Top 5 Overrated Smash Ultimate Top Tiers

[@WayToTheDoubler]

Every Fox is gangsta until the opponent is past nair-up smash percent

[@buraaqwasti63]

Shokkan Rosé 😂😂😂😂

[@dragodadragon]

Those are some bold words for someone in run up upsmash range

[@orbitalape]

My man spitting straight facts

[@sticks4382]

Well if you are in upsmash kill percent, just shield as much as you can and he can't do anything about it because he has no grab kill confirm at these percents

[@linuxafrica2584]

Lmao anyone who says fox is top tier is fkn lying lmao not in this game

[@nathanwakinshaw3804]

Pikachu isn't overrated. He's *busted* .

[@h-man1371]

No you cant just gimp me with a little ball of electricity Pika pika pikachu go pikachu

[@angelofranco9748]

Pikachu is easy mode

[@rangodash]

Big Dummie wat

[@LoadPast]

@@angelofranco9748 username checks out

[@AK_.]

GreenCannon I so read that with esam's voice

[@winstoninc3152]

underrated characters next?

[@cpmprocpmpro859]

Jigglypuff Rosalina and luma ice climbers

[@cpmprocpmpro859]

That who I think is underated

[@cpmprocpmpro859]

My reasoning Rosalina having luma is pretty broken cause of grab confirm s

[@cpmprocpmpro859]

Jigglypuff rest combos

[@cpmprocpmpro859]

And ice climbers kill combos

[@Support_Systemic]

No one talks about how Samsora carries Peach, he’s the only CONSISTENT top Peach player.

[@questrequested9171]

Umeki.. oh wait he uses Daisy, who is completely different right?

[@overkia5958]

questrequested he said consistent. He’s half right half wrong. Umeki BlazingPasta LingLing and Muteace are all top level, though just somewhat consistent.

[@Babaj997]

peach/daisy have extremely high potential though, and Samsora shows that they can be played to that potential consistently. I think that's enough to qualify her as a top character.

[@TQo1]

ye results dont say a single thing about the character. Since day 1 I despise Pikachu by heart tho he for almost a year didnt get any results. Now hes officially considered to be the best character in the game. (:

[@paradiso9601]

lingling is decent, but samsora has been playing peach for so long, he's the only good one.

[@silvesta5027]

Imagine Leo never picked up Joker. I wonder where people would rate him? (joker) Top 5? Top 10?

[@yex199]

He was still the best when he was a Ike Wolf player, he’d find another character probably and still be top 2

[@cmgvillager]

Silvesta You can ask that for a lot of toptiers in this game

[@karlcossaboon7072]

@@yex199I think he mains what people would rate joker not rate Leo Leo would still probably be number 1 since he would just dedicate the time to another character instead of joker

[@pterogen3415]

VolcanoSlice I think he was referring to Joker when he said “him”

[@daimajin266]

Probably not even top tier

[@Support_Systemic]

YUPPP!!! You nailed it with Peach, the fact that she beats most top tiers blinds people to the fact that she loses several characters below her. I also agree with the rest of the picks.

[@aestu4541]

people clowning samsora's matchup charts don't understand how hard some characters are to fight considering her horrid disadvantage state

[@Yvs8962]

Picking up Peach myself is actually what severely lowered my opinion of her, and made me believe she is the most overrated character in the game. Samsora is just amazing.

[@kribyy7784]

@@Yvs8962 LingLing, muteace, Umeki, "Overated"

[@Yvs8962]

Kirby What do they have to do with anything I said? If you’re bringing them up as an argument for why she isnt overrated, they were all top players with Peach in Smash 4 when she objectively wasnt top tier, so them still being top Peaches isnt much of an argument for why she isnt overrated as a character many people call Top 3. Even lesser known high level Ultimate Peaches like Razo and Meru were top players with her in Smash 4. If youre bringing them up because they should’ve been mentioned alongside Samsora. No. Theyre good, but Samsora is exceptionally good. He deserves to stand seperate from them, because his accomplishments do also.

[@kribyy7784]

@@Yvs8962You reliase they are better with Peach then he is, they know much more tech skill, he just has such a good neutral that hes better then them, they are equally good, Sam is just the better player, not the better peach.

[@dominiquewinston4005]

Ik Samsora's finger be cramping all the time from them combos

[@ejvstheworld.]

Dominique Winston his neck probably cramps from head bopping too

[@professorlapis8305]

@@ejvstheworld. 😂

[@j.rubach9910]

Moving around with JCFF is prob more cramping for him

[@Mepphy99]

He probably has Blood signal at any tournament

[@professorlapis8305]

@@Mepphy99 Fucked up fingers lmao

[@phillipobartodi6257]

If you think Fox is broken you've never played him

[@TQo1]

Phillipo Bartodi "Fox is only top tier if you don't play him"

[@UmbraStarWolf]

That goes for a lot of characters

[@phillipobartodi6257]

@@UmbraStarWolf that's definitely true

[@johnnyboi331]

depends. if you play him for one game yeah he sucks. if you main him for a year then he will become broken and win you lots of matches. People say he is broken all the time which means people suck at fighting against him.

[@loveliescrushing]

John Flanagan you don’t understand the character

[@slj1537]

Do a lot of people play fox? I am a solo fox main and most of my regions fox mains dropped him or heavily rely on a secondary. I feel like I see way more wolves, snakes, yoshis, and palus than fox. Fox is still top tier imo (maybe it’s my severe optimism), but is just hard to play consistently even though his kit is pretty easy to understand.

[@JckEd]

Yeah there's often one very good Fox here and there but the character isn't played a lot at all. I actually think I met more Isabelle mains than Fox mains in my tournaments lol (in France)

[@slj1537]

Geroolt of Roovia yea I wasn’t sure if it was me having region bias, but I live in Oregon(North west USA just above California) and I know a lot of fox mains from smash 4 who transitioned to different characters in ultimate. I understood that because the character did change quite a lot and feels a bit more linear, but I still love playing him. He is the perfect example of an easy to learn hard to master character.

[@TQo1]

SLJ Bro so frking true. I literally just met one Fox main so far in my region. All I play against is toxic stuff like Ness, Pac Man, G&W and Pikachu. You can only imagine how much I suffer as a solo Fox (:

[@evanmiddlekauff5439]

Yeah i'm in Bend Oregon and the last tourney I went to i can't remember seeing any Fox mains or not. I just love the character in all entries and could never drop him for anyone else honestly.

[@slj1537]

@@evanmiddlekauff5439 What a coincidence I am from Lake Oswego, Or XD. The oregon region has two successful solo fox mains in lunomin and gengur (although we don't believe his propaganda that fox is bad). However, I will say gengur is starting to use different characters for bad matchups like wolf.

[@silvesta5027]

I wish Fox’s recovery was better. Being light AND a bad recovery? :( Don’t get me wrong though he’s still great and I love using him

[@patricklewis9787]

As a Lucas main (a character with some of the best edge guarding in the game) Fox/Falco is one of the easiest people to edge guard, if he up specials, you can 2 frame him or even spike him if you're close enough, and you can just Pk fire his side special

[@evanmiddlekauff5439]

With Fox it's crucial to mix up recovery options, a lot. Just going low all the time will more often than not get you killed. Be sure to stall with shine, shorten or lengthen your aerial side b, get used to recovering at a high angle to the ledge, do a rising fair to have a hitbox protecting you as you get closer to the ledge (note: Rising fair will NOT grab ledge no matter how close you are, you must up b or side b to grab it after). If recovering low stall if you can if you think your opponent will setup for a 2 frame vs an edgegaurd and mix up going straight for the ledge vs using up at an angle towards the stage to lengthen the time and potentially make your opponents two frame setup fail.

[@JugularJohn]

Well technically... Fox’s Recovery is not bad. It does the job good. But it’s one of the most gimpable recoveries.

[@silvesta5027]

Jugular John Since it’s gimpable it doesn’t get the job done though, which makes it a poor recovery imo. Yeah it has good distance (and some mixups with shine, shortened side b) but a long startup + it’s easily 2 framed and spiked makes it bad :(

[@JugularJohn]

Silvesta Personally, if a recovery could be gimpable, it dosent automatically mean it’s bad. You could position yourself in such a way that it would be hard for your opponent to hit you with something. Fox does also have side b to snap onto ledge, But I respect your opinion.

[@prosoccer728]

I agree with Olimar, people just don’t know how to fight the character.

[@questrequested9171]

lol, im just surprised olimar is still considered a top tier to some tbh

[@TQo1]

questrequested reality factor. Pac Man and G&W might not have the best base stats (which is literally the only thing people look at) but in reality NOONE likes fighting those for a reason. Fighting Olimar is the same, incredibly toxic.

[@AverageHandle_]

I think Olimar is top at best and not top tier

[@prosoccer728]

questrequested Yeah void put him top 10, and I think it’s because the character he plays are bad against Olimar

[@HONEST-xj4rr]

I'm pretty sure no one except zero thinks olimar is top tier. :/

[@biggestmariofan1]

I agree with all of these except Joker. I feel that Joker's frame data and hitboxes combined with his speed are a fantastic combination. Not to mention Arsene. I do feel like MKLeo definitely carries the Joker meta a little bit, but I also feel like no one understands him as well as he does, since he's such a difficult character to play effectively. Joker being played in the right hands, though, feels unstoppable sometimes.

[@mechakucha_]

The size of Joker's hitboxes are a negative since they are small and require precision, which is what makes him a difficult character to master (legit took me months). He feels unstoppable because you are getting read like a book (just like with any other fast character). You beat him by outsmarting (mixups) and outspacing him (make him whiff). Arsene is probably the best character in the game, but has weaknesses. Here's a few: recovery is easier to 2 frame and more linear, bair is less safe on shield when up close compared to base Joker, and the increased depletion of his gauge means the Joker player is gonna be afraid of getting hit (throw out safe moves).

[@biggestmariofan1]

@@mechakucha_ Makes sense. But I still stand by my hitbox claim. Base bair is still big, it's just narrow and mostly hits horizontally whereas Arsene bair gets some verticality to it, but it's still a really good hitbox due to the disjoint. There are also still so many instances where you get forced into a vortex against Joker where he'll frame trap you with bair and cover your escape option with a dash attack, and then proceed to edgeguard you (that's one example of many). I agree, a lot of his vortexes are based on reads but Joker is definitely very good at forcing it by scaring the opponent with Joker's more deadly options and then reading their movement either with eiha, grapple, etc.

[@mechakucha_]

​@@biggestmariofan1 The frame traps are 1 thing (besides dragdown) that he has in common with Sheik (watch Void) and Greninja. Other characters that are quick enough can frame trap pretty well too (Fox for example). Sheik actually may have the better ones since she has more kill confirms, combo strings, frame data, and overall speed. I agree that bair is decently sized (but not that big), as is nair and dair. However, bair has a transient hitbox making him susceptible to getting whiff punished if you space around it. Nair and dair have a pretty slow start-up. Eiha can be nullified if you throw a hitbox at it. Grappling hook has as much lag as a smash attack, if not more, and can be punished easily.Joker rarely throws it out in neutral. Also, you can usually minimize any follow-up Joker can do by DI away. The vortex is part of his character design and let's him rack up damage as fast as the other high-top tiers (his damage per hit is pretty low otherwise). There's no denying that Joker's advantage state is good, but his disadvantage isn't as good as many of the other top tiers (especially with gun nerf). In fact, there are two really good counterplays I've noticed: The first is to keep him away with more range such as with a sword, punishing his approaches and whiffs. The second is to rush him down, get him stuck in shield and pressure him for free (no viable out of shield option). Characters like Fox, Sheik, Pichu, and Captain Falcon do a pretty good job at this. What character do you play?

[@huglife3155]

I've seen a lot of good joker's but none are winning tournaments with the character

[@FYRDXGR]

I feel as if Rebels Guard needs to be nerfed. There should never be a move in a game that negates all Knockback when the game heavily revolves around knockback.

[@getbn6547]

Finally, someone gets that Peach and Joker (post patch) aren't the best. It's a case where the players are carrying the character. Peach's damage output is easily matched by other characters (Squirtle, Olimar and Luigi to name a few) and just gets her day ruined by a well played swordsman (Mainly Shulk). They're both still amazing characters, just not the best (PT, I have a theory).

[@CarlosMartinez-pz3mb]

Joker is #2 so I agree not the best

[@dfsshusa6354]

Inkling is definitely overrated, it's so difficult for them to kill, especially against players who know how to deal with Splat Roller, up throw up air is just not very consistent, my opponents can usually live up to 160+ percent

[@Minister_of_Magic_1997]

DFS Shusa I actually 3 stocked an inkling last night in online bracket and lived to 202%. Yeah. Inkling can struggle to kill.

[@Matoi_Makouhou]

"It's hard to kill with Inkling" You already exposed your self in the first words nice job

[@bdc_ky]

Go offstage and fair/bair. Inkling has a great recovery and should be able to force people stage well

[@CaptainStringCheese]

i dont understand how struggling to kill can make inkling overrated when everything else they have is so broken

[@TQo1]

@@CaptainStringCheese Ikr? lol

[@jahon8448]

I hard agree on peach since she has the weirdest match up spread of the top tiers

[@mittens4385]

How so? Don’t tell me you believe that Peach goes even with DK rubbish

[@jahon8448]

@@mittens4385 I don't believe that stuff. Just that peach doesn't do well with zoners like most of the top tiers that can zone break well. Former suffering fox main speaking

[@mittens4385]

Ok that’s fair

[@timon4652]

@@mittens4385 dk peach is even though lmaoo if anything slightly in peach favor

[@AHGavInDaUSA]

antshiji relax

[@willfranklyn2]

I agree as a peach main. Like she is soo good and dominate in some match ups but other matchups I just get overwhelmed. I am not a pro at all and still have a lot to learn about the game/peach but I feel the same about her.

[@SirWrexes]

"Top 5 overrated top 5 characters from the top 5."

[@viz_nido_77]

Sir Wrexes Number 5: Five

[@thatswhatisaidbunnybread.5317]

Whut

[@camusreviews6877]

Fox is definitely overrated, he’s not top 15, I don’t get why people rate him over characters like Mario, Chrom, and Roy who can do a lot of what he does better.

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

And lucina

[@yatoanimetops]

I think the most overrated characters in ultimate are Fox and ROB. You said everything i think about Fox, so ima talk about ROB, he's mad good in neutral and advantage, but he really struggles in disadvantage + he lacks of frame data (his attacks are all good do, but his aerials dont come out fast). Yeah, he has a 0 to death, his gyro is amazing, but you can also 1- use it against him 2- throw it to the air (his neutral isnt that much without it). A lot of top tier characters don't have disadvantage at all (Palu, ZSS, Pikachu) and really destroys him. I see people who put him top 5 and hell no. I think both Fox and ROB are around top 15 (low top tier)

[@TQo1]

Fox obviously and tho your opinion on ROB might me unpopular I still 100% agree. Have a crazy story on him but not neccessary rn Ig

[@mehgamer467]

Only nair and bair for rob are slow. He actually has really fast frame data. His dtilt is FASTER and SAFER than the shotos lol.

[@yatoanimetops]

@@mehgamer467 just said i was talking about his aerials hahahaha

[@AverageHandle_]

KamuiYato yeah ROB is robbed of most of his stocks against combo characters

[@milesandrews6711]

Dude palu has mad disadvantage her recovery is easy to 2 frame and she suffers against in your face rush down characters who are really quick

[@lsa5754]

Finally someone who also thinks that Joker isnt the best

[@davimanso4637]

A lot if people think the same way

[@AverageHandle_]

EisTaut_Leonard yeah it’s pika

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

@@AverageHandle_ Yes

[@jcgocrazy]

Cause hes not. Leo makes him seem broken when Leo is just broken

[@AverageHandle_]

Pretty Kool Crocodile #FixUltimateOnline idk why people say otherwise lmao he has great recovery, can camp, great combos and kill confirms only downside is that he doesn’t have much range but even that doesn’t mean he loses to swordies Edit: good oos options and edgeguarding too

[@slushiev132]

I think the logic you use here is flawed. On one hand you say “character representation doesn’t correlate with how good a character is” but then you go and say “let’s imagine mkleo didn’t exist who’d play joker” that’s a double standard and doesn’t really work.

[@milesandrews6711]

Also plenty of top tiers are quote and quote carried by one player even Pikachu is considered best in the game and only esam plays him and he dosent even get that good results imagine if he wasn't around to scream that this character is broken

[@ChimpRevolution]

@@milesandrews6711 pika busted

[@user-tu1ot8ol1u]

This is a video explaining which characters are overated. So saying that Leo carried Joker to the point where so many people think he is the best in the game is his explanation of why Joker is thought of as highly as he is today.

[@mandalorianhunter1]

I also love how he says Fox is overrated while he doesn't think Wolf is. At this point, Wolf is more of a counter pick then solo viable. Hell Larry hardly gets far with Wolf consistently. To much bias in this video.

[@CarlosMartinez-pz3mb]

@@mandalorianhunter1 nah wolf is very solo main viable

[@nighttrain5006]

"A lot of people use Fox: doesn't mean he's good" "Not a lot of people use Joker = means he's bad" Am I missing something??

[@primetimedurkheim2717]

He never said not a lot of people use Joker.

[@Grassowl34]

Joker=potentially carried by MKLeo Fox=Really popular and fun to watch, so gets a good rep

[@JckEd]

Yep you did miss something

[@randompixelater1010]

Good Point @NightTrain

[@leaffinite2001]

NightTrain yeah, you’re missing a brain if you think his point was that simplistic and obviously stupid. Straw man headass

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

Fox has always been considered a good character. Never really a broken one. Even in the melee days his poor offstage game haunts him. All these salty folks that are like "fox mains can press any button they want" dont realize that he actually doesnt really have a combo game. Hes a reactionary character, so his follow ups are DI dependent. So if he didnt have preset moves that come out in the first few frames he would be useless

[@kunntakentay]

This is why he's one of the worst wifi characters

[@namenamename390]

You know when people say that player x is carried by charakter y? I feel like for Joker, it's the other way around. Leo is just such an amazing player that people rate joker higher just because of his skill. I also don't doubt joker is a very, _very_ strong charakter, but I don't share the opinion that he's the best in thr game.

[@winterlogical]

for sure, I agree with this - I think MKLeo's playstyle and his incredible mental game / playing on opponent's fear just brings out Joker's best attributes and makes him look more devastating than he would be in the hands of an average player or someone with a different playstyle.

[@Nolava0why7Because0yes]

I never thought Joker was the best and now I don't even think he's top 5, but he's still really good.

[@milesandrews6711]

@@impunkos his Carried by esam though and he dosent have great results in comparison to every other top tier

[@skee1815]

arsene back air is one of the most bullshit moves I have seen

[@adamquenano8563]

Easily Snake and Fox. Their biggest flaws is you have to play perfect every second

[@viridian8325]

Snake is the probably best in the game lmao

[@adamquenano8563]

Viridian 1.Pikachu 2.Joker 3.Peach 4.Zss 5.Palutena 6.Wario 7.Snake 8.Shulk 9.Pokemon Trainer 10.Lucina

[@tymartin2519]

@@viridian8325 it's 2020 man that's a early 2019 opinion right there

[@viridian8325]

@@tymartin2519 early 2019 people thought snake was mid tier so your a dumb dumb

[@kribyy7784]

@@viridian8325 Are you dumb

[@h4rdtr]

A good fox player will break your shield or shield poke bair/dair if you just hold shield thus forcing you to pick an out of shield option. I've done it plenty of times to ppl who believe the "just shield lmao" memes. Two bairs and a down smash/forward smash on shield will break your shield. And just cuz you can't kill your opponent "safely" doesnt mean you cant kill them. Good fox players will read your defense/offense and punish accordingly. Nair upsmash is overrated af. Also, you could just get thrown offstage and ledge trapped, if you think shield is gonna save you, it is not. Fox is not nearly as linear as ppl make him out to be. He has a lot of kill options and has one of the best bait and punish kits in the game because of his speed, frame traps, and fast kill options. The character requires a lot of skill and game knowledge to play well because most top fox things are not "true" so you need to know your oppents options, read/react accordingly. Fox requires you to master his movement and autocancels. I disagree with larry when he says fox is easy to pick up because the character has a shit ton of things to learn to be played effectively and some inputs/combos are not easy to execute for mid-low level players. You genuinely have to outplay your opponents without relying on cheese like a lot of top tiers. I think peach and fox are the most honest top tiers in the game. If you lose to a peach or fox you just got outplayed.

[@RocketPower95]

I agree that fox definitely does take skills to play because he's by far one of the toughest to use! I've been playing with the character ever since smash 64

So ‘just shield’ is actually an attempt at spreading misinformation on how to deal with it?

[@h4rdtr]

@ Kinda, the best thing you can do against fox imo is to not be stuck in a bad spot in the first place. Characters that can wall him out with safe disjoints like swordies and some others do best against fox while a lot of other characters just get run over or out-camped. The only characters that really get away with shielding against fox are characters like bowser, pikachu and gnw because you cant touch their shields easily. If you dont have busted oos then you want to wall him out and mix up your timing frequently so he doesnt parry you.

[@TQo1]

Ive never read this much concentrated bs in my entire life ..

[@orbitalape]

Who is ready for underrated tomorrow?

[@IAm-zo1bo]

Huh

[@bubbleyes1302]

Let’s hear some underrated mid-tiers

[@nrm236]

@Maxwell Jessen Ganon is widely considered the worst character in the game

[@Nolava0why7Because0yes]

@Maxwell Jessen Def not Ganon

[@alejandroespinoza5680]

boi the earth is ROUND Did you forget that little mac exists?

[@daimajin266]

Kirby, Ridley

[@AverageHandle_]

Maxwell Jessen nah ganon is low tier I would replace ganon with either Corrin or k.rool

[@rafaelblackman9879]

I think the reason why these character are overrated is because of the results they have and the people that do well with them. The better they do, the more people ignore the flaws of the characters. Not to say the characters are bad, it’s just that sometimes they get a bit too much attention/praise.

[@spyroaster5457]

The same thing would happen if other high and top tiers achieved the same results, like ZSS, Wolf, and Pikachu. All characters are suceptible to this. This is why matchup charts, along with character strengths and weaknesses are important in determining who is top tier, high tier, etc.

[@Dekutard]

I want to know who larry thinks is top 3, now that we know Joker and Peach aren’t in it

[@huglife3155]

It doesn't mean he doesn't think Joker is top 3. For example, Mew2King said Brawl Meta Knight was very overrated but still placed him as best in the game. It's just that he thinks that the gap between Joker and the other top tiers isn't as big as some people may think

[@johnf.kennedy2748]

With joker it's like smash 4 cloud a bit overrated but still a good top tier he's really scary because scary comeback mechanic but not an unbeatable character by any means he's in top 5 for me

[@UmbraStarWolf]

Smash 4 Cloud was absolutely top 2 in my opinion but he had weaknesses he was just better than Sheik Diddy Rosa other top 5 characters

[@jcgocrazy]

People think Joker is broken until they play him. Arsene is a different story tho😂

[@raghavarun9275]

big disagree with joker, even with mkleo out of the picture, a lot of top players use him as a cp or comain, most notably zackray he has some of the most consistent kill and approach options even without arsene as well as an amazing neutral and solid disadvantage despite the gun nerfs I really can't see him below top 3, but that's just my opinion

[@pouks]

i'm with you, this character has nearly no weakness and is good at everything imo, I see him top 2 with pikachu

[@raghavarun9275]

@@pouks yeah he loses like 3 matchups like pika

[@jakewaddell2067]

Raghav Arun greninja loses 2 matchups (wario and pika) and no one thinks he is top tier.

[@raghavarun9275]

@@jakewaddell2067 Greninja loses more than 2 matchups.

[@raghavarun9275]

@@coral3831 she maybe loses 8 matchups

[@pear3600]

Inkling dash Dance is still busted... fight me

[@Nolava0why7Because0yes]

I don't think anyone will because its true

[@memeburgler187]

I think palu is super overrated, linear overrated neutral, cant kill, and cant shield poke reliably with nair any more. A lot of people overate her because she is annoying to fight, kind of like melee jiggs.

[@TQo1]

she is

[@user-ds3bh4jt6r]

Cant kill? One of the best grabs + one of the best kill throws and a decently consistent kill confirm of grab, Invincible move that is stupid strong and safe, best 2 frames overall (upsmash kills early, dtilt as well), Nair confirms, and pretty good edgeguarding.

[@memeburgler187]

@@user-ds3bh4jt6rd throw bair doesn't work on more than half of the chars anymore, edge guarding got severely nerfed, and bair isn't safe on shield against 30% of the cast. Upsmash is rarely used and downtilt/uptilt kill at about 140-160. Back air and up air are her kill moves, but she cant land them consistently anymore due to d throw nerfs. Plenty of characters have significantly better killpower. Pikachu has better kill power after palu nerfs.

[@AHGavInDaUSA]

meme burgler -5 back air that has armor and -3 fair means that her linear neutral doesn’t really matter because of how effective it is. Dtilt back air works on ledge. Why in the world would Palu need to shield poke when she has that enormous grab range?

[@MM-gb3sv]

I agree that she struggles to kill now. Like edgeguarding is way harder now that there's no run off Nair. Also d throw back air doesn't really work most of the time. I feel like she has to rely on raw hits to take stocks, with no edgeguarding or kill confirm. Her neutral is good though

[@drainstorM11]

MKLeo is one of three top ten players who uses Joker. I get that his results would be hindered if Leo still played Marth and Lucina, but how can you say that he is carried by Leo. Edit: I also disagree about Peach. Peach isn't carried by Samsora, the high skill necessary to effectively play Peach is why Samsora is the only person who plays the character at top level. Umeki and MuteAce are the only other notable Peaches but the character shouldn't be tied to results, they should be tied to potential, and Peach has some of the largest potential of the top tiers. Also you didn't mention how Peach goes even against Donkey Kong and Little Mac.

[@spyroaster5457]

1. He said that about Joker because MKLeo is the only one who gets consistent results with Joker alone. Otherwise, Joker would be like Pikachu where the character is considered one of the best, but doesn't have many results. 2. I agree with you that Peach has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. If you combine Samsora's aggressive neutral with Umeki and LingLing's strong combo games, Peach really has only 1 losing matchup in Mr. Game & Watch, since his tools can still get past many of her tools. Every other character would struggle really hard against her. 3. Little Mac and Donkey Kong lose hard to Peach. For Little Mac, it's like 80-20 for Peach, and it's 70-30 for Peach regarding DK.

[@MM-gb3sv]

*2 top 10 players. Tweek dropped Joker a while ago

[@Mimiiii_VEV0]

Adam Henderson Mac even against Peach? God I wish...

[@fl6rence]

As a peach main I completely agree. She’s very floaty and doesn’t have the best landing options which can put her in a big disadvantage against a character with good juggling tools.

[@eightbitblitz5868]

If you ever do underrated characters, banjo should make the list.

[@kunntakentay]

Agreed

[@alfonshedstrom9859]

EightBitBlitz Lucas :(

[@jmann531]

My list would be lucas, banjo, ridley, duck hunt, and ryu

[@nezarredondo6101]

Banjo underrated? hahahahahahaha He was just very hyped, because "UGH, MUH CHILDHOOD."

[@jmann531]

@@nezarredondo6101 nice bait

[@israel2110]

As an inklkng main i agree with you. Inkling struggles alot to kill specially when people really know how to deal with the roller, and they have to be in really really high % so you can backtrow them at the ledge lol

[@elihearts1110]

sheik player here, killing 'late' doesn't matter if racking up percent is the easiest thing possible for our characters

[@leovincent1984]

@@elihearts1110 it s not as easy as you think since it is based on how your oponnent is inked

[@ravenfps]

Thank the lord larry didn't say lucina or wolf because both of those characters are fundamental characters their as good as your fundamentals. Also, I don't understand why people say "lucina is braindead" she literally has no jank or chesse her frame data is fast, but not spamable.

[@AverageHandle_]

ALEXANDER SULLIVAN Kroc who shall not he named doesn’t rely on cheese

[@AverageHandle_]

ALEXANDER SULLIVAN none of that is cheese

[@ravenfps]

@@AverageHandle_ Well, actually you can chesse with croc he can suck you up offstage and kill you if you character doesn't have a strong recovery, but it's very predictable and similar to kirby. His super amour is "janky" not chesse which is why wifi crocs just spam smash attacks still predictable, but alittle harder to punish on wifi.

[@AverageHandle_]

Kyros k.rool smashes are easy punishes you casual and if k.rool is going for neutral b offstage it’s what we call an edgeguard when not shooting kannonball towards the stage (when you’re the kannonball)

[@ravenfps]

@@AverageHandle_ Well no shit I literally just said his smashes are mad predictable and going for neutral b is predictable I don't need a repeat of what I just said. Croc is easy to fight and beat. He can't land and having no platforms makes like 100 times worst he's combo food he can be easily edgeguarded his tools are terrible his frame data is bad even for a heavy. The only notable strengths he has are weight and kill power. And getting suck up off stage is still "chesse" no matter how predictable it is.

[@tehli6726]

What is the background music at the beginning of the video?

[@Roupization]

snake not being on this list blows my mind. Unless people no longer count him as top tier? But damn, he dropped off hard. People thought he was #1 for like a week

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

I really dont think fox is easy to pick up. His glass cannon nature as well as his lack in kill options makes him so frustrating to play since it's so easy to die with him but so hard to kill. Especially when you've worked so hard to get to Nair-up smash percent, only to exceed it. Also, if you notice, many solid fox players, especially Light (who carries his character like Mkleo), have to get really good at Parries and Teching to mitigate their disadvantage state. Because a fox at disadvantage, especially offstage, is a dead fox.

[@vanadium0728]

Where's our underrated low tier characters list?

[@jacksontutt3439]

Wow I made a prediction list of who I thought was the most overrated. Larry mentioned exactly 0 of those characters. 5. Roy 4. ZSS 3. Wario 2. Palutena 1. ROB

[@Ridley96]

I’m glad you mentioned how jokers gun nerf was a big one, couldn’t agree more. A lot of people say he barely got nerfed lol

[@oddityxd2683]

Brock Strand It’s not as bad as a nerf as people think though. He just actually has to try

[@Sean-fz8if]

Better start aiming, lul

[@oddityxd2683]

Sean Thanks I will! :)

[@BoanergesTWELF12]

Anybody who thought they made the meta call by playing the best character in melee in a game where you think you play like melee mained Fox in Ultimate

[@brutal_lui]

What's your opinion on Meta Knight, I would love to see it, you can also talk about his strengths and weaknesses and why people don't play him, like the comment and the video please

[@Kolya-chu]

Holy crap. Best edited smash video I've ever seen. More people should have the gameplay being shown match what is being talked about. Thank you!

[@icebear6757]

Totally agree on Peach. Compared to other top tiers she struggles in a lot of more obscure MUs, which I feel people tend to overlook.

[@cagnacagnacagnacagna1127]

I play Peach religiously (played her for 7 months) and I agree with the points made here. She can kill and do upwards of 60% in a combo, but sometimes, disadvantage is pretty rough. She definitely needs a secondary like Lucina or ZSS to cover the bad matchups.

[@TQo1]

CagnaCagna CagnaCagna Doesnt Zss lose hard to Pikachu tho?

[@cagnacagnacagnacagna1127]

@@TQo1 the matchup between Peach and Pika is rather even in my experiences (ESAM sees it as even too). ZSS, I'd say only slightly loses (55/45). Reason for that is bc Pika has a hard time keeping ZSS in disadvantage due to Flip Jump and edge guarding is one of Pikachu's greatest strengths. ZSS can combo Pikachu well, but so can Pikachu despite ZSS being generally being faster. I'd like to hear feedback on the topic.

[@TQo1]

CagnaCagna CagnaCagna Id straight up say -2 lol. -1 on paper but in reality the match up for Zss requires so much brain and nerves, I personally couldnt last 5 rounds vs that busted rat with my precise hitboxes while he can do whatever he wants

[@cagnacagnacagnacagna1127]

@@TQo1 it does take a more methodical approach from ZSS (I pocket ZSS). It usually took Zair and laser camping and then go in to combo. Playing patient is super hard against Pikachu, but ZSS can certainly use her movement to choose when to go in. -1 at worst for the good Pika's I have played against.

[@AresAway]

Can you do a Tier list?, you have an interesting take on the top tiers

[@bungis1]

I feel like the logic behind Joker and Peach being overrated can be applied to multiple other top tiers, and is also kind of flawed. Pikachu is almost a consensus #1 character at this point, but only ESAM plays it at a high level. Palutena is consensus top 5 but only Nairo (a top 5 all time player) has made top 8 with her. If this logic applies to Joker and Peach then should it not apply to Palu and Pika as well? So far in Ultimate, results have been fairly consistent, and the consistent members of the top 10 all play different characters. Since the top 10 usually make up a majority of top 8 spots, it makes a lot of sense that each character has low top representation, because the best players don't have character overlap. Personally I think top player usage is not a very sturdy argument considering that there are 70+ characters in this game, and most people only really care about top 8 maybe top 16 placements when people argue about this stuff. If we only look at how many different people place well with a character, the top 5 would be something like: Rob, Wario, Wolf, Snake, PT Great video as always, really enjoy your content. Just wanted to put in my 2c regarding that argument.

[@bungis1]

@Random Person I was just listening characters with unique representatives that made top 8, which I can list 3 off the top of my head but there may be more

[@enricoasili6598]

Totally agree! I hate when everyone complains about joker being broken even though he's hard to master and he's strong just the same as other characters way easier than him!

[@jcgocrazy]

Joker isn’t broken, hes kinda weak if anything.. Arsene is kinda broken tho. Thats why everyone complains cause it feels like a gimmick when they die early to Arsene.

[@enricoasili6598]

@@jcgocrazy joker without arsene is still a good character. Not weak by any means! Respectably good, nothing broken, even with arsene.

[@jcgocrazy]

Enrico Asili By weak I mean he lacks kill power. By no means is he bad though. He needs Fair 1 setups or landing a charged fsmash to kill. The Bair only kills at like 130 offstage which is pretty weak.

[@enricoasili6598]

@@jcgocrazy that's for sure! xD

[@Sean-fz8if]

JcGoCrazy joker just has to combo them to a high%, then when the joker player reaches high% they'll almost always have arsene which leads to taking stocks easily

[@andrewli8305]

Fox: one of the hardest characters in the game to learn, one of the best when mastered.

[@Zulyahmed67]

no one talking about pokemon trainer hes sooo bad ( nah jk i just suck with him )

[@sean1976]

Great video. Would you make a tier list video?

[@LucasMBoysOurRoy]

Tbh I think Game and Watch is overrated. Up b is his only real gimmick and is predictable. Up and down smash are good, but are also predictable and punishable (mostly d smash). Bait is really good, I’ll give him that. He just has no range and disjoints, and his attacks don’t have long combos besides juggling. I’d say he’s a low high tier.

[@hermitvii5757]

Fox is so overrated. So many people think he can just throw out moves for free. I'm over here like "litteraly block, he's just A button". You literally just wait for the dash attack and punish or anti air the nair. He can't edgeguard, bad recovory, super light, has no grab game and like 1 kill confirm he can't kill without. Just adapt

[@TQo1]

bro dont even try it .. "he can overwhelm people and Light is a top 5 player so yeah." Once those toxic characters dominate theyll finally see how bad Fox really is

[@mtgleinado]

damn watchin light and dark wizzy play made me realize how much i miss real tournaments :(

[@rayshio6124]

7:56 did Samsora lock you in his basement?

[@sh-awe7328]

I think ZSS is overrated. Similarly to Joker and Leo, her perception is mostly carried by Marss. I know there are other strong ZSS players (especially in Japan), but none of them are like Marss.

[@TQo1]

Palu, Zss and Fox are way too overrated

[@HugoSoup57]

TQ BD Nah, Palu and ZSS are busted man

[@tenacity25]

Could we get underrated top tiers / underrated low tiers / overrated low tiers too? Some of them would be interesting. FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE SAYS JOKER IS OVERRATED HOLY CRAP!!!! I didn't even think he was #1 before the nerf, I thought the was somewhere between #2-3, and now I'd say #3-4, and I definitely think his results / people's view on him are inflated by Leo being a god. Agree on everything on this list, 100%. Seriously, it's nice to finally hear someone say this stuff.

[@ranbirrandhawa9736]

Inkling can have trouble killing, cries in bayonetta 😢

[@ranbirrandhawa9736]

Rarest it’s a different game that’s just now how it works

[@Rarest26]

@@ranbirrandhawa9736 Do you understand jokes?

[@ranbirrandhawa9736]

Rarest lol there was nothing pointing out it was a joke do you know how jokes work or sarcasm? At least mess it up a little like BaYo dEsRvEs it THO

[@Rarest26]

@@ranbirrandhawa9736 Happy?

[@ranbirrandhawa9736]

Rarest ❤️

[@NiceIntelligentGamers]

Link the song for the intro please father

[@ericpeterson6918]

I would've put ZSS in this list

[@antimatterstudios8395]

I feel like Shulks up here too. A lot of people complain about cheap or broken he is but after trying to main him I’ve realised that a lot of the techniques that people complain about are extremely hard to pull off effectively and he only seems to be used very well by a small percentage of players who put a lot of time into working on him

[@antimatterstudios8395]

Random Person I’ve been attacked by a bunch of people who claim that I play a cheap and easy character. Just from what I’ve seen and what I’ve experienced playing as him I think that Hess overated inn a similar way that peach is: very difficult to master

[@playerbest5836]

What is the song music called in the beginning

[@lanceboza3915]

Larry Lurr always sounds like a 6th grader reading off his 2 paragraph essay to the class

[@DNinjaaFGC]

No palu? List invalidated

[@painedyew7432]

I would say palu and snake are heavily overrated

[@jacksontutt3439]

Palu definitely yes, snake definitely no

[@virtualgamer673]

I agree with all of your points except for joker. Joker is 2nd best in the game without a doubt. His nerf didn’t do too much to him. As you said it took away some edgeguard potential but that’s about it. As for the second nerf just don’t get hit :) But in reality he still kept a lot of the things that makes him good (frame data, combos, Arsene, etc). All that nerf did was guarantee pikachu as best in the game.

[@TQo1]

Im literally praying for Fox buffs. Pikachu: Has throw combo, kill throws, throw kill confirms, endless kill confirms in general, best projectile in the game, combos everything into everything (even up b like ??), very good smash attacks, good frame data, ridicolous braindead hitboxes, multihits, mobility and a tiny frking hurtbox for literally not reason. Fox: *can overhwelm opponents with his not true combos* yeah bro, thats fair isnt it? Fox having almost nothing just because he has a little more speed. Fair fair, I wouldnt trade a little bit of speed for quite literally everything. Im just sitting there as a Fox suffering, losing to people who are way worse than me. I get it and I dont blame my opponents but internally I just go crazy knowin that Id beat MKLeo at this point if I had spent all that time I spent into Fox in freaking Pikachu.

[@dhendup6927]

I feel you thats why i went with Pika since he has so much options. He's fun to play

[@scalicali8073]

Fox doesn't need any buffs. Nerf Pikachu a little bit is the best thing to do since he is busted

[@dhendup6927]

Yeah saddly that should probably happen.. have you seen Esam's YT vids ? Obviously online warriors aren't fully aware of the matchup and DI's but just the fact that Pika is able to do that is insane :d

[@TQo1]

Scali Cali Fox loses to almost everyone. Dishonest characters ruin Fox. PacMan, G&W, Pikachu for example, they are meta right now and have free wins vs Fox if they are on the same skill lvl. People always say hes fine tho youve NEVER heard anyone dropping their character for Fox while you see everyone dropping him (check out Lights Twitter or ask around in your region). I know thats not an actual argument lol but it still sais something imo

[@scalicali8073]

@@TQo1 I understand but imo both G&W and Pikachu are the characters that need to be nerfed in the next patch. And ofc Fox has some bad matchups like PacMan, every character has bad and good matchups

[@morzanthegod3186]

Dash pivot cancel grab is amazing with Bowser. Very difficult to time but side be grab seem likely possible but comes out a few frames later than grab.

[@marco_yooo5090]

As a Peach main myself,I totally agree with your opinion,her loosing MU are really what holds her back. Very very good video :D

[@LinkXRetro]

I am very curious to what your personal top 5 picks for this game now.

[@NineDarkTales]

@LarryLurr so whos your top 3? 1) Pikachu 2) ??? 3) ??? Maybe palu? Wolf? Mario? Wario? Snake?

[@TQo1]

G&W and PacMan imo, so toxic. People focus on stats only and overlook reality

[@thewinkersshow575]

Rafael Mejia who puts snake, Wolf, or Mario even in top 5?

[@NineDarkTales]

@@thewinkersshow575 im just naming characters who top players consider top tier without mentioning the ones he mentioned in the video. With Joker, Peach and Inkling out of the picture I can only think of those on the top of my head

[@NineDarkTales]

@@thewinkersshow575 Many put those characters over R.O.B, G&W, Megaman, Pac-Man which are considered very good, I could imagine Shulk being on his top 3 I missed that one. Could be Pika, Shulk, Palu maybe, theres also ZSS

[@themustardthe]

4:30 I dont really get the sentiment that just because someone is really good at one character, and no one else is as good, the character isnt a good either. MKLeo is winning, because of the tools that joker gives him, not just because hes the best in the world, just like how Axe from melee isnt winning because hes really good, but because pika gives him the tools to win. It doesnt matter if theres only one person in the world that plays some character. If they get really good results, then the character has the tools to win

[@yedidyamajor1456]

I feel like when it comes to joker it's or: this character is so busted!! Leo sucks and is carried! Or: joker isn't that great, leo carries the character

[@vick7868]

Couldn't both be true? From where I'm sitting, Leo is an insanely good player who can take a character who anyway has ridiculously good tools and do stuff with them that only he really can consistently, pushing the character's limits even more.

[@yedidyamajor1456]

@@vick7868 obviously both have some truth, I think it's more Leo's skill but I was kinda talking about how people percive it rather then how I see it

[@mechakucha_]

@@vick7868 "X is an insanely good player who can take Y, who anyway has ridiculously good tools, and do stuff with them that only he really can consistently, pushing the character's limits even more." X = Leo, ESAM, Samsora, Marss, etc. Y = Joker, Pikachu, Peach, ZSS, etc. Let's also not forget that Leo could still be the best player while using, Ike, Lucina, and Wolf.

[@vick7868]

@@mechakucha_ Yeah, that's true. I'm just saying, in my experience, so many people either seem to say Leo is carried by Joker or Joker is not that good but Leo carries him, with no in between.

[@mechakucha_]

@@vick7868Fair enough

[@luka6389]

Hey! Inkling main out there. I honestly think that what you said Is 100 % right. The character even more online Is not top tier anymore . It was the case with Wolf too. These characters are Easy but good and so they were pretty good at the start of the game but now they're not. Yeah Sorry for the english i'm really bad.

[@Rarest26]

I agree except for her being easy. She isn´t absurdly hard of course, but she ain´t easy either.

[@TwilightWonderer]

I agree with Joker. Also, I feel like without Arsene, joker is just an average character in my opinion.

[@vick7868]

I personally think he would be really damn strong without Arsene, but Arsene just makes him even more so.

[@EdR-bu2sm]

Vivek Tarkunde “Pretty damn strong without Arsene”, yeah you are pretty delusional.

[@vick7868]

@@EdR-bu2sm no need to be rude. He has a killing bair, drag downs, a good approach and mixup tool with gun, combo throws and tilts, a strong recovery option, and a good spacing tool with side b. Definitely not bad.

[@seniorshrek6197]

#removearsene

[@mechakucha_]

​@@vick7868 bair kills at like 160+ lol. Even Byleth can do drag downs. Doesn't mean much when his up air hitbox size is small. It's good, but not that great. I'll give you the good approach (although more than half the cast has this). Combo throws are good, but again half of the cast has this. Everyone has a tilt? His recovery is better than average sure (can easily get gimped by some characters tho) and side B is decent, but did you know that you can nullify it by hitting it? He's not a bad character, but easily just around average. His damage per hit is also quite low. In fact, his most damaging combo can only do 24%. He also has no good out of shield option. If you try using him, you'll realize how much precision is required in order to have fluid movement and land hits without getting whiff punished.

[@dustyacer]

Totally agree! i always hated when people hated on samsora's and other top peach's mu chart. i play a lot of zoners, and most of their mu charts has peach under winner or even. her combo game isnt even that amazing compared to the shotos, mario, etc.

[@AHGavInDaUSA]

Lackluster combo game compared to Mario? Uh ohhhh Stinky analysis

[@MM-gb3sv]

People meme it not because of the losing mus to zoners, but the ones to heavies like dk

[@samuelvavia8920]

Any Roy (not just a skilled one) can beat any Fox

[@TQo1]

Fax homie. Tho Id say Roy is kinda honest in the end, also dishonest characters such as G&W, Pikachu or Pac Man just have free wins no matter what. tOP tiER bTW

[@milesandrews6711]

I mean Roy has a very iffy recovery and fox has better Frame data the only thing Roy has over him is dis joints

[@Sean-fz8if]

TQ BD that moment when an honest character kills you at 80 off a frame 5 jab

[@TQo1]

Sean Roy jab bair / side b kills Fox at 50 lol

[@DandDgamer]

Nicely put together. Always respect when people can admit that a player is carrying a character, it shows a lot of humility compared to those who just complain about the char

[@amestrisgone]

I think wolf is overrated, since the beginning and I still do

[@winterlogical]

I think it was the early success Zackray showed with him and Tweek recently experiencing success that has influenced people's opinions on the character. I think he's definitely top tier - amazing neutral when played well, two frame down smash is still ridiculous, easy guaranteed combos and damage output, laser is outlandishly good. But he's a fastfaller so gets punished for big damage, not the best disadvantage state in general - his recovery is sometimes easily two framed or predictable, as well. So idk where most people are putting him in top tier but I'd say bottom-mid or bottom of top tier. I don't see his match up spread being as solid as other top tiers which is why i'd agree he's overrated.

[@raghavarun9275]

Wolf busted bro everyone plays him

[@mehgamer467]

Nah he fell off for a reason. Still high tier, but yeah.

[@TQo1]

Bro I thought so too until I played against a good one. Hes actually SO insane but I cant figure out why

[@alopexbroadnax2222]

I recently started playing fox wolf is my main but I can see what people are talking about fox can be hard to kill with since he relies so heavily on his up nair and his smash attacks to kill

[@lemonboy5498]

Yo, it’s about time someone acknowledges Joker’s weaknesses

[@samstuewe1039]

Just edge guard him after Arsene is gone

[@JacobOnodera]

Sam Stuewe you can do the same even with Arsene

[@AquaJet738]

What about Lucina? Easy to pick up, really straightforward moveset, and has several combo starters and kill options

[@vyq6014]

thank god u didnt say zss i would have been forced to dislike. i respect this list!

[@marcofuentes2975]

vyQ Ikr I have a friend whos super annoying about ZSS and it's just the worst. He's probably watched this video so hopefully he doesn't see this comment and get mad at me 😅

[@vyq6014]

DCE Profiles if he sees this and gets mad at you I hope he reads this aswell: You are carried😏

[@-Gnarlemagne]

It's hard to say ZSS is overrated when half the community says she's top 5 and the other half says she's not even top tier ZSS placement is such a weird discussion lmao Not top 5 IMO, loses too many important matchups, but definitely top 10

[@lemmyxpro]

Even MKLeo Himself Said The Downguns Nerf Didn't Matter... (As Far I Can Remember) And Most People Try To Camp Out Arsene, So Hitting Him To Make Him Lose Arsene Dosen't Matter 100% Of The Time

[@OGSumo]

Why do you type where the first letter of each word is capital? Is it a software thing?

[@BigMastah79]

Tbh, Peach is kinda overrated, but she is still like, terrifying in the right hands

[@kribyy7784]

Pikachu is overated

[@MegaMania0]

You keep overstating the effect of Joker’s nerf in 7.0.0

[@DedikateSSB]

I agree with inkling, sure they are amazing but i think they are mid or even low top tier and not top 10. I disagree with joker, personally i think he's the 3rd best in the game, with peach at 2 and pikachu at 1. I disagree with olimar, i used to think he was very overrated until i played against him BUT i do think he's the worst top tier in the game. I always go back and fourth with fox but right now i agree with you. I disagree with Peach because this character can do everything very well besides reflect projectiles. Alright, now my turn to give the top tiers i think are overrated, i'm going off of that "official" tier list that ZeRo made the video on because... idk. i just am. I think palutena is overrated, she is 100% not top 5 in my opinion, i think at best she's low in the top 10. I think Lucina is overrated, she's still top tier but low top tier, i think Chrom is better in my opinion. I think Mario is very overrated, again, he's still top tier but low top tier, i know he can combo, his recovery is decent, his frames are decent and he can kill but i think Wario is clearly the better option, if Wario wasn't so good i wouldn't think Mario was overrated. Inklings overrated but i already said i agreed with you on that. I think that's it. I'd go more in depth about my reasonings if this wasn't just a youtube comment.

[@toadssb3523]

Great video Larry! I love your content

[@fordprefect5104]

Do people still think Olimar is top tier?

[@mehgamer467]

Nope. He said in video that high tier.

[@fordprefect5104]

@@mehgamer467 but it is a video about overrated top tiers.

[@danielvasi2376]

Yes. A ton of Pros still consider him top-tier! Armada, Zero, Void, Shogun, Maister, NotBae, etc...

[@fordprefect5104]

Really? I didn't think people thought that after the nerfs but ok.

[@mehgamer467]

@@danielvasi2376 you sure cause I thought general consesus ( to olimar mains at least) agree he is high tier. I'll check out their tier list, but he is in the same boat as pichu

[@leaffinite2001]

My list would be Inkling Fox Peach Joker I don’t have a fifth. Maybe Lucina, she has a rep for being brain dead, but she’s not that easy. Also idk if Fox counts, but people think he wins a lot more matchups than he does. And he loses to most top tiers I think

[@Rarest26]

Lucina is arguably the easiest character in the game. What are you talking about?

[@leaffinite2001]

@@Rarest26 i mean shes easy, but a lot of people act as if shes top 5 and anyone who plays her is carried by the character, which just isnt true.

[@Rarest26]

@@leaffinite2001 Ok that makes sense

[@jakewaddell2067]

Lucina and palutena should be on this list as well.

[@Taylorperchasemccarthy]

You’re more than correct. They’re the most overrated characters in the game. I’ve mained Lucina since day 1 and Palu since the first week, and I’m tired of people saying they’re incredible. Lucina doesn’t really do much and Palu can struggle to kill, especially after this last patch. The only thing they’re good at is being honest.

[@TQo1]

Jake Waddell 100%.

[@Nolava0why7Because0yes]

just play mario lol, characters dum

[@anthonyjeong5497]

I don't agree with his argument about Joker, other than him being not definite Top 2 character in this game. Down gun nerf, while it affects MUs where Joker did get much more advantage with it, does not heavily affect Joker's ability to play amazing neutral, keep people in disadvantage state, and simply get kills with either arsene or ledgetrap/edgeguarding. If anything it should be the Arsene nerfs that heavily affected Joker's prowess. Even Zackray acknowledges this in one of his videos. While people may claim MKLeo carries the character, that doesn't mean Joker is not one of the best characters in the game, or he is overrated; Leo is just the only one who can bring out the full potential of Joker consistently at this level. Every player gets affected by the characters they use. They utilize their character's options and strengths way better than others so that it works in top level plays. No top players just randomly picks up a low tier and gets results consistently, because their options are limited with the given character. I'm not trying to undermine MKLeo's ability and his status as the best player in the world currently. He clearly is and proved that through countless times. Maybe certain someone thinks otherwise, but that's an another story. However, when you see Leo's result with other characters vs. Leo's results with Joker, you'll see much more consistent 1st and 2nd place placement with Joker. In fact, at least in offline tournament, except for the first tournament he used Joker in where he got 33rd, he never dropped below 4th, and he had 1st and 2nd place after those 2 tournaments ever since. This alone proves both how good and versatile Joker is in the current metagame when played optimally, and how well Joker synergizes with MKLeo's strengths.

[@stuff1487]

This might be a hot take but Pikachu is overrated so hard that I feel like calling Pika the best in the game currently is a hard bandwagon. A lot of Pika’s cheese doesn’t work at top level and Nair loops are much more inconsistent than people think and also depending on the stage. Pikachu can a lot of the time get stuffed out from having shorter range on his moves and I also think the problem is that you have to play perfect and at tournaments where you’re gonna make mistakes, that’s a problem. Sometimes he can die early too. And other top tiers can just snowball harder like Joker and Wario. I think Pikachu is in top 10 for sure but best in the game, idk about that. Feels like one person said Pikachu is the best and everyone just jumped on that opinion at one point after Pichu got nerfed.

[@percy3422]

Idk about all that. Pikachu is pretty hard to hit so saying he can die early sometimes isn’t really a problem. Especially with his pancaking. Any character can die early sometimes. Pikachu also has one of if not the best matchup charts in the game so I think it’s fair to call him the best character. It’s not like Pikachu is Smash 4 Sheik levels of you have to play perfect, definitely still a hard character to master but he has pretty reliable ways to kill in the form of really good edgeguarding, hell even a spike, a good up smash, and Thunder setups.

[@bigmanjones]

Yeah we're just bandwagoning, not like the character can combo off any possible stray hit (to death on heavies), best matchup spread in the game bar none, pancakes after every move so whiff punishing is impossible, but can whiff punish across the stage with quick attack (and combo off THAT too cus why not), can edgeguard very easily and is literally immune to edgeguards, oh but he's light tho so... top 10

[@TQo1]

I quote: "Pikachu: Has throw combo, kill throws, throw kill confirms, endless kill confirms in general, best projectile in the game, combos everything into everything (even up b like ??), very good smash attacks, good frame data, ridicolous braindead hitboxes, multihits, mobility and a tiny frking hurtbox for literally not reason." Miss me with your bs. Youre carried.

[@ergot4716]

TQ BD As a Pika Main, he is definitely not overrated. Range is a weakness but is easily made up for with thunder jolt and quick attack. Both of which are free neutral win or in your face buttons. All pika mains (including myself) are carried by their character.

[@H4ri4n]

I think that if you master peach turnip combos, she is not overrated in any way at all. Also she is great in home run contest.

[@adamdornoff764]

Could you put out either under rated characters or who you think is top 5? I am just curious since peach and joker are there in most lists and want to know who you have over them/why. Love the vids!