Tolkien and Christianity: A Conspiracy Unmasked

[@kelpietales4503]

This is just sad a guy can't get over that a Christian writer wrote a successful series that had elements of his faith incorporated into it. God help him.

[@jonathanbowling2904]

I think this guy has an ax to grind and needs to seek counseling to deal with his issues.

[@dancreary3340]

Look at him and tell me there's a God!

[@MyReligionIs2DoGood]

I'm an atheist, but the facts are pretty clear. There's no denying it: LotR was heavily influenced by religion. It's really pathetic to deny the influences of religion - or any other ideology a writer may have - on their work. However, I don't personally care what might have influenced an artist - if it's good, it's good. In this case, it's great!

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

It's like saying that his friend C.S. Lewis’ The Chronicles of Narnia isn't Christian.

[@johansvanborg5870]

Wait until he realises everything written in the 80:s or earlier is written by pepole that would be considered racist now.

[@donaldw3231]

Tolkien: "this story has Christian inspiration and themes." SJWs: "wrong, it's actually gay. Everything is gay."

[@GreenTomas2372]

Also SJW's: "Tolkien is a segregationist because he didn't have enough characters with dark skin"

[@donaldw3231]

@@GreenTomas2372 they can't decide whether to cancel Tolkien or say he was on their side. Either way, they'll lie about him.

[@dannysummers4591]

@@donaldw3231 SJWs do the same thing with the Bible, one minutes its the communist manifesto, the next minute they feel the need to rewrite it

[@miscielrossvillegas6307]

I swear to god the "Everything is gay" mindset is making me homophobic as in "These gay people annoy me"-kind of homophobic

[@ranchoth]

It's kind of like Chekov from TOS, really. "Is a Russian inwention!"

[@baddragonite]

The man literally played a major role in the conversion of C.S. Lewis to Christianity and that dude is one of the most influential Christian writers of all time.

[@sirpepeofhousekek6741]

@Sottunar C.S. Lewis converted to agnosticism and stopped believing in God after fighting in World War 1. You're actually both right.

[@mjbull5156]

Tolkien wrote that he was disappointed that Lewis stopped at Anglicanism and did make it all the way to Catholicism.

[@JasperLane]

So your saying that Tolkin is responsible for creating Jesus's fursona?

[@vonfaustien3957]

@@JasperLane yes J RR Tolkien caused Jesus to become a furry

[@AlexanderCheff]

@@JasperLane Yes, but please never say that again.

[@sokandueler9578]

“Tolkien wasn’t Christian” The dude was so hardcore catholic that he refused and rebelled against the move to bring English into the liturgy and continued to do his liturgy in Latin whilst everyone else was speaking English. You can’t tell me the dude wasn’t committed to his faith.

[@Cairo40000]

Why do people keep saying his time in WW1 inspired his books instead of his Catholic beliefs? Tolkien stated multiple times that it was the exact opposite.

[@juliaj7939]

@@Cairo40000 I believe Sam was inspired by Tolkien's friends in the trenches.

[@Cairo40000]

@@juliaj7939 I know but Tolkien barely used his time in WW1 to write his book apart from that and some battles.

[@WatersAbove77]

@@Cairo40000 pretty sad they didn’t put much emphasis on his faith in the new tolkien movie. Does him injustice to not include much if any at all of his greatest influence (Christianity).

[@rockyblacksmith]

@@Cairo40000 Tolkien had a myriad of inspirations. His impressions of WW1 definetly were an inspiration (though, and this is the claim he rejected, it wasn't the two conflicting sides of the conflict that inspired the sides of his fictional conflict). If anything, the lingering impact of war on one's psyche is clearly mirrored in Frodos character. Another, hugely important influence was his faith. As was his knownledge of languages (his whole endeavour of creating a world started as a vessel for is constructed languages). Then there are the various mythologies he drew from (with some being overtly referenced, such as half of the dwarven names coming directly from the nordic Edda and The Hobbit incorporating numerous elements from Beowulf), as well as more recent classical literature (compare Eowyn's killing of the witch king to the death of Macbeth) And very importantly, he used his own love story as inspiration for the tale of Beren and Luthien, which was the heart of his whole legendarium. It is this variety of influences that makes his mythology so rich.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

Tolkien was so hardcore Catholic that he spoke fluent Latin with priests

[@Merry19ss]

Exacto,🤲 Tolkien sabia hablar latín fluidamente ,bueno todos los Cristianos Catolicos Romanos desde bisabuelos hasta abuelos y bueno hasta hoy se sabe habalr en latín ,cuando cambiaron la gnete sigue con el latín

[@SkullyTheHypnoSkull]

I have the Bible Tolkein helped translate, and I'm an atheist.

[@Timasion]

The idea that Tolkien wasn't Catholic is so ridiculous almost to be laughable. C.S. Lewis credits Tolkien in convincing Lewis to become Christian. When they met, Lewis wasn't a Christian, but became friends with Tolkien and later converted. This is pretty awful. Edit: Never mind, this guy wrote an article where he's upset that they don't portray CS Lewis as gay in a movie.

[@kojoarmah3915]

@@2st_duallist why do you say that?

[@dizzydoom4230]

I thought C.S. Lewis became an Anglican, not a Catholic.

[@gabrielrasilva]

He is catholic not cristhian

[@johnmcnichol9083]

@@gabrielrasilva Catholics are the original Christians. Nice try. :)

[@rosskwolfe]

@@dizzydoom4230 He did, and Tolkien was actually upset about that. Not angry, but he'd been trying to convert him to Catholicism so he was happy he became Christian but disappointed it wasn't the Catholic church.

[@Razer5542]

"Evil cannot create, only corrupt" - Tolkien.

[@EnsignRedshirtRicky]

...and Palpatine.

[@庫倫亞利克]

@@EnsignRedshirtRicky When did Palps say that...? Also didn't Plagueis and Palpatine manipulate the Force itself to create Anakin? Seems like the Dark Side is more virile than the light side actually.

[@HotZetiGer]

The Ring was created by Good - directed by Robert B.Weide

[@b.melakail]

Certain agendas today that can only try reestablish long time characters

[@mr_indie_fan]

Yeah it corrupted lord of the rings cause look at the rings of power......

[@ottobaron6392]

Being a Catholic was so important to Tolkein, that he was disappointed that when he played a part in his friend C.S. Lewis converting from being an Atheist to a Christian, he couldn't get him to also be a Catholic. They still remained friends.

[@jamiemezs9891]

This something that I never heard before and I like it

[@njyankeesfan]

Also, when the liturgy of the Catholic Church changed after the Second Vatican Council, Tolkien refused to do the responses in English, always responding in Latin as was tradition before V2 since the Mass was always in Latin before it changed to the common language.

[@segundajuganda]

@@njyankeesfan yep Tolkien was def more traditional catholic himself, than current Pope... And nowadays mainstream hate catholic ppl, especially traditional ones.

[@bubblehead4270]

@@jamiemezs9891 The funny thing is, CS Lewis had Catholic beliefs and people who study it view it as kind of odd lol. He went to confessions regularly and believed in purgatory and that he was destined to be there. There are other examples, but these were just a few.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

@@bubblehead4270 He was Catholic in everything but name, which is really funny. It seems the only reason he chose Anglicanism was because he was obsessed with monarchy

[@rovhalt6650]

If this guy has a problem with Christianity being the foundation of good writing, imagine his reaction when he finds out our western democracies and 2000 years of history are revolving around the bible.

[@mint5438]

As Christian myself, I agree. And also believe that that is a _very_ "not good" thing. But it's the truth.

[@FeralColumbidae]

I'd argue that the foundations of democratic governments and western society are more attributed to pre-Christian Greece and Rome, if anything. The cities of Athens and Rome being the foundation of how we define Democracy and the Republic respectively.

[@honeyjm8324]

@@FeralColumbidae but most of not all laws of man take the same shape as the commandments

[@FeralColumbidae]

@@honeyjm8324 Not really true, considering how basic and widespread 'Christian' morality was before its inception. People have been telling each other not to kill, rape and steal from each other. It didn't start with Christianity and it doesn't require Christianity to happen on its own.

[@007GoldenLion]

Yeah like the dark ages right

[@briang3598]

"Their tradition has no fun books" >Christian writer writes fun, Christianity-influenced book "That book isn't Christian-influenced"

[@dmitritelvanni4068]

Well... influence wise no. The influence of paganism in his world building is literally in every tree and stone. Every other fucking Dwarven name is straight outta Norse myth. Don't deny reality to make your point. You only make the whole argument look stupid. The narrative is Christian. Not the influence. The influence is predominantly pagan and Tolkien makes no secret of that. He discusses it in multiple essays; Chiefly "on fairy stories".

[@briang3598]

@@dmitritelvanni4068 He also didn't view it as co-opting pagan influence, bur rather, de-bastardizing what was once Christian to begin with.

[@dmitritelvanni4068]

@@briang3598 wait wtf are you talking about? Are you trying to imply Christianity predates pagan symbolism and themes? Dude you're off your rocker lol. All of those themes were bastardized BY Christians and were pagan in origin.... like 90% of Christianity. The timeline is pretty consistent here lol. What christ did in the Roman empire had 0 impact on the oral traditions eventually written down centuries later by Christians, and often given something of a twist to tie it Into Christian mythos. Not sure how the original language and tales are somehow bastardized from a religion that hadn't even existed yet... It's not as Tolkien was some kind of fundamentalist history denier lol. That's pure projection my good sir. In fact catholicism came to prominence mainly through by taking the place of pagan scribes that recorded history before them... Catholics were the OG historians of the post Roman world. And Tolkien was no exception.

[@BlindBosnian]

@@dmitritelvanni4068 Excellently said. Also, LotR is filled to the brim with pagan elements and motifs, irrelevant of the fact if Tolkien put them in intentionally or not.

[@Y-two-K]

The atheist equivalent of "You ain't black"

[@arunmorace1136]

I'm not a religious person but I had an easy time writing a paper in high school on LOTR and its obvious Christian elements. Not everything you enjoy has to be 100% something you identify with on a personal level, nor do you need to change things to fit your views.

[@calummacritchie7840]

Christian here. Tolkien was never fond of allegory so he wrote the story to appeal to a broad audience whilst still implementing his Catholic beliefs in their when he thought seemed suitable. He strongly beleived his saga and all the stories that inspired it pointed towards a grand narrative of significance.

[@johnduquette7023]

@@calummacritchie7840 Yeah I remember getting in an argument with a professor (community college) over this. Tolkien despised allegory because, to paraphrase, he resented the guiding hand of the author. He much preferred applicability, which is a feature of mythology rather than pointed polemic. The One Ring was not the atomic bomb, but the lessons of the One Ring apply to the atomic bomb, and any other object of power.

[@TheAdarkerglow]

“No, you’re all racists who want to claim it’s Christian so you can exclude homosexuals and trans people and people of color!!” I’m sure they would say. Maybe a reee as well.

[@cbeaudry4646]

In addition to disliking allegory in favor of history, it's also worth noting that Tolkien wrote these to be literal myths for a Christian England; a mythological pre-Christian historically-forgotten England. So, it is supposed to pre-date Christianity, and therefore avoids all overtly Christian things, while still embodying Christianity

[@mactony4]

I did the same but with his experience in WW1.

[@BakuGone]

Imagine reading neither Tolkien nor the Bible and then trying to be an "expert" on both, absolutely hilarious

[@pittland44]

That's borderline psychotic.

[@Stale_Buns]

These people have a lot of opinions and zero brains

[@pittland44]

@@flonoiisana4647 I don't think that's restricted to one age bracket or another. I argue with plenty of Boomers and Gen Xers that do the exact same thing.

[@BakuGone]

@@flonoiisana4647 I'm actually gen z, but I'm aware the vast majority of my peers are what can best be described as "retarded"

[@samuelzuleger5134]

@@flonoiisana4647 Nah...that's University-educated Lib Arts majors.

[@crimsonpotemkin]

Activist: *Writes article* Reader: "You're wrong, here's why" Activist: "You saying that I'm wrong proves that I'm right. I win, bye bye"

[@ironbaysqiureg4827]

"You magnificent bastard I read your book"

[@dislike_button33]

I've seen that argument on Twitter way too many times.

[@ltb1345]

That's how it is every time.

[@Ceyx000]

"Like playing Chess with Pigeons."

[@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself]

Replace "Activist" with "Religious Apologist," and it's the same scene.

[@kettch777]

J.R.R. Tolkien was a Christian theologian before he was an author. That is provable fact, as is the fact he was good friends with C.S. Lewis. Anyone who has read the Silmarillion and the creation story of Middle-earth knows Tolkien was both a believer and incorporated that into his work. As for the Sam-Frodo and Legolas-Gimli thing, it was a different time. A time when a man saying he loved another man wasn't automatically assumed to be romantic, sexual love, but was understood to be an unadded "as if he were my brother" on the end.

[@ironwraith852]

It’s possible to tell people that you love them. I don’t get why that’s so hard to understand. People say “I love you, man.” All the time. I’ve never heard anyone say that’s gay.

[@ikreer9777]

Lewis credits Tolkien and another member of the Inklings with leading him to Christ. And if you really want to see the Christian themes built into Middle-Earth, read The Silmarillion. Personally, I feel that although Tolkien did not write a direct allegory to Christianity, his faith was so deeply embedded within him he could not help but use those concepts and influences in his work.

[@ironwraith852]

@@ikreer9777 ah yes, JRR Tolkien. My favorite Character from Splatoon.

[@DreamingDarlin]

@@ironwraith852 Fan girls delight in writing romances between Aragorn and Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir, particularly after Aragorn's kiss of brotherly love on the forehead after Boromir died valiantly. The same goes for Frodo and Sam as well as Frodo and his cousins, Merry and Pippen.

[@Rakotino]

Does Silmarillion cover the creation of middle earth? I am a Christian who is thinking about reading all lotr books and then Silmarillion. I have already read the Hobbit.

[@Digganob590]

“Their tradition has no fun books.” Apparently, he has never heard of C.S.Lewis.

[@Nosliw837]

Or The Bible

[@shanestevens5352]

Or Lord of the Rings

[@TheKnoxvicious]

Paradise lost? Faust? Dante’s Inferno? Even Uncle Toms Cabin. Many great works where Christianity is HEAVY

[@M.G.2000]

The Divine Comedy: *Superman theme*

[@IrishIronArmalite]

As a devout Catholic and longtime fan of Tolkien, with a deep deep love of my faith and high fantasy I’m general, I really appreciate the fact that so many non-Christians still recognize the deep Christian themes of Tolkien’s work. God Bless you!

[@TheRisky9]

I don't call them "non-Christians". I call them fellow adorers of truth.

[@valentinepavliuchenko7309]

I don't see why the religious undertones have to make me admire Tolkien's works less. It's not like he's proselytizing and trying to convert me, it's not like it detracts from the story or worldbuilding in any way. So what's the big deal? Here's a big secret (not) - atheists can enjoy mythological narratives perfectly well, belief in them is not a requirement.

[@AllKnowingNick]

@@valentinepavliuchenko7309 Totally agree, as an atheist myself I really don't care if something was made by a Christian or has a connection with Christianity or any other religion, it's not like I won't like Bach or Tolkien or literally any person living in Europe throughout history just because they were Christians, religion is a completely personal thing and it is nonsensical to make it a criticism for art, if anything religions around the world no matter their flaws had a mostly very good effect on art, be it music, literature, or any other form.

[@TheRisky9]

@Skelley Not necessarily. The truth isn't always easy to recognize and come to a full concensus.

[@VindensSaga]

As a Christian, I want to remind my brothers and sisters in the faith that we shouldn't try to convince any atheist to change their view on god or religion. That's not our calling or duty, our duty as christians are to behave with understanding and act on love, forcing people to change is not love but malice. if someone (like an atheist) insult (belite or ridicule) and mock you for being a believer that's on them, not you. Just pity them and go about your day.

[@fruhmann]

"Maybe Tolkien had to lie to his friend because he feared retribution from that friend and the community" is the biggest projection of the whole article. I'd even go as far to say it's a cry for help.

[@baronkarza2939]

Reminds me of what happened to Lindsay Ellis Fucking hilarious

[@ThreeSkullOrthodox]

That was the weirdest sentence of the whole article. If Tolkien was pretending to be religious why wouldn’t he have been Protestant, seeing as England has traditionally not been very fond of Catholics.

[@kungfuskull]

@@baronkarza2939 I feel I'm going to regret asking, but what happened? I've only vaguely paid any attention to her over the years.

[@baronkarza2939]

@@kungfuskull She compared the last airbender to Raya and the last dragon twitter flipped its shit It got so bad she left the internet

[@kungfuskull]

@@baronkarza2939 thank you for the reply; I actually have no idea what Raya is, and I don't think I need to know or give a damn 🙂 but it was interesting nonetheless. And what DOESNT twitter freak out about? 🙄

[@brianensign7638]

It’s almost like this dude just really wants to hate Christianity, and for some reason can’t stomach the fact that something he hates might have inspired something awesome.

[@louiscypher4186]

Considering it took me 4 minutes to find a letter he wrote to a fan asking about froddo failing and Tolkien literally responses by referencing the bible, I think it's pathological. _26 July 1956 Draft of letter to Miss J. Burn_ _If you re-read all the passages dealing with Frodo and the Ring, I think you will see that not only was it quite impossible for him to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at its point of maximum power, but that this failure was adumbrated from far back. He was honoured because he had accepted the burden voluntarily, and then had done all that was within his utmost physical and mental strength to do. He (and the Cause) were saved - by mercy: by the supreme value and efficacy of Pity and forgiveness of injury._ _Corinthians I x. 12-13 may not at first sight seem to fit (“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”) - unless “bearing temptation” is taken to mean resisting it while still a free agent in normal command of the will. I think rather of the mysterious last petitions of the Lord’s Prayer: Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. A petition against something that cannot happen is unmeaning. There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one’s power. In which case (as I believe) salvation from ruin will depend on something apparently unconnected: the general sanctity (and humility and mercy) of the sacrificial person. I did not “arrange” the deliverance in this case: it again follows the logic of the story. (Gollum had had his chance of repentance, and of returning generosity with love; and had fallen off the knife-edge). In the case of those who now issue from prison “brainwashed”, broken, or insane, praising their torturers, no such immediate deliverance is as a rule to be seen. But we can at least judge them by the will and intentions with which they entered the Sammath Naur; and not demand impossible feats of will, which could only happen in stories unconcerned with real moral and mental probability_

[@brianensign7638]

@@louiscypher4186 Great find. I wish I could better understand the mindset that is so averse to just admitting the obvious fact that Tolkien was a devout Catholic and that this heavily influenced his writing. Why is that so distasteful to some people? Is it because they despise Catholicism, and that they just prefer to think it's impossible for a Catholic to produce something they like? Is it the disruption of this binary worldview that is so uncomfortable? Do they think that acknowledging the Christian themes of Middle-Earth somehow requires them to be Christian in order to appreciate its artistic merit, and even enjoy it? Do they not know that you don't have to be swallow Tolkien's religion hook, line, and sinker in order to appreciate how much it inspired his work? Understanding people's motivations is very important to me. This one has me stumped. If anybody has any insight on this, please clue me in.

[@helives2630]

@@brianensign7638 they despise Jesus. That's all.

[@Melodyofthesea78]

@Brian Ensign That's something I'll never understand they hate religion in general but they especially hate Christians and Catholics. I've been told by someone that if it was up to them we'd all be burning.....very progressive of them huh?

[@LordInquisitor701]

I think it’s more fear the very concept of a higher power terrifies him A higher power that will judge him regardless of who his family is or how much power he has on earth he be judge just like everyone else

[@joelkurowski7129]

"The Lord of the Rings is a profoundly Catholic work" -Tolkien

[@Merry19ss]

Yes🤲Deus Vult

[@WatersAbove77]

Lol

[@trobertw]

Is there a recording of this comment?

[@tropik5724]

More Pagan stuff than Christian stuff in his books.

[@philipb7400]

@@tropik5724 the morality and messages of the story are very Christian though.

[@ianshaliczer]

“[Christianity] has no fun books.” Tell me you never read anything written before 1980 without telling me you never read anything written before 1980.

[@brendancoulter5761]

Tolkien was super hard core Catholic. He was raised by a priest. He wrote letters to his family and was very open about his faith. He is one of the reasons CS Lewis became Christian. To claim he was secretly not a Christian is to say everything we know about him is a lie, and everything he said about himself is a lie, and all of the themes clearly present in his books are also lies. Was this article written by Wormtongue?

[@thstroyur]

Suppose the entertainment industry is King Theoden...

[@noahdoyle6780]

Yes.

[@colinsanders9397]

It was indeed, and Amazon Media is Kind Theodin. Alas, I fear it is too late for them.

[@Kryynism]

Reworking history is the fruit of satanic communists. Live long enough, pay attention, and you see it happen in live-action. Every revolution from these people starts with the destruction of and reworking of history. They come for our histories, myths, religions, statues, institutions, scientific understanding of the world, and more. This is just another step towards destruction of western european culture like everything else they push towards.

[@brendancoulter5761]

@@jannguerrero They can try, the guys is about as spotless as they come, the openly angle they really have to attack him his the fact that he was Catholic, and that does not wokify him.

[@gleeman959]

This guy exemplies nearly every other writer in Hollywood these day. He doesn't get subtlety. None of them do. It's why when they write their stories with "themes", it's just smacking us in the face with a bible of woke.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Also explains why they can't write realistic dialogue if their lives depended on it.

[@Hero_Of_Old]

They have no inner monologue. They don't get nuance.

[@MALICEM12]

They know, they just don't care. This is a war, they aren't stupid they just are hoping you think they are merely stupid as they destroy your culture.

[@marvalice3455]

a work doesn't need to be subtle to be good. most anime is about as subtle as a train crash, but subtlety is one of the defining factors of english and American prose. not getting it in our culture is extremely sad.

[@MrSilentProtagonist]

The premise of Death of the Author dooms fiction to be as explicit as possible about the message otherwise someone would crucify the author for believes that they don't actually hold. I think that Tolkien's problem with allegory is how it doesn't make sense in the context of the world of the story. Why is Superman protesting about Climate Change if he (and many other people) can do something about it?

[@Nite-Mite]

"Christians have a long history of trying to claim LOTR as basically a Christian text." Right, because it's not like liberals lately have been trying to claim it as a woke text instead.

[@shinigamimiroku3723]

@@greatclubsandwich5612 "Evil is a parasite." - Lewis

[@vngelicath1580]

@@greatclubsandwich5612 Explains what these types have done to an overwhelming number of franchises in the past years.

[@Javin007]

The dude's ENTIRE channel is centered around trying to claim EVERYTHING as "Queer".

[@paulharris8539]

Frank Sherbert, in the case of the original The Lord of the Rings by Tolkien, he ISN'T. He is only stating that Amazon's variant IS Woke because it basically is. What Tolkien made wasn't Woke, nor is JustSomeGuy trying to claim it is. Get your head out of your arse, please.

[@paulharris8539]

@Javin007, JustSOmeGuy's channel isn't... Thanks for showing your lack of knowledge.

[@LordEsel88]

I'm not Christian, but I would never deny that Tolkien wrote his books with Christian themes. His books are amazing and it's not possible to remove those Christian themes without destroying his beautiful stories.

[@peachesandcream8753]

"But Christian men tend to like Tolkien. Their tradition has no fun books..." This man clearly has no idea about how fun bibles looked in the early Medieval in England with illuminated manuscripts that take your breath away, or the countless amounts of fiction from England during the Georgian, Victorian and Edwardian eras that take inspiration from Christianity. Most of the works from the Medieval leading up to the end of the Edwardian era were written by Christians so, arguably, I can say that all of those books are part of the tradition of Christianity thus debunking his assertion that Christians have no fun books.

[@toledochristianmatthew9919]

Not to mention all the arts, paintings, and architectures of Christian themes and stories that are still popular today.

[@silvernova354]

I wonder what Tolkien himself would think about the opinions of all these great scholars who obviously know more about his own work than he did. He probably wouldn't be able to let us know his thoughts, because he would have been previously cancelled for some reason.

[@jaystrickland4151]

I wouldn't call him a scholar by a long shot. I do not think he even has a bachelors. He most certainly has not been trained in anything requiring research.

[@silvernova354]

@@jaystrickland4151 Indeed. I should have put quotation marks around the words "great scholars".

[@dermotmcquaid3692]

UNRELATED: Hello there! How are you mate?! Haven't seen you on MEAD for a while! Been busy at work????

[@silvernova354]

@Always Plotting Yes - it was definitely sarcasm.

[@silvernova354]

@@dermotmcquaid3692 Yeah mate, very busy - good to see ya.

[@thegreywanderer8427]

J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Thankfully so; his faith in God no doubt shielded his mental health from the horrors of World War I, as he experienced those as a soldier in the trenches. Without his faith the world might have missed a lot; no Hobbit, no Lord of the Rings, no Silmarillion and no effects of these on the evolution of fantasy literature.

[@TSPH1992]

J.R.R. is a Catholic I respect

[@jonathanbowling2904]

Tolkien didn't want to beat people over the head with his Catholic Faith with his Fantasy writing, but it is there. And it's why so many people from different backgrounds and beliefs love his work.

[@lupusnotte3235]

Trust me it’s a good thing, because no one wants to be preached to, especially those who are not willing to listen to or want anything to do with Christianity, mostly because while it is a religion, like all religions, it has its ups… and it’s stupid beliefs and moral failings, because humans evolved to fuck everything up

[@Kharmazov]

True considering that the Silmarilion was published after his death.

[@SuperEndiku]

The morality of LotR is entirely inspired by Christian theology and faith. And this is true of much if not most Western authors writing heroic stories. There is a reason western stories follow similar themes that are not found in the stories of other cultures. It's why these people want to conquer and subvert these stories so badly.

[@jonathanbowling2904]

@@SuperEndiku Oh I definitely agree with your comment Daniel. But the LOTR wasn't a complete 1-for-1 metaphor for Christianity. You see many influences in the work including Tolkien's love of Languages, the Hiking Journey he made with his childhood friends, his experiences in WWI in the Somme, and many folklore such as the German Der Ring des Nibelungen (The Ring of Nibelung). I agree that Christianity is one of the main Keystones in his writings (fiction and nonfiction) but LOTR is a tale woven with his Faith, his experiences, and his personal loves, rather than a Complete Metaphor for his faith. At least that's my takeaway. But I also think people like this writer do have some irrational desire to wipe away Tolkien's faith, and the part Christianity played in his stories. All the best to you!

[@some_otaku_nerd6546]

It's closer to this: Lewis made an allegory in Narnia, while Tolkien simply drew inspiration from the christian worldview as a whole in order to shape his story.

[@Deailon]

"Christian tradition has no fun books" lol. In most of European literature from IV to the early XXth century it is easy to show christian inspirations and themes. That was an important part of the culture the authors grew up in. It can be catholic, orthodox or protestant kind, it can be subtle or explicit, didactical or satirical - but that is how tradition works in any culture. It must be a sad life If you find all of the Cantenbury Tales, L'Mort d'Arthur, Decameron, Divine Comedy, Shakespeare plays, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Crime and Punishment, The Three Musketeers and The Master and Margarita (among many others) "not fun".

[@snappycenter7863]

There's also Don Quixote to a degree. In fact, one of the patrons of author Miguel de Cervantes was Bernardo Rojas - the Grand Inquisitor (leader) of the Spanish Inquisition in his day.

[@juliaj7939]

Thank you!!!!!

[@nataliedarley3943]

The hilarious thing is, it was actually Tolkien’s letters and writing that converted CS Lewis from an atheist to a Christian.

[@williamparcell9197]

It's clearly Christian. His world's origin even has one God and a fallen angel. Them trying to strip away the Christian aspects is incredibly sinister.

[@radagast7200]

Middle Earth and Midgard are almost the same word. There are definitely older myths involved. Númenor is also basically Atlantis. But it is also very Christian at the same time.

[@johnduquette7023]

@@radagast7200 People seem to miss that Christianity is a member of the Indo-European cultic family, mistaking a lot of the similarities between it and other religions as some kind of cultural theft rather than a permutation of an evolved narrative structure. It's quite easy for myths from across the Old World to be Christianized, because many of them are from the same family. For example, one finds the structure of Bellerophon and the Chimera in David and Goliath. Likewise, much of our records of Norse Mythology appear to be heavily Christianized before pen was ever set to paper. Tolkien was well read in many myth and legend cycles, and reframing story elements of any of them through the lens of Catholic values is damn-near effortless.

[@radagast7200]

@John Duquette I always thought it was strange that when Odin was hanging from the tree of wisdom he was stabbed in the ribs by a spear, and Jesus was stabbed in the ribs by a spear. Both in acts of ascension. There also seem to be some similarities between the stories Baldur and Jesus, not even mentioning the crown of thorns vs mistletoe thing. Then there is the Hel/Hell connection, but the Christian Hell seems to have some connection to Tartarus. From what I understand, this kind of underworld doesn't really exist in Judaism.

[@johnduquette7023]

​@@radagast7200 The underworld was incorporated most likely due to heavy Greek influence (Hellenization was regarded as a major cultural problem around the time of the Gospels), and the singular "devil" (distinct from the "accuser" of Job) is something they picked up from Zoroastrianism (Ahriman). The Hel/Hell thing is linguistic, in the same way that the point of reference is Hades in the Greek text, whereas Sheol or Gehenna might be more appropriate if we wanted to expend the effort to distinguish the Judeo-Christian underworld from any other. I've read a fair bit about Odin's hanging and the parallels with Baldur. Both appear to be post-Christian developments, the latter more definitely than the former. The spear in the side thing for Odin, it isn't clear what it might mean in the Norse conceptual language, which is why that especially is regarded as a Christian inclusion. In the Christian narrative the piercing and the blood and water have many distinct meanings. Water and blood signify the rebirth of the word. It's also a reference to the sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb. During this time, there were so many sacrifices conducted on the temple mount that its gutters gushed with blood and water (feeding into Christ's ""Tear down this temple, and I'll rebuild it in three days." (John 2:19)).

[@florbfnarb7099]

@@radagast7200 - Yes, certainly there are pagan elements, because Tolkien loved various pagan myths. The core of the stories are very Christian, however.

[@jaceyking5015]

Man, I have never wanted to throw copies of both The Silmarillion and the Bible at someone so bad. You know, one of my favorite novels since I was a young teen is Homer's The Odyssey. I'm very Christian, and I've never felt the need to somehow hammer in my Christian ideals into it in order to read it. It was written pre-Christianity, it deals with the Greek Pantheon. It's a great story, _end of story._ I wish people would just let Tolkien alone...

[@tomnorton4277]

Insulting the dead is popular these days. As soon as somebody famous dies, you'll see people accuse them of rape, racism, pedophilia and pretty much any other heinous crime under the yellow sun. Look at how they danced on Stan Lee, Michael Jackson (yes, he was innocent, watch Razorfist) and Betty White's graves.

[@Tangarisu]

@@tomnorton4277 "And we will continue to bash the dead hwuite men and the live ones, and the women, untill the very concept of the hwuite rase is destroyed, not merely abolished but utterly destroyed." ~Star of David Leader. We are at war with a tribe of humans that seek the utter erasure of the Euro.

[@togucvinw7]

I’m a christian myself (proudly so) and the Odyssey is one of my favorite read as well as Transformations by Homer. Even tho I don’t believe Zeus and his fellow olympians ever existed (tho I’ve read some people trying to say they were the angels that mated with humans in genesis) it doesn’t take away from me enjoying their stories . People need to stop trying to identify to everything on a 100% accuracy rate. It’s a lot of black folks who identified with Peter Parker life and struggle (myself included) and none of us look remotely close to him, and we don’t need him to look like us for us to identify

[@alfredoalmeida9824]

I'm atheist, and I've read Lotr and the Silmarillion several times. The stories inside may not have christianity in it or established religions like real life, but the base and structure of the books, the lore and mythology, a lot of things are inspired and written based on christianity or christian related content. There a lot of "easter eggs" related to christianity. I mean, when you read the books it's very obvious.

[@Joseph-cp6du]

Atheist*

[@alfredoalmeida9824]

@@Joseph-cp6du thanks

[@AmaryInkawult]

It just shows these idiots either only seen the films or frequented a hot topic for the LOTR merch because it looked neat.

[@johansvanborg5870]

One of my university teachers used the Bible for training advice. You often find things if you're looking for them.

[@pittland44]

When I started learning Hebrew it actually gave me a new appreciation for the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. Tolkien borrowed a lot of Hebrew words, phrasing, concepts and parts of the tengwar for his works (for example the tengwar you right vowels as diacritical marks above the consonants, which is similar to what they do in Hebrew). That of course makes perfect sense because the man was nothing if not a brilliant linguist. So basically to get Quenya you tack on some Hebrew elements and word structure onto some old Finnish poetry and songs and Bob's your uncle.

[@christopherquigley5468]

One of my high school teachers scoffed at me when I said I saw Christian themes in the LOTR. It isn’t a Christian book. But it definitely borrows a lot from the Bible. It is laughable that anyone would bother arguing otherwise. Who cares anyway? Why does it bother someone that a well written story was made by a Christian? It sounds like this guy’s argument is entirely an argument from silence.

[@DP-cd5wr]

Its just a bigoted 'progressive attitude. The fact is huge swathes of everything good in western culture was created by Christian men and women. These people are just hateful.

[@southj89]

As an Orthodox Christian who has read the church fathers and a lot of theology, I would argue that LoTR is a Christian story. It’s absolutely saturated in it

[@HandsomeLongshanks]

Imagine hating a religion so hard that you have to try to justify why one of the greatest series isn't aligned with ANY element of that religion. What a sad life the author must live.

[@Kal_g]

Saying that Tolkein's "The Lord of the Rings had nothing to do with Christianity" is like saying JSG's Gollum voice isn't on point.

[@baronkarza2939]

I thought it was a Mark Waid Impression

[@Kal_g]

@@baronkarza2939 It is, believe me. It's just that the impression he does is really good, even if it isn't associated with King Baby.

[@baronkarza2939]

@@Kal_g You know I wonder what he's been doing lately

[@Narukamiiii]

"it just a story about a wizard, elves ,hobbits and a ring", except when it's not and it's about Sam being gay and Sauron representing the lgbt, i love how the twitter weirdos never fail to either contradict themselves or be extremely hypocritical

[@kvxc4118]

It's just like when the Twitter morons try and say that Stalin supported political dissent groups when in reality it's know that stalin killed far more of them compared to Hitler. Some people just dont possess functional brains.

[@asarishepard8171]

I dont think they've read the books. I have and where in it is Sauron gay? I know I didnt miss it cause it wasn't there.

[@asarishepard8171]

@@kvxc4118 Stalin killed anyone he thought was going against him. These people should be sent back in time to his regime and find out.

[@NostalgicGamerRickOShay]

@@asarishepard8171 Too bad Bioware spat in my face when I mailed them a fat rough draft of how to create a new fantasy game in an alternate universe where the races of Mass Effect are on a single world, with their own land, rather than each having their own planet. The Player-Character starts off as the Prince of the Human Empire, Queen Benezia is the monarch of the land of Thessia, with her daughter Princess Liara. Technologically, we'd be a mixture of the ancient and the medieval. Forget about Elves and Dwarves; we have Salarians, Krogan, and Turians. :)

[@timesupea]

Sauron is literally the kind of person to string up the LGBTQ community across every black tree of Mordor

[@antmane7]

A bit off topic but… Damn I’m not even a Christian and I recognize that there are a decent amount of bad Christians out there. But I can’t imagine spiting the whole religion like this writer seems to. A really cool Christian guy that got out of church helped me jump start my car, he had a family but he decided to help me first before taking them home. Some people have like.. never met more than 3 people outside of their echo chamber

[@lupusnotte3235]

To be fair atheists like my self mock the religion, but mostly it’s most stupid beliefs held by the few that have nothing but pure flat earther levels of intelligence: I.E creationism of any kind, the Jahova’s wittinesses, and the concept of exoercism in place of actual medical treatment, and mock the few people who actually believe such idiotic dispositions like one mocks or makes fun of a anti vaxxer, which considering most who are of these beliefs are more likely to be conspiracy theorists, their likely to be

[@TheKing-qz9wd]

In conversation one finds that random acts of kindness are mentioned a little more often from some of the religious. I don't know why, I'm just pleasantly surprised about it.

[@thatguybrody4819]

@@TheKing-qz9wd mostly because Christianity is all about being kind to those around you and being a good person in general. But people often take what they see at face value instead of seeing it as what it is which is a guidebook instead of a rulebook.

[@TheKing-qz9wd]

@@thatguybrody4819 It is only a guide if you lack the faith in the doctrine.

[@thatguybrody4819]

@@TheKing-qz9wd how so?

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

When the author points out that Tolkien “called himself an anarchist” he is being misleading. Tolkien also called himself a monarchist in the same letter. The point he was making is that he hates the amorphous bureaucratizing effects of modern governance.

[@shiveringmousepodcast7153]

I am a Christian myself, and I see LOTR as inspired, not only by Christianity, but also by Norse Mythology as you said, but also Greek Mythology as well. Basically all of the cultures whose languages inspired his own, also sparked his imagination with his stories. And by weaving those threads together he made his own beautiful story. You don’t have to follow a religion to see the beauty of its mythology.

[@norsebrony346]

I'm a christian and I've seen this behaviour a lot from anti-chritians they deliberately invade christian spaces or target Christian's with the sole purpose of upsetting them all for a laugh his behaviour is only as childish as his opinions on Tolkiens work. I find it ironic that you had overzealous Christian's like Jack Chick claim that Tolkien and Lewis's works weren't christian because they didn't feature people from the bible and here we have a small minded person thinking the same way

[@PolarizedMechs]

There is a great amount of similarity between religious fanatics and anti-religious fanatics.

[@IngenuousSoprano]

@@PolarizedMechs most definitely!

[@opinionatortv6457]

@Tribal Blood oy vey

[@robertblume2951]

That's a step to far but I think there is truth to the idea there is a difference between Christian inspired, Tolkein, and Christian promoting like Lewis.

[@rushthezeppelin]

Interesting comparison, this is almost like a gay atheist Jack Chick...

[@erikavalentina4940]

I'm a Christian, I can see many biblical reference in Tolkien's story (LOTR and others). My friend is worshipping the spirits of nature, he also likes Tolkien's work because he can find many references according to his belief. We both love Tolkien. That's how genius he was. His work can speak to many people, Christian or not. But apparently, it can't speak well enough to some dumb who always try to despise any kind of belief for his whole lifetime.

[@linusgustafsson2629]

Naturally it can only speak to good people, since bad people will feel like the book condemns them for being bad.

[@risingdoom]

Halo mbak wkwkwkwk

[@MetulManiac]

As a Christian I actually found Tolkien to be a bit idolatrous of nature and the natural world, so I am not surprised that your friend found what he wanted to in LOTR.

[@thstroyur]

@@MetulManiac He was a linguist and a philologist by profession, but he had a general literary interest in English and Nordic mythology as well, and is this interest that can be written off as 'idolatrous' by someone who can only appreciate these old mythologies as religion and not simply fantastic literature - which, I suspect, may have been the or a main reason he didn't want to make Middle-Earth religiosity overtly explicit in his stories...

[@erikavalentina4940]

@@thstroyur very well said. I totally agree that the christian who claimed Tolkien's work as christianity text and people who told his work as religionless are at the same level of stupidity. Tolkien made his lore to create a backstory for fictional languages he created. The creation of his fictional universe has nothing to do with his Catholic faith. But as the story goes on, he then inspired by myths and religious text he was familiar with, thus he put some of its values to the story. It's a normal process to any writer on Earth. Idk why some people keep fusing about it while they can simply enjoy the story Tolkien has made as it is, a fantasy story.

[@Adorni]

Just started this video, and already it’s absurd- Tolkien didn’t write the Lord of the Rings as a religious text, true, but it’s absolutely got religious- and particularly *Christian* - influences and inspirations. To say “It’s a Christian allegory” is wrong. But to say “it’s not Christian” is _also_ wrong.

[@guardiansoulblade2673]

Tolkien himself disliked allegory, mainly because people would try to put whatever they felt like into it. LOTR is influenced by his Christianity, but he didn't beat you over the head with it.

[@Antonio_DG]

@@guardiansoulblade2673 Frodo's temptation is practically so explicit that it goes unnoticed, in addition to his choice of duty, another clear reference to free will, another Catholic cornerstone.

[@vngelicath1580]

Why do people think allegory is the only genre wherein Christianity can manifest itself. If that were the case than all Christian-influenced fiction would be Pilgrim's Progress.

[@olerocker3470]

“Their tradition has no fun books.” McDonald, Williams, Lewis just to name three contemporaries of Tolkien.

[@aeriszan]

Chesterton! Love the Father Brown mysteries.

[@potatoheadpokemario1931]

Also Shakespeare

[@draananor]

Poletti's summary of LotR's plot--"A wizard helps some hobbits to melt a magic ring"--reminds me so much of Ron Swanson from Parks & Rec (which is hilarious, because Ron Swanson would swat Poletti like a fly): "Moby Dick is my favorite book. No frou-frou symbolism, just a story about a man who hates an animal." Spot on!

[@ironwraith852]

Oh yeah, I remember that line. I wonder if he ever learned that there was, in fact, symbolism in it. I hope not.

[@DavidM_10]

Great video. As a life-long atheist, I find it disgusting that these people are determined to *corrupt* The Lord of the Rings and make it fit their own worldview -- simply because it's popular. Everything that's popular MUST conform, precisely, to modern liberal values, apparently. Heaven forbid that a story inspired by religion (one of human history's defining forces) be loved. And heaven forbid that artistic integrity be respected.

[@johnrockwell5834]

It does actually look like evil.

[@AJTalon]

The beauty of Tolkien's work is that his experience is HUMAN. It connects with us at our best and our worst, regardless of our religion, race, gender, etc. He was a phenomenal writer and a genius, and it shows with how influential his work is and remains. No wonder these mediocrities seek to destroy it.

[@Vikingr4Jesus5919]

@@johnrockwell5834 Oh, well, it's kinda much harder to believe there's no evil than to believe there is. Won't you say so?

[@johnrockwell5834]

@@Vikingr4Jesus5919 True. We instinctively recognize it. But the other side is recognizing objective good. Which leads some to believe in a God. If the devil is real. So is the other side.

[@johnrockwell5834]

@Eric Posey He dislikes allegory. But prefers symbolism. So its weaved seamlessly into the story like its the way things are without shoehorning and how they work without being preachy and ensuing a good story.

[@KageMinowara]

If Tolkien wasn't a Christian then he done goofed because his novels are what set me on the path to becoming a Christian.

[@SugarRayD]

The values of the Kingdom are key in the Tolkien books.

[@SuperKatiki]

Tolkien, the fake Christian, was so bad at being a fake Christian that he helped to lead C.S. Lewis to Christ so thoroughly that he went on to become possibly the more well known and widely read Christian writer of the 20th century.

[@mariaishimova4398]

Same

[@Kaymen1980]

I'm pretty sure you brought Christianity on yourself..

[@Powerhaus88]

@@SuperKatikiLMAO bruh, Lewis is like a cheap knockoff of Tolkien, he basically stole Tolkien's ideas.

[@harbl99]

Tolkien had no less than _three_ Christ-like figures in LOTR: Gandalf the wise teacher who dies and is resurrected, Aragorn the humble and just man who is the rightful king, and Frodo the reluctant martyr who eventually resolves to give his life to destroy a great evil. That's quite apart from elements like the temptation and redemption of Boromir, the steadfast courage and unwavering faith of Sam, the willing renunciation of this world by the Elves, or the idea that we are all fighting the long defeat until eucatastrophic events set tragic history right. But no, there's no Christian aspects to the book at all. Well done Jonathon Poletti, you've cracked the code.

[@skiamach6208]

I do agree that Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo are Christ figures in specific and narrow ways. But Frodo's aspect of being Christlike I would argue is that he carried the ring (a clear symbol for sin and corruption) for all of Middle Earth. In Christian theology Christ bore the sins of the world.

[@Akiraspin]

Tolkien was literally so Catholic that he was a little hurt when CS Lewis went from being an atheist to a CHRISTIAN not a Catholic lmfao. They obviously were still close friends, and "literary rivals" but reading their letters is so wholesome.

[@Silvia_Arienti]

Catholics are Christians. Lewis became Protestant (specifically Anglican). Protestants are also Christians.

[@juliaj7939]

Catholics were also looked down upon by many English at that time so it hurt Tolkien that CS Lewis didn't become one even though he did Catholic things like confession.

[@Akiraspin]

@@Silvia_Arienti You know what I meant obviously.

[@Silvia_Arienti]

@@Akiraspin Yes, but some Protestants actually think that Catholics are not Christians.

[@kurglekreutzer6344]

​@@Silvia_Arienti Well, strictly speaking the Catholic church itself does not call their believers Christians, they are just Catholics. For example a Christian in the Bible is a person who believes the gospel of the grace of God to save them, and this happens immediately when they believe that gospel. The Catholic church believes nothing of the kind. They would in fact call it a heresy and a sin of assumption, that is, if someone were to just trust in what Jesus Christ earned for us all in dying for our sins, being buried and then resurrecting on the third day. So strictly speaking and in a Biblical sense, the Catholic system is an anti-Christian system. They of course, the Catholic system, have for the sake of deceiving the masses, always publicly paraded themselves as a Christian church. They also use the same type of vocabulary and terminology sometimes heard in a Christian church, but their version of those things will have a radically different meaning to them. (This is also something they use to "build bridges" by claiming, don't you see we believe the same thing, when that is the furthest thing from the truth. Basically it would be like you saying the word red and they agreeing to it, but their red would really mean in their doctrine everything else but red) Now it is true that there may be any number of truly Christian people in that system, but NOT because the system and its doctrine could make them Christian - that simply put, would be impossible!

[@some_otaku_nerd6546]

"A Catholic man who wrote a non-Catholic book having to deal with that in a discussion with a priest" Except the Priest was praising Tolkien's character of Galadriel, in whom the priest saw a resemblance to Mary, who the Catholic Church holds sacred as the mother of Jesus! If a Catholic person told me that one of my characters resemble Mary, I would see it as high praise.

[@commentdouchery2838]

"It's deeply queer." You only watched the movie, didn't you? I'm guessing he was so moved by the pure friendship of Sam and Frodo that he had to try and claim it because he doesn't understand that intimacy does not require sexual attraction to be shared. The Hobbits only had each other to trust on a journey that nearly consumed Frodo at the last possible minute. I would think Brothers at arms would whole heartedly understand the struggle Frodo and Sam faced. Not some self-imposing twink that has to make everything about them.

[@louiscypher4186]

Humanity has a tendency to seek themselves within fiction. When your entire personality is your sexuality you find it in everything you like whether it exists or not.

[@mgh7634]

He didn't even watch the movie. Because if he did, he wouldn't say some crap about how there's no racism in LoTR. No racism? Anyone who's even seen the movies would note the racial hatred between the dwarves and elves, the way hobbits are underestimated, and how men are universally distrusted by all. Much of the dynamic beween Legolas and Gimli is about overcoming that hurdle. Same with Aragorn and Boromir, where you have one man raised by elves who distrusts his own kind, a people he is meant to rule as king, and another who is trying to convince him of the virtue therein. This is all in the very first movie and its something that is addressed again and again in the follow-ups as well. This hack clearly knows nothing of the series; it's just a vehicle to force his politics upon.

[@SysterYster]

I think it also has to do with the fact that male friendship is often actually described differently in older works compared to newer works. And some people can't understand that and read things into it that aren't there.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

These people were molested by trusted male confidants, so they assume all intimate male friendships are sexual.

[@rushthezeppelin]

I mean at best he can claim Sam as bi, sure he forget that Sam went back to the Shire, got married and had I think 12 kids?

[@bryanguzik]

Even as an atheist I'm amazed at the seemingly unique contempt for Christianity. No matter your beliefs, its foundational philosophies were/are critical to the formation of the Western world. Thogh I suspect that's the problem. If it becomes necessary for them one-day, it'll be funny watching them attempting the same thing with the "actual" R.O.Peace!

[@jonathanbowling2904]

This particular writer seems to have an ax to grind. I suspect he possibly had some conflict with Christians growing up and he hasn't gotten over it. Again, I don't know but I suspect.

[@bryanguzik]

@@jonathanbowling2904 yeah, his "analysis" of the letter to the priest is stunning. It looks (to me) almost as proof the guy isn't merely attempting some mental gymnastics to bolster his pov. Rather that he genuinely can't see straight, otherwise he'd simply ignore its existence & try elsewhere.

[@jonathanbowling2904]

@@bryanguzik Mental Gymnastics is the best way to describe his article. I myself am a Christian but i enjoy Tolkien's work because it is a fantasy with some Christian beliefs being woven into the tale. And not just his beliefs but other fantasy creatures that existed in folklore. Not to mention his time during WWI did play a role in some of the telling of his LOTR. But Tolkien is wise enough to keep it as it's own tale, and not a painfully obvious metaphor.

[@bryanguzik]

@@jonathanbowling2904 yeah, I know the phrase has generally had a wider meaning, but for some reason my brain associates it with being intentionally and/or purposefully misleading. As opposed to near delusion! But I get your point, it's on me.

[@brendancoulter5761]

Marxists hate any idea that could be help above Marxism. They always subvert the dominate religion of the culture they are acting apon.

[@100Servings]

The problem is that you're a scholar and they're a jackwagon who will forget what they wrote the day before, just like their readers. You also have no agenda in this. You're just stating facts, like an actual scholar. Thank you for your work and stating eloquently what we've all known for more than a century. I can always count on you to state the truth.

[@scroletyper8286]

I'm Christian and I could argue how the lord of the rings is Christian all day but such a discussion would require chairs snacks and drinks as well as two copies of the book annotated for either side of the argument along with other letters and writings to offer context. There is a great professor who did some excellent lectures on this matter, sadly I only heard him talk once and have forgotten his name as that was a rather long time ago.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

While Tolkien had few one-to-one allegories, Aragorn is basically the prophesied Great Catholic Monarch described by several Saints and mystics throughout history. Tolkien was so devoutly Catholic, especially to the most traditional aspects of it, that when the Mass was changed to English he would loudly belt out the Latin responses during the services in opposition to the changes.

[@hansmeier5617]

Tolkien was inspired by all the beliefs that existed in england for lord of the rings. Celtic, Germanic and Christian mythology. This is what makes this book so brilliant and important. It reflects the soul and culture of England.

[@jakelee7083]

I'd say that's a more fair estimation. I think that's why it is so endearing and beloved in England most of all. It almost feels like a piece of English history.

[@gabeeee323]

Great point. But these bible thumpers claim their religion is the only inspiration

[@hansmeier5617]

@@gabeeee323 Yes, unfortunately, too few people know all the great stories and books that make up our culture. ( Edda, Iliad, odyssee, bible, niebelungen, beowulf, arthur and all the other legends and myths of celtic germanic, greek, roman culture of the west.

[@hansmeier5617]

@@jakelee7083 Yes, an absolutely brilliant book that I also love as a Swiss because it also reflects a lot of our culture and the whole Germanic, Celtic and Christian culture

[@spellman007]

ya it even has colonialism in there too!

[@loranriser2989]

I used to be a miserable atheist just like Jonathan--and religiously so. New Atheism is a lonely road where you spend more time judging people for believing in God than you do living and enjoying life WITH those people. So while I'm still technically an atheist, I reject the label. Christianity has shaped many of the things and people I love, and I have no issue embracing that fact. Hopefully Jonathan comes to understand this one day.

[@lightningpenguin8937]

I used to dislike religion as well. Not because I thought it was stupid, but because people hurt each other for it. Later I learned people hurt each other for anything they believed. Sometimes even things other believed. So now I guess I just dislike extremism.

[@jonathanbowling2904]

Loran, if you are fine with sharing, can I ask you what changed? Was it one event, or over a period of time? All the best to you!

[@sorbabaric1]

People bashing Christianity ignore all the good it has accomplished, (focusing only on the bad instances) and how many useful and necessary functions it performs, and has performed. And how organized churches had been central in organizing people to accomplish things together they could not accomplish alone. How do people today grieve a loss of a family member or friend without a funeral (church service) to acknowledge their life and death ? How do people in a community get together on a day to talk, get to know each other, and plan ? (Hint : they don’t, suffering instead in isolation and not knowing their neighbors, increasing fear of the unknown, and experiencing lack of social resources and connections). Intersectionalism is the seven deadly sins with altruism run amok. (People full of envy and greed, disguising their clawing their way to the top by saying it’s altruism for others (notice they always do it by spending other peoples money, never their own time and money).

[@lightningpenguin8937]

@@sorbabaric1 I'm just going to say that people will communicate, and interact with each other even without religion. It's one of the fundamental things about people. Religion can definitely help at times, but it's not the core aspect of it.

[@Tsukasa829]

I actually had the same problem. I became an edgy 19 year old athiest who just made fun of religious people. I've mellowed a lot over 10 years and now I just look back at myself and at people like Jonathon as embarrassing and trying to validate an identity by putting down and judging others like a schoolyard bully does for their clique.

[@davidbecquer3624]

As a hardcore atheist, I would never have imagined myself standing in defense of Christian values. But here I am, this is where the woke instanity has brought us all. Tolkien created this world. It is HIS work, they are HIS values, and they both deserve respect.

[@Brandelwyn]

Never thought you'd fight side by side with a christian? How about side by side with a friend?

[@SugarRayD]

@@Brandelwyn That's what it's all about ain't it?

[@horrificpleasantry9474]

Ironically that's how it is IRL. It's God's world. They're his ideas (male, female, hetero, chastity) and the rainbow jihad doesn't want to respect that

[@edenmckinley3472]

Both C.S. Lewis and Tolkien loved fairy tales and thought that they possessed an element essential to humanity. When Tolkien said that the Gospel contained a fairy story of sorts, he wasn't being irreverent or saying that the Gospel was nothing more than a tale told to children. If anything, with his love of fairy tales, that was high praise. You can draw a clear thematic connection between a fairy tale (characters/character in crisis, wondrous and exciting twists, inexplicable events, happy ending) to the story of Jesus (people in crisis, wondrous and exciting twists, inexplicable events, happy ending). Even atheists can see the connection and read the context. Also, am I the only one weirded out by the fact that the dude in the article said that Christians are obsessed with sex? In traditional Christianity, the whole point was to NOT be obsessed with it.

[@jednejzer1991]

“In the beginning there was *The Word* and *The Word* was with God.” The first thing mentioned in The Bible is a sound… Erü Illuvitar sang creation into being… Both stories begin with sound…

[@rando5673]

Tolkein: mentions god and the bible all the time and how he incorporated his faith into his stories. Progressive journos: these stories are masterpieces and I blindly hate Christianity as part of my programming, therefore they can't be Christian

[@lupusnotte3235]

I agree, even I can see the fucking writings on the wall that not only is it likely that tolkien a man back during the 1930s where almost EVERYONE was religious and his relations to many religious people as well as his own writings that he was a Christian, but instead of making fun of people who are conmen and use religion as a way to spread lies and misinformation (read, creationists), they rather attack tolkien… who was pretty liberal for a conservative… and who also didn’t beat people over the head with his religion like most nut jobs atheists actually have problems with

[@sammygoodnight]

'the 1930s when pretty much everyone was religious.' I'm pretty sure that Tolkein's milieu, Oxford in the 1930s, was heavily atheist.

[@whatwhat98]

Tolkien didn't insult the readers intelligence. He didn't have to blatantly state that this represents this. I've listened to the audio books, and I can see the similarities

[@brendancoulter5761]

He actively disliked allegories, there were themes in his writings but he was never going to beat you to death with them or hand cuff the reader to a single meaning of the text.

[@DawidKov]

Over here in former USSR Lord of the Rings was one of the first major stories from the West that wasn't thoroughly filtered through the communist censor (though the early translations were heavy on adapting the names of people and places). The youth of the early 90s - a very harsh time in these parts, characterised by depression and deprecation, - found the saga to be an incredible source of much needed escapism. And we're talking about the youth that had a Soviet childhood - one of anti-religious narratives in most fiction. Yet they loved Lord of the Rings to the point of organising "quests" inspired by it, draping an old curtain around their shoulders and pretending to be wizards. I'm not just talking children - teenagers and young adults were known to do that. Which goes to show that the book is applicable to everyone. The author of that article seems unable to reconcile that fact. He seems intent on the idea that the things he enjoys are those of his own worldview, and that if they are in any way related to a differing, or worse, opposing worldview, then they must either not be enjoyed, or proven to be incompatible with that opposing view. It seems to me, that if he had known about religious influences beforehand, he would be going on about all the woes of the how archaic and non-inclusive the books are. But since he has already enjoyed it, he has to conform *it* to his views.

[@jendoe9436]

The fact that Tolkien didn’t outright reference Biblical figures and stories and even including pagan sources in his writings doesn’t make his works any less inspired by his faith. In fact, the idea of other cultures worshipping God (as in the one Creator as Jews and Christians believe) is something the Catholic Church acknowledges can be true and is a common ground for discussion. It ties a bit to St. Paul telling one of the groups he visited that their statue to ‘the Unknown God’ is a good thing as it means they are open to the one true God. This also ties to the idea that the law of God is written in every person’s heart, establishing the basis that even people who never heard of the Gospels or God’s word can still be counted as part of God’s kingdom. Admittedly this is a very general summary and there’s way more nuance and theology to it, but the base idea is that Christians can see the good things of other cultures and believe God had a hand in it. As an aside, it was actually a Christian monk who wrote down what we know of as the Poetic Edda and other Norse myths. There is discussion about who influenced who, but Norse mythology wouldn’t be as widely known without that monk’s work.

[@n333k333]

“The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work." ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

[@Stale_Buns]

As a Muslim I have a lot of respect for Tolkien being a fellow God fearing man. These people writing the articles today can't stand to think how Religious people have developed the world and brought it into the modern age as we know it through their sacrifices and discoveries/developments in medicine, science etc.

[@thekaiser3815]

You got that right my friend.

[@AlexanderCheff]

Based Muslim. I'm Orthodox so not as distant to Catholicism as you are but my feeling is basically the same.

[@scottmcmahon86]

"Religious people have developed the world and brought it into the modern age as we know it through their sacrifices and discoveries/developments in medicine, science etc." *laughs in Copernicus and Galileo*

[@pyrolight7568]

Ya, I mean you had the Islamic Golden Age.

[@pyrolight7568]

@@scottmcmahon86 Islamic Golden Age, look it up. Greek Orthodox Christianity and Islam (larger part), pretty much continued Roman tradition. If not for them, the Renaissance would never have happened. Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodox are wildly different. Also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus, Catholic cannon... Not the best example haha.

[@nicholasdaley7041]

"Pious Brittish Catholic writes a series of books "WITHOUT " any Christian elements prior to the internet " would be a lot weirder thing to say than "Pious Brittish Catholic writes series of books containing elements off all local mythos to include Christianity ". One of those statements is probably closer to the truth. ( I think it's probably the second one).

[@steventhomas2856]

*British*

[@nicholasdaley7041]

@@steventhomas2856 yeah....brittish guy writes a story inspired by Brittish things...pre internet. That's a thing that happened. We call it " Lord of the rings" . Sorry/ not sorry it's an awesome tale.

[@steventhomas2856]

@@nicholasdaley7041 Yeah... illiterate Ammericcan completely fails to get the point. I'd have thought if *you* thought it was such an awesome tale (it is) you'd at least show the author enough respect to get his nationality right.

[@irena4545]

"There's no gestures to any deity and no religious practices" - what, singing hymns to a lady who created stars and invoking her name in the moments of fear to look upon you, and the said name being able to hurt a wraith ain't religious enough? Also, Bilbo was meant to find the Ring and Frodo was meant to have it after him - yeah, totally a coincidence and not a hint towards some higher power planning, sure.

[@suburbanbanshee]

Not to mention the whole thing about the Window on the West, with Faramir explaining Gondor's beliefs.

[@irena4545]

@@suburbanbanshee A good point. Every day, every meal, they give a silent nod to the beings as close to god as it gets, and through them, to him.... nah, ot religious at all. I wonder if the guy ever read LOTR.... perhaps once as a kid, and then watched the films, more like :-(

[@universalflamethrower6342]

@@irena4545 Don't mention Numenor to he will just say they were LARP-ing their religion

[@SlayerofDrag0ns]

It's also perfectly clear that this "author" never even read the book since in the Story Frodo used the phrase "Elbereth Githoniel" against the Black Riders. That phrase is essentially like a priest using the phrase "The Power of Christ compels you".

[@SydNixon]

"Discussion of sex--that great Christian obsession--is muted..." Any properly Catechized person knows that pride is the deadliest of all sins, not lust (C.S. Lewis stated so in Mere Christianity). My Catholic school fourth grade teacher (who was Baptist) said that all sin begins with pride. And LOTR is full of characters whose pride leads to their downfall! The only people who seemed to be obsessed with sex is Christian detractors like Mr. Poletti. Pride will lead to his downfall (and those like him) in the end.

[@PKMN37]

Unlike many Christian stories (and woke stories), J.R.R Tolkien believed in subtlety. So many of today's writers want to beat you over the head with their beliefs while Tolkien believed it best to keep his in the background to let the story speak for itself.

[@PauperPeccator]

I believe a few critics call this subtlety ‘applicability.’ It makes the story that much elegant and more embodying of the Truth he sought to be part of. That and the fact that he simply wasn’t one to partake in allegory.

[@TheUraharasensei]

The work of a Christian scholar of epics wrote an epic with christian themes. In other news water is wet!

[@calummacritchie7840]

And fire is hot.

[@TheUraharasensei]

@@calummacritchie7840 this is obviously a gay metaphor :P

[@elliotwalton6159]

I think what the 'author" is failing to take notice of in LOTR is how the characters act. He's looking for surface allegories which, as you point out, Tolkien had little interest in. He was after the universal. He found that in the way good battles evil. In the ways men and hobbits and elves are tempted by power. How evil seduces and lies its way into the hearts of men to corrupt them. The way evil perverts good and freedom into hate and authoritarianism. This is as much the pilgrim's journey as it is Frodo's. What is more Christian or Catholic than to travel into Hell itself to defeat the Lord of Darkness? I'd say Light triumphs. To say that LOTR isn't fundamentally Christian in its vision, is like saying Jack Kirby's Fourth World isn't Jewish in its core concepts, let alone its execution.

[@rev.jonathanwint6038]

I'm a pagan an actual real one. I would love to say the ring was a pagan text but it's not. It is literally laced with Christian values. Basically, it's like one of those early attempts to Christianise Early pagans by applying Pagan characters to Christian themes. It's a great fantasy series and I love it and I take it purely as that. And I do not try and judge it but it says Christian as hell and heaven. I mean the wizards are angelic beings taking physical form coming as teachers with special skills and then becoming corrupted.. I mean that's straight-up Old testament Nephilim.

[@Silvia_Arienti]

Technically the Nephilim are the sons of those fallen angels (who were part of the group of angels called the Watchers)

[@Gabe7Gal]

I'd have to respectfully disagree here. Sure, the LotR definitely has Christian inspirations, but the work overall is overtly "pagan". Your comparison to Nephilim literally proves this point. The whole concept of the Nephilim is a pagan element in christianity, indeed the christian bible itself is a fusion of old testament pagan stories and new testament spiritual principles. We can go further here but then things get messy. It's hard to judge Tolkien's work as "christian" or "pagan" on a deep level because frankly, the lines between those two theologies themselves become blurred on a deep level. But I'd say that on a more surface level, this lore is more pagan than anything. There's a polytheistic pantheon and everything is rooted in those multiple gods. There are multiple races of beings, a largely pagan concept. There's a strong emphasis on nature, it's power and respecting it. There's literally an Atlantis allegory. It's all overtly pagan elements here.

[@crimsonthumos3905]

@@Gabe7Gal Tolkien literally said that it was Catholic. Middle Earth is monotheistic, there is only one God. There is an objective good vs and objective evil. There are angelic beings and demonic beings. Whilst Tolkien loved myth, he hated paganism as a religion. He took noble pagan virtues such as courage and raw will, recontextualising them into Catholic contexts. This, in the books, is best exemplified through Rohan and Eowyn.

[@crimsonthumos3905]

@@Gabe7Gal "In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Númenóreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.” -JRR Tolkien

[@Gabe7Gal]

@@crimsonthumos3905 dude, actually learn the lore before talking about this. Middle Earth is POLYTHEISTIC, look it up. Not _just_ angels, but literally gods.Yeah there's a head "creator" God, but that's how virtually all forms of polytheism are in real life. I'm not saying there aren't christian elements in Tolkien's work, there certainly are, but the actual structure of how the world works is mostly pagan

[@VulgrDisplay]

Ah yes, a tale about the battle between good and evil, the corruption of men through sin, going to a better place when your battle is done, Angels(elves) fighting a supremely evil being, and a whole host of other fundamental Christian beliefs isn't based upon Tolkien's faith. His religion grounded him in reality and that grounding is what allowed him to create one of the greatest stories ever told.

[@karlazeen]

Well as real as the idea of angelic and demonic forces can be.

[@shanestevens5352]

He even once said as to why he enjoyed writing so much “we create because we were created”

[@TOUGHEYES]

As someone who is Pagan, I can't help but be amused by these Godless attempting to undermine Tolkien's work.

[@radagast7200]

@@dookie_12 yup. Commies can't stand competition.

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@radagast7200 even communist don’t want these guys

[@RobertWilkinsonJKekMaloy]

@@dookie_12 when people confuse fiction and reality, religion is the FIRST thing to be derided

[@johnduquette7023]

The Luciferian Impulse: to insist your wisdom surpasses Reality. Once you recognize it, it's really easy to see who is and isn't an impending disaster who will take others down with them. Keep your head above water, and get out of their current.

[@RobertWilkinsonJKekMaloy]

@@johnduquette7023 Ummm … got proof of god? Gotta have god be real before lucifer has anything to do with shit. If god not real, satan fake as fuck too.

[@matthewbailey376]

This reminds me of when I was in college and informed a learned professor and a number of students that Tolkien was a catholic and witnessed the conversion of C.S. Lewis, whom he considered one of his closest friends. But hey this is the kind of person that wants to sexualize fraternal love.

[@guardiansoulblade2673]

There is a huge complaint among men that gays have ruined the concept of male friendships because everyone seems to assume, if you're a guy that spends a lot of time with another guy, you are automatically gay, and it's a stupid assumption to assume that just because guys spend time with each other they are all gay.

[@nunyabizniss462]

Just Some Guy brings humor, insightful Tolkien analysis, and some of the most brutal clapbacks in recorded history to the table. Sir, continue this noble work. You've won a subscribe from me.

[@paleface171]

Have you seen seen the Nerdrotic LOTR podcast that he attended in late December? If you haven't here it is. He was a guest and had a ton of things to say along with Robert Meyer Burnett one of the people who worked on the films. He has a lot to say, one of the most captivating was his interview with Christopher Lee. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h3m8cmymecqgn8k&ab_channel=NerdroticLive

[@aldwinwong5192]

I actually never expected you, an atheist to defend Tolkien's work as inspired from Christian teachings. Great video man.

[@ardian_g]

I'm muslim and while Lord of the rings is my favorite book I accept the fact that Tolkien was catholic.

[@A_Humble_Writer]

As far as I care, it has Christian themes and overtones. I have a church leader that if he isn't incorporating aspects of Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit into his sermons, it's planes he uses as analogies. Really love his stories.

[@KageMinowara]

I really want to go to your church.

[@TheRisky9]

Is the name Uctdorf?

[@A_Humble_Writer]

@@TheRisky9 bingo

[@TheRisky9]

@@KageMinowara Join the Mormons

[@KageMinowara]

@@TheRisky9 Why the Mormons?

[@darthkek1953]

The point of LOTR is it was part of the "Inklings" group at Oxford in the 1930s and 1940s... they were all devout Christians who wanted to retell pre-Christian era tales of Europe but with a fundamentally Christian message. I mean the Celtic Druids of old boiled people alive... Vikings with the Blood Eagle... etc... it's difficult to make them the good guys by doing a TRULY realistic telling. So they cleaned it up, throw in "Light & Dark" motifs, and often a bit of resurrection (Gandalf, Aslan, etc.) and suddenly you've got a bit of the old and a bit of the new.

[@darthkek1953]

Oh, and another part of the Inklings group is it's not a conspiracy theory... THERE WERE QUITE OPEN ABOUT THEIR GOALS AND INTENTIONS AND WROTE ABOUT THEM REGULARLY.

[@panniguin862]

I have to ask, which Celtic druids? cause they were about as 'united' as the modern Protestants are (which is to say, not very united at all)

[@themykeshow9027]

"Oh, so you're one of them. I might have known." There's an elegant sort of venom in the way JSG says those words. I love it!

[@kittentuson5892]

You are an absolute delight to listen to my friend, an absolute delight!

[@FizzyCola99]

This is great to see. I'm a devout Christian and me and dad have once discussed that J.R.R. Tolkien was Catholic, but I wasn't 100% sure until I saw this video. He truly is an inspiration for me, being able to make an entertaining and meaningful story that can be enjoyed by religious and non-religious folks. Thanks for debunking this weird blogpost, God bless

[@damagingthebrand7387]

I went to a liberal university, and many of my friends were 'pagan', they hated Christianity, but loved paganism. I, as an historian, laughed at this because if they had grown up in a world with a 'pagan' religion they would have hated it. Many of my friends were enamoured with Buddhism, and while I like some parts of Buddhism, if you know anything about the whole there are the same problems that they have with Christianity. Especially since when I was in university it was Mahayanna that was popular. Great video, when i was young I thought the 'middle' between the left and right was quite wide, now it is just a razor to stand on; at least it is not Occam's.

[@splitsong7368]

Not yet anyways. If things keep going their will be no middle ground to stand on and everyone will be againat everyone. The divisions we have nowadays are starting to remind me of the signs of the beginning of the end. The birth pains as it were.

[@mdthelegend9882]

It’s hilarious how the author denies Tolkein’s Christian influence on LOTR while projecting his own ideology on to it.

[@jamescole7614]

This guy is the type who can't understand subtlety, symbology, and themes. He's the kind who needs things told directly to him other wise he will just insert his own narrative which is clearly "Christianity is the Ultimate Evil", the idea of a moral Chatolic terrifies him. The idea that a Chatolic can't be a hateful, ignorant or agressivly religious is something he can wrap his head around. He labors under he delusion that he is a moral authority and as a result anyone he respects must be someone who would agree with HIS ideals and if they appear not to they are just "secretly just like me, cause only people like me can be good". He shows the expected level of devoution to his religion of self worship.

[@johnduquette7023]

The Luciferian Impulse: to believe one's own wisdom is greater than Reality.

[@jamescole7614]

@@johnduquette7023 ironic the Christian symbolism fits an anti-Christian, cause let's face it if all your atheism focuses so specifically on "owning" Christianity your not really a proper atheist.

[@johnduquette7023]

@@jamescole7614 They're focused on "owning" their own mental construction of "God," which is half a fabrication of their own mind, and half the "God" of modernistic western Evangelicals, which is deeply materialistic and disconnected from classical notions. Neither understand the difference between accidental and essential causality, and as such are handicapped (in the case of the angry New Atheist, crippled) in extracting meaningful lessons from the narratives.

[@varisugocsay1152]

@@johnduquette7023 Very well put.

[@asarishepard8171]

Subtlety flies over his head.

[@nathanaelculver5308]

*"There’s no racism, misogyny, homophobia, compulsory heterosexuality or theocracy…. Discussion of sex-that great Christian obsession-is muted….That is hardly traditional Christianity."* In sum, this guy compares his Cliff Notes-level knowledge of Tolkien to his strawman view of "traditional Christianity" and concludes that he knows what he’s talking about. I think Dunning and Kruger had this guy in mind. And wait! A Elbereth Gilthoniel _wasn’t_ a prayer!?

[@Xenobeast78]

I love this guy hope your channel sticks around for years to come.

[@DrasserC]

Tolkien took inspiration from many sources to create the Middle Earth. Whoever has read the Silmarillion (and paid a minimum of attention, I guess) can see the similarities between the chapters about the creation of the world and the Book of Genesis. Damn it, Melkor/Morgoth is practically the equivalent of Lucifer in this.

[@Rinesmyth]

And isn't Eru Illuvatar just God in another name?

[@Kaweebo]

For a man who claims to be above concepts like believing in angels and a one true god, he sure can't seem to keep the concepts from living rent-free in his head.

[@庫倫亞利克]

As an atheist, LOTR is one of my favorite books of all time. It doesn't seem pandering to me, like at all, and plenty of themes and values promoted by Tolkien in the books seem pretty solid even on a purely secular level: the importance of never giving in to defeatism and cynicism, as demonstrated by Denethor and Saruman, for example. Also how prone humans are to believing themselves to be doing good when they slip down the slippery slope of radicalization (Sauron, and the "what if" scenario of Gandalf being corrupted by the One Ring). You also see very little "flashy" magic being used in humanity's last stand against Sauron's forces on both sides. Frodo and Sam have to tread through a long and arduous path to Mordor; Gandalf provides mainly advise and inspiration; Sauron and the Nazguls may be incorporeal spirits of fear and menace, but his armies use conventional swords, siege machines, and beasts of war. Overall, Tolkien seems to be a firm believer of what evils that happen in this world needing solution by human hands, and I'm perfectly fine with that message.

[@johnrockwell5834]

Even the Biblical text features a God that is reluctant to be flashy most of the time except for special symbolic reasons as much as it serves the needs in the circumstances.

[@Antonio_DG]

Yes, you said a correct thing, but the elements within it are not Christians in general, they do not give pro-Christian messages, they do not even contain allegories about Christianity, but the heroes embody the virtues and Catholic theology about man, not the divine. Resist temptations, (such as those that the ring induces to its bearer), free wills, characters talk about what to do, they are not guided by anyone in this, they are free, and although Frodo is not a giant of extraordinary strength his faith in the mission is strong. The book was written by Tolkien to create a world for the languages ​​he created, he did not want to convert anyone, but this does not exclude that he has entered his own values, not really as a Christian, but as a Catholic and that they cannot even be understood for those who do not specifically knows Catholicism. The real sad thing is the attempt to pass the book as a derivative of British politics, Anglo-Saxon supremacism, Tolkien as a Catholic was himself a target, it is documented that he was not racist and above all he did not sympathize with Nazism. So the book is undoubtedly a good book but it has no religious function, but there are only "Catholic things" in it and there is no sense in this obsession for the promoters of gender-less ideology to try to cancel it or make it queer.

[@b.melakail]

Your last sentence is incorrect. Divine providence is a main focal point of LoTR

[@b.melakail]

His catholic faith is the rock on which he builds the story. Yes it immediately comes out of his language creation which is a fair point, but its spirit is undeniably catholic

[@NoActuallyGo-KCUF-Yourself]

Religion poisons everything. Good, real, secular values are stolen by the religious to score points for their imaginary gods. Oh well, it's just fiction. No need to take it so seriously.

[@InfernosReaper]

The bible had deep critiques of men in power. There are several stories in there about powerful men letting that power go to their head to the point where god wrecked them over it(King Solomon is one of my favorite examples). How can one claim to be an expert on the religion with clearly 0 understanding of it?! Also love that "their religion has no fun books" line acting like Narnia isn't overtly Christian in nature.

[@PolishBigfootCircle11]

Saying that Christians ignore context is so ironic. The first thing they taught me in Bible College, was that you had to read the Bible IN ITS HISTORICAL CONTEXT

[@HunterXMoon]

I find it hilarious when people try to say Tolkien "wasn't inspired by his Christian beliefs" in his writing, when C.S. Lewis literally credits his conversion from Atheism to Christianity largely to Tolkien and his time at university with the man. People are incredibly dense.

[@MyReligionIs2DoGood]

I'm an atheist myself, but the facts are pretty clear. There's no denying it: LotR was heavily influenced by religion. It's pretty pathetic to deny the impact of religion - or any other ideology, for that matter - a writer may be affected by, on their work. However, I don't personally care what might have influenced an artist - if it's good, it's good. In this case, it's great! This is a lame attempt to make an argument against Christianity - as if there weren't enough real arguments...

[@lupusnotte3235]

I literally write fanasty stories and I can guarantee religion has a impact on it, and while I mostly make fun of most myths and or turn it on its head , it doesn’t mean I’m not impacted by it, anyone who says that is stupid

[@MandalorV7]

Very true. It’s like how I as a Christian can enjoy Star Trek when in some cases it was meant to be anti-Christian (That’s more TNG) But they are fun stories I can enjoy and plenty of themes I do agree with.

[@MyReligionIs2DoGood]

@@MandalorV7 I would strongly contest you on the anti-Christian intention of Star Trek. It wasn't against Christianity or faith in general, it was against institutionalized religion, as a means of control, and as a way to suppress divergent ideas. More than once did Star Trek (especially TNG) emphasize freedom of thought and belief, and spoke out vividly against censorship, thought policing, and every other kind of oppression. Not once did Star Trek attack any particular belief system or religion, but always only specific types of (arguably immoral, or at least morally debatable) behavior that came with them.

[@spartanx169x]

@@MyReligionIs2DoGood So you do not believe there is anything after death? You think all of this life/worlds/universe was just pure incidental? I'm genuinely curious.

[@MALICEM12]

@@MyReligionIs2DoGood perhaps but it's "enlightened" only logic and reason futurism leans towards forsaking all superstitions and religions in the end. But that depends on which series. It's implied that progress is based on science and not "backwards lines of thinking"

[@Ensign_Cthulhu]

9:33 What the ever loving fuck. "Their tradition has no fun books..." Our tradition is THE ENTIRE WESTERN LITERARY CANON, dating back to the Roman writers whose works still exist and extending today into science fiction with similar themes. He really knows how to mischaracterize a group of people he doesn't like! No, Middle Earth isn't Narnia (and I'm grateful that it isn't). But an atheist, even a secret one, would have written a very different book.

[@justincicconi759]

This fool probably thinks all Christians are like Ned Flanders from The Simpsons.

[@officialtbhoops]

Not a coincidence that the most impactful and influential stories of all time have Christian themes and undertones (LOTR, Narnia, Harry Potter, etc.).

[@Marinanor]

I don't know if HP does, but to b e honest I haven't read it. ::shrug:: But you're probably right.

[@doltBmB]

he admitted himself that at first it wasn't intended to be, but that he slowly realized that his faith was influencing his writing, and he decided to embrace it

[@arnowisp6244]

Symbolism Happens is what Jonathan Pageau another on YT would call that. Basically. It happens because our Conciousness is part of Reality so Patterns starting to Appear in Writing and stories even Subconciously.