Toolsetters for Tormach and other CNC Mills. Part 1

Five types of toolsetters introduced - with pros and cons - which one is best for you?
Part 2. • ToolSetters Part 2
This video is not an endorsement of the blue mechanical toolsetter. There are accuracy issues with it. For example the Z zero is not accurately repeating.
Part 3. An improved design tool setter • Improved Design Tool L...

[@Threadexpress]

Please Note. This video is not an endorsement of the blue mechanical toolsetter. There are accuracy issues with it. For example the Z zero is not accurately repeating. I plan to do a review video on it soon. Cliff

[@sameh.a.mohamed]

Super informative as usual. Thanks Cliff. Keep that coming.

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks. Cliff

[@jameswalker8338]

Very helpful in understanding this area. Appreciate you taking the time to post the video.

[@Threadexpress]

Cheers James.. Cliff

[@stigodiy2989]

Cliff- thanks for the time you took to show the differences. I bought a used tormach that had all the Tormach different tool setter options plus the haimer and electronic touch probe (not your ITTP). I end up using the height transfer gage and haimer the most for convenience sake. The backlash in my axes tend to make efforts at precision futile. I also got a rapid turn with it and your videos related to it were extremely helpful when I set it up and made parts. Keep up your good works!

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks for your interesting comments Stig. Yes backlash is a worry on low cost machines !Cliff

[@qzwqsy]

Kia Ora, Great video thank you for the education.

[@joearledge]

Oddly, I found nearly the exact same error on my tormach 440 with a 1/2" endmill. I was using a granite block and height gauge from tormach and was 100% confident in the measurements, as they were very precise and repeatable. I used the endmill to face off a bunch of stock, and kept coming up 0.002 to 0.003 inches too much stock removed. I'm kinda new and it's not that critical for this project, but it made me wonder. I added a 0.002" to the tool length offset and it was dead nuts on(to the best of my ability to measure +/- 0.0005"). So I've watched the video twice, and I'm trying to determine the most accurate method of setting TTS tools. It seems like, in the absences of a full on production shop, the analog setter with the dial indicator is the most accurate while still being practical for hobby/small production??? It seems like the electronic one has too many things that could make it less accurate, unless you toss a ton of money at it?? I'm looking for one that I can trust without selling a kidney. Thanks, Joe

[@Threadexpress]

Hi Joe. One factor worth considering is that an electronic tool setter needs to be left on the table all the time, in order to take advantage of its time saving potential. But then you really need a good quality unit, set up and safety wiring etc. that can run long term in a coolant/chips environment, without faulting. Faulting can cause expensive damage. Cheers, Cliff

[@tux1968]

Thanks for this video, it was really informative and presented very well.

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks for the feedback! Cliff.

[@joels4208]

Love you videos... Great advice! Thanks.

[@Threadexpress]

Cheers! Cliff

[@cncdavenz]

Thanks for the video. Still using a sheet of paper for every tool change. Retired now so maybe some more time on the mill.

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks - congratulations on your retirement - now you can really enjoy engineering! Cliff

[@nickp4793]

I'm on a Taig desktop CNC that uses ER collets built into the spindle nose. So the same tool will be at a different height each time you put it in. I'm doing the paper shim method on top of a 123 block every time I change a tool now. For an even lower end hobby mill like the the Taig, the electronic setter seems like it may save a lot of time as compared to the dial indicator type setter. Because you need to find the length every single time you change tools forever, as opposed to only one time when first putting a certain tool in its toolholder.

[@Threadexpress]

Hi Nick. Sorry I missed your comment until now. I see your point. You are saying each time to install a tool an ETS auto installs the tool length in the tool table. The problem is, with the Tormach anyway, you need to reset the ETS ref position each time you start up the machine due to start up Z referencing errors, if you want to do accurate work. (this is requested by the pathpilot software) This somewhat negates the advantage of an auto ETS. I will be publishing a video on this soon. Cheers Cliff

[@chrismayhew3651]

Thanks for a good comparison of the different types of tool setters. I have never been very confident of the results of my height gauge tool length measurement so I only use that to measure a drill if I'm drilling through and don't want to mess with the setup. I do have one of the LED types but I don't like that either as sometimes the LED flickers. I have been thinking of getting the dial indicator type because I like to see the needle move and gauge how close to "0" I am but not got around to it yet (and probably won't). What I do is set T0 using a gauge block under the spindle face (a little blue marker pen helps) then set the Haimer offset using the same gauge block. I then use the Haimer to set a zero reference point on the back jaw of one of my vices and store that XYZ in the offsets table, then use some shim (or sometimes a measured dowel pin) between the tool and the vice to gauge when the tool is at "0". I think your idea of starting the tool low and raising it is a better idea, testing if you can roll the dowel pin under the tool. This would probably be safer and quicker. I use the Haimer to set the work offset. The idea is to make the errors common - if there is an error in the Haimer offset, then that will be common to both tool and work offsets. This method seems to be consistent - I don't get variations in surface heights on parts when changing tools, though I won't necessarily get dimensional accuracy, though that is not so important to me, within reason. My height gauge doesn't reliably repeat but I'm confident the Haimer does. It is surprising how much the vice jaw offset changes between cold morning and the sun beating down on the steel garage door - 0.025 mm is not uncommon overnight. Keep up the quality content, it's appreciated.

[@Threadexpress]

Hi Chris - Thanks for posting your experiences and thoughts on the subject here. Cliff

[@Ryan-dz3jo]

Thank you, very helpful.

[@Threadexpress]

Cheers, Cliff

[@intagliode]

Nice explanation Cliff. Only advantage with electronic Z setter is in process tool breakage detection on production runs. Or if you have an ATC so you can set a magazine of tools up quickly. 👍

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks for your feedback. Cliff

[@CNC4XR7]

A thorough and informative analysis. I personally think touch sensors are not very useful for your low cost cnc machines. There great for cnc routers doing manual tool changes. They may also be beneficial for some more production oriented machining where you want to check for tool breakage before or after a machine operation. But I think that may be out of the realm of 90% of us doing machine with these category of machines.

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks Sam - Good points. Thanks for your feedback. Cheers Cliff

[@timogross8191]

Maybe late, but just tried this while watching. The macro on my machine will not move z axis when the sensor is not plugged in. 2nd switch during macro run does not cause E-stop, but normal tool alarm. So it is not as scary as you made it sound, but I did not know that before I watched. 🙂 Probing without tool, machine stops at a min height before spindle crashes into tool setter.

[@murrayedington]

I've got one of those electronic Chinesium tool setters and it works well with the automatic tool offset measurement functions in my Centroid Acorn controller. This does everything for you including banging the value into the tool table, so it works for me. I also have an even crappier one on the Newker (Chinesium) controller on my Bridgeport. Having written my own macro, it does the tool measurement and avoids having to enter long numbers on the tactile keyboard which is a PITA. I am more sold on the electronic ones than you it seems. However, there is likely no right or wrong answer. I had mine apart this week after an (ahem) incident. Nice ground steel shaft and bore but some of the other stuff was shocking. Mine had a gratuitous LED inside that wasn't even connected up, like some form of secondary growth. So far it's been surprisingly repeatable. I'd like something a bit better engineered, possibly a used "proper" one if I can find one...

[@Threadexpress]

Interesting and entertaining comments Murray, thanks.

[@CNCPRINTBLOGSPOT]

very good video! top job! :-)

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks for your feedback! Cliff

[@h.766]

Excellence video. 👍

[@Threadexpress]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@nziniz25]

I would love to see an inverted ITTP that works similar to a Heidenhain tt120 or similar I realize the ITTP needs to sit vertical down for the lubricant to to stay in the right place

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks for your feedback. Cliff

[@slindeedean]

At about 7:00, I noticed that you have several TTS set screw tool holders in the background with tools mounted. Could you comment on when it is acceptable to use set screw tool holders versus collet tool holders?

[@Threadexpress]

Good spotting! I have about three there. Well thats an interesting question. While set screw holders are in theory less accurate than the collet type. With TTS and low cost/quality collet holders the comparison is not so clear. Both options may have errors and you really need to indicate the tool to check for concentricity with critical work. Have you seen my video series R8/TTS vs BT30 . kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2rVfpWJgd50rK8 Cliff

[@slindeedean]

@@Threadexpress Purchased by 770 used; it came with a dozen set screw TTS, which I promptly retired and replaced with collet TTS, because I could not imagine how they could be used accurately. On the other hand, I could avoid buying more collet TTS if I knew when a set screw TTS is appropriate (like when accuracy is not important, good luck with that). Maybe you could think about a video on that topic. Also, I expect you are not getting your way oil from Tormach for shipping costs. How careful should one be regarding selecting an alternate way oil, say a Mobil blend? I did view the threee R8 vs BT30 videos a few weeks ago. Really appreciated those videos, as it is clear to me that my situation is definitely R8, and now I have piece of mind after the videos.

[@shaunybonny688]

Isn’t a probe and having the ability to use it on most cnc machines like 10x-20x the cost of a Haimer?

[@Threadexpress]

Hi - Sorry I do not follow your comment. Cliff

[@Venthorn]

Why do we need to (theoretically) set the z reference height on the blue toolsetter with a feeler gauge when we have a probe? Can we not probe the table, then probe the toolsetter, then the reference height is (toolsetter - table)?

[@Threadexpress]

Hi Morgon. So I am sure what you are asking, let me know the time position on the video where you question arises. Cliff

[@Venthorn]

@@Threadexpress At 17:45, the screenshot on the top left-hand side discusses how to set reference height. (You zeroed out the spindle earlier using the dial indicator part of the tool setter, but same idea.) I guess what I'm not sure about is why we care about where the toolsetter's location is in Z, if we have a probe. The idea being: Probe to the ground bump on the tool setter. This is height zero, and the probe's length is set to 0. Then zero out your other tools as shown in the video with the blue toolsetter. Then when we set up our part, we can set G54 X/Y/Z based on the probe location. All the other tool heights are the differences between them and the probe's height, which we arbitrarily defined to be zero. I shouldn't have mentioned probing the table, that's a red herring that we don't need to care about.

[@Threadexpress]

@@Venthorn Hi Morgan. OK If I understand you correctly. Re: " I guess what I'm not sure about is why we care about where the toolsetter's location is in Z, if we have a probe." In short we don't need to care. We can place the toolsetter just about anywhere, and as you said, probe the bump and then set the tool length. Me showing the probe set up at 17:45 is probably bad timing on my part for bringing in a concept explanation at this point..as it has lead you to think this must be done each time. It is a while since I made this video but from memory, I guess I wanted to show this procedure somewhere in this video, but putting it in elsewhere ie before demonstrating the toolsetter, would risk loosing the toolsetter focus too early on. Cheers Cliff

[@mobo9391]

With all the tool setters out there that are junk and made of China crap it would be nice for those of us that do production work on a smaller scale. I think the Tormach ETS at $600 is ridiculous but I paid $130 for one that has .001 repeatability but it didn’t last 6months before it started to have issues. So like your Hallmark touch probe it would be awesome to see an option to have a ets to buy w it.

[@Threadexpress]

Hi MO BO - thanks for the feedback. Cliff

[@artmckay6704]

The end results would be absolutely astounding if every creative individual openly shared their discoveries. Society would then advance by unbelievable leaps and bounds. Sadly, that would only work to its full potential in a world populated only by altruistic people. Nevertheless, it is a thought worth weighing and ruminating on. Imagine a world wherein the entirety of the populace was respectful of inventors ideas and would never dream of stealing their ideas like Edison so enjoyed doing. In this world inventors do need to protect their ideas from thieves and, as a result, we are all at the disadvantage of not knowing the details of this or that breakthrough. Sigh.... If only people were trustworthy and honest. What a world we'd live in then. A world where proprietary secrets were unnecessary. Perhaps, one-day, down the road, this world might advance to that point, a point where each person respected the inventors and their sometimes wild and crazy creativity. I want that world. I want a world wherein inventors can share their discoveries without fear of being robbed blind. I want that future world......

[@Threadexpress]

Nice sentiments for an engineers utopia Art. Cheers Cliff

[@JarppaGuru]

you not need any of them. just measure tools same place and hit your magic own made macro g code and boom. height is on offsetpage. just need make that macro program its easy LOL machine max z travel - machine current z -measure point height from table= toolheight. all you need is change max travel so tool height is how you want it be from tip to flat face on your cnc behind your toolholder that allways same. that analog gauge would be nice. it could be use on lathe too. where you need keep door closed to move axis. try measure tools lol. it is so not acurate spin chuck and scrape part when door is closed LOL analog gauge would be nice measure z. x is easy and can be kind of there rest is just make part over size with offsets and measure move offset back. vola lol

[@Threadexpress]

Thanks for your input! Cliff