Tokarev 7.62X25 load workup using CFE Pistol powder and Hornady 90gr XTP...with results!

[@smittie1911]

I just wanted to say Thank You. Last night I spent about an hour and a half trying to find load data for the T-33 I was given as a gift to no avail. This morning I wake up and youtube recommended this to me. Normally I do not listen to people about load data. All of my info comes from printed books. But you sir, I 100% respect the fact that you really did your research and showed the results. It isn't often people do this. I am deffinetly subscribing.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks for the nice comment! FYI Hornady and Lyman both have some data published for the Tokarev. If there is anything i can help with, feel free to ask. I have another video linked with some more information about the cartridge if your interested. Just left over stuff I cut to limit the size of the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqauaHmQl6l6hac

[@smittie1911]

Thank you so much!

[@jmartin9059]

J Martin 0 seconds ago VIHTAVUORI POWDERS also contain a Copper Fouling Eraser. As I understand it, ALL VihtaVuori powders have the Copper Fouling Eraser. Consider a powder that we can get real data for. 3N38, 3N37, N320, or N340 might be good choices. N340 seems most versatile FOR 7.62 X25 TOKAREV 'with load data' for MORE BULLET CHOICES than the other options.

[@johnwaugh365]

CFE Pistol is great stuff. It has a low flash and a great burn rate for auto pistol cartridges plus it can be used in .38 special and .357 magnum (especially plinking loads) with plenty of published load data. Cleans easy and meters well. Great powder in my opinion. Thanks for the video. I love the Tokarev. I love the illustration on the tablet. Showing the burning powder was a great bonus.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks for watching and taking time to comment! I wasn't sure if the burn rate illustration and demonstration was dumb/valuable or not but decided to leave it in, so I appreciate you mentioning it.

[@patrickpost3269]

Hello from Canada. I used you data and it worked great. Big thanks. I was reloading .223 brass and had to crimp down the neck fairly hard to get it to fit my gun, so i was a little worried about too much pressure. Happy to report that just over 7.1 grain seems to work quite well. Btw i used a locally made lead bullet sized down to .309 and had no trouble with crooked bullets, but as mentioned the hard crimp seemed to sort it all out. Thanks again for your hard work.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Hey Patrick, glad you were able to get some use out of this video. I think we have found a powder that works great in the Tokarev.

[@patrickpost3269]

I just discovered something important today and thought i would pass it along. A hard crimp was necessary on .223 converted brass, but if you get to carried away with this you can build up too much pressure and you get tumbling bullets and quite hot loads with the same powder charge! I know some of you guys figured this out already but some of us where not paying attention. So now Ive got an afternoon of bullet pulling in front of me.

[@roberttempest3291]

Copy. I just cleaned my brass an was gonna put some 223 together this after noon thanks for the heads up

[@danni8191]

The Tokarev hate is worst thing about US manufacturers.

[@rovtarforge4004]

Hello, I didn't see if anyone mentioned it before, but czech manufacturer Explosia has load data for the 7,62 tokarev for their powder Lovex. You can find some comparison charts for the other powders. Love the video!

[@TreeTopFlier]

Great tip, thanks for sharing and watching.

[@MultiChimRichalds]

seems like 7.2 grains is the plinking sweet spot

[@TreeTopFlier]

I would call 7.2 grains a performance load. If I was looking for a fun "plinking" load, I would probably look around 6.6-7.0 grains.

[@MultiChimRichalds]

@@TreeTopFlier not really imo, 7.2 is pretty standard middle of the road velocities for factory ammo. This catridge can easily push an 85 grain bullet to 1600 out of a TT with a full house load.

[@lordwetrustl7080]

I Dont know if youll see this, but if i was using ppus 85gr fmj bullets, would cfe still be safe to use and if so how much cfe would you reccomend to start?

[@TreeTopFlier]

First, I cannot tell you what is safe for you to do with your reloading or firearm. I can help you look at the situation though. The projectiles we are talking about are similar in construction so we can expect them to have similar barrel resistance. Next, the projectile you are using is slightly lighter than the one in the video. This means, all things being equal, you can use slightly more powder since you are pushing a lighter bullet and you can presume a lower pressure. Remember, we are managing pressure not performance, performance is a byproduct of pressure. In the video, I settled on 7.2gr of cfepistol. Where there is little data available, it is generally accepted that if you take a known number, say 7.2gr, and times it by .90 you would have a reduced load of 10% or a good starting place. 7.2X.90= 6.48. Thats where I would start given the same situation. Work up from there in .2gr increments. Pay attention to ejection patterns and function. NO powder substitutions, the powder must be a similar burn rate and energy as original powder. Last, if you are punching paper, there is no reason to push for high performance. Enjoy a lighter load, longer firearm life and easy to find brass. Hope this helps, sorry for the "teach a man to fish" explanation but safety first!

[@lordwetrustl7080]

@@TreeTopFlier oh wow you got back to me faster then I was expecting. Thanks for the advice, I never really planned to hot rod my ammo anyways as this was mostly just for plinking, I'll start my loads at 6.4 like you recommend. Thanks again!

[@Zirez0]

Would there be much diffrence with 85gr bullet ?

[@TreeTopFlier]

Generally speaking and without going into minor variances in bullet construction and seating depth. As long is you are looking at a lighter bullet it should be fine. Always start a little lower and work up.

[@captainnemo6001]

All great info, but what about accuracy? In addition to having to drive to the next county to find the fired brass, accuracy of my 3 Tokarev's is really poor, especially the Romanian.

[@TreeTopFlier]

It wasn't really my focus for this testing, I was looking for a safe operating range first and foremost, also I was shooting at different spots thru the chrono to get it to catch the light due to the angle of the sun. I would say that it felt best at 7.2 gr and I did see a reduction in group size. I dont consider myself a great pistol shooter either.

[@captainnemo6001]

Understood. I'm just a bit frustrated. My goal is to find a reasonably accurate load with cast bullets. I've tried 93 and 100 gr cast, sized to different diameters, and the 90gr Penn cast bullet which is .310, all with several different powders of various weights, and have yet to find a combination that is even close to satisfactory for a non-target pistol. I was at the range yesterday trying yet another combination, with my cast bullets powder coated this time, and a guy there asked if I've tried CFE pistol. Searching for some load data is how I found your video.

[@TreeTopFlier]

I would say this is a good powder for the tokarev because it seems to be a little slower burning. In my opinion , slower powders are less snappy and easier to shoot accurately. Other powders that people like are Silhouette and Accurate no 9. I have a hard time shooting bulls eye accuracy with my tokes leaving me to think they are inaccurate. When I put it in a rest, boom dead on. So I would say that, in my case, they are accurate but I dont shoot them particularly well lol.

[@captainnemo6001]

I'm going to keep working on it, for awhile anyway. I've tried Accurate #5, #7, and Bullseye. Both the accurate powders do not burn completely and I get unburned powder on the mag follower. So far I've had some of the best accuracy with 5.0 to 5.2gr of Bullseye and the 93gr cast bullet sized to .311. Thanks for the responses.

[@jnljnl8485]

In mother russia they just start with a full case of powder and back down until the primers stop blowing.😂

[@andresudako323]

would you happen to know a load for a 115 grain RN cast lead .309 using CFE pistol?

[@TreeTopFlier]

Funny you should ask. I have a mold for a Lyman 7.62x39 115 grain Ive fooled around with a little. I used 4.6 gr of CFE Pistol and everything seemed safe. Made about 1000 ft per second and about 264 ft of energy. The bullet is on the high side of optimal for this cartridge so I wouldn't be inclined to push it. But as always, I cant determine if this is safe for you to use. Always start low and work up. By safe my friend and thanks for watching.

[@andresudako323]

@@TreeTopFlier thank you for your response. so did the little that you did cycled pretty decent? will a COL of 1.300 be adequate? i will be given it a try this weekend and let you know, again thank you as its really hard rare to find any data for this caliber.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Take this with a grain of salt... I did this some time ago. According to my notes, I wrote down "1.385" for oal. (Mag length)". And said it ejected fine, and very soft shooting.

[@andresudako323]

@@TreeTopFlier worked flawless! 4.6-5 grains is good, good cycle and felt recoil. thank you

[@TreeTopFlier]

@@andresudako323 Thanks for coming back and letting me know. That's what makes it fun. Were those bullets powder coated?

[@someasianguy3793]

Has anyone ever tried the nagant revolver dewc bullets in this brass? I'm really curious if wadcutters are an option in tokarevs (aside from getting a custom lead mold)

[@TreeTopFlier]

I dont think that would be a good fit. The feed ramp on the Tokarev's is not the best. I have had problems trying to get the xtp to feed in one pistol. They are really designed for the round nose FMJ.

[@someasianguy3793]

@@TreeTopFlier as I figured, I'm looking for something besides the thousands of xtp and round nose bullets, I believe Graf's might have had a flat nose style cast .32 I could try swaging, but Berry's has round nose 85gr's pouring out everywhere

[@paulsowden2792]

I removed and cleaned the firing pin. Solved firing pin swipe.

[@kyfirearms]

I am looking to start reloading for my M57 Tokarev. Glad I found this video, great job.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks, if I can help, feel free to ask.

[@kyfirearms]

TreeTopFlier I usually get Lee dies, but I saw some negative comments about them. Do you have any recommendations for dies? Great video, thanks a lot.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Dies, yep that is a problem. So Lee is basically the only one who makes dies with out paying for custom. I like Lee dies but they are not the best for this cartridge. I have been hounding Hornady to make a die set for Tokarev because they have the best seating die (telescopic) and have offered to work with them to make a set that covers the issues. If they do it they will own the market for tokarev. You may want to check with them, maybe they started. So here is the run down on what is going on. 1. Starline is the most prominent source of reload brass for this cartridge. The cases they make have too much neck tension. Some as low as .304" 2. The Lee full length sizing die has a straight pin to punch out the primer, no sizing ball, so the neck stays too narrow. 3. My favorite bullet is the Hornady XTP with a dia. .309" Without expanding the neck its a tough fit. 4. Next the powder through die has an expanding bushing but it doesnt go deep enough into the neck and the more you adjust you just end up way over flaring the neck and still not enough at the bottom of the neck..any more and you crush the cartridge. 5. Next up the seating die...Lee uses a floating push pin for seating. Problem with that much neck tension and a very marginal neck bearing surface is the bullet cocks off sideways really bad. The fix... One need to address the diam of the case and expand that out. Me, I ordered a 300 Blackout decap pin and used it in the lee die. That helped a bunch. There are custom mandrels you can use also. Next if you can get your hands on one I use the Hornady 30 Luger seating die #044141. This die holds the bullet square until the seating pin can start setting it into the neck. They can still make it might give them a call. Anyway, its a bunch of problems but it is overcome able. Fire formed brass is not as big a problem. So if you buy ammo shoot it and reload you wouldnt notice much of this. Hope this helps.

[@kyfirearms]

TreeTopFlier Thanks for the awesome reply. I will probably start with the Lee dies, some once fired brass and go from there. You are awesome, thanks again.

[@TreeTopFlier]

My pleasure, happy to help.

[@Tunnellord]

Hey, what happened to your old video talking about the 7x62 lee dies and the process you used to reload 7x62 25?

[@TreeTopFlier]

They flagged my videos for TOS violations because I "showed how to make ammo" So I had to remove some of them to stay on KZbin. They are still available at TheReloadersNetwork.com , Gunstreamer.com and UGETube.com Link gunstreamer.com/@TreeTopFlier?page=videos All under the handle TreeTopFlier.

[@Tula1940_LB]

I have a problem with bullets not seating in straight or the bend the case mouth. Any ideas? I'm using resized 5.56 brass if that means anything to you.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Sorry I missed this comment: Its old but Ill answer anyway. My guess is you have too much neck tension and the bullet is getting cocked while seating. Converted brass needs to be neck reamed to get the neck wall thickness back to factory. During sizing this extra thickness get relocated into the interior of the case making the bullets fit too tight. I have a video on Rumble about some of this: rumble.com/v1n0zcs-tokarev-7.62x25-reloading-challenges-crooked-bullet-seating-and-more....html

[@JohnnysReloadingBench]

Great video. Makes me want to buy a Tokarev!

[@TreeTopFlier]

Do it! Life is short. I'm a cold war kid so it was a must for me. Thanks for watching!

[@svarog12g98]

You'll love it!!!

[@alecrobertson5415]

This helped me get started because the only powder realistically available to me was CFE. Fun fact, I have a Chinese P226 clone chambered in 7.62x25, and the load I ended up with shoots great in both that pistol and my M57. Thanks for sharing.

[@TreeTopFlier]

That's great! What powder charge did you end up with?

[@roberteleejames9977]

Thanks TreeTop , just found your video. I'm a little late to the party but have decided to reload 7.62 x 25. I watched video twice and I don't think I heard you mention it but those V.specs on S&B and PRVI are in a 12 & 10 inch barrel respectively . Just thought I'd mention those facts. Great video !

[@TreeTopFlier]

Good on you, I didnt find that barrel length they used. Hope you have good luck with the round.

[@wvgrillbilly]

Appreciate the video! I have a CZ52 it uses the same caliber and it is getting way to expensive to buy now. I just got the dies and am going to start loading it myself. I like CFE pistol and I use it in some other pistol rounds. Glad to see I can use it in my CZ.

[@TreeTopFlier]

fun round, hope youget good results.

[@MRKSCH101]

Hey there I just added this to my bucket list. I’ve encountered the bullets not seating evenly on the mouth and sitting crooked. Any suggestions for fixing? Ty

[@TreeTopFlier]

Ive encountered this. There are a lot of variables in your situation I dont know from your post but I'll give it a try anyway. This is a common problem or rather a stack of problems with this cartridge. In my case, It was a result of a narrow neck diameter on new (Starline brass) .304", metric bullets @.309", No expander ball in the sizing die, a floating seating die stem (Lee), and short neck and trying to compensate for a narrow neck by over flaring. This leaves very little neck to contact the bearing surface of the bullet. The bullet sets into a funnel shaped neck, hits the now tiny but narrow spot in the neck and the force of seating causes the causes the case and the bullet to cock. This goes away after first firing. You can use a mandrel in like 308 to prep the cases and it will get better. I run a 308" 300blk expander ball in my sizing die which does the same thing. Also, the Hornady OAL listed is too long for Tokarevs in my testing, it jams the lands. I use 1.295" Hornady data is .030" longer and may cause pressure spikes. If it helps, here is a video I did a long time ago, its not great and you can tell I'm struggling to explain it because I was still trying to get my mind around the problem. rumble.com/v1n0zcs-tokarev-7.62x25-reloading-challenges-crooked-bullet-seating-and-more....html

[@captainjayc9217]

I have never seen this topic coming up before. Very glad that you shared your experience.

[@jasonpeppel1182]

I can't tell you how much I appreciated your video. I am a very thorough study when I start to put energy into a new round and this is all of that and more. I have a special attachment to this particular round and I want to thank you for your study and coverage of all factors dedicated to a solid round. Fantastic!

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks for such a nice comment! It's a great round and I personally think the XTP projectal makes it a solid defensive option.

[@Josh-ev9do]

If I may ask what loading dies are you using? I have been trying to use lee 7.62x25 Tok dies but the keep seating the bullet at an angle

[@TreeTopFlier]

Good question, I am using the Lee set. But I use a luger seating die made by hornady. It has a telescopic tube that holds the bullets during seating. I dont think they still sell that die but you maybe able to order one. I use the hornady because I have had the same problem with bullet seating crooked. I have a video about it on my Rumble channel where I found a work around. For me, the problem was a combination of the Lee dies with brass from Starline. The new brass from starline has way too much neck tension and even if you size first the sizing die doesnt have an expander ball to pull back through the neck of the case and expand the neck out. When you seat a bullet the force and the loose seating pin in Lee cause the bullet to rock sideways. In the video I discussed using a 300 blackout expander ball in the tok sizing die. This works but you can also get a 308 mandrel and use that too. In my case no amount of belling would open it up enough to let the bullet seat without too much pressure. This seems to go away after the first firing since the neck gets blown out. Still I like the luger seating die for this application. Let me know if this helps. rumble.com/v1n0zcs-tokarev-7.62x25-reloading-challenges-crooked-bullet-seating-and-more....html

[@jrwatkins3872]

Hornadys Reload Manual has load info for 7.62x25 and the H XTP they make.

[@TreeTopFlier]

It does, just not for CFE pistol powder. Unless they added it in a later addition

[@52fordf1]

Thank you for mentioning that unique and cfe are close in their load weight when looking at various data. Being a new reloader, it gives me an alternative to look at since unique is difficult to find.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Unique is a great old time powder CFE is great too and there is a lot of load data out there for it now. Hornady and Hogdons has it for sure. If you do try to make an association between Unique and CFEpistol check losts of load data to find similarities then take the compared load and reduce it by 10% and work up. Best is to shoot over a chrono and test. Compared velocity is in a way a pressure test. Case signs of pressure are not reliable on pistol cases since they operate at a much lower pressure than rifle. Be safe.

[@buduvash]

I have two "Zastavas" M57 surplus and M57A new production. Both have new barrel links installed and feed FMJ without any problem. Neither pistol feeds HP (factory PPU ammo) reliably. About half of the rounds get jammed between the going forward slide and the barrel feeding lip. Tried different mags, but they all work the same. Hornady bullets look just like PPU ones. If anyone had a similar problem, I would appreciate some advice on how you fixed it.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Ive had the problem before. These were made to run round nose FMJ so the geometry is not perfect for hollow points. I was able to polish the feed ramp on the barrel and put just a little upward bend in the forward tang on the magazine follower. If your hand loading, you can also fool with the cartridge overall length. Good luck!

[@buduvash]

@@TreeTopFlier thank you. I will continue working on this. Also, Sierra makes expanding SP 85 gr that could be an alternative to HP.

[@erichansen8721]

Primer smear is due to weak springs. I load 90 gr xtp to 1550 fps and no smearing after replacing all springs in my m57 tokarev

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks for the comment! No doubt that newer/stronger springs would change or eliminate this effect. I was just using it as a cause and effect comparison to loosely observe slide velocity. Care to post a link to where you found parts? And what powder are you using?

[@BernieDiaz]

This was an interesting piece of info! Stronger or new springs is what it takes. Thanks

[@andresudako323]

Thank you so much for this video!

[@klinfield]

Great video! Thanks! Due to the pressure of the 7.62x25 I use Remington 5-1/2 primers for the Tokarev as the Remington 1-1/2 primers are for lower pressure cartridges such as 38 Special (note the warning label on the package of Rem 1-1/2). Although in your video showing the primers I didn't notice any that were pierced. Thanks again!

[@TreeTopFlier]

Sorry I missed your comment. Your are correct, the 5-1/2 are a better choice for this cartridge. I have never had a pierced primer on the 1-1/2 but its a good point. I was just using the visual observations to show a visual comparison between measurable performance and corresponding changes to the appearance of the primers. Not as scientific as other methods but not totally irrelevant either.

[@Toolness1]

Oh, and you should try to hunt down a CZ52 since you are loading for this caliber. They are a cool little gun, roller lock action and really unique and smooth shooting.

[@TreeTopFlier]

I passed on one at a gun show a couple years ago and now I wish I hadnt...its on my list ;-)

[@lilwoody4789]

My son is building a AR in 7.62 Tok with a 16" barrel. I'm going to start with Accurate #9 and work up through the burn rate chart to Lilgun in ladders with 90 grain XTPs.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Wow, that should be a sporty little rifle. If you have 16" barrel that would put H110 powder in play also. I would guess 1800 fps possible. A #9 is another solid choice.

[@christopherzarcone1363]

Thank god people like you came up with data I needed before I got into loading Xtreme cavitators for my tokarev

[@TreeTopFlier]

Those cavitators are a little oversized for a tokarev. 311. Do you plan on running them through a size first?

[@christopherzarcone1363]

TreeTopFlier yes, it’d be reckless not to do so

[@kirkboswell2575]

I'm new to the 7.62x25. For years I considered it to be quite a wimpy cartridge. I was probably thinking of the 7.63x25 Mauser the whole time. Needless to say, I had my eyes opened. Loading data is quite welcome.

[@mikesauer7775]

Don't know why American manufacturers didn't jump in. Russian ammo too cheap to compete against? .357 Sig and .357 mag.velocities, better than 9mm

[@TreeTopFlier]

Its a really strange thing. They have largely skipped over this round in both affordable ammo selections and reloading dies and components. last time I looked you could buy 30 Luger and 30 Mauser dies from various manufactures but not the way more popular, highly imported, Tokarev dies. Ive actually talked to Hornady about this with no answer.

[@oubliette862]

the dragging firing pin thing has bothered me for a long time. those ejected shells are no joke they'll draw blood if they hit someone in the face. after some tinkering and trial and error I've mitigated that issue a bit. I took a ring off the hammer spring, that was an improvement. I put a noncaptive recoil spring in the gun. then I put a compensator on it. the compensators are heavy, that helps slow things down some. my shells are landing 10 feet away instead of 30ft away now. mine is a 57 btw.

[@TreeTopFlier]

In the video, I used the firing pin swipes to capture slide velocity to see how the increase in load was effecting the cyclic rate. Not an end all indicator, just one of the thinks I observed to keep an eye on the development. If I was worried about them as a bad thing, I would put a fresh firing pin return spring in it. Yes, this pistols with a full house load can put your brass into a low earth orbit lol. The compensator is a cool idea. If you're reloading, and just making plinking rounds you can reduce your load by about 10% and they will land a lot closer.

[@ItAintJustPaint]

GREAT video

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks for watching!

[@828enigma6]

Run the speed on the video on 1.25 to 1.5, so as to not waste your time. He has good data but talks too much/slow.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Ha that's awesome!

[@redsunrrr5208]

really well done vid thanks

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thank you.

[@ComradeArthur]

It'd be nice to see some ballistic gel video with the HP bullets. I haven't seen anything useful on youtube for the 7.62x25

[@TreeTopFlier]

That would be nice, I would like to see that as well.

[@duffysgunsmithing2585]

you can try shortening the firing pin by about .025 or more but start with .025 and take a little off at a time to minimize the swipe .i have found the firing pin length on the m57's to be unwarranted.

[@TreeTopFlier]

I wasnt showing it as a problem just showing it as an indicator of slide velocity. You have any pro tips for reducing the crazy ejection of the brass?

[@duffysgunsmithing2585]

you can try cutting the ejector back a little at a time but i would most definitely have a spare on hand in case you make a mistake. also i would run as heavy of a spring as possible to slow the slide down . send me an email to [e-mail] and i can take pics of my recoil assembly that ive been working on. it eliminates the captive spring setup and utilizes a second buffer spring to stop slide battering .

[@briancornwell4621]

ive been working on a tok load for my Yugo M57 with cfe pistol using SPEER 110 round TMJ and Speer 110 Varminter HP bullets. personally for plinking i use 5.5 gr and 1.360 so i can find the brass easier, however i have gone up to 6.5 with no signs of overpressure. i have no Chrono at the moment so i was wondering if you could help me out. Also, 6.5 gr sent the brass to the next county, even compared to PPU 85gr HP

[@Physics072]

How do you reload when the only die I could find was cheap Lee dies that have tons of complaints. Are there good dies for 7.62x25?

[@TreeTopFlier]

I wouldnt call the Lee dies crappy. There is one problem they do not address which I covered in another video. It really has more to do with the starline brass in combination with 90gr xtp. If you are using spent brass you wont have those problems. I am told that RCBS makes a 30 Mauser set that will work. I would call and talk to them before ordering. If I had it to do over, I would still get the Lee set and make some minor adjustments. Let me know if you have problems, I can probably help.

[@Physics072]

@@TreeTopFlier Yea I just remember on this particular round the name Lee = 1,000s of complaints so that is why I said problems. Would rather see some other options. Funny there is a company that makes commerical 7.62x24 TT ammo and its ok. I would just buy what ever dies they use because its good enough where they can sell it by the box.

[@Toolness1]

I've done ridiculously extensive load testing on the Tokarev cartridge, testing all loads off a bench with a chrono using two different Yugos, a Romanian, two different Polish Tokarevs, and two CZ 52s. I tried every bullet imaginable and my best results came from the Bayou bullets 115gr bullet made for the M1 Carbine. Second best were the Hornady soft point for the 30 Mauser cartridge. The best results out of several powders actually came from WC820 which is surplus M1 Carbine powder, very similar to H110. I have a pretty long thread with some of the results on the MDshooters website under the reloading subforum. I had major issues with my Lee die set, as have other people. The sizing die isn't right and brass wouldn't chamber freely in any of the Tokarev pistols. Worked fine in the CZ52 however. I ended up running all my brass thru a 9mm sizer after the Tok sizing die and that fixed the issue. Lee wasn't helpful when I contacted them and denied that there was an issue even though I know of several other people who have contacted them about the same issue.

[@TreeTopFlier]

The Lee set is not a very good set of dies for tokarev. In my experience the necks need a sizing ball instead of a pin found in the full length sizing die. The bullet seating die doesn't guide the bullet adequately to prevent cocked bullets. The crimp die is ok, thats about it. The only thing going for Lee is they actually make a set that is affordable. So I agree with you. Feel free to share a link to your work here...its all about the information!

[@Toolness1]

Yeah I had issues with trying to keep the bullets straight as well! Especially the stubby Hornady SP for the 30 Mauser. I ended up putting a gasket around the seating stem to keep it centered and that helped some. A Hornady seating die with the sleeve would be ideal. I've been replacing all my Lee rifle seating dies with Hornady for that same reason. They might have fixed the sizing die eventually but they definitely had a batch years ago that wasn't right. My dad got one with the same issue and I saw several complaints on the forums of the sizing die not quite doing enough sizing on the brass. Lee wanted me to send in several pieces of fired brass from each of my pistols and I just didn't feel like it once I figured out the 9mm sizing trick. I had all the barrels out of my several Tokarev guns and was doing the "plunk" test with the sized brass and the stuff wouldn't freely fall in and out of the chamber. Run through a 9mm die and it took care of that little bit of excess diameter and they worked fine. Apparently the CZ52 pistols have a slightly more generous chamber than the Tokarev variants. Glad to see someone doing testing on these, there's really not a lot of people loading this cartridge. It's a really fun round.

[@Toolness1]

I was so paranoid trying out the WC820 powder since there's no existing load data for it. I actually hid behind a tree and wore a welding glove when I tested it the first time. The brass is so hard to find, similar to 9x18 which really launches it too. Setting up a tarp helps if you have room.

[@TreeTopFlier]

All good info. I have a Hornady 30 Luger seating die that really makes a huge difference when loading for this. Unfortunately they stopped making them and selling them individually. The 30 mauser seating die would also work but they sell it by itself. The main issue Ive found is the necks need to be expanded. The Starline cases come in at .304 inside diameter...Too much neck tension. The neck expanding die doesn't go deep enough and if you try to adjust it deep enough you end up crushing the case a little. I use a 300 blackout expander pin in the sizing die and it really helps open it up and reduce neck tension. So far I havent run into a chambering issue with this die set...mine are from 2013, but good to know. Im thinking of making a video of what we have been talking about to help move the ball forward for others.

[@davidcasey2703]

I use the expander ball from my 30\06 sizer die if that helps anybody.

[@megel454]

Ok... but what size primer did you use?

[@TreeTopFlier]

Small pistol. Those are Remington 1 1/2

[@BernieDiaz]

Got a Zastava M57 Tokarev for Xmas and was about to order ammo online until I saw this video (and the 'extended' one as well). I'm sold! I ordered the LEE dies, Starline brass and Hornady #31000. I have CFE Pistol and CCI primers already. My son in law laughed because he knew it wouldn't be long before I started reloading for it. He was just surprised I didn't even attempt to shoot commercial ammo through it before going that route. Your video is so thorough that it was a no brainer. I will do some testing, but with your data in mind I will probably do 0.2 increments from 6.8 to 7.6 on my gun just to confirm where the sweet spot is on mine. 7.2 is burnt in my mind though as a great reference. Thank you very much for a great video... and, yes, I liked and suscribed.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Wow, thanks for the great comment. I hope it works for you.

[@BernieDiaz]

Finally made it to the range to test my loads. Confirmed that 7.2 gr CFE Pistol was the correct sweet load for my pistol with the Hornady #31000 XTP bullet. Watched again your video to refresh my memory on the details mentioned and my pistol also had those long firing pin swipes that you show. Very satisfied with the pistol and the results. Thanks again for your contribution. I did get a bite on my hand from the lower left edge of the pistol. Has a pointed edge that I need to grind down a bit. I have the very same issue with my Bersa Thunder and Makarov 380 ACP pistols.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Good news, so glad it worked out for you! And thanks so much for coming back and sharing your results with everyone else. I have had the tokes give me a hammer bite when I get the web between my thumb and fore finger to high up. The slide comes back and drives the hammer down and if the skin in the notch, its ugly. Then you find out why we have beaver tails LOL. Happy trails sir.

[@aleksandrbondarenko3193]

My greetings.. In your video "Tokarev 7.62x25 reloading challenges, crooked bullet seating" at 17:00 minutes you are talking and showing plank test and inconsistency.. My barrel length with empty case is 5.233" with empty case & positive plank test vs 5.271 with bullet seated at 1.370 OAL & not clean plank test.. To get ideal chambering I need to seat bullet at 1.330 - it is almost the max capacity of seating die.. 1.372 is standard OAL for factory ammo, and I like this length also because it is exactly into cannelure on my bullets.. So what problem may I encounter in this case, if any? Thanks in advance..

[@TreeTopFlier]

Took me a minute to figure out what video you were talking about. For reference the video can be found here: rumble.com/v1n0zcs-tokarev-7.62x25-reloading-challenges-crooked-bullet-seating-and-more....html I'm not sure what bullet you are using so take with a grain of salt. Bullets with different profiles will contact the lands at different OAL. Im using Hornady xtp 90 gr #31000. I jam the lands with the bullet at 1.310" with that I back them up to 1.295" which is shorter than what the Hornady manual calls for. Using your numbers, at 1.330" you seem to be .059 into the lands with your bullet. I wouldnt shoot that. First, this could prevent your slide from fully closing in the locked position where the mechanism is at its strongest. Second, there is no bullet jump for the bullet to move prior to being engraved by the lands. This is a possible over pressure situation for a hand gun cartridge. It can be managed with reduced powder charge but better not to start there. In short the firearm is designed to head space off the mouth of the case, if the bullet is to far forward that spacing is not possible. If your chambering is a feed problem at shorter lengths, maybe take a look at your magazine. Pull it apart, give a good cleaning, lubrication and look at the geometry there. Im happy to help and answer questions, lets continue this at the video on rumble.com in the above link.

[@aleksandrbondarenko3193]

​@@TreeTopFlier I am using standard S&B 7.62 X 25 Tokarev (.308) FMJ 5.5 g (85 gr) I will check your link, but I got your video on gunstreamer ;) Thanks for you reply - going to think about it..

[@TreeTopFlier]

Good info! Ok, my factory S&B ammo is loaded to 1.355" (Max book OAL or magazine length is 1.385") with what is probably the same bullet you are using. I would assume you are ok at 1.330" If you are still not passing the plunk test or the total barrel measurement , I would really try to figure out why not. (Its possible i misunderstood what you were saying.) You could have a carbon ring built up in the throat of the chamber that is preventing the bullet from going completely forward. If it was me, after making sure there was no obstruction, carbon etc., I would do the total barrel measurement test @17:00 on a test round (no powder or primer) that is long and keep seating it deeper a little at a time until the total number stops shrinking indicating that you are now on the case mouth in the chamber (5.233" your number). See what that number is and give yourself another .005" clearance and load accordingly. We have to be careful with these old war relics. They may be subject to more variation than we would think. Hope this is helpful.

[@aleksandrbondarenko3193]

​@@TreeTopFlier Definitely helpful.. I will get in touch if some info or questions.. Thanks again, good luck..

[@lawrenwimberly7311]

try imr4227

[@KSFWG]

I've always wanted a Tokarev but haven't had the opportunity to get one. Interesting video, and as always, very informative. Thank you for sharing your information and experience!

[@TreeTopFlier]

You can still find them for about $200, you should do it before they dry up. Its a lot of fun and fairly inexpensive to reload for once you have the brass. Thanks as always staying with the channel. I appreciate your long time support!

[@KSFWG]

I always appreciate your informative videos. I especially like your videos on the Lee products, as that it is what I use. I find that your videos are among the most informative ones out there for Lee equipment.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Very kind of you to say sir. Thank you!

[@danhauser9164]

Question. So I am told that surplus or commercial loadings of 7.62x25 are too high velocity relative to 9mm to be used for shooting at steel targets for competition purposes. . Is there a way to make 7.62x25 as safe as 9mm for this purpose, or do I need to start shopping around for something in a different caliber?

[@TreeTopFlier]

I have missed a bunch of comments on some videos. Old but Ill answer anyway. Not sure what people were getting that unless there are some steel core stuff in surplus im not aware of?? A magnet test should reveal. If its pure velocity and energy, any target that would take a 40 S&W, 10 mm should be fine for tolk...

[@naphtali4926]

This is so cool, i wish i wasnt such a numbskull or that i had more people into reloading near me, id fund some seriously cool reloading projects.

[@patpatterson12]

On your second year, and still providing time,y info! I purchased my Zastava M57 in January, and had my PPS 43C delivered today. I was able to get a good deal of $19.95 per 72 round box for 10 boxes. When those are gone, though, it looks like it’s 30 cents per round, and up. I left off reloading about 10-12 years ago, and I have to get back up to speed.

[@jmartin9059]

*VIHTAVUORI POWDERS also contain a Copper Fouling Eraser. As I understand it, ALL VihtaVuori powders have the Copper Fouling Eraser. Consider a powder that we can get real data for. 3N38, 3N37, N320, or N340 might be good choices. N340 seems most versatile FOR 7.62 X25 TOKAREV 'with load data' for MORE BULLET CHOICES than the other options.*

[@TreeTopFlier]

Great post. We need all the options we can get!

[@joerigby8393]

Thank you for the tokarev data. I love your approach to reloading. I noticed that some of your average & standard deviation calculations didn't always result in the same answers as I calculated based on your speed data. I was wondering if your speed/velocity values were rounded in the sheet that is displayed but your calculations used the number with the fractions. Thank you none the same I am using this approach exactly for my reloads.

[@gameofthrottle3750]

Neat!

[@catg7855]

Great video!! I'm just getting ready to start reloading for this round and wasn't sure which powder to us. You also cleared up the powder burn ratio with your graph and explanation. Keep up the good work.

[@TreeTopFlier]

Thanks for watching! This is cartridge can be a little bit of a challenge to load for. The most common set of dies easily attainable is the Lee set which is ok but not great. I am a Lee fan usually but this set leaves something to be desired. First: If your loading virgin starline brass, the neck diameter of the new brass can be as tight as .304" too much neck tension for a .309 bullet. Makes seating the bullet strait difficult. The sizing die comes with a pin like most pistol sets but the cartridge is really more like a little rifle cartridge so it would be nice to have an expander ball to open up the neck a little. I solved this by using a blackout expander pin in the sizing die and it helps alot. The neck expanding plug in the powder through die doesnt go deep enough to solve this. Once fired brass is not a problem. Next the bullet seating die. like most lee dies uses a floating push pin which relies on case neck concentricity to align the bullet during seating. This usually works but not on the Tokarev. The case doesnt have enough neck to square the bullet so the bullet cocks easily even with an expanded neck. I use a hornady luger seating die. It is unique because it has a telescopic guide that holds the bullet square while the seating pin pushes down. The Mauser die would work also. I probably need to make a video about that too lol. Thanks for watching!

[@catg7855]

Thanks for the info. I have the Lee die set. I just haven't tried it yet. I'll let you know how it goes. A video on what you were telling me would be awesome.

[@TreeTopFlier]

I've been toying with the idea of more tokarev videos. Until then if you have any questions I'm happy to share what I know.

[@catg7855]

Thanks

[@caliplinker2819]

Great video. What are your thoughts on using 110grn M1 carbine projectiles? That would be a good video for this round, great job!!

[@TreeTopFlier]

It can be done. Obviously you would have to back down the load considerably from here as you would be pushing a heavier projectile and loosing case capacity to a larger bullet. Every cartridge has an optimal bullet weight for productivity. 110 grains would be on the high side for this cartridge. I have shot up too 115 grains.

[@asam1997.]

مابي عرب هين يشوفون طلقات الشميزر

[@bobvagene]

can you send me a pic of your results spreadsheet somehow..? i finally got some time to load up and try this out. i started at 6.3 and went to 7.3 in .2 increments.. i shot from my tt33 and cz52.. good accuracy and cycling with all. settled on 6.8 for my standard load.. just want to know what velocity you got with 6.8 grains..

[@TreeTopFlier]

If you go to 21:59 mark I put a full screen of the spread sheet so you can pause on it and hit full screen. I got 1370 fps with 6.8 grs. Hope that helps

[@nazareth4u524]

As the 7.62x25 Russian cartridge will chamber in a C96 mauser broom handle pistol is any of your findings With this powder under 1400 psi that is safe in the old C96 pistol?

[@TreeTopFlier]

Hi, if it were me, I would chronograph some actual mauser ammo. Then compare it to my data sheet embedded in this video. Find a load close in velocity....reduce a little and try that.

[@nazareth4u524]

Great idea Thanks I will try it. It would be great to find a load that works in the C96 mauser and the Russian TT-33 Tokarev pistol though underpowered in the Tokarev.. Hopefully I can find a load that works in both.

[@travispowell2471]

Very interesting indeed. I just figured it was tite group with some cleaners added. So I guess it's a new animal in the CFE.

[@TreeTopFlier]

According to Hornady it is a new formula.

[@williamwilliams7706]

I went all in when I got my first M57 Zastafa a couple of months ago. Bought starline brass, bullets, Lee dies and factory crimp die. Since I have a Dillon reloader I got the caliber conversion kit with expander. I have some published data but I'm impressed with you testing and I really like CFE pistol. I am going to start at 6.6 gr. I checked your video at least 3 times and I'm not sure of the seating depth. Thanks for showing us your hard work.

[@TreeTopFlier]

I came up with 1.295" That was .005 off the lands in my measuring. Hope that helps

[@williamwilliams7706]

@@TreeTopFlier Great thanks for the reply. These are working great with one piece of advice from me. My pistol had trouble stripping the top 2 rounds off the mag and feeding.They would nose dive and and get caught on the bottom of the feed ramp. I started using PPU brass and the problem went away. The extractor groove on the Starline is cut square and was acting like rimlock. PPU has a bevel instead on the groove and feeds without problems. Also Graff and Sons sell a Hornady 30 Mauser bullet that is made exclusively for Graff... I like the XTPs but these are a better price per bullet for plinking.

[@bobvagene]

im doing the same thing right now.. comparing burn rates, case capacity and tying to get a safe educated guess.. before I watch the video im going to say my safe guess is starting at 5.5gn cfe pistol with a 90gn fmj.. I'll be interested to see what you came up with now..

[@TreeTopFlier]

You did good! Nothing wrong with starting at 5.5gr. Any surprises from the video?

[@bobvagene]

TreeTopFlier yeah.. i was a little surprised at how high you were able to go. actually i just checked my notes and i came to 5.5gn start load for a 110gn 30 carbine bullet. haven't been able to get it to seat with enough neck tension to not completely set back on chambering.. for the 90gn xtp i was going to start at 6.0gn.. i am also going to load some with the h110 data in the hornady manual..

[@TreeTopFlier]

I would be very careful with 110gr bullet if your getting set back. That could have a dangerous effect. I would be interested if your load development results mirror mine with cfe. I didn't like the results with H110 and didn't really see the velocities they talked about. Thanks for participating and watching.

[@garlicbreathandfarts]

Cops still carry Tokarevs where I live. It is a terrifying cartridge!

[@TreeTopFlier]

I dont think the FMJ version stacks up well but the hollow point version Im making is really potent.

[@justinpennington7682]

Where do you live?

[@garlicbreathandfarts]

@@justinpennington7682 Southern Albania.

[@justinpennington7682]

No they don't

[@justinpennington7682]

@garlicbreathandfarts ok I see. 👍🏻

[@slipjointguy]

My lee reloading book has data!

[@TreeTopFlier]

Modern Reloading 1st addition had some data and the die sets still come with some obligatory loads.

[@slipjointguy]

@@TreeTopFlier My 2019 editions has some data, but its all V-powders, CFE is a easier and cheaper to get a hold of. great vid, and great info!