Dies To Removal 15 - Why Magic: The Gathering Formats Fail! Tiny Leaders, Frontier, and Brawl

[@bord1741]

Vince: “I’m so tired, I need to go to bed.” Prof, cracking whip: “NO…. OATHBREAKER.”

[@ConsoleCleric]

Bookmarks: 5:00 - 1) Format has rules that result in fewer possibilities. 9:15 - 2) Fallibility in formats results in players being hesitant to adopt new ones. 10:40 - 3) New formats can be criticized for having ulterior motives. 17:44 - 4) Brawl. 23:35 - 5) Inaccessibility. 26:15 - 6) Why Oathbreaker has a chance. 30:30 - 7) Legacy. 35:40 - 8) Vintage. 37:12 - 9) Commander. 43:40 - 10) Too many formats.

[@ry7hym]

thaanks!

[@kratky420]

The hero we need

[@endersblade]

To be fair, as an EDH player I actually kinda enjoy the idea behind Oathbreaker. Of all the formats mentioned here, I really would like to see Oathbreaker take off.

[@adamhanson5565]

This is the general attitude in my playgroup. A couple of us built decks, but we haven't gotten to play yet.

[@sandwichboy1268]

Especially with the planeswalker passives from war, helps make the decks focused like my commander decks.

[@darrickroesser6933]

@@adamhanson5565 something my playgroup did was pick names randomly and we would choose the PW for the person we picked. It was fun but most people took apart their decks after night 1

[@ZanZerejin]

I too like the idea as an EDH player. Can see some problems with it as some spells are just way too powerful to use from a commandzone. But a preconstructed as partner commanders I am down to the idea. Then the card is created with the balance needed to work (or one can hope so it doesn't become way too powerful).

[@DDNEV]

I've built two now. Basically just Oathbreaker versions of modern decks. Wrenn and Six Ponza. Narset, Parter of Veils taking turns

[@Kazz1187]

in the skit, I expected you to appear from the fridge haha

[@TrylleBanjo]

Same

[@justenleonas]

Same

[@oliverdanckert5407]

Same

[@carmenmartin1119]

Me to

[@davedussault7251]

Ditto

[@demoncatch85]

Now I want to play Moderately sized leaders.

[@09419]

How about large leader only basics and cmc 4+ cards.

[@sangb1732]

Douglas Worthen I personally prefer even larger leader 5- cmc

[@oom-3262]

you mean thicc leaders?

[@ashenwuss1651]

Micro Leaders? 1-drops and non-basics only

[@logancooper3625]

Moderately sized leaders: Only CMC 4.

[@thatguyfromthatthing3006]

i will be buying the brawl precons i will never play a game of brawl i just want more commander tools

[@mtgsykotic3142]

The same but for oathbreaker lol

[@SindanezDuskwind]

Good man

[@amadeustd3418]

@@muffinoffun1843 ikr, it helps as a mana rock and fix your mana for the colors you use

[@testthewest123]

WotC: "Success!"

[@jacksonfrench4048]

same here mate

[@kingcoheed1208]

As a Yugioh Player I find it fun to see Magic Players talk about No Interaction Games

[@SoloFan87]

I see where your coming from on the No Interaction games, However on YGO's Side Konami is not good either way. They can't even manage the soul format. The Biggest problem I feel with YGO is both Konami and the Playerbase (Community)

[@nimrodkeren783]

Definitely Konami... I mean as a person who used to play yugioh I find the idea that almost all cards don’t have a cost and you can throw a single creature out every turn really interesting. The problem is that the art is mostly really bad, the design team is completely off the rails and the game is made for Asian audiences almost exclusively.

[@HomeCookinMTG]

Ngl, some combo decks do feel like tier 1 YGO decks that kill on t1 or t2.

[@tulius123]

I will play Brawl at Arena, because is a Commander-Like game, and is on Arena...one paper I will just play Commander instead

[@ToothyMTG1]

Túlio Leitão same here.

[@fartface8918]

Yup

[@hurwitz3484]

it's a 1vs1 so I see no commander traces there

[@jakeapplegate6642]

Arena won’t have multiplayer and probably never will.

[@cris5555]

Hurwitz But it's going to have a commander and it's going to be singleton, its the closest to commander online without mandatory paid cards

[@DatBrasss]

The thing that makes me unafraid to invest in Oathbreaker is that it is Insanely easy to convert an Oathbreaker deck into a commander deck. If the format fails, and I doubt it will (Personally, I think it will never be as popular as commander, but will keep going as a smaller format), then I just add 39 cards and swap out the planeswalker for a legendary creature that fits the strategy. Boom. Commander deck.

[@curts7801]

My Kozilek deck spits out 40 cards, and swaps new Ugin for Kozilek. And I get me some Oathbreaker.

[@carric_siannodel7935]

My freyalise elf deck fir oathbreaker is just a better version of my azure commander deck since I can take out the fluff

[@denisochiuto7535]

Aminatou Oathbreaker is also Aminatou Commander! 😀

[@odioalospoopers]

i do the opposite. i have my commander as both a tymna/vial smasher and a sorin/vamp. tutor for the sake of not sleeving more, and only have to swap 4 basics in

[@nathanjayroda8908]

Same goes for my braggo commander deck. Just swap venser as oathbreaker and you have an oathbreaker deck.

[@brningpyre]

Just watch Vincent's hands the whole episode. The man is a massive hand-talker, lol. My main problem with Historic is (a) it's not gonna get played in paper, and (b) its name overlaps with a mechanic that's played within that format, which is really annoying.

[@cainderous2421]

That second point really just proves to me that WotC didn't actually think or care about anything regarding Historic and they just took the lowest effort option to tell people their rotated Arena cards aren't worthless. They slapped a name on it that makes less than zero sense (shares a name with the mechanic and "historic" sounds older than "modern") and they chose not to back-add sets because that would mean paying programmers more money.

[@croco263]

@@cainderous2421 the cards are already in, we played with them back in closed beta ...its just low effort on wotc part. And yeah kala has some cards that might break the format but guess what, its a free game with no real economy it would cost them 0 to say we ban X, Y, Z cards you get a 1 mythic/rare/uncommon card for each card we banned. could make a very healthy format tbh

[@TheRealBitterbub]

When he opened the fridge, I was half expecting to see the Professor's face in there.

[@mikeyjhilli]

so did I.

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

"Oathbreaker." "Later..."

[@1urie1]

Brawl: *is dying* WotC: Let's put it into Arena

[@Dothreban]

The people running WotC are retarded.

[@10JudgeP]

@Proton Historic brawl is played and doing well on arena

[@sean_koellewood]

I only play brawl in Arena

[@sunseekerjules]

I love brawl on arena. It is like a mini Commander.

[@LonelyIslandAreWin]

The card frame change is M15. If frontier was from origins that would unironically be pretty great, as long as standard bans were carried forward, but alas, hareruya wanted to sell their spare goblin rabblemasters and other m15/khans standard staples. This was a mistake, and this is coming from a card carrying member of r/SiegeRhino

[@MichaelMoore99]

Yeah, everything I heard was that M15 was legal in Frontier, too.

[@anthonyjamesgarner]

LonelyIslandAreWin exactly. The hologram was in m15 or at least Khans. The problem was 4c Rally.

[@Mars-tt5gp]

Frontier should have started at Origins! And then it could be called ‘Origins’

[@Illusive1313]

Just don't call it Postmodern. That's the dumbest name right after a format that's called Historic which is smaller than Modern/Legacy/Vintage.

[@kylekafka6636]

I think the card pool is deep enough now as well. I was hoping that Arenas Historic format would have started at Origins instead of just being the continuation of standard

[@MrWhowatchesme]

I think Origin Format makes sense now. The card pool is very extensive.

[@brandondrake4609]

One of the main reasons they won’t do that is because of the khans block fetches

[@Mars-tt5gp]

Origins came out after Khans block, so it would avoid the fetch land issue.

[@TheSpectralFX]

14:48 Pleasant Kenobi is trying to tell us something in his non-verbal language. If you need help man, touch you nose three time in the next video.

[@Arakasi0]

The biggest problem a lot of these formats seem to have is twofold - 1. They have commanders 2. They don't know their competitive identity. Tiny Leaders? Was it a competitive 1v1 format or a 4v4 Commander competitor? Woops, we broke the format because commanders inherently restrict the pool of viable decks. Brawl? A fun casual 1v1+ format, or a 4v4 commander competitor? Woops, we broke the format because commanders inherently restrict the pool of viable decks. Canadian Highlander? Oh, it's definitely a 1v1 competitive format? There's no commanders and a council that tweaks a point list so no archetype can dominate? Sweet. It works. Oathbreaker? Oh, it's definitely a ~4v4 casual format? Also has oversight and history of dealing with degeneracy? Sweet. It works. Commander? Oh, it's definitely a ~4v4 casual format? Sweet. It works. My thesis from this then is as follows: Commanders are incompatible with diverse and fun /competitive/ formats, but since in casual formats multiple players will band together against degeneracy, and people will often choose sub-optimal decks in these formats because the find them fun, this is not a problem for multiplayer non-competitive scenarios.

[@juhkystar]

Really nice and concise summary! Thanks :)

[@KeitaroHirochi]

@Ninja Named Bob The simple fact that cEDH is referred to as cEDH and not just EDH says a lot about the casual spirit of Commander.

[@FearOgre]

@@KeitaroHirochi or that fact the format has multiple labels. I've see "causal EDH", "EDH," and "cEDH" all referred to different things.

[@jdonvance]

"What happens to my Standard cards when they rotate out?" Block. Constructed. They don't even have to be from the same block. My Tarkir Block Deck vs. your Ravnica: City of Guilds Block Deck. Let's go.

[@mattbarrett1560]

I think they tried that, but it died. Some blocks ate just objectively more powerful than others.

[@jdonvance]

@Proton In any set with fetches, one can only fetch basics. I don't see that as an automatic win. Also, there are no blocks with OG duals. The concept of blocks didn't come around until Ice Age and Mirage (retroactively), or Tempest (properly).

[@Imaxxacre1]

I think Brawl's home will be on MTG Arena. It just doesn't make sense to buy cards for a rotating Commander format.

[@danielduncan8461]

Sure it does. You can buy into a decent deck for $20 and play it for a year and a half. Compare that to the cost of cinema tickets.

[@MajraMangetsu]

I think so too.

[@cjkumo]

But I'm bot buying individual cards for Brawl, I am drafting and ending up with the cards I need. This is draft chaff, the format. Not standard-commander.

[@danielduncan8461]

Why not? I picked up a $7 order the other day to complete my Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God Brawl deck. Low overhead and a great way to jam games with casual players who aren't running fast mana, stax, or degenerate combos. It solves literally every problem Commander/Oathbreaker has.

[@Kodywit-AK]

I agree @DANIEL DUNCAN

[@milohobo9186]

With commander, I and other people I’ve seen, have bragged about matching flavor with deckbuilding. Having pieces of the story, or having all or most of the spells and lands from just one plane, or other Vorthos elements mixed in.

[@redstonepro5412]

brawl died because commander is just a better format, so if it is in mtga it wont fail and it comes to mtga

[@ohnosmoarlulcatz]

@@altosforteaquax5083 Brawl didn't die because of commander. Brawl died because they didn't have enough cards to support the format.

[@anonymoususer69]

AltosForteAqua x I have a bunch of commander decks. I’ve invested a good amount of my limited money into commander. It’s not elitist to not want to spend my money on a rotating format.

[@gabuchan111]

@@altosforteaquax5083 Not true. You can't blame the playerbase for another format for the downfall of another. When brawl was a thing, every commander player in my lgs was playing brawl, and everyone was having fun. It just died out eventually.

[@MultiTaz333]

@@altosforteaquax5083 fuck off asswipe we are not and i love brawl and oathbreaker and I'm a commander player

[@FoMScratch]

There is one common factor that I have noticed in relation to Brawl dying at various LGS as well as comments from online groups. That common factor is that they ran it as a 1v1 format. Brawl was never intended to run as 1v1, it was a multilayer format. The LGS closest to my house has run it as a multiplayer league and they are currently on their 4th season. From what I have read online the LGS stores that run it as a multiplayer format have seen similar success.

[@PiroMunkie]

I think another part of the problem with things like Tiny Leaders, Brawl, and Oathbreaker is that they are just derivative of Commander. You sort of touched on it a bit with the whole "Well, why aren't we just playing Commander?" But I think it's a big thing about the lack of success of those formats. When my friends and I want to play Magic but are a bit burned out on Commander, we aren't going to turn around and play a Commander variant. We'll play 2-headed Giant. We'll play Emperor. If someone has a bunch of boosters we'll draft or do Wizard's Tower.

[@bejammin2000]

Here's an idea. Commander is 100 card singleton format with a color rule and a leader card. Oathbreaker is a 60 card singleton format with a color rule, a leader card, and a signature spell. I have an Oathbreaker deck that I added 40 cards to create a Commander deck and keep the list with me to know which 40 cards to pull to form the oathbreaker deck.

[@The5lacker]

There are all of seven cards in the game that can be a leader in both Commander and Oathbreaker.

[@PwnedintheFaceStudio]

Thats what I do with my commander/tiny leaders deck.

[@MrEliakimRAS]

That's a great idea :-)

[@flametitan100]

@@The5lacker Alternatively, you can use your Oathbreaker as one of the 99 in Commander, or your commander as one of the 58 in your Oathbreaker Deck (assuming that the commander is not one of the 40 cards that differentiate the OB deck and Commander deck.)

[@bejammin2000]

@@flametitan100 That's exactly what I do. I run W/B. My Oathbreaker is Kaya, Orzhov Usurper. My Commander is Ghost Council. It's one of the 40 cards that are added to the OB deck to create the Commander deck. And it's still two decks for the price of one, so if you want expensive cards that would work in both decks, you only need one copy. (I mostly converted my OB deck into Commander due to buying most of the non-basic W/B lands for it and found U/R to be prohibitively expensive for some ODD reason.)

[@toomanyowlz]

Oathbreaker for me is no where near dead. My fnm has oathbreaker every other Friday. I really enjoy it. But sometimes, I wish it was regular commander....

[@sandwichboy1268]

My fnm has commander every Monday night but no oathbreaker.

[@stefanocorno4649]

I was actually just thinking that it might be interesting to take one of your commander decks with a planeswalker and cut 40 cards to make an oathbreaker deck, either preplanned or on the spot. So 1 deck works for 2 formats. For example, I've got an ephara flash deck, but I just keep the best cards and put venser the sojourner and ephemerate or something at the helm. Sure, it wouldn't be perfect but at least you can participate in both formats.

[@nightowlyt5570]

My fnm has commander on Monday's and oathbreaker on Thursday's

[@OmegaCrafter17]

Packs On Packs The people at my lgs don't really care about playing oathbreaker, so it kind of sucks that no one there wants to play which is more annoying for me because I love to get ideas on decks for the format.

[@zachevans2220]

My LGS doesn't have Oathbreaker events, but several of the regulars like the format, and it's becoming common to hear people trying to figure out if they can fire a game of Oathbreaker between rounds of Modern. Most of their Oathbreaker decks are more degenerate than their Modern decks, so I'm trying to work out a deck that just hoses all of them without just being a stax deck...

[@asmodean7239]

Brawl didn’t die. Corpses don’t die, they decompose.

[@asmodean7239]

baerleon But not this time, this one was miscarriage.

[@Dyllrboy]

baerleon it was dead as it began. “Brawl? Don’t you mean baral?” That line killed the format right from the start. There was no support, and the first we get are years later.

[@dogdriver70]

yep, Brawl was DOA

[@jonigazeboize_ziri6737]

@baerleon Izzet mom brawl.

[@jonigazeboize_ziri6737]

@baerleon Sounds trû.

[@mulldrifterz6469]

Just call "Standard Plus" Extended lol. Extended isn't a dirty word. It's okay to bring names back, and refresh the format.

[@NecroNathancon]

Reminds me of the first Brawl tournament. The guy won by default because he was the only one to enter, it was really sad and telling.

[@danielduncan8461]

Wasn't the first Brawl tournament. We had like 70+ players at GP Vegas last year. That was Barcelona, a much smaller GP.

[@dom19945]

I like thinking of Oathbreaker as a variant of EDH. I think that's how it'll survive.

[@Robert-vk7je]

The appeal in being faster. :)

[@ashenwuss1651]

@@Robert-vk7je Faster, less random and more consistent in casual play. The consistent decks in EDH usually tutor, which is repetitive. In a smaller, similar format, decks can have more variety in the consistency. At least, that's how I feel

[@eriksonnier4526]

I agree. I have so many ideas for oathbreaker but the problem I'm having is convincing the players in my area to try oathbreaker. The scene in my area is 95% commander and none of them want to try to expand to oathbreaker. Also the trouble I see with oathbreaker is what I'm going through. What area you play in. I live in a smaller town where magic isn't that supported and here commander thrives because you don't need access to deep card pools. Where the town I moved from was much larger and had a more broad player base that supported different formats. So it's harder for me to play these other formats where I live like oathbreaker or pauper which is another format I love. Then it is in larger cituea6

[@danielduncan8461]

"Oathbreaker is way too consistent. You really think my KCI deck needs to be more consistent?" --me, talking every local player out of a crappy format

[@UninvitedGhost]

Tiny Leaders was sold as a variant of EDH...

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

I remember how Extended failed, it's just Standard but the last 4 years worth of cards. Anything that is a variant of Standard (a rotating format) that isn't normal Standard is doomed to fail as it competes with Standard, it get solved to quickly, shallow card pool. And in the case of Extended the format Modern was introduce making Extended obsolete.

[@billable1861]

That is so true

[@EdBurke37]

The new Arena format definitely needs to be called Post Modern. Then we can discuss deconstructionism and death of the author (death of the brewer?) as it applies to old standard decks.

[@emilyblue7787]

Hands down best comment here

[@matthewarnold4557]

I think thats desolater magic channel

[@donnasprague767]

Our MTG club used to play a lot of emperor, two headed giant, and Royal flush

[@Will-I-Am464]

Whats Royal flush?

[@Legacyfire]

BRAWL IS DEAD! _brawl announced for arena_ LONG LIVE BRAWL!

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

not really though. I'd argue it is still dead.

[@Legacyfire]

​@@TolarianCommunityCollege lol no I agree as well. unless they do historic mode also It would be faster to queue up for ranked heroes of the storm.

[@Small_Panda]

@@Legacyfire oh the joke of ranked hots. That game was never designed to be a large competitive. It having ranked at all always made me laugh.

[@Legacyfire]

@@Small_Panda I think the game is fun, the only problem was blizzard being owned by such a weak willed company

[@electricmayhem2010]

@@TolarianCommunityCollege Please don't say that, it makes it seem like there is no interest in the format. I'm hoping it makes a major comeback with Throne of Eldraine.

[@squdnate]

This is an interesting episode to watch now with Brawl being one of the most popular format on Arena (however would be better with multiplayer) and Oathbreaker being kinda dead

[@horserage]

Wait, oathbreaker died? How come?

[@brendancorey7831]

​@@horserage it's back again due to wizards liking it enough to support it.

[@B__C__]

Tiny Leaders' 'tiny card pool' is a mere 11,000+ cards. As a 1v1 format it leaves a lot to be desired, but as casual format for people don't have 60-120 minutes to play a commander game, it's fun.

[@Yarxov]

If you can find a group that will go with it absolutely, thats something that I hope catches on. Just because you cant walk in to a lgs doesnt mean you cant recruit your friends

[@Daybed4448]

I really like you guys' chemistry - the discussion is so organic and develops really well! I feel like I'm having a enthusiastic late night conversation.

[@MrEgomaniac]

The card frame change was in M15 I think, not Origins.

[@RoboCobeh]

Which also *was* the starting set for Frontier, which kinda makes their whole point about it moot.

[@trowawayacc]

Nice chat, guys. And i caved into oathbrker, still waiting for the first game. Also wizards has been creating oathbraker decks for several years now, the commander precons they pull out every set lend beautifully to be transformed to oathbrker, they even come its a special signature spell.

[@BohRamon]

I love brawl because I can use the cards I got from pre-release, draft or sealed. Since I dont want to play standart, becasue is too expensive, I feel this formant is perfect for me.

[@jacoblloyd2573]

The beginning explains it really well. I'm just watching for some nice commentary, and finding out about other formats I didn't know about.

[@Joker22593]

15:20 Actually, the border change was at M15 where frontier started. I still would have preferred that Frontier started at Origins.

[@gemyniraptor8626]

My play group has embraced Oathbreaker. I myself have 4 OB decks assembled, and I've loved playing what we have. Games move faster than Commander, and easier/cheaper to build. I built like 2 decks with just cards I had on hand in a couple hours.

[@roadkill291]

All this talk about successful formats I'm sad neither of you mentioned Pauper, possibly my favourite format

[@EthanBonardel]

They dont need to mention Pauper bc it isnt failing, if they mentioned it then you might have been heartbroken :)

[@nomercyformayhem4774]

It is so damn popular but it doesn‘t see enough support from WOTC

[@TheMrGazoline]

@@nomercyformayhem4774 They might be working on some pauper products, though

[@davidvonjohnston]

How my LGS was doing "Goldrush Frontier" was Tarkir w/o fetch lands. With the fetches banned, we had a similar landpool as standard now, and no specific decks really took off. My deck at the time was a Boros aggro deck with Brave the Sands to combo on Ancrop Crashers and Glorybringer. It was a fun format for me, but everyone now loves the new standard and cut it off the schedule.

[@josephs.4813]

Personally I love oathbreaker (I built 3 decks in the last month or so), and my group loves it as well. We’re playing more magic now than ever. I personally don’t think oathbreaker is dying but hey who knows.

[@TheKrismage2000]

Elucidator IV if it’s fun, just keep playing.

[@josephs.4813]

TheKrismage2000 I will 😂 that was my whole point.

[@The_Nerd_King]

0:01 - 1:10 This was so me trying to get my friends to play a game of oath breaker! And what got me, was that the dude that got me into the format didn't wanna play! Professor is on point! I wonder what would've happened if it would've gotten as popular as commander?

[@derkcast620]

Hi guys! First time long time. I love Brawl! Some reasons why: i have another reason to play with my draft cards. I DON'T have to have 3 or 4 of a card to be competitive. I feel there is some creativity in playing standard singleton. (I actually dislike Commander decks at 100) cards. Therefore Brawl at 60 card is a plus for me. Really Looking forward to playing Brawl on ARENA. My Humble Opinion...

[@papergangsters6635]

This video aged well. Now that we have Pioneer. And we still enjoy playing Tiny Leaders in South Africa.

[@mikhailpayson1274]

Bringing Brawl to MTGA WON'T save Brawl in paper, but it'll get play on Arena.

[@nitzuga8297]

I think Oathbreaker will survive if WotC releases planeswalkers for the missing combination of colors: Rainbow, Sultai, Jeskai... Also having a "restriction list" might be nice: cards that can not be played as signature spell with specific commanders(I'm looking at you, narset + windfall). However, this "restricted signature spell" should be allowed to be part of the other 58 cards. Restriction list: Narset, Parteir of Veils + Windfall Ral, Storm Conduit + Fury Storm Nicolas Bolas Dragon-God + Elder Spell

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

Actually, as I recall, Frontier did start with the border changes - the problem is the borders changed before Khans, in M15.

[@utefaninutah]

My playgroup just started playing Oathbreaker a few months ago and it's quickly become our favorite to play together. We'll even do 2HG or Emperor with the decks.

[@ctomsky]

So I think you guys recorded this before they announced that Brawl was coming to Arena, but yea, Brawl is dead. Dead dead. BUT Arena can bring it back, but only on Arena. But I really think they need to make it like Standard Plus, no rotation, just play your Arena cards for a bigger card pool and if something comes up thats problematic, ban it

[@adamhanson5565]

I intend to play Brawl in Arena. I was never interested before, but Arena is rad. I can't be the only one.

[@moxavenger]

But then they'll call it something lame like "Brawl Plus" or "Brawl Super Duper Extended Plus Mythic".

[@alfredosaint-jean9660]

Brawl with cheese.

[@moxavenger]

@@alfredosaint-jean9660 Nacho Brawl.

[@cyruseli]

Standard+ is called Historic now, and Historic Brawl is the only way to save Brawl imo.

[@KarlRoloff69]

I really loved the legacy talk! Do more of it! Ben is right that it is highly interactive with all of the best cards/answers ever made (a side from power 9). I've made my own little boutique legacy format that is more budget friendly that I play with my friends. Legacy lite I call it lol

[@RaphaelLamour]

Vince! slow down a little please. Some words simple are devoured in you crazy elegant quick speech! 😆

[@victort.2583]

"Ajani, Hero of Mentors" - you know, that name makes some sense too.

[@xchucktatorshipx]

During lunch at at TCG we've started playing oathbreaker more because we can usually get more than one game in instead of maybe finishing one game of commander

[@cjwauer4730]

Also on Kenneth and Rowen in oath breaker, The double spell rule is fine because you would need each planes walker to cast both spells out, so to get 1 casting of each you need 2 6 drops first and 2 spells extra in mediocre ramp colors without two of the best ramp cards available in the color (There is no Mana Guyser or High Tide).

[@ong5589]

I tried Baral in Brawl, not sure how people win with it lol. I love Brawl btw. Oathbreaker is not dead in my LGS tho. Every FNM there's an event and sometimes random people plays Oathbreaker from time to time.

[@TheSpikeFeeders]

What an awesome discussion. I think you both are bang-on when it comes to your hallmarks of formats that succeed and fail. This topic has been coming up quite a bit lately in the Commander community, where quite a few people seem to want the more competitive-minded players to split off and form their own format. Do you think a competitive-only version of Commander: a) Has enough of the success characteristics you talked about to survive as its own format; AND b) Solves any of the problems expressed by the people on either side of the debate?

[@mr.guizee7764]

I think it would fail. Since we have Eternal legality we are in desperate need of important reprints, especially cards from the Reserved List. It doesn't matter if WotC prints a card Modern-powerwise (Echo of Eons), the older cards will always be more powerful (Timetwister). Unless someone decides to ban those Reserved List cards (Intuition, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune and many others), players who own those cards will always have advantage. That explains the problems we already have and why cEDH has a small community: wallet restrictions, lack of diversity, lack of reprints.

[@isawamoose]

“Asparagus IPA?” My sides

[@sunseekerjules]

It is funny to watch this video a year later when Brawl and Historic Brawl are on arena and 1v1 and very popular.

[@alfredosaint-jean9660]

Calling this formats failed is strict. Tiny Leaders and Brawl were fun while they lasted, and Brawl did managed to make more people interested into Commander. Oathbreaker seems to be going the same way. As for Frontier, I don't have the info, but if it achieved to promote a game in a country were it wasn't that popular in the first place, then I call it a sucess. And they didn't even mentioned Emperor.

[@jensklingenmaier1745]

Did manage* didn't mention*...... this annoys me beyond believe

[@alfredosaint-jean9660]

@@jensklingenmaier1745 Sorry, english is a second language, I do try to improve.

[@jakeapplegate6642]

I only know one person who has ever played emperor and none of the commander players I play with have any interest in it.

[@michaeltsagaris1]

My problem with oathbreaker is that it feels like you could just add signature spells to commander, like maybe if you have a planeswalker commander you also have a signature spell.

[@Tvboy777]

Michael Tsagaris 20 life and 60 card decks are also quite different. But yeah, oathbreaker has gotten a lot of people talking about lowering the life in EDH to 30.

[@samspade313]

I recently got back into Magic after not playing it for nearly 10 years. EDH has always been my favorite format, and Arena was the reason that I came back to Magic, so hearing that Brawl is coming to Arena HOPEFULLY will be a good thing for everyone. With that being said....I'm working on building my Ninja Commander deck (Yuriko =

[@NeuroticLobster]

Sam Spade make Yuriko strong and be prepared to get hated out of every single game 3v1

[@metalvisionsongcontest7055]

15:14 The new border was not introduced in Origins, but a year earlier, in M15 - which is precisely where Frontier started.

[@crovax1375]

If Oathbreaker received support for online play it would probably flourish.

[@clauderodrigue6461]

You and PK being together is just the best. I love you guys.

[@runescapewarrior66]

I once traded a guy speculating on frontier about 100 "Rotatoes" for a savannah. Good times.

[@billable1861]

Rotatoes?

[@runescapewarrior66]

@@billable1861 PK mentioned it in the video, but just non-valuable cards that have just rotated or about to rotate.

[@matthewarnold4557]

Good cards in their standard, but not good enough for modern ie siege rhino.

[@Drow1342]

Note, I know some don't have large collections... For most formats, I build casual decks (brew types) through competitive deck... a good example is my commander deck collection... 8 decks that very from janky fun decks to combo "let's go infinit" ... if I'm sitting down with random people for a pickup game I'll play something more mid range and grab a decks that will match that tables meta... but if I'm going to a tournament, I expect to see competitive decks so I decide weather I want to be competitive or just play for fun ... I don't get bent if my fun deck gets crushed by competitive decks because I chose to play the deck.

[@magicnexus9383]

We want EXTENDED (T1.X) back! It's the perfect format now that could be used very well back!

[@strawberriemars]

Commander allows for such weird and wonderful theming I feel. I have a deck that started as being based around the Nicol Bolas cards (with the commander being the transforming one from M19), but expanded as I built it into something that somehow encompasses all sorts of villainous traits. The black cards focus on everything graveyards (necromancy), all the blue stuff is about counters and looking at my deck (foiling "the heroes" plans and "cheating" by looking ahead), and the red is all creatures that are beefy or hasty or both and land removal (big bumbling mooks wrecking everything). I LOVE the challenge of finding cards that gel with one another, building win-cons, and I like to go the extra mile of buying those little boxes you assemble yourself - it lets me personalize the deck further by writing and drawing on the boxes whatever the colors and commander are. I'm newer to the game, so the only format I'm familiar with as far as the dying ones is brawl. I thought in theory it sounded neat, but if I really want to play essentially a rapid-fire commander game, I'll play Force of Will. Oathbreaker sounds really promising though, especially because I think making a deck centered around the newer Ashiok and their milling ability would be SO much fun. I have never been more delighted by people hating me than when I use Ashiok in standard games.

[@RPG_Bliss]

I much prefer oath breaker over commander. Oath breaker has only 60 cards (easier upkeep and less money, easy shuffling), 20 HP (means faster games), and the signature spell combo is interesting. Oath breaker is my go to multiplayer format so it will keep living on my kitchen table. I think it's an excellent casual format.

[@pphyjynx8217]

Am i the only person that actually prefers a longer game of commander to the shorter ones of oathbreaker?

[@RPG_Bliss]

@@pphyjynx8217 I think most people like the longer version.

[@TheMrGazoline]

@@pphyjynx8217 I was okay with long games until I had my first deck, which basically just prolonged the games without even being stax.

[@7MukuroRealm]

Seems to me that you just never liked Commander to begin with considering all your notes against it are things that define the format.

[@RPG_Bliss]

@@7MukuroRealm It was very fun at first, but now I prefer oathbreaker

[@xxcatfishjohnnyxx]

As someone who played MTG in my youth, returned in Core 13 to a small casual draft / cube group, and grew as a player largely through the commander format over the years, I absolutely love Brawl as it keeps me up to date with the current card sets and has recently given me the confidence as a player to join drafts outside of my usual play group (for the first time) by learning the cards through a format familiar to my upbringing in the Commander format. It's changed how seclusive my play was until it came on the scene. I would be sad to see this format disappear, but hell is it hard to find a game.

[@megagame]

I hope when they put brawl on MTGA, they makes it so you can play it in 2 versions, standard brawl and historic brawl.

[@danielduncan8461]

You are the reason Brawl died.

[@theREALDonkeyKong957]

@@danielduncan8461 how is he the reason it's dead, it would be the only way to bring it to life lmao

[@danielduncan8461]

Too many people tried to change the format, so no one was playing the same game. Wizards is trying to give it life, but people like you are still gocused on changing it.

[@Lotties_handsaw]

It's so surreal watching this from 2021.talking about frontier failing when we have pioneer, and Vince sounding so incredulous about standard bans

[@modernminded5466]

But isn't Pioneer basically dead? I haven't seen anybody talking about it for months.

[@TheBigJConYouTube]

Oathbreaker isn't going anywhere, at least not from my area.

[@stormcry0]

That's exactly what TinyLeaders players said.

[@Dyllrboy]

It’s what tiny leaders players said and a year later no one played

[@gordonross3270]

I never see anyone play oathbreaker.

[@codyprice9621]

Oathbreaker is fun to play in between commander games, I like it because it IS a very degenerate format.

[@rayzoid]

The card border changed with M15, which was also - not coincidentally - the starting point of Frontier. Seeing as it's looking like there won't be any reason to play Arena's nonrotating format in paper, with a much bigger card pool than when it started, maybe it's time for Frontier to make a comeback.

[@piemaster831]

I think brawl would have been a good format if they were actually ready to support it in arena and paper and ban baral early.

[@electricmayhem2010]

Well good thing they are doing that now

[@timbusbee1483]

Thank you guys! I definitely enjoy the accuracy of your facts with these formats. I’m finding factual accuracy being more of an issue the more I delve into MTG content creators.

[@pugs8900]

If I may present some constructive criticism; I feel this discussion could have benefited and improved by being less informal. I appreciated the prof. attempting to first address the perimeters of what constitutes a dying format before listing examples of formats that have died/ dying. Arguably, there were too many asides and too many moments where a person *cough* Kenobi *cough* talked over the other person only to distract from the contention being made. Regardless, some good points were made. Keep up the good work.

[@fanatix6982]

second this

[@theofftaskforce6546]

Disagree completely. Script reading on a live rec is boring

[@fanatix6982]

@@theofftaskforce6546 you obviously don't seem to know the difference between "script reading" and having a concept and some politeness.

[@pugs8900]

@@theofftaskforce6546 I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting a script, just less asides. I'm fully in support of an open discussion, but personally, I expect a certain level of professionalism from the Professor. I don't want to be overly critical. To be fair, I think Kenobi's jet-lag meant that they had less time to prepare and/ or made it difficult to concentrate on wrapping up a point before moving on to the next. Kenobi was also very excited and I think we can all relate to squeezing in our thoughts when we're excited to share them even if our timing is a bit off.

[@UltimatePokemonFan75]

They could reprint the reserve list through standard packs. Either Masterpieces or a guaranteed reserve list card in each pack. They could say that they are not legal in standard as well as they did with the guild kits and previous masterpieces.

[@mtgsykotic3142]

Oathbreaker is great. I do budget deck techs and interest is still growing not shrinking. With ppl like you supporting it oathbreaker can become the next commander. I'm gonna stream games live and people seem to want to see it grow.

[@danielduncan8461]

It's certainly not shrinking. I can't leave a trash format that no one wants to play.

[@suudsuu]

Given how this vid was recorded shortly before MaRo's Project Booster Fun and Gavin Verhey's A New Era of Brawl, I would love to get Prof and Vince's take on that new information.

[@melonboi927]

Oath-breaker is different from tiny leaders, brawl, and frontier. I believe it has the potential to become a staying format

[@gordonross3270]

But its the same, the restrictions mean there are too few viable decks.

[@thrash208]

I think it has potential for sure but I think it ran the risk of kinda being ahead of its time. There was roughly 40 planeswalkers when the format first hit the scene. And many weren't really viable commanders. The interest faded but carpool increased. In a few years I think it could make a solid, lasting comeback.

[@Knikon79]

As a person who played casual magic for years and who never played in a tournament I could not understand why extended died as a format. If you have an evergreen format eventually cost is going to be prohibitive after a certain point and the cost is going to keep getting worse and worse. To me as a non tournament player extended solved both of the problems that formats like standard (which rotate out to fast to some for the cost) and an evergreen format like modern (where the cards never rotate out). The cards do rotate out, but they do not rotate out quickly so you feel like you are you are getting something for the money that will not rotate out in a year. Keep in mind that I only ever played casual magic and have no tournament experience, so there might be problems with extended that I simply do not understand. I just do not understand why a format were the cards rotate out, but do not do it quickly would be a failed format that was not popular.

[@TrentSSB]

Vince playing Canlander? I'd love to see that on his stream at some point

[@piemaster831]

He has a bunch of videos on his yt channel

[@RuneKing324]

The new border design came out in m15 and was also the idea for frontier. They stated that in the original blog post introducing it

[@CaptainUrielVentris7]

As much as I prefer the expansive and diverse options of mainstream commander I think Brawl's Standard cycle limitations will keep the power ceiling (and the price ceiling) lower and prevent the massive disparities commander has. I hate being limited to a narrow selection of cards but being able to play against a random without fear that I crush his precon or he has a foodchain Prossh is a tempting prospect.

[@FaeDead]

At around 15:30 you mentioned that frontier should have started when the released the new border just like modern released with 8th edition border. But you thought the new border was released in origin. Actually frontier did start when they launched the new border and the legality was cards with new border, just the border came out earlier than you thought and came out in m15. Right before khans block.

[@omgoblins]

I think we've all seen Brawl die, now it's been given second life by WotC and we will see... The upside is the new precons (and Brawl designed cards). Can it do what they did for Commander? It's unlikely since EDH had demand before the precons, whereas the current demand for Brawl is nil. Either way I think it's going to be a hit on Arena, because we really do love singleton and it's all we have. I won't feel like I'm wasting my money like on paper cards that rotate.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

Second life? Brawl never had a life to begin with.

[@charleslawrenzambas2370]

I'll be honest and say.. Multiplayer or bust for me

[@MJBrown901]

I think it's because commander is popular because of the product. You get lots of rares, some foils, and usually a great out of the box playing product for a decent price. In order for a format like oath breaker or brawl to be successful they'd need a team dedicated to making a good product that has a great price to compete with the established product that precon commander decks provide.

[@Twitchx89]

"Brawl is failing" 1 year later, playing Brawl on Arena daily.. Paper Brawl though, confirmed dead..

[@chrisessick7192]

Yeah brawl is fun as fuck on arena, especially to get a fresh taste instead of standard.

[@SickOfItAll1988]

@@chrisessick7192 this exactly, way more divers decks & I'm able to play 2-3 working decks without spending money I definetly don't have

[@joshuacarder9891]

When you talk about Frontier starting with the foil at the bottom of the card, I believe that was Magic 2015 Core Set - which means the Khan's Block fetchlands would be legal.

[@ArchonTimatron]

I personally like a bit of Brawl, but I use it as an opportunity to get some play from fringe legends. Currently I'm playing Izoni.

[@JeanValjean875]

I love your podcast. One suggestion I would have is to make sure you briefly define MTG words or terms so everyone is on the same page. If you would just taken a minute to explain what the different formats are before introducing each one it would have made this a lot easier to follow.

[@Jonius]

"Standard Plus" has already been officially called Historic and will start from the Ixalan Block (i.e. current Standard), for now. Did they miss it? The announcement was before M20.

[@Small_Panda]

This was most likely filmed before those announcements.

[@DualSwordBesken]

They recorded multiple episodes over a handful of days when Vince visited the Prof, at this point that was over a month ago, and before historic was officially announced.

[@NecromancyForKids]

There is a note about that in the video itself. You must not have been watching the video.

[@The5lacker]

15:20 something to note, the new border was implemented in M15, not Origins, which means the starting point of the new border would include the Fetches. Which... is a problem, because the Fetchlands are bonkers powerful and warp basically every format they're in, as you guys mentioned.

[@Duskmantle0110]

Oathbreaker may have a different "definition" for some people since for example my lgs plays oathbreaker as a one v one best of three format with sideboards and such, and it is an enjoyable format

[@LithmusEarth]

I learned about some new formats. It was a solid discussion, and yeah the "Dominant Strategy" happens in every game, the other one i can think of is multiplayer and wizards of the coast ran, Dungeons and Dragons, does have that as well. God I do so love that game.

[@PiroMunkie]

Not gonna lie. Vince looks greenscreened into the video.

[@firstandlast.1254]

Lol i read this right at 28:05 when it cuts back to PK, looks completely like he's greenscreened in.

[@supertaft77]

He definitely moves around more than the prof

[@_donny_9473]

Dies to removal has become one of my favorite KZbin series , thank you guys!