Tolkien's Legendarium IV Q&A | Livestream (August 2024)

[@TheRedBook]

This stream pretty much happened by accident as my members-only stream was set to public instead of private! Despite the chaos it ended up being a lengthy stream with some really great questions I was able to share my thoughts on. Thanks to everyone who took part! ► Timestamps: 0:00 - Members-only stream fail 10:00 - Intro Screen 12:38 - Start of stream 15:34 - Rings of Power - Discussion 24:17 - Witch-king - Thoughts on his original nature 29:36 - Rings of Power - Unlikeable characters 38:00 - Who were the Rings made for? 49:00 - The Death of Miriel 52:38 - Rings of Power - Galadriel & Feanor? 55:20 - Witch-king - Ambition & evil 56:48 - Gil-galad as High King 01:01:52 - Why wasn't Arnor reestablished after Angmar's defeat? 01:05:00 - Why was Saruman Head of the Order? (Thoughts on Gandalf/Saruman) 01:23:27 - "Loremasters" & scholars 01:33:08 - What if The Silmarillion happened? 01:38:29 - Saruman & Sauron 01:43:10 - "Valinorean Stature" Gandalf & Saruman's position 01:47:44 - The complexity of the Legendarium 01:51:31 - Technological anachronisms in Tolkien 01:56:03 - Thoughts on the Tale of Adanel 02:04:00 - Ulmo/Eru/The Music of the Ainur & the Free will of Men 02:12:48 - Were the Silmarils imprinted with Feanor's personality? 02:20:41 - Why wasn't Saruman offered Narya? 02:26:33 - INTERMISSION 02:29:04 - What is "Everlasting Darkness" (Oath of Feanor) 02:37:05 - Melkor & Sauron's jealousy (Thoughts on Orcs and creation) 02:44:00 - Digital Tolkien Project 02:48:13 - Orcs - More thoughts on their creation 02:52:35 - The Tolkien Society 03:01:00 - Why did Sauron join Melkor? 03:11:30 - Orcs - More thoughts on their nature 03:16:03 - Tolkien's relationship with other mythologies 03:19:39 - Is it "Tolkien" if he didn't write it? 03:24:20 - Orcs - Their reliance on Dark Lords 03:27:23 - Outro / Thanks!

[@WhoIsCalli]

Hey Steven, I know this may have been intended for a membership only stream. But I’m glad I got to listen in. Love your analysis, thank you 🧝‍♂️

[@Davlavi]

Great live stream.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

Thx for making it public I wish I could stay longer but I needed to leave in the middle of the stream

[@EricGasz69420]

The first part of the Andy serkis silmarillion is pretty tough but once you get into the years of trees it’s pretty good. Apologies for missing the stream!

[@LifeofHum]

Amazing!! Thank you so much

[@themagicman225]

My favorite Middle Earth channel by far

[@azronger7214]

❤

[@istari0]

Well, however it came about, I really enjoyed the livestream!

[@Enerdhil]

Not many comments here. This will not get those algorithms to send prospective viewers this way.😞

[@Irish_Pete]

Got lucky

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Regarding unlikeable characters: it's ok for characters to be unlikeable, if that makes sense within the universe. Thackeray's Vanity Fair, for example. Honestly, I don't remember much of the plot, but I remember vividly how I felt about it. In the whole book there wasn't a single likeable character. Not a single one! The only exception was Dobbin, and he was a weirdo by the standards of that society. But then, Thackeray must have intended for his characters to be unlikeable, to showcase that society! I wonder how Payne & McKay feel about their characters. If, like you said, this is their idea of "strong female lead" (and incidentally, their version of Miriel is, imo, every bit as unlikeable as Galadriel), then Idk. I was going to say that I couldn't imagine any unlikeable characters in Tolkien's universe, that that just doesn't seem to fit with his aesthetics, and this set me thinking. Yes, there were characters I disliked in various degrees whenever I read about them. Thingol, Aldarion and Erendis, especially Erendis, to name a few. But then, "characters I dislike" obviously isn't the same as "unlikeable characters". Would be interesting to hear your views about whether or not it could have been possible for Tolkien to intentionally write unlikeable characters. Why, even people like Ted Sandyman, Saeros, Eöl and Maeglin don't come across as unlikeable/annoying.

[@TheRedBook]

There's definitely a difference between having unlikeable characters (for a reason) and having unlikeable characters due to what I would say is bad writing. I've read books or watched tv shows/movies where characters are unlikeable but you are engaged to see what happens to them or to just witness the unfolding drama around how unlikeable they all are. My comment about Galadriel, or Miriel as you say, is that I (assume) they are supposed to be likeable. The "strong female lead" we have both mentioned, heeding their own wisdom, not accepting nonsense from anyone, forging their own path. Good writers can make it work but they both just seem brash and irritating. Always having a comeback to what someone else says (Galadriel and Elrond scene), fighting against ALL authority (The way they have written Gil-galad to be some sort of antagonist of Galadriel). It will only work if they are writing an arc where they develop into better people later, which they both should be, but that remains to be seen since only 1 season has happened. I don't see that though because they see Galadriel as being full of "piss and vinegar", meaning "strengh" and "energy" - the writers see the Galadriel they have written in a positive light. Unlikeable is subjective though. I really like Feanor, are we meant to like him? I still understand the atrocities and condemn them but he's such an interesting character. I don't hate Grima Wormtongue, or Eol, or Maeglin but they are all despicable in their own ways - well written characters. I think it's because Tolkien is able to create faults in characters related to some fall, they were once good, something happened, some circumstance. Even the most evil of characters like Morgoth weren't always so evil. And since we are so invested in the world and the writing, these despicable characters are 'interesting' and we can hate them while still liking them. Almost like saying a character we would find annoying or unlikeable would be a poorly written character in this world. Maybe that's why so many hate Tom Bombadil while many others love him...

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

@@TheRedBook Now you mention him, I realized how distinct a personality he has. Yes, he is ridiculous, nonsensical, light-hearted, hospitable, but he is also very masterful, stands for his own ("Don't you crush my lilies!") and probably is not to be made fun of. Love him or hate him for this, but he has a character. Or take Aragorn: there's so much more to him than the archetypal hero. For example, he has at least one moment where he angers the reader (or me, at least) by being rather arrogant and rude to Barliman. In that scene in Bree I am totally team Barliman, but I can see why Aragorn acts like that. Is he annoyed at the light-heartedness of people in general and it's just Barliman who happens to be there at that moment? Is he bitter? Does he feel lonely and unappreciated? Talk about "archetypal" or "one-dimensional" characters.

[@Enerdhil]

Did Galadriel and Celeborn's followers build the infrastructure that later became Annúminas?

[@TheNorrlander]

You should do some sort of collab with The Critical Drinker, perhaps discussing the decline of the archetypal stories in modern society, as they've gotten infected with the ideological pandering. Just an idea. Might be a way to reach more people.

[@TheRedBook]

Critical Drinker really just talks about films/tv and doesn't know much about Tolkien's works. That's what I am interested in discussing.

[@TheNorrlander]

@@TheRedBook Figured you might be neighbors or something... I just figured giving a Tolkien scholar's take on how modern adaptations have deviated from Tolkien's vision, could be one point of convergence, and such crossover might lead to more exposure. Merely an idea. Depends on what the goals are.

[@TheRedBook]

@TheNorrlander based on his accent I think he lives about 40 minutes from where I'm staying 😅 . But yeah, I don't know if I'm right for his audience and I'm a tiny channel compared to his.