatened to shoot another kid in front of the class. He was removed for a while. I naively thought he was going to get some help, some treatment, some kind of clinical medical evaluation with prescriptions, counseling, therapy, and then also parenting classes for his parents on how to effectively, you know, raise their child correctly who has no empathy and low impulse control. You know what happened? NONE of that. He was allowed to return and all he had was a handwritten note from a PASTOR stating that he was a good kid and he would not hurt any one. 😳. Yeah I quit teaching then.

[@bkm2797]

Stunning isn't it, makes you wonder if this is being left unaddressed on purpose.

[@nancyayotte2297]

That is a shame. I'm sorry that happened to you. How very discouraging that must have been for you . Mental health America wake up and do something about it PLEASE

[@klg4zy]

Exactly the point I'm trying to make to adults here in the comments who have never experienced education from the inside. Parents always get their way.

[@LtRee96se]

I don't blame you. I was student teaching and a kid drew a pocket knife on me. I took it away and we all went to the principal. The kid was returned to class and I was "scolded" for putting my hands on a student. I pointed out the fact that he had a weapon, but they were all about me taking it away from the kid. I was a young college student, a girl, and smaller in stature to the kid. I quit the program the next day. It wasn't worth being threatened by the school for worrying about my safety. They didn't care about either myself, potentially getting injured or the kid being upset and disturbed. You couldn't pay me enough to go into teaching now. This was long before the Columbine shooting.

[@joettekanter3489]

This is a true tragedy of child neglect, and a child desperately crying out for help!😔

[@lisabagchi3147]

This is not a psychological analysis of Ethan or his parents. It's simply an in-depth report of the incident, available from any news source.

[@wigglebolt4079]

The fact that the parents fled as their son was being arrested says a lot. I bet the son is going to end up testifying against his parents regarding their charges

[@lifespanwellnessbeauty-60i64]

At the arraignment, their stupid lawyer claimed they weren't a flight risk when they had just been brought back from fleeing.

[@CorryGal]

Stop spreading the lie that Ethan's parents fled. They were just taking a short break to get their thoughts together in this crazy world.

[@secret-garden]

I think the husband will end up testifying against against wife. Currently they are sharing a lawyer but I doubt that will last long. They will be forced to turn against each other.

[@Purplesquigglystripe]

@@secret-garden good theory lol

[@brittanydiane214]

I’m definitely ready to hear what Ethan has to say about his parents. I wonder who’s case would go first. The kid or the parents.

[@mythoughts2649]

This kid didn’t stand a chance with these “parents.”

[@Nan-59]

He really didn't and that's extremely sad. The kid was looking for help and got NONE.

[@ZebraFacts]

Do you have any idea the number of children that have really bad parents? How many of those children have decided to kill everyone? Evil doesn't start at a particular age or because of the parents one has. Rich, poor, White, Black, and every other color of people often have really bad or poor parenting. We all have at least a chance.

[@catchingthemoon]

The glorification of the gun, the right to kill anyone you imagine is a threat, the availability of this weapon and quite honestly, the anger and mental instability of too many people who own them, make this a perfect storm. I see many more. I can't believe the sloppy sloppy treatment of this threat, by lawmakers, that blows me away. Pro life people seem to be ok with shooting kids to death, at school ffs.

[@kingayy9267]

@Zebra Talk Did you not understand what the OP was trying to say? Sometimes it's difficult to discern the intended meaning over text.

[@kingayy9267]

@Where should we put our hope? They're not pro-life, they're anti-choice (for women). They give no damns about the babies after they're born. They only want the ability to dictate what women do with their own bodies.

[@blacklily35]

This case reminds me of my own mother. I'd started smoking at 16. When I went to my mom and said I wanted to quit (had been sneaking cigs into the house) she said without missing a beat, "Why should I? You're just like your cousins now. That and we were in a cult at the same time. I had to go to school with duck tape on my shoes to hold them together, learned to patch my own clothes, and we were starved for a long while. Family knew but did nothing. School saw,but no action. Just proves how stupid the human race has become. All this is still going on in the open and shadows, and no one is doing anything for these kids.

[@amber40494]

Im sorry you went through trauma like that. My mother provided food, clothes and piano lessons but was very narcissistic and not someone I could talk to.

[@hopeausbyn1734]

Magical thinking instead of responding to the evidence presented. The child was presenting with unhealthy thoughts on paper and the school had the original drawing. No money for mental health, yet money for going on the run within hours.

[@marikotrue3488]

It is so difficult to listen to the litany of missed opportunities and those are only the ones we have learned about in a relatively short amount of time. It makes one wonder how many signs were also missed in the previous 15 years.

[@Mama_Bear524]

It is. He literally asked for help! This kid never had parents.

[@michaelwaninger3155]

Clearly there were signs indicating they should not buy this child a gun. One doesn't go from being fine and dandy to shooting up your school in a few days. There were kids in his school that were staying home from school because of his videos on the internet. Yet the school, police and the 40+ children that were raising him did nothing.

[@thulomanchay]

Many times signs of kids needing help were missed. Not all of them turned out badly, like this. Many of us have grown up, not getting the help we need. James, and Jennifer Crumbley most likely, and possibly the teachers too. Sometimes we missed the suicidal or homicidal, and on hindsight wished ...

[@mridul7639]

Imagine how tough it is for the parents who lost their kids to hear that there were so many signs and it was preventable.

[@Lora_M_NY]

@@Mama_Bear524 THANK YOU! I agree! I really do see the tragedy. No parents like they are could have created anything BUT a tragedy. . Yes the red flags of the day before should have been a CPS call as well!!

[@ameliakater7357]

Leave it to Dr Grande to cut through all the b.s. and get straight to the heart of the matter. These adults failed.

[@Pattiepies55]

Thank you very much for your coverage of this very sad incident, Dr. Grande. As a parent my heart goes out to this child. Parents & teachers let him down and students, young kids, paid the price. So sad.

[@sparrowhawkerdesigns]

I think a lot of what goes on here, is that nobody wants to be accused of over-reacting. Also, I think a lot of people just don't believe anything bad will actually happen. I can see all the eye-rolling that must have gone on. It will be interesting to see if these parents are convicted, how many parents with guns will start keeping those weapons safely locked up.

[@ananabi9910]

What if it was a black kid?🤔

[@finewine256xx]

The eye rolling and overreacting is exactly why nothing gets done. When I was in school I never got help so I always ended up having no choice but to inflict torment on my tormentor(s) and that is why I firmly stand by kids bringing weapons to school. Look if kids are going to bully people and think it's okay and these kids get scared of dying I think it is logical to have kids being victimized by bullies to bring arms to school to properly fend off bullies. The fact is when I hurt people they backed off I was no stranger to hitting kids with a steel pipe and they backed off that's how you have to handle people. If I still had it I would've used a bull whip on the kids in school for self defense.

[@andiharp9275]

@@finewine256xx old-school 👍💯 ✌️

[@mario-qi3yw]

Those parents need to be prosecuted!!!

[@vicvega3614]

​@@ananabi9910yea i figured nobody would answer you

[@BadmintonBombshell]

The Crumbleys seem to have a pretty definitive pattern of avoiding responsibility and have serious issues taking accountability. Terrible judgement and the denial of any issues with their son all compiled and led to this tragedy. So sad :(

[@michaelvillynch9643]

Accountability isn't something that comes up in America that much.....

[@craigfinnegan8534]

The parent's avoidance of responsibility and reality was glued together by an urge to defiance - you can see it right there in their booking photos. It's also in the mother's text message to her son to "not get caught." The father's ex-girlfriend said the mother believed she was always right, no matter what. The big problem with that is she thereby gave herself permission do anything, until all the ways she was actually wrong finally caught up with her (also true with Alec Baldwin, in my view).

[@pastorpottergabes5292]

Shut up and dont talk about my family

[@jefftheindianchief8279]

@@michaelvillynch9643 The lack of accountability really is chipping away at the foundation of America's society. It's depressing to watch the degradation grow each day, especially when it seems as though the upper echelons of our society encourage such behavior, but what can even be done to mitigate this disaster?

[@musicgurl1997]

@@pastorpottergabes5292 they smell like mold

[@-MaryPoppins-]

By failing this child, they all failed to prevent the deaths. Everyone involved needs to be charged.

[@MsBabygurl4646]

I believe the school is at fault as well , due to many kids are bullied and they do nothing to help. I’ve had to go to the school here when my son was young and got bullied. The other kids followed him to the bathroom 🚽 and started a fight with him and all he did was defeat himself and what does he get , suspended for trying to protect himself. The teacher was thankful enough to at least let him have his school work. It was caught on cam them following him into the restroom. I’m glad that was at least on cam. Anyways I believe that other child needed help , just like this child who now has to spend the rest of his life behind bars, The parents should of got there son help, not let him get ahold of a gun. I had my sons in counseling. That’s all they needed to do or whatever else it took. It’s so sad that so many lost their lives because of it. I pray God comforts their family.

[@Oceanrocks121]

@@MsBabygurl4646 There is no evidence he was being bullied, even his own brother said there was no incidents of bullying and he attended the same high school. None of his victims were specifically targeted. He shot indiscriminately.

[@MsBabygurl4646]

@@Oceanrocks121 parents know how their kids act at home so if he wasn’t bullied at school then still his parents should of got him help. I’m hated by my oldest son for having him in counseling for a few years but he’ll get over it. I seen he was angry 😡 so I got him help. Now he’s 18 years old. So whatever he does now is on his own account. All I can do is pray for him. I just don’t understand why that boys parents let him get ahold of a gun, knowing what he was going to do . His mom texting him don’t do it. I wouldn’t allow a gun in my house unless it was locked up ⬆️ in a gun cabinet, and that means one with no glass on it.

[@michelesmith2620]

@@MsBabygurl4646 Should have. I have seen that.

[@rachelk7555]

What deaths?

[@2300enduserperson1]

Parents should be held accountable for their action or inaction with their kids.

[@kendefer9864]

I'm sorry to say my heart goes out to a 15 year old boy that was brought up by Dysfunctional Family and now he has nobody, there's nobody to help him and guide him he's going to end up being a lost soul for the rest of his life...... Tragedy strikes in many ways. May God Bless all the families from Oxford and the surrounding community..

[@winterbalm]

i find it very suspicious that his mother texted him ‘don’t do it’ like she knew that he had it on his mind but thought she talked him out of it or he wouldn’t go through with it

[@merrywalsh2809]

The parents might have thought he was going to kill himself.

[@joshuareddy4226]

I think the parents were aware of his disturbing thoughts and when they saw the gun missing they were able to deduce what was going on which triggered the text message. The parents knew their child was capable of this act of violence and ignored warning signs. I think they absolutely deserve to be charged.

[@okhuibutala1640]

Mother should report to the police station

[@amber40494]

Yes. Especially since she'd seen the violent drawings earlier!!

[@Fern635]

I'm Canadian. When I got my firearms acquisition license, I had to take a firearms safety course where I learned that the majority of firearms-related deaths are suicides. That alone should be enough to convince anyone that teenagers don't need access to firearms, nevermind the possibility of tragedies like this.

[@michaelwaninger3155]

Yes, but this kid was so level headed. Didn't think they still allowed guns in Canada a place where you can get arrested for using the wrong pronouns.

[@westcoastweird455]

@@michaelwaninger3155 barely legal at this point. Our government had been coming for legal gun owners for a decade now

[@marycampbell8855]

@@michaelwaninger3155 Ha ha. Ridiculous comment!

[@marycampbell8855]

@frank harte Doubt if that's true. If it is, then there's a lot more to the story.

[@I_Ace]

Dude u act like his parents cared. They obviously didnt and avoided responsibility of themselves. Why im the world would they care about responsibility for a son they didnt care enough about?

[@kennedyreid2504]

I have a son who can drive a car well and was allowed a "learners" license by the government, but after taking him on the road a few times, I have refused to have him drive and help him get on the road. Why? Because of his poor judgement! How would I feel if he injured other people? These parents were negligent and should be held accountable. Who buys an underage child a gun after you know he is "weird"? They failed to be responsible to the community! 5 - 10 years is good!

[@valeriemanuel1346]

It's difficult to determine who's parenting whom. The parent's negligence has led to this tragedy.

[@hellohsaytin6813]

im glad that for once, terrible parents are being held accountable for the actions of their child. he obviously made his own choices, but their terrible parenting exacerbated his issues.

[@Bojan_V]

Agreed!

[@stevetrivago]

At the end of the day the schools inability to protect the students was just as bad if not worse than the parents poor decision in purchasing him a gun

[@celiajane4250]

@Brîndusa D the teachers r not at fault. they have no power. actually, the one teacher who saw the drawing DID do what she could, but was ignored. it's the people who called the shots who r to blame.

[@jenlovesjesus]

Exactly!

[@cashdingo6386]

Just remember you said that when they say they need to come into the home to make sure things are working to their expectations. Always be Careful when the government wants to charge others for the actions of the individual.

[@bethewalt7385]

Dr. Grande, I shared your site with my daughter, she is a working psychologist and has used and referenced you as source material in talks she's given, you are appreciated and revered in this family, much appreciated

[@laurawheeler6684]

This is a truly sad, sad story. This child, Ethan, was clearly asking for help and if he didn’t get help he was telling “them” what he was going to do. Ultimately and with great sadness, others paid a huge price with their lives, and many others suffering the trauma. There is so much wrong here. My condolences to all the families and staff.

[@miavos3610]

He just got sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Now watching to see what will happen to the parents. Will you give an update?

[@hellodahlink]

Mother was convicted on all 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter 2 days ago. Sentencing is April 9th. Father's case goes to trial next month.

[@Nok112]

This seems like it could have been prevented and wow at his mom. Just wow. Most importantly parents lost their babies right before Christmas. Tragic. I pray those parents face justice.

[@EricK-tb2dn]

I can't see 12 people saying they're not guilty. At worse I see a hung jury and then a retrial.

[@SABOARITI]

@@EricK-tb2dn I anticipate a lower charge. It maybe the elements of Involuntary Manslaughter don't apply and something else might.

[@EricK-tb2dn]

@@SABOARITI the requirement for negligent homicide if "would a reasonable person realise their actions contribute to grave injury of death" A reasonable person would not give their mentally ill son a gun for xmas, she also knew the potential when she text "don't do if"

[@MsFunnybags]

@@EricK-tb2dn Prosecutors likely won't retry as retrials are less likely to result in conviction than the previous trial.

[@QuasiELVIS]

Maybe you should pray for gun control.

[@petertreid]

Terribly upsetting. The only redeeming aspect of this tragedy was seeing the parents having to face the music.

[@bluegreenglue6565]

T.v. interviews, and the celebrity afforded by a prurient public press, will be their lot for a while. Their trials will be a circus and an embarrassment to any dignity the "justice system" still claims.

[@doomguy510]

I agree we should do this with all parents of criminals. Maybe BLM will get upset about it but who cares?

[@carolnahigian9518]

The Parents bought a Weapon------- why did they NOT invest in Therapy????.???

[@eemoogee160]

@@doomguy510 get a life troll

[@Nan-59]

@Genesis 1 Exactly! Thanks

[@jeanvanderhulst5862]

The more I learn about the parents, the more sympathy I have for Ethan.

[@robertdonohue]

I wonder how long before the majority of the public realizes that general long-term isolation can screw with a person's head.

[@thomascarlton82]

Parents getting punished for their bad parenting impacting other lives. Im def down for that, pay attention or do some time for ruining your childs life and the victims lives

[@QuinnieMae]

"Parents getting punished for their bad parenting impacting other lives". I just want to let that sit there on its own. You are quite right Thomas. 💯

[@JoyceJohansen]

ABSOULUTLY !

[@michaelwaninger3155]

The do that in Florida , have been for decades.

[@aceiam4370]

ABSOULUTLY !

[@user-mv9tt4st9k]

This situation has changed my view of that. I have seen good parents raise really terrible kids. It is not always the parents who are responsible for their kids' bad life choices. But THESE parents... oh my goodness, they are really close to beyond the pale.

[@Katie-zy1fh]

That 48 hour warning was likely the last spur he needed to go through with the shooting. The school basically told him it was now or never.

[@phoebex7170]

WoW. Now, that's a thought.

[@GoodnightJLH]

Exactly.

[@matth5734]

Interesting point. And the gun was right there in his backpack.

[@iandaniel2153]

... absolutely it gave him a time frame to build on his psychopathy.

[@hayleydavis1449]

This!

[@lilybee809]

When I first saw this in the news and they went from “meeting with counselor” to “sent back to class,” I was like, am I missing something here? Where is the part when they searched him? I cannot believe the level of negligence from the school given the history of school shootings in this country. Regular people with a 1-hour work training on mental health and some common sense would have acted better. No excuse whatsoever for those “counselors”… A tragedy all the more tragic because it could have been prevented.

[@lalasarchive1]

Exactly. It alarms me that they didn't check him at all.

[@EddyG0rdo]

People never think that something like this is going to happen to them. Unfortunately, every single situation like this needs to be treated like the person is going to commit a horrible crime. No exceptions.

[@elizabethbennet4791]

Literally to THIS day I don't think I've ever heard of two parents that were so weirdly obstinate and needed to pay for their kid's actions. I'm FASCINATED by this case because they remind me of my psycho family!!!!

[@ticrific]

I can’t believe that they sent him back to class. The school needs to be help accountable as well. There were multiple warnings and so many mistakes which could have prevented this from happening Edit: I’m not blaming the school entirely. I’m saying they do play a role because of how they carelessly let him go back to class without at least checking his belongings

[@thatswhatisaid8908]

What should they have done? The parents wouldn't take him home, and didn't want him to get counselling. What could they have done?

[@awnutz]

Yes. Our public schools are a joke.

[@awnutz]

@@thatswhatisaid8908 they needed to figure it out. Locked the little punk in a closet. Not send him back to class and sign a death warrant for other students!!!

[@ticrific]

@@thatswhatisaid8908 It seems obvious that they should have at least made sure he didn’t have a weapon if they were gonna just let him go back to class. If they were going to do the intended plan, and the parents refused to take him home and get help ASAP, they should have just called cps right then and there rather than giving them 48 hours. The issue was urgent and should have been treated as such. They absolutely had the authority to force the parents to take him home regardless of how stubborn the parents were. This is just some of what should have/could have been done that day. I can go on and on about mistakes made prior and other suggestions rather than what happened (suspension for example is another thing they should have considered)

[@Mama_Bear524]

@@thatswhatisaid8908 called CPS, kept him monitored until authorities showed up. I had CPS called on me because I had my mentally Ill daughter home (which the school and mental health team knew) because she was in a really bad state, also having seizures. If I can be called on they could’ve been. Full damn stop.

[@littlepumpkin42]

When I was a teenager in high school I brought a razer blade to school. I struggled with self harm and when the gym coach found it I was sent the office my mom called and sent to the hospital for a psych evaluation ASAP spent four days in a mental hospital. They ignored a lot of the signs....

[@leanysealvarado7499]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[@hopeful6157]

God bless you & heal you, I am sorry to hear that you have had struggles such as this, always ask for help & keep HOPE alive 💖🙏 Take care

[@jessicajamesspeaks]

Sadly I've walked in your shoes twice 😥 I hope you are doing better today. With outpatient therapy, you will do well and have a bright future.

[@jonesba2004]

I hope you’re in a better state now. With support. Peace and love to you.

[@slapahoe69]

Right someone at my school said they were gonna shoot up the school and his ass was expelled right then and there no questions asked

[@selfmaderish4690]

The fact the mom texted “don’t do it” A lawyer can work with that. It’s hard to believe that the parents knew what he would do.

[@carlcarlson1369]

The good doctor should have over a million views. And over a million subscribers. I love the way he speaks so calm. Hello from Bay Ridge Brooklyn

[@ann9686]

I agree, great breakdown!

[@jerzygirl]

I can’t imagine what Ethan was thinking, knowing he surrendered without incident yet his own parents decided to flee. It’s a cold hard day when you realize that your parents aren’t the hero’s you thought they were.

[@hellovicki6779]

I am sure he reached that conclusion a lot earlier.

[@kristentrep5038]

@@hellovicki6779 I’d say! It looks like he was looking for help and attention from his parents, instead they laughed off his behaviors. I can’t believe they didn’t fear him hurting himself?? (Which would’ve been preferable to him killing and injuring so many others.. but I think the kid needed help, and his parents to care)

[@hsmathis]

I thought the “don’t do it text” was telling Ethan not to commit suicide. I say this because the news reported the shooting so it was much too late to tell him not to do it. His parents failed in every possible way as did school staff. The teacher did his/her part by reporting his behavior.

[@megankagarise8485]

That’s a great point. I thought it was odd that Ethan immediately dropped his gun and surrendered, as school shooters usually commit suicide or get killed by cops for not dropping their weapon.

[@megankagarise8485]

Usually their own death is the ultimate goal.

[@lsrose]

Interesting point. Never considered that but it makes sense.

[@marilyns2353]

I had the same thought, re mother's text. His wording on the drawing, indicates he might be considering suicide. That kid was asking for help & nobody took him seriously!

[@mikiohirata9627]

No the councilors weren't real pros at what they were getting paid to do and as such they need to pay for their dire mistakes. I fault them more than anybody else in this situation.

[@bluelarry1674]

I appreciate you emphasizing the red flags (and how they were ignored or dismissed). Not to indulge in hyperbole, but I believe this video can save lives. Thank you for this Dr. Todd.

[@vivala3299]

Not placing any blame, but it seems like everyone who had the opportunity to prevent this tragedy dropped the ball!

[@lisamac8503]

But blame should and needs to be placed Why are you fearful of doing so?

[@QuinnieMae]

"Ethan wanted to be an archaeologist" - this broke my heart tonight. I know what he has done, it was abhorrent and I've cried for the children and their families. But the piece of Ethan that wanted to dig up dinosaur bones and Viking treasure perhaps, and that murdered his peers is the same child that said, "help me" and that makes me weep. Just _tragic_ in every way. Thank you as always for the thoughtful breakdown, Dr. Grande. 💔

[@Mama_Bear524]

Exactly. He has no parents and never did. He literally asked for help. This case couldn’t be more clear that he has issues and needed help and didn’t get it. Sick.

[@joycebrannen1943]

Archaeology leads to so much evidence of GOD!

[@VintageVera]

This certainly couldn't have been the first time Ethan showed signs of dysfunction. What kind of whacked out parents buy a gun for a troubled kid?

[@williethomas5116]

That is the scary part. They bought him a gun seemingly knowing he was disturbed.

[@DiddyBohlen]

There’s a theory that they wanted him to kill himself with it so that they wouldn’t have to bother with him anymore.

[@barbarac9805]

The parents are MAGA gun nutters. Enough said.

[@williethomas5116]

@@MrBluesMessiah That is the thing. Proving the right to indict is one thing proving beyond a reasonable doubt the parents are guilty is another. There certainly were flashing red signs these parents ignored but so did others. They are terrible parents. But I am interested in how this plays out. In Michigan there is a precedence for conviction in this type of case.

[@williethomas5116]

@@MrBluesMessiah that is the thing they have to prove it. I highly doubt they can. I get what you are saying but their job as parents is to guide and not befriend. Their job is to trust but verify. I know no one hopes their child is capable of such of a thing. But some know and yes hindsight is 20 20 but they never did the verifying part. But I think the thing is it is a lot worse for the parents if things are as we suspect. I think they are lying about securing the gun. He clearly had complete possession of it. I have no doubt they were negligent, but the question is were they grossly negligent. A very hard case to make. The biggest problem is them shooting themselves in the foot. But in the end parents hold the right of their children but with those rights come responsibilities as well. Morally and legally are 2 different standards. But you raised good points.

[@johniii8147]

"you have to learn to not get caught" says it all about this household.

[@snogglemonkey]

What kind of parents encourage their unstable kid by allowing him to own a gun, then flee when the kid murders 4 children?

[@anjeanettecoleman6027]

@cameraflyer how? They raised him🙄

[@carolnahigian9518]

the kind who Cannot even wear mask to cover their Nose: the dense ignorance of Reckless Folk, so sad.

[@Vmvmvmvmvn]

I'm mind-blown by the fact that a 15 year old kid is allowed to have a gun in America.

[@Mama_Bear524]

As a Canadian, same

[@finnfan33]

They're not. It was a straw purchase, and thus illegal.

[@breannthorne-stanzell5990]

That’s the thing. By US laws already in place, he shouldn’t have. His parents allowed him to have one.

[@michaelarojas]

What parents buy their underage son a gun?

[@leileijoker8465]

@@finnfan33 not really a straw purchase. There are plenty of parents purchase firearms for their kids to hunt or practice shooting sports. As long as the kids were under parents' supervision when using the firearm. Nothing illegal about that. If the pistol were indeed stolen from a locked container, I don't see the charges against the parents would stick.

[@gleefulme9617]

Irresponsible parents! They bought that kid a handgun for Christmas. What on earth did he need or want a handgun? Mom sends a text saying don't get caught? Then they ran away, plotting an escape to Canada. They deserve to be charged! They have no respect for other people or the law. Writing bad checks & DUIs tells us plenty about them.

[@Bojan_V]

Am i being naive, or is the real meaning of Christmas love and forgiveness? When did the guns "entered" in the Christmas?

[@markharrison6498]

I cant believe that there's no law that requires you to properly secure a firearm. Absolute madness

[@Twztedcheerio1]

I think it’s important to remember that we, here in the US, don’t necessarily pay our teachers very well. They are already stretched thin in most cases as it is. It may be difficult for teachers to stay on top of all the expectations we have for them that they are not compensated for. I definitely think the parents should hold some responsibility here! Don’t have kids if you can’t or won’t give them the love and support they need!

[@christineblaszczyk1602]

Teachers did what they were supposed to do and reported his behavior. Councilor and whatever other authority was involved should at the very least be fired for their actions. I think they are both criminally liable for the deaths of those children and not the teachers.

[@Twztedcheerio1]

@@christineblaszczyk1602 agreed the teachers are not to be blamed here

[@bonnieabrs1003]

I agree teachers are under immense stress. The worse part is parents have abdicated their parietal job to teachers. It’s not a teachers job to raise your children, it’s a parents job. Period. These two parents(I use the term loosely) had arrest records & poor parenting skills. The boy lost the war before it ever started. Prayers to all effected by this terrible, preventable crime.

[@Preservestlandry]

The teacher is the only one who felt the urgency. It wasn't the teacher who sent him back to class.

[@kweenz109]

As a Canadian, I can say teachers in the USA are so underpaid and undervalued. It's actually sickening what teachers down there have to deal with. 😢

[@stacyrosa7481]

So many fails, on so many levels. Two teachers did exactly what they were taught, and reported it to admins immediately. Clearly, parents failed to understand the mind of a troubled teenage boy, and presented him with a weapon that gave a troubled boy the power of life and death. School officials regularly send students home for minor issues, like violating dress code. Yet they let this boy return to class, and NO ONE searched his back pack? Granted, school officials were not told that Ethan had access to a very dangerous weapon. Parents ruined their son's life, and then tried to completely abandon him, to save themselves. 4 beautiful kids lives taken, many others wounded and forever traumatized. We are heartbroken here in Michigan!

[@joanncunningham7276]

HE pulled the trigger. Life is not a video game. He needs to be held accountable just like his parents do.

[@GOLDVIOLINbowofdeath]

How do you know what the teachers were “taught” to do? There may very well be a Michigan law that requires teachers to report this to the police

[@tinasmith5752]

THIS BOY WAS CONCEIVED AND HATCHED BY DEMONS! THE OUT COME WAS LOCKED IN HIS DNA!

[@alyria76]

Right! My son got suspended for forgetting to take his freaking hat off 3 times in a row. This makes me want to scream!

[@wjfaust]

@@MrBluesMessiah 💯say that again for the people in the back!

[@jnagarya519]

The gun was bought FOR the son. The father's "discovery" that the gun was "missing" is cover-story.

[@Mama_Bear524]

💯

[@michaelwaninger3155]

Fact that they instantly knew it was him tells me they knew something was seriously wrong.

[@bellagirlgirl8827]

@@michaelwaninger3155 YES!

[@Lalaphive]

That's what I've been saying, he was trying to cover his ass with that missing weapon report.

[@user-mv9tt4st9k]

If there are humans in the home, the firearms get locked up. I do not care if it is one human or several--the firearms are locked up. The parents refused to be bothered by having to talk out whatever was going on with their son, and then they tried to bail out on him. I suspect dad and mom were "friends" who may have allowed their son custody of "his gun." (seriously, how is it Ethan's gun when his dad had to buy it for him?) After hearing Dr, Grande's analysis, those parents knew... they knew everything. 😒

[@JaimeLeighArt]

Your analysis here is spot on. These are all the points I wondered about when I initially heard the news story. The parents absolutely hold responsibility here, but it seems like the school officials and staff really failed in their jobs to both protect other students and get help for Ethan who seems like he was desperately seeking it. Lots of bad decisions made here.

[@kikisylvester7195]

Dr Grande thank you for your review of the Crumbly family. It helps to hear all the bits and pieces put together in chronological order.

[@annabanana377]

I think the parents should be charged with both criminal neglect of a child as well as involuntary manslaughter. From what I understand the gun was kept in an unlocked drawer in a bedroom. The school officials/counselors should be held accountable as well for their negligence. This was totally preventable, what a shame.

[@clairepaterson2374]

Yes!! Adults can’t control these children against their will and then say if you do something bad it’s on you.

[@aquavenus8026]

I’m concerned with Counselors making mental diagnosis. The requires a PHD but a Counselor to refer and document to Dr.

[@lbh4113]

Did the counselor claim to make a dx?

[@janetpartyka5968]

As some other commenter said, It doesn't rise to the level of the parents where they supplied the murder weapon; they knew the kid had it (if not in his possession, they knew he had access to it.) Whereas the school was reacting to pictures without the foreknowledge that the kid was actually capable of acting on those drawings. The administrator, counselor and teachers did EXACTLY what they were suppose to do. Hopefully, with a little luck, there will be a Zero Tolerance law in place, so the school can automatically kick A kid out. NO NEGOTIATING WITH THE PARENTS. CALL THE POLICE IF THE KID OR PARENTS CAN'T FOLLOW THE RULES.

[@michellsmith4693]

The school officials contacted the parents. The parents ignored the warnings. Stop trying to blame the negligence of the parents on educators. Educators are responsible for education. Parents are responsible for the behavior and actions of their progeny.

[@RM_VFX]

There are too many messed up parents trying to be friends with their kids instead of being good parents. They're raising messed up kids with no boundaries, respect, work ethic etc.

[@Bojan_V]

Bad parents produce bad children. And none of them, when they grove up, don't want to change themself to the better.

[@kelcritcarroll]

It almost seems like the parents wanted to get rid of their son….its hard to believe they didnt have an idea he was messed up

[@lbh4113]

Why’d school send him back to class just b/c parents didn’t take him home? When my child gets suspended, & I can’t take her home at that time yet - the school says, “ok, we are going to have her wait here in the office until she is picked up or until school ends”. They don’t even send them back to class to wait till parent arrives. That removal is that removal!

[@globes179]

At this point it's not remotely shocking when a kid starts shooting up his school. Which means it IS very shocking that people who see a troubled kid don't react with any sense of urgency. The parents are definitely culpable here, but how are we still not reacting with a sense of urgency when a kid starts showing these kinds of red flags.

[@breannthorne-stanzell5990]

Because the school dropped the ball. As a teacher, I take every threat seriously.

[@joywebster2678]

Also the services and residential programs for behavioral health have shrunk steadily.

[@wowihaveachannel4862]

@@breannthorne-stanzell5990 as a fellow human being I take every threat seriously. I'm not clear why the school didn't have a mental health person or at a minimum get the kid to a hospital for a 5150. I'm not sure what charging the parents accomplishes. Their son will spend his life in prison. And they will only be able to visit him. I'm sure people want the parents to suffer, but that type of justice is perverted to me. It creates more hate, more division more law suits. To what end? I saw my friend die not once but twice , and I still wonder what else I could have done. It's with a heavy heart I say RIP Dallas my best friend.

[@ReaperCH90]

South Park did a great episode about it.

[@DeidresStuff]

It took me two years to get my kid into therapy, but by God I did it. And he just has anxiety and ADHD. I can't imagine my kid being this fucked up and silently screaming for help, having someone hand me the evidence, and then doing nothing. I would have gone to every emergency room in the state until someone did something.

[@ticrific]

“You have to learn not to get caught” seems the parents need to do some learning about that too Edit: this is SARCASM I’m making fun of the parents, not encouraging them :)

[@clivejohnson6468]

He hid the gun - psychopath?

[@jnagarya519]

@@clivejohnson6468 The gun was bought FOR the son -- and illegal "straw purchase" -- as a Christmas present. And the mother made that clear when she posted online about it being HIS present. So the father was trying to cover his own ass by claiming the son stole it. In fact, as it was bought FOR the son, the son had it all along.

[@user-mv9tt4st9k]

@Clive Johnson: How was that teenager able to "hide the gun"? Oh my goodness... the firearms get locked in a safe. If one's child is too unstable to be expected to allow their pet firearm to be locked up, then maybe that child should not be allowed around firearms, period. Parenting really is not rocket science; for some people it appears that common sense is. 🙄

[@frankpaya690]

@@clivejohnson6468 the school officials after all of that didn't search his backpack before sending him back to class which they didn't want to do in the first place, laziness? incompetence? Gross- negligence?

[@joanneblack7697]

@@frankpaya690 Incompetence? And maybe denial? I'd check backpack, locker, desk ... everywhere! And have school resource officer watching him!

[@lorisutherland4752]

While it’s easy to play keyboard savior, I do see the signs that were screaming out. I believe the parents should be held responsible for their actions/lack there of. This child will likely never be out of prison, and the adults in his life failed him.

[@finewine256xx]

I support any child defending themselves by any means. Even at the cost of people's life.

[@mario-qi3yw]

Good day Dr Grande😊why would they purchase a gun for a high school child?!? His parents need to be prosecuted .

[@dhibba52]

My experience of school administrators is that they are totally ineffective in dealing with bullying. They are always ready to dismiss the perpetrators of bullying behavior.

[@mrjamila88]

That’s generalizing all. Not all schools do that. Some do a good job of stoping bullying and solving issues. It has happened at my kid school but it’s still few compared to many other schools who need a lot of work and support to deal with these issues.

[@DimaRakesah]

@@mrjamila88 Well the post say "my experience" so not entirely generalized, it's a comment on the OPs experience.

[@oceanrocks]

They fell for a manipulating sadistic killer who fooled his counselors into thinking he had good intentions. People are making Ethan out to be a dumb kid, but he knew what to say to counselors every time he was caught doing something he wasn’t supposed to be doing in school. When he was caught researching ammunition on his phone, he explained to the school that he and his mother recently went to the shooting range and that shooting sports are a family hobby. When he was caught with the violent drawing, he had already scratched out the most offensive parts depicting the weapon, blood, and words. He then tried to disguise the drawing as part of a video game that he was designing and informed counselors he planned to pursue video game design as a career. While waiting for his parents to arrive, he verbalized his concern about missing homework assignments and requested his science homework (this is to portray himself as a productive student with good intentions who wanted to get back to class). When asked questions if he was going to harm himself or others, his answers during the interview didn’t indicate that he was going to. If he truly wanted to seek help and murder was the last resort in his mind (which it wasn’t, he was planning out his murder spree weeks in advance), he would’ve asked for it or made it obvious that he needed help instead of covering his tracks. This kid knew exactly what he was doing and essentially pleaded to go back to class so he could accomplish his demented and diabolical plan less than 2 hours later. He has the behavior of a person who is aware that he has been caught, aware that he may be in trouble, and is trying to take steps to minimize the ramifications. That is evidence of organized, cause-and-effect thinking, not disorganized psychotic cognitions. That shows awareness and a desire to avoid repercussions.

[@DimaRakesah]

@@oceanrocks He also was coached by his mother not to ge caught. The kid isn't innocent, but he's also still a kid and his parents are clearly fucked up. It is possible for a person to be crying out for help and denying help at the same time. Mental health is complicated. It's sad that his was raised so poorly that this happened. It's not like the kid was born evil.

[@oceanrocks]

@@DimaRakesah It’s said that he got into fights in middle school and he’d get in trouble for not listening to teachers and his parents were always siding with him. It seems like his parents treated him more like a friend rather than a parent and never imposed rules in his life. Certainly there’s parental influence, but still, he made a choice to murder, which is not socially acceptable by any means. Most children grow up in bad homes and they do not resort to mass killings. I don’t believe he wanted to be stopped from killing, because he had this planned out weeks in advance and asked his parents to buy him a gun 4 days prior to the shooting when he had bad intentions.

[@chandracox6814]

I hope the parents get convicted in this case. There were too many warning signs and they laughed off their son getting caught searching for ammunition and then didn't care about the drawing either. Their blatant disregard is appalling but I'm not sure there's enough to convict in a court of law. Gotta love that justice system!

[@XX-121]

so we should make it illegal for people under 18 to even look at gun and gun related stuff? give me a break

[@carolnahigian9518]

The parents are beyond the Beyond- no Clue of Their son troubles??????

[@hauntedshadowslegacy2826]

@@XX-121 No, we should make it illegal for parents to slough off major goddamn warning signs that their kid may be severely mentally ill and on the verge of extreme actions. By all means, there are plenty of kids with the mental fortitude to properly handle firearms, but these two morons ignored their kid's blatantly obvious cries for help. He was nothing but a burden to them, so they didn't want to deal with any of his mental healthcare needs. They neglected their son's mental health to the point he caused four deaths. THAT is what should be illegal. So stuff it with the 'make it about guns' rhetoric.

[@lazerduckzilla]

@@hauntedshadowslegacy2826 👏

[@zxcpiggy]

No parents gonna guess their kids gonna do something like this they didnt put 2 and 2 together til they realized the gun was gone and they contacted police to warn them

[@niecy4luv27]

Kudos to the teacher who kept catching this kid and reporting it to the proper authorities

[@ID-ig6fq]

To non-Americans the casual reference to “school officers” is mind boggling! What on earth is wrong with the US, that it’s schools need officers on site ???? It’s a school !!! What a bizarre world , but I guess it seems normal to those whose everyday life it is …

[@Pants69]

Because of their insane gun culture combined with a society where violence has been normalised I would think.

[@brentwalker3300]

How in the hell can parents purchase a semi-auto pistol for a kid when they know he has psychological problems? The drawings at school can hardly be the first time Ethan exhibited warning signs. The parents are totally negligent on so many levels.

[@Adara007]

From the information available about Ethan's parents they minimised then ignored any signs of psychological disturbance. They seem overly indulgent and blithely unconcerned about their son's drawings. Even if he hadn't drawn the type of drawings he did buying guns like the semi-automatic pistol they bought their son is a most inappropriate gift for any minor to receive.

[@queenfrog1224]

@@Adara007 or could be they saw nothing wrong with his behavior or thoughts because they have sociopathic tendencies themselves.

[@OpossumArtemisia]

@@queenfrog1224 I think this is definitely the case.

[@AntaresSelket]

You're right that everyone failed him. He showed plenty of signs that he was troubled. When adults confront a child or teen about their behavior and it looks like they might get in trouble, they tend to down play their behavior. So, a scream for help, comes off as a bad day or teen angst. The laws need to be changed about school discipline, and adolescent therapy.

[@shema3579]

Have to learn from other countries schools system why it’s not happening overseas too much like in USA.

[@iandaniel2153]

@@shema3579 ... that's easily answered as other countries have strict control of gun ownership, storage and licensing.

[@AntaresSelket]

@@shema3579 True.

[@medic2pa11]

Sadly, nothing is going to change. It’s like you just have to pray you are never in the wrong place at the wrong time

[@tictactoedias1908]

WHY the Hell would you buy a 15 year old a GUN !!!!

[@conniejohnson5361]

Exactly! My son was getting his license at 15 not a gun

[@bachthe1st557]

The fact that they knew about The guns, they been warned about the son’s behavior and they don’t even try to do anything ,that manslaughter charge is more then deserved

[@okhuibutala1640]

All of us Should educate ourselves about mentally ill

[@rei18nov]

They bought the gun for his protection since he was heavily and violently bullied at school which this KZbinr fails to mention, since it won't for the narrative. He likes to blame video games and Trump

[@bachthe1st557]

@@rei18nov That’s the problem with the school system due they really like to turn a blind eye

[@CorryGal]

Don't blame Ethan's parents. They didn't pull the trigger. Ethan did. He is the only killer.

[@CorryGal]

@@bachthe1st557 How do you knw this? Are you a teacher?

[@missyskye_sea_land9424]

Those innocent children…😭 When I heard the news, I really couldn’t understand why he was sent back to the classroom when his parents refused to retrieve him and why they didn’t search his bag. My daughter’s school would’ve def’ly kept a student like him with a guidance counselor until the end of the school day/his parents came and got him, and the bag would’ve been searched, too.

[@okhuibutala1640]

really sorry about people who got killed by killer 😢

[@kylewilliams1439]

Certainly a cry for help that both parents and school staff/counselors should have heard. Prayers for the families 🙏🏻

[@lisadavis9535]

There were mental health issues with all three of them. If you look at the pictures of the house from the trial, the amount of disorganization and messiness was incredible and looked to be longstanding. It is a sign of depression. This whole case is so sad. The kid was complaining about hallucinating, he was left alone a lot. Despite this, they purchased a gun for him (which he paid for with his own money and which he claimed, when he was pleading guilty, that his father did not keep locked up. Would anyone expect that their quiet child, having hallucinations, that was fascinated with guns, one of which was recently purchased for him, would shoot up a school? No, but only if you haven't been reading the news for the past 25 years. The profile of school shooters is chillingly similar. It was neglect. I raised an autistic child who had meltdowns and rages. I took him to the doctor, put him on medication, stayed home after work to be with him and his sister, I talked with him all the time to see where he was at emotionally. I would never have purchased a gun, not even to have protection in the house because it was not safe. By his own choice and with my council, he decided not to play realistic violent video games because they severely darkened his mood. I don't think my child would ever have shot up a school, but then again, I took no chances.

[@florperez163]

Honestly educators have many obstacles and restrictions that the public is not aware of. Parents rights are highly protected. Society needs to start holding parents more accountable and I think these parents being charged is a step in the right direction. Schools role is to educate students not to raise them.

[@klg4zy]

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@ALinn-vr3nl]

Schools have a responsibility to keep students and staff safe. We have witnessed for decades that parents cannot be relied on to do the right thing, such as to not own guns. So schools, cops, and social workers and psych facilities need to provide extra layers of protection for all.

[@florperez163]

@@ALinn-vr3nl within reason. As I stated there are many things school staff cannot do. You say parents cannot be relied on, that is the problem. Parents should be responsible, and our societal expectation should be as such. I am not an expert on all school shootings, but I bet the vast majority the shooters get weapons from home. I am not here to argue any which way about gun rights. Education is extremely underfunded. Facility psychs? School psychologist role is very different. School police a handful for hundreds of kids. We have an educator shortage and this is just one of the reasons, probably the worst of all. Teachers and staff are traumatized on a daily basis by out of control behavior. I will say it again school staff hands are tied. I will say it again it is not educations job to fill every need in our society.

[@marciasimpson8852]

I agree. Parents need to be held accountable. Schools are afraid of parents.

[@knightofkorbin888]

"School's role is to educate students; not to raise them." I could not find a better sentence to describe the source of every problem in school. They're the SAME thing. Education is no different than raising a child. That's why for most of the history of civilization, parents, family, and the community of a child functioned as the teachers and mentors of the child. The problem is you smooth brains think children can spend years of their development phase surrounded by unloving, neglectful, irresponsible strangers, and still turn out right. Any adult who spends as much time around a child as these teachers and staff at these schools are responsible for how they turn out. Unless parents are the only adults children spend significant time around; then they are not the sole bearers of the weight of responsibility for how the kids are raised. That's why students are failing in these schools and after they leave these schools. They were forced to waste years of their life around people who didn't think twice about not caring about who these kids could become by their action or inaction.

[@Mianlos]

When the parents said Ethan needs to go back to class, that was the catalyst for the shootings that followed. Can you imagine the sorrow and lonliness the boy felt when his parents left him there? The parents are very culpable in the deaths.

[@charmingjinx9379]

Just so you give that a little more thought, the fact that four other kids died just because Ethan was feeling sorrowful and lonely, is a testament to WHY guns should be removed from America and the 2nd Amendment abolished. All kinds of kids all over the world are sorrowful and lonely, but they don't have easy access to kill. I don't know if the rest of the world could possibly be more disgusted with America, but I'm sure a full third of American's are going to keep trying to press it.

[@azlynn.nevaeh]

@@charmingjinx9379 SERIOUSLY and fuck the ppl that say we need guns to protect ourselves bullshit it takes a lot longer from you to die from a knife then a bullet in most cases this is absolutely disgusting and why we DO NEED guns removed it should be a law and the military should be the only ones with guns

[@lenagalaxies]

@@sons_of_god1306 Oh shut up. Every other country has strict gun laws, and guess what? Close to 0 mass shootings, much less SCHOOL shootings. The US is the ONLY country where every single year innocent children have to lose their lives because of "the right to bear arms". Does gun violence exist all over the world? Yes. No one denies that fact, but the US is the ONLY country where shit like mass shootings occur without fail. Why do you think that is? Mental health? Or the fact that mentally ill people have such EASY access to guns? No one is suggesting the complete banning of guns, just stricter gun laws like pretty much almost EVERY OTHER COUNTRY in the world. Acts of terrorism occur all over, but once again I ask, how many other countries have mass shootings yearly? ESPECIALLY, school shootings? Quickly. List them for me. Oh I know! 0. ZERO. Don't bring religion into this lmao, PLEASE. This has 0 things to do with religion. And I'm not even an athiest, FAR from it in fact. Many other countries have absolutely abysmal mental health facilities, but guess what? They still have 0 school shootings because of strict gun laws.

[@felixjohnston3402]

@@lenagalaxies very few people die in mass shootings, which make up a minuscule proportion of gun homicides. You appear under the delusion that the opposite is true

[@sons_of_god1306]

@@lenagalaxies don’t like my post? Move along. I stand behind what I stated.

[@All_Loves_Lost]

Thank you for putting together all this information, I was trying to find it and was not able to find such a complete account of everything.

[@edwinacross3452]

Dr. Grande, there are so many people doing this kind of show that are exploitive. You are always careful and professional. Thank you.