Tone King Sky King Part 2 : Why? Just Why?

[@npet6842]

I long ago lost all faith in the cost of something being indicative of the quality that you're getting . Amps , guitars , cameras , hifi , speakers , cars , tractors , tv , refrigerators , ......... everything really . It takes a reasonable amount of research and scepticism to not be disappointed !

[@fatShowPony]

Great video, as an EE seeing PCB design in particular that bad really grinds my gears. Reminds me of a buy to sell product that a business i was working for was getting me to evaluate. The clearance over an isolation barrier was required to be 5mm from memory (for EN60335 compliance which they claimed it already had - so other customers of theirs were probably selling it). It was considerably less to start with so after them not believing me I had a call with them highlighting the clauses in the standard. They came back with a design where it was 4.9mm, I had to get a bit annoyed and explain it was a safety requirement not a nice to have.

[@aquilarossa5191]

So many channels promote this brand like it is the best thing since sliced bread. Good marketing. Poor design. Companies should be hiring this fella as a design consultant during prototyping. Make the amps actually live up to the price tag.

[@hod8931]

Almost bought one of these until I saw the video on the first sky king. I thought they were still handwired. Now im concerned about the soldano 30watt slo i bought. But I just took 2 Fender handwired deluxe reverbs back to sweetwater for having issues brand new. Smh

[@mattg082]

Dude, I did the same and went through many high end amps. They seem all prone to some issue, and need a tech look day one to get ahead of any issues. I did it on one of these sky kings after 3 bad ones. It’s been pretty good the last 2 months, and made sure to get the warranty backing of my vendor. Everything was loose on it, and needed to be tighten up. Also swapped those tubes and tested day one. It took all that for it to work out. Should have just worked fine out the box 🤦‍♂️. But getting ahead, and getting my tech to check before sealing the deal was worth it.

[@Curlysblues]

man, I've studied a lot of amps although I don't have a good electronic background, and I really respect this kind of troubleshooting. I'd like to see Tone King address your comments, because as you said, the amp sounds good.

[@ruffryder13]

It's cool that the solder mask is black so one cannot see hot spots before they fail.

[@tedmich]

I am entirely convinced that you have a bright and sunny disposition Lyle! But rain makes the flowers grow... ; )

[@adriangas_]

That arcing tube socket reminds me a Marshall DSL 100 design, where someone put bias resistors right next to the PI anode supply with a tiny tiny gap between the traces, because it looks nice to have all the resistors aligned and evenly spaced. That, plus heat from the power tubes, plus conductive pcb material.

[@jutukka]

I have seen amps where grid stopper resistors have been placed far away from grids just to put them nicely in military order next to other resistors. But who cares about parasitic oscillations etc. if those resistors LOOK nice (inside the amp where nobody cannot see them) when put side by side in a perfect line. 😂

[@vincentl.9469]

@@jutukka It could be that with the passing of time, there will be fewer and fewer people who understand good tube amp design...Fender have now replicated their tube models with solid state

[@6thwatergateplumber]

If it were mine, I would ship it back to Tone King or take it back to the seller - tell them all of the issues and get my money back.

[@PsionicAudio]

The owner tried and tried to get a response from Tone King. I asked about warranty before doing anything.

[@mattg082]

@@PsionicAudioimportant question. If they are the original owner, shouldn’t TK swap or take this amp in? They did one for me in February. The Limited Lifetime Warranty is only for the original buyer. It pretty much states only OG buyer can claim warranty repair/service. And that any soldering repairs would void it. But sometimes I guess no choice here? After seeing your fix, it’s not really a tech responsibility I think. You are just very good at what you do. Most techs I don’t know how far they get with this. If less than a year old, Tone King should def repair this.

[@peanutavalon]

Tone king does not return emails. I had a new Royalist with hum and squealing issues. Emailed them several times on the issue. No response so I sent it back to Musicians Friend. I had high hopes but the issues turned me off to the brand

[@bobboitt3126]

Title on this should have been: "Polishing a Turd" 😂

[@samuelmorris1294]

Working on these amps, I've noticed that there is poor power supply filtering. This almost certainly contributes to the hum.

[@mattg082]

As of July 10th about 3 months after a new set of tubes, my amp in Pentode is working great. But I did notice some of the UL noise is back. It’s not unplayable and doesn’t scale with volume. So if not up close to the amp, and playing at volume 2 you can’t notice. But sitting on the floor next to it if playing low volume, It’s def there. It feels like I’m this amp you can def get one in, fall in love with the sound and play on Pentode all day. But if you want Ultralinear, just be prepared if not a brand new 3 months or less matched set of 6L6 that you luck out with…your range can vary. At this point I noticed a lot of stores back selling B-Stock on Reverb. Like AMS and a few others for a discount at mint. Been keeping my eye what BAD is going to do. Because honestly they need to fix customers UL issues of a redesign or fix is in place. I’ve noticed less of these amps in the wild on current sale in US. So I do wonder if they are working on it, and scaled back stock. I’m taking to a few of the KZbinrs that use these, and work with BAD. As they get new stuff, if they may know anything. It’s kind of at that point I think they know a warranty fix may need to happen. Everyone they sell will have an issue, but who use UL mode and reports it…who knows. Many may just play Pentode and play till the wheels fall off. But these things are mostly noticeable for the very thing the advertise. Low attenuated home amps . UL does not work great in the way. But live, the volume by 1 1/2 is loud enough it’s not an apparent issue. Think whatever you may from that. You were right saying it’s an imperfect fix you performed. The amp at least in UL, is an imperfect design that could use some help. As for the arcing and other issues, time will only tell as it’s a Limited Lifetime Warranty. You just can’t have a tech work on the board. So far padding, or tightening things is fine. But warranty is out once a solder iron hits the board. So haven’t asked my amp tech yet, especially after seeing what you had to go through. It obvious it’s a big job, and BAD/TK would be the person to contact if it gets really bad. Until then it’s a fine sounding amp, but this stuff just irks me.

[@FryetteAmps]

A little ripple showing up at the output in a UL design is not unusual or necessarily wrong. Keeping a lid on ripple in this case typically requires more precise matching of power tubes, and it's also very helpful if the power supply is choke filtered. I don't know if that's the case here, but I'd guess not because it would be applied to the plate supply making it a large and expensive part. Lack of screen grid resistors is also not unusual since current limiting is provided by the primary winding. But having them does improve stability if the amp is prone to parasitic oscillation without them. One thing that is definitely not a fix for ripple induced output hum is adding screen resistors or increasing screen resistor value. That's a bandaid that only partially works at the expense of output power. The worst offense here is perhaps offering a "feature" for features sake without adequately considering how that feature performs under more intense public scrutiny.

[@PsionicAudio]

Hey Steve. I agree, the screen grid increase for UL mode is a bandaid. I tried three well matched pairs of 6L6s with no change in hum.

[@PsionicAudio]

Oh, and the screen grids DO reduce hum in UL mode. But still, anything over 1K should not be needed. I think I’ll get the owner’s permission to just leave the 1Ks. They’ll improve tube life in pentode mode and if UL still has some hum, well, don’t use UL mode.

[@FryetteAmps]

@@PsionicAudio Not suprised. Ever check the hum on a Super Twin? Not that that's what I'd consider a well-executed UL design either, though it does have screen resistors. A Dynaco MKIII OTOH is a much better UL example, with no screen resistors and a choke filtered B+. It's quiet, not picky about matching and sounds great.

[@PsionicAudio]

Oh, and no choke. 10W 10K between plate and screen. 50uf filtering on plate, 23.5uf on screen.

[@PsionicAudio]

Well, at least UL Twins were fixed bias with the bias balance pot so you could dial out the hum. No such joy on this CB thing.

[@kbirridia]

FWIW, a *very* slight hum was normal for ultralinear mode on the pre-BAD Sky King I owned. IIRC there's no negative feedback in that mode as well.

[@mattg082]

Yea I have a working one and it’s very small. I did return a few that sounded like they were gonna blow up. But got one that worked right, and my tech got it day one to tighten things up, inspect the board. It has just a little noise in UL, but not the dreaded I call fog horn issue. But yes it does seem normal to have a small amount, even on the old ones. Just ambitious project I guess, and they brought it back in December 2018. So only one year on production before Covid hit. And then a fire at the warehouse on top of that. So really 2021-now it’s been sorta out, in small batches every 3-4 months at vendors. I think the revision says D on the board. So 4th version i guess? Maybe they have been revising the new one yearly. The Imperial MK2 had been in production since the 90s. Not much has changed on that one, outside poor filtering at times. Sky King really seems like a new prototype, and I own one. The Bartel version is way different build vs the new flat chunky PCB board. But still similar layout with the UL it seems. Thing is I doubt most people even use the UL feature on old or new. So it probably goes unnoticed by many players, unless it gets really bad and blows something.

[@dimbulb5549]

Do you know what vintage or provenance Sky King this is? I believe they're currently built by Boutique Amps Distribution (BAD) in Los Angeles (Commerce, CA actually) and when they rolled out their line of Tone King Amps about 3-4 years ago (?) there may have been some re-design at that point. I've got a Nov 2016 Sky King build when they were built at Premier Builders Guild up in Rohnert Park, CA north of San Francisco Bay near Santa Rosa. I'm wondering if BAD ushered in some re-design of the PCBs and layout since the Premier days (2016)

[@johnwilliamson467]

In multi meters you see the air gap around the high voltage input . A very proper solution to a lack of testing of designs . Proper training would on a good day including high voltage and rf differences in PCB design . It not like this is new a well know effect and problem with a clear fix since the 1960's for glass boards (PCB) . Well at least it does show up in transmitters and vacuum tube test equipment from that period. If low voltage digital is all you work with then the lack of knowledge will let you get by. When working with high voltage and it effects on PCBs you will get bit for not knowing better. Interesting to see if in the future the board gets a revised fix. Hope they did not buy too many of this PCB. Love the comment about he on the designer spot on .

[@SirLoinMagroin]

How disappointing it would be to have paid so much expecting a quality product to only find out it has inherent problems that will eventually result in catastrophic failure if not properly addressed. We can only hope Tone King cleans up its act going forward on future models.

[@BradsGuitarGarage]

Yeah, but then they'd need to learn how to implement ground plane islands. And that's a whole other short key.

[@75YBA]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@PsionicAudio]

Brad knew everything I was going to say once I showed that arc on pin 4. “300VAC and can’t provide more than X current without burning up? We need to put ground a mm away!”

[@GIBKEL]

“Houston….we have a problem”

[@ramilrodriguez8340]

Hello. I’ve been watching your videos for a while. Great informative videos. I have one of those on my bench for the second time. First it came because of the power tubes cathode resistors and cathode bypass cap problem you showed on a previous video on that amp plus an arching on the board on one of the power tubes pin 3. That was about two months ago. Now it’s arching on one side of D1 on the board. Have you been able to get a schematic? Thanks.

[@mattg082]

Do you feel even if you get a working one, this board is just prone to failure at some point? I have one and returned 3 of them for the UL hum, and power tube/fuse blow issue. Last one I got I took those tubes out asap! Then brought ti my tech before finalizing the deal. He found everything in the amp was loose. And said it contributed to the noise, and could have caused future issues. He fixed all that up, and it’s been fine the last 2 months. The speaker was causing some rattle, and for now some felt is up against it. Said it’s a good speaker, but the liner of the outside was dried up? So that may be a warranty claim soon for me. I made sure to get full backing from my vendor as well. As they have a 3 year handling of this stuff, and then TK has the lifetime warranty. I suspect if anything happens it will within that 3 year time. In which Sweetwater would handle it on their side…so I don’t have to deal with BAD. They are hard to deal with over there, and kept blaming me and got yelled at 🤦‍♂️. I saw they were hiring for new customer support. So may be a reason they aren’t getting back to anyone? No idea

[@ramilrodriguez8340]

@@mattg082 well, I don’t know if Tone king has addressed the board issue at some point.I can say that the board on the amp I’m working on has some design issues. First some caps too close to high wattage resistors and second not enough separation between board coper lines and board ground. Arching was happening on one of the power tubes pin 3. Now D1 (rectifier for -50v tremolo circuit) is arching. On psionic amp rectifier tube is starting to arch… If your amp has one of the same boards it will eventually fail. If Tone King made an upgraded board for latter built amps, then you may have a better one. I don’t know.

[@mattg082]

@@ramilrodriguez8340 got yah these are mostly 2022 built amps. So I think revision D or F it says on the board. Well, in any case with the Lifetime warranty within reason. I hope they honor it and swap boards if needed. I’d hate for them to revoke warranty over anything they can find. My tech had to re glue the backplate on, as the factory glue didn’t cure and rattled at loud volumes. I pretty much got TAD 6L6WGC tube swaps with burn in, felt liner on boarding areas to make it more quiet, PT/OT and everything tighten up. Also remounted the reverb tank and cables. I do think I have one of these issue amps maybe. But it sounds good and no issues so far. If it’s fails I predict would be first 3 years. I made sure my tech did no work that could void warranty. Just some handy work and extras. I will for sure hold Sweetwater to the 3 year guarantee, and Tone King to the Lifetime if needed. A known flaw or recall is just that, if enough of these video and threads happen with a reversion number.

[@ramilrodriguez8340]

@@mattg082 the board in the amp on my bench says Rev D

[@mattg082]

@@ramilrodriguez8340 from what I know that is the newest revision. And the one I have that were made in 2022. Parts may have been upgraded and vary….but the layout is still the layout of the amp. I guess time will tell! I play it every day, and crank it on weekends. It takes time to catch up. But most all the amps from 2022 and in the wild now are probably D. But now it’s been some time, maybe they have updated? Very interested to find out if they do in the future.

[@75YBA]

You and Brad are like Carl Sagan and Brian Cox for amplification. Always all the best from the Canadian Riviera! The Great Lakes! 😂🇨🇦

[@Herfinnur]

Who's Brad?

[@Andy_Yates]

@@Herfinnur I believe he's referring to Brad's Guitar Garage. Another great tech channel

[@Herfinnur]

@@Andy_Yates I just checked it out ; HTF didn't I know about Brad!?

[@GuitarJawn]

I really liked the Tone King and the Imperial when I tried them. Bummer

[@jefffree6990]

Another fantastic job! Quote of the Day: " I say "he" not because all engineers are male but because males are really bad at stopping and asking for directions"

[@voxpathfinder15r]

This is what you expect from a Chinese monoprice amplifier for $229!!! But I feel for that money if it lasts for 6 months it’s still worth it! Going to check mine if there is hum, put on the scope and check the waveform as well

[@marekgitarzysta5193]

There's a "boutique" builder here in Poland, whose name I won't mention, I bought one of his amps some time ago, and thanks to his lack of basic knowledge I became interested in amp designs and build a couple myself. It was terrifying to find out all the basic design flaws in the amp. And this is saying me, an amateur in the field. All I'm saying: boutique is no guarantee of high quality.

[@adamwatson6916]

I don't find things like boutique wound pickups sound better then mainstream staples like Gibson pickups Seymour Duncan or Dimarzio .. same goes with guitar Amp/cabinet speakers. Everyone says you need to buy scumback or Weber monotone or tone tubby to get the old school pre Rola celestion sound because they claim you cannot get that sound with modern celestion G12M or G12H reissues but they sound pretty vintage to me and I don't find the boutique speakers sound any closer .

[@ratt669]

Laboga?

[@nedim_guitar]

It's amazing how even so called butique builders that make expensive amps can make mistakes that you just shouldn't make when designing and building an amp.

[@8sigreg]

The original design made by Mark Bartel was an entirely different beast, it was completely hand-wired with spotless point-to-point wiring. It’s a shame what the new owners have done to it.

[@johanhansson4574]

I would guess that UL needs more first stage ripple filtering since the screen grids doesn't have the pi filter in that mode. Doesn't bigger screen grid resistors just reduce the amplification aka the hum problem isn't solved at all?

[@PsionicAudio]

Like I said in a reply to Steve, it's a bandaid. But I'm not tearing apart and rebuilding this thing.

[@Claude77]

You might want to look for arcing in other places too, burning a 5 watt dropping resistor can't really be done by the voltage stored in the filter caps past the resistor, when the rectifier arcs, burning a resistor needs current and time.. even with a lot of filtering 40-60ųF the stored energy is not really able to roast that resistor.

[@PsionicAudio]

I’ve looked and looked. Will give it another round tomorrow. I hate mystery problems.

[@Claude77]

Just thinking out loud. What about ground plane on the back? Are we sure that resistor is pass the screens if not the whole thing would make more sense.

[@PsionicAudio]

Yeah, it’s between screens and PI. It is a double sided board but I’m not pulling it unless some other failure rears its ugly. The owner just wants it working well enough to sell with a clean conscience.

[@Claude77]

@@PsionicAudio Hope things are clearing up, could be just a roasted resistor, caps can do it but proberly over years not in a almost new amp :)

[@genetomblin2883]

Circuit boards other than maybe a well designed G10 board have a poor track record when used with vacuum tubes. I would rather see tube sockets mounted directly to the chassis and connected to a board with leads. Manufacturing costs being what they are, this often not the case.

[@gloriouspeanut]

Can you recommend a good alternative to Tone King for a Fender-style amp that wouldn't need the caps changed out like a reissue Fender?

[@mattg082]

Wow, no words. I have mine in my studio right now across the hall. It’s working fine, but had the hum issue on 3 returns(not my current one). Seems the vary per amp and I guess what happen that day. Is this bad enough to get push the warranty card, or a possible recall on these units? It seems to effect 2022 to current builds more so than any. Lovely sounding amp to me, but to put a UL feature on it that may not work sucks. I had 3 straight in a row with UL hum and one made for me they said at BAD, all had that. 1 out of 4 I had was fine. That’s how many it took, plus still had my tech look it over to prevent future issues. I did not pay 3k new…more in the 2.5k new. But this is very disappointing, and I pray my amp will keep chugging without any issues in the next few years at least. My tech told me it’s in top notch shape, and should stand the test of time…components and everything measured well.

[@somebrains5431]

In ears and amp models seem so much more attractive since I can’t grab black face fenders and jump or earlier Marshall’s for under $650 anymore. The price and quality of consumables is just depressing.

[@bradc32]

if a company is going to use circuit boards might as well just make a S.S amp

[@wbfaulk]

How much did that amp cost? I'm not sure you said. ;)

[@npet6842]

About three grand USD

[@kwgm8578]

Lyle, quick thinking there -- men don't ask for directions. 😉 The moral of the story here seems to be that not all boutique tube amps are created equally. There sure are a group of whiz-bang features. What the hell is ultralinear. It's not linear, it's not superlinear, it's even better! But, it buzzes. One more thing -- I am an engineer trained in the late 70's, early 80's, with the fancy paper to prove it. I'll confess that I have learned more about designing basic circuits with vacuum tubes from you, Uncle Doug, Aaron Lanterman, and a couple of other VJays, than I did in my 4-1/2 years of toil, sweat, and beer drinking at SFSU, in the good old days when the Earth was new, young women took an interest, and all my body parts functioned nominally.

[@richardnagamitsu1582]

Weren’t you working on a new “Best Amps Under” video?

[@PsionicAudio]

Yeah. This won’t be on it.

[@martinreid1740]

Has Mark anything to do with the design of these amps?

[@PsionicAudio]

Nope. The original design yes, but certainly not this execution. And perhaps changes were made not by him.

[@ForeverDownByLaw]

My understanding is that folks were not particularly fond of the ultra linear Fenders of the late 70's (?), why would one want the option on this amp?

[@matthewf1979]

It wasn’t the ultralinear part that people didn’t like. The overdrive tone from the gain boost is infamously bad and the lead dress is atrocious.

[@PsionicAudio]

UL Fenders can sound fantastic. Due to other issues they rarely do. The players just associated the other problems with “UL.” But it doesn’t make much sense to me here in this cathode biased amp.

[@ForeverDownByLaw]

@@PsionicAudio Thanks for the reply. I honestly had no idea.

[@tanyet]

UL in my Sky King sounds absolutely fantastic.

[@mattg082]

@@tanyet I do have to say I’ve used the mode, and it’s good for a pedal platform and high output pickups. You can get a lot of headroom and just shape your tone. Very big chunky sound! It’s a good contrast for sure when doubling tracks in the studio. Or you find the breakup in pentode happens to fast. In pentode my Les Paul will break up at 2 1/2, Telecaster it goes to 5! Using UL it pretty much negates that. But it’s so loud I run mine at 2 1/2 mic up, and roll volume a little. But man when you want that break up, it sounds very nice! Even slamming the preamp tubes with a clean boost.

[@edwardleaver7838]

Hmm... and where it Leo site his screen grid resistors? And why did he call them "screen stoppers"? Inquiring minds want to know...

[@adamscottv]

What town are you in?

[@sgt.grinch3299]

Interesting

[@liamhardison]

Do you know if this amp is a model produced after Bartel sold tone king? Do you think the quality and design changed after the sale?

[@PsionicAudio]

This is post Bartel, and yes.

[@joepeezy4sheezy]

Thoughts on two rock?

[@npet6842]

Very expensive for ordinary components . So many boutique are so .

[@sjdnw]

Hi, thats very intetesting. I was looking at a 2011 metropolitan ... Would this have the same problem ? 😅 regards Rob

[@mikekratochwill4195]

I have a 2012 Metropolitan that works just fine. Though since I moved to the state of WA and am now living in the suburbs, it hasn't really been getting much use for the last 7 years or so. Prior to that, it was getting a lot of use in the studio and live. I think Mark Bartel was involved in designing/building Tone King amps until around 2016 when Boutique Amps Distribution took over. I'm assuming maybe that's when the quality might have started to go downhill?

[@vadenk4433]

I hate to be an amp snob but this is the kinda stuff that will keep me from ever owning a PCB amp. I know they can be built well and sound great but that scenario seems to be about 1% of PCB amps on the market. Plus I like to be able to work on my amps without worrying about lifting a solder pad or breaking a brittle ribbon cable

[@PsionicAudio]

So if someone tried to give you a ‘72 Super Lead you’d say “No thanks, it’s PCB”? It’s not the materials, it’s the designer.

[@goodun2974]

@@PsionicAudio , early PCB-based Marshall's appear to be a logical progression from turret-board Marshall's, with a clean layout, wide traces and spacing, a relatively low parts count, and lots of empty space inside the chassis. Modern kitchen-sink amps with double-sided boards, high component density and complex switching are a real can of worms.

[@npet6842]

@@PsionicAudio There are always exceptions , but I like non-PCB stuff for guitar amps . Having said that , I own a Rivera Quianna 100 studio 212 and a Venus 6 112 , and they're very reliable ....... so I'm already guilty . LOL . Keep up the superb videos . I'm learning heaps , especially about my Matchless collection .

[@seanlavery2236]

I'm surprised there's no mention to both the Tone King amps and Morgan's being built under the same roof. Unless they both aren't built under Boutique Amp Distribution's roof anymore, pretty disappointing... From my understanding Dave F was running that show. That might be outdated info, but still. Time to improve quality guys. Maybe someone over there will see this and battle it out with the lawyers, accountants, and engineers to improve. Crazy man...

[@mattg082]

Oh they know over there….I’ve talked to them and also been yelled at a bit. They are def stressed out about it, and blame the customer. I have one of these amps and took my amp tech to get it all working. But I’m still holding the company to the warranty, and Sweetwater has been in the mix with the 3 year gear support…so I don’t have to talk to BAD. They just represent for me. My amp is running fine now, but def I keep a watch out. I had 3 returns on this model for the UL hum, fuse blow and power tube blow up. My tech took a look at the newest one I had, and found everything was loose. Tighten it up, and did whatever he could that doesn’t break warranty and is non destructive. So far so good the last 2 months! Big I did have to get felt up against the speaker. The rim of the 12in speaker was dried out. So that may be a warranty claim..as it rattles at loud volumes at times. We think it may be the speaker mostly with that. I paid $2500 and a 3 year no APR. i just really liked the sound of the amp. And SW did a double discount deal, as they usually only do one or the other. Plus lifetime warrant. Tech said the board tested all fine and within spec. I got those stock tubes out as well on day 1! So I did a lot of preventive measures day one, to make sure. And that worked for me so far.

[@jasonconerty2214]

What exactly is UL mode function?

[@mattg082]

Well i have one of these amps. Ultralinear is like a flat PA kind of sound. Very neutral and the break up point is insanely high. A lot of late 70s Fenders were UL. Pretty much big headroom, but you lose the sharp upper highs. It sounds very smooth and warm….very good for bluesy stuff and 50s music. But also good if you want to use it as a Pedal platform with loud volumes. I think it’s also used in some high end tube home stereo systems. Pentode mode breaks up way faster and has that character. Ultralinear just is buttery sounding on this amp, and doesn’t break up much. Let your pedals color most the tone and overdrive. This is if everything is in working order. I have the smallest tube noise in mine that’s not picked up on mic…but not the about to blow up. I did get one like that and exchanged it though. Blew a power tube in UL mode. Tone King does a lifetime warranty on these. But they seem hard to get in touch with now. I talked to them in February. So I wonder how they will deal with amps that have this issue in the wild. It’s obvious by the video, it’s no easy thing to fix if it happens. But they are still suppose to warrant it with a repair or brand new amp. I was sent a new amp, and I’m sure it’s bleeding them with all the issues. Wouldn’t be surprised if they temporarily stop production, and maybe some recalls later this year.

[@jasonconerty2214]

@@mattg082 gotcha so mainly just increased headroom?

[@mattg082]

@@jasonconerty2214 well a smooth top end as well. It doesn’t have that snappy top dynamic end we associate with a traditional Fender. It’s more even like a high end PA. Pentode mode is sharper, and more what you normally hear. Some people like UL and some people really hate it. I think it’s cool for smooth darker rhythm parts. You’ll notice most old Fender UL amps are like $600. But the BF pentode ones fetch a lot more money. I have friends that buy big Silver Face Super Reverb and Twins that are UL. They are cheap, huge and can be found cheap. Just stick a good pedal board in front and ready to go. They’ll hang with the loudest of drummers and not break up. Back then I think it was to achieve a high end sound. Pushed as the next big evolution of Fender amps. But looking back, people really liked the break up and snappy top a BF Fender does at breakup. On a UL model, you’ll have to rely more on your pedals for that. Having both options is a cool idea, and not something you see a lot of. So the Sky King is unique in a way, that you can go through a history of tones. Then you have the lead channel, that’s dirty and goes into Marshall Jtm45 and Plexi like sounds. It’s the idea of having one amp, that does a lot of different sounds.

[@Jrunkone]

Is it common for an amps fx loop to have that same hum? Ive recently got my first major amp purcahse and that hum drives me nuts.

[@russellhltn1396]

I'd like to understand what the screen resistors are doing in this situation. The symptoms you're describing makes it sound like they're acting like grid stop resistors (where the resistor works with the tube's normal capacitance to form a RC roll-off to prevent parasitic oscillations). That would explain why you need to put the resistors next to the tube. Any chance some of this issues are parasitic?

[@PsionicAudio]

Well they are lowering voltage and limiting current. I can’t explain why distance matters in this instance. But it observably does.

[@russellhltn1396]

@@PsionicAudio Ok but that distance thing makes me think there's something more than just "lowering voltage and limiting current" going on. If it was me, I'd be scoping the output. Just to make sure.

[@PsionicAudio]

I have. Nothing scary. Just hum riding the output.

[@russellhltn1396]

Question from left field: What if the output transformer taps are mis-wired? That is, the ultra-linear tap is going to the wrong tube? (Or perhaps the plate and ultra taps were switched?) I'd think you'd have a hell of a mess that a bigger screen resistor would tame (somewhat).

[@PsionicAudio]

They aren’t. But yeah, I checked. More goes into these amps than makes the video. BTW I wasn’t sure screen grids would affect the hum at all - notice in the picture they were very much temped in. It was kind of a What the Hell Mary.

[@K707OR30]

Groan king

[@goodun2974]

"Every day, in every way, I am getting better and better". The mantra repeated by Inspector Clouseau's boss, the police chief.

[@PsionicAudio]

Chief Inspector Dreyfus! “I am callink off ze attack for tonight, Cato!”

[@vincentl.9469]

@@PsionicAudio the bad design issues you highlight could get worse as with the passing of time, there will be fewer people who understand good tube amp design in the age of the Tonemaster & modelling /sampling

[@k.tucker599]

All work and no pay makes no Jack at all...

[@soundknight]

Very disappointed. I have lusted after this amp for a decade... Thank goodness I found something properly handwired and much better designed in my own country.

[@jongonzalez6917]

What did you get?

[@Paul-D]

Wonder if someone from toneking thats responsible for decisions like this would own up and maybe even ask for advice and improve future designs.

[@jamesf2918]

I highly doubt it, I’ve been emailing them since December and they have not gotten back to me. Brand new under warranty multiple problems right out of the box and they don’t give a shit.

[@mattg082]

@@jamesf2918 did you talk to the main guy over there? I did and it was bad, got yelled at after they got frustrated. I finally have a working amp, no hum and all works thanks to my local tech. But seems with every amp it varies from them. It’s a warranty so if there is a massive issue caught here….will there be a recall fix? It’s a niche amp, but I don’t know how you go y to I holding them to standards. It cost me $150 and another $100 on tubes to get it all good. I paid $2500 new, and it’s working all good now…but man what a headache. The Ultralinear hum happen on 2 I returned. Also the Imperial MK2 had a hum on some units stock with volume off. It’ll get increasingly louder the longer the amps on. Not on all but def a lack of QC. Took me number 4 Sky King and a tech to get it right.

[@ThomasD66]

"You don't need to shield a rectifier" Well yeah, but then how else are you going to justify scrimping by with less than adequate filtration?

[@stringlocker]

I think them boards are assembled somewhere else.

[@mattg082]

Maybe…I have reached out to support before and they seem baffled. Plus weren’t very pleasant with me. It took 4 amps and my own amp tech till I had one working well. Then I saw these videos and was like well….that ship sailed but it works great post my tech checking it. I’m just keeping myself updated if there is some recall or specific is site that needs attention. I took my final one to my amp tech day one. No issues since then, just some minor combo rattle ant very very loud volumes I’m getting situated. But all these bands I see using them I guess have good amp techs. They sound very good in studio and live…but it does make me question if outsourcing is going on. I was told they don’t fix amps anymore, and simply you ship and they replace.

[@stringlocker]

It doesn't seem right all these a company trying to find a cheaper way to get their amps built but they never lowered the prices they take all the profit. They never pass the savings on to the customer.

[@mattg082]

@@stringlocker if it’s anything I did not pay 3k new. Usually if you call the dealer you can get a lot knocked off. I got mine at $2500 at 3 year no APR a month ago or so. And half is payed off already. I wouldn’t pay 3k plus tax at all! Been playing mine mostly in Ultralinear all day. There is the smallest most minuscule of hum if you put your ear way up. But not there when playing, not is my mic picking it up live. I had some really bad ones though…but that was like this video a very loud consistent hum. I’m use to some tube sound in the background and very light levels. I’ve come to expect that even on a lot of hand-wired ones I tried. But the loud insane about to blow up hum is scary. I experienced that on one of these models, next day blew a tube and returned. It took my vendor doing a full day burn in test, and playing. Plus a triple box, and then I still brought it to a tech to tighten everything up, plus make sure the board was ok and good to go. Everything checked out and been enjoying it. TK customer service is not that good right now. I even saw a thing they are hiring customer support right now. So looks like they are maybe without anyone..no clue. Just know the support I got was insane and got yelled at. Guy had a meltdown on me over the phone, and had to calm him down..this was in February. Sweetwater said they’ll handle the warranty stuff, so I don’t have to talk to Tone King anymore. They have a 3 year at Sweetwater for all amps. TK is a lifetime one. So if it goes tits up, probably get a revised one if they eventually do that. So just leaning on Sweetwater, and they been good extending return, swaps for long term if anything happens.

[@jutukka]

If that amp hasn't an EL84 reverb driver with 475 VDC plate voltage, holy cow, it should be added. Wasn't that the mojo recipe from earlier years? 😉

[@PsionicAudio]

You’re thinking of the Fender Tone King, which killed EL84s as reverb drivers, were riddled with ground loops, and used dual gang 500K pots for every control to save money which somehow was not reflected in the price.

[@jutukka]

@@PsionicAudio Yes. Some owners sacrified quite a bunch of quality NOS EL84s in those amps before somebody told them that there was nothing wrong with those tubes.

[@GShockWatchFan.]

It's all garbage, not one quality and reliable amp out there. Thank you for informing us.

[@Rufko]

You're the man Lyle. You really are...but I must say you are somehow wasted spending all your life repairing crap amps fm other amp builders, which their brand name reputation became prestigious in time unjustifiably really, as you prove in your videos. They should be all selling tomatoes instead and you should rather get in the ring starting building & designing new amps of your own (just like the Excalibre) and show what can be done when you know your craft for good. Cheers and no offense Lyle!!!

[@leeinthesprings]

This is why I would never buy and amp with a printed circuit board... What a mess...

[@IamMusicNerd]

It amazes me how different all the amps within the Boutique Amp Distribution family are. The ToneKing layout is vastly different than the Synergy, Soldano, Friedman, Egnator, Morgan, etc. You would think they would share more in common between them, but I guess they all are keeping their original designs from the original founders.

[@diegorhoenisch62]

" . . . I guess they all are keeping their original designs from the original founders." Maybe. I have difficulty believing that Mark Bartel(Tone King's founder; now producing amps under his own name) would have made this error with the ground plane. His Tone Kings did not have a PCB at all(PCBs aren't necessarily bad, but this one seems to be sub-optimal). I'm not in the market, but I suspect that Boutique Amp Distribution is not as detail-oriented as one would hope. Cheers, Alan Tomlinson

[@dimbulb5549]

@@diegorhoenisch62 I've got similar questions about the provenance / design of this amp, compared to earlier production models. I've got a question just downthread --v

[@dazfarrell]

Dear o dear! Tone "King" by name, not by definition!

[@Idontlikethisever]

Why are you not advising with your experience and knowledge the companies how to make it better? You should’ve been hired as overseer of their design. Maybe they don’t want there Amps to last that long :)

[@SlickWilly79]

Tone King Out

[@kennethquintini658]

3000 is a lot of money 💰 for a pcb based amplifier, I'm really wary of pcbs on guitar 🎸 amps .

[@anthonypanneton923]

poor design "features" are like roaches or ants or mice - if you see one or two, you can be sure there are more you don't know about yet. I'm surprised that a $3K amp is built with a pcb. that's just sad.

[@geezberry8889]

cringeworthy but necessary repair. ouch

[@CC-fi3pp]

So overpriced

[@Walks-With-Pride]

I know now never to waste good money on a Tone King. I am not impressed at all by so-called boutique crap.

[@PsionicAudio]

Just know that this isn’t representative of the old Tone Kings made by Bartel.

[@stringlocker]

They say assembled in the USA. We know what that means.