Top 10 Hi-Fi Lies, Myths, and Misconceptions you've been told by "experts".

Discord Link: / discord

[@stopthefomo]

On “omnidirectional” subwoofers, I think that term oversimplifies the intent, which is to try and distinguish lower frequencies as having wave characteristics vs directional (bouncing pool ball) characteristics. You treat the sub as a wave generator with all the issues that entails including frequency cancellations and room modes. For some to say “it’s omnidirectional” leads us all down the wrong path.

[@NemoPropaganda]

omg bro I love your work!! The energy you bring to your videos is the best!!! I only watch you and HDTVTest for TV advice. I've been itching to get a new TV but I already have 2 good ones so it's def just fomo 😂 I have a sony X950G and a Samsung RU8000, oddly I prefer the RU8000. Keep up the killer work!!

[@panjiekaputra2508]

Just subscribed just because you nailed it 10/10 ahahaha. Gonna watch the rest of your video soon. Cheers bruh

[@NemoPropaganda]

hell yeah brother, welcome aboard :)

[@DaveK183]

Really enjoy your videos.. keep up the good work.

[@darpanbhuyan1909]

Great list! The raging debates/discussions in any audio forum.

[@nonametofame]

Really glad to hear your practical, sensible approach to the hobby. Only a sith deals in absolutes.

[@erics.4113]

I absolutely agree with you 😊

[@fdee6998]

So correct about artists recording. There is no way they know what my room acoustics are. How could they know what my system should sound like? My ears. My sound. 👍

[@mattkalis1567]

Love it! Thanks again. The 'absolute' that I hate to hear is that "newer designs are better than older designs." There are tons of examples where that is true. And there is absolutely a better chance that newer designs were developed with more advanced technology tools. But there are many examples of newer designs where the goal is to remove cost to improve profitability. It all depends on what the design goals were at the time!

[@NemoPropaganda]

100% agree.

[@ridirefain6606]

Ditto: One of the brands that come to mind for me is Krell. I find the sound of the gear produced through the min 90's to early 2000's more engaging than their current line. Is it still good stuff? Yes, absolutely. Just voiced differently.

[@georgeanastasopoulos5865]

A very enlightening lecture. Thank you for this extra information on hi fi audio equipment.🔉🎼🎵🎶

[@gueroblanco]

another super dope video, thanks!

[@joshdekubber3631]

Thanks for sharing brother!

[@riccitone]

“I don’t believe in absolutes” ❤️🙏🏼 Should be the start of any discussion/debate/topic. But that’s my shared opinion :) Excellent points, every one. Very helpful and inspiring.

[@tycheesey]

Always keeping it real and spitting out audio alpha. I appreciate you and your channel so much.

[@NemoPropaganda]

thank's tyler, I appreciate OG subscribers such as yourself! you rock my man!

[@chrisselner5005]

Haha great video! I think audiophiles would be happier if they had more people to share it with. I got a friend who loves music who I have played some different systems of mine and he said the clichéd thing about hearing g new things...etc. I helped him buy a loxie dac amp because hifi stuff is super expensive in his country and he was worried what his wife would say. He loves it 100 percent. I'm trying to find him some speakers now. Regarding smile factor, hearing a 3d Soundstage never fails to impress, as well as punch and dynamics, floating treble....and lately, svs micro 3000 for deeper bass and Soundstage, thanks nemo!

[@NemoPropaganda]

that's awesome! I'm happy for your fried :D

[@mesonto]

And this is the reason I keep coming back and listening to your channel. Also I was really happy you went over the high-pass filter of the REL subs and the marketing mystique around that connection vs. the low pass. This argument has gotten way out of hand... and this coming from someone that actually replaced his S812's with G22's for music. And and your last point was your best, and most often forgotten one. This is a hobby it's meant to be enjoyable. Well done... I think this was the best video you've ever made. So low-key but important to understand information.

[@NemoPropaganda]

glad you're enjoying the show!

[@ukspawn666]

i think youre confusing directionality with room interaction somewhat, maybe in order to simplify. When they say bass is omnidirectional they mean it radiates in all directions around the driver and doesnt 'beam' like a tweeter. this is factual and can be measured. "Bass" is omni, so whats behind the sub is important but whats behind a tweeter is less important... and a mid-bass driver is somewhere in between. this is what SBIR is and why absorbtion behind the speaker, above/below, left/right etc helps with SBIR. I also agree that it is directional in a room though as you say, if you have a sub on the left but not the right, my ears definitly feel the pressure difference between the left and right ear. then when i turn on my other sub its ballanced. Omnidirectional doesnt relate to room interaction is all im saying. but i think people do take that as the meaning so, good that you covered it. thanks for your videos, this is not a dig or argument.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

You're essentially debating yourself if you claim turning on the other sub balances the pressure in the other ear. That in essence would make bass directional and it's doubtful that your right ear is in a null and your left isn't. As I have stated I use a single 21" sub that cannot be localized. Yes, long wavelengths make room interactions severe but intelligent placement will solve them in most rooms.

[@ukspawn666]

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt I use dsp it's fairly balanced but no room is perfect you will get modes in one area that are not present even in a symmetrical room and that's the localisation that can be heard, a small room also contributes, if you sit close to the sub you hear where it is more than if its far away. It's omnidirectional but it still eminates from a point, what localisation you hear will depend a lot on setup, room/treatment etc, some say 100hz some 80, some lower... no one is the same and no room is the same

[@ukspawn666]

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt have you used 2 subs before, as if not you can't compare what it was like with 2 to 1 also.

[@NemoPropaganda]

Yes it's for simplicity sake, how it measures in an open field or if it's really the room modes and not the sub, etc... None of this matters to me, in the room it becomes directional. Kind of like how I don't care how my car performs in a race track, I drive on the road so that's what matters :).

[@jbarker2160]

I think the reason that some people say the high-level input is better because, supposedly, you get the same voicing as your main speakers because the same distortion is being fed to the sub.

[@NemoPropaganda]

I think it's mainly because it bypasses the suboutput which is normally filtered poorly on cheaper gear especially cheaper AVR.

[@bryansu]

when u using the rythim sub, how do u connect it to your kinki studio audio system which do not have dedicated sub-out?

[@krom447]

RECKHORN Mini DSP as alternative (1 pair in RCA, 3 pair out, each out have own Low pass and Hi pass filter).

[@NemoPropaganda]

I just use one of the 3 sets of pre-outs.

[@bryansu]

@@NemoPropaganda by the way, any chance of hearing your review on the denafrips athena preamp?

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@bryansu probably not, I'm very happy with my Kinki Studio Pre-Amp to the point I'm not really curious about anything else and I only review stuff I'm curious about.

[@Impackon]

I REALLY like your down to earth approach and thinking. I notice that I (nearly always) 😉 agree with you. For sure when it comes to 'enjoy your music'. So my compliments and continue the good work. BTW I just have bought a REL T/7x for stereo and home cinema.. Very happy with it. 😃 Regards from the Netherlands.

[@erics.4113]

Enjoy the REL mate I've got mine here and love em in white

[@NemoPropaganda]

Hi Jan, glad you're enjoying the content and super happy you like the sub, rock on!

[@Impackon]

@@NemoPropaganda I have an additional question, if I may. How would you rate / judge the addition of the 10" passive to the 8" active woofer, compared to a sub without such a passive? Does it lower the bass extensions? As it is specified "only" to go down to 30 Hz. My floorstanding Dynaudio speakers are also rated to reach 30 Hz -6 dB. What does /will the sub add? Appriciate your thoughts.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@Impackon Hey my man, sorry I don't understand the question, are you asking about the REL T7X and if it will be a good solution for your speakers? If so, I would ask REL, they are really good at helping people pick the right sized sub to match their speakers. Aside from REL I don't like passive radiator subs, most of them sound kind of sloppy, REL is the only company that I've heard that does it right and sounds great.

[@Impackon]

@@NemoPropaganda I appologize, re-reading my question it indeed is not very clear 😳 What I would like to understand better is what the passive driver brings / adds compared to a sub without one or a sub with one larger active driver.

[@thomasward00]

Recently bought a pair of Paradigm 200B bookshelves, very well built speakers and accurate.... Burned my ears up and would leave me with a headache in 15 minutes.... Returned them and bought some Wharfedale Denton 80 bookshelves, they are warm as can be and prob don't measure well, but I love the buttery warm sound.... I love detail but not piercing highs.

[@krom447]

All points are great! Question: What audio gear you use with your PC?

[@NemoPropaganda]

I don't have that kind of PC setup. My PC is a couch gaming setup, I can share pics in the discord if you're on there?

[@krom447]

@@NemoPropaganda Not there, but thanks for answer.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@krom447 no problem dude! It’s free if you want to join.

[@andreemilsen369]

Great stuff🤘 I am curious; How do one measure punchyness in a speaker/ sub? Where in the frequency is it really? (Hear so many different answers🤷🏼‍♂️)

[@NemoPropaganda]

Descriptors can be very personal but for me you're talking about 50-70hz.

[@keithbryancwong1837]

Just a thought, would room correction/ parametric eq in receivers be able to reduce differences in how speakers sound to an insignificant level? Of course within reason e.g. similar size tweeters and drivers. Normally when I hear comparisons between similar speakers, usually bass/mids/trebles are compared. E.g speaker A has more mids with a slight roll off at the top end vs speaker B. It should be possible to add in more mids and reduce highs to get it sounding really close to the other speaker. Such that one would need to listen closely in an A/B test to tell the difference. Just had this thought after recently doing calibration for my system. Maybe that is also why you often hear about yamaha or marantz or denon all having their own signature sound.

[@NemoPropaganda]

Hey Keith, ya know I'm not really sure as I'm not a super DSP guy but I'd imagine it's somewhat possible but you won't be able to get an Elac DBR62 to perform like a Buchardt S400.

[@keithbryancwong1837]

@@NemoPropaganda Thanks after listening to more speaker reviews I sort of get what you mean. Maybe one can get 2 speakers similar sounding. But it will be hard or almost impossible to make up for sound staging and imaging and layering. But it will be a fun little experiment though!!!

[@scottlowell493]

"Studios don't use cheap cables". As a qualifier, no, they don't use "iffy" cheap cables, they do not use Kimber silver or anything exotic. It's well shielded, well built and affordable. I know, I use some of it.

[@NemoPropaganda]

ehhhh check their mic cables, I've seen a few guys using mic cables that cost a good amount.

[@somenerdthx]

New subscriber love the content I'm awaiting a sonance sub repair. From 2008 but it's a legend of a subwoofer. 150 watts 28 Hz to 250 Hz

[@NemoPropaganda]

welcome aboard B!

[@ronmurazzi8342]

Thanks Nemo, Great points as always. Not a myth but would like your reaction to this scenario: An entertainment center without a pro PA sub located between the main bookshelves in a purpose built subwoofer enclosure below TV. A second home theatre type sub located mid wall on opposite side of room. AVR with individual sub outputs to drive subs. Would this make sense? Pa sub more for midbass (lighter driver?) And home theatre sub for deeper lows. Primary system use is for music.

[@ronmurazzi8342]

Sorry meant with pro sub.

[@NemoPropaganda]

Hey Ron, so yeah Pro subs are midbass monsters so they can play louder but you already know that and are using it for midbass so I see nothing wrong with experimenting with it. Getting the phase right is the most important part so make sure you're patient with that part. I've met plenty of people that use a pro sub in their system because they love that "kick you in the chest" type of bass. It's not something I would walk around recommending to people left and right since they don't extend very low and can be very large but you have another sub to handle your extensions so yeah, I say go for it!

[@jakegibson6096]

You’ve became my fav reviewer. Hope you keep the videos coming

[@NemoPropaganda]

thank's Jake I appreciate that, I'm not stopping anytime soon, I have a ton of shit I need to review right now, I'm just staring at this pile of gear lol

[@jakegibson6096]

@@NemoPropaganda one of the few that don’t just get all up in a company or products ass for some money. I’ve made bad buys listening to a couple reviewers. Live and learn😂

[@jakegibson6096]

@@NemoPropaganda Hope you got some amps in that pile. Been using the emotiva integrated. While great, wouldn’t mind to see what a good higher priced amplifier would do for my dbr62.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@jakegibson6096 I actually re-bought the DBR-62 so I'll make sure to test them out on any amps I review, I probably won't mention it in the video but feel free to ask in the comments or in the discord if you're on there. As far as amps I actually have the new Emotiva TA1 but that would be a lateral move so perhaps you'd be more interested in the Buchardt i150, I have that here and hope to have a video out in about 2-3 weeks tops. So far it's a big winner in my book but it's considerably more expensive at $2000-$2500.

[@jakegibson6096]

@@NemoPropaganda that’s about the price range I figured I’d have to update to see any gain. I hear good things about Buchardt in general. Look forward to the review on’em

[@LuisJacob366]

About the need of a good subwoofer as it needs to be to “resist” or work even better than the safe side! Question is.. There’s a sub that is underrated for you? I work with powered and need to be a portable subwoofer no more than 15kg and use it with live music instruments at medium to low volume level So I have Svs micro B&w asw610 and 608 Paradigm ultracube Rel t5 Sumiko s.5 James emb1000 Svs sb1000pro But I want to test more. Do you have a recommendation that I’m missing? Can you make a video about sound cancellation using two different subs?? Or it’s a myth? That can be in this video?

[@NemoPropaganda]

15kg makes it tough, you've got most of them, RSL Speedwoofer is great but it's 40lbs.

[@WWeiss-nv5vz]

Great video! The one point I have to differ, "The artist intention is to make money." As a musician myself playing for over 50 years, musicians start playing for the love of making an artistic and if possible original statement. I don't know if you are a musician or not? Of course professional musicians are motivated to make money like everybody else.

[@NemoPropaganda]

it was more generalization and more so they're not trying to manage our enjoyment.

[@ivanmelkner7704]

Hello, all low freq are directional? Thank you

[@NemoPropaganda]

I'm not sure, I'm only concerned with frequencies that are in music.

[@cameronkrause4712]

Well done!

[@Woofy-tm8si]

Your assertion that we may not know all relevant ways to measure performance is spot on. Dogmatic tech types who claim that everything that measures the same, sounds the same are the equivalent of religious fanatics who claim a bronze age fairytale rigidly applies to 21st century daily life. When it comes to cables, the smaller the signal, the more critical design and shielding matter including quality of connections and metallurgy used. Shielding is far more critical in urban environments with high density housing with high airborne RF saturation or racks with tons of tangled signal, power and speaker cables. Power conditioning is also critical in residential buildings with dozens of refrigerators, washing machines, dryers and wall warts sharing the same electrical service. Older homes are often a problem due to poor or non-existent electrical grounding. And any home with high ground impedance at the panel needs additional grounding rods installed for safety. And lower electrical system ground impedance also leads to MUCH quieter gear with gobsmacking results. Last summer, I found and replaced a rusted piece of rebar used to ground my home's electrical system (insanely dangerous) with four, eight-foot long, copper coated aluminum grounding rods in a line stretching out away from my house spaced 8 to 12 feet apart, joined by a buried, 10 gauge copper cable. What I also got as a side-benefit was a massive improvement in musical detail and significantly better soundstaging. Check out Michael Fremer's home electrical upgrade vid on youtube. He goes bonkers on his electrical upgrade. However, just upgrading your home's electrical system's grounding scheme makes a heckuva improvement and if you can do most of it yourself, the cost can be under $500. My son in-law is an electrician. He said that most home contracters go notoriously cheap on grounding because it's invisible and most homebuyers don't know enough to ever check.

[@NemoPropaganda]

Hey Woofy! Glad you enjoyed the vid and glad you. The grounding thing is something I could learn more about, I only have a condo right now so I don't have any control over that :).

[@Pentenfi]

Just some thoughts on the about subwoofers: The specs that most brands offer are nowhere close to what you'd need to actually judge a subwoofers performance. But you can take a sub into a sophisticated enough lab and measure its spl capabilities, distortion, group delay, transient response...This will be a pretty accurate picture of how it will perform. BUT it will not tell the customer if he/she will enjoy the sound. A very accurate sub with low distortion might actually sound like it had "less bass" than a less accuarte one. Hence, if one does not have a ton of experience, there is no substitute for first hand experience. Also about the big vs small driver debate: This only makes sense if one is talking about the same displacement capabilities, e.g. comparing 2 8" to a 12" or 2 10" to a 15" (roughly)

[@Impackon]

How does an 8 inch with passive 10 inch, like from a REL T/7x, relate to that?

[@Pentenfi]

@@Impackon An 8" with passive 10" passive is comparable to an 8" in a ported enclosure, but a bit lower in SPL capabilities. Ported enclosures have a slight edge since the port causes less mechanical loss than a PR. And a PR/ported design has a lot more output than a sealed system around the tuning frequency (around 6db, even more is possible). The Rel has a - 6db point of 30Hz, so I guess the tuning frequency is around 32 - 35 Hz (just guessing, haven't tested). The Rel will have as much output around 30 - 40Hz as two of the same 8" subs in a sealed enclosure getting double the power. That's why Nemo sometimes mentions that it makes no sense to compare seaped vs ported subs of the same size, because ported (and PR designs) have so much more SPL capability around the tuning frequency. This is just SPL output considerations and has nothing to do with sound quality though

[@Impackon]

@@Pentenfi thank you very much for your extensive reaction. So would suggest that the Rel should be able to complete with the output of a closed 10" sub. Which of course also depends on the amplifier (I know.... 😏)

[@Pentenfi]

@@Impackon Yes, I think you are right. A sealed 10" of the same quality as the 8" driver in the Rel T/7X should perform similar. In the end, it all comes down to how much air can be moved, i.e. the total displacement.

[@Impackon]

@@Pentenfi Thx 👍

[@m4nc1n1]

I have two SVS PB1000 Pros, and they are insanely loud at about 1/3 volume. Especially for $599 ea when I bought them. I had concerns about the 325w RMS on a 12" ported, but as you said, it is definitely a nonissue.

[@NemoPropaganda]

oh yeah bro, ported subs are way more efficient. A ported sub can have half the wattage of its sealed counterpart and still be capable of more output. PB1000 Pro with 325w has more output than the SB2000 pro that has 550w for example

[@mahinnahian3668]

Good discussion. I just want your opinion in two issue, that i am searching the answer. 1. I am just a normal listener. I used to have a creative s750 with my desktop. Then i had to sell that as i moved abroad. After returning back to my hometown, i bought edifer s2000mkiii spekaer. If you have ever seen the creative s750, the satellites were quite small in size but had 70 watts. But, if you see the edifer s2000mkiii, the two speaker together will be bigger than s750 sub or like 6 s750 satellite will take the space of one edifer speaker. But the edifer s2000mkiii speaker only have 65 watts. So, how come the 1/6 size s750 had more watts than the beefy edifer speaker? 2. The edifer s2000mkiii do not have any base output. And the speakers only have volume control upto 50 level. The company said the speakers have 3 dacs. But sometimes i feel the quality is not upto the mark, or lacks some bass in certain songs. I mostly listen through Bluetooth from mobile. So, how can i improve the quality and sound a bit more? Should i go for a external dac, or amplifier or av receiver?

[@NemoPropaganda]

1. I don't know the spec of each speaker in truth but published spec on edifier is 120w which is more than the creative. 2. I'm not sure, you have a powered speaker used via BT so you can't use an AVR, amp, or external DAC. Also this speaker does not appear to have any subwoofer output so it seems you do not have any upgrade paths.

[@mahinnahian3668]

@@NemoPropaganda thanks

[@dednside5229]

Car audio guys know alot more about all these topics that installed multiple systems. Everyone has opinions based on what they've heard or read. You have to actually re do it over and over for years and keep reading and mostly understanding what environment would match well with what equipment. What is your end goal? Everything is a balancing act and without brick and mortars and tuning experience its a guessing game, especially at home. Car audio is the harshest most difficult environment so tuning is critical when there is no placement options.

[@NemoPropaganda]

indeed, I've had a subwoofer in every car I've ever owned since I was a young lad. Luckily these days most newer cars have good enough door speakers if you keep the bass at 0 and adding a sub fills in the rest. Then again if you like it louder most stock speakers still can't play all too loud but I'm not that guy so a quality driver in a custom box with a decent amp is usually all I need.

[@psychoticapex]

Is there a situation when adding something like SoundPath Isolation from SVS actually makes the sound worse?

[@NemoPropaganda]

Hey psycho, so the soundpath feet fall into the category of "tweaks" and in that category you can experience an improvement which is what most people talk about however sometimes it's more of a change that is not actually an improvement, just a case of different but not better. And other times the tweak may go in the opposite direction and change the sound in a way that is not preferred by the listener so yes I believe any tweak has the potential to be disliked by the listener.

[@JohnSmith-of4vh]

I upgraded my system by buying an older version of a class A preamplifier I already used in my system. This model featured a very large Elna audiophile capacitor, a top quality volume pot & was fully earthed. The difference in sound quality was enormous with more bass, detail & soundstaging & a far quieter phono stage. It cost me £70 less than the more recent model I bought 20 years ago! The facts are that manufacturers are trying to reduce their costs by using the cheapest board components that 'work'. Don't be fooled by the glossy exterior & those rave reviews.

[@NemoPropaganda]

that's absolutely true with some gear but not all. Some companies are stepping things up but others certainly recycle & downgrade. Example the new dynaudio emit is the same price as the old one but the new one is vinyl finished while the old one was painted. That's a price increase by way of lesser quality.

[@thehandman5772]

On the subject of absolutes, rel are not the only manufacturers the have dedicated, not legacy hi level input, over here in the UK we have bk electronics and mj acoustics, check them out

[@NemoPropaganda]

I tried to buy one of their subs, 4 emails and no response so I don't really know anything about them but I tried. I just assumed they were a tiny country and didn't want to ship across the pond.

[@gregarioussolitudinist5695]

A string is not expensive. It vibrates at a determined frequency based on tautness. That is pristine sound. If you think you need a $100,000 stereo system to reproduce that frequency...you might have a couple screws loose.

[@NemoPropaganda]

I’m not sure what part of the video you’re responding to.

[@Slickman2006]

Nemo, have you given any more thought about reviewing the 1508 Predator? I love my Predators so much because they are quick and agile but with the 15" driver they sound deeper than any 12" I've had. Really an amazing subwoofer. Also they are $1399 right now on Amazon, not as good a deal as the 1k deal but still a good deal.

[@NemoPropaganda]

I will review it at some point for sure, just hard to say when, I'm jam packed right now.

[@Slickman2006]

@@NemoPropaganda Having listened to many subs in this room, I noticed the REL have a very unique signature to them. The other subs I listened to were either in your face loud and not very tight, or tight but the bass doesn't sound present it sounds far away. The REL's have an in your face presentation but it's tight at the same time.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@Slickman2006 that sounds appealing, REL has always been a clean, composed, yet powerful sound to my ears and I love that!

[@Slickman2006]

@@NemoPropaganda Exactly, they integrate really well with the speakers but at the same time they have a powerful sound to them. I love the sound of RELs it is my personal favorite sound of the subs I've heard. The other thing I love about them is there is no damping, rumble, Q, or extension settings to fiddle with. Just hook it up and it immediately sounds good. Not saying it's bad to have those settings on a sub, but I definitely enjoy the ease of use of the RELs.

[@bobb.9917]

Hey Nemo…Sean dropped some good vibes on you on an Eacoutics podcast today! Nice. If you care…I am selling my Kinki Studio Mono Blocs, and my Denafrips Athena Preamp.I finally reconnected my 45-year-old Bob Carver C-500 with the Schiit Freya+ and "for me", it REALLY puts the Kinkis to shame! No contest.😎 It’s all about what makes us smile, right!!! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼😁

[@NemoPropaganda]

awe man that's a bummer, I know you had high hopes for the mono's, I wish I could teleport over so I could hear your system both ways lol. I'm curious if it's the preamp throwing things off or if it's just not suited to your taste, either way you probably have a new appreciation for your existing gear which is great! What's the eacoustics podcast? I don't think I've seen that

[@bobb.9917]

@@NemoPropaganda I wish we could sit and listen.Remember I ran the B7s with the Freya+ first. They sounded worse with the Athena “ to me”. Tight bass forward in soundstage, vocals recessed and thin, not balanced against the bass..lacking midrange. The whole sound sounded unbalanced between lows and highs…no meat in the middle, no depth to the sound. My Carver was in storage for 35 years, I have only been listening to it recently again, so..it’s not like I am attached to the sound….. It’s all fun and learning though. Audiogon, here I come. Check Sean out…it’s long…but FANTASTIC!!! www.ecoustics.com/podcasts/zero-fidelity/

[@erics.4113]

I like the point that two speakers can measure almost identically but sound drastically different. So what is the difference and what is the scientific formula for tonality (if that's the word we agree to describe the differences). Does such a quantified formula exist? Two pianos will be tuned to the same octaves and frequencies. Would anyone say there is no difference from a 2k and 100k piano with regards to sound quality? I don't disregard measurements, but I also don't take them as the end all either. After all, can we quantify the two pianos completely in the above example, or do you just simply sit in front of them and nod your head at the vast difference in tonal quality?

[@NemoPropaganda]

$20k piano is snake oil lol jk jk

[@erics.4113]

@@NemoPropaganda hey don't you have a thousand pairs of speakers to audition? Get back to work! Hahaha

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@erics.4113 okay 😥

[@bobb.9917]

All good points. Remembering that this is supposed to be fun pursuit is the most important. Today I am dismantling my system and going back to old gear, which in my estimation sounds better to "me" than $6000 worth of "modern" gear I bought. I will need to confirm my perceptions once everything is reconfigured… (I am keeping some of my new "enhancements" that I believe complements/improves my original set-up…so my experience was not a total loss). I am a more experienced audiophile now! 😁…but thanks for reminding me to have fun, have an open mind and keep learning in the forefront as I make my changes….👍🏼

[@erics.4113]

I get a very serious face when I'm enjoying my hobby though. So .. 😜 It kinda looks like that but more drool 🤤

[@erics.4113]

What modern kit did you go with? I'm also dismantling and 'mantling' my gear together. Convinced I have figured out the strengths and weaknesses and convinced the other was/is better. I put that in rotation for some time, then crave 'something' it's lacking that the other possessed. Repeat cycle .. What I'm starting to be more convinced of is that it's ALL a compromise. What I like about one will be negated by something I don't like so much about it. And sometimes they are logically contradicting traits. I like my bright speakers but then I wish they were warmer and more rolled off. (ha!) I suppose it's just that I like different qualities at different times. And there is no perfect one

[@bobb.9917]

@@erics.4113 I am right now running my 45-year old Bob Carver C-500 Power Amp (with everything original including capacitors! Yes …I bought it new as a young man😃) with a Schiit Freya+ PreAmp w/NOS tubes thru some DynAudio Contour 20s. A pair of REL T-5X subs. My source is a Marantz SACD 30N for discs and streaming. I am bypassing the Burr/Brown DAC in the Marantz and using a Denafrips Pontus II. I am sitting here smiling with your face 🤤!!!! LOL! "For me" my Bob Carver puts those Kinki Studio EX-B7 Mono Blocs that I bought TO SHAME! It’s not even a contest! …,and the Denafrips Athena Pre-Amp I bought to fix them made it all sound WORSE! 😂😂😂😂 Thin…no upper base or midrange. There was no balance between the highs and lows The highs were thin and recessed. Female vocals thin. Male vocals less presence. The music lacked PRESENCE, body! It was unbalanced. What a expensive learning experience. Right now…I am thinking that Bob Carver really is a genius!!!! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼 I hope no perspective buyers on Audiogon read this! 😂😂😂 I have a Schiit Loki Max on order so that I can tweak myself to higher heaven….gotta keep it interesting!

[@erics.4113]

@@bobb.9917 Ok. Yah your setup made me salivate a little. Maybe some blood flow in the nether regions if I can be a little bold and crass haha. So you went with the kinki blocks but you mentioned Freya and denafrips pre. Did you not try the kinki pre? I've got their ex m1+ on my radar but not sure im into the sound without a listen. Dynaudio is another brand I really want to try. I did pick up a denafrips ares 2, the little brother to your pontus and I'm loving it. Also did a pair of rel t7x but for my small room I may have been better off with the pair of t5x .. I just needed that front-firing driver so it was all about aesthetic which usually makes for bad purchases. Not that this falls into that category, but it's close. A stereo pair in my small space is pushing it. I barely have them moving and the room is pressurized. I don't doubt your 40 year old amp is original capped. They obviously used quality stuff and it has lasted. I'm still wondering if your pre amp voltages were matching up well with the kinki. Thought I read somewhere that denafrips and Freya were not the typical 2/4volt pre for rca and XLR respectively. Could be wrong. Does this mean your kinki blocs will be showing up on the market somewhere?

[@bobb.9917]

@@erics.4113 Vinshine Audio in Singapore distributes Kinki and Denafrips. They also handle all customer service. I bought the Monoblocs first to hear what I was "missing" with the advance of tech. I drove them with my Schiit Frey+ Tube Preamp…and I had just spent all this money and I was less than thrilled, but I did not trust myself and my ears and went down the rabbit hole deeper. 🕳🐇I asked Alvin at Vinshine which preamp out of his Kinki/Denafrips quiver would give me the fullest, warmest sound with the monoblocs. He told me to buy the Athena. 😂😂😂😂 I would have bought one of the Kinki PreAmps, but went with his suggestion. Tarun (The British Audiophile) just reviewed the Denafrips Hades/Thallo combo and found them lacking in the EXACT same way I did the Athena/B7s combo. He restored my sanity. I mean $6000 worth of gear and it just wasn’t "for me". Maybe, like Nemo says…someone else would’ve been thrilled with it? Not sure.

[@jonsays3762]

Decent power and a $129 small EQ gets you enough variety to experience the music 90% between analytical and lush. Also, 9 gauge optical cable is the way to go. Increases “danceability”! Also also, and more seriously, you are correct about bass directionality as you increase its power. Two units, TO ME, disappear in terms of directionality when place correctly and turn to butter in my ears. Like I said, it just comes down to “danceability”. Also also also, I’m going to quit now, and my hat tip for danceability spec. Here is yer upthumb.

[@ericthemauve]

"9 gauge optical cable is the way to go. Increases danceability” Utter nonsense Jon, but if it floats your boat, dance away.

[@jonsays3762]

@@ericthemauve Aye. It all comes down to the optical cable girth, and danceability. Chicks dig it.

[@mattkalis1567]

Jon, I really want to use 9 gauge optical, but I can't find any ferrites that will fit them. Do you have any leads on large optical ferrites to suppress noise/interference?

[@NemoPropaganda]

for half a second I was like damn they make 9ga optical? lmao.

[@jonsays3762]

@@NemoPropaganda I owe @baldmetalnerd a hat tip for the danceability metric.

[@bshah4831]

I don't agree that artists just want to make money. Pink Floyd and other groups male a lot of effort to produce something really interesting and artistic.

[@NemoPropaganda]

I'm sure there are other aspects, but I think we can agree their intention is not to micro manage how we enjoy their content and most would be happy just that we're enjoying it on any system.

[@bshah4831]

@@NemoPropaganda yes i agree. Actually it is probably the recording engineer that has a lot of influence on what he or she thinks we should be hearing.

[@buckethead84]

You're deep in the hobby, bro. But, yes I agree with everything you've said.

[@NemoPropaganda]

balls deep fam.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Regarding your logic that the sound should be the one that puts a smile on your face rather than accurate, imagine if you used that logic for televisions? Bass below a certain frequency is non directional. If you can localize a sub, it's usually due to doubling distortions and phase integration. I use a single 21" in my 2 channel system that disappears and all experienced visitors can't tell that it's even on. I agree we don't know enough about what or how to measure.

[@NemoPropaganda]

I do use that logic for televisions, what's wrong with that? I have an X950G and an RU8000, while the x950g is technically better I generally prefer the RU8000 for most content.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

@@NemoPropaganda "Technically better" is vague and almost meaningless. My point is we need standards and if we had as varying degrees of TV design as we have say speakers, it would be chaos with the buying public. While more expensive TVs can have better performance than cheaper ones, they're basically all the same and striving for the same desired goals regarding brightness, black levels, contrast levels etc. and using reality as a performance comparison. In audio, the recent trend is to tell people that no matter how bad the sound or gear is, " if you're happy, that's all that matters." Now I concede accuracy is problematic in audio reproduction but it's still the standard to strive for and if one claims not to like accuracy, then they didn't like the recorded performance to begin with.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt yeah see I just disagree with that, example: my friends girlfriend is a total fucking bitch, everyone hates her but guess what, he loves her, she makes him happy, and for that I support him and keep my mouth shut. It is not a mans job to point out something wrong if the person is happy with what they have unless that thing is harming them and even then sometimes it's still best to keep your mouth shut.

[@RGMDG]

1. If the artist got it sounding the way they wanted at mix down, YOU don't have that system, so you will NEVER hear it as they intended.

[@NemoPropaganda]

great point!

[@xadrian23]

What is that combination under the tv ?

[@NemoPropaganda]

In this video at the top is the Pontus2 DAC then Kinki EXP7 preamp followed by Kinki EXB7 mono blocks and bluesound node2i at the very bottom that you cannot see.

[@xadrian23]

@@NemoPropaganda Thank you very much for the fast reply.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@xadrian23 I am fast like a ninja.

[@xadrian23]

@@NemoPropaganda Any DAC with eARC that you can recommend ?

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@xadrian23 I'm not sure bro, I use a cheap inline DAC for my TV (fiio Taishan) so I can get whatever DAC I want for music :D

[@IrenESorius]

Were using Mogami / Neutric cables for,, well everything in the studio. Mic-Cables, Jack-Cables, AES/EBU 110Ohm etc etc. Their very scilent (EMR resistant) and extremely durable. Since 1984 Iw never seen a active monitor, mixing console, headphone amp, etc etc, hooked up to nothing else than a generic 240/120V cable. Cheers, thanks and have a exellent weekend Nemo,, 🍻😎🤘‍‍

[@NemoPropaganda]

true, studios do usually use the generic power cord :)

[@ridirefain6606]

Love the points you made. Well done. Another two myths that I find the hobby beats to death. One, Vinyl sounds better than digital. (Different yes, but I would not say one is actually better than the other. I enjoy both.) Two, Tube amps sound better than Solid State. (Again the same, there are differences. However I also found a well designed SS piece will have a lot of same sonic characteristics one would associate with a Tube based component and vice versa.)

[@NemoPropaganda]

yeah I've heard those too but I don't have much experience with Vinyl or Tubes but I have heard them sound great but they were mega buck.

[@Audiomainia2310]

Great points bro. I personally believe in matching subs - you agree?

[@NemoPropaganda]

Mostly agree yes, nobody should buy mismatching subs on purpose unless they are very experienced and aiming for a specific result which is common in HT like 2x 18" up front and 2x 12" in the rear but those guys usually have a lot of auto-calibration gear to make it all work and they want.

[@Audiomainia2310]

@@NemoPropaganda Thanks B!

[@brankocernik8384]

Well said Nemo !! I believe people just need to enjoy the music and not become so anal about this that and everything .

[@jctai100]

Thanks Nemo, insightful comments regarding cables, specs and sub designs. There are identical twins out there raised in the same household that have different tastes and views, nuff said.

[@NemoPropaganda]

thank you for commenting if anything to remind me of the meme in your pic, I lol every time.

[@seanb3303]

Great point it’s unfortunate that some companies are making their amps sound worse by adding like 50dB of negative feedback to the circuit to increase signal/noise and grind down THD to like .00003 levels. Feedback is not a free lunch and these amp designs sound sterile and lifeless. Example - the Topping PA5 amp was mailed directly from the Topping engineer/designer to Amir at ASR before it was available to the public. To game the S/N test he designed the amp to have very low gain…now users are complaining about not having enough volume with their sources.

[@NemoPropaganda]

yeah exactly that sort of thing.

[@artfartzy]

No system is better than the weakest link :)

[@john26262]

Paul from PS audio disagrees with you on the issue of high level inputs on subwoofers. He recommends them in all cases. I'm not sure whom to believe.

[@NemoPropaganda]

Paul's opinion was most likely formed many years ago in an era when most subwoofer outputs were poorly filtered and adversely affected performance. In those situations hi level will indeed give a better sound so in a way he is not wrong but most modern gear has very good subout & preout sections so it's not really a concern unless you're using very cheap gear. The cool thing is everyone can test for themselves.

[@MT-eb2dx]

Hi Res Audio is better. That's a great one as well. An industry that converts 44.1, 16bit to 24bit just to make it hi Res, without using any of those added 8 bit that also gets neatly losslessly compressed by flac. To be fair, if you produce music or are a DJ and slow down Alot for remixing more khz sounds better.

[@NemoPropaganda]

oh man they do that? I didn't even know about that one.

[@MT-eb2dx]

@@NemoPropaganda it's speculation, but I really don't know why else you need 24bit, you know how compressed most music is. It would probably fit in less than 16bit, no?

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@MT-eb2dx tbh I don't really no too much about file formats and bit rates, I just use the most expensive version of tidal and turn off MQA and it sound great, might mess around with qobuz though because the carplay app for Tidal seriously sucks donkey balls.

[@MT-eb2dx]

@@NemoPropaganda to explain it really simple, kHz is how fast the signal changes and the higher the Bit Value is, the more dynamic range the music can have. 16 bit is pretty much, as we all know from CD quality... i got qobuz a week ago, and the advantage of a Flac based streaming service is the quality. Tidal, i cancled, because you cannot escape MQA, if the music has the master, the flac gets generated from that master, giving you a compromised version as goldensound explained. I dont think you can hear the problems with MQA, but i really dont want to support it either.

[@paullindemann9924]

And I believe that Ripple, poured out of a paper bag is the best alcohol drink in the world...but my belief does not make it true.

[@NemoPropaganda]

This is a very cryptic comment.

[@paullindemann9924]

@@NemoPropaganda Really! You find my comment vague or obscure? OK, I will elaborate. First off kudos to you for your You Tube posting...lots of time, energy, courage etc. My comment (or analogy) was pointing out the subjectivity of your You Tube video. Succinctly stated, if one cannot hear the nuance (and many times it is not so nuanced) in audiophile grade gear, then they should not spend the money trying to upgrade that piece of gear. And if the audiophile critic cannot hear the differences then, perhaps they should state that their opinion is geared more towards Lo - Fi or Mid - Fi - not a slam, just trying to keep it real.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@paullindemann9924 my personal system hovers around $20k so that’s not really low fi but let me elaborate. I don’t understand what part of my video you’re reacting to. You’re stating your stance and that’s cool I just don’t understand where its coming from.

[@paullindemann9924]

@@NemoPropaganda It is possible to have an audiophile system, and not be an audiophile or to have a lo fi system, and be an astute audiophile (just not the wallet of one). My reaction is just an overall feel, here are a couple examples. The reference of "the right sound is the sound that puts a smile on your face"...clearly a statement for the masses, which inherently is lo to mid fi. The example of the $600 speakers and $1,000 amplifier, again, a for the masses, mid fi (at best) statement - all fine. Nothing wrong with tailoring your channel for mid fi - but lets properly target our audience (I'm such a hard ass...sorry.) Another example is stating that "a speaker is kind of sibling" - I'm sure you intended to say sibilance - the excessive hissing sounds and occasional occurrence of S and Z. A simple oversight...

[@NemoPropaganda]

​@@paullindemann9924 I'm gonna keep it 100 with you man, I really don't care what you think and this conversation is pure dogshit so lets just wrap this shit up so you can get back to being a big cool rich guy and I'll get back to not giving a shit.

[@henrikhengerics6782]

I am not here picking fights, but challenging ideas. :-) - 0:24 "I think their intention is just to make money": saying this about artists is simple incorrect. Yes, they might be living of the music they sell, but the pure intention (as you did not say among others only that "the intention") of musicians is not that. Please be aware of the wording. - 3:15 "The bass is less directional": or in other words it is not 100% omni-directional. Despite of the fact that yes it is 100 % true what you say, but providing the explanation for it is more then confusing: for the end result for the consumer/user why and how to set the sub in a room. The example given is just staggeringly ignorant of the other factors that determine the bass response at the given place. If I place the sub at one corner and it sounds one way and then saying that when I put the sub in the opposing corner (or somewhere, anywhere else), it sounds different and that is the proof for none directional behavior of the bass, is simply not helping to anyone. Example for disagreement: I can place my sub anywhere at the crossover 40Hz, I cannot determine the placing of the sub by the sound. I can here different room modes/response at the listening position, but not the subwoofer placement. The lower the frequency the higher the omni-directional behavior. That is why I agree with your initial sentence. - 8:38 "High level connection is a legacy connection except REL" : That is also incorrect or misleading. BK Electronics also specialized their high level input for the superior and preferred method of input. Yes, it is about what the company put their development into for the preferred input and vast majority currently took the route of low level input. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is just important to say that a companies product is developed for best performance to use one or the other input. Thanks for reading till the end. ;-)

[@NemoPropaganda]

I'm sure the artist have other intentions but I'm sure we can agree that it's not to micro manage how we enjoy their content, that was the main point. As far as subs being non directional I do not wish to delve into a technical dissertation so I keep things simple, I don't care how bass measures in an open field because in a real room bass is directional be it the sub causing it or the room is irrelevant, the sound is directional in a real room. I will never be the guy that breaks down everything to it's tiniest components, videos like that will be too long and nobody will watch them though some people are very good with that style like Hans Beekhuyzen and I really respect him for that. As far as BK they are a small niche company that will not respond to my emails even when I'm trying to buy their sub so I'm sorry I am not familiar with them but I sent them 3-4 emails trying to buy their subwoofer and I get no response.

[@henrikhengerics6782]

@@NemoPropaganda Sure, every format has its limitations. So not getting into details for one or the other reason is surely reasonable and expected. Therefore the "few" words/sentences said because of that, as to my opinion, should be a bit more carefully chosen. I do like the format you do and I do think that your experiences translated to the youtube audience is beneficial to us consumers/fans. - Musicians want to make a specific impression. They do not care about the details as how exactly through mastering that is achieved. So here i also agree, but that initial sentence. - You are much much more knowledgeable about the subs. So I take your word for it - You have already somewhere stated about you and BK. So I was aware of that. I just thought that they would not send a unit for a review, but you also already tried to buy one and they did not respond is new to me and makes me curious. Thanks for the response and have a pleasant weekend.

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@henrikhengerics6782 yeah it was weird, I thought for sure offering to buy one would make it beyond fair. It is possible that they are happy with their business and perhaps don’t need or want any reviews. Some companies like to stay quiet.

[@cremersalex]

Very harsh to think every artist and musician does it for the money, as if art and passion don't exist in your world. The very vast majority of artists is poor. There are easier ways to chase money.

[@NemoPropaganda]

Sure but the point is there intention is not to micro manage our listening experience and I do think most of them want to be rich and famous.

[@cremersalex]

@@NemoPropaganda Of course, they do not have control over the listener because it's a different situation everywhere. That's why, "what the artist intended", is that the music should sound good everywhere: 0n the radio, in the car, on an average hifi system, on TV speakers, in the disco, etc. Bruce Swedien claims that for mixing Michael Jackson's records, 80% of the work was completed on little Auratone 5Cs speakers. Those are what most people would call crappy speakers, not intended to enjoy music.

[@noyavargel3622]

very helpful video thank you, also brother im sorry to be bothering you but i could really use your advice xD i mean i could open avs forum thread but i actually really trust your opinion in these stuff, there are actually 2 things i really need your advice on... i had some old M-audio mtrack plus thingy which i understand is some sort of old "dac"? and i tried it ( its only stero) and it sounded so much better than without made me want to go for a "dac" i dont have a fancy system pretty much dennon x3700h and SVS ultra and SB 2000 pro.. so im not looking for some top tier high end dac and i actually rather have something thats decent and on good budget ( especially since my country has import issues and like 100% tax on these things) so i wonder if you could give me fairly budget friendly dacs that you think are decent enough and do the job like they dont ahve to be super cheap 100 usd dac but like i prefer ones that are under the 500 usd because thats instantly 1-1.2k usd here.. i appreciate ones that are small size because my desk atm kinda tight . and if you can give me more than 1 option because as mentioned import here is really awful and not every dac/brand i can actually find here or even ship here. thanks alot ! (wanna make sure i explain that i dont use headphones or anything and connect receiver to PC , right now M-audio thingy connected to pc on usb and the reciever to M-audio through coax ) thanks again and i hope you can help me and sorry for the bother and bugging second thing is.. 2 : as mentioned i own denon x3700h as receiver and my SVS ultra center doesnt sound as good as people claim it i wrote how it sound and alot of people tell me that denon x3700h doesnt have enough power for SVS ultra center tho it says "9x180w AVC-x3700h" in your option do you think it really is that the receiver lack power? or svs ulta is just overated ? if it does what kind of amp could / should i get for it to be enough if i want to just amp the center even... and is there maybe a dac that comes with amp for x channels?

[@NemoPropaganda]

Hey what's up bro, so lucky for you my friend owns the Denon x3700h so I have some experience with that unit. It has plenty of power for a center channel and the SVS center should be plenty clear. Your issue could come down to settings or your rooms acoustics. As far as DAC's in the $500 range unfortunately I don't have any experience. I use my $129 Modi for TV use and then the $800 Ares2 for music. I have not tested anything in between but maybe join our free discord and see if anyone there has some experience?

[@noyavargel3622]

@@NemoPropaganda hey thanks so much for the helpful replay, im happy to know i dont need amp for the ultracenter and ill focus on fixing room. I didnt know you have discord channel yes id love to join. I guess if thereare options that are 700-800 usd and are not over priced here i can do that. Thank you and ill search for link for your discord

[@NemoPropaganda]

@@noyavargel3622 link is in the description of this video :)

[@johnmathenge5271]

There's so much misinformation in this video that, the only way I can contribute is by asking anyone who watches it to just do their research through credible scientific sources. Nemo, I respect you, but you should at least have supported your arguments with facts, not "I think." Peace Edit: However, there are also some truths, such as small subs are not faster or better than big subs.

[@nate_8403]

The idea that there's such a thing as" audio science " is the biggest misconception in audio. Unless your getting your "scientific "information from engineers that work for high end brands its all just an opinion.

[@johnmathenge5271]

@@nate_8403 Lol, there is no separate science for "engineers that work for high end brands." Biggest misconception based on who? You? Share the details

[@ukspawn666]

@@nate_8403 you think Dr Floyd Toole and the like are not Scientists? they became audio scientists "Psychoacousticians", Engineers... etc BEFORE they were employed by Harmon , THX, etc Working for a brand doesnt increase your scientific credibility in fact it lessens it because of assumed bias etc. Peer-reviewed scientific papers ARE audio science, because they are SCIENCE. Science is incomplete and probably always will be, but thats whats good about it! always looking, testing, improving, learning, documenting, providing evidence.

[@nate_8403]

@@ukspawn666 I'm talking specifically about the design and measurement of audio components. The people who make high end audio equipment are going to have the best understanding of how to make a product that sounds good. And measuring why a component sounds good is something nobody has figured out.

[@nate_8403]

What scientific journal should we be getting our buying advice from?