Town of Salem 2 NEW All Roles Tier List

[@PipeTron]

Ideal coven lineup CL, Rit, Witch, Conj = CL, Rit, PM, Conj

[@Linkshadow-fv7tv]

My ideal coven lineup is cl rit (pm/witch) hex

[@bunkermanbunkerman9724]

when will you stop splitting transforming roles it makes 0 sense as you are rating half a role not the actual role, on the best coven id go CL, rit, hex, necro, to me necro seems much better than pm/witch since he can kill without necronomicon very often while pm straight up cant and witch is usually trickier than necro, abd the alternate win conidtion of hex is very much worth having imo

[@bossender3536]

Pm reveal and ritualistic is op.

[@-psilo-9071]

​ I agree it makes no sense to rank them ws their own roles

[@bossender3536]

Ritualist*

[@ntsikayomzimbebe2056]

A nice buff for Vigi would be to make their last bullet a powerful attack - like a “a silver bullet”. It makes successful vigis more powerful in the endgame

[@chilloverliz]

Oh that's do sound really cool!

[@trollofduty007]

I like that. Or maybe upon getting a successful kill on a Non-townie, their remaining 2 attacks are powerful

[@Rogeryoo]

I wonder how viable it'd be if the vigi made their next shot a powerful attack if they shoot someone who doesn't die. Say, for example, you shoot an immune role, they don't die, the vigi then loads a powerful bullet the next night if they shoot the same target to ensure they die. If they decide on someone else or if said target dies, it'd be a normal bullet anyways.

[@claiminglight]

This is really good idea.

[@roachhy]

What about an option to use all 3 bullets at once to do powerful instead

[@Brythnoth_of_the_Void]

If they want to buff war I had a fun idea: When war comes to the town; all non-apocalypse roles loses their regular abilities; and instead gains a powerful attack at night; and apocalypses gain powerful defense; to both allow the NA’s a chance to push ahead; and also serve as a potential distraction for War.

[@0ceanking]

I love the idea of War's appearance encouraging town and coven to start slaughtering each other at night.

[@Zergling.]

Oh god that feels really chaotic, but i think too much, like the idea but instead make that happened only 1 day and night, so the day war comes to town all abilities get disable that day so no pros or conjurer and during that night the same and they get the attack but only during that night.

[@Keldiur]

I think basic attack would be enough as most people with Basic defense are lets call thrm "Warriors" already in War's eyes. Or perhaps give everyone +1 attack. It would just be nice for other NAs to survive. Or perhaps allow BG and Jest to use vests on those nights. It would just act like a discount famine.

[@MrCreepday]

That feels like a whole another role, like Conquest.

[@SirenPandaSabo]

​@@MrCreepdayConquest, believe it or not, is the other name for Pestilence.

[@ntsikayomzimbebe2056]

The veteran’s lower kill rate is because of the higher proportion of astral visiting roles in TOS2

[@Underworlder5]

also, they can be roleblocked now, meaning poisoner hard counters them. finally, as another comment pointed out, there are not as many conflicting evils, so veteran is less likely to be visited by multiple evils in the same night

[@Lamadon_Pyreus]

Definite nerf.

[@LazoGT]

@@Underworlder5 a veteran being able to be roleblocked is actually dumb. if my paranoid ass was on alert to shoot anyone i saw i dont think i'd hold off on shooting the local tavern keeper wanting to get me blackout drunk.

[@kitsicles111]

⁠@@LazoGTthe veteran is a canonical alcoholic I guess

[@Claricio]

Yo if you do a tier list in the future, I’d recommend combining the NA “half-roles” together just bc you don’t get Death as a role. The strength of the half role is affected by how good their transformation is and is an important factor in how fun the role is to play!

[@buwompstomp]

they are different roles with different abilities. that's like putting all the town roles on the same tier as amne because amne BECOMES any town role logic 0

[@Claricio]

@@buwompstomp I’d consider a tier list represent the appeal/strength of the role that you receive at the beginning of the game. If i get soul collector at the beginning I’m not like “shoot i got an F tier role” because i know if i get to death i will likely win

[@elifia]

@@buwompstomp That's not even remotely the same thing. The apocalypse roles and their transformations are inherently tied to each other. You can't play those transformations without playing as the untransformed version first, and the whole point of the apocalypse roles is to become a specific transformed version. You can play town roles without ever having been amne, and amne is not tied to any specific town role.

[@cmck362]

@@buwompstomp With that kind of backwards logic arso should be split into two ranks because dousing and igniting aren't the same ability. It makes no sense to split transforming roles up. Pest infects people for a reward. Arso douses people for a reward. Because one is classified as a 'transforming' role its got two different rankings? What if arso turned into a different role called 'Fire' after enough people were doused and could ignite them. Would that warrant a split rank? Just because a content creator did something doesn't mean it's not idiotic.

[@NicoTheCinderace]

@@buwompstomp 🤡

[@viktor8552]

I think Jester should be S+, because the mere existence of jester makes the voting phase extra interesting and has everyone think twice before voting

[@Genericmug]

Not really honestly I always vote ppl even if they act jester unless they're really obvious

[@domokun2517]

Some thoughts on how to make Coroner and Amne more fun and impactful. Coroner: First of all I'd make Coroner able to find real roles of people. When you autopsy a dead player, you can find the role and will of those turned to stone, as well as the real role and will of those altered by an enchanter. Amne: Make it neutral again, however make it keep the random element. On night 2, into Day 3 you will remember a random role among those in the graveyard. No alert will be given when an amne remembers. This could let you be a replacement NA, a 5th coven if one days, a replacement town power, or even an NK, jest, or exe. It avoids the kingmaker scenario as you will always transform on a specific night, and you don't choose who you become. This could also help extend games and give a faction some comeback power.

[@TheOmegaXicor]

maybe have a random chance to do nothing (Like if you have three dead on N2 then you have a 20% chance to become each role and 20% to do nothing, then you won't become those roles) that way there can be an an=mne later in the game when the confirmed roles die, more fun than the one person who dies n1 is what the amne becomes.

[@Underworlder5]

@@TheOmegaXicor i can imagine that one-in-a-million game where amne remembers death and nukes town from nowhere. of course it would be way too unlikely to balance the game off that, but it would be funny if it happens

[@TheOmegaXicor]

@@Underworlder5 "phew we are safe from the apocalypse now we can hunt for..." "The Amnesiac has transformed into Death, Horseman of the Apocalypse! Woe be upon the Town!" "oh no..." 😂

[@jasonsmith1950]

I think one way Coroner could be changed would be to have the Coroner detect effects on players that they autopsy (similar to a spy's bug, but for dead players with information revealed at the start of the night). So it could be able to detect players who were enchanted, role blocked, doused, hexed, had their soul collected, etc. And then it could reveal any ways the checked player affected the corpse.

[@TheOmegaXicor]

@@jasonsmith1950 I don't think that would help too much, but it would be an interesting improvement. It would make it more useful but I don't know if it would be more fun.

[@PurplePerpetrator]

Here's my idea about Veteran. In ToS 1, there was Mafia, Coven, NK, NC, and a whole lot of roles for each of them. You could have a Mafioso+Janitor combo walk into you, a PM, a Vampire and Jugg. Boom, 6 kills. But now, since theres only two factions. (Not counting Apocalypse as unique) If an enchanter walk into you. The coven know and thats it. No more kills. I feel like theres less random chance for a different faction to happen to walk into you, and less of a reason to go and kill you. Because of Rit or Doom. If you have any feedback, write it in the comments below.

[@mejhdhhicbfshihids652]

I also think there’s just a smaller percentage of visiting roles compared to TOS1

[@811misanthropy3]

@@mejhdhhicbfshihids652 that and now most of them from TOS1 in TOS2 do astral visits, especially town roles

[@muffinkuchen1113]

also what I think adds to all of that is the Roleblock, if they know you are vet and have a pois (in terms of coven) the Pois and the Coven Killer will both go on you, you die and get no kills, 2 of 4 NAs tend to dont visit at all (SC and PB) and you cant KIll a Pirate anymore also Vet isnt UNique anymore so everyone is aware there could be more then one vet so they are less likely to just random kill someone who may been active but never claimed/ claimed TK, but still most vet kills are townie kills

[@Underworlder5]

@@muffinkuchen1113 and on top of all that, there is also ritualist to deal with. a confirmed vet is just not a threat to coven if they got the right roles

[@muffinkuchen1113]

yeah Necro Rit PM+CL Witch-WItching-into-vet Pois Conj(even so you could count it as a waste) PM+HM it all counters vet. Vet went from all powerfull to just a good role

[@vulpeiren]

"Killing people is fun, who's kidding who?" - Pipetron 2023

[@giovarlin_31]

"you can stop the ritualist from ritualisting" - Also pipetron

[@hi123452008]

Shouldn't split up the Apocalypse roles into pre- and post- transforming. Baker/Famine etc are the same role, they should never be in different tiers.

[@Linkshadow-fv7tv]

Agreed the build up stage is what balances the roles

[@Zergling.]

Its list and reasoning is more about how you feel playing each role, he splits both of them because you can play both, by themselves they kinda suck, yes they are balanced like that but for the Pipe list does not matter, they different roles and you impact and feel different when you are baker or famine for example. Ask yourself do you feel your impact and fun changes when you transform? if yes then you rate both roles, not together, in my view Pipe feels like this.

[@buwompstomp]

they are different roles with different abilities. that's like putting all the town roles on the same tier as amne because amne BECOMES any town role logic 0

[@bunkermanbunkerman9724]

@@Zergling. by that logic he should rate WW that kills 6 people N2 in a different category than WW that gets PMed N1 and then conjured D2 and then an average WW game as 3rd role cause all of them feel very different even more so than avearge berserker vs average war the list is all about balancing pros and cons and here by splitting the roles he removes big part of the cons for 1 half and big part of the pros for the other part, and yes amne should be rated with what you usually transform into in mind so it should be below the worth of average town role as you miss out on at least 1 night as a nightly role which most of them are

[@Peachrocks5]

Yeah I honestly don't think Famine is anywhere near S+. I mean in Apocalypse mode they are better but outside of it? Has it ever won on pipes videos? It's near impossible, even if you have one other horseman.

[@Raijuri]

I think Doomsayer should be permitted to guess 1 TI out of their 3 guesses, but no more than that. Most townies are already hesitant to claim outright anyway because of ritualist.

[@Local_Iterator]

Ikr. You could be in a game as doomsayer but boom, only 2 un-Ti roles left.

[@brycesandberg2281]

I think If the Deputy gets the correct shot, they should become a Sheriff. The town will still see them as Deputy but the Deputy can investigate at night. This will give the Deputy something to do after they have shot and can still be helpful to town. Also, come on, it makes sense. A Deputy being promoted to Sheriff. It will be like the VH from ToS1 becoming a Vigilante after the Vampires are gone.

[@Evalora]

punting jester/exe and getting a role off of it a la 'promotion' would be a bit odd as they're not really existential threats like proper nk's/coven/na's are maybe a deputy who's shot evil can grant someone a one-off vigi attack for the next night, to take a minor page out of tpow's like monarch as it is a slightly odd inbetween but unlike its purple contemporary doesn't eventually turn into a direct attacker beyond its one attack.. in a way think would be preferable if it wasn't an autoconfirm role, as it (barring a change) has literally nothing persistently going for it at that point, unlike mayor which has the votes and prosecutor who defies voting itself

[@Linkshadow-fv7tv]

Dreamweaver+jinx is a decent combo Plus Amnesiac needs a rework the role is basically you a town role but get your abilities later in the game.

[@Nemchick]

Witch + junx is better probably

[@pumpyinsertpumpkinemote5059]

@@Nemchick I dont think so with DW-Jinx you almost always have a good outcome but with Witch-Jinx , witch could still control a non visiting/NK but either combos can be good.

[@Vearru]

Plague bearer is probably at least D tier because unlike the baker you actually get information about the roles based off visits at nights and you can know who certain evils are and where claims are accurate or not.

[@alamand4769]

Bodyguard is one of my favorite roles, low pressure role and I'm less likely to be in an end game situation where I need to try and pick between the last evil and the last town. Overall just a nice stress free role.

[@MegaHuntress]

Yeah i like BG too. It's a really nice feeling when you manage to kill somebody, even if you end up losing. granted I think Pipe is doing this tier list from the perspective of an "all any " role list, and BG is significantly weaker there. Still a overall chill role to play.

[@Underworlder5]

@@MegaHuntress true. if you die protecting someone as bodyguard, you feel you did your job, especially if you killed an important role like coven leader. bodyguard is also far less likely to backfire than crusader since you only kill attackers instead of all visitors (though it CAN still backfire if you end up protecting another dangerous evil like arsonist or a horseman)

[@kemosonicfan123lbp]

Judge apocalypse roles as a whole, splitting them like this makes no sense because there are 0 scenarios where you start as Famine, or have to stay as the Baker forever (willingly)

[@buwompstomp]

they are different roles with different abilities. that's like putting all the town roles on the same tier as amne because amne BECOMES any town role logic 0

[@kemosonicfan123lbp]

@@buwompstomp you actual moron. There's a big difference between the SOUL COLLECTOR, a role that quite literally is designed entirely around becoming Death, and Amnesiac, a role that has a random chance of swinging games.

[@NicoTheCinderace]

​@@buwompstomp Shut your goofy ahh up.

[@Underworlder5]

agreed. ranking them separately would completely change things up. death might be a game changer, but soul collector has no impact until transformed and can take a while if you get unlucky. also, because of how impactful death is, all other players in the match will unite against you, and you WILL get upped if you lack a strong claim, or someone else looks more suspicious than you. death has a low win rate for a reason same thing with famine. while killing all other players except three might be powerful, that really narrows down the options of who famine is, meaning they rarely win even if they starve the town. if the three spared players happen to be confirmed towns or coven, you will not win. that is, if you get to transform at all, since players with bread dying suddenly is frustratingly common

[@Local_Iterator]

​@@buwompstompamne can become any role. apoc can only switch to 1 role. your logic is 0. hypocrite

[@JoBarr22]

Thanks pipe, now I can spirit bomb coroner claims!

[@fangstars9226]

Why

[@vulpeiren]

​@@fangstars9226

[@fangstars9226]

i kinda use that fake claim or claim a ts like most commonly adm

[@Underworlder5]

i will admit, my go-to vet bait is to claim coroner D1

[@Sorfallo]

@@Underworlder5 my go to coroner claim is tpow, so the conjurer blows me up for no reason

[@plyingsolid6639]

I feel like the reason War isn’t as scary as the other NApoc is because you always know if a war is coming, but the other horsemen are way harder to know if they exist

[@bladehoon]

I believe that hexed people showing up inno is actually a buff, as it hides the fact that there's a HM in the game, and draws less attention to hexed people

[@dr.chalmers7923]

To buff Pest I think it would be cool to have the plague cause a speech debuff to any non-apoc effected. It would decrease the amount of words a player could type at once, and increase the time between a player’s messages. That way the pb is not as useless but it also buffs the pest greatly once everyone is infected.

[@llyrseadancer]

An interesting buff to Coroner could be a 3/game option to 'restore' a corpse at night, revealing it's real role/will to everyone if it was stoned/forged, and then have the day action be to investigate people for signs of being the killer of some one who's in the graveyard currently (not a 'blood check' but a 'they killed one of the corpses in the graveyard') meaning they could confirm crus/vet/vig also incase some one's fake claiming it too. Invest could also get a buff of 'this house reeks of gas/illness' but without being a 'this is, for sure the arsonist/pb' but allow players to find them Arso could use a buff by causing them to also douse a random adjacent house to the targeted house, allowing for more rapid, if kinda random, dousing

[@shurikengaming47]

15:47 I was once playing as Conjurer with the book in a TT game where our TT Crusader died early on. We had to get the revealed Mayor out of the way, but knew there was a Bodyguard in the game. I told my Illusionist to go on me and killed the Mayor, bypassing the BG. We pushed and successfully hanged the BG the next day, winning us the game after killing some of the last people.

[@merendell]

You know coroner might be better if it worked more like the psychic. Autopsy a body at night and you get 3 suspects one of whom is the killer. Cant hit the same corpse multiple times to narrow it down but if you hit the coven target 2 consecutive nights theres a good chance to find who has the book.

[@hayato.32]

too op , you literally find the book holder after 2 days ?

[@bloxer9563]

@@hayato.32 yeah

[@jeromyzx153]

I feel like a good exi play is doing the admirer strat telling someone confirmed that that you are going to hook up with your exe target than go silent. XD

[@7moody872]

Pipe you forgot to mention that hex master’s hex bomb can kill invincible defense like NA

[@HairyHorux]

Also that necro can cause hex bomb to go off by raising them

[@thedankmemelord3969]

Suggested balances Vet Alerting and killing a non town role will give another charge (max 1 per night) Or Veterans can mimic neutral killing styles so during day phase their death will seem to be due to that NK instead of a veteran allowing the vet to survive without any coven or NAs immediately knowing their teammate visited a veteran Coroner 3 charges: can watch a target, if the target dies the coroner will get the killers name and role. Also if anyone tries to destroy last wills or change the victims role they will be seen by the coroner as someone tampering with evidence Trickster Roleblocks target and informs trickster they tried to kill them, now they have to convince town war During day war can choose two players, at start of night they will have both players play Rock Paper Scissors, loser dies and draws count as loss for both Or all players have +1 offense Arso Dousing another arso will inform both the other is an arso and won’t douse them. Pros Can choose to drop their case and let the victim go Bg Targets know if they are guarded regardless of bg dying

[@novaeclipse139]

It could be interesting if Doomsayer unlocks the ability to doom TIs after a certain amount of time or condition is met. Maybe that might be too much but idk. Just a thought

[@anzyroadside2374]

Imagine a Coroner doing a necromancer style of command at night, like choosing a corpse and a live town member at the same night. That would be OP.

[@arjunbaweja7755]

Retri

[@anzyroadside2374]

​​@@arjunbaweja7755But the retributionist is just a lesser necromancer

[@arjunbaweja7755]

@@anzyroadside2374 yeah why do you think that lmao it’s for balencing coven had less people so they need more power to compensate

[@RenShinomiya121]

Yeah, needing 2 days to actually investigate suspects is weak as hell. even if you do dissect and search on the same night, it's still weak. You're still doing Invest's job but weaker. Investigators can potentially find any evil, that's 4 Covens, and NKs which is probably around 4-5/14 chance of finding evils at worst, meanwhile a Coroner often only has a 1/14 chance of being correct, even with the buff you suggested.

[@Underworlder5]

@@RenShinomiya121 coroner rework idea: you can autopsy a corpse at night. the next day, three players will be picked out as suspects, one of them being the killer, and the two others being random. however, the list of suspects can also be manipulated by illusionist/enchanter (the killer will not be on the list if illusioned, and enchanted players will be automatically included on the list) i will admit, it took me about a second to think of that rework, so it might not be the best idea. still curious to see how it will work

[@silvercyndaquil8472]

I think Doomsayer turning into a new role that's basically ToS1 SK after there's not enough viable options would be great - they'd still be able to win, and how they play the rest of the game would be important. Jester would also work but I feel like it wouldn't be as good personally? I don't know, it'd just feel kinda boring, and would reward playing poorly earlier in the game.

[@cashminimum]

Pipe do you hate playing AS trickster, or do you hate playing AGAINST trickster?

[@curtis2k844]

I feel like vigilantes final shot should be a powerful one similar to sks bloodlust.

[@ntsikayomzimbebe2056]

I have the same idea

[@buwompstomp]

take a shot every time pipe says "whose kidding who"

[@quackduckquack]

Ideal coven lineup = none of my teammates leaving Day 1

[@teletummy]

An interesting way to change coroner might be to let it choose as many people to check at night as they want, but not tell them which of the people they checked is the killer. It could narrow down small groups like psychic or confirm groups as not a certain killer

[@MoBeigi]

I had the same idea! I think its a cool change. It can make coroner go from trying to find the killer to confirming non-killers. Would probably be very strong against NK/NA compared to Coven. You could check half the game and let people know they are not NK/NA. Maybe it needs a cap (like maximum of 3 people you can check at once).

[@teletummy]

Unfortunately the wills would probably really confusing to read/write

[@ilikecatsandtos2]

31:34 "You can stop the doomsayer from dooming, you can stop the ritualist from ritualisting." I'M DYING RN HELP

[@LucyTheBox]

I think the Doomsayer should have an extra option "Town Investigative" that only unlocks once there are 6 players or less left at the start of the night.

[@thevoidismyhome7242]

Voodoo + Dreamweaver is a good combo Conj + Hex is good since Conj could blast the final unhexed person as needed Conj in general is useful for securing the early, mid, or late game Witch would be nice for information gathering, as would Wilding I think my ideal team would probably be: Wilding, Voodoo Master, Dreamweaver, and Ritualist

[@thevoidismyhome7242]

Or maybe Conj, Voodoo, Dreamweaver, and Hex

[@MajorNotebook]

Idk if this is a good shroud buff but: There will always be at least two (they don’t know who the other is) And if they attack/shroud the same target it becomes powerful attack I’m not sure if they should know each other or not tho

[@Vearru]

I think trickster is good, it’s like a better bodyguard now. Sure it’s frustrating when you get taunted, but most people when playing the role well will only taunt people with suspicious chat or no chat, so to play around it as an evil you just pretend to be town. I think it’s fair and fun provided skill levels in the game increase.

[@thesolargamer9751]

i love necro its my personal favorite coven role just due to 1 play i had where i shut down 2 apoc members endgame due to monarch and cleric plays and carried my coven who all were basically purple jesters cause they all died so fast due to stupid moves.

[@silmysoldier2498]

Ideal coven lineup Cl, Rit, Pm, Hex. The reason id say this is better than what pipe's is that the information from pmer is stronger than more killing potential and Hex when you think about it if things go well 1 hexed person = 1 dead person given them more killing potential than a conj or a rit. ritualist is also way better than conjurer because most of the time you already know the role of the person you are metoring

[@avena7506]

Ive already played a ton of games and the amount of times I get game-ended by a seer will is 10x more than anything else.

[@Lalaoz]

i kind of want to see a game where its 3 hex masters and a coven leader against a really powerful town. as a role list i feel like that would result in some pretty crazy fast paced games.

[@ayegaming14]

I like it when everyone, regardless of role, teams up to kill the apoc roles when they transform

[@namelesstraveller137]

Once had a coroner game where nobody died until d4 and it was as fun as it sounds

[@placeholderblankspace]

15:40 Something to think about illu is that it can out Coven to Spy, meaning if there's a silent Spy (firstly, why), or if a Spy decides to bug your coven that has book, you just auto confirm them as coven. Kinda sucks tbh

[@envy7272]

I will say from what I've seen, with ghost town proscuters seem to be way more important since evil ghosts can mess things up for town

[@xLaniakea_]

9:50 Wait.....is this ~40 seconds into the Jak and Daxter Precursor Legacy - Rock Village song?

[@Sabert0]

Why would you seperate apoc into 2? Should treat them as 1. How would you rate each apoc?

[@Underworlder5]

personally, i would put death in C tier. yes, you auto win if you avoid getting lynched the day you transform, but that in itself is a problem. you are so powerful that every other non-apoc players will drop everything and unite just to take you down. even before that, soul collector does nothing on its own and can take a while to transform if you get unlucky, at which point there will not be many players left, and most will be confirmed or coven. death exists to punish passive/complacent towns and does not really win on its own (ironically, you want as few deaths as possible before you transform so there will be a bigger list of suspects. maybe you are lucky enough to get a jester who uses the opportunity to get lynched)

[@ARMProducts1120]

Trickster idea: literally turn it into TOS 1 transporter but add some Town Killing twists. You can switch the places of two town members, including yourself, also switching what happens to them during the night. They will be notified of being tricked (transported). This ability has unlimited uses. The first town member you select to trick is the town member you visit that night. If you trick yourself to someone else, you will gain basic defense for that night. This ability can only be used 2 times per game. If you trick an evil killing role into yourself, you will deal a powerful attack to them but only if they directly attack you. If they don’t directly attack you, your attack will be a basic attack. You will be notified what attack you used if you trick yourself.

[@Mikufanboy3]

I agree on most of the list. Admirer is famous for being a stealth town killing role in a literal sense, it's worth it's position in B but only if you have players that understand the game. Crus and Vigi have the issue where they can only kill 15 non town roles (17 if CL/Jester doesn't defense), unable to kill 10 non town roles and able to kill all other 24 town roles outside of situations of defense with Town protective/monarch. The odds of them being useful in a 4 coven game is slim, and the odds of them being detrimental are much higher. The learning curve in TOS 2 is much higher, Town Investigatives need to step up their game, I'd say Sheriff and Investigator are two sides of the same coin and I'd say a Spy is the vampire hunter of Enchanter/Illusionists.

[@asaberry2571]

The reason that the vet kills fewer is that so many of the added roles are day actors, with the removal of rb immune and the addition of more astral visits, the proportion of visits to a vet bait has gone down, and the proportion of those visits that can be shot has gone down even more.

[@dragonkingscott]

I think that War should target 2 people every night to rampage at, it would give them more of that feeling of being a god.

[@kalkattni]

i dont have tos2 yet but thinking about a seer finding two serial killers or two arsonists or something and revealing them as friends, and boom now they can whisper eachother and coordinate all thanks to a townie that sounds like such a fun possibility even if its a tiny tiny chance :P

[@amazehub3644]

War vs Pest The reason why people aren't scared of war is because people expect war to come sometime as everyone knows about bers but pest is a sudden threat

[@Xhadp]

I'd put doomsayer in the A tier with the other Neutral roles. I like how you can use it to guess other neutrals or even coven. Once it gets more respect maybe it can be shifted to B tier. One thing that I dislike about it is that the role doesn't suit the name. I'd also agree that it needs some further changes, maybe not to the extent of being able to get a different role but just something to open up the door to some counterplay and maybe a name change to suit the role better. One thing I am noticing is that the gamemode also play a factor into how good a role is so your experience in playing exclusively AA plays a factor in this.

[@Elluka_Clockworker]

Doomsayer sounds like a neutral apocalypse role

[@takedownmg5096]

1:15 I've actually done that as an Executioner Play, it worked well too

[@mikmin2.0]

the way i'd rework coroner to be a better TI would be to when the coronor investigates a body, if there was multiple people that visited the dead the night they die, when the coroner autopsies the body, they will see everyone that visited when the body died. However, IF there is only a "killer" that visited the body the night it died it would instead give you a phychic evil vision like result, where one of the 3 people are the murderer of the body (so they cant just FIND a evil without much effort) Definitions: Killer: A anyone that directly caused the death of the person by visiting them/was visited by them for example, the shrouded player will show up as the killer instead of the shroud itself, the veteran that killed them, CL that killed them Visiting: Normal they'd visit the graveyard at night when they do this EDGE CASES IF the body was taken by a retri or necro the investigating would fail and tell you the body was taken. IF the body has been tapered by a retry or necro youd instead see that the body has been re-animated before IF no one visited the body the night it died (disconnecting, scurvy, arso, famine, etc.) you'd get no traces IF the person died by 2 different people, and ONLY those people, youll get the 3 potential killers BUT 2 of them are killers this time IF 3 or more people kill the person, the coroner's autopsy will fail and say that the body was too mutilated to find any clues (balancing) How do you guys think this balances the role? too op? still bad? i'd like to know :)

[@chumpofalltime]

The reason that the jailor still jails night 1 is that at the end of the day, they still are a roleblocker, so they can stop killing roles from killing.

[@nz75Kingston]

Would be interresting if Doomsayer turned into a Jester with no valid targets but died at thatt night if they're not lynched.

[@Bobby0424]

I know what u mean. Pipe about veteran I remember in tos1 I legit one night got like 4-5 kills it was an investment, bg, medic, and 2 other roles. But it seems so different from tos1, sadly. I haven't seen a veteran in tos2 get more than 1 kill a night yet.

[@mokou1676]

The thing about war/berserker is that by themselves they are just Jugg which sucks, but their real threat comes from possibly having teammates unlike NKs, you speed up SC turning into death (specially now that SC is astral so when you start rampaging you dont hurt them) and you can act sus trying to get people to hang you instead of Death, you kill people without plague helping PB transform into pesti (which leads to 2 unkillables rampaging around), if famine didnt get hanged you secure a win by killing one of the people with bread while also killing annoying TIs/Coven trying to find baker.

[@michasokoowski6651]

"I don't want to be a cursed soul" Yea, that's the point.

[@NicoTheCinderace]

Yeah, it's not fair to split up the pre-transformation and post-transformation roles for the Neutral Apocalypse. They need to be in the same tier, because *of course* they're going to be weak before transforming. That's their entire *point.*

[@buwompstomp]

they are different roles with different abilities. that's like putting all the town roles on the same tier as amne because amne BECOMES any town role logic 0

[@octok4276]

@@buwompstomp when the baker gets three bread and turns into lookout smh smh fr fr

[@placeholderblankspace]

18:59 tried to Maylord a game recently, it's tough as hell reading all those whispers lmao. We won tho (had Mon and Jailor and we all lived lmao) but ngl I don't think I helped, so Maylord rlly needs a skilled af player. But also with Pros and Dep, you can't make all those roles not be whisperable once they pop out.

[@corpserule1582]

Coven: "dies to veteran" Veteran/Town: "Ah i see, that person's the veteran, makes sense" Veteran: Dies to Doomsayer. Yeah, from what i've seen, coven have so much more protection / other methods of attacking, and yeah, just waiting as noted above usually solves the problem, after losing someone, you end up 1f1 if doomsayer is in the game. Part of veteran was how easily it was confirmed, it was someone the jailor trusted, and a confirmed townie with self defence was a strong townie. Now a confirmed townie is a dead/ignored townie. Also, part of being unique is the ability to CC (strong when confirmed townies are good), vet was king of CC, can't cc if there can be 2 of you.

[@ethanhinton4549]

Trickster rework idea: no longer a Killing role. Simply makes whoever they visit target the Trickster instead of their intended target, using yourself as a test dummy to figure out certain abilities. (Ex, if you visit a killer and are killed, you'll incriminate them in your will... BUT its possible that they randomly chose you and their target anyway and you got the wrong guy.)

[@RenShinomiya121]

Or just make it become the old Transporter, since it's what the role is based on to begin with. Pre-rework trickster is bad because it only redirects people who visit you to your target and not vice versa. Post-rework trickster is boring because you're just bg, but instead of visiting your protection target, you visit the killer. Or you're just going to visit sus people and double suicide. A good idea that still changes up the role away from transporter, but still in line with the whole trickster idea, is to just revert it into the pre-rework, but it works both ways. It's not gonna be as strong as ToS1 transporter since you can't freely switch 2 random people at will because you have to target yourself for the switch, but atleast you'll provide more utility to Town since you can be both a TP (redirect killers away from your target) and a TK (redirect killers to themselves or a confirmed vet).

[@placeholderblankspace]

36:15 i think vigi is more fun than dep too, since u get to be more aggro. Vet and Dep are like... u can find more ppl sus but u can't do anyth unless they visit u OR uve alr done ur thing and now u watch helplessly. vigi just gets to keep on shooting

[@anwylis2389]

So something I noticed when playing ToS2 so far: 3 of the 6 TIs are almost exactly the same Coroner, Investigator, and Sheriff all are functionally the same in terms of how they discover evils Sheriff is definitely the most straightforward about it, and they haven't changed much since ToS1, but the changes to Invest made it feel like Sheriff, and Coroner is a weaker Invest I'm not even sure what you could do to make Coroner more interesting, maybe having it so that instead of finding out the singular person, they find the role that killed them, or the alignment they're from I really like the diverse role list we have in the game so far, even if some of the roles feel like weaker ToS1 roles, the game has been really fun and hectic because of the new role list

[@Gabrys494]

I would honestly disagree with Famine being in S+. A solo Famine with 3 other people left after starvation starts is most likely going to get voted out one way or another unless the remaining 3 are particularly gullible. A Famine paired up with a Berserker, then they are fine, but alone, I don't think Famine is good enough for S+, not to mention the little RNG involved in making sure you dont somehow give Bread to all the Coven or any other role who can insta confirm themselves

[@LunickTMM]

On veteran, it's two fold: 1) veterans are more easily countered now. There's a ton of astral visits, role blocking, so it's a lot harder for vet to actually get someone to visit 2) there's more roles. This just decreases the number of times you see vet as well.

[@venrisulven]

Whenever I vest as jest im always killed by a WW

[@Parukig]

would say that both bg and trapper get destroyed by shroud as if shroud decides to shroud bg at any point and there's not a cleric on the bg will just die to themself and the trapper traps can trigger and kill anybody who is shrouded with a non astral visit. Plus shrouding is a astral action so don't have to really worry about shrouding the same target as rampaging roles.

[@thatponybro6940]

i think Trickster would benefit from another change, and it should be like bait people to attack but you can make them think that another person is the one that's baiting attacks, i guess kind of like a merge between Vet and ToS1 Disguiser, you can still be found by Seer, Sheriff, Invest and PMs

[@MintyFreshToS]

Funfact, Hexbomb can kill transformed Neutral Apoc roles, hexbomb is stronger than unstoppable attack. My necromancer in a recent game used my body to hex the final person, abd pest died to the bomb.

[@Volvary]

Executioner can still turn into a potato by locking in a confirmed town but it's a lot better than Doomsayer. At least you get the option to figure out other evils and use a majority to push that person.

[@mees7920]

honestly if they want to buff corner without too much effort they should just get 2-3 checks per autopsy to be good, maybe only once per body. A more fun approach would be 1 check per dead body, so if 3 people died N2, you get to check 3 people N3 to see if they killed ANY of the bodies. This would make corner feel like it has more of a purpose (being more helpful when there are a lot of evils in the game) rather than worse invest. To solve the "nobody dying" problem, I think having the corner gain basic defense for one night would be okay, this would also be in line with a corner since they are no longer working. Meaning that they are more observent to their surroundings.

[@SirenPandaSabo]

I streamed a coroner game and I did carry. I autopsied a Coven member who ended up killed by a WW. I found them. Won the game with that. Although simple deduction worked, it had it uses. Tbf, it was my first coroner game and I hadn't played it before. Likely will upload. Edit: Listening to the Illusionist part. THIS DID HAPPEN WHEN I WAS A CONJURER. People voted up a Trapper for being 'fake' when I (Conju) killed someone that had a trap. I didn't realise in the video but I did find out afterwards.

[@plyingsolid6639]

A fun change for pirate would make them leave when there is like 5 or less people( not including the pirate themselves ) left in the town

[@archmage1015]

I think doomsayer should be able to guess TIs, but only if they guess EVERY person's role correctly. So if they're stuck at the end with nothing but TIs left, they can just guess everyone to win. So they can win by guessing 3 non-TIs correctly, or guessing everyone correctly including TIs. Maintains the nerf of not guessing TIs early on, so TIs can still pop out with their info, but allows doomsayer to maintain threat throughout the game.

[@danielehmling205]

Imo you should judge the apocalypse roles as one, because the entire point of the first form is to get to the second form, which is usually more powerful than other roles. Imo it doesnt make sense to judge them seperatly, since the first form will be very low and the second one will be very high

[@unknowed5048]

28:19: SK officially is an Apoc role because everyone is afraid of an SK

[@JediMayuki]

Love the list - Love the Jax and Daxter music even more 😂

[@sirhartington4300]

Good tier list. I love the jak and daxter music.

[@RandomPerson-ck1ve]

I wish that illusionist could choose to instead visit non-coven and act like a hypnotist, especially when there is a spy getting work done.

[@PeteDavid-gw4qk]

Voodoo also works really well with Enchanter

[@papertowell7120]

Yeah a great tactic is to silence someone then kill them the next night, alternate them as an admirer and put a fake admirer will accusing someone

[@braysonthompson9630]

I agree with coroner every time I get the role only evil dies except for one or two and then I die once a townie dies

[@waterfang587]

8:27 "Fine, I'll do it myself..."

[@dismal-26]

I think NA roles (the final forms) should be the strongest in the game because of how bad or long it is to transform. As such I think both Pest and War need buffs, so im gonna give my idea for a buff for both. War: Has Unstoppable Attack, and invincible defense (will rampage) Immune to RB and controls, killing those who attempted Kill any Lo or Tracker that tries to catch you, Sheriff sees you as innocent You kill the jailor, even if they attempt to execute you Cannot kill NA roles (basically tos1 pest with unstoppable attack) This would essentially make him the strongest night killer in the game, requiring peoples attention. Pest: Gain Invincible Defense Will kill RB and control attempts Every night after Pestilence is revealed, half (rounded down) of the remaining people are randomly killed by disease (unstoppable attack) (excluding NA roles) This would drastically make Pest a force to be reckoned, and force the town to focus them (Half of the remaining people might be too strong, but the idea of random people dying from disease is the whole point)

[@Stazariii]

Only 1 view O.o Love to see a new tier list now that the game has launched.

[@Nekrotix12]

Ay nice use of Jak and Daxter music! Great game.

[@AgapeForgotten]

2:49 Did you say half a role or half a roll? Joking aside.. Why are they town powers and not.. like.. Town Leaders or Town Authority to save time? That way you don't get TP claims mixed up.

[@mohammadalidarybari4074]

6:23 "killing people is fun" -PipeTron 2023

[@RosemaryCemetery]

Hey pipe. In my opinion enchanter needs to be S tier at minimum, potentially S+ tier. All you need is a target who doesnt talk much and you have infinite amounts of plays to do that confirm your teammates or yourself, while making people who actually find you look guilty. For example, forging someone quiet into an admirer, writing in their will that someone who found you is evil and thats why they didnt speak. Or simply making them exe/jester. It is very hard to catch a good enchanter player.

[@reflectivegaming9979]

My star coven line up is Coven leader - main killer Hex master - team arso Conjuror/Necromancer - chaos depending on graveyard or killing powerful townies Voodoo master - remove town vote

[@NxthingButAMxnster]

imho the better coven line up would be CL, Rit, Wildling, and Conj, wildling can feed claims to rit or even have the people asking for claims killed by conj

[@ZaTrapu]

Illusionist can hurt the team if they seen visiting a teammate by a LO, tracker, or crus. If a spy sees an illusion then it's over for that teammate

[@Catswaga]

Imo Veteran probably doesnt feel as strong becuase the whole ecosystem if u will in ToS2 is more powerful and the power dynamics have shifted a bit. For the Doomsayer I think the jester change is fine but maybe they get the option to chose the TIs on n4 or n5 cuz at that point if u are a TI and alive ur either fake with defence or shouldnt be but idk maybe its too strong. Trickster needs a new identity yea. They could just turn it into the transporter while they figure something better for it imo cuz thematically it makes sense that the switch is a trick but then it wont be a TK so idk... Tbh I dont see why it needs to be kept as TK. Maybe add a some twist to the transports idk like they perform their night abilities on eachother but thats too much chaos prob. But yea for me ideal coven team would be CL, Ritualist, Conjurer cuz they are just insane and then the PM cuz I feel like the utility is crazy and its very versitile as well.

[@Lamadon_Pyreus]

After a *Doomsayer* cannot appease the Old Ones, they will be taken as a sacrifice and killed. They were taken by the Old Ones - though, becoming *Jester* sounds better.

[@JohnDoe-wb9xk]

21:42 I disagree with PB being that low because you can fake claim with semi accurate results and atleast set you up somewhere