FBI: the 9mm is as good as a .45?

The FBI switched from a .40 S&W sidearm to one chambered for the 9mm. They claim modern 9mm bullet technology makes it as "good as a .45." I call BS on that.

[@timb8970]

I’m still a little shocked how the .40 went from loved to hated so quickly.

[@nataliedeyton6829]

I agree … .40 is a great round and hits hard .. look at ballistics of 9mm to 40 it’s not close

[@MrRourk]

9mm has made big improvements but not that big. .40's biggest fail now is does not work in compacts so well. .45acp can manage in a compact okay. The market these days is all about compact CC Guns.

[@mybuickskill6979]

Yup, I agree. But I'm sort of okay with it. Plenty of ammo for me in the drought times 🤷🏼‍♂️😂😂

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

Because it’s a compromise cartridge. Go 10mm or 9mm. .40 just sucks.

[@MrRourk]

@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 uh almost all 10mm ammo sold is just 40s&w with extra brass. The same performance

[@j-dub8399]

I love the .45 acp. It’s probably my favorite pistol cartridge. You always hear “the 9mm has experienced so much advancements over the last few decades and is better than .45 acp now.” They forget that the .45 acp has undergone the same advancements.

[@tomserbaducci8559]

Maybe…..maybe the “new tech” 9mm ammo (if it performs perfectly can be “just as good” as fmj.45 But the .45 is a big ol bullet to begin with, if you’re HP doesn’t perform perfectly….you’re still punching a bigger hole. 9mm has capacity….that’s about it in my eyes

[@smithn.wesson495]

These people know the 45 has all the same advancements and benefits the 9mm has......the people who think the 9mm is greater than God never admit that fact because then they would have to eat shit and admit to being wrong.

[@finalcountdown7658]

40s&w expanders to be the same diameter or larger than most commercial 45acp ammo, AND 40s&w can be had in a smaller more concealable package without giving up a bunch of capacity like you would lose with 46acp.

[@thatsmytwocents4372]

45 is my favorite caliber and I love 1911 style pistols, but I’m sorry, the 45 tech has not kept up with the 9. It just hasn’t. There isn’t any brand of 45 out there that matches up, at least that I have found. Been shooting over 50 years.

[@finalcountdown7658]

@@thatsmytwocents4372 what "tech?" They both can use the same brass, bullet, power, etc. The only difference would be the amount of power, and the overall size of the JHP bullet. You're just regurgitating talking points with using any critical thinking.

[@heathmarcum5390]

The meteor that killed the dinosaurs., was shot by a 1911

[@cgatito3528]

The Big Bang that created the universe. Yep, fired by a 1911.

[@r.baldwin880]

I shot a VC five times with a Browning HiPower in Vietnam in ‘69. The fifth round entered just under his chin and exited out the crown of his head. The first four never fazed him and he still managed a five inch scrape just below the flowing ribs on my left chest. Two months later, I shot another VC a couple inches below the solar plexus. It folded him and and he went down. That was with one round from a M1911 (.45 ACP). 9mm and .45 ACP ammo were both military hardball.

[@backwoodscharlie8483]

I've heard many vietnam vets say the same thing. The 45 acp is a man stopper.

[@orion1two]

Shot placement was what took him out not caliber. Based on info provided in your own account

[@mmabagain]

Nope. Read the account more closely. You must have a 9mm.

[@Ninja9981000]

​@@mmabagain There are so many factors that come in to play. There is a pretty small chance that the round that is carrying about the same energy as the 9mm and is only slightly bigger in the grand scheme of things was the determining factor. And before you ask, yes, I have a 9mm as well as a 40 and 45.

[@Jenkmode89]

I call bs on this. All standard gi’s in Vietnam were givin a 1911. Only sog used the hi power so unless you were sog you had just a 1911

[@JohnDoe-ud2cc]

My dad was an Oakland cop from 71-07 and has shot 5 people in his career. The first 20 years he carried a model 66 combat magnum with 158grs. The rest of his career he bounced back and forth between a 1911, 5906, and then the 226. All 5 of his personal shoots were 357 and all of them were one shot stops. On the flip side he has been on seen of dozens of other officer involved shootings and hundreds of gang shootings. He will contest that sometimes it will take a dozen rounds into someone before they go down. His partners got into a shoot that the suspect took 2 12ga 00 blasts at 5 yard and 6 357’s before dropping. If someone is determined enough they can still have a minute of fight in them even after taking a hit to the heart. We have all hunted and shot deer with a full power rifle and watched the deer run a block before going down. Then during processing you see that you took out both lungs and the heart with a 30-06 and that thing still ran for 30 sec. Now imagine a severely weaker round with 10x less power.

[@Wastelandman7000]

Nothing works all of the time save decapitation. With a sword. I think carry choice is about leveraging your odds. .357 is a good choice. So is a .45acp. Because if the average lone cop or civilian is going to need dozens of bullets to stop one perp, then no hand gun will be worth spit because none of them have enough rounds to get the job done.. Unless you cap them. And any of the discussed guns will do that, though I'd say the .45 and the 10mm have the edge. Everyone is so obsessed with center mass they forget other targets will work. A round to the head will end a human and even better a round through the hip will stop them dead in their tracks. Because its really hard to walk with no hip. Aim for where the front pocket is on jeans. Massive shock and blood loss. Not to mention cracking their face on the ground breaks their concentration. And if they are still a problem, they're at least a stationary problem.

[@denisdegamon8224]

I agree with 95 % of your comment, but in that shoot you posted that shotgun must have had bean bag rounds. At 5 yards a 12 gauge will shoot the wad clean through the target much less than 9 33 caliber pellets. We are talking about a fist size chunk being taken out. To quote Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch " pistols put hole in people, rifle put holes through people and shotguns with the right load and distance take large chunks iut and throw them on the ground" He is an ex Vietnam combat Marine, ex police officer retired and owner operator and head instructor of Thunder Ranch. A very experienced, straight shooter and national treasure.

[@factsnotfeelingssendit5961]

​@@Wastelandman7000your post made me smile. Don't forget the pelvis. That makes a nice cement faceplant too

[@Wastelandman7000]

@@factsnotfeelingssendit5961 Yep, all sorts of important tubes and meat down there. And even better from the defender's POV the bad man is now only in a position to bite your ankles off! (Monty Python joke just came out LOL)

[@factsnotfeelingssendit5961]

@@Wastelandman7000 call it a draw lol that was funny shit. Nice chatting and stay safe fellow progun Americans

[@68orangecrate26]

Dad and I conducted an amateur ballistics test on the .357, 9MM, and .45ACP rounds for a high school project of mine in the 1980’s. Can you imagine that today??!😆 Great presentation…

[@haroldkrivell2524]

DUDE! POST THE RESULTS! I'd love to hear!

[@BaetaJose]

Great job! Your father must be a great person!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@68orangecrate26]

@@BaetaJose He’s, since, past away. But, yes… great Dad!

[@BaetaJose]

@@68orangecrate26 God Bless him and you!!! 🙏🙏🙏

[@68orangecrate26]

@@BaetaJose Likewise, brother😎✝️

[@Bladerunner4924764]

I always remember captain Ramius in Search for Red October telling Ryan "Be careful, there are things in here that don't react well to bullets". Well, neither does the body. Whether it's a 9mm, .45cal, a 10mm or any other caliber, the body is not designed to function properly once a foreign object enters its realm. It tends to disrupt the flow of things. In my opinion, as long as you practice with whatever caliber suits you, you can inflict debilitating harm to anyone that attacks you.

[@darbyheavey406]

The SAS used the 9 mm for decades…It’s cheapest round on the market. Quantity has a quality all is own- Joe Stalin.

[@glack5558]

@@darbyheavey406Ergo the Rusky reference to their troops and their best military strategy….’throw meat at them until they run out of ammo’…..😖

[@jasonbrody8724]

Wow really?!? Getting shot is bad for someones health? Thank you for sharing that wisdom with everyone

[@sethmullins8346]

@@jasonbrody8724despite your sarcasm, a lot of people seem to not know this. I see it a whole bunch when people talk down pocket calibers like .380. Seem to misunderstand that getting shot sucks in any caliber.

[@andyr.1364]

Exactly!!

[@carpetcop6173]

I carried issued P220 .45’s for the majority of my LE career, and they served me very well. The last issued load we used in those pistols before my agency switched to 9mm Glock’s was the RA45T Winchester Ranger T Series 230 Grain JHP. It performed exceptionally well in the handful of shootings that we used it in. Yes, capacity was low at 8+1 rounds, but it proved time and again to be adequate. None of our shootings ever required more than those 9 rounds, and all of the bad guys involved were neutralized. Today, being retired, I have followed the trends toward the 9mm for my daily carry based primarily on magazine capacity and ammunition costs. I hold no illusions about the 9mm being the ballistic equal of the .45 ACP. It isn’t. It has come a long way from what it was in terms of performance years ago, but the .45 is still the better hammer when comparing modern premium bullets to modern premium bullets. I worked enough shootings as an investigator to know that both cartridges are very effective. I just believe that the .45 has advantages that make it the better choice under certain circumstances. As such, while I do carry a 9mm pistol most of the time, it is a P220 .45 loaded with RA45T that sits on my night stand. From room distance, I just have more confidence in that gun/ammo combination to end a confrontation faster than any other handgun option. YMMV.

[@brandonchandler9032]

10mm is coming back and has some better gun options as well compared to what was available years ago. Ammunition is improving as well.

[@user-os6dx1cz6s]

The 10 mm is still as lame as it used to be and don't tell me that the ammunition is getting better it's barely better than 40 caliber I don't know what you're talking about man and I'm up to date on my firearms so I know what I'm talking about

[@brandonchandler9032]

​@user-os6dx1cz6s You sound so insulted. Use what you like. I stay up to date on my stuff as well. It's not hard to see that 10mm ballistics are beating the 45acp. 45acp is a good round and so is 9mm but the 10mm has more punch to it. Can you get better with reloads? Yes you probably can if you are into reloading. Yes round selection makes a difference as well. I have 45acp and 10mm handguns and the 10mm has more velocity and energy. Opinions are like ass holes everyone's got one. I personally think 10mm is awesome and will continue to shoot and like it regardless of what you or anyone else says. You told me don't tell or basically undermine you about 10mm. Well guess what I am it's a better overall round for terminal ballistics. I could care less about a 40 S&W it's a necked down 10mm basically. Have a great day and shoot what you like and can afford.

[@amazingamerican3958]

@@user-os6dx1cz6s Bro, I was researching bear defense recently and found that the minimum recommended caliber is .357 magnum. Most people in Alaska carry a .44 magnum to be a little safer but have recently started packing a 10mm because of the extra ammo. 9mm, .357 sig, .40, .45 are not recommended for bear defense.

[@apersonontheinternet8006]

@@user-os6dx1cz6s You're up to date on ARFCOM Fudd lore, that is about it.

[@StopStealingMyThoughts9220]

It's better than both when it comes to terminal ballistics but recoils much more than both 45acp and 9mm

[@JamesWilliams-sk3qj]

357 SIG is one of the best cartridges ever made for semi-auto pistols. I don't really understand why it's not anymore popular than it is. Maybe it'll get it's due some day soon! 45 ACP is definitely a tried and true warhorse and hard-hitter! 9mm also has stood the test on battlefields also!

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Bottleneck handgun cartridges have never gained a large following, even though a couple were stellar performers. I have a .38 Super slide/barrel for my Colt Light Weight Commander and will be covering it and hot handloads in a future video. It can give near .357 Magnum-level performance, but so can your .357 Sig.

[@anton1949]

Heavy recoil.

[@Nobody-xh5qe]

It didn't get popular because 40 came out at the same time and that's what took off to 357 sig went to the wayside.

[@grigorirasputin5020]

@@Nobody-xh5qe Actually, the .357 Sig came about some years after the .40 S&W. It was made by necking the .40 case down to 9mm.

[@robertfrapples2472]

Have you shot the new Sig Stovepipe chambered in .357 mag? Lol!

[@bobsmoot2392]

"The 9mm is much smaller". Its also much faster, lighter, less recoil, faster back on target, and has twice the rds in each magazine.

[@10-4CodyWade]

The 45 is a lower pressure cartridge so it has very similar energy numbers to the 9mm. Most handgun rounds today have around 35k psi chamber pressure (including 9mm, 40 S&W, 44 mag) but the 45 is only around 21k psi. Just like the 380 ACP and 38 Special, the 45 ACP is a neutered cartridge with fairly low chamber pressure. Like you said, magazine capacity is where the 9mm really beats the 45.

[@videogazer801]

The 9mm is a subpar caliber, makes a smaller hole in the intended target and doesn’t have the same stopping power. That’s the problem with 9mm, and I don’t recommend it at all.

[@Sobek501]

​@@videogazer801🤣 your comment is subpar.

[@10-4CodyWade]

@@videogazer801 What do you recommend?

[@videogazer801]

@@10-4CodyWade 45 acp

[@Ammo08]

One of the best discussions on this subject I've ever heard. Excellent work.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thank you.

[@R9000S]

@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jbyup. Subbed

[@tonybowman1322]

I had this exact conversation with my department when we switched from 45acp to 9mm. They were saying bullet technology. I said bullet technology is across the board, the 9mm wasn’t the only cartridge that benefited from the binding technology. Thanks for the video.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Great minds think alike.

[@texas-raider]

@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb I argued the same thing with my agency when they decided to switch from the 125 gr Gold Dot .357 Sig to the 135 gr 9mm Hornady Critical Duty. Since the switch, our Highway Patrol has seen multiple cases of that 9mm failing to put folks down, one even went through a windshield, hit the perp in the head, bounced off and landed on the center console....he had a headache, but not much else. I argued that the same technology that 'improved' the 9mm exists across the board. How it can it be logically argued that a 950-1000 fps round with a tiny hollowpoint mouth is superior to a 125 gr .357 Sig (essentially another 9mm) running 1400 fps with a massive hollowpoint? It is frankly irrational. I suspect that FBI 'approved' 9mm is really designed to make it easier to shoot, therefore easier for smaller officers to qualify with. Building rounds tailored to a set of preconceived notions or protocols, then saying all other rounds don't matter anymore, is more of a political decision, it's not based on reality.

[@bhager1945]

I learned about the 45 in the 1960s from my father who was a world class shooter on Air Force international shooting team.. I never forgot those lessons. Though I have some of the modern pistols, my 1911 45 still has it place on my person and on the night stand.

[@jacobkean03]

The 45 definitely has its place for home defense because of the lack of penetration compared to the 9mm. 9mm is much more likely to go through the person and walks if you were to miss. I carry a 9mm for personal defense when I leave the house but I keep a 45 beside the bed for home defense.

[@deathlarsen7502]

lol ooook Chair Force

[@paddypibblet846]

​@@jacobkean03Didn't the guy in the video just state that 45acp penetrates more through vehicles and dry wall?

[@jacobkean03]

@@paddypibblet846 I hope not because that’s ballistically not true. The 45 has too much mass and not enough ass behind it to be a penetrator.

[@paddypibblet846]

@@jacobkean03 What kinda weirdo comments without even having watched the video?

[@frankbrowning328]

I agree and I also sometimes carry a 9mm. However, another point on recoil is that the best performing 9mm loads are for the most part +P loadings and a hot +P 124gr or 147gr 9mm has nearly the same recoil as most any 40 self defense load when fired in the same size/weight gun

[@user-os6dx1cz6s]

In order for the 9mm to be able to even compete you have to use plus p or + 3 +if the 45 uses plus p it's over for the 9mm I don't care what you say and don't even get me started on the 45 super or the 450 SMC or the 460 rowland we don't even want to go there

[@frankbrowning328]

@@user-os6dx1cz6s True. A lot of people think the sun rises and sets on the 9mm and IMO it is a great cartridge BUT there's more power available shen needed in many other calibers such as 40, 357 Sig, 45, etc

[@youlookprettygud4067]

@@user-os6dx1cz6syes, except you are forgetting magazine capacity

[@ttommyunger]

I’m an 82 year old, retired fed. I’ve shot three men over my years, killing one. I’ve carried 24/7 since 1962. I’ve owned all of them, carried most of them shot a lot of them. I agree with your basic premise relative to the overall superiority of the 45 caliber. I have found over the years that my Astra A-80 in 45 is my favorite every day carry. It fits my hand like a glove, it’s all steel, it’s 9+ one double stack, its barrel is under 4 inches, and it is safe to carry without a manual safety, since it is double/single action. I don’t use designer ammunition. My goal is penetration. I will concern myself with background issues during the conflict. I don’t think there can be any question that in the long run, designer ammunition is more likely to fail to feed than ball. I carry cross-draw with a pancake holster. The Astra is surprisingly easy to carry in that configuration. The weight of the pistol makes recoil negligible. I even prefer the European magazine release. I feel confident I can settle any issue with 10 rounds and in cross-draw there is zero chance that the magazine release will be inadvertantly activated. This can’t be said about standard magazine, release buttons. I am fortunate enough to own two of them, one blue, and one in hard chrome. I enjoyed your presentation, even though you get into the weeds more than I care to. :-) have a great day!

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for your service and the kind words for my work.

[@davewinter2688]

I’m civilian, only 71 years old so obviously don’t have your experience. In my “younger” days I used to carry an A-100 45acp single stack. Even then it was a bit heavy for concealed carry for me. I switched to Springfield Armory XD-E 45acp. It’s DA/SA with a decocker that also has a safety position. As such it can be carried cocked and locked with decocker in safety position or hammer down with decocker in safety position or hammer down with decocker in down position ready for first shot with double action trigger pull which is my preferred method as I am used to shooting double action revolvers. I’m still carrying 230 grain hardball because it’s reliable.

[@JohnnyRebKy]

Wyatt Earp wrote about gunfights and stressed the importance of accuracy above all else. That always stuck with me. His writing on the subject is a good read 👍

[@michaelhennegan9637]

I believe he used a .36 Colt Navy. I looked up the ballistics once, it is similar to a .38 Special.

[@bloodking73]

@@michaelhennegan9637 36 colt navy is weaker Than a 38 special, 80gr bullet at 800-900 fps with a 7 inch barrel, 38 special with send a 158 gr bullet at about the same velocity from a 3 in barrel

[@bigben9379]

@@michaelhennegan9637 He used a .45 You might be thinking of Wild bill Hickock who carried .36 colt navy revolvers early on .

[@bigben9379]

He carried .45

[@chuckyxii10]

Yeah except in his day you had five shots and maybe one reload if you carried an extra chamber around with you and so did the other guy. You had to be careful about your shots. Nowadays gunfighting has things like suppressive fire, and criminals running around with AR pistols n shit. I recommend watching Donut operators channel and all the shootouts he has on there and see if you think everything Wyatt Earp said applies to modern day gunfights.

[@turbo-bike7999]

I’m subscribing for no other reason than your honesty and practical explanation of these two cartridges. How anyone in their right mind would think the 9mm is as good or even better than a 45 baffles me. Thanks again for a non biased but practical lecture on this subject. Absolutely wonderful talk! 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@thatbeme]

This is 9mm, 45 , vs car door... 45 doesn't make it... kzbin.infoZ4c3BBuOAv8?feature=share

[@thatbeme]

Another 9mm through both car doors and through a soft clay brick....kzbin.infoS5JCR8qiGR4?feature=share...

[@thatbeme]

This is a 9mm, 45, vs door.....kzbin.infoZ4c3BBuOAv8?feature=share

[@yellowboxster06]

You are a brave man to tackle that age-old argument. I’ve always been skeptical of testing done in carefully orchestrated lab environments. Many accept the FBI testing protocols as being the gospel, and perhaps they are. I’m not in law enforcement, my 42-year working career was based on military weapon system evaluation. So what this tap dance really means is that I’ve always been convinced you have to pay attention to the field experience you accumulate; lab results don’t always tell the whole story. Great video.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words. I had the chance to work with Dr. Fackler, who developed the FBI testing protocol, but I agree with you. There are other aspects the gelatin procedure can't test for, such as the "psychological quit" aspect of the target giving up. I think the bigger, heavier projectiles "slap" the target harder, resulting in effects the lab can't reproduce.

[@HalfCrazy520]

@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb In comparing calibers using "Real world shooting data" there are so many variables. Some people get shot in the thigh with a .22 and they're done... some people soak up 5 rounds from a .45 and take a bus to the hospital. Personally, I'm of the mind that a bigger hole causes more bleeding and organ/tissue damage, which is the goal.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

@@HalfCrazy520 The "psychological quit" factor cannot be measured scientifically and the scientists dismiss first-hand observations, so the issue will never be settled.

[@firstjohn3123]

The old vets I talked to years ago spoke of the Germans who HATED being on the receiving end of the 45acp from the Thompson machine guns. Many would die of shock after being hit.

[@almaadams3631]

​@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jbI am convinced of the "slap" effect as well. However, 357mag/sig 125grn rapidly expanding HP. will cause a blood pressure spike, bursting capillaries in and around the brain. This is a simple brain bleed concussion. Instant incapacitation is preferable to multiple perforations that hope for blood pressure drop and oxygen starved brain cells.

[@cf7719]

Excellent commentary Sir, I i’ve been in law-enforcement for 32 years started out way back when carrying the Ruger GP100 in 357 mag (still one of my favorites) since then I’ve carried the SigP220 in 45 ACP,Glock 19 9 mm and currently the Glock 23 in 40 S/W. I’ve seen a few shootings over the course of the past 32 years and have heard all of the same arguments about the “superior” 9mm round. Our agency was considering switching back to 9 mm last year until we had an officer involved shooting,the bad guy was dropped with a single 40 caliber Winchester 180 grain SXT to the chest. That pretty much ended the discussion on switching back to 9 mm.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

I've carried a 9mm for more years than anything else, because of policy. When I could carry what I wanted, it was a .45. Any of them will work with good bullet placement, but the .40 & .45 offer a degree of insurance I prefer. I've been a pound of trigger pull away on three occasions and two of them were looking over the sights of a 5.56mm, so you see my real preference.

[@LL-fi4rr]

The M&P 45 is a good modern 45 platform. It has a thin, flat grip like the 1911, comes with or without a thumb safety, and increases the capacity from 7/8 rounds to 10.

[@HalfCrazy520]

M&Ps are nice. I have a couple of those, but I EDC a Sig P-320C in .45 ACP. 9+1, 25 ounces, 3.9" barrel, accurate, reliable, and soft-shooting. I carry a 9mm sometimes... but the .45 is my emotional support caliber.

[@Wastelandman7000]

I'll say this too. Anyone remember the summer of 2019? I'll carry a .45 as a civilian thank you very much. Nobody knows what the future holds and civilians can be stuck where they're having to shoot through windshields or doors...from the inside, to try and get away from people intending to do them harm. I watched what happened and learned that lesson well.

[@garypiont6114]

Thanks for your view on the leo pistol rounds. Good input.

[@TV-so2ej]

I have always heard the old adage: "When shot with a 45, you stay shot."

[@livewithnick]

Does that even make sense to you though?

[@alaefarmestatesllc]

@@livewithnickyes. Makes perfect sense

[@livewithnick]

@@alaefarmestatesllc how so? So you’re saying other rounds the bullets come back out and the wounds heal? Because if you think it makes sense then that’s apparently what you’re saying. And btw, in my career in L.E. and before as a paramedic I saw many people shot with all types of rounds. The .45 wasn’t the wonder bullet some of you want to pretend it is.

[@alaefarmestatesllc]

@@livewithnick I think you need help if you can’t figure out what op said. Not surprised being that u were in law enforcement. Most of u can’t shoot, and even more are completely useless. Try using that brain for once. It doesn’t cost a thing to do so.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

It's bullshit, but you always hear it.

[@eddiemclean7011]

I've had 230g fmj 45 rounds bounce off of auto side glass, fail to penetrate doors of 1970s cars, and bounce off the ridged area of 55 gal barrels, while 9mm 115g fmj went right thru. I still carry the 45 because I don't anticipate attacks by 1975 Pontiac Catalinas or a herd of rampaging barrels. My tests were not in a lab, but merely observations of a hillbilly with rounds to spare, junk to shoot at, and time on my hands. ☺

[@douglasduda9826]

Went shooting with my grandaddy in Florida and a few of my cousins. We were shooting into what they pulled from their giant canals there. Mostly clay ect, after shooting I was like what is that....well it was our slugs they bounced right off the mostly clay bank and I picked up everything 9mm, 40, except .223/5.56 ammo that was berried in there. I did not try to dig any out to see if they were intact. Most were as we shot fmj for practice and fun but a few were abit deformed others hardly at all.

[@889976889]

1970 car doors were sold steel cars today are sheet metal that’s a bad comparison

[@oscarbear7498]

Penetration is based on velocity, why 5.56 a 22cal bullet screaming at 3000 fps can go through 1/2 inch steel. Velocity is good yes, but it also is the most destruction factor to your gun, increases how loud it is. Why suppressed 45acp is better

[@eddiemclean7011]

@@oscarbear7498 One of the dumbest things I shot with a 45 was the B pillar side glass of a 75ish Monte Carlo. 230g fmj at about 6ft. Round bounced straight back and hit me in the little finger. Made me rethink the importance if the whole endeavor...momentarily.

[@jamesharris184]

Your experiments are gold. I've seen the same with 45 vs :9 caliber not piercing car doors. If you're in the business of protecting yourself that simply will not do. A lot of armored guards carry 40 for good reason it'll go through these barriers.

[@user-vf3gf4xq3v]

Round for round 45 is better than nine just based on crush cavity wounding with similarity constructed bullets. However, when you weigh the whole weapon platform using various factors, the added capacity and controllability of the 9mm JHP surpasses the 45 for most people. Sure one well placed shot can end a conflict but when you are getting shot at and need to reposition yourself it helps to have plenty of ammo available while you maneuver to a safer position or one of greater tactical advantage.

[@mackellyman5642]

And that the 45 is not for Newbes as per DT on YT, but I still love my 45 commander.

[@Voxguitarsrock]

Where I live mag capacity is capped at 10 so may as well go with the .45

[@denisdegamon8224]

OK John Wick

[@walkingwolf8072]

And plenty of vasoline when you go to the gray bar hotel for shooting an innocent bystander if you are just a civilian.

[@504Trey]

9mm better

[@Mr1970827]

Hello sir and a great video and information. Question, can you tell me the name of the chest holster you were wearing in your video. Thank you...

[@wlc1980]

My Sheriff’s office went to 40 cal Glocks around 2005, and around 2019 they started transitioning back to 9mm. The training department said it was because of ammo cost and availability. I don’t know, I retired in 2020 and kept my 20 cal as part of my retirement. I never had a problem qualifying with my 40.

[@codybbond]

I was originally issued a Glock 22 in 2003 and my agency switched to 9mm about 15 years later. When I wanted to stay with the 40 people asked me, “why, how can a 1mm larger make a difference?” I’d tell them think of it in reverse. Would you rather carry a 380 or a 9mm on the street? What does it matter if they’re the same caliber? Made them think.

[@wlc1980]

@@codybbondgood thinking

[@johnshepherd9676]

I use to do OR for the Navy. One thing I learned is that the head shed decides on the scenario that best supports their pre chosen alternative. In the case of the FBI analysis that claims the 9mm to be the best choice that scenario is what I call the wildwest style shootout. In the shootout shot placement is the only variable that matters. It is not a bad scenario for most police use of force incidents and virtually all armed citizen self defense incidents but it is not the only scenario that a LEO can face. One thing that FBI emphasis on shot placement misses is that shot placement is not independent of caliber. The bigger the bullet the larger the zone of good shot placement becomes. Penetration is a different story. I just saw a KZbin video (Gun Sam) where he tested 9 mm v .45 Auto through auto glass using Hornady Critical Duty. Both rounds had similar penetration through bare and FBI standard clothing barriers but when shot through auto glass the .45 had twice the penetration.

[@davidanglin3358]

I see the merits of 9mm (especially in micro / subcompact conceal carry pistols), and I know that advances in bullet technology has brought them a long way forward, but… I’m also a firm believer that bigger bullets leave bigger holes, and also those bullet advances have also made their way over to 45 caliber too. And as much as a 9mm can expand, a 45 doesn’t shrink! All that being said, shoot whatever you shoot best.

[@northshores7319]

The bigger the hole=the faster the blood loss.

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

Yes, when S&W aka Big Blue ran the recent rebate 2023 offer 🛒 I considered a new Shield .40 because they offered after market .357sig, 9mm barrels. The flash, blast 💥 didn't seem worth it. I owned a Shield 9mm from 2014 to 2016. The gun worked great, fed cycle factory 9mm; no problems.

[@patrickbilancione1201]

Kinetic energy on impact is far more important than projectile size. A good round that moves with great velocity and solid shot placement does the trick. I like .40, .45 and 9mm. I also love .22Lr. I think finding what one is the most comfortable with is the absolute most important. It is better to be armed with a weapon you can use effectively than have a weapon you just can't use correctly. Lots of science to test the ballistics but none of it matters if you can't hit anything. Size does not matter. Skill does.

[@northshores7319]

@@patrickbilancione1201 The bigger the hole=the faster the blood loss, therefore train well with a big bullet for best results.

[@markymark9961]

@@northshores7319as long as the hole is in the right spot. I do agree velocity is NOT the holy grail of lethality. It is but one key characteristic.

[@fatcapital88]

Appreciate your perspective here, especially as a LEO. I live in a state that limits us to 10 rounds. I understand the benefit of extra 9mm rounds. But trying to figure out the best overall round to carry if 10 rounds is the max. I feel like low weight \ high velocity .45 is the way to go.

[@atomicfrijole7542]

Thanks for explaining your perspective on the topic. You are the second seasoned police officer I've heard espouse the .40 and .45 as a preferable defense round. I've often wondered whether the WW2 German military's adoption of the 9mm round in its sidearms and subguns vs the American military's reliance on heavier .45 caliber spoke to this same difference in opinion that we see now. Looking historically at the use cases, it appears that both rounds were effective. In your experience, is a heavier 9mm a viable compromise?

[@kennethkeefer9080]

Spot on video and opinion my father survived ww2 and carried a 45cal throughout the war.He always preached the importance of the round seeing firsthand experience of it. In later years as a avid collector of firearms he had his choice of cal but his service 1911 hung on his bed post as his go to.

[@Wastelandman7000]

Yes sir. A .45 will always make a .45 sized hole. Because after two ammo droughts its possible you might be stuck with .45ball in the next one. And in FMJ .45acp is the only way to let lead fly.

[@h.r.puffnstuff8705]

@@Wastelandman7000 added bonus. 230grain fmj ball 45acp usually tumbles after a few inches on penetration ..

[@504Trey]

9mm better

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

The late R Lee Emery wrote of meeting a safari guide in Africa who had a early model Glock 17 9mm pistol. Emery, as a Glock company spokes person/PR offered to give the Safari Guide a brand new Glock 9mm gen 4, a few new magazines, holster etc. The guide declined the offer & said; my Glock 9mm has worked fine for 25 years ✔️ . I've killed 6 men, had several animals attack me, had fended off several robbers & thugs. The Glock 17 9mm never let me down or had any jams. Emery was impressed!

[@danny-fl9ws]

@@DavidLLambertmobile45 by night 9 by day 40 357 all great - 22 be careful . Seasoned 55 yrs

[@getsmart6765]

I thoroughly enjoyed this presentation and will be sharing it with several of my friends. Love your style, keep the videos coming Mr. Fairburn!

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

The .45 ACP is nothing to sneeze at at far as effectiveness. That said, the guns are bulky, the ammo eats mag space, and it has the least hard barrier penetration of all the common self defense rounds. Rounds in the gun equals time in the fight, and the .45 is always going to hold less.

[@Pikearea]

You need to re-edit. Your comment is so incredibly vague that it not possible to agree with or oppose.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

@@Pikearea I don't want an argument, nor do I require affirmation from strangers on the internet. It's okaybif you neither agree nor disagree.

[@jona5517]

Lehigh rounds in a 45acp, either extreme penetrators or defenders will go through multiple types of barriers with no problems and still penetrate at the fbi standards in a gel block. There are videos proving this.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

@@jona5517 yes, they will.

[@jacobmccandles1767]

@@jona5517 yes, they will.... AND a smaller gun with less weight, more ammo, less recoil, and faster split times will do the same thing... with or without boutique ammo.

[@jophoto934]

Nice seeing an old timer making it on KZbin. I’ve also been shooting for 55 years! Still have my first gun, .22 single action Colt I got when I was 4. I’ve been a Professional Firearms Instructor for 35 years. Sadly, because of $, my firearms profession has remained more a hobby than a career. Maybe someday I’ll start sharing my knowledge like you do. Read your stuff for years. You’re a good and knowledgeable man.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@ElMasChingon76]

@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jbold timer Fudd still creaming over the .45 acp😂😂😂

[@vladimpaler9382]

Excellent video covering the what, how and why of defensive handgun munitions. Currently we are seeing the movement to optic mounted pistols mostly in 9-mm...however I also would choose to carry the 45ACP with a +P SXT load as a defensive handgun when I have the appropriate cover clothing.

[@strider8933]

I was lucky enough to be able to carry my 1911 for many years as a duty gun. I did have a 9mm mandated at one agency and felt perfectly comfortable. I still carry a .45 regularly. as well as a little Glolck 43.

[@davewetherell9277]

Well done! Thanks for sharing your findings through experience, and research.

[@RangeRoninChronicles]

This has been a good series with a lot of good information. I recently made a comparison video between the G23 GEN4 (Law Enforcement Model) and the Glock G30S. I now carry the G23 in the GEN5 version with 180-grain defensive loads. While I could pretty close achieve .40 Smith and Wesson ballistics running 165-grain .45 ACP ammunition. The comparison between the G23 and G30S was running 180-grain Nosler JHP in the G23 and 185-grain Nosler JHP in the G30S. Hands down, the G23 was the winner. First, simply because the grip length of the G23 agreed with my hand as opposed to the G30S grip length that did not. Second, the G23 has less felt recoil and I could get back on target quicker than with the G30S. With the 1911 initially designed for 200-grain ammunition, and now the 230-grain ammunition is considered somewhat standard for the .45 ACP caliber, I feel that the .40 Smith and Wesson is a good trade-off from the .45 ACP over the 9mm. With that said, I do enjoy shooting the 9mm, but I now prefer the G23 in .40 S&W and a good 1911 in .45 ACP as my travel mates.

[@transtubular]

I do believe that with modern technology, the 9mm has become a very effective cartridge, much more so than it once was. I carry one daily. I do not think that it is the same as carrying a .45 of an equivalent design (i.e. Barnes TAC-XPD) but I do believe that ultimately handgun cartridges are lacking much when compared to a rifle. I can see where some people might come to the conclusion that a 9 is "as good as 45" because when comparing stats of One-Shot-Stops or maybe ballistics...that the numbers come out close. When once the 9mm was rated as an 89-91% one shot stopper versus the 45 at 90-92% (or something like that) that they think it's close enough. And they may be right when you take into consideration that the amount of training they can manage to become capable with one over the other and cost of ammo. To them, it is. This ammo capacity thing though, I gotta say I really dislike people who insist that their single stack auto or their magnum revolver has more than enough capacity for any given situation that ~they~ don't feel more is needed. That's fine. Good for them! Carry your Ruger SP101 with no reloads then. But outliers exist. They're outliers for a reason, and in the 30 plus years I have been carrying a sidearm I have never needed any more than what was in my gun. I hope that never changes but don't go telling me that I will NEVER need more...because I guarantee that it is THEN that more will be needed. Murphy's Law and all. Imagine if someone made a law saying you could no longer carry a .45 because it's too big and causes waaay too much damage so must be restricted to only the military.

[@denisdegamon8224]

So carry a couple of back up magazines or speed loaders. One is none and two is one. Mags have been a leading cause of stoppages in semi auto matic pistols.

[@MrSmith-zy2bp]

Usually carry a HK45. That's 10+1 45 acp always carry another magazine. Not because I'd need the ammo. The thing that malfunctions the most in a semiauto pistol is the magazine. As for carry a 9mm, no problem with it good self-defense ammo can be found, and I love Beretta 92s. However, as 5.7 has become more affordable, now that PSA is making it. For me, it's going to be more tempting to carry a 5.7 than a 9mm due to the light weight.

[@norrisdillahuntjr4570]

​@@MrSmith-zy2bpI here people say😅

[@douglasduda9826]

Most crimes have multiple attackers...just be ready.

[@MrSmith-zy2bp]

@douglasduda9826 The shooting starts multiple, attackers will usually run. A 75-year-old woman in Oakland just ran off two intruders with a 357. The best thing is to have both revolver and semiauto. You get 6 to 7 for sure round from the revolver, and then go to a semiauto with all the positives and negatives that comes with semiautos.

[@Captain-ln3vh]

I spent lots of time comparing coroner’s reports against fatal wounds and vital organ damage caused by different handgun rounds. .45cal from my research provides much better energy delivery to the body. I’ve been involved with many incidents over my career. It is not comforting to have seen how many persons struck by a 9mm round continued to fight or flee before they were incapacitated or died from their wounds. Personal experience made be start asking questions of our trauma surgeons locally post incident. I’m not indicating 9mm isn’t a good round or it’s less lethality. My only input regarding this argument involves stopping power and vital organ damage. I personally carry .45 for EDC, sometimes I carry 9mm because it’s easy to hide while out in public on my own time. Training can not be substituted for cal and number of rounds. Train often, train hard, like your life depends on it. It’s a bad day to have to shoot someone, it’s a horrible day if you have to shoot someone and it doesn’t stop them. Be safe y’all

[@redhawk44]

What do you think about the 45acp for woods carry and home defense vs the 10mm just curious about what you think I live in Montana and it won't be used on grizzly I have a ruger super redhawk Alaskan 44mag for that

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

I think the .45 is the top personal defense cartridge. A 9mm is adequate and the caliber I carry most often, but I still think the .45 is best.

[@leadfarmer556]

45 super or 450 smc 200 or 230 hardcast work large predators.

[@leveractiongypsy1848]

I lived on the Flathead and Montana for a few years and alot of shooters I talked to (Flathead and Cabinet Mountains) carried 45s (1911s) for woods carry usually with 45 Super or Buffalo Bore 255gr +P ammunition.

[@Joe-bc1kz]

I agree that the bigger calibers have more felt recoil but that it can be mitigated with training. My wife had never fired guns and so we started her training with 22s and have worked up to 380 and then to 9mm. It's the same concept if you're comfortable with 9mm and moving up to 40. I started shooting a Beretta 96 two months ago and at first the recoil was more than I was used to (obviously), but after 4 range sessions the recoil isn't that noticeably more.

[@GeezerWheels]

May years ago I owned a Khar single stack .45 and it was both accurate and reliable - was, in my opinion, greatly underestimated and under appreciated - and it used 1911 magazines. I did eventually moved to a .40, but the old Kahr was a great arm and easy to shoot. Thanks for a great video!

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

I've had a couple of Kahr pistols and love them, especially their smooth triggers.

[@retiredboxingref7620]

I too loved the Kahr 45. That I owned. Accurate and easily a tack driver. But I wanted more pellets to throw downrange at IDPA and such. Wish I still had it!

[@chrisyanik9984]

Kahrs rock.

[@cgsimons1187]

I sometimes carry a 9mm pistol because it is slim, easier to conceal, and more controllable for a smaller handgun. However, I refrain from kidding myself about the power of that round. The .45 ACP definitely packs a harder punch. The modern Federal HST 230gr looks to be the best manstopper among handgun bullets outside of the magnum category. Regarding the handgun grip on double stack .45 pistols: The Springfield XD did improve on the grip size compared to the Glock 21. However, Springfield unfortunately made mistakes that put them in the doghouse with the gun community.

[@Cruiser777]

I got the fn fnx45 Fifteen on the mag One in the tube. Had it for 10 years now, never had any problems with it.

[@Skinnymoose]

If i shoot you with 4 9mm in the chest or 4 45 acp i doubt you'd live long enough to notice a difference. So just shoot what you want and be happy, nobody cares what anyone else shoots anyway

[@walkingwolf8072]

I have most common handgun calibers, I used to carry a revolver most of the time. BUT as my heart gets weaker so do I, and the lighter plastic guns are easier to carry. I am confident with any caliber, even 22lr, my backup is a NAA mini revolver.

[@504Trey]

9mm better

[@HalfCrazy520]

Yup! I pack 10 HSTs... because... kzbin.info/www/bejne/enjOaohtrdlof5Y

[@timsimmons9995]

I did a unscientific test shooting an old steel water heater with 115gr 9x19 FMJ and 165gr .40 S&W FMJ. The 9x19 merely dented and none penetrated but the .40 punched holes in it. I was impressed by the .40 in that experiment. I like all the calibers, and find the .40 to be the best overall performance/capacity compromise in a duty sized handgun, but I find the 9mm ideal in a single stack sub compact for performance, controllability, and capacity. The .45 is a great round but suffers from capacity and/or size of the gun, and costs of ammunition for training and inventory. Regardless I have examples of these guns and like them all. YMMV.

[@josephtucciarone6878]

A few years ago, CA was limited to the old roster. So Shield 9 or 40? I picked the single stack 40 Shield in CA.

[@mikegoff7506]

I carried my p220 on duty my entire career and loved the 45. When I started, the 9mm was little morevthan a high capacity 38 special.. very inadequate. However, there has been massive advancements in 9mm ammo development since the late 80's. I would recommend you watch Garand Thumb with their 9mm - 45acp comparion on human torso ballistic gel dummies. Very enlightening

[@gottfriedleibniz8581]

P220 is the best 45, it is still to this day the only handgun I own, it has been up to this point the only one I need. Yes 45 has some issues, such as penetration performance on things like windshields, but for most purposes it will do what you need it to.

[@factsoftheconfederacy7151]

I like Garand Thumb, but that video is inherently flawed. The cross sectional area of the .45 ACP 230-grain bullet is .160 square inches; the cross sectional area of the 124-grain 9mm NATO bullet is .0989 square inches. The 9mm possesses only about 62% of the cross sectional area of the .45 ACP. A more traditional method of establishing the effectiveness of a given bullet is its sectional density, the ratio of bullet mass to the square of its diameter. Generally, the higher the sectional density, the better the penetration of the bullet in living tissue. The sectional density of the FMJ 230-grain .45 ACP bullet is .162; for the 124-grain 9mm NATO bullet, the figure is .144. By this traditional method of establishing a bullet’s terminal effectiveness, the .45 is again superior to the 9mm when both projectiles are of the FMJ type. By any mathematical calculation, given equal penetration, the .45 ACP bullet will create an approximately 40% greater permanent wound cavity volume than a 9x19mm bullet. These mathematical predictions are borne out by actual testing, such as the FBI ammunition tests. To return to the FBI test protocols, it will be remembered that in penetration tests the .45 ACP FMJ scored 100%, while the 9mm achieved a slightly lower 95.5% success rate. While the minimum acceptable penetration for police use was established to be 12 inches, the FBI tests concluded that a penetration of 18 inches was even better. During the tests, however, the FBI assigned no points for penetration beyond the optimum 18 inches. The .45 ACP FMJ bullets penetrated an average depth of greater than 28 inches, while 9x19mm FMJ bullets were a full 4 inches less. Some might consider this over penetration, but for military applications, greater penetration is both acceptable and desirable. As previously mentioned, penetration is only one aspect of bullet effectiveness. The size of the permanent wound cavity must also be considered, and the .45 ACP FMJ bullets in the FBI tests achieved average permanent wound cavities of 3 cubic inches, while the 9mm bullet permanent wound cavities were a full cubic inch less. This significantly increases the prospect of the .45 striking a bone or internal organ. This can be summed up in the FBI’s overall wound value that assigns a value of 2.91 to the military .45 ACP and only 1.65 to the M882 9x19mm. This value is “... the index of demonstrated wounding effectiveness, not potential, as measured by the FBI Ammunition Test results.”

[@factsoftheconfederacy7151]

FBI findings “Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration. Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration. However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance.35 Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60- 70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of the bullet in a cocoon like manner and prevent expansion. Insufficient impact velocity caused by short barrels and/or longer range will prevent expansion, as will simple manufacturing variations. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs.”

[@factsoftheconfederacy7151]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/naWUnZ6GZsufl9U

[@mikerobinson8734]

@@factsoftheconfederacy7151 in terms of sectional density A better comparison would be a 147 grn 9mm and the 230 grn .45. Both have equal sectional density but 9mm having higher velocity will penetrate better. The 45 230 grn is also moving about 300 ft per second slower than a 115grn 9mm.

[@denisdegamon8224]

You sir are absolutley right. I am ex infantry officer, so lets compare FMJ 9mm to FMJ 45 As far as the number of rounds in actual application of both rounds in combat. The nine generally take multiple rounds to stop the fight unless you head shoot the enemy.... they still come on after taking several hits which just pencile through the combatant. Now lets look at the 45 ACP, most stop the fight far quicker, normally one shoot to the thorasic cavity stops the combantant. It just dumps more energy to the target and it's wound cavity starts out larger which leaks more of the targets hydraulic fluid with little left over once it exits. As you stated the bullet technology can be applied currently to all calibers. This was all tested over a hundred years ago with the Thatcher tests performed on live animals when the Army was ditching the 38 in favor of a 45 heavy caliber pistol. In the energy formula 1/2 MV squared.... velocity is king but they tend to point to tempoary hydrostaic shock on tissue, however that comes to play in actual gun fights with velocites are in excess of 2,000 fps (rifle cartridges) and not at handgun velocities. Using Hatchers formula it takes into account the bullets diameter or mass x caliber x velocity devided by 7,000 grains. If you run the numbers you will always find that the high speed 9mm is almost half as effective as the number of a 45 ACP at any bullet weight. That would also comfirm the Armies testing data as performed on live animals. Speed alone does not necessarily make a cartridge more effective. Bullet weight and caliber play a equally impirtant part in the real world. Why do you think the US Delta (Special Forces) operation teams still use a 45 ACP model 1911. They can also be made more quite / surpressed because the rounds are subsonic 9mm's have to use 147 grain bullets and yet they still are at times still at or above 1,000 fps. I am also a life long shooter, firearms instructor and an avid reloader for over 45 years, so I am quite well versed on the topic of which I speak. So in closing I have to whole heartedly agree with your assessment.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for your support, and thanks for your service. A few years ago Delta switched to Glock .40 S&W, but they have some latitude in SpecOps, so some individuals may still be carrying .45s.

[@jesse111487]

Yeah I have an fnx 45 tactical and all I carry is Hornady critical duty 20 round mags it's an amazing round and platform

[@Pikearea]

Tell that to the guy who says there is .45 technology has not kept up with 9mm technology. I agree with you that if you want lots of energy, size, penetration as well as expansion, then your .45 is bad ass and to say that the equivalent in 9 is better is inaccurate. If you CHOOSE more rounds and are more comfortable with 9 then go with it. If you want 230 grains of penetrating, expanding, energy dumping beast at your disposal then .45 is your ammo. The Fed HST .45 + P 230 grain ammo is also amazing. If you want more rounds, smaller firearm, less weight, then sure stay with your 9mm. A lot of people, would choose super hot 5.7 ammo with three 20 round magazines! To each his or her own!!

[@user-jr6sd1hr2n]

Thanks for the info that was interesting. Can you please let me know what that holster rig was you were wearing in that short video with in your video. The shoulder holster you were wearing

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

The chest rig is home made. At the time all of the Alaskan Chest Rigs used a safety strap on an auto pistol that required two hands to draw. So, I used a double layer of skirting leather as a base, screwed on a Safariland ALS holster and built the harness from 1" webbing. You can now buy a similar rig from Safariland or from several other makers who use molded kydex holster shells. It is the best way I have found to pack a heavy pistol in bear country - avoids conflict with backpack straps and rifle slings.

[@ibnewton8951]

@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb Very nice outfit for your hardware. I’d offer a recommendation and would value your reply. What do you think about adding a lanyard to whatever handgun favored, since in the heat of a charge it’s possible that your handgun might be swatted away or just simply dropped?

[@jimeddpelham5244]

i agree, the military used the lanyard for the same reason, i would use one too with the chest rig to keep the pistol from being swatted away...better for emergency retrival...JimP.@@ibnewton8951

[@steveb6103]

The first firearm I ever fired was a 1911. At the age of 12. I had no problem with the recoil.

[@bobhoman9410]

Back in the day are used to shoot bowling pin matches. 45s were the gun. I never shot the 9 mm at bowling pins, but they said they would not knock the pins off the table. I know the 45 work very well with a good hit. I still smile at the pins flying through the air.

[@mississippichris]

"The only person you're bullshitting is yourself."

[@garander1954]

Never heard a more logical down to earth comparison . Agree totally . Hope to hear more from you .

[@corycarlson8712]

Even on swinging steel plates you can tell a difference. Even when they have the same exact energy numbers for some reason the 45 swings the plate more. I don't know if it's momentum or what but I always found that interesting.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

I agree, the .45 slaps steel plates FAR more than a 9mm. May not be a scientific measurement, but that added momentum has to make a difference.

[@876mpr]

My action load is a 240 grain cast at 765 fps. This is less paper energy than a standard 9mm, but it definitely hits steel harder.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

I agree, the difference in the "smack" on the steel plates makes me think a .45 hits harder, but the scientists can't measure that effect, so they ignore it.

[@876mpr]

@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb Yeah, and you get called an idiot by all the keyboard warriors if you refute them. Texas star plates hit with a 9mm drop straight down. They get driven back 3-4’ with my mild .45 ACP load.

[@63DW89A]

Which bullet is more powerful: the Buffalo Bore 9mm +P+ 115 gr @ 1400 fps [500 ft lbs ME] or the standard pressure 45 ACP 230 gr @ 850 fps [367 ft lbs ME]. Fire both into the sand trap of a 100 pound Ballistic Pendulum and the surprising answer is the 45 ACP is the harder hitting round. The 115 gr 9mm @ 1400 fps will move the pendulum at 2.76 inches per second while the 230 gr 45 ACP at 850 fps will move the pendulum at 3.35 inches per second for 21.3% greater striking force. This is because "Muzzle Energy" is NOT bullet striking force. "Muzzle Energy" is effectively the horsepower developed by the powder charge to accelerate a given bullet weight to stated velocity against aerodynamic and gravitational resistance. To accelerate a bullet past 1000 fps to the 20% higher 1200 fps velocity requires 44% more accelerating energy from the powder charge. Accelerating a 9mm bullet to 1400 fps will require 171 % more energy from the powder charge than accelerating the same bullet to 850 fps, and that is what the ME calculations mean. Mathematically, ME is the energy in the accelerating vector of the bullet. Once the bullet exits the muzzle, the bullet is mathematically on the "Deceleration Vector" because the energy developed by the powder charge has ceased and no longer has any influence on the bullet. This is why bullet striking force is not the same as the bullet accelerating force represented by "Muzzle Energy".

[@edgarsolis9293]

40 delivers more energy than 9 or 45. ( if you compare 124 gr to 180 to 230 gr ) or lighter grains to each caliber. That being said, the 3 calibers are good self defense options. It is just a personal preference. Use whatever makes you feel good.

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

I'm 52 & a Army veteran; licensed G armed security officer, since 2002. I own-ccw a few calibers. I carry 9mm +P on security details. I wear my snub .38spl M&P or carry my Glock 22 gen 4 with either a 9mm LWD 🐺 barrel or a Glock Store .357sig barrel. For ammunition I use bonded Golden Saber or Federal HST.

[@derekbootle8316]

This is like arguing which 4, 5 or 6 inch knives are better for bushcraft. Whatever works for you is best.

[@MrMZaccone]

No round is going to simultaneously perform equally well in all scenarios. You have to pick your battles and do your best to keep the battles from picking you. A round that penetrates well generally will not expand well. A round with low recoil generally has low muzzle energy, etc. etc.

[@xxxlonewolf49]

I've found 9mm to be more snappy and 45 to be more of a push and 40cal some weird mix between the two.

[@al-eteos-imhotepheru-bey3271]

get better guns than try again!

[@xxxlonewolf49]

@al-eteos-imhotepheru-bey3271 I see you are not to bright to say something to clearly stupid.

[@CraigShaw-qm5go]

Spot on video. Ask any combat veteran which caliber pistol they would prefer to have as their sidearm I think most would say 45. The 45 packs the umph to stop someone in their tracks. Having seen almost every caliber bullet wound, of course shot placement is the key. However I have seen people shot multiple times with both 9mm and 45 who survived because of lots of different variables distance, shot placement that missed vital organs, fast EMS and Hospital Interventions , and prepared cops i.e. tourniquets etc. My personal opinion is that cops or civilians want the capacity to keep fighting vs reloading which under stress is sometimes impossible. The debate has been going on for at least since Law Enforcement switched from 38spl to 9, 40 or 45 and will continue. There are just too many variables to consider for everyone to agree. But I have to agree with Dick on this one. I sometimes use the analogy that it’s like hitting someone with a ball peen hammer vs a sledge hammer both will kill you one just packs the bigger initial punch. Just my humble view from being in the business for 44 years.

[@user-un5my5bw4j]

9mm with 115gr hits with more energy than a 45acp with 230gr that is a cold hard fact

[@transtubular]

@@user-un5my5bw4j If neither load can dump all of their energy into the intended target, does it matter? Are you using "published" velocities or recorded? As in, what the manufacturer is claiming vs. random person measuring as a test. Many manufacturers have been proven to over rate their ammo velocities by a significant margin when actually tested by random KZbinrs. In some cases as much as 500 FPS less than what was claimed on the box.

[@stevenp8198]

@@user-un5my5bw4j the laws of physics says you are full of shit!! Math dont lie!!

[@spencermichaelson1882]

@@user-un5my5bw4jenergy on paper is one thing because it’s all velocity that goes into the dirt , the bullet is literally twice the weight

[@spencermichaelson1882]

40 and 45 are definitely good to have when all we have left is fmj

[@JohnLee-lr2op]

Wow, great video! Thank you for sharing. Among our family we have backgrounds in law enforcement, military, and have been blessed with more outdoor experience than any I know of. So, as you could imagine, the Sunday after dinner conversations at the family farm often turn to caliber and performance. Interestingly enough, this very conversation was had only a few weeks back. Not many have the "brass" to open this potential can of worms, but I'm glad to see someone else else out there who isn't afraid to breach the veil.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@mattdean7109]

Tell me that you don't know what you are talking about without telling me. This guy has no clue what the FBI test/report states. .250 of inch of expansion is not going to determine a gunfight. All hangun bullets perform mostly the same in a straight line through himan tissue. This/his old school thinking has been proven wrong. Verified by surgeons, they can't tell the wounds apart from a 9mm through .45. What wins gun fights is accuracy and follow-up shots. If a shooter can be more accurate and faster because of felt or perceived recoil, that round wins. That is why the 9mm is better than the .40 and .45. So what if the .45 puts a minuscule bigger hole in you after going through a barrier, a 9mm will penenatrate deeper, and that is what counts.

[@danr4746]

I saw a recent robbery on Instagram where the guy getting robbed was held at gunpoint by a person firing what I perceived to be a smaller caliber. The man being robbed reached into his waist for his weapon when the thief decided to shoot him. The thief shot 1 round into the man and the man being robbed was able to pull his weapon out and shoot back. Both men were shot with 1 shot each. The thief dropped dead instantly! His body froze up from complete shock due to what I concluded to be a bigger round. When you land 9 tiny pellets from a shotgun for example it will instantly incapacitate a person due to the very shock to the central nervous system. This video that I saw is why I'm switching from 9mm to 40. That and also because California only allows us to carry 10 shots in our guns. The 45 just doesn't fit in my hand. This man knows what he's talking about. 9 mm is not nearly as powerful as a 40 or 45. If you shoot a 45 and land in the shoulder it will drop a suspect because it is so devastating. You cant look at cadavers and pick put bullets to gauge their effectiveness. That is just not practical. Also, the point of perceived recoil versus actual bullet spread or shot placement has been shown over and over that you can shoot a 40 just as accurately as a 9mm when you train. The rest is in the mind. You are not less accurate with a 40 versus 9mm. 45 you can possibly make that claim.

[@lostagain2992]

I've never met anyone who can differentiate the caliber of bullet that is perforating their vital organs. Retired after 28yrs from a large city department. Experience speaking......... shot placement is what matters most. Give me as many bullets as possible! Even the best shooters can't miss fast enough.

[@MrSmegfish]

True ....as one guy said pros who can shoot often go for .22 and .32

[@rustypipes12]

I think most urban law enforcement went to the 9 due to gang activity plus the fact that most cops don't train enough with their weapons. I remember reading a study that out of all discharges less than 30% resulted in intended hits. A standard .45 holds 7+1 unless you get into the double stacks I totally agree with your assessment on terminal performance especially with rounds like the new Lehigh Defense extreme penetrator. I stopped a 300+ lb. bear with one

[@morbward8281]

I heard that law enforcement agencies went back to the 9mm because the little girl cops and soy boy cops could not qualify with the 40 or 45 because of recoil.

[@HoldFastAndStoic]

I enjoy this conversations. I feel it comes down to the weight, amount of ammo you can carry, recoil management and faster follow up shots as well. This was also the same reason we switched from .308 to 5.56 in the military. As far as the 9mm being able to penetrate car doors, windows and windshields, there are countless videos of LEO’s putting down suspects in vehicles. Check out Donut Operator on KZbin, he is a former LEO and does recaps of these incidents. Bringing up the FBI statistical data sheet as well as the pictures of penetration and wound cavitation would have also been helpful for those who have not seen the difference. In my humble opinion, I have seen quite a few people shot by all different calibers, I’m not convinced it makes all the difference in the world. Well placed rounds will find their home and the target will be taking the forever sleep. In closing, carry what you are comfortable with, carry everyday, carry a weapon system that you can carry all day and not be in pain, train like your life depends on it, because it does.

[@AMXSShirt]

I like them all depending on application. It took me a while to warm up to .40 but have become a fan.

[@milo8425]

I've always been a fan of small and light with higher capacity magazines. By those measures the 9mm is superior, but in terms of dealing damage per on-target shot I'm with ya. Though of course there's always a bigger bullet, you've just got to figure out where you're losing more than you're gaining.

[@murphmurph2124]

9 mm is thoroughly adequate it's about hitting your target not making more damage

[@larrycorn4508]

Glock makes a single stack .45 acp in the model 36. I carried a model 30SF with a double stack magazine. For most of my uniform duty I carried a S&W 28 and a S&W model 60 for a backup. I often carried a Browning 9 mm His power with the model 60 backup while in plainclothes.

[@HereOnYouTubeCommenting]

Shot PLACEMENT is the MOST important over caliber size

[@MichaelSingleton-mp5hh]

Like that holster,would make a good wood's carry rig!

[@Swampytheroot]

I posted a similar comment referencing 'smaller statured' personnel earlier today. Raleigh, NC went back to 45acp due to their environment. NC Highway Patrol sticks with 357 Sig. Because standard 9mm doesn't get done what they need

[@10-4CodyWade]

I highly recommend reading "Handgun Stopping Power" by Evan P. Marshall and Edwin J Sanow. They use data from thousands of actual shootings. They measure stopping power based on the percentage of 1-shot stops when a person is shot in the chest. The 9mm and 45 ACP are virtually tied in performance at between 85-90% for the top 4 varieties of ammo. The 40 S&W wasn't a big part of their study because they didn't have sufficient data at the time. The only cartridge that beat the 9mm and 45 was the 357 magnum, coming in between 90-97% with the top 4 ammo choices. The 41 and 44 magnums also did quite well but had fewer cases to draw conclusions from. Their study shows quite conclusively that the 9mm and 45 ACP are tied for effectiveness at stopping the bad guy when you hit him squarely.

[@jona5517]

The first Slim Line Glock was a G36, a 45 acp. It’s been around for almost 25 years. The next Slim Line was the G42, a .380acp….14 years later!

[@TimRHillard]

I carried a 1911 as my service pistol as an M1 Tanker. I never worried if it would be enough to take anything down.

[@eddiet204]

Great analysis. I carried 9/40/45 throughout my career. I currently carry 9. I can shoot all equally well, but I don’t have grip issues primarily because I shoot thousands of rounds of all three annually. I agree that there’s no way todays 9mm self defense is equal to todays 45. We carry HST and the energy displayed isn’t even close. You can make the argument that a flyswatter and an anvil will both kill a fly so they’re both equal.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Well said. Thanks for the kind words on my analysis.

[@autosavers3]

The 9mm, .40 S&W and the 45acp all suffer as a good fight stopper when compared to a rifle or shotgun. Handgun stopping power is a myth. The the technology of modern projectiles relating to controlled expansion and increased velocities due to improved powders have greatly improved the 9mm in penetration that now meet the FBI requirements. I think most will agree 9mm won’t out perform the .40 S&W and the .40 S&W won’t out perform the 45 ACP But the gap has closed in recent years to where there’s not that much difference. I don’t recall the FBI claiming the 9mm out performs the .45 ACP The FBI claims the 9mm is the better choice due to many reasons a higher volume of ammunition in the gun and your back up magazines, lower recoil, smaller frame guns that are more user friendly for most people and easier to make faster more accurate fire. What stops an attacker with any of these calibers is shot placement and with any skill level your better off having more ammunition available and now that the 9mm meets the penetration requirements it’s really a no brainer what the best option is. John Browning understood it when he designed the browning Hi Power, the United States military understands it and the FBI has figured it out. Studies shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target what about adding multiple attackers? The idea that more bullets isn’t important is a ridiculous statement, I’ve never heard anyone that’s been involved in combat say they had too many bullets but there have been many that ran out that wish they had more I’ll refer you to the 1986 FBI Miami shoot out. The FBI has the best ballistic lab in the world and has spent millions coming to their conclusions not sure a guy name Dick sitting in his kitchen has out smarted their research LOL. I will agree there’s a whole lot of bullshit being spewed!

[@jjgriffin3275]

100%

[@thomaspalmer7900]

Actually the rifle & shotgun trump ALL pistols & revolvers!!! One shot from a .223 caliber or 12 gauge 3” magnum 00 buckshot or slug gonna send someone to see Jesus!!! Call the medical examiner shits over!!!

[@EwokyBalboa]

As soon as I saw this video title card I knew exactly the type of person I was going to see behind the camera. I'll take my 17rds of 9 over his 7rds of 45 every day of the week

[@michaelhamilton7908]

​@EwokyBalboa I will stick to my 16rds of 10mm.

[@autosavers3]

@@michaelhamilton7908 The 10mm will put an end to that debate. Good choice.

[@joshualittlejohn7915]

I would like to know your opinions on 10mm as an EDC

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

As the "magnum" of the normal-sized auto pistol lineup, I think the 10mm is a fine carry pistol if you choose your loads carefully. The bear loads, maximum pressure rounds with heavy, hard cast bullets are not a good self-defense choice since they will undoubtedly over penetrate. An all-copper Lehigh bullet would be good or the all copper hollowpoints.

[@mattspriggs5945]

There are some very musinformed people. I was heavy into the 10mm and have abandoned it. It offered no advantage over the 45 ACP for ME. I have observed 45 ACP out perform the 10mm - even penetrating further through water jugs depending on the loads... think on that. So, when the gun store employee tells ma a 9mm is superior or even on par with the 45 ACP, Ive heard all I need to hear. TKO, momentum and ACTUAL DAMAGE opposed to energy foot pounds can be a good start. Great video!

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thanks for the kind words.

[@stevenp8198]

Do you not reload?? The 10 can smoke the 45 with proper loads....dont get me wrong, im a die hard 45 auto fan.

[@mattspriggs5945]

@@stevenp8198 I suppose you can go as far as you want with either - 10mm from 40 s&w mild loads right up to full house 10mm, but you can do the same thing with a 45, so I suppose it comes down to preference, but I see absolutely no advantage to the 10mm based on the weakest loads right up to the hottest I've used - at best they performed roughly the same with the heavy 45 ACP actually outperforming it.

[@grigorirasputin5020]

@@mattspriggs5945 Magazine capacity?

[@G53X0Y0Z0]

@@mattspriggs5945 - I'm curious what your hot 10mm loads were, and what .45 acp rounds you were comparing?

[@paxdrago1]

I believe i watched some vidoes where 45 had problems expanding at longer ranges than 40sw or 9mm. The expansion threshold was closer at 45 velocities than the others. So a little extra range or barriers to slow it down more often prevented 45 expansion. The smaller faster 9mm suffered the least. I suspect somone will mention using hot 45 ammo. This will have an effect on recoil as well as wear on the handguns... Why not just move to 10mm since we are there anyway.

[@TheRobman139]

Were those .45s that were having trouble expanding 230 grain slugs? I can see where expansion might be problematic for those given their typically lower velocities. But IMHO, 185 is the ideal weight for .45 ACP projectiles in a fighting round. Then you get the necessary velocity for expansion and you still have a pretty heavy bullet compared with most other options.

[@kentuckywindage222]

​@@TheRobman139 200gr was the original weight Browning used. The military, if memory serves, asked for 230gr. I've used hot .45, 185gr, 200gr and 230gr. That 185gr makes somewhat of a cavern in regular loading. The 230gr. HST I tested were tarantulas. I use the 9, .38 in a hidden hammer 638, 45 in a G30. All have there use as with any tool. I carried 9 and 45 for duty. After being hit at close range with a shotgun. Like being hit with a sledgehammer and a hornets nest and blow torch inside, retired and disabled, (1993. Went back to work as a city officer in a small town until health problems. Organs lost, shrapnel etc). Pistols are defensive weapons and long guns offensive. I will take a shotgun within it's range if given choice. Pistols, I feel shoot what you shoot best. A hit with a .22, beats a miss with a 44 mag. I agree with Video. If lm gonna drain a bucket, I want to put the biggest hole I can in it to do so. Any hole where there wasn't one isn't good. My humble opinion.

[@jeffheyer7783]

Just got a g30 and can’t wait to try it out :) I have g19 but wanted something that packed more punch 🤜

[@jona5517]

I love my g30. Had a gen3 now have a gen 4 with the short frame. With the flush 9 round mag it’s even more concealable when needed. Loaded with underwood extreme defender plus p.

[@davidkeck1878]

Just to muddy rhe waters farther, a friend who is also a gunsmith carries a 1911 chambered in 38. Super which he describes as 9mm magnum. What are your thoughts?

[@handsomejamie7279]

That’s like me telling my kids that frozen pizza is better than restaurant pizza because I want to save money.

[@apexpredtr]

I guess, if the restaurant serves the same pizzas you buy in a supermarket - so it is true!!

[@aboutmyfathersbusiness6907]

It's way more people alive that have got hit by 9 mm ....... With the so-called "upgrade" (which they did to 40 and 45 as well) not too many people here that have got hit by 40and 45 cal, I don't care what an agency has picked, we have first-hand knowledge from the streets what 45 + 40 caliber does over the subpar 9mm.

[@andycole5957]

I recently got a FN 510 in 10mm, and even the highest power rounds I can find for it are actually very nice shooting. I always assumed that since the FBI said it was too much recoil for their agents to handle that it really had crazy recoil, but it's actually not bad at all. I have much more training than FBI agents, but I'm not large by any measure, but I still have no issue with it. My 10mm is a little too big for EDC, especially with the light mounted on it, but I'm now looking for a lighter and more compact 10mm for EDC.

[@jordanduran1726]

I have less experience but I have always thought 10 mm would be a great round and gun that you could take anywhere. I was also looking for something that was more compact, something akin to Glock 19 size, but haven't really found anything.

[@kimpippin8583]

Thanks Dick for your detailed tutorial on the 9mm vs. 45 debate that has gone on for years, amongst LE and civilian users of these two calibers.

[@intel-qw3ee]

Let’s just all agree the 10mm is king of the hill.

[@delgande]

But why? Is only marginally longer than the 45 but not exactly bigger. Is it just loaded really hot?

[@intel-qw3ee]

@@delgande it’s loaded a lot hotter. Muzzle energy is double the .45acp

[@billmorgan5589]

44 magnum might have something to say about that.

[@ryanranard5187]

500 S&W anyone?

[@kevinmuirhead6291]

Glock has a single stack 45 acp. It’s the Glock 36. I’ve had it since 2008 and it’s been flawless. No malfunctions and It’s very accurate. 6 round magazines. It’s about the same size as the Glock 19/23. I use the Underwood Extreme Defenders in all my self defense pistols. They are the best barrier blind ammo also great penetration.

[@walkingwolf8072]

Shame they cost $3 a round.

[@rossifumifan1]

I love your video! I love the old school plain facts and lack of nonsense. We need people like you now more than ever. I wish you great success with your channel. I can't wait for more of your content. Thank you, sir. Stay safe.

[@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb]

Thank you! You too!

[@williammoseley17]

Thanks Dick. ISP from 1984-2011. I believe the Glock 22 was the best of the 3 weapons (S&W 439 and 5904) I had been issued in my career. I believe the department planning on returning to the 9mm is a mistake.

[@HoffnerPrecision]

Dick, I really like the channel. I think you have a lot of wisdom to share, and I love that you’re not afraid to poo on the mighty 9mm a little. 2 very uncommon traits on KZbin.

[@PlunderAndPillage]

I have switched from my 45 and 9mm carry weapons to a 4" M&P 10mm 15+1 capacity. It is easy to carry. The recoil impulse is very manageable and it flat out destroys a 9mm and is also better than the 45.

[@nickdial8528]

Would you be OK if I used some clips of your video for content on the same subject?

[@mikegurv1818]

Thank you for the great informative video.

[@sandradempsey4648]

Hubby started out carrying a Para Ordnance Hi-Cap .45, backed by a .380 Guardian. Later switched to .40 S&W in both duty and backup (Glock 35 & 27), because the backup could use both mags. Retired, he carries either 10mm Glock 40 & 29 or .357 Magnum S&W R8 & PD360 (both with Hilary hole deleted). Lately he doesn't believe anything coming out of the Ef-Bee-Eye.

[@jason200912]

357 store bought ammo is the same as 9mm +p. The two even use the same bullet haha

[@sandradempsey4648]

@@jason200912 Buffalo Bore or Underwood 800+ foot pounds muzzle energy is waaaay beyond pathetic factory rounds, and is all he uses.

[@egregiousblunder5395]

@@jason200912 You are confusing .357 mag with .357 Sig.

[@jason200912]

@@egregiousblunder5395 SPECS Caliber 357 Magnum Grain Weight 158 Muzzle Velocity 1240 American eagle

[@egregiousblunder5395]

@@jason200912 Again, you are confused. A 9mm or .357 SIG does not use the same bullet and or loading's as a .357 Mag. They are similar, but not the same. The .357 SIG does not push a 158gr bullet. 99% of the time its a 124gr or 147gr bullet. If we compare bullet to bullet 124gr .357 SIG vs 125gr .357 Mag, the Mag's bottom end velocity starts where the SIG maxes out. I've been developing loads for many calibers including these two for the better parts of two decades. I know the differences. You are comparing Apples to Oranges here. 9mm +P is nowhere near .357 Sig or .357 Magnum when comparing same or near same weight bullets. Go get some reloading manuals and educate yourself.

[@Mbartel500]

Whatever bullet evolution that has enhanced the 9mm performance over the years, has also had the same effect on the .45 auto. Battlefield performance with FMJ bullets, has proven that the .45 auto has a significant advantage in terminal performance over the 9mm.

[@chubbyjohnson5480]

But they aren't putting as much attention into advancing older cartridges like the .45 ACP.

[@Mbartel500]

@@chubbyjohnson5480 almost every bullet type, configuration, construction, shape, and material, that is available in 9mm is also available in .45 auto. The 9mm is 10 years older than the .45 auto.

[@jasongreen9603]

I like this dude he's honest straightforward and knows his s*** doesn't seem to take it personal like a lot of the other guys do

[@kentwilliams3326]

Having served 33 years in the U.S. Border Patrol including being responsible for specification writing for weapons, ammunition, leather goods and targets I have no doubt that the underlying reason for dropping back to the 9mm was lack of recoil tolerance by many officers, not the Border Patrol, but after being linked to Inspections through the formation of CBP the problems began. In one CBP Inspections class there was a 50% failure rate with the 40 S&W cartridge while the Patrol had zero failures! My fellow Firearms Instructor and I were tasked back in the 1980's with testing all available .357 ammunition to determine what was best for duty carry. We conducted many different tests and for the fun of it added 9mm ball and .45 Ball. (Full metal jacketed projectiles) We were given free reign to shoot up any number of cars we wanted in a local junk yard. In .357 the 125 grain JHP won, but all .357's shed their jackets when passing through windshields as did the 9mm 124 grain ball (FMC) rounds. The .45 ball round went through our 3/4" plywood front seat target, through the head rest and through the rear seat! Just for fun we put a 3/4" plywood target into the rear seat with a 1" dot where the head would be. I fired 5 rounds at the rear seat target through the wind shield at varying angles. After the fifth round we found that all five were the 1" dot!! Amazing! BTW - My vote would be for the .357 Sig in a reliable pistol.

[@user-os6dx1cz6s]

I'm surprised you didn't say the 45 bounced off

[@DavidJones-we2ex]

Us border patrol huh? I don't know how you served but the people today facilitating the invasion into our country that call them selves border patrol deserve to be in prison. "Just doing my job" isn't an excuse and all we have at the border in 2024 are complete cowards.

[@miltechmoto]

Try that with 9mm solid copper.

[@joshuabracke5775]

That is all well and good, at the time that data was accurate. But I think if those tests were re-ran with todays loadings, I wonder if the results would be different. 357 Sig is still a great round. Rock on!

[@chrisbrown2627]

Or depleted Uranium . @@miltechmoto

[@tonycolca2241]

One thing to consider also is gun powder and bullets are both way better than they used to be. That not only makes the 9mm better than it used to be but also the .40 and 45. I carry my glock 36 a lot.