Tolkien's Legendarium II Q&A | Livestream (April 2023)

[@johns1625]

Every time a person asks why they didn't just fly the eagles to mount Doom, a mosquito gets its wings 😂

[@sarahgould5435]

Seriously! I've never understood why so many people miss the part where a) the Eagles have their families in the penthouse of an *orc-infested* apartment complex and b) the whole point of the expedition is to *not* broadcast to Sauron exactly where the Ring is and what they are doing with it by, say, *sending it into his backyard on the backs of Giant Frickin' Eagles.*

[@johnhutt634]

When people wonder about the seeming tension between Morgoth's desire to annihilate everything and Sauron's desire to order all things they are assuming that Sauron had full access to the mind and insight into the desires of Morgoth, and I don't assume that he did.

[@Deranu]

Are you saying Morgoth would LIE? To his good friend Sauron? I agree 100%

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude thanks

[@Enerdhil]

Come on KZbin! Get those algorithms moving prospective subs to The Red Book!! He just needs a few more to reach 30K!! Please!🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@Tharpyboy]

Thanks!

[@ImagesOfAustin]

Since your a tolkien guy, probably the most thorough and in depth I've seen on youtube, I could make a topic suggestion. That topic is "Best renditions of tolkien's song verse in media." In other words, who took his songs, or poems really, and put them to actual music the best? My personal vote is the rankin and bass cartoon adaptations. Those songs are actually really well done.

[@bruttus11]

If you do make a video on Tom, could you give your thoughts on his importance in giving Frodo hope. I think this is the most significant element of Bombadil in the fellowship. He is the only example Frodo has of someone unaffected by the ring, and having this example early in his journey gives him hope that, if he stays true of heart, he might be able to resist it also. When discussing the ring with Gandalf about bilbo, he is told here also that true of heart can resist the ring, but having an example of someone completely unaffected by the ring I think gives Frodo hope that he and can resist. This Hope he carries with him through most of the rest of the books

[@Hero_Of_Old]

Very true. I think thats primarily the point of Tom, he represents that, when you are pure of heart and have no desire for power, you can't be corrupted.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Fascinating analytical commentary as ever. I'd love to hear one or more of the more knowledgable Tolkien cognoscenti offering their observations of Sauron's apparent absence from the Undying Lands. I get the feeling that he fell under Melkor's tutelage long before the Valar ever came to Aman and he remained either in Angband awaiting his evil master.

[@zcsknzfanz]

Hope all is well with you. Haven't seen any new content in a bit, so reaching out hoping you see this and saying your fans are missing you

[@chuckstein4455]

One thing people omit from the race question on Tolkien is that the peoples of Númenor find parallels in our Mediterranean/Anatolian/Egyptian peoples nowadays.

[@Hero_Of_Old]

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and whether you like the original conceptions of the legendarium e.g ælfwine, the cottage of lost play etc forgot to ask on the stream!

[@deckarde4919]

Tolkien's Legendarium 2: Electric Bogaloo

[@beegnutz]

Nice long video! Hopefully catch the next one live. I was actually down your neck of the woods enjoying the sun all week💪

[@Enerdhil]

Perhaps Morgoth mated with a crocodile to create the race of Dragons 🤪

[@enocescalona]

thanks a lot for making this QnA asks. I hope you someday can explore if the Dark Lords actually would call themselves the very names people insulted them with (Gorthaur/Sauron and Morgoth). Apparently the Mouth called Mairon, Sauron, correct? Maybe it is innacurate and only movie only.

[@Tharpyboy]

More live streams! I play them after usually but love them

[@radagastthefool6661]

Still waiting for the Old Tom video!😢

[@chefitaly7339]

I’d love to shoot the breeze about Tolkien with you. You are insightful and you play guitar

[@Davlavi]

Nice stream.

[@LifeofHum]

Thank you so much ❤

[@Enerdhil]

I had always assumed that the Ringwraiths needed their garb to take physical shape, meaning they can't touch things without being clothed. I am probably wrong, but it answers that early question.

[@TheRedBook]

That's a very common misconception. The cloaks of the Ringwraiths are just cloaks, they aren't magical cloaks. If a Ringwraith stood before you without a cloak, you'd still bump into him. When Gandalf speaks of "giving shape to their nothingness" he really does mean being able to see that which most wouldn't be able to see.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook I am not sure if I remember your answer to the question that was asked but are you saying that the fear that goes before the Nazgul would make it impossible for them to sneak up on someone in their invisible state and steal the Ring?

[@johns1625]

​@@Enerdhil They aren't always terrifying like that. In fact as Frodo and the others are leaving the Shire they see one of the Nazgul speaking with Sam's father, who didn't seem afraid at all. Seems to be a controllable terror, but their voices are still harsh and laboured

[@Enerdhil]

@@johns1625 Yes. You are right. That said the question asked to explain why the Nazgul did not use their invisible form to sneak up on Frodo and take the Ring looks better and better.

[@Enerdhil]

@@johns1625 My main issue is that Men are mortal and have hröar and fëar. When Men die, their spirits leave their bodies, find their way to the Halls of Mandos, chill for a short time, and then head somewhere that only Eru knows about. So, how can Nazgul NOT have hröar and yet exist in Arda? It should be impossible. Even Gollum had his original hröa for over 500 years. I think a fëa from a man can linger in Arda, but it cannot interact with the physical world, only the spiritual. YET the Ringwraiths can. So Sauron has the power to overturn a basic law of life and death established for Men by Eru Iluvatar Himself? Sauron alone has the power to deny "the gift" to these nine men who wore Rings of Power? If the Nazgul had their original, but corrupted hröar, they could be just as terrifying and equally as indomitable. So gravity affects them and they are seemingly slow in spirit form.

[@TheRealGuillote]

You asked for fantasy recomendations, what do you think about asoiaf?

[@sainiharika]

Soo awesome

[@eudorius]

Is Glaurung a sentient being and if yes how did he become so? Or it was always a Maia maybe?

[@Enerdhil]

Celebrimbor remade the Elessar for Galadriel. By all accounts it DID help Galadriel keep her realm from fading to "some extent" until Galadriel could replace it with Nenya. I think he could and did put some of his own power in the Three Elven Rings, plus Sauron's power was absolutely within those Rings.

[@rimservices]

Elrond specifically stresses there is no power of Sauron in the Three, just the technology he shared and co-developed

[@Enerdhil]

@@rimservices That is impossible. The Elven Rings are not modern devices. Sauron's connection to the Rings is in the material made in their construction. Sauron must have poured his essence into the material that became the various Rings of Power. It wasn't a cellphone/wifi/shortwave radio signal that enabled him to feel that Elves were wearing those three Rings. It was his own power/essence/ëala in those Rings.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

I think Tolkien created kind of powerscaling for Maiar too. He refers to the likes of Sauron,Melian,Eonwe,Osse and Olorin as great maiar while Balrogs,Istari seems to be mid tier ones. High tier elves and Boldogs seems to be lesser maiar etc. Allthough I agree that not being applied to combat I disagree Fingolfin would beat Sauron in the Third Age even with it tho😶.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@Gwaihir the Windlord High Tier elves=low tier Maiar in power

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

@Gwaihir the Windlord I see. I never intended to say smth like that but if there is an error in my comment that would be because of misunderstanding caused of me.

[@TheRedBook]

I'm not talking about authority or stature but the comic book approach to "Power levels" . "This figure couldn't *beat* this figure because this figure is of this race", etc. It's a childish way to view the Legendarium. Olorin is wiser than Sauron but Sauron is of greater Valinorean stature. That's far more interesting than "This guy wins because power levels".

[@Enerdhil]

Here is my question for the next Q&A : Did Sauron actually create the virus that became the Great Plague, or was it something that Sauron saved from the First Age when Morgoth created it? Or was the plague just poison?

[@TheRedBook]

You'd need to ask it on the Livestream itself.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Sorry. I am usually available when you love stream, but KZbin never notified me.

[@Chessxx1]

When is the next live?

[@johnmooers5594]

A seeming gap in the Legendarium is which Elves were the original bearers of the 16 Great Rings?

[@Enerdhil]

I don't think those Rings were ever distributed. It seems really stupid that they made all those Rings only to put them in the closet for decades, but that is likely what happened.

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil I don't think so. Sauron's plan was to ensnare the Elves through the ones wearing the other Rings of Power. If no one was wearing them that plan fails right away. I suspect they all had wearers even before Sauron/Annatar left Eregion.

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 Maybe, but there is no mention of anyone wearing Rings of Power except for Celebrimbor and two of his smiths from the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. When Sauron put on the one Ring, only those guys knew about it. Also, all the sixteen Rings were hidden by the time Sauron captured and tortured Celebrimbor, so did he gather back all those Rings? No way. They were never being used.

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil I suspect those three Elves wore the 3 Elven Rings and were the ones who actually detected Sauron when the latter tried to use the One Ring. At that point the 16 were hidden away and the 3 were distributed with 1 going to Galadriel and 2 going to Gil-Glad, who gave 1 to Círdan. But none of the 19 were being worn at that point.

[@johnmooers5594]

@@istari0 The Silmarillion is clear the Elves wore the Rings - all of them, the first 16 and the later Three. When Sauron placed the One on his finger "the Elves were aware of him, and knew him (to be Sauron), and then in anger and fear took off their rings and hid them." Once Sauron was refused the Rings he demanded and came upon Eregion with open war, Celebrimbor locked up the 16 (or 15 in some versions as he gives one to Durin) but sent the Three away to "the wise" whom we know as Galadriel, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad. After the seige of Ost-in-Edhil goes badly, Celebrimbor is tortured until he reveals the location of the 16, but dies before revealing the location of the Three. Celebrimbor then becomes Middle Earth's most gruesome banner. Sauron takes the 16 back to Mordor after his defeat in the Battle of the Gwathló (SA 1700). The rest we know. It seems reasonable that Sauron intended that Elven nobility bear the 16 Great Rings so he could control them. Gil-Galad, Cirdan, Celeborn, and Celebrimbor are the obvious four, but would Amdir and Oropher also be included? Likely if Sauron wished to dominate ALL Elves remaining in Middle Earth, but that accounts for only six, or 12 if each "Lord" and their heir got one. Thoughts?

[@meteosurreal]

2:16:50 Stupid Haters.

[@gandalf4751]

The lord of the rings 😍😍😍😍😍😍

[@NFSox]

I always assumed that had the Valar participated in War of Wrath, then Sauron would have gone to one of them, and not Eonwe, to ask for pardon.

[@TheRedBook]

Exactly, unless he was really scared of them, or they left when they took Melkor and left Eonwe to deal with things. Still, I think those are weak arguments. I'm quite sure they weren't in the battle itself.

[@Enerdhil]

Maybe Ossë is an Ainu who warranted distrust.🤔

[@Enerdhil]

I don't know. The more I think about Sauron "accessing" the power of his remote Ring, the more my head spins.😵‍💫 Surely this power must be able to travel from the One Ring to him in the physical world. This must be a vector, meaning Sauron should at least be able to know from which direction that power is flowing to him. To say Sauron has all the power of his current ëala PLUS all the rest of the power of his ëala in the Ring a thousand miles away is just wishful thinking or lore-splaining unless that power can physically move from the Ring into Sauron. Am I wrong about this?

[@TheRedBook]

You're applying physics to mythology. As I keep saying to people, Sauron wasn't diminished when he didn't carry the ring. It makes no sense to think of him that way. He just didn't benefit from its power if he didn't carry it.

[@istari0]

Just speculating here but perhaps it happens through the Unseen world. Or this happens in a non-linear fashion.

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 Seen or unseen, there must be a vector from the physical location of the Ring to that of Sauron.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook He DIDN'T have access to the power trapped in the Ring?!

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Surely, Sauron accessed the power of the Ring to "level-up" the Witch King.

[@Enerdhil]

Actually, Manwë should have known Melkor was irredeemable after he returned to his bad ways AFTER he destroyed the Lamps. Letting Melkor walk about freely in Valinor was just stupid on his part. I understand his character is "naive" and does not grasp the concept of evil, but after the destruction of the Lamps ruins Tulkas and Nessa's honeymoon, you'd think he would understand that Melkor was violent. But alas! He did not.

[@Enerdhil]

Is it possible that Sauron did not trust the Nazgul carrying the One Ring and so the Witch King was told to stab the Ring Bearer with a Morgul blade so that he himself could bring the Ring back to Sauron?

[@rimservices]

No, their will was completely dominated by Sauron, and he kept their Rings - part of the reason he sent them to fetch the One

[@Enerdhil]

@@rimservices The Ring has an addictive/seductive power of its own. I don't see why Sauron wouldn't at least hedge his bet with the Nazgul. Better safe than sorry.

[@TheRedBook]

Doesn't matter about the seductive nature of the ring, we are told in Unfinished Tales that they don't have that will of their own to defy Sauron in that way. If they found the ring, they'd take it back to Sauron.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Of course, they would take the One Ring back to Sauron. They did it every time before..... Oh, wait!

[@TheRedBook]

@@Enerdhil - Yeah, all those times they held the ring then didn't take it back. Oh wait.

[@Enerdhil]

It still bothers me that Nazgul are invisible. Either they are fëar that are granted physical form that is NOT hröar ORR their hröar faded to the point of invisibility but still exists. I guess if I have to choose one of those, I would pick the latter one. I think a problem exists because we have Gollum, who kept his hröa the entire time. I refuse to believe that Sauron's stinkin' Ring has transcendent power over Eru's gift to Men. When the hröa dies, the fëa must leave Middle Earth and go to Mandos. Giving the Nazgul a pass because of the power of Sauron's Ring is ridiculous. They must have their hröar in some form! #loredawgwithabone

[@KizzMyAbs]

Have you tried reading the wheel of time series?

[@TheRedBook]

I certainly have tried :D . I won't be returning to it!

[@KizzMyAbs]

@@TheRedBook wow surprising. I’m a huge Tolkien fan and I love the WOT series