Toriel and Asgore's Parenting Problems | Undertale & Deltarune Analysis

Toriel and Asgore's parenting is not without problems, no matter how much they love they give. In this video, I discuss their struggles to see worrying signs in Kris, Chara, Flowey, and what that means for them as characters and a family.
Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
0:50 - Sibling Contrast
6:35 - After the Tragedy
11:12 - Deltarune and the Future
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My other Analytical Content: • Learning to Love Berdl...
• The Truth About Papyru...
Flowey has PTSD analysis: argentdandelion.tumblr.com/po...
Undertale alarm clock: undertale.com/alarmclock/
#undertale #toriel #asgore #characteranalysis #chara #asriel #flowey #frisk #krisdeltarune #krisdreemurr #kris

[@Dorked]

Thank you so much for 16.5k subs! This video has been in the works for a while, but due to health issues and RL obligations, got delayed until just now. Share your thoughts in the comments! And don't forget to check out the Alphys video if you missed it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKKWpmSMm8t8hc0 Inverted Fate resumes next Saturday! invertedfate.com. My patreon is at patreon.com/dorked. You can support me on Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/invertedfate. Still trying to plan which Inverted Fate OST uploads to prioritize as sort of stopgaps between these video essays, as they take a lot of prep work. Check out my other Analysis vids here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aofJeZt4nZaWbsU Read Inverted Fate at: invertedfate.com/chapters Inverted Fate OST: soundcloud.com/megaflamehedge/sets/inverted-fate-ost Sewer Fundraiser: gofund.me/6989ad02 Read my Kingdom Hearts fic, Antipode at: archiveofourown.org/series/18376

[@soggydeskchair]

Congrats!!!❤❤❤

[@Zarkai_09]

Love the video! Keep the great content 😉

[@andreanunez9908]

Actually it is 16.6k subs 🤓

[@archafromdmc1913]

A banger analysis keep up the good work

[@bharatsachdeva6683]

Love the video and IF, can't wait for Saturday

[@monotoneheadphones]

While toriel is a very sweet character, a LOT of people overlook the fact that shes also very overbearing towards her children, or possibly anyone who falls into her care, and people ignoring that about her has irked me for some time now. These character analysis videos are great, so keep it up and stay determined!!

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I think people tend to just focus on the sweet, wholesome vibes because a lot of people loved Toriel from the start and wanted to stay with her. And that's valid! But I feel like to only focus on that is a disservice to how complex she really is.

[@krysmun]

@@Dorked She's also shown some clear resentment to certain parties, namely ASGORE, but also to the monsters as a whole, namely those outside the ruins. since they were also just as outraged to find out about Asriel's death and probably blamed Chara in some part for it too. She's shown many times to care more for the humans who fall than for the monsters she's lived with her whole life. And She assumed that the monsters would all *only* try to Kill any humans that passed through out beyond the ruins, and since for some reason she couldn't accompany them (either since she didn't want to face the monsters again after leaving, or decided it wasn't worth coming back, or something else), she would rather they not leave The ruins at all. And for the next six humans that fell, I guess you could say she was right, but simply because she wasn't there to show the monsters that peace was still possible, and especially to talk asgore out of declaring war in the first place. What she'd created, in a sense, was a Self-Fulfilling prophecy. She's definitely the kind of person who's quick to hold a grudge, and find it hard to let go of one, too. And it's not just in Undertale, that same quirk of hers persists in Deltarune too, since she shows disgust and bitterness, if not just coldness, whenever Asgore is brought up, or when she speaks to him directly, while Asgore is still as cheerful as he can be with her. He doesn't hold a grudge against her like she does against him.

[@matti.8465]

We don't really know if Toriel was always overbearing, or if this behavior came as a result of losing so many children.

[@1slayer959]

@@krysmun yeah. So many people overlook Toriels glaring flaws. I think the Flirting route explained the problem with Toriel best. She abandoned Asgore when his grief was causing him to lash out. She may not have done anything wrong techniquely, but she is guilty through inaction. Especially considering that she could at any point grab the humam souls and gone to the human world to make peace.

[@AliceTheNeko]

I REALLY dislike Toriel. There was no reason that she couldn't have come with Frisk from the beginning; but instead, Toriel decided that she would rather let you die in the snow than lift a finger to help if it meant thinking about her ex husband. The worst part is that she KNEW that Frisk was the last soul Asgore needed to kill all humans, and she STILL decided to sit back and likely let genocide happen for such petty reasons. Anyone who acts so two-faced can't have loved Frisk as much as she claimed she did. I will never understand why most people choose to abandon everyone they know and love to live with that psychopath whom Frisk only just met that very same day at the end. What a slap in the face to their loved ones.

[@catgotslap1238]

This video made me realize that, like you said, Toriel and Asgore can’t really understand kids with mental illness. It’s interesting to see how their flawed parenting eventually led to the very events of Undertale

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I don't think they're against mental illness. I think it's just they genuinely struggle to consider that love alone isn't going to "fix" problems like that, or the idea of a child experiencing such 'adult' things might be a tough pill to swallow.

[@catgotslap1238]

@@Dorked Yeah they don’t seem to be against it, they just fail to understand how it works and how to help someone through it. That along with them not being able to see a child go through that makes it difficult for them to help

[@melissatroubls9967]

@@Dorked and what if they actually don't understand all children ?

[@CountDVB]

@@Dorked Then again, we’re assuming that they even know of such problems. Being monsters, they have fundamentally different physiologies and the differences between humans and monsters are highlighted in story

[@Dorked]

@@CountDVB To be fair, we have monsters like Alphys who show signs of depression. xD

[@missfairrosegold7766]

I still stand by how Toriel and Asgore giving the red horned headband to Kris is best example of what I've called to be a trait of denial in Dreemurrs: Instead of gently informing Kris that they're human and how it's okay to be different from monsters, they both just used an item where they both can deny and ignore how Kris's a human to have Kris to try to fit it with monsters which all it does is make Kris has a complex of how they're only human in a place of monsters and the red horned headband is proof of Kris is not a monster with how a human is unable to have monster traits such as horns

[@antunderexist692]

I Think Kris Wanted The Red Headband Becasue It Looks Cool, Not Becasue They Different Becasue In UnderTale They Dont Even Care Differences. So Why Would In Deltarune They Could Care?

[@OlgaZuccati]

@@antunderexist692 because Kris is a diff character and both world's continuity is completely different. Kris cares about how they're diff to monsters. They even searched on the internet how to use magic.

[@Magma-Idiot-2001]

​@@antunderexist692it's stated (by Toriel, I think) that they got the headband in response to Kris asking when their horns will grow.

[@alzhanvoidsansado]

Deltarune was the game that broke my little "bubble" of ignorance I had regarding Toriel. Pre-Deltarune, Undertale's Toriel was a sweetheart I loved at first, and it was only once I had formed an opinion on her that I started noticing her flaws, but by that point I already did not want my image of her to break, so I swept it under the rug. Acknowledged, on some level, but not internalized. You could say I pulled a Toriel and just pretended everything was fine. But seeing Kris... and their relationship with their mother... It was a sad day when I had to fully admit that goat mom, was not that awesome... (I still love Asgore though, every flaw he has somehow makes me like him more. I don't understand how he does it, but I ain't complaining.)

[@Dorked]

Oh yeah, even with her flaws, I think Toriel is a good character. She's not malicious- she just struggles in areas she could use some genuine work. And Asgore is also great. Gets so much unfair hate. He made a lot of mistakes, but he's still a really solid character overall.

[@CaptainCFalcon]

I love Asgore explicitly BECAUSE of how flawed he is. He doesn't try to hide them, & most of them aren't individually his own fault. Many of them are simply the burdens of being a monarch. He does what he does for the benefit of his people, as a ruler *_should._* Even when most, if not ALL, of these choices are ones he would never make of his own volition.

[@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep]

@@CaptainCFalcon Yep. He has done possibly the most heinous stuff imaginable in the Undertale universe. But I never rank him as being as close to evil as Spamton is

[@cosmicspacething3474]

They’re both awesome despite their flaws

[@LoverofTragedy]

@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep Idk. Eating the snowman feels a lot worse than what he did.

[@potatopotato3284]

Since Asgore puts a lot of pressure onto kids, calling Chara the angel and expecting Frisk to find a way to break the barrier, makes me wonder if he put similar expectations onto Undyne since it implies he met her as a kid. Maybe he'd tell her that she would be a guard one day and be the one to take the final soul and save monster kind, perhaps feeding into her idea of all humans being bad

[@Dorked]

I think it's hard to say with Undyne because she already wanted to fight "bad guys" even before Asgore trained her, so I think it's a case of Undyne already having the passion and drive.

[@HEHEHE_I_AM_A_SUPAHSTAR_WARRIA]

I don't think Asgore would do that with Undyne, Asgore hated what he was doing so it wouldn't make sense to put pressure on someone else to take the soul. Undyne just already believed in the war Asgore started

[@M4x_D4350n]

@@Dorked fair angle to look at it from, but it's also possible that by training her he inadvertly enabled her hatred towards humans. Not that I think he'd do it intentionally, but that it could have been feuled further.

[@rafsandomierz5313]

@@M4x_D4350nNope Gerson probably was telling her about the war, since she mentions that she knows about Gerso n fighting in a war since she was under Gersons care, thus Undyne would deducted humans as bad guys.

[@chrissysonicutdrloz]

Something that I just realized: Toriel is all "don't hurt my kids!" but she completely forgets that Asriel and Chara were Asgore's kids, too. They're both hurting the same way, they just dealt with it in opposite ways. Something I've been thinking of for a long time: Toriel turned her back on the entire monster race. You can kill a Froggit right in front of her, and she still smiles sweetly and calls you an innocent child. Not to mention that another Froggit says all the Ruins monsters are intimidated by her. But no monsters are intimidated by Lord Fluffybuns, y'know? Anyway, Toriel left all her own people behind, and then she seriously has the gall to show up outta nowhere and declare herself queen? What cheek! I like Toriel well enough, but, uh... She not perfect, alright?

[@chrissysonicutdrloz]

@mel I'm calling bull on every single thing you said I don't see how Toriel went thru more than Asgore. They BOTH lost their kids. Yes, monsters CAN see you killing other monsters, because if they can't, then Alphys couldn't have watched our battles. And Toriel and Asgore are DIVORCED. She is NOT his spouse anymore, she has no more claim to the throne than Undyne or Papyrus.

[@chrissysonicutdrloz]

@mel whatever- you must be one of the ones that refuses to see Toriel's flaws

[@lambybunny7173]

@mel holy shit you're one of the WORST toriel stans i've ever seen. if you aren't going to realize toriel's flaws get out of this comment section, because it clearly isn't you. i've seen you in the replies of EVERY COMMENT that points out toriel's flaws despite being on a video ABOUT toriel's flaws (as well as asgore's, obviously). you can't have a civil conversation, you're probably like 12. get out until you can be civil, maybe even delete all of your comments because... seriously you're. you're awful. you're going to regret this when you grow up, you're going to feel AWFUL about how you made fun of people for trying to have a civil conversation and then giving up when you keep bashing them. if you're a child, i pray you get better. if you're an adult. get help. please.

[@dana6434]

sorry to tell you but she does very much abandon monsterkind maybe it's just my dislike of toriel but I think that she is a hypocrite. you're saying that she's lost 6 children but it's her fault. she could've gone and protected them all the way through underground, but she let them go fully knowing that every monster in the underground is out for them. also instead of leaving and letting asgore kill every human she could've take the matters in her own hands. instead, she leaves, sulking and blaming asgore for everything while he's the one who tries to do something for their people.

[@TheYeetedMeat]

@AMELIUR asgore had to kill 6 children that reminded him of his own one that he lost, because of a rash decision he made when he was grieving that was also very probably necessary to keep the hopes of his entire race up. I think the guy probably has some kind of issues from that.

[@thesentienttaco1678]

Another thing to tie into this is that Chara and Toriel both introduce each other with "greetings" and Flowey and Asgore both introduce each other with "howdy". This not only ties into to how Chara and Toriel act much more formal than Asriel (who basically just acts like a child) and Asgore. But also how Chara being so controlling to Asriel could tie in to how Toriel always seems much more controlling and unforgiving to Asgore than Asgore is to her, especially in deltarune where Toriel tries to give flowers to Toriel and she just straight up trashes them which yeah, it's implied Asgore probably did something pretty bad but she doesn't even seen to give it a second thought. This could imply Chara had a much stronger relation with Toriel than Asgore while Asriel had a stronger relation with Asgore. Then this could I guess maybe also tie into why Chara laughs when Asgore gets sick (although that probably is still just nervous laugh).

[@Dorked]

Yeah, you can definitely see the parallels between the kids and the parents! Makes me wonder about Kris and their speech patterns. Maybe we'll find out one day, as there is concept art of Kris talksprites.

[@melissatroubls9967]

@@Dorked ... could it be related to the Weird Route ? I know it's not Kris's fault of what happens there, but such scenario could be also showing how Kris would mimic Toriel. for me it seems that Toriel doesn't like when somebody who could be usefull is weak. Toriel mostly shows such behavior towards adults. but Toriel is not bad, she would help, if they prouve that they're strong enough...so in the Weird Route, Kris was just helping her old friend to become stronger ... despite what actually Noelle wants... maybe....probably ... Noelle would be ok with eliminating Berdly. but I don't like opening the pandora boxes ... do you think in meta context the Queen from Cyber world is a bit Toriel ??

[@thesentienttaco1678]

Something that is also interesting to go with this is how flowey says that he's tried hundreds of ways to get Asgore to show him the souls but he knows he'll do it for you (Chara). This could imply that either Asgore liked Chara more than flowey or it felt that way to Asriel. Maybe this just means that flowey thinks Chara will be more persuasive but maybe (like how Asriel seems to get the most attention in deltarune) Chara (being in such a vunerable position) got more attention in undertale from the dreemurs. This also reminds me of just how ridiculous Chara's speech is anyway. Like they definitely took some it from Toriel but Asriel still speaks like a normal child and he's been with the dreemurs for even longer so maybe that could tie into what Chara's human family was like?

[@Ammiteur9]

@@Dorked Really? There is concept art? If you don't mind, could you please tell me where you found it? I love concept Art, and to see Deltarune concept art is always especially amazing!

[@redactedoktor]

I love when people say things I thought! Honestly, this is probably 100% the case. It also adds to Toriel’s reaction to Asgore’s declaration of war, and also why she is the way she is. Like Asgore, she probably saw some of Chara in Frisk, and the other humans. Anyone find it weird that Toriel constantly refers to these stranger children as “My child”? She was probably so shocked from Chara and Asriel’s death, she’s traumatized and this is her way to cope. Toriel is traumatized, Asgore is depressed, Asriel is soulless, Chara is dead, and the entire family is split up! That is sad! Props Toby, you just wrote a greek tragedy, with a weirdly ignored amount of biblical and Christian symbolism!

[@tooth_butter9258]

I love this so much! I never really thought about how Toriel and Asgore might not comprehend the idea that children can be anything but mentally stable before, but this makes a lot of sense. I really like how unbiased this was, because many videos about Toriel and Asgore tend to villainise one or both, when really they’re both much more nuanced characters than that.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I try to stay away from bashing if at all possible, because Toby's characterization is just so layered and complex. I think boiling any UT/DR character to pure black and white morality tends to miss the point.

[@CountDVB]

Well, there is the fact that monsters are fundamentally quite different than humans so I imagine that is quite a large part of it.

[@kyaksachan502]

@@Dorked TY, you don't understand how much i love unbias anylsis because i hate when ppl simplify their negative traits and overlook the naucances. It's so frustrating. Like people aren't simple in the slightest, also you have woken my third eye regarding Toriel which i have never considered, and the fact people want to paint a strawman of their dislike characters and put on a pedastal their favorites is so annoying, especially when they're trying to prove a point.

[@user-xy5yg6se1k]

of course they are, they're undertale characters

[@Sobeitut]

i remember pointing out some of toriel and asgore's parenting flaws, (especially both of them not realizing that Asriel and Chara were basically attempting su!cid3), in a youtube comment a while back, and all the replies went WILD. i'm kind of glad that someone else acknowledges that those two weren't perfect parents

[@Dorked]

People can be pretty defensive when it comes to their favs! Sometimes aggressively so. It's a shame, but hopefully it won't get too spicy here.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I think six years of release and the shiny new thing being Deltarune (plus the fact that Toriel is far more overtly bitter) makes Undertale analysis far safer to do now.

[@matti.8465]

Personally, I choose to see Flowey's inability to care as an actual condition, rather than it just being trauma. That makes all those "save Asriel" scenarios fairly annoying, because I think Flowey COULD lead a mostly happy life despite his condition.

[@Dorked]

Oh, I agree. I definitely feel like there's room for Flowey to be happy- and I think his behavior post-pacificist shows that he came out of that situation just a little better.

[@yamatanoorochi3149]

So, so, so many comics on the internet about a post-pacifist au where flowey is a potted plant living life with Frisk, Toriel, everyone, learning to maintain his self and overcome his soullessness while occasionally facing his parents' grief for him and the fear of what they would think of him for what he's become I should look for them again, I dunno where they are anymore

[@sugarpapaelmo2004]

I normally like the Asriel hyperdeath depictions where he’s just an asshole who wants people dead, because he isn’t a soft, kind hearted kid like most people like to depict him as, he literally killed people, tortured them, reset and did all over again, and basically did horrible things a kid could have done with that sort of power with little to no authority to watch over him. Plus, it didn’t help that he didn’t have a soul. And honestly, if Toriel and Asgore were “good” parents (they’re loving, but negligent), he would’ve stuck with them instead of running away, but he didn’t stay with them, like dorked said, they weren’t equipped to deal with kids that were unhappy, which is one of the major reasons why Asriel became Flowey in the first place

[@vilmavenla]

@@yamatanoorochi3149 that is so wholesome. and it gives a great message: you don't need to be completely cured from a condition to be happy. but you can learn to live with it.

[@thefangirlingpuellamagi3345]

I feel like being a flower not fit for consciousness might have something to do with that

[@kristinberthiaume7634]

Hmm, while I agree that Toriel is a stifling parent, I’m not convinced she “doesn’t know what to do with Kris” or is “resigned”. Rather I think she recognizes Kris is happiest when they can be themselves, however odd “themselves” is. I believe her comment about Susie, that she “seems like a nice girl”, despite her behavior, is genuine, and probably informed by getting to watch Susie grow up in her classroom. This, coupled with Toriel’s comment to Alphys that she’s been worried about Kris only lately (not overall), indicates that she recognizes the quality of Kris and Susie’s character apart from their behavior. This ability undoubtedly ties into her talent as a teacher, and may have originated from her (hinted-at) somewhat rowdy youth. In short I think she comes off as “resigned” because she doesn’t blame herself for, or fret over, Kris’s behavior. Instead she recognizes that Kris wants to be a weird kid, and that’s okay; that the weirdness is not an indicator of Kris’s unhappiness or failings; and this enables her to distinguish Kris’s baseline “weird” from genuinely worrying behavior when something sinister (the events of Deltarune) is going on.

[@Dorked]

This is a good counterpoint! I do appreciate that she is able to see the good in Susie despite her bad reputation and shows her a lot of kindness and patience. A lot of people were afraid Toriel would be disapproving of their friendship. I do still wonder, though. Toriel definitely shows concern for Kris' behavior when she talks to Alphys, and yet the whole "Kris does this sometimes" is still concerning. I imagine Kris being a human also adds to the stress since there could be the question of, "Is this a human thing?"

[@samgeorge1452]

The "Kris, err, does this sometimes." hits harder when you consider Toriel is talking about Kris going into the bathroom, turning on the water so no one can hear them, and then being gone for an excessive amount of time. Poor Kris :/

[@Ninitendo]

I know what that hints at and that just hits

[@Koda_Rain]

​@@Ninitendowhat does it hint¿

[@nessie968]

Self harm probably ​@Koda_Rain

[@badnessthehuman5660]

You can actually find Toriel at the beginning of the game (where you fall) after you fight Toriel, and she say "Do not worry about me Someone have to care those flowers" or something like that I know, she's still "closed" for the outside world but you still see her after the fight

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I wanted to touch on that, but I wasn't sure how to fit it in with the pace the rest of the video was going at. I actually did that in my first playthrough. xD

[@MasterSquirrel993]

I think this analysis holds a lot of weight. With Toby’s love of deconstructing and playing with typical media tropes, it’s easy to read Toriel and Asgore as a deconstruction of the “Good Parents” trope/archetype common in media. On paper, they really do seem like the perfect, loving, flawless parents we’d all want to have. But when you look beyond the surface, they’re not without their character flaws by any means. And personally, I think that makes them far more interesting characters. I really do hope Toriel will show up in Chapter 3’s dark world, and that double doors in the Flower Shop backroom will mean we’ll also be getting a Dark World there. There really is a lot to unpack with the Deltarune Dreemurrs, and family already seems like an overarching theme, what with Queen’s seeming parallels to Noelle’s own mother. And considering in Undertale, the Dreemurrs comparatively received the least screentime out of the “main six,” I think this would be a great chance to really flesh them out, and fully go over the conventions of their characters in ways Undertale couldn’t over the course of its story :) …All that aside, when you brought up Toby’s Tumblr Sexyman post I straight up guffawed. My respect for him as a comedic writer increased _so much_ after hearing about that, still can’t believe it’s real _and_ in-character throughout XD

[@Dorked]

I'm so glad this was timed in such a way that I could sneak in his fanfiction. ;) But yeah! Lots of good observations here. I think the flower shop has a ton of potential for a dark world. Double doors in general I'm kinda squinting at and contemplating possible dark world candidates. Like toby, whatchu doing? >:|

[@Persona_Random_]

yeah, sometimes it seems that for the fandom the only resolution of all the conflicts of the dreemurr family is that asgore and toriel get back together, when it would be necessary for them to talk things out. toriel should learn that she doesn't always know best and that she should start listening to others, while asgore should stop hating himself (there was a comic of an au called growht spurt that treat this quite well) i think sans could help toriel to realize that she's being too hard on asgore, since maybe because of their friendship she decides to listen to his advice. On the other hand, I think that Alphys and Undyne would make a perfect combo to improve Asgore's self-esteem and help him accept his past mistakes. frisk of course, would also help them both find peace leaving the past behind and have a good relationship (even if it's not a romantic one, it would still be too early for that). But hey, I think I'm digressing, I'd better finish this comment before I feel like writing a fanfiction about all this.

[@Dorked]

These are all good insights! Honestly, I think sometimes them not getting back together is refreshing because divorce happens. Doesn't mean they have to hate each other forever. I think in the best case scenario, they can learn to be kind to each other again, even if they aren't romantically involved. Not that I have anything against the wish fulfillment of them being a couple again. Some people love that and find it cozy and comforting, which is totally chill. There's definitely a lot of ways to unpack and explore all of this!

[@Persona_Random_]

@@Dorked Divorce should definitely be normalized in stories focused on a young audience. I personally wouldn't like them to be a romantic couple again, not because I have anything against the ship (I myself love to ship characters), but because I think it would be a good way to show another type of family. that although they no longer love each other in that way and cannot interact as before, that is not bad and they can have a new type of relationship with their new found family.

[@themarvelousmikey3512]

@@Persona_Random_ Agreed! As someone with divorced parents, I’d love to see more normalization of divorce.

[@Persona_Random_]

@Nokia Kai 👀

[@ADHDgoldfish]

Oh I used to read growthspurt alot, should probably check it out again now that I have more free time. Pretty nice series :D

[@soontobechannel743]

I agree with this so much! Toriel had no Ill intention when raising all those children it’s just love obviously isn’t enough, children need more than love when growing up and can even feel neglected even with love being received from their parents.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, and sometimes the parents aren't the most qualified to help either, and things like counseling or outside intervention are necessary- not at any fault of the parents.

[@Nintendotron64]

@@Dorked that is true. However, parents should take the initiative to at least identify the problem. Because, how else will it ever get fixed? I mean, at some point it should have crossed Toriel’s mind that “Wait a minute. This isn’t working.” and that they need help from a friend and/or professional.

[@jackthesmoltangerine]

@@Nintendotron64 Um, where would she find therapists? There is no therapist in the Ruins, and probably not in Hometown either

[@rsj2877]

​@@Dorkedlike sometimes its more likely that outsiders can notices issues that person can have faster than even close ones at times.

[@greenkingfisher]

I don't think Asriel being more keen to Chara's issues than Toriel and Asgore is indicative of them not understanding Chara, but perhaps Chara being more open to talking about their problems with Asriel than with their parents. I think Chara still loves Toriel and Asgore as family, but maybe doesn't feel like they can talk to them as freely as they can with Asriel, since he is more their age. Also, I don't think Toriel is being overprotective of Frisk in Undertale, since she doesn't know they can reload if they die. Very few players make it from the end of the ruins all the way to the neutral route ending without dying once on their first play through, so if Frisk only had one life, it would actually be the right thing to do for Toriel to try to keep them in the ruins.

[@Dorked]

Oh, I never meant to insinuate that Chara didn't love them or that Toriel and Asgore didn't love them- but rather, that Toriel and Asgore may have been blind to the more troubling signs of Chara, since Asgore in particular highlights a hopefulness that contrasts with the darker aspects Asriel got to know. And yeah, I get why Toriel did what she did- the issue is that she did so in such a way where she kept secrets and was so overprotective that she never asked much about Frisk as a person. Their interests. Why they came to Ebott. Where they were from. It was basically just, "this is your new home, I am going to make you comfortable and care for you" but without much... consideration, I guess? She meant well, and had her reasons, but it is still a bit troubling to me if you take a step back.

[@amandachristen3454]

@@Dorked She does all this 'I'll be your new guardian and care for you' stuff, but not only does she never try to actually get to know Frisk, she *never even asks for their name*. She's not a bad person, and she had good intentions, but she still did some bad stuff.

[@tarvoc746]

Toriel in Deltarune is likely also an alcoholic. There are a few hints to this, e. g. a dialogue piece by Rudy where he says he remembers Toriel regularly getting completely wasted during their college days.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, at the very least, she had days where she was more of a party animal. Whether she still drinks now is up in the air, but definitely possible.

[@tarvoc746]

@@Dorked If I remember correctly, there were hints to that too. I just can't recall what they were.

[@smcphee8499]

@@Dorked Isn’t Queen supposed represent how characters are treated by their parents. Doesn’t Queen drink around Kris?

[@bocobipbrookiebradgaming7838]

@@smcphee8499 god I do not like those implications. Toriel drinking regularly around Kris,and possibly post divorce with Asgore does not seem like a stable situation (not saying she’s violent but more verbally demanding)

[@bumbabees]

@@smcphee8499 if thats true, im going to have to take a very dim view on that. my parents used to drink around me as a child, and i remember getting so scared and hiding in my room because i didnt understand why they were acting so weird. its the reason i still get super anxious around drunk people now. its so irresponsible and shitty.

[@WarweaponPunk]

It makes a lot of sense actually. And one could argue that Flowey's soullessness isn't the cause of his behavior, like that one theory said. That also makes since considering how he got scared of Chara and even cried, regretting everything but not at the same time. I feel like, deep down, Asriel does have intrusive thoughts to hurt people to let out his confusion, anger, and overall problems, and that could stem from Toriel and Asgore not understanding him and Chara, which is why, when Asriel/Flowey realizing that Frisk is Chara(or thinks it at least), he doesn't go out of his way to hurt Chara other than in the Pacifist and Neutral runs. Also, another note, I feel like Toriel's ignorance of situations also reaches beyond parenting, since this woman legit said to Asgore, "Don't wait for people to come down, kill one person then go to the human world and kill the rest" as if that won't cause another dang war between monsters and humans.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I really think the alienation didn't help. Like, when he told Asgore who he was, Asgore probably treated him in a way he treated Asriel before he died, but that just didn't work anymore, but Flowey couldn't understand or articulate why, which probably gave him a shit ton of insecurities. Even in Pacifist, he talks about not wanting to break his parents' hearts again, so I think there's a lot to be said for poor Flowey's emotional state. Makese me wonder about DR Asriel- I think being away at college is probably really good for him so he can get some space and establish his own groove.

[@WarweaponPunk]

@@Dorked Yeah true however, that being said with the possibility that Flowey is getting Asriel's intrusive thoughts... That makes me worry for Kris in general, considering how there is the existence of the Weird/Snowgrave route. Ik the PLAYER is basically doing that but Kris is still a kid and well.. If not-so-good parenting causes Asriel to go over the edge, how could not-so-good parenting AND the influence of an otherwordly being, who's hurting people, go for Kris?

[@PrivateDaisy]

About the last sentence... Thank you! You're the only person that I saw talking about it. I thought it was such a weird line, making Toriel stupid for no reason, but maybe it's all connected to parts of her personality I didin't notice before.

[@sptflcrw8583]

@@PrivateDaisy She's not stupid, Asgore's stated goal was to wipe out humanity anyway.

[@PrivateDaisy]

@@sptflcrw8583 she said he will free them "in peace" this way

[@mary15yearsago44]

I'm so glad I finally see more people talk about Toriels and Asgores parenting. It's quite sad how Asgore and Toriel both seem to genuinely care for their children but they can't help them and dont seem to offer them any emotional support either. What's worse is that based on Charas backstory it doesn't seem like Chara even trusted them enough if they decided to hide such a huge plan from them. I also really hope we get to see them actually realize their mistakes soon, I think an improvement would be really satisfying.

[@Dorked]

I really hope Deltarune gives us that closure and catharsis that's kinda missing in Undertale due to its tragic circumstances. The DR Dreemurrs genuinely have a chance to make things better. Here's hoping!

[@DrawciaGleam02]

@mel Yeah I agree with that. Why has no one written an AU where the parents learn of the plan and stop it in time????

[@F1areon]

@@DrawciaGleam02 Seems like Chara and Asriel were just THAT good at keeping it a secret; they were the ONLY ones who knew the truth of what was going on.

[@twilight3272]

I think I finally understand why I always didn't like Toriel whereas everyone else used to fawn over her when it was just Undertale. She reminds me of my mom - not on a surface level, but on a much deeper note. She paradoxically pours all her time into being a doting mom but misses the obvious. In fact, the kids probably often deliberately obscure things from her with the thought that she couldn't handle the truth. She feels like a parental figure one has to perform around.

[@myheartismadeofstars]

So personally I think that in monsters, Mental Illness is...very rare the way humans understand it. It exists, but due to monsters generally being kind and supportive of each other, it's pretty rare to see it become overwhelming. Toriel and Asgore never really had to FACE things like that. They can't comprehend someone hating their own kind so much, like Chara, or being unable to love others (since monster souls are made of love and compassion), or even struggling with expressing themselves like Kris. (Look at the monsters that show mental illness signs outside of just...you know, the despair that comes with being hopelessly trapped: Toriel, Asgore, Sans, Alphys, and Napstablook. All of them are kinda isolated and without much support at the beginning of the game. Sans hides a lot of secrets, which is very isolating despite his surface level many friends) My personal headcanon is that Kris has something like an attachment disorder (which they are slowly recovering from, or at least showing signs of improvement due to their adventures in Dark World), and Toriel and Asgore simply were not knowledgeable enough to know that you can't just love your child better.

[@spindash64]

I can't remember if it's canon or not that losing all hope is fatal for a monster, but if anything of the sort is correct, that could likely also tie into it. It would mean that a monster with such a degree of global self hatred would be incapable of maintaining their own existence in the first place. Alphys has self loathing to be sure, but I'm talking to the degree of believing your very _existence_ is a sin

[@myheartismadeofstars]

@@spindash64 I mean...Alphys commits suicide in some endings... So maybe? It's kinda hard to know. But I believe that she still has Hope even if it's only a little bit

[@goldninjagaming9505]

I'm a little surprised that someone else is talking about the alarm clock dialogue, and I'm loving it! I don't know how well-known it is, since I only found out about it a little bit ago, but it provides a lot of fascinating characterization for the cast we didn't get to see previously. As for the video itself, it was really eye-opening. I knew that Asgore and Toriel had some issues, but I never knew how deep they went until these dots were connected. I guess that just goes to show how much thought Toby has put into these characters. I really enjoyed this video, and I can't wait to see what you have planned for the future, both for Inverted Fate and this channel!

[@Dorked]

Yeah, at some point I may do a more focused alarm clock video. I just dunno how to keep it interesting visually. xD That's the toughie when all you have are textboxes to work with! Yeah, Toby has a lot of thought in his writing. Some little details tend to get overlooked. Honestly, I just kinda stumbled to this conclusion while idly musing and then I started connecting the dots in a twitter thread and was like, "oh, I can make a video about this."

[@thegreatzucchiniidkalastna3743]

Sorry but what exactly is the alarm clock dialogue?

[@petruciosxd1374]

@@thegreatzucchiniidkalastna3743 There were and there may still be plans for an alarm clock app that features various dialogue from Undertale characters, but development had stopped so Toby released the dialogue each character has in regards to winter. Sounds like it'll still be worked on at some point, perhaps even after Deltarune, since I'm pretty sure this is from the kickstarter and he never said it's cancelled, but I'm not really sure.

[@thegreatzucchiniidkalastna3743]

@@petruciosxd1374 oh ok, that’s cool thanks

[@mafuyume]

Thank you for this analysis! It's refreshing to see someone calling out Toriel's flaws, not just calling her a 'perfect goat mama' Thank you for this! ❤️

[@Dorked]

You're welcome! I feel like Toriel is a great character, but people overlook her flaws or put her on full blast to say she's "as bad as Asgore" without like... nuance? So I tried to avoid just bashing either one of them, while still highlighting areas where they struggle as parents/parental figures.

[@doritos4956]

Yea people I have seen either think of her as an angel personified or the devil himself Thankfully dorked is really knowledgeable of these characters

[@solidmetagross]

Seeing videos like this always makes me happy. Toby must be so proud of his fans noticing every single detail he puts in his games.

[@Dorked]

Aw, thanks! :) I'm a dork who spends way too much time overanalyzing stuff like this, hehe.

[@zacklarocque2299]

I've noticed that all sharp objects in toriel's home was dulled. So she must have caught a child... Well... You know. Self harming. .... That or she experienced Chara doing that...

[@mill2712]

I definitely believe that Chara had harmed themselves with knives but personally, I think that maybe she didn't know that's what Chara was doing to themselves. If this video is any indication that they're more or less blind to mental illness, she probably thought Chara was playing with knives too much or was accident prone rather than suicidal.

[@agent3689]

@@mill2712 How did you manage to make a tragic thing even more tragic?

[@orggannick]

This is really insightful Also thanks for reminding me of how well Toby Fox handled post-pacifist Flowey in the alarm clock dialogue

[@Dorked]

No prob! The alarm clock stuff doesn't get nearly enough love. Lots of great characterization inside!

[@aresrivera9744]

One thing I would like to point out is that it’s actually heavily implied that both children in Undertale had a bias towards each Parent. Asriel to Toriel Chara to asgore The Azriel and Toriel connection is shown by the fact that after fly we couldn’t do any love from Asgore he says he went to the ruins and saw her and said “ I knew that her of all people to make me love……. she failed“ this indicates that asriel had a closer bond with toriel as he view Toriel as someone who can make him love again even above Asgore which is why he gave up on life after that. Also in Deltarune asriel gave Toriel the heart shaped locket which is an interesting point I’m surprise you didn’t bring up Now for chara and asgore there are actually tons of evidence to prove that to Chara love asgore the most. Chara made a macaroni art of a flower for asgore . Chara hand knitted sweater and to us that doesn’t seem like anything special but if you actually knitted you would know those take a lot of time and a lot of effort which is why kids are usually bored out of her mind when the mother takes them to knitting class. But chara went through all that time and effort to make for just asgore (nothing for Toriel ) And and interesting details some people don’t point out is chara’s knife wasn’t actually use for any nefarious purposes The description says “ perfect for cutting vines“ this would imply that Chara actually help asgore with gardening and shared his love for golden flower which we can see because the only other drawing they made was a golden flower. Also if chara is the narrator and is always with us in someway then it’s chara Who is playing memories of asgore telling her to stay determined. Never once did we hear Toriel whenever Chara wants to be determined they thinks of when I ask or told them. The only other memory we get that’s not Asgore is of asriel The person who Chara love the most when we’re falling down. Though it is interesting how are both the children Took the greetings of the opposite parents of me they liked as chara says a greetings and has a more formal speech while asriel got his father‘s howdy and gosh golly. Which is why I’m not saying that chara toriel tho you could extrapolate the fact that since chara was most likely abused that toriel’s strict parenting of ruling with an iron fist might have brought up those repressed feelings and asgore cuddly nature was the entasis of that . I just wanna hear your thoughts on all this. PS: Kris actually isn’t really bothered by helping Asgore as they don’t give a expression of being forced or unwilling to like to do with every other thing they don’t like. Also there’s a theory that the queen represents everyone’s mother (which makes sense) and if that’s the case queen literally shows us everything that toriel does wrong as a mother by neglecting her child’s needs and The only time a queen is shown as a alcoholic .

[@outlawfrom1899]

Thank you for this comment, I never did realise that all this time Chara could've used "the knife" for cutting vines and such. I personally believed that they just liked knives for some weird reason. I still do wonder why Chara (assuming that they are the narrator) have a knack for laughing at... questionable things. They seem to kinda laugh at the suffering of others? I don't know, maybe it's a deliberate decision to make Chara look weird? On a side note, I guess everything in Undertale does have a double meaning, huh?

[@aresrivera9744]

@@outlawfrom1899 if you read the item description of the worren daggers it says that it’s used for cutting vines meaning Chara help in the garden with asgore. Also laughing at questionable things is normal into the underground undyne laughs at her self being cut in half and slowly melting. Snow Drake’s father laughts a lot at The fact that his wife is dead and they don’t have her dust, and his Son is missing and might be dead. There’s a monster in Snowden Who is happy that you freed them because now he can finally stop smiling . Chara definitely had A strong love for Asgore especially if you think they’re the narrator. Since it also makes no sense for asgore to be the only monster that frisk can’t bring themselves to instantly kill (always bring him down to 1 Hp) it would only make sense if Chara is involved in someway.

[@outlawfrom1899]

@@aresrivera9744 Yeah it does say the knife is for great for cutting vines but I never took it literally hehe As for questionable things- I do think that monsters cope with sadness with laughter but, in my opinion- Chara was probably mentally ill. I dunno what exactly it is with Chara but I'd rather say that they were weird due to some brain damage sustained by their fall into the underground or some pre-existing psychological condition.

[@aresrivera9744]

@@outlawfrom1899 it could be that crying would get her abused in her village. Since they drew her to suicide .

[@outlawfrom1899]

@@aresrivera9744 Yup! Another good reason for Chara to act weirdly... Btw, I'm trying to deconstruct Asriel and Chara's story as it isn't directly addressed in the game. I have some projects in mind. I guess im gonna have to try to play the game as much as possible to get a clear view of what happened. But sometimes it's better to talk with people and listen to their opinions. Thank you for you time, I really appreciate it! :)

[@OctoYT]

That makes me remember that tweet Toby Fox made in 2014 or so saying he was thinking of another game he's seen after Undertale (so Deltarune) that was quote : "VERY VERY SIMILAR" to, then Deltarune, which is probably OMORI knowing he made a track for it and knew Omocat back then. That would then make a lot of sense regarding your theory pointing out the fact we could so more about Kris' mental issues situations being explored in the future now that we know Omori's plot

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I absolutely think it's Omori. There are so many parallels between the two games, especially if you contrast headspace with dark worlds.

[@bunni3492]

Another reason the buttercup plan doesn't seem to be known by Asgore and Tori can be seen in true lab where alphys' entry says something along the lines of " I don't think asgore knows about this, I don't know if he should."

[@notfloweyyt7618]

Interesting thing I noticed is the tons of suggestions Chara is self destructive and suicidal This even Toriel likely noticed because Chara says “where are the knives” and all the tools are filed down to not do any damage I think they saw Chara’s state and focused on them far more then Asriel We know Flowey CAN feel but it is hard saying he felt nothing for his parents ever as Flowey yet felt for Chara deeply says how isolated he likely was Especially around Chara who was a broken child with suggested abuse from humans Saying he a like 7 year old knows that Chara didn’t drop underground for “happy reasons” says enough to show how he got screwed up by Toriel and asgore’s likely neglect

[@glasseatingdragon]

I find Kris, both during the events of the game and before, to be a pretty interesting and relatable character. They seem to be a mix of sheltered, slightly neglected and possibly some form of neurodivergent. The most relatable thing I find about them is their parents, both really good people, and people who try to be good parents, but seem to be ignorant of the fact that their child was fundamentally different from the start. Either that or they've brushed it off as a flaw or something specific to them that shouldn't be looked into. I feel like Deltarune, with how it's presented two of its main bosses, has parenthood and your child being their own person as one of its themes. Looking back on how I played the normal route, I just felt like Kris' third, clearly batshit crazy parent. From the start, the game tells you that Kris is their own person, no matter how you try to control them. It also shows (this may be unintentional but shh) an almost adult teenager who wasn't allowed to be themself trying to be independent, even though the way they were raised now makes it incredibly hard to do anything on their own. Might have written and misinterpreted this poorly, but these are just my thoughts.

[@pastedelivery]

5:30 I headcanon that kris does indeed hold some hint of jealousy towards asriel and shame towards their self. Mainly, because kris is always held as second place under asriel, and is always subject to comparison to his big brother, as we see many moments of everyone talking endearingly of asriel, seeing him as the golden boy of the town. While kris, he’s nothing more then a shadow to his light, and perhaps only really seen and titled as “the golden boy’s little brother”, not being referred to as just… himself. They might have some shame in their self. Feeling like every action that they do will always not be enough, and how no matter what they will do will never measure up to asriel. This might be another undertone to this games common phrase “your choices don’t matter”. Because this might be how kris feels. But hey, there’s a lighter side to this. It seems like they’re slowly opening up with their friends, mainly with Susie, ralsei and only just beginning to with berdly and noelle(though since they’re childhood friends maybe they’re revealing much more to Noelle in private then seen, but idk). They’re slowly beginning to lighten up around them and enjoy learning from their choices, even if the outcome is the same. They won’t have to no longer reflect on “what if I did that” or “should I have done this”, cause that no longer matters when with their friends, cause they’ll always stick around and be on their side. Maybe that’s the lighter tone to the common phrase “your choices don’t matter”.

[@justinweber4977]

I think a big part of not recognizing, or properly reacting to, Chara's various issues and problems is... Well, monsters are eccentric as hell! Boss Monsters like Toriel and Asgore are supposedly immortal if I recall, so that's going to have a huge impact on how they see the world. And most monsters themselves have a lot of weird quirks, personality issues, or other oddities that are brushed off as "unusual" at the worst. I think it might be safe to assume that Monster psychology differs in at least a few key ways from Human psychology... And that fact is what laid the groundwork for Chara's problems to grow to where they did.

[@suicune3776]

I am glad that this is how Toriel is. Imperfections make anyone more interesting. If someone has a few flaws that they aren't willing to change because it's a part of them, often times, it doesn't make them any less lovable. Look at Susie. She's full of flaws, she's rude, she's lazy, she's got a small violence streak before she began to trust people, but she's insanely lovable. The same exists in people you know. You like them for who they are, though they have flaws.

[@CMGThePerson]

Seeing as how Kris created the dark fountain right next to Toriel. I imagine how much whiplash Toriel must feel after being put in a situation where Kris has to protect her

[@crispee_bills]

This is really good! I always thought it was weird that Chara only confided in Asriel which can't be good for both of them. Also I really hope Ch 3 will show more information about the family since it's happening inside the house.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, there's a LOT to explain still. What caused the divorce? How was Asriel impacted by it? What about Dess? What about the falling out between the Dreemurrs and the Holidays? I'm looking forward to what Toby reveals. :)

[@user-ul4on2sv4p]

I've rarely seen anyone point out flaws about Toriel, and it's quite refreshing to finally see more people talking about it since everyone is too obsessed with seeing her in a holy motherly light. Honestly, I'm not a fan of Toriel due to her treatment towards Asgore, and honestly that treatment towards him is obvious. She doesn't bother hiding her disdain towards him in front of the children (Frisk and Kris), and doesn't recognise her own flaws. A lot of people have been overlooking the fact that Toriel has a lot of pride within herself when it comes to knowledge about raising children and what's right, which can be seen in UnderTale, where she outright tells you that she knows what's best for you, as well as in the ending where she berates Asgore for his plan and claiming that he could've gone to the surface with one human soul and get the rest to break the barrier, which was flawed in its own case because that plan was already executed by Asriel and Chara and we saw what happened there, even if you claim that "but Asriel was holding Chara's body during that time" the humans would've most likely recorded that into their history and generally be afraid of monsters regardless, especially if they were to ask for human souls to break a barrier that lets out the rest of their species. And just as the video had stated and further proves my point, Toriel has already decided for Frisk to stay with her without asking them. And that is generally a problem in its own case because she didn't assume that maybe Frisk already had a family to go back to, and just immediately deciding FOR them that they will be staying with her (which is very much not okay in normal circumstances by the way). That generally showcases how Toriel has a pride problem, she thinks that she knows what's best for everyone without realising that she has issues herself. Asgore on the otherhand, while he is forgetful, he tries his best to remember what his kids like and do not like. And as previously stated, her obvious disdain towards Asgore cannot be good for the children and there's no need to explain WHY it isn't good. As for Asgore, there are differences between how the two act in believing what's right for others. Toriel is much more stubborn and firm about her own beliefs that she deems to be good for others and takes a much longer time to realise (the battle with her and her having to wait after 5 humans have died), while Asgore, as stated in the game, is much softer and will follow along if the majority agrees (near the end of the game where Undyne told him he didn't have to apologise for almost killing Frisk and he instantly went along with it). This is mostly about Toriel's issues more than Asgore, and while I recognise he has his own flaws, I'm focusing more on Toriel as it is VERY rare that anyone talks about her having problematic issues as everyone mostly attacks Asgore (which I don't understand I think that he's just as if not more lovable than Toriel). So watching this video and seeing someone talk about Toriel's issues was incredibly refreshing, and hopefully more people realise that Toriel is not the perfect character that nearly everyone deems her to be, and that she has her own flaws as well.

[@sevenmillionhobbies7840]

Asgore’s dialogue to keep the player going is the reminder that they’re the “future of human and monster kind”. That’s a lot to load on the small shoulders of a child. Pressure a child enough and they’re bound to set out and force themselves to fulfill it before they’re ready. As Chara did.

[@jackthesmoltangerine]

They would’ve oofed themselves anyway

[@silverdustedflower2496]

Considering the possibile time period Toriel and Asgore are from, it makes sense that they might not understand Mental Health.

[@39peevedturtles19]

We don't really have enough information but with how close Kris is set up to be with Asriel, like Asriel was with Chara, and how Asriel knew things about Chara that their parents didn't...I wonder if he was also the one person in the family who actually understood Kris and ended up taking on a 3rd parent role by providing the support Kris ACTUALLY needs.

[@jackthesmoltangerine]

YES, FINALLY. Someone who doesn’t assume that just because the parents are far from perfect that Asriel is an asshole

[@Asa-ov9mj]

Frankly I'm not surprised Asgore and Toriel were unable to take care of Kris or Chara in either game. As far as we know in the underground, there are no medical clinics, hospitals, or anything like that. Not even police stations. Deltarune dreemurs are better prepared sort of. But a human isn't a monster, and it's generally implied that what could drive a human to death wouldn't cause a monster to do the same. As far as I remember, only losing all their hope will actually kill them or drive them to do something they may regret

[@dihte1628]

It's possible New home has all of those things. +, the Royal guard are kind of a police team. Kind of?

[@dumpsterDeity]

I've never considered the perspective that Toriel and Asgore might not have been the best parents to their children back when they were still alive. This is eye-opening.

[@ALEXTHECAMELEON]

I kind of see Kris’s soul as a hint to self harm being a theme in both games (With Chara using butter cups to commit $u1c1de) and Toriel and Asgore just can’t see what’s right in front of them or maybe even in chapter 3 Toriel might finally see that something is clearly wrong (seeing as she might be a main character in chapter 3). My theory is that Toriel will pull Ralsei aside later on in maybe chapter 4 or 5 and ask him what he knows about the soul and tells Ralsei that she thinks it’s hurting Kris and finally is actually worried for one of her kids.

[@sanstheskeleton3279]

I really like all of your analysis of Undertale and Deltarune, keep up with the great videos!

[@Dorked]

Thanks so much! :) Hoping to stay inspired for ideas for a while, haha.

[@AlexTaylor-im4xd]

@@Dorked Inspired or not your videos are still great! Don't forget to take breaks tho, it's important to keep yourself healthy first and foremost :)

[@soggydeskchair]

Every time I see a new undertale/deltarune theory it always makes my day!

[@Dorked]

Happy to hear that! c: Hope you enjoyed.

[@brianco28]

I am so glad this video exists. When people criticize Toriel, it often seems to come from a very mean spirited angle. Same with Asgore. It's like the fandom chooses to love one and hate the other with no middle ground. This feels like it's actually treating them like, you know, _people_ rather than just coming for their throats.

[@unicornbarfingrainbows7599]

Finally someone said it. It’s like some people forget characters can be complex and flawed while still ultimately being good people.

[@leilarandall9518]

I hope these flaws are actually addressed in deltarune so these characters can grow. I love both Toriel and Asgore and I want them to get better, if not for themselves then at least for their children.

[@ffffffffffffffffffffffffffff5]

Being someone who was recently diagnosed with C-PTSD, when describing Asriel possibly having PTSD that's... actually pretty accurate. I don't feel for others like I used to and I usually just close myself off from the world, I barely talk to anyone but my partners. Hell, I have a hard time expressing myself or how I am feeling, my partners have to go out of their way to ask me how I am doing and even then, I don't really give an answer. I'm so used to being ignored and alone that having people who actually care about me is unimaginable to me but.. been trying to open up more.

[@stormy_person7530]

An excellent analysis of the flaws Asgore and Toriel have as parents. I'd like to add that when Susie comes over at the end of Chapter 2, she and Toriel get along swimmingly due to Toriel being a very loving mother figure, something which Susie clearly needs. Much like her near-obsession with creating a facsimile of her old life in the Ruins, however, she's very... _focused_ on being a pillar of stability for children to lean on, which Susie enjoys a lot, but isn't as appreciated by Kris - they're obviously a very independent child who enjoys getting into trouble and hanging out with friends, yet Toriel holds their hand to class despite them being ~15-18 during Deltarune, an act which genuinely made me wonder if Kris was in Elementary school despite her commenting that they'd be going to college soon.

[@Yuti640]

About the “laughing things off” thing, I personally know that in repeated tragedies i tend to laugh things off Of course, Undertale isn’t the epitome of true to life characters but Toby does have a good handle on writing so he may be trying to represent mental illness with Chara laughing tragedies off, and if so, then it definitely succeeded, at least from my perspective

[@azzythechristianfurry]

To laugh something off also doesn’t necessarily have to be literal. It can be a nervous habit to literally laugh at bad situations, but the saying itself isn’t meant to be literal.

[@skaithespirit1184]

This video, above all else, REALLY makes me hope that the branch of the fandom that says "The Undertale characters won't have any relevance in Deltarune's plot, they're just callbacks" are wrong, or at least partially wrong. Yeah, I doubt they'll play a role in the overarching story of The Roaring and The Knight and whatever the hell is up with Gaster, but to say that they won't be anything other than irrelevant cameos rubs me the wrong way. Especially with how miserable some of them are compared to their UT counterparts, like Asgore and Mettaton.

[@Dorked]

I definitely think that's not true, given how much importance the Dreemurr family has. You can give the UT characters importance without them hogging the spotlight entirely. A skilled writer can balance a larger ensemble. So I have faith that Toby will follow up on the plot threads he's establishing. c:

[@z794hfbw8I]

what if in the end gaster doesn't matter and he's not in deltarune at all lol

[@danielbueno8474]

Wow. This video just made me realize I wasn't the asshole I thought I was when I first played Undertale. The first time I played Undertale I actually disliked Toriel. I went in completely blind, I didn't even know about the "kill everyone/spare everyone" mechanics, I assumed it was just an RPG. So Toriel being so overprotective annoyed me to no end. I wanted a challenge, dammit, you're LITERALLY holding my hand through the puzzles! I also have an aunt that acts just like her or even worse. Her son and all of her nephews and nieces are full grown adults, yet she treats everyone as if they're just defenseless kids. Now, you might think "aww, it's so sweet that she's so concerned about her family!" Yeah, no. Not at all. Not when she basically acts like you never have any idea what you're doing, that everything you mention you're gonna do she second guesses you to make sure you really thought that through, like you don't know anything about the "evils" of the world, and that one of the uncles or aunts should always go to you whenever you set a foot outside your house. Now, she IS a sweet aunt who only wants to see her family well and healthy, and I appreciate her for that, but holy shit, thank heavens we basically only see each other at family gatherings during holidays. (The phone calls to my mom and the rest of her sisters still happen on a weekly basis to be sure everyone is well and don't need her help with anything. She's also divorced and lives alone, so there's another parallel with Toriel, I guess.) So, when Toriel challenged us at the ruins saying "if you think you're so capable, then prove yourself to me", I thought "hell yeah, Imma show you how stupid you're being for thinking I can't take care of myself." And I ended up killing her, and I felt horrible. From that point onwards, and after seeing other people playing the game and absolutely loving Toriel from the get go, I felt like I was the asshole for having such negative feelings about Toriel the first time I met her. But now I realize I _wasn't_ just being unreasonably mean towards her. Overprotectiveness does more harm than good, and I never even noticed the parallels between the extreme ways Toriel and this aunt of mine acts, and why Toriel rubbed me up in such a wrong way. The characters in Undertale/Deltarune are actually much more deep and tridimensional than they might initially look. Damn. Thank you for making this video. It really put my mind at ease about something that has bothered me for years now.

[@samgeorge1452]

I think, in part, Deltarune Toriel just kind of hopes that if she lets Kris be Kris, they'll be happy. I imagine she's somewhat understanding of how hard it has to be for Kris to go through Asriel leaving, the divorce happen, and Dess disappearing. Some of Kris's behavior is harmless enough, but others like Toriel mentioning they never hang out with friends or have a habit of disappearing or hanging out in the bathroom for a while are more worrying. She clearly worries some, but is unsure of how to help, going back to the idea that it's hard for Toriel to understand that love is not all it takes for a child to be happy.

[@ibexthemarauder]

finally an unbiased video on this always good to see your videos. keep going

[@Dorked]

That was the goal! Too often you have really harsh takes on one of the Dreemurrs, so I tried to be a bit more balanced here.

[@fifilulu5999]

You know, as much as a love my parents (and trust me, I really do love them), it's shocking just how much of what you said about Toriel and Asgore applies to them... I myself have delt with many mental health issues without my parents knowing. As a child I would spend days inside my room not talking to anyone because I barely had any friends to speak of, and they didnt even seem to notice the debilitating effect that had on me... Aaanyway~! Great video. Hope to see more from u soon!! ;3

[@RaphielShiraha64]

Fun fact if you wait long enough in the ruins after toriel says to you wait, you actually get a call from her, i don't remember exactly the call dialogue but it's something like she saying she will be busy for awhile but then a dog get her phone (probably toby) and we're forced to continue/no more dialogue happens if we wait, there's probably a video you can find on it with a simple search on youtube, would post it here but youtube delete comments with links to other videos.

[@Dorked]

I actually did that in my first run- only for a few minutes, but it was amusing. xD

[@marctaco2624]

I think to exhaust all dialogue, you need to wait a total of 20 or so minutes (excluding dialogue)

[@M4x_D4350n]

Tbh I would love for both toriel and asgore to appear in chapter 3, simply because I could definitely see Asgore rushing to Toriel's place if he found out that Undyne was going over for a percieved danger. Which would lead to Toriel and Asgore being in the dark world, and include a self dissection for both of them. (Also, I dont know if it was you or not, but there was a further dissection of Kris and Toriel's relationship under the lense of Queen. And the dissection was actually pretty interesting and really insightful into Toriel's parenting of Kris.)

[@Lightstation_]

The reluctance to understand mental health and the thought that they're love should be more than enough. They can't understand why their child is unhappy. This really reminds me on how my mom is like

[@JabamiLain]

They indeed had problems. I do believe Chara loved Asriel, but due to their abusive background, they became a twisted chid too, showing their love in an abusive manner as well. Had the Dreemurs been better parents, perhaps they wouldn't have been so impressionable with our Genocide.

[@pastelguts6182]

Watching this made me realize that perhaps, monsters _know_ that humans souls are determined and their souls persist after death, but don't _understand why_ humans are so determined. That humans are born into despair and have to push through with only their hope to keep them going. So monster parents don't know how to deal with a human child because they can't relate to that. idk at least that's my small theory

[@choboy46]

The Deltatraveler fangame's hard mode expands on Toriel's character as well: Rather than questioning why Susie is behaving so aggressively, she automatically concludes that she's after Frisk's SOUL and tries to kill her, and even when Frisk stands up for her, she doesn't stop attacking for a while. This video just makes this scene make more sense.

[@HiAgainTheNameIsStillAyle]

2 dead children and a third child that died over and over again What do you mean? They are amazing parents

[@djkj4871]

You describing toriel in this video actually made me realize why I can’t bring it in me to open up to my mom about my mental health

[@ElRegulus]

I get the impression that Toriel and Asgore didn't undergo any real trials with their family (or with each other) until the worst of them happened. But yes, I agree they might also be in denial about a few things.

[@egomaniac7230]

Toriel infantilises her children while Asgore adultifies. Both supposedly come from love but they cause a lot of harm to children.

[@mk-aka-morgan8386]

I can’t wait until we see more about Kris’s family dynamic with the Dreemurs- Asgore seems like a great guy in Deltarune and I’m super interested in seeing what exactly happened between him and Toriel.

[@sarahshock6805]

I think Frisk is to Chara _exactly_ as Flowey is to Asriel. Chara's body decomposed and became part of the flowerbed or the ground, and the player's SOUL provided the DETERMINATION needed to reanimate Chara's ESSENCE. This video has helped me to further understand this. Basically, the player acts as a _parent_ to Chara, _teaching_ them how to interact with others. The Genocide Route feeds into Chara's existing anger, so they take on their old appearance and name. The True Pacifist Route shows Chara that the world isn't all bad, so they feel like an entirely new person. They probably also doubt they could reveal their former identity to their parents, so they happily take on the new name Frisk. Both of these Routes allow Chara to create a SOUL for themself. I don't know if the other routes do the same. Flowey does not receive enough guidance to achieve the same results.

[@Dorked]

Personally, I feel like Chara and Frisk being separate people is very important. "Let Frisk live their life," plus Frisk giving their name to Asriel in the end. So I personally haven't been big on the reincarnation theory- I'm more of a narrachara kinda person, which still uses similar ideas- namely, our (or Frisk's) guidance informs Chara one way or the other if Asriel was right to show mercy or if the world really is kill or be killed.

[@sarahshock6805]

@@Dorked You got me thinking about it again, and yeah, I'm starting to get back onboard the NarraChara theory. I never disliked that theory. I can actually combine these theories, now: Frisk is a separate individual, like you said. When they fell down, their DETERMINATION somehow spread to Chara's ESSENCE within the flowers, reawakening them (as I believe was hinted at in the Genocide Route). The reawakened, Flowey-like Chara then accompanies Frisk through the Underground by basically hitching a ride on their body. It takes a very long time for a human body to completely decompose and become part of the surrounding plant life, which would explain why Chara didn't accompany the other fallen humans. This might also explain why Chara is able to overtake Frisk in the Genocide Route. Frisk's spirit is steadily weakened by all of the killing and guilt, while Chara, lacking a SOUL, isn't emotionally hindered at all. They're even reinvigorated by the simplistic goal of causing as much death as possible and increasing their LOVE, just like a kid playing a video game. The other routes don't provide the "number go up" appeal of the Genocide Route, so they don't excite the SOULless Chara as much. They do help teach Chara, though. This can further be connected to Deltarune! The player controls Frisk the same way they control Kris. The line "Let Frisk live their life" partly means that Frisk and the player are separate beings, the same way that Kris is pretty well-established as a separate being from the player. However, Kris, unlike Frisk, doesn't have a Chara to advocate for them. I just had a crazy thought that perhaps Ralsei is actually supposed to be Deltarune's Chara (he's like Asriel but obviously not meant to be him), but there's not enough evidence in Deltarune to cement this connection. Thanks for getting me to think about this again :) Also, I adore Alphys, and I'm happy to see her character getting the praise she deserves.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

This is an AMAZING analysis, and a perspective that I haven't really seen in this fandom a lot. While they seemed well-adjusted and happy to raise a well-adjusted and happy kid, they fumble when their adopted kids don't match that template. They're not negligent, certainly, but they just fail to see what they don't expect.

[@Xman34washere]

I love these games because like all of these problems could be solved with therapy

[@Dorked]

HONESTLY, THOUGH? So many of UT/DR's characters could benefit from therapy or even just practicing healthy communication, haha.

[@alzhanvoidsansado]

@@Dorked Toby Fox's message in a nutshell: Get therapy kids, or you'll end up like my characters.

[@sptflcrw8583]

Eh, I think that's kind of missing the point. No amount of therapy is going to change their circumstances. Sans, Asgore, and Flowey, among others, aren't going to improve their lives by merely changing their outlook.

[@zabbee2323]

@@sptflcrw8583 True, therapy doesn't make your problems magically disappear, but it does help you to better manage and cope with said problems.

[@sptflcrw8583]

@@zabbee2323 well, that's the thing. There really is no coping or solving their problems. For example, Sans isn't wrong to be the way he is, there literally is no point for him to do anything. Even if he were to try and make a genuine attempt to better himself, that would just be undone.

[@JabamiLain]

They indeed had problems. I do believe Chara loved Asriel, but due to their abusive background, they became a twisted chid too, showing their love in an abusive manner as well. Had the Dreemurs been better parents, perhaps they wouldn't have been so impressionable with our Genocide.

[@sylvie_loves_frogs4951]

it's a bit of the type of situation that they *have* to convince themselves that what they're doing is right, because the thought that they aren't hurts more, because it would force them to think about all the times they could've been better but weren't. it's the "i _have_ to be right, because if i wasn't, everything i've done isn't worth it"

[@para9938]

Wow, seeing a video saying everything I've been saying for years as a theorist .O. I myself always thought of the pressure put on Chara as the future of humans and monsters being a huge reason for why things went that way, not to forget that it wasn't only Asgore. If the history of humans and monsters books is to be believed, and seeing how it's said outright that Chara fell in the RUINS, the mere arrival of Chara lead to a huge difference of all monsters being like whimsuns hiding in the ruins because not daring approche one step further toward the barrier, to them moving out no longer afraid of humans and making the new capital right next to the barrier. And while it can be telling of at least some things about Chara's personality that left a good impression not only on Asgore but on monsters overall, it also reveal how much monsters overall all cared about the prophecy ; there is a reason that all monsters lost so much hope when Chara died to the point that Asgore had to reassure them despite being the one supposed to suffer the most from that lost and not them.

[@CarVr00m]

This is such a good analysis. I think it's so interesting to go deeper into the character's situations and try not to look only at the surface of things, and instead try to understand them better and look and their behaviours on a different light. I love the fact every single character in undertale can be so caring and compassionate, and yet have so many flaws. It's like you said, their love can backfire.

[@ashyunderscore]

As per usual, your analysis in this videos is awesome and incredibly thorough, and goes to show how passionate one can be about these characters, and how nuanced Toby's writing is, despite what it may seem at first glance. Asgore and Toriel not being perfect parents nor people isn't particularly news to me, but it's always nice to see a video going about it and why that is the case. Neither of them are evil or ill intended, they just have a very simplified and somewhat childish understanding of how the world works.

[@PeachSunndaetheLlama]

I never realized how DEEP this goes. This just makes me love the writing of these games even more than I did before. Great video, I can't wait for more

[@renthemen.]

"this is your knife in this empty tin, is it not?" the single line that made me feel like toriel is too negligent.

[@limbobilbo8743]

I think Asriel got along with kris in deltarune partially because he didnt see them as anything other than just his sibling. I get the feeling that almost everyone else in deltarune views kris as something. And the reason kris only seems to have been happy around asriel is because he just really didn’t care too much about what kris is/was. And part of the reason i think it’s like this is because if you do the maths Asriel is at most like three years older than kris, and I think a three year old child wouldnt view a new sibling as odd no matter what they’re like. Especially someone like Asriel that we’ve been shown. I also wonder if maybe asriel’s relatively small amount of contact with kris might be a result of toriel deciding kris needs to get better and so she’s deliberately tried to lower how much contact the two have. If i could ask toby fox a question I would ask him how long has kris had a cellphone, because what if toriel got kris the cellphone relatively recently purely to make it just a bit harder for the two of them to speak.

[@charleyboi8282]

The second I got the notification I had to click, LOVE your videos and keep up the good work!!!♥️♥️♥️

[@Dorked]

Aw, thanks so much for the kind words! :)

[@doodlehobbo8697]

I find it funny that Asgore is asking Sans for a advice.

[@holostarz]

oh my god someone is talking about this!! these two disasters!!! they TRY but that doesn’t mean they aren’t ignorant… i’ve been writing toriel and asgore as well meaning but having their fair share of parental flaws and failings for a few years now… so seeing it being talked about like this is so refreshing… cause it’s a take i BARELY see. when people focus on the flaws of these two and them learning to overcome them, they do so usually going hand in hand with their failed marriage and the two of them learning to co-exist again. people like romance and seeing a potential reconciliation romantic or platonic. fair enuf. but these are two adults with _children._ their flaws no doubt shaped the way they raised a family, and impacted their children! before they were a broken family, they were likely, in many not so obvious ways, a dysfunctional one. every family has it’s shortcomings. and when writing from the perspective of said ‘royal’ children i’ve had to think hard about what these two are like as _parents_ and you’ve laid the tea out perfectly!!! i could go on but i’m holding myself back by the scruff of my neck like a feral cat. i’ll just say that this whole damn family needs therapy. both iterations!! fr….

[@sagacious03]

This was a pretty neat look into their psyche. Really like it when you do this! Thanks for uploading!

[@OctoYT]

Thanks for that analysis that will feed me while I am waiting for UT 7th anniversary :)

[@Dorked]

Hehe, I'm glad I was able to get it out close to the anniversary. Sometimes these things work out!

[@ExplosionMare]

Having Toriel and Asgore acknowledge Kris' issues at the end and help them to work on those issues would be such a satisfying way to end the story in the future. Also, I never knew about the alarm clock dialogue until now. I'll definitely have to check it out!

[@lile3630]

You have just open my eyes, Flowey never was out of emotions he only has depression for all the traumas by charas fault, he could have feel, only if he had known of the illness

[@xxrainingstarsxx3336]

You've always been one of my FAVORITE Undertale KZbinrs!! I always get so happy when you post! 💖 Keep it up please 🙌

[@Dorked]

Aw, thank you so much! :) Hope to continue delivering quality content.

[@teokr5877]

I just wanted to correct that you don't have to have killed Flowey to get Asgore to give up his own soul, also if you listen to Floweys advice on a run where you killed someone by doing the pacifist run.

[@RottenLegacy]

It's a delight to see characters as nuanced and realistic as the Dreemurrs (or anyone else in the UT/DR cast) in any sort of media. I never exactly took the time to think about the specific issues with Asgore and Toriel's parenting, and this video kinda made me realize that they're much more similar to my own parents than I already thought; there were a couple lines in here that articulated things I'd been struggling to describe, and I think now I understand why I always found Kris relatable. Fantastic analysis!

[@catoticneutral]

8:06 "The two Toriels." the two toriels the tutorials

[@Crackers0106]

8:10 The tutorials

[@theluigifan1]

Another well-made video for the books. I love Toriel and Asgore very much but I wish the fandom looked at them with more nuance than what the text in each game shows of them. (This goes for pretty much all of the other characters but this is about the Dreemurr parents in particular) You laid out very interesting prospects that I hope get explored in later chapters, especially because there has to be a reason why we’re honing in on the family dynamic more in Deltarune versus how it was more or less subtext and context given toward the end of Undertale. Not to mention the idea of seeing what’s going on with Asriel toward the very end. I have you and JaruJaru to thank for keeping UT/DT on my constant radar because you guys both lay out such interesting discussion topics through the videos you make. So thank you, Dorked. I look forward to more video essays from you, whether it’s on Undertale/Deltarune or another franchise you’re passionate about. :)

[@Dorked]

Aw, happy to provide entertainment and interesting content, then! And yeah, I think Deltarune presents a really interesting opportunity to tell a more personal story by virtue of zooming in on a family and its history and hurdles, whereas UT's story scope was a bit less intimate.

[@eleanorbateman4317]

I always put Tale Toriel and Asgores parenting down to the fact they were a king and queen and probably had a lot of duties that may meant they didn't have the time to pay as much attention to their children as they would have like, and then once the loss occurred, toriel grew overprotective of all children in the ruins, hoping to make up for her unintentional neglect and failure with Chara and asriel. As for Asgore, I thought that he felt loss and fault for his family falling apart and being lost due to his role as king, and thus his grief took over as anger fir the humans who most likely caused Chara to seek death at Ebbot etc

[@someroboticpizza]

to the people who are using this video to bash toriel and asgore as characters: UNDERTALE is a game where the characters are supposed to be flawed and i can understand why you don't like a certain character, but just keep in mind that they have flaws on purpose.

[@TheWanderingTaco]

Really nice video, you even did the chapters AND the captions. you are SO GOOD.

[@abbys5907]

Man I’ve rewatched this video so much. I love it and love your analysis

[@PR0XYL1NK]

gosh, this video is so well written. thank you for making this!

[@SilveeYT]

Dorked, thank you so much for working to create the subtitles for this video. :)

[@ConvoBreaker]

Something I noted to myself about the lack of anything in Kris' room, is probably because they've already reset a few times. Remember, on a brand new save file (not one you've erased) Kris already has a save file with 0:00 on it. I believe there was/is a dark world a while back, probably timed next to something (at least perceived as) traumatic, and that's when this save file goes back to. So Kris can't be bothered to care anymore due to the resets they've had to do for some reason, and Toriel can very easily rationalize it as "I just need to let them have time to cope with it, it happened when they were very young after all" as to why her parenting hasn't worked very well ontop of her just not knowing what to do. So she lets them do dumb things.

[@friendlinessclaritin]

Great video, I love your character analyses! I would love to see a Flowey/Asriel one someday too if you're up to it

[@unclaimedusername6608]

Man I'm just glad SOMEONE is willing to call out toriel in any manner. I haven't even watched the video yet but seeing her name in the title gives me hope that I'm not the only person to see that she's kind of a shitty person (at least in undertale. We know absolutely fuckall about DR Toriel)