Two EXTRA Talons!!...Which Ones Are BEST?

[@armorist6570]

Me, about to get magdumped by someone holding a 1911 loaded with Winchester Ranger T-Series: 😨 Me when i realize im wearing clothes:😮‍💨😎😏

[@ToolsandTargets]

🤣🤣🤣

[@richarddixon7276]

I still wouldn't want to get hit by any of them .

[@IAMRUSTEDROOT]

@@richarddixon7276 That would be a big old NOPE here as well.

[@wbwills2]

@@IAMRUSTEDROOT a red rider hurts like hell! And I’m pretty darn sure there’s been a few kids killed by BB guns.Saw it on TV years ago. I think. With x-rays and stuff. But big nope here too on getting shot with anything. Much less a 45 of any kind.DAMIT MAN! Anyhow, what’s up with this rusted root deal? My daughter put our cat with dots on her face and her name on here. She comments on little girl videos sometimes. Somebody apparently commented that I(she)was a creepy dude With guns watching little girl videos. She just turned 11 on 2 January. Two more years and she can have her own account. Until that point COM‘s, that to come up with a new YT name. Don’t know what it will be. Something that works for both of us. The cat is OK I guess. Doubt rusted root would work but you got me curious about picking one. Takem easy!

[@mgabriel2636]

I gave up the nudism when I saw the results.

[@LuckyDog350X]

This is exactly why I am so glad you decided to start testing with the heavy clothing, because stuff that performed well in the past in the bare gel is showing a much different picture. Thanks for everything you do I appreciate you. Have a good one brother see you on the next one.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. It definitely uncovers the ones that are made for the beach.😆

[@souljones962]

Hey Tools have you ever tried testing any of that Black Rambo ammo made by ammo inc.

[@A_Brit]

Couldn't Agree more. It made me very happy that he listens to his viewers and their requests.

[@ToolsandTargets]

@@souljones962 I haven't but I need to check that out.

[@SaltyMaverick]

This is weird though, because Lucky Gunner Labs tested them (the 6 petal version) with a clothing barrier and they performed beautifully. They had consistently ridiculous expansion (up to a whole **inch** in diameter) and good penetration (14.5" on average. They tested both standard and +P with a Kahr CW45. But oddly enough both tests came out to about 900 fps despite the different pressure levels.

[@rjw261984]

Unless you are carrying a 5" 45 with 8 talon Ranger Ts in Phoenix during the summer you might wanna switch to HSTs. 🤣 Very thorough test Tools! 🇺🇸

[@ToolsandTargets]

Amen to that!😆 Thank you sir.

[@mikefranklin1253]

Tell me a time the Ranger T .45 failed to stop a bad guy?

[@rjw261984]

@@mikefranklin1253 Why would you still want to use it when you can clearly see it does not perform as well as other rounds? You are free to use whatever you want.

[@TN45AR]

I've been shooting this exact round in my 45 acp carbine and they've become my go to for that platform. When I tested the newer premium bullets like the HST and Gold Dot, the increased velocity from the 16" barrel caused them to over expand and they only penetrated 8-10 inches. The older designs that historically struggled with expansion performed much better. Remington Golden Sabre 230s made it to 14-15 inches but had total jacket/core separation. The Ranger Ts made it to 16-17 inches with picture perfect expansion and accuracy is excellent for a pistol cartridge, shooting between 990-1000fps for the standard pressure variant and grouping around 2-3 inches at 100 yards. These results have been closely replicated in living tissue with multiple campsite raiding raccoons, armadillos, a coyote and most recently a large whitetail doe attesting to their effectiveness. The doe was shot at roughly 70 yards so impact velocity should have been around 930 fps. Bullet took out a rib on the way in, making a golf ball sized hole, shredded the top of the heart, punctured both lungs, through a rib on the way out, leaving a quarter size exit, and the bullet came to rest lodged under the skin on the far side with picture perfect expansion that could go on the cover of a Guns & Ammo magazine so I guess as long as the deer arent wearing hoodies and a Carhartt jackets, they should be 👍

[@nearrlegend6741]

I would have never guessed such a terrifying round would be defeated by some clothes lol. Great info as always, thank you sir!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Me either. Taken out by a jean jacket!😆😆😆

[@colt10mmsecurity68]

I think many law enforcement agencies abandoned the Ranger-T’s and went with HST and Critical Duty predominantly

[@ToolsandTargets]

I think so too. My local shop got a bunch of it on LEO trade.

[@jameylane1591]

The FBI only went with critical duty because it has better barrier performance. As a civilian I'll go the other way around and take better terminal performance.

[@Mbartel500]

Awesome test!! It took a while to reach a conclusion, but I agree with your assessment 100%. 1 good performing projectile out of 6 is unacceptable. Winchester needs to rethink this bullet design. When they fully open up, they are amazing, but choking on the cloth is a deal breaker. Hopefully they will make the needed changes to fully expand through cloth.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, I sure was hoping they would all look like that good one. Appreciate you again, my friend!😎👊

[@deucedeuce1572]

Yeah, damn... That expanded one was one of the most perfect 9mm rounds I've ever seen. Would love to see them tested with other materials... but usually if they get clogged with denim they'll get clogged with other clothing and dry wall (for example). If there was a simple way to modify these to make them expand like that, they'd probably be some of the best rounds on the market.

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

Winchester’s quality has been in the toilet for longer than I can remember. It’s a shame.

[@Kinetic.44]

Ranger T for summer HST for winter, always +P 230 gr.

[@thealarmclock9307]

It's like I told ya about a year ago tools, most hollowpoints work in bare gel.. but when you put a layer or two of clothing in front of it, it really separates the men from the boys... I'd like to see some testing with just maybe a t shirt , or a t shirt and a button down shirt... To simulate summer time.... I think your testing is alot more valid now that your using a clothing barrier.. it represents a worst case scenario, and if we get performance from heavy clothing, we know anything else is gonna be ok... Thanks for what you do tools.

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👊

[@ronaldbarnes8302]

6 or 8 talons didn’t matter, both failed. Very in depth test Tools, thanks for sharing!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.😎👍

[@right2bear802]

From my understanding the 8 petal is the first version of the return of T-series and 6 petal is the newer because according to Winchester testing the 6 petal performed better. I'm lucky to have a friend who works for Winchester and I gave him a call after seeing your video.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Tell him to crank up that powder dial a smidge!😜

[@jmichaelcarbonniere9549]

I do believe that is the key to the Talons... more speed! They should be able to get a 230 gr bullet up to at least 900 fps and maybe a bit more, but I suspect that is about the time all the crybabies come out of the woodwork complaining of too much recoil! It's a 45 people, it's supposed to almost break your wrist every time you pull the trigger.... well, according to the GI's that shot it in WW2! Cheers, jc

[@Rampant_Colt]

Nope, Ranger-T ammo and SXT has always been a 6-talon reverse taper hollowpoint. The 8-talon is brand new

[@Gooberslot]

@@ToolsandTargets Exactly. That was pretty disappointing velocity.

[@jardinero9112]

Great Intel brother tools. I would have never thought that the mighty Winchester ranger would have been such a dud through clothing.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. The cloth monster was too strong!

[@kodywoodward]

It's unfortunate that these are so inconsistent because I loved the Black Talons and was so stoked to findout these were the replacement so I bought a ton of em in dif calibers.

[@ToolsandTargets]

They'll still do the job but just not what I expected to get for the money for sure. I have quite a few boxes of em in different calibers too.😆

[@drivestrength5394]

Great info in the video Brian! I wonder if they make those in a 185 or 200 grain bullet - maybe the extra speed would help? Other than that, I wouldn't use those in anything other than maybe a PCC w a 10.5 barrel or longer to generate some extra speed. Maybe that would help?

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. I need to mess around with the mags for that Hi Point carbine I have and sling em outta that.

[@markwyrick2837]

The Department I worked for in the 90’s switched from Winchester to Federal hydro shocks in 97 if I’m remembering right due to Winchester inconsistencies. Duty weapons were Sig P220.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Always have liked the way Hydra Shoks perform.😎👍

[@BBEEAATTNNGGUU]

I'm always happy to see that jelly fully clothed!

[@gameragodzilla]

Interesting. I saw Lucky Gunner’s test firing these rounds out of a short barrel Kahr pistol through 4 layers of denim and clear ballistic gel, and they all expanded great. All 5 shots for both the standard and +p. It was their tests that made me use this as my carry load for my 5” 1911. I wonder if manufacturing QC went down as Winchester tried to ramp up production.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Hmmm, very possible. I've noticed a whole lot of "weak' ammo lately.😣

[@gameragodzilla]

@@ToolsandTargets Yeah. The velocities were rather low it seemed given the advertised velocity was 950 FPS. And it probably needed at least 850 to 900 FPS for consistent expansion in clothing. Wonder if that means other reputable brands like Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot suffers the same issue. Winchester Ranger T should’ve expanded the most out of those 3, but it does seem inconsistent if the bullets are loaded too low. Oh well, part of the benefit of going to a .45ACP is while 9mm may or may not expand, .45ACP will never shrink. So while massive hollow point expansion is nice, it’s still a large bore bullet out of the muzzle.

[@gameragodzilla]

Revisiting this video after some time. Turns out LuckyGunner followed the FBI protocol which wasn’t 4 layers of denim but 4 layers of different clothing material (two cotton shirts, fleece, and denim), with only one layer being denim. The 4 layers of denim was a more difficult test by another organization. That could explain the discrepancy in terms of performance. The round passes the FBI protocol but not the most difficult. Which is fine by me since I live in Texas, so heavy clothing isn’t that big a deal. And I carry a full size 1911 with a 5” barrel. So if the round passes the FBI protocol heavy clothing test, and seems to barely not pass with a 5” barrel through 4 layers of denim, then I’d say it’s a good round for my needs. The extremely good expansion this round gets when it does perform is the reason I picked it as my chosen .45ACP defensive load. EDIT: Oh, one thing I do want to mention as well. There might’ve genuinely been some questionable QC before since I had some rounds that had so little powder that it didn’t even cycle my gun. And I could noticeably feel less recoil. Those were boxes I bought during the height of the pandemic so definitely a QC issue. I recently bought 2000 rounds of Winchester Ranger T from SGAmmo, took one round from each box and loaded it into my gun and they all went off just fine. And while I had no chronograph, subjectively I felt the rounds had a bit more recoil than my normal range loads and therefore probably a higher velocity. So it seems like the QC issues are resolved now which is good. And that giant amount of ammo should be enough to last at least 10 years for me. Heh

[@thealarmclock9307]

This is another reason why I think the critical series from Hornady are some of the best all around... I just wish they would fix the bullets were the rubber tip was flush with the top of the bullet and didn't protrude past it .. this creates feeding issues in alot of guns.. Ive even had problems with them out of my Glock 17...and bro, if it'll jam a Glock 17, it's a problem... I still always carry the critical defense in my xds and the critical duty 135+p in my 17... But as soon as I buy them I take an exacto knife and cut that rubber tip flush with the top of the bullet .. never had another feeding issue once I started that. Also the extreme defenders are some excellent cboices too... Especially if you live somewhere that don't allow expanding ammo.. and they are totally barrier blind.. I tested the +p+ in 9mm through plywood, drywall, clothing, and glass. And I shit you not, every single one penetrated to 17 3/8" almost exactly..

[@deucedeuce1572]

18:10 ... Damn, the way the jacket opened up and stayed "flowered" like that is just amazing. If they could do that 100% of the time and still get good penetration they'd be one of the best rounds out there. Looks like one of the best expanded 9mm JHP's I've ever seen in my life. Usually the jacket folds back like the lead, so it doesn't add to the width/damage... but damn... that one certainly did.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah when these things do expand right, they're the most impressive HP I've seen.

[@c.m.b.4868]

A sad ending for a product I've held in such high regards for so many years. I've still got 500 rounds of the 6 petal Rangers stored in ammo cans (bought them about 7-8 years ago). May think about firing them at the range, since they're not reliable enough for self defense.

[@ToolsandTargets]

They'll still poke some holes if needed but yeah, I sure was hoping they would all look like that good one.😆

[@Kinetic.44]

Just don't use them in winter if it gets cold where you live?!

[@ikeclanton3901]

For what it’s worth a watched my buddy finish a deer off with the 8 petal Ranger T from a 3.3 inch XD-S and the recovered bullet expanded almost identically to the one you had that actually opened up except the sharp talons failed to point outward and instead stayed tucked in.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Don't let the deer know. They'll start wearing denim!😲😲😲

[@paulmennie6604]

Thanks

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. Appreciate that!😎👊

[@jackrackham7942]

Thank you. I’ve been a believer in the Black Talon, Ranger Ts, until now. I’m glad I’ve been buying HSTs lately!

[@andrewfossatti4937]

Bruh… what is this? You are so thorough I feel like you went to school to be a ballistician and then decided, “naw I’d rather make KZbin videos”. Great stuff!

[@ToolsandTargets]

😂 Thank you sir.😎👊

[@jedediahsibley3355]

I really like the 45acp for all around defense!

[@ToolsandTargets]

It punches some big holes.😎👍

[@herbertblevins7077]

Type of gel may change things too. I carried Federal HYRO SHOKS when i carried a .45 on duty.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Always have liked Hydra Shoks.

[@lucky-rowe2623]

Thanks Mike for sending the ammo.

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👍

[@steelpunisher6944]

Well… first off I have to thank you for doing these tests with the cloth because having a couple clear blocks myself I know the absolute pain in the butt it is to melt down with all those cloth fragments. But it looks like the T series is put aside for summer carry. Hopefully they’ll expand just going through a T shirt. Thanks again, awesome stuff 👍🇺🇸

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yep, people don't understand that you can't "filter" this stuff at all until they actually experience it themselves. It's a huge time sink trying to clean this cloth out.

[@DoobTube71]

what about soldering a steel ball bearing in the cavity of the hollow point to prevent cloth clogging, and hopefully encourage more consistent expansion? In WV we call this the "hillbilly hollow point"! And for the record, a .45 acp hole, expansion or not, on target, is a hell of a hole with some serious energy behind it. "Fail" is a relative term. Terminal is terminal.

[@BuniBallistics]

Nice testing! That one that did expand looked brutal! Sadly all those failures. They needed more speed for sure.

[@ToolsandTargets]

If you could get em all to perform like that one, there would be no competition for these things.😆

[@rogerray2545]

Brother you truly do above and beyond thank you for this test this time you save me some money preciate that

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👊

[@CeltKnight]

So many otherwise good .45 JHPs seem to depend on a 5" barrel for full performance. We carried the first couple versions of Federals Hydra-Shok because back in the day they had an insanely good street performance average. Sadly, however, that was from a 5" barrel. Anything shorter was rolling the dice. I had a SIG P220 in those days which has a 4.41" barrel so I was a bit concerned. However, I had to shoot a medium sized feral dog that was chasing kids and it opened up and did rather well. That was the older blunt nosed ones. I never shot anything with the newer round nosed version. Anyway, interesting and informative video as always.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.😎👍

[@jasonkeating9958]

These rounds are way to tough for the calibres, I think the 9mm loaded into a full house 357sig at 1550fps from a 5" and the 45 loaded into full house 460 Rowland at 1450fps to 1550fps should be the ticket, They need to use a thinner jacket and softer lead for 9mm especially.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, this cloth shuts em down at these speeds.

[@ram218313]

wow huge difference than bare i guess it good to do tests like these thanks for the video and info

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, they sure don't like the cloth.

[@Swampytheroot]

I bought a few cases of the 147gr T-Series Ranger 'Talons' at $25 a box of 50. Won't do crap from a G19 or G34, but it's something else from a 10" AR or 16" Ruger PCC. It may as well be heavy ball ammo under 10" barrel length in my experience. Now I know to stick to HST and Gold Dot in 45ACP. Both are absolutely stellar even through your heavy cloth test.

[@boondogger]

Good stuff buddy, I said it before I tend to stay away from Winchester ammo due to inconsistency. Point being here is why are there 6 and 8 petal rounds in the same lot # ?. Good on ya 😉

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, it's like they were just using old and new style mixed together for a period of time.

[@paulscountry456]

I bought some RA40 B surplus stuff and those are great, agency's were going to 180 grain right around the time 40 was phasing out, 180 was working the best.

[@ToolsandTargets]

💥😎👊💥

[@TheCrewChief374]

Tools you know by now I enjoy seeing you sending more rounds down range even at the Gel-lo😁

[@ToolsandTargets]

Took me forever to clean all the cloth out of this stuff.😑

[@TheCrewChief374]

@@ToolsandTargets 😁

[@cdesalme]

The other problem with all of these different hollow points is that the manufacturers are designing them to be fired out of a full size weapon. Why not design a round that will perform well out of a 3 inch barrel. Great test. Thanks for all the work.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, easier and cheaper to make a round perform well form full size so they just do the bare minimum.😣 Thank you sir!

[@daveezrin1896]

Brian's favorite company sig Sauer has a round specifically for the 365. Which he tested in bare gel and even though the velocity was lower than sig v crown it performed very well. Curious to see how it does with the heavy cloth.

[@cdesalme]

@@daveezrin1896 That would be a must see. 👍 I have a variety of hollow points but in the end my EDC is always loaded with gold dots.

[@jeffroberts760]

I’m pretty sure Critical Defense is for short barrel compacts👍🏻 I can’t remember where I heard that

[@camojoe83]

Service rounds are designed for service pistols. Not a shocker, really. You want defensive rounds for a concealed size gun? There's tons of em These Talons did fail miserably from a service pistol, however.... Sooo. Rock those HSTs and Gold Dots and unbonder Golden Sabers in your 45 or just fill jt (and your foes) with hardball like the founding fathers intended

[@sgharpsr]

As a rule, I always ask attackers to undress prior to attacking me. These rounds should work fine for me.

[@texasbeast239]

"It's gettin' hot in heah So take off all yo clothes I'm about to shoot yo @$$ But first please strike a po-o-o-ose" 🎶

[@ToolsandTargets]

I thought I was the only one who did that!😲

[@ToolsandTargets]

😂

[@derrickchappell1039]

For the people in warm climates. This round could be a winner for sure.

[@kevinmarrett9532]

That projectile is so nice (when it works) that I’d be tempted to buy some and then re-load them myself with Accurate #7, Alliant Power Pistol, or Ramshot Silhouette powder. The max loads on those would have your bullet traveling at around 950 FPS out of a 5 inch barrel and I think that would be enough to get consistent performance every time

[@truthhurts7836]

Very informative. I appreciate all your videos. Keep them coming 👍.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.😎👊

[@miker9043]

Thanks Tools for another great test ! definitely confirms there's way better options on the ammo shelf for the money !!!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Appreciate ya, brother!

[@allenbolen9705]

Great test! The heavy clothing test are great! Thanks for letting us see the pretenders!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.😎👊

[@Kinetic.44]

+P really makes a difference with these, as per your other test. Ranger T for T shirt weather HST for jacket weather. Some old timers would switch between 9mm and .45 with the seasons before more reliable JHP like GDHP and HST, because if your bullet didnt expand at least you were still hitting them with a bigger bullet.

[@billdubois56]

Another great jelly test Brotha and thank you for doing this test right in the nick of time , I am going to the flea market in the morning and I was about to pay 70 bucks for a box of that in 9mm .. thank you thank you .. I'll just buy the 2 mags he has for my G2C for 20 bucks instead ..

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. Think I'd pass too.😎👍

[@maxmccain8950]

I agree with you about the cloth shutting down the T series. I’ve seen other tests where they did the exact same thing. Another great video sir. Through your testing it has helped me decide on my defensive ammo. 👍🏻

[@ToolsandTargets]

Surprised at how many people still wanna argue that these things are great through cloth. Blaming it on everything from gel to weather.😂 I have a bunch of these in a few different calibers so lord knows I wanted them to pass, but they just don't.🤷‍♂️

[@maxmccain8950]

@@ToolsandTargets Ive seen all your tests so I know what your saying is true. The 45 ACP made its bones on hardball though. It’s still killed a lot of people with plain old hardball. That would probably work better than T-series. 😂 have a super day my friend.

[@maxmccain8950]

@@ToolsandTargetsAlso, a large percentage of law enforcement in the nation use these exact same rounds (9,40,45). My son in law is a cop and that’s what they carry. I showed him the 9mm one you did. He forwarded it to several department heads. Keep up the good work sir.

[@grandpabob3286]

Great test and should be saving guys from buying crappy ammo, Keep doing a great job, thank you

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.😎👍

[@Rampant_Colt]

This is the first ballistic test of the 8-talon Winchester .45 T-Series I've seen. I keep them loaded in my 4.6" M&P and have confidence in them

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👊

[@murphymmc]

Another great test that gives us answers, thanks.

[@ToolsandTargets]

I didn't know if I was ever gonna get done with this one.😆 Thank you sir.

[@hoffpbass]

Just watched this again. Appears those +P rounds you tested more recently have 100 ft/sec more velocity and do the job well even from the Commander.

[@wbwills2]

I like some of these ballistic jell videos. Sometimes. Sometimes I’d rather watch paint dry. One things for sure. Regular people with a few guns don’t do jelly tests or chronographs. Most people, not all. It’s cool to see. Especially when you do something like your little Taurus 327. That caliber with all its options and that particular gun being a good value gun(Taurus sure has been doing a real good job lately) is a caliber I don’t have. I do have old top brakes and some other 32s. Love Beretta 81. Might have to splurge on that new release bronze one they’ve got out. Pretty sweet. You’re just having fun and making content with those talons for the most part .?. I think.?. People that do not make KZbin videos regularly don’t realize how hard it could be to try and come up with something new. All the time. Comes natural to some people. You got the “IT” Factor. I hate those dummies at KZbin are taking the money out of it after all you guys have worked so hard. Another thing they are doing. They being KZbin. I try my best to keep my girl that’s 11 years old away from shorts. All the studies, real deal studies done for a long time now. Scientific proof of problems with short attention span and Other Bad things for children’s brains. They’ve added more shorts! Used to be able to scroll down past that one row of shorts and that was about it. They are all over the place now on here. I might have to delete KZbin. I find myself watching the damn shorts some of the times.not too cool of YTube in my book. A class action lawsuit about those shorts would be in order. I think I’d jump on that bandwagon if somebody get one started. Be a pain in the rear, and one thing about going to a courthouse, don’t! Unless absolutely necessary. I need to get up there and get some documents & don’t even want to go . The alcohol and tobacco guys are ruining lives. Good peoples lives. People that have done nothing but good their whole lives. Doing 50 years on some trumped up crap. Look into it if you haven’t heard anything about it. It’s a sad shame. I’m agitated about YTube at this point. Over and out.

[@ToolsandTargets]

I know what you mean about the shorts. I absolutely hate them but YT is definitely pushing them hard, so I make one here and there. They are actually being monetized similar to full length videos starting in February, so it's gonna get even worse.😣

[@rsbreeze]

Gold Dot is my standard!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Really hate that Underwood doesn't load them anymore.

[@rsbreeze]

@@ToolsandTargets Yeah. I've got plenty of them on hand, but I do like to keep fresh ammo in my carry guns. So I rotate it out.

[@kathygates8845]

GREAT VIDEO TOOL .... !!!!! THAT CLOTH TELLS THE STORY ....!!!!!!! NOW 230 GR. IS OK...!!!!! BUT I SHOOT 185 GR. ....!!!!!!!! DOUBLE G. HERE ...!!!!!!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. It definitely pulls back the curtain on a lot of rounds.

[@l.a.3887]

Rounds Not reliable another good test thanks for the video and information 👍

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👊

[@josephpacchetti5997]

The proof is in gel, I'm going to stick with HSTs, Thank you Sir. 👊🇺🇲

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yep. they just can't handle this cloth.🤷‍♂️

[@josephpacchetti5997]

@@ToolsandTargets Offhand, when you tested the 9x19 127gr +P+ was it with the heavy clothing?

[@ToolsandTargets]

@@josephpacchetti5997 The most recent one was. I did them originally in bare gel.😎👍

[@BulletsB4Guns_2A]

Thanks for the review Tools. I wouldn't use that ammo for EDC or HD... Thanks for sharing it with us....

[@ToolsandTargets]

Appreciate you brother. Have a good Sunday!

[@michaelsherfield3749]

They performed well in the black talons 2.0 video

[@docholliday1588]

I have some of this ammo in 40sw ,I was wondering how well they would work. Maybe, hopefully they will do better in 40sw with the extra velocity. Thanks for the info. Like always great video.

[@ToolsandTargets]

I have them in .40S&W also. They did great in bare gel, but I haven't tested them in cloth yet. Thank you sir.😎👍

[@RealtyPro7]

Good test. I know some people still complain that cloth test is too difficult for most JHP to pass. But I say keep it up because personally I’m only interested in the one round that can reliably pass the hardest tests. And it is good to know the second and maybe third place ammo in case that’s all you can get. It’s all expensive, so why not reward the company that makes the product that is reliable and performs as promised in the worst scenarios. Because HST is a JHP that keeps outperforming the others, use it. For possibly even superior results in certain cases, Underwood XD and XP consistently does what they claim in a monolithic fluted design. I do believe there is even a time and place for things like that crazy Liberty ammo. It definitely is explosive quickly and limits penetration which may be desired on occasion. Clothing doesn’t seem to stop it in tests I’ve seen and a tiny bit does reach about 12”. It’s not one I’d normally need or use, but I’ll keep a few boxes around. So far my go to remains HST and Underwood Xtreme Defender and Penetrator. Also obviously hard cast for certain needs. And just from habit I do still tend to have Underwood 200grain XTP in 10mm. I have every 10mm brand including HST and the XD and XP, just not loaded up in the main mag as edc for now. I do have XD and XP in the back up mags just because, why not…lol.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. I'm gonna keep the heavy clothing because I agree that it probably is more than most people would encounter, but it shows you the best of the best in the worst case scenario. I do have something in mind to demo the difference in lighter stuff. 😎👍

[@RealtyPro7]

@@ToolsandTargets I’d like to see that with the Liberty ammo. It’s definitely interesting stuff and serves a certain purpose. It’s funny because there’s a guy on Reddit that pushes that ammo so hard he must be the designer or own stock! He posts non stop that it is the Only and Best carry ammo on earth and if you dare disagree, the names range from boomer to worse lol. I personally like to have a few other options for different needs, but it’s not a bad idea to have a few boxes of it laying around in the pile too. Definitely looks cool in jelly when it explodes 💥

[@ToolsandTargets]

@@RealtyPro7 😂😂 Yeah, I have tested it in bare gel in .45acp and 10mm. The speeds are pretty crazy.

[@RealtyPro7]

@@ToolsandTargets You know another thing about the clothing is that while some say it’s too much, think about what people wear. Even in the summer there are people with more than one shirt or a thick hoodie etc. I can say I’ve not yet shot a “bare” naked person lol in any season. And when it’s cooler the layers can get serious. Leather jackets, Carhartt, hunting coats. And I believe more than one person has mentioned that some people now have a massive extra layer of fat! And a few have much more muscle. It’s always nice to ignore all the bone that might get in the way or deflect most ammo. I get the idea that many people change ammo or guns per the season, not that it helps when many times it warm in the day and cold at night. IRL it’s most likely to have to shoot a person wearing clothing and also hyped up on adrenaline and/or drugs. I say a good wound channel from a projectile that ignores windshields, clothing and bone to penetrate reliably to the upper end of that 12-18” level (or a little more) is the king in all seasons, day or night. But that’s just me. It’s still good we all have many choices to suit each person’s needs!

[@380master9]

No sir, the name of the meter 147 grain opened up beautifully through the cloth just like the HST did it was the same test comparison

[@jmichaelcarbonniere9549]

Another great, and informative, test, Brian! But I have to say, how disappointing!! I was looking at these as an alternative to the Speer bullets (which cannot be found!) and fortunately, no one had any in stock. I guess I am going to have to rely on my reloads since everyone seems to be out of everything these days. Oh well, my reloads are more reliable than the factory stuff anyway! Cheers, jc

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. I sure was hoping for better.🤷‍♂️

[@1erinjames]

Hmm that's a bit disappointing. Great shooting as always!! Really good to know. Thank ya much Tools!!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you ma'am!😎👍

[@milehighgimpster]

Great information. I'm not a .45 acp shooter but this testing helps. Thanks for the video

[@ToolsandTargets]

Appreciate that!😎👍

[@armorist6570]

We need to get you in a video with Paul Harrel! Easily the most informative ballistic testers on the internet!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Meat and Jelly!😆😆😆

[@toddmcwhite8909]

Great Job Tools! Once again you have confirmed that Winchester is not really a contender in the Personal Defense Ammo category!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.

[@gort4016]

This was a very interesting evaluation. Being that I live up north - I can see that my few boxes of these Ranger .45's are better suited to expensive paper punching.

[@ToolsandTargets]

I sure was hoping for better from these.😆

[@rileymoon6720]

Maybe the newer ranger line improved the consistency. Looks like they have a polymer tip like critical duty. Forget what they're called though.. ranger one maybe?

[@ToolsandTargets]

Looks like just LEO packaging for their USA Ready stuff with the red cross insert.

[@joeyphillips1181]

The 40 S&W talons are the only ones I really trust after watching this lol they usually work from all the tests I've seen..

[@ToolsandTargets]

I still have to test those with the cloth. They did amazing in bare gel.

[@TheRios7018]

Awesome review bud! I won’t carry them unless that’s all I have! 👊🏼🤠💯

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir.😎👊

[@Dwayne7834]

Thanks for the gel test. Something is definitely wrong with the round. Either the lead isn’t soft enough or something.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, sure would be nice if they all looked like the one good one.

[@Nutty.357]

Summer carry round maybe! The 8 petal did acceptable in the 5" but not the expansion like in bare gel. They are making these with the ballistic insert now, same as the usa ready defense but blue tip, hmmmm! I can see why they did away with the 6 lol! have a good one! 💥💥

[@ToolsandTargets]

Sure was hoping to see better from these.🤷‍♂️

[@Nutty.357]

Me too! They don't like cloth for sure!

[@jaredgreen5840]

Totally agree Mr TNT, I guess unless you're expecting a naked tweeker I'm sticking with my HST. Lol 🤗

[@ToolsandTargets]

😆😆😆

[@LKaramazov]

I’m thinking these days that with 45 you’re better off with ball. Balls expensive enough as it is!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Aint that the truth.

[@nikos6220]

Man, did I enjoy this episode. “Tools and the mystery of the Ranger T half-twins” 😁 But what is happening over at Winchester? Obviously they knew they had an issue, otherwise they wouldn’t have coughed up the money for a redesign. But then also failing with the re-design?!?!

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yeah, sure wasn't what I was hoping to see.😆

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

I want to say the problem in a large part can be blamed on Winchester’s “reverse taper” jacket that’s thicker up front than in the rear. It makes it harder for the expansion to start. What they could do is go traditional design where the jacket is thicker in the rear and they could possibly cut a cannelure into the bullet to help prevent jacket separation rather than rely on the “reverse taper” to do it as they are now.

[@nikos6220]

@@rifleshooterchannel208 Interesting. Why do you think they went with that? We’re they chasing performance through metal and glass for the LE market? The Hornady FTX falls in that category- giving up expansion for barrier penetration capabilities

[@rifleshooterchannel208]

@@nikos6220 Sorry, I should’ve clarified. The Reverse Taper Jacket was a feature since the original Black Talons came out and from what I understand they just tweaked the design of the hollow cavity and maybe the lead alloy but all generations/iterations keep the Reverse Taper Jacket. I’m not entirely which came out first but I know their big completion during the early ‘90s was the Remington Golden Saber and, while a great performer, it very frequently had jacket separation and I think Winchester used the “thicker up front” jacket in their Black Talons to counter the issue Remington was having. But the issue with those early rounds wasn’t even one of barriers, they were shedding the jackets in bare gel with regularity.

[@codynipper2460]

Hate to see this man. The talons had me excited . Might need to relegate them to range ammo in my 40. Good info Tools

[@ToolsandTargets]

I haven't tested the .40's through cloth yet. I gotta do that. They're my last hope!😆

[@MrJdog1987]

Very interesting sad to see the ranger 6talon ammo do bad but it’s good to know .I think this is still what my local sheriffs office is using but in 9mm .I would love to talk to the Winchester ammo engineers and learn some of there techniques,knowledge and just history of there defense ammo .I think Winchester has some of the richest defense ammunition history out there

[@ToolsandTargets]

It does make you wonder what kind of testing they do.

[@chrislang5659]

It's amazing how a little cloth can have such a big effect!

[@ToolsandTargets]

It really is. This stuff just shuts em down.

[@jeffthurmond7537]

Try some Berry hybrid hollow point. Have had good results in my testing with 124 gr. In 9mm

[@ToolsandTargets]

Underwood is using them in some of their loads now.

[@jeffthurmond7537]

@@ToolsandTargets I did not know that. I load my own and use a lot of them because price, availability., and they preform well for me. I really enjoy your content. Like the honest reviews. Best wishes.

[@ToolsandTargets]

@@jeffthurmond7537 Thank you sir. appreciate that!😎👊

[@marcrhodes3382]

They need high velocity to work properly. They're perfect for 357, 44mag. The cone is just too small to start catching friction. Needs to be a much wider nose like the gold dot and the tac xp..

[@sssss8700]

Lucky gunners test of the Winchester T series used 2 layers of cotton, one of fleece, and one of denim and they managed to get consistent expansion to 1” and 14.5” of penetration out of a 3.6” gun from 5 shots total. I’m not doubting the results that either of you got, I’m just curious as to what differences in procedure could’ve caused such a significant difference. Lucky gunner used Clear Ballistics gel, you’re using the same correct? Unfortunately I’m not sure if LG was using 6 or 8 talon stuff.

[@sssss8700]

Update: they used 6 petal ammunition

[@ToolsandTargets]

Couldn't tell you. The biggest thing I have learned about these T Series once you add cloth, is they become extremely inconsistent as far as expansion.

[@noneyabiz8225]

Just more proof that external hollow points, like the Underwood defender, is the consistent way to go for EDC

[@ToolsandTargets]

The eyes don't lie.

[@bob3036us1958]

Love all the tests you do. Please tell me what you would use in the GX4. I have seen some of the tests with it but would like your opinion. Thanks 🙏.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir. 124 HST or Gold Dot.😎👍

[@michaelsherfield3749]

Wow! This is (was now) my 45 carry ammo. I guess ill load up the golden sabers. Ive always thought these were good. I know they are good out of a 40 cal I could have swore I seen a video of yours showing good performance.

[@mexofarva748]

So what about light clothing. Will it perform differently? Heavy clothing is worst case scenario/winter time setting.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Possible. I have something in mind.😎👍

[@joeshearer1247]

I would like to see the PMC 9mm JHP thru the cloth too if you felt like revisiting the budget hollow point ammo

[@ToolsandTargets]

Definitely have a plan to do that.😎👍

[@joeshearer1247]

@@ToolsandTargets awesome for some reason my Gen 4 G19s really like pmc ammo runs the best

[@tahertz8544]

They work great in DUTY SIZE guns, but not the 230gr. 45 but most calibers. 9-10mm /40 fabulous performance in Duty size. Defenders also.

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👊

[@tahertz8544]

@@ToolsandTargets seems most reliable, rounds have 5 and 6 pedals these days , win. USA ready maybe the only 8 I can think of.

[@Cr0wmagnum]

A 9mm might or migh not expand but a .45 will never get smaller. The best .45 round I have found is the Eldrado Starfire from P.M.C

[@ToolsandTargets]

💥😎👊💥

[@theotherguy3083]

Thanks!!!

[@anthonyb2334]

Amazing what cloth will do to these rounds. Always GREAT information. Thank you as always.

[@ToolsandTargets]

It really does shut em down.😆

[@Dennisthemenace40]

It looks like they would favor a little more speed. So, I vote for having them loaded up in 45 Super to a little over 1,000 FPS. That I would like to see!!

[@frank6029]

Very disappointing especially for a 45acp and they are not cheap Thanks Tools Stay Safe and God Bless 🙏🙏

[@ToolsandTargets]

That's a fact.

[@charlesbaylis8650]

I like the tank commander size 1911 that's what they call the 4.25 inch barrel

[@ToolsandTargets]

😎👊

[@64samsky]

I'll stick with the HST or the Gold Dot.

[@ToolsandTargets]

Yep

[@johntaylor8582]

You got a idea on how to do a skull bone barrier? If you insist on center mass shots, sternum barrier. Put a Carhartt jacket in front.

[@ToolsandTargets]

💥💀💥

[@hoffpbass]

Welcome to "Tools for Science and Philosophy" channel. This was an epic 45 ACP test 👍 One result leads to questions that must be tested which leads to more questions and more testing all in effort to find more Truth 🕵 Thanks Tools. And thanks Mike for noticing the difference and providing testing supplies 🍻

[@ToolsandTargets]

Thank you sir! I was starting to think I was gonna have to bring out some backup jelly!😆😆😆

[@joebrown9415]

I'd like to see the Winchester defender series hex vent 9mm 124grain +p tested I bought a couple boxes of it and interested to see how it would perform

[@ToolsandTargets]

Tested em a while back in bare gel. Haven't tried em in cloth yet.😎👍 kzbin.info/www/bejne/rF6nYZuVbtSBe6M

[@joebrown9415]

Awesome going to check it out it would be cool to see them with the cloth too

[@joebrown9415]

Thanks Brian love your videos that defender was impressive think it would be a cool comparison with the cloth 👍

[@ejsocci2630]

Thanks for the way you did this video brother.

[@charlesleggett2546]

I wonder how these rounds would perform with a rubber insert like the Critical Duty. Might help with the denim and open up correctly.

[@mikewallace8087]

Tools, do think HP's are going to be superseded by the Underwood XP 4 flute bullets?

[@ToolsandTargets]

Those things sure are impressive when it comes to being cloth barrier blind.