Tour of Symbol Layer in "Glorious Engrammer" keymap for Glove80

[@jonathanrodriquez3775]

This is very well thought out! Don’t have a glove 80 but do have a split keyboard. Will def adjust my layout to resemble this. What a gem

[@en3sis]

I've got my Glove80, and the first thing I did was try to create something like this. Luckily, I decided to explore a bit and found your video. There's always someone smarter than you who has probably already done it. Thanks for sharing!

[@borislavgalchev]

I'm waiting for my glove80, and this is awesome!

[@benfrainuk]

Thanks for this. Really enjoyed seeing how you have addressed the various problems. You have inspired me to take a good look at my own symbol layout and see how it can be improved 👍👍👍

[@dachd]

I went from HHKB default to glove80 with your layout. It breaks my head, I hope I'll push through and wont loose my job in the process :D great job, it all make sense

[@VincentAuger]

Whoa! Thank you for doing such a fantastic job documenting your keymaps! Impressive. Your website and interactive guides are just brilliant. I'm going to try to use them now. I'm surprised MoErgo doesn't link to your work as an advanced configuration example.

[@adamdrake39]

This looks amazing. Having just got my new Glove80 I will definitely be using these keymaps. Thankyou for making these extremely helpful resources.

[@splodys]

How did it go? any thoughts so far? Planning to do the same!

[@Mikenight120]

I am desperately waiting for my glove80 to arrive. Neovim is my blood and the fact you made a symbol layer with vim motions and coding in mind is beautiful. I will study this over and over until the keyboard arrives!

[@11WicToR11]

same ...its crazy how they say it can take up to 4 weeks. ... you can order a car delivered faster. Waiting is killing me :X

[@PaulSebastianM]

OMG, this makes so much sense! I would have had to spend a ton of time to reach the same conclusions!

[@williamseipp9691]

There I did it, flashed the .uf2 and put in the last key. This is intimidating for sure but I was convinced because I trust in your experience with many of the same tools I use. It's the same reason I got the glove80, I saw that a lot of people had tried other keyboards that were good but something about the glove80 made it their "endgame" keyboard. So here goes nothing... thanks!

[@dv_xl]

Any update on your use of this?

[@samlaki4051]

gem of a video. convinced me to get a glove 80

[@haxguy0]

Cool video, thank you

[@flokkq7931]

recently got a glove 80 and since i like optimizing every part of my dev environment i thought lets give a custom keyboard layout a try. And HOLY SHIT im just about 7 minutes into this video and this is genuinenly the coolest thing ever. The compatabilty with (n)vim is insane. Relearning how to type is not going to be fun though :/

[@goobensteen]

Great work, sir!

[@Samuel-di8tx]

Really amazing work. As a heavy vim user, my mind has mapped the right hand as the “movement-hand” since hjkl is on the right. Would be interesting to see this layout on the right hand rather than the left.

[@lollllloro]

Wanna hear something cursed? I exclusively use vim, but since I switched off qwerty and lost the usability of hjkl, I just put the arrow keys on the right hand home row in a layer and to this day, I mostly use arrow keys in vim and need to use both hands to press any of them since they are in a layer behind left thumb modifier (for some reason I made the same, one-handed right thumb modified keys home pgdn, pgup, end instead of the other way around, and yes, I also use these in vim instead for caret, ^D, ^U, dollar). Neither key set has aliases, either.

[@akxlphotos]

Thank you! I’m waiting for my Dygma Defy but I already created a version of your symbol layer for it.

[@dwayladallas3375]

Thank you!

[@tandlose]

13:26 nice

[@Hoggins]

Dude I love this!

[@television6768]

Hi Sun ☀️ I love your symbol layer! You’re a genius and very inspiring! I watched this video so many times 😝 I’m a programmer and am saving up for Glove80, but I can’t wait to start using your design. Do you happen to have a keymap with symbol layer for traditional keyboards? If not, what should I do with the symbols in the thumb cluster? I want to start building my muscle memory for when I finally get my hands on Glove80.

[@sunaku_]

Hey, thanks for the kind words and enthusiasm -- I hope this layout serves you well. I don't think there's much you can do to train your thumbs on a traditional row-staggered keyboard (such as on a laptop) but I suppose you can practice the movements with your imagination on a physical printout of the Glove80's top-down 2D view (which can be found in the "Typing with Glove80" section of the Glove80 User Guide)... kind of like "shadow boxing". All the best.

[@tokisuno]

levels of tism i dream of reaching one day

[@EtherealDoomed]

Oh, hey, I ran into you in Reddit. Great vid!

[@tearsinrain2049]

Awesome! you help me a lot, thanks

[@NicholasAngelidis1]

thanks for sharing this! really helpful!

[@linkarzu]

Wonderful video, thank you very much, I ordered a glove80 and I'm waiting for it to be delivered. I use neovim as my text editor, so this will be quite useful. How do you handle scenarios in which you have to type in your laptop without an external keyboard for example, is it painful to try to remember?

[@sunaku_]

In my experience, the physical "feel" of the Glove80 is different enough from a laptop keyboard that your brain will just activate the appropriate keyboard "device driver" in your muscle memory automatically -- you may not even notice the difference! Also, it's not a zero sum game: QWERTY will forever remain a part of you (for better or worse), so learning the symbol layer in my keymap won't automatically erase your muscle memory of where ^ and $ are located on the number row of your laptop keyboard, for example. More generally speaking, when I'm editing in Vim, I think mnemonically (change, yank, delete, and so on) rather than relying on rote position-based muscle memory. So again, switching to a new keyboard layout isn't as impactful because I would still be thinking in terms of those mnemonic operators and tapping the corresponding keys at their new location in the new keyboard layout. Your brain will adapt -- Neuroplasticity for the win!

[@linkarzu]

@@sunaku_ Appreciate you taking the time to respond. Is the layout you show in the video still current or have you made updates? I'm planning on using it but wondering where to find the latest data, is it on your website or github?

[@enterusername7746]

This video makes me wanting a Glove 80-

[@balintgg]

🙏

[@larditard]

Great video!

[@Pawnlust]

Interesting! Do you consider this optimal for writing a lot of text in general (such as for a novel)? If not, what's good for that kind of task?

[@sunaku_]

Yes, the Engram layout is very well optimized for English: refer to its benchmarks at engram.dev/#scores where its efficacy for typing novels like Alice in Wonderland, screenplays such as Memento, tweets, blogs, spoken dialogue, chats, computer programming source code, etc. are all analyzed.

[@andrew15_5]

1:35 it looks like you did this gesture only for the video, because thumb cluster is for thumb only and not for the index finger. There is also probably no reason to lock the layer when you normally type.

[@sunaku_]

Both thumb clusters have Lower keys, so you can hold Lower with the left thumb while the right thumb taps the Symbol layer key if you wish to use only thumbs for thumb clusters. Yes, for normal typing, you won't really need to lock the layer. It's mainly intended for cases where you need to access a layer for extended periods of time, so locking allows your thumb to rest. For instance, I lock the Number layer when performing numerical data entry, and the Cursor layer when playing a game like "Epistory" that uses the arrow keys for movement.

[@andrew15_5]

Oh, so the base layer has mirrored keys? I haven't looked at it yet and it wasn't shown in the video. But it's good to know that there is an easier way to lock the layer.

[@sunaku_]

Yes, refer to the interactive layer map for an overview of all the layers in my keymap: sunaku.github.io/moergo-glove80-keyboard.html#layers

[@khanhcaoquoc4283]

Which keyboard layout are you using? I do search for colemak, dvorak, workman, halmak, and none of them looks like yours 😂 Btw, your keymap looks amazing, I'm waiting for my glove80, and I'll definitely try your keymap

[@sunaku_]

This is the Engrammer layout: my programmer-friendly adaptation of Arno Klein's Engram 2.0 layout. See github.com/sunaku/engrammer for more information.

[@khanhcaoquoc4283]

@@sunaku_ thank you for such amazing work creating and sharing this keymap 😃

[@deonbrewis8876]

How do the modifier keys work on your LDWV row? Is it only for modifying the symbol layer keys? Or do you use it to type things like Alt+Tab and Ctrl+Enter?

[@sunaku_]

It's the former: they're meant to modify the symbols on the opposite hand -- not for combination with same-hand keys. This convention comes from the legendary Miryoku system, which places home row mods on every layer for use with keys on the opposite hand, according to proper touch-typing technique. In this case, I deviated from Miryoku's consistent design for my Symbol layer by moving the prescribed home row mods to the upper row (since I rarely use them to modify symbols) because the home row is a far more convenient location for the frequently used Spacegram operators instead. For Alt+Tab, there is a dedicated key on the Cursor layer's thumb cluster as well as the regular home row Alt + thumb Tab available on the base layer. Similarly, Ctrl+Enter is also available on the base layer. I will demonstrate and explain these in further detail my next video on the topic of home row mods. Stay tuned.

[@Lakster37]

Is there a reason you put most of the symbols on the left hand rather than the right? I'm new to alt layouts, but one of the ideas I remember seeing is to put more usage on right hand since most are right handed. Wondering your thoughts on mirroring the layout (with maybe some swaps so any left/right pairs remain the correct dire). Been wondering about this for Engram in general, with all of the vowels on the left hand, rather than the right, and if it's make sense to mirror it instead.

[@sunaku_]

Great questions! 🤔 I think the main reason I prefer having symbols on the left half of the keyboard is that it allows inward rolls to follow the left-to-right reading order of the English language. For example, this convention allows the zero-arity function call sequence "();" to be typed in the same order as how it appears on the computer screen. In contrast, if this sequence were to be placed on the right half of the keyboard, we would need to mirror it, rather unintuitively, as ";)(" in order to benefit from inward rolls. As for handedness, the characteristic placement of all vowels on the left hand in both the Engram and Dvorak layouts improves hand balance for English, where nearly every other letter is a vowel -- that's the basis of the *hand alternation* concept set forth by Dr. August Dvorak in his groundbreaking research & layout. Moreover, a left hand vowel cluster can be further balanced by placing the spacebar on the right thumb (which I naturally prefer anyway since I'm right-handed) because spaces are another frequent occurrence, following the end of nearly every word. In fact, spaces are so prominent that they warrant special handling via the "spacegram operators" discussed in this video. Nevertheless, you can certainly mirror and customize a layout if that's what works best for you. In particular, there are alternative (more reachable or ergonomic for some people) placement options for ZQ and BV in the Engram layout, as discussed on the Engram discussion forum, at github.com/binarybottle/engram/discussions/68#discussioncomment-7835622 In fact, I know someone suffering from RSI who prefers mirroring the Engrammer layout left/right and also swapping ZQ with BV and placing BV on the bottom row's index fingers, like the "Engram ZQu BVb" variant. This is a very long response by KZbin standards 😅 but I hope it helped to answer your questions. 💁‍♂️ Come join us in the "Glorious Engrammer" thread of the Glove80 discord to discuss further, at length. 🖖 Cheers.

[@GrizikYugno-ku2zs]

Your explanation for why you put all the vowels in one place is the most programmer thing I ever heard and I love you now

[@GrizikYugno-ku2zs]

An interesting project might be making a japanese layout. It would only have 16 keys, with 5 of them vowels. You could get something crazy optimized.

[@simplepostman2034]

That's just awesome! The best symbol layer I've seen so far. After studying o lot of layouts, this symbol layer looks very thoughtfully designed. As a vim user myself, it's just exactly what I was looking for! What switches do you have in your Glove80? I'm trying to choose if trying the lightest ones (35g) is actually usable or it's too light in practice. I know that's very subjective and depends on the personal biology, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

[@sunaku_]

I chose the 50gf Kailh Choc v1 Red switches for this keyboard because they're the closest match to the 50gf Gateron Milky Yellow Cap V2 switches I enjoyed in my previous Dactyl keyboard. 🟨 I have also tested the lighter 35gf Pro Red switches on another Glove80 but felt they were too light: they're a lot like MX Red switches (which I also didn't prefer in past experiments) in terms of weight, sound, and recoil. 🍃 In contrast, the regular Reds on the Glove80 feel more like MX Yellow switches (which I really enjoy), in the same terms. So it seems that I'm just a 50g 🟨 fan; simple as that! ️🤩 However, I would definitely recommend the Pro Reds for those suffering from RSI 🕊️ or wanting a low-force "gaming keyboard" experience similar to MX Reds. 🕹️

[@simplepostman2034]

@sunaku_ Thanks for the detailed answer, really appreciate it! I've also decided to go with the regular 50gf Reds (even though I was very tempted by the White Clickies). I don't have an extreme RSI where I can't type because of pain, but after using laptop keyboards for over a decade, I've developed constant feelings of tiredness and soreness in my hands. From my research, the most important factor is not the key resistance (of course if we are not talking about 60+gf) but rather the bowl-like shape (keywell). I hope that I've made the right decision Btw, I've just finished reading your article on Arno's Engram 2.0 keyboard layout. Looks fantastic and makes me doubt if it's worth switching to it from APTv3 by Apsu (it's based on MTGAP which I like a lot).

[@lollllloro]

Boy does this make me feel inadequate. Three years ago I just put all of my brackets on the row below home, opening on left and closing on right: pinky less than, ring curly, middle square, index parentheses The rest are an amalgamation of rest of the symbols haphazardly thrown into what symbols the number row had on a standard keyboard, but shifted one row down for ease of use but remains glaringly non-optimized compared to this video. I wish I had seen something like this three years ago or at least made myself put more thought into symbols instead of rushing forward with too much excitement.

[@PVUIM]

How would you recommend learning this symbol layer as a new user of the glove80 who is also learning true touch typing for the first time? I spent most of my previous time typing with one hand (left) that did majority of the work (about 55-60 WPM with low accuracy) but after receiving my glove80 a week ago I have been trying to build better habits around touch typing correctly. I have been struggling to get used to the base letter typing (averaging about 30-35 WPM after a week) but I am needing to program every day for work and feel like I'm underwater and having to spend too much time thinking about what I want my hands to do on the keyboard. I want to also learn Vim and incorporate that eventually but I feel like I'm so overwhelmed trying to do things on this glove80 that I get really stressed out. Do you have a good method for getting acclimated to this kind of keyboard and what do you suggest for learning things efficiently?

[@sunaku_]

KeyBr is a great tool for learning to touch-type (in any layout) since its training regimen focuses on English letter frequency as opposed to traditional "fjfjfj" memorization drills: you start with the most frequent letters and gradually work your way up to the rest of the alphabet as you gain & demonstrate proficiency. And if you're learning an alternative layout such as Engram/mer, you can hide the built-in keyboard graphic in KeyBr (under the gear icon on the top-right corner of its user interface) to instead display your own layout diagram alongside the training window, as a reference while typing, if you prefer. Personally, I've always jumped in headlong (i.e. switched "cold turkey") into learning a new layout because I feel that, because there's no going back, it's easier to resolve myself mentally and commit to keep moving forward through the learning process to achieve minimum working-level proficiency. However, this may not necessarily be practical depending on what's at stake (i.e. your job performance), so you may instead consider a more gradual approach, like practicing for a fixed amount time (say, an hour) each day. Either way, the first few days with a new layout (whether logically switching between alpha layouts or physically from row-staggered to split/columnar) will require more concentration as you're building new muscle memory. But thankfully, it's just a matter of time and you'll soon be typing on auto-pilot. In general, proficiency takes practice, and practice takes time (especially sleep, when your brain can more freely optimize & commit the neurological pathways you're forming while training). So the more effectively you train over time, the more quickly you can achieve proficiency. You can make your practice more effective by following the "deliberate practice" method and using mnemonic aids (e.g. "ET"=PhoneHome, "CN"=China, "KR"=Korea, etc. are opposing pairs on the same fingers on opposing hands in the Engram layout) as well as the spatially mnemonic layout of "^$", "#*", and "?/" opposing Vim operators in my Symbol Layer (as explained in this video). Finally, know that you're not alone on this journey -- there are many others who, inspired by all this, have taken the (one giant) leap: come join us in the "#glorious-engrammer" channel of the Discord channel for the MoErgo Glove80 keyboard to discuss further. Cheers!

[@PVUIM]

@@sunaku_ I appreciate your detailed response! Would you recommend getting used to the base layer and symbol layer before diving into learning Vim bindings for programming, or just slugging through it all at the same time?

[@sunaku_]

Yes, that's a sensible plan! 👍 Vim can be learned later on, or independently, and there's a lot to learn there as well. 🖖 Specifically, the modal editing language that Vi/Vim/NeoVim provide is very powerful and game changing. It's essentially a Domain Specific Language for text editing, complete with operators (change, delete, etc.) that combine with text objects (words, lines, sentences, paragraphs, blocks, etc.), motions (going upto/onto X number of text objects before/after the cursor), locations (marks, jump history, navigation history even across different files), and macros to automate everything thereof. This is the killer feature of the Vi family of text editors, in my mind. Check out this talk for more information: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rZ21ZpqPmZuoo5I

[@sunaku_]

Keyzen3 is another great tool for learning a new layout: "If you select monogram, this tool will work a bit like keybr, except it only does one word at a time. It has the same benefit as keybr of training slower letters without the issue of getting stuck on a single letter." according to a recent discussion on Reddit r/KeyboardLayouts.

[@DavidStarkers]

Brilliant, will adapt

[@ukaszwolenczak5590]

i don't get this dual space function , how does it handle typing space and switching to layer, this is not explained.

[@bacontf2]

Hi, I use this layout. Essentially for keys like space, it doesn't send the signal for a space until the key is released. That way if you hold it down for a combo it doesn't send the space signal, and if you hold it down past a certain time (which is configurable), it won't send a space at all. If you want to hold one of these keys down and have it repeat, you tap, release, then hold. It takes some getting used to but it becomes second nature pretty quickly 👍

[@jarodtaylor]

Bro, you have RZA as your channel image, so I know I'm listening to the Abbott!

[@ridrox]

I need your suggestions. Please Tell me which keyboard I should take between these two, "Moergo Glove80 or ErgoDox EZ."

[@sunaku_]

I've used the ErgoDox EZ for 6 years and the Glove80 for 1+ year and I would wholeheartedly recommend the Glove80 for its improved ergonomics, programmability, and portability. See my review for more information: sunaku.github.io/moergo-glove80-keyboard.html#review Cheers.

[@ridrox]

​@@sunaku_ thank you so much

[@johnjohnjohnjohn2]

You blew f$&@ing my mind. Thank you

[@awesomedavid2012]

One criticism, #! is a same-finger bigram when typing shebangs. Not really a big deal, but not optimal for a lot of bash or shell scripting.

[@sunaku_]

True. To avoid that same-finger bigram, I find myself rotating my hand slightly to the left and tapping ! with my ring finger.

[@GrizikYugno-ku2zs]

Why do you use such strange names for the return type arrow in Rust and the arrow the LSP uses to ruin (make inline) my match statements in Rust?

[@sunaku_]

Those are American colloquialisms: "bang" instead of exclamation mark, "hash" instead of octothorpe, "hat" instead of caret, "star" instead of asterisk, etc.

[@jameswainwright5217]

how long does it take to learn such a layout? i am struggling with the base qwerty alone

[@sunaku_]

According to my notes, I had reached ~50 WPM after 1 week, ~60 WPM after 2 weeks, 70+ WPM after 4 weeks, and 100+ WPM after 2 years (but that's only because I hadn't tamed Home Row Mods yet via my custom QMK firmware patch [1] yet, so I was pegged at around 70 WPM by accidental HRM misfires). But in general, if you practice typing with a layout agnostic tutor such as KeyBr.com (which is based on English letter frequency, as opposed to the traditional practice of physical layout based drills such as "asdf" and "fjfjfj") then your learning rate ought to be maximized since you'll be practicing the most frequent letters and subsequences right from the start -- so you'll feel more productive sooner. I've also found that it helps to be able to write down the layout on a piece of paper: each row has only 4 letters anyway (except for the outliers Z and Q), so it chunks very well into human memory's working capacity of about 5-7 items at a time (according to something I read in general science news). Writing (and presenting or teaching -- per Feynman) brings together different memory subsystems and solidifies knowledge in a holistic way. If you're a visual thinker like I am, this may help you immensely. Draw the layout, make interconnections between related letters, and you'll be set. For example, a user @jlangstrom came up with a novel mnemonic system where he would associate opposing pairs of letters per finger with words in English as well as his native language: "I remember the two characters by thinking that they are short hands. CN (china) KR (Korea) IS (Ice in Swedish) ET (E.T phone home) and so on." In short, it takes time for typing in any new keyboard layout to become fully automatic. But there are tricks to speed up the learning process. Cheers. [1] sunaku.github.io/home-row-mods.html

[@jameswainwright5217]

@@sunaku_ excellent run down! Thanks very much

[@a.s.vanhoose1545]

Based

[@sunaku_]

I had to look up what that means... 😂 Thank you for the compliment!

[@lpanebr]

I really like this design. It's too bad I don't have enough keys! 😂😂

[@truthssayer1980]

Amazing! I am using your symbol layer on the Kenisis Advnatage360 pro. I switch to it using tap dance on the page up key - 1 tap = momentary layer switch, 2 taps = to layer. If I had a glove80, I'd download your entire layout and try it.

[@tswdev]

What font are you using? I am enjoying it at that font size.

[@sunaku_]

There are two fonts shown in this video: "Recursive Mono Casual" for the Vim examples, and "Fira Code" for the coding demonstration.

[@tswdev]

@@sunaku_ Thank you. Recursive Mono Casual looks awesome. I never heard of it. Very nice!

[@guozhangliew7302]

Can you share this config?

[@sunaku_]

Yes, the link is in the video description: github.com/sunaku/glove80-keymaps

[@andrew15_5]

Looks pretty sick. Gotta check this out. I use Neovim btw.

[@slajmlord3211]

What font is that?

[@sunaku_]

There are two fonts shown in this video: "Recursive Mono Casual" for the Vim examples, and "Fira Code" for the coding demonstration.

[@andrew15_5]

Fira Code FTW!

[@laughingvampire7555]

The Terminal Programmer? is being a programmer an ailment that will end our lives?

[@wazreacts]

44 too many keys for my liking.

[@GrizikYugno-ku2zs]

What in the world is this keyboard layout? You make me feel insecure as a hipster who uses Colemak international.

[@sunaku_]

This is the Engrammer layout: my programmer-friendly variation of Arno's Engram 2.0 layout. See github.com/sunaku/engrammer for more information and sunaku.github.io/engram-keyboard-layout.html for my experience with using Engram for the past 3 years.

[@igmanfermont513]

Don't like it, remapping the mind is more complex than moving keys around.

[@Montagic]

It’s only complex for a week and then it becomes muscle memory. All new skills are “remapping the mind” so by that logic, learning is more complex.