Toxic vs. Healthy Masculinity

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[@zentesque]

As a woman, I always hated that term and felt it is simply degrading, as if implying that toxicity is innate to men. What would "toxic femininity" equivalent be, like... gossip? Emotional manipulation throught tears and such? Toxic behavior, to me, is genderless, ageless, raceless etc. Gosh, imagine "toxic senior-ship" or "toxic blackness" 💀 So stupid, divisive and alienating. Edit: Y'all, I'm really excited to see the depth of conversation and debate I've started with my comment - keep it going! But please, keep it respectful. Also, I expanded my stance on this topic in some of my replies, so read those if you care to know. Otherwise, I'm dropping out since I no longer see anything new being said that I haven't already addressed. Peace ✌

[@shyper17]

Well according to the modern society women can't possibly be bad. The society seems to be radicalising feminism to the degree of literal supremacism. My honest opinion is that being a good or a bad person should not depend on gender, but rather on the behaviour. I mean it's not even an opinion honestly... I'm just shocked that even the very basics of human education are politicised. Like why do 6yo kids have to be a part of the propaganda?

[@catswellthecat7855]

As a fellow woman, I totally agree. It seems like it makes men afraid to be masculine to label it that way. Call out bad behavior for what it is, but don't tie it to an immutable characteristic about the person.

[@Jose_Doe]

Does kinda wear down after you know ten years

[@rw5622]

Words have definitions. You are offended because you don't know what words mean. It describes certain behaviors. Those behaviors are precisely unique to men, so it wouldn't make sense to call it something else. If you understood what that term meant you wouldn't be so upset. It's not divisive or offensive at all and had nothing to do with men. It's describing a set of behaviors imposed by society on to men to hurt men.

[@tbqhwyf]

Maybe learn what toxic masculinity means first. When people say "toxic masculinity", they don't mean that masculinity is toxic. What they mean is the type of masculinity that is toxic. In other words, if masculinity is a set, then toxic masculinity is its subset It's like saying "bad car". When you say "bad car", you don't mean that cars are bad, you're talking about a specific model or a specific car.

[@AROAH]

Shaking off the chains of caring about what it means to be “masculine” was one of the best things I ever did. Highly recommend being your own person regardless of society’s expectations.

[@eloquentsloth6080]

Alternatively, I've found more fulfillment in my life by doing the things that are considered more traditionally masculine.

[@rodnaskel2123]

​@@eloquentsloth6080 +1 to this, you can even feel that your feelings are being validated if that was your issue before

[@zargle5924]

When you don't care about this made up standard of masculinity, you gain much freedom in your identity

[@jayj5003]

@@eloquentsloth6080 probably becuase your perspective and opinion of "fulfillment" = masculint.

[@AROAH]

@@eloquentsloth6080 I would question whether it's a matter of you not caring whether things are considered masculine, but rather that your preferences happen to line up with the traditional idea of masculinity. Ultimately, I think it's important to be able to be who you want to be without necessitating a "correct" way of conducting oneself simply based on genetics.

[@fisicogamer1902]

Dude, i am happy to not be born with the internet. Beyond being a man, i don't wanna be toxic as a human. As long as I understand what I mean by that in practice(and I apply those concepts in my life and my loved ones) i care no shit about others opinion. Be strong my dudes . People's opinion are often dumber the more extreme those are.

[@brendanbudniak2261]

Meh it's actually better to be born with the internet

[@zeez7777]

@@brendanbudniak2261 Hell nah

[@kasmo_adRojo]

​@@brendanbudniak2261no it's not 😂

[@brendanbudniak2261]

@@kasmo_adRojo nah it is

[@Baronnax]

A lot of us got really lucky because we get a lot of the benefits of having access to the internet without being raised by it. That balance is getting really hard to achieve these days with chronically online iPad kids who basically grow up online.

[@Koroistro]

I define "toxic" as "harmful to self and/or others". Man or woman, doesn't matter. For example I see narcissistic as toxic. Lack or refusal of communication is toxic, and so on. Although I am trying not to overuse the term.

[@ConfusedDesigner2171]

The issue with your definition is that some people might find hurtful what you don't, or even worse, people might find hurtful what might benefit you, leading into a hierarchy and perception trap where there's no exit.

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

​@@ConfusedDesigner2171There we require communication and give and take. What we dont need is gender supression and labelling one gender with specific traits. While that may not be the purpose there is no question that is what it has become.

[@Kio_Kurashi]

@@ConfusedDesigner2171 To support your point: I don't think that a lack or refusal of communication is toxic. At least not strictly on its own. There's plenty of people who don't say a whole lot, but they get by just fine. But even ignoring that, to go with Koroistro's definition: I still don't see it as _harmful_ either. It can only _become_ harmful when given context of a situation that had a negative outcome. And even then, that may not have been the issue of the lack of communication.

[@aki-senkinn]

Toxic is always in the dose. Even water becomes toxic if you drink 5 gallons of it at once. Masculinity isn't toxic, exaggerating it to the point where it is harmful to ones self or others around them is. But this is true for literally anything else. Femininity can be toxic, if someone discards their dreams only because it isn't womanly enough, or forces their daughter to wear clothes they are "uncomfortable" (like revealing) because it's what girls are supposed to wear. Kindness can be toxic if you are always so pressed about pleasing everyone in the moment you set up horrible consequences on the long run, just to be nice right now. Love can be toxic if it's smothering or obsessive. Toxic things are always neutral or positive things taken to a harmful extreme.

[@Zetos]

Toxic isn't necessarily about just being hurt. It's when someone's constant negative behavior starts to change how you perceive life at your core. This can be a lower self esteem, or ptsd for example. Like a person only loving you when you do what they want.

[@susannepinheirobartolo]

Definition : Academic usage. In the social sciences, toxic masculinity refers to traditional cultural masculine norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall. So for example teaching men to never be able to talk about their worries or to teach them women are second grade humans and men stand above them. If people use the term outside of the definition it is not toxic masculinity.

[@gabbsdy8741]

Finally a proper definition. This dr is making up SH!t to please his audience

[@vvs7949]

Proof that 99% of the claims of toxic masculinity isn’t actually toxic masculinity

[@bold_n_brash]

thank you 👏👏 I hate how it’s been sort of co-opted into pop psych terms akin to “narcissist” and “trigger” to the point where it’s basically lost all meaning. instead of the nuanced convo about how there are gendered expectations that ultimately cause more harm than good, it’s turned into “manly = bad” which is not remotely true!

[@Brickwinds]

"Norms that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall" is the most vague, subjective definition you could imagine. There's absolutely nothing academic about that definition. What level of harm does it need to do to be considered toxic? Who gets to decide what is harmful and what is beneficial?

[@susannepinheirobartolo]

@@Brickwindsor war?

[@brandonjackson5142]

I always thought toxic masculinity was stuff like violence, shame/shaming, cruelty, and or self harm in the name of masculinity or the creating the perception of it for others. But I also don't like those things either.

[@faelirra]

You think that way because that is what people actually mean when they call out toxic masculinity.

[@kylechaplain8073]

It can be those things. However it is “your perception”.

[@kresovk5]

And yet, women can also be cruel and violent. Do they then possess toxic masculine traits? And they in general engage more often in shaming each other, that one is more feminine experience, so not the best example. Those descriptions are genderless and some of them aren't even inherently bad, for an example shaming. It's a tool, it has it's place. The fact that it makes you feel bad doesn't make it inherently malignant. That leaves me with a question though. What defines something as masculine/feminine? It be something in attitude, and not in the outcome. Desire for power and being competitive is a masculine trait. Them being masculine doesn't disqualify women from having them, as both genders engage in feminine and masculine traits. It's just that one side will gravitate towards having more traits of its side compared to others. Forming social groups and caring about others would be a more feminine trait. Feel free to correct me!

[@strangejune]

​@@kresovk5You're like half right in a bad way. Genders do not inherently have certain traits, and do not gravitate to certain traits like you think. Western society assigns certain traits to men and women (like being dominant and strong or being kind and passive) and of course it comes largely from patriarchy. Toxic masculinity is the practice of the worst parts of that, or you could say the most extreme. The behaviors aren't exclusive to men, but because of how western society is, it's more common in men and they have the position to use it more than women do, typically.

[@kresovk5]

​ @strangejune And who created the society? It came as an evolution of basic human interaction. There is a reason why women find confident men attractive, while men are mostly indifferent. Men and women have different desires and with that came social norms we follow, so we can live in harmony. It's not like society just *poof*, came to an existence and decided what should everyone follow. And no, women do very much have power, especially in this current world where everyone can cover their basic physical needs, which was the primary area of operation for men, so they are no longer needed for this. Which only leaves social realm, which is where women are typically better suited at navigating, as they can express their desires and emotions better. Can you express better what do you mean by toxic? Otherwise, we are running in circles. Funnily enough, that sentence beats your argument that women hold no power, yet shaming something so people stop doing it (which is done by saying something is bad/immoral) is a form of power.

[@midwinter78]

Definitions: I'm a descriptivist. Definitions are about usage in real life, but _who's_ usage and _which_ parts of real life. There are senses grounded in feminist theory that are a lot more nuanced than Dr K's definition, however it often seems that Dr K's definition is what the terms degenerate into especially on the internet. There seems to be a treadmill where words and phrases are born precise and degenerate into mere synonyms for "good" and "bad".

[@paulogaspar8295]

it's not just the internet. every media and even in politics those terms are used in that way. it's basically what society at large is changing those terms into.

[@hermann5347]

You can define words for yourself however you like. But that doesn´t mean that other people agree with the definition. It is important to recognize what most people mean when they use certain words. Aside of a specialized academic circles, language is NOT based on definitions, but on commonly agreed usage.

[@supercool7342]

This is a good way to put it. A lot of the comments from people with backgrounds in theory criticizing Dr. K don’t acknowledge how the phrase is actually used in popular spaces. Not that it wouldn’t be helpful for him to go into where there term originally comes from, but we should at least be honest with ourselves about how it’s used

[@ThisChangeIsAwful]

@@supercool7342 wtf is a popular space? are you talking about twitter? We are going to let twitter dictate and define everything we do? Pathetic. So happy that twitter gets to ruin all our words so we can never accurate describe something. I'm just glad all the toxic people are getting cover for being toxic. I'm super happy for all the toxic abusers out there who will never have to be labeled toxic because of fucking twitter. wow.

[@naminaoberhausen2131]

Right, like "in group preference", becoming "racist". Just redefine terms, tell people which ones are "good", and watch your "utopia" unfold.

[@DingDingTheYoutubeBuddy]

This is why I honestly have just disregarded the whole idea of "masculinity" in general when I was in my late teens and have just decided to instead focus on trying to be the best person I can be rather than the best man I can be - I dont give a fuck if im a "good man," I just want to be a good person. I try to judge other people on this criteria as well, who cares of they're being a good man/woman, are they being a good person is the only question that matters

[@msweeedo]

Being a good person is literally the core defining principle of being a good man. It's just what's good for you specifically as a man, is different for what's good for someone that's a woman due to your different inherent capabilities and dispositions.

[@naminaoberhausen2131]

So you're not wrong at all about just being a good person but you kind of seem to have taken the bait when it comes to masculinity. Obviously the goal of "toxic masculinity" is to get us to reject masculinity. Does that seem apparent to you? There are features that are masculine that all humans need and there are features that are feminine that we all need. The fact that one is being demonized while the other is being promoted should tell us something.

[@user-wx2qt4pu3v]

youtube ding ding

[@user-wi8iu8qm2n]

isnt it the same when you are a woman , you are a good woman if you keep doing things others like , and get called toxic or dumb when you dont

[@Exkajer]

"toxic masculinity" is a buzz word that lost its meaning long ago

[@ThinkBeyondOrdinary]

I think there never was a real meaning in the first place, because the very idea is nonsensical by definition. Because if you try to define that there is such a thing as masculinity, you then also accept that there is such a thing as femininity. And if there are toxic traits in one, it's certainly legitimate to raise the idea that there can be in the other. But the whole modern discourse is precisely on the fact that behaviors, professions, preferences, tastes, and ideas are not defined by gender. And if that's true, what is left? There is no internal coherence, the idea of toxic masculinity only makes sense in a worldview where you accept first and foremost an essential distinction between the genders - which is what the people who use that term are against in the first place.

[@InitialDraal]

​​@@ThinkBeyondOrdinary imma do the devil's advocate but it's not incoherent on that point. They see it as a gradient. So the more you tend to the feminine side as a guy, the more "healthy masculine" you are. For women it is mostly the opposite. Now you're going to say it doesn't make sense, but it does. It makes sense because they aren't trying to construct a new worldview or culture. The goal is to 'deconstruct' everything and make the future female and communist. In other words, the goal is power. They say it themselves I'm just listening to it.

[@ikaros9727]

That's how i feel about the word "Creep"

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

the definition is pretty fucking blatant. don't act like men do nothing wrong

[@user-Aaron-]

​@@ThinkBeyondOrdinaryOr you just recognize the context in which you're operating and work accordingly, which is one of traditional/historical stereotypes and societal beliefs, conventions, values, etc. Then you can be fully capable of knowing which traits are generally considered to be masculine or feminine, while also knowing that they aren't necessarily unique to one gender or based on facts. The purpose of categorizing undesirable behaviours as "toxic" or otherwise is because it's helpful in recognizing said behaviours, recognizing patterns and commonalities, addressing and changing the behaviours, and preventing their widespread adoption or acceptance. It's not really any different than categorizing other forms of bigotry like racism.

[@NEOL1NK]

I thought toxic masculinity referred to toxic traits that are more closely associated with things that are more unique to the experience of being a man, especially when it comes to how men associate with one another.

[@khan507]

That is mostly what it means. I think Dr. K was trying to address the complexity of the issue. Because the problem comes when you don't quite know how to label certain actions as "toxic". Example, if a guy punches a wall when he's angry, is that toxic masculinity? Or if he dislikes other men touching him, is that toxic masculinity? It gets kinda muddled and it sometimes depends on the perception of people.

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

That's the point, nothing is uniquely experienced or acted out by men. Specially not fkin emotions or violence. Many things are much more common in men is what you mean. However, we have far crossed the line where the term "toxic masculinity has been used to actually help men become better. It's literally only used to shame and generalise bad behavipurs to men. It's divisive

[@PlaguedByEarth]

It refers to the interpersonal dynamics in prisons. That's it. A bunch of misandrists expanded that to men in society at large.

[@neo7519]

I'll buy this explanation when "femsplaining", "toxic femininity", and "toxic blackness/whiteness" is used as much as "toxic masculinity". Every group of people has traits from their unique experiences. You can't just attach "toxic" behind that group's classification and not expect it to be taken poorly. Heck, the mere fact that people like you keep defending it, even after so many men express their distaste ... it shows that your ideology is not looking for productive conversations but rather to passive-aggressively target men.

[@strangejune]

​@@neo7519Congrats, you are the problem.

[@6IGNITION9]

"Lack of healthy masculinity" is a concept I almost never hear discussed. Related: Testosterone levels down 30%+ since 1970. See the connection between testosterone and physical and mental health. (Possibly down by 40-50%. Can't find research after early 2000s.)

[@alaalfa8839]

Google says alcohol and smoking affects testosterone too....... I just randomly googled it .....having such thought, it said yes it may decrease testosterone.

[@6IGNITION9]

@@alaalfa8839 True. But smoking and drinking is lower, and testosterone is lower too. So there seems to be a more powerful cause. The most common theory I hear is microplastics leeching endocrine-disrupting chemicals.

[@kewoshk]

They do Dr K dirty with these thumbnails 😅

[@pandapanda246]

I'm kinda upset because on one hand it's true that people started using it this way, but on the other hand, thats not what toxic masculinity actually is. Toxic masculinity is about cultural norms and expectations that are adverse to the fulfillment of human needs and thus breed dysfunction and mental illness in the social system it impacts. It doesnt mean that masculinity is toxic in itself.

[@mountelbert4214]

It is a shame when a term gets used in the wrong way so much that it goes from a benign, even beneficial, term to a meaningless buzzword. However, because it’s now a meaningless buzzword, he has to deal with it as it is popularly perceived, and not what it originally meant. Sad

[@Nomatterwhat69]

​@@mountelbert4214what's for sure though is that huskarls are healthy asf

[@mountelbert4214]

@@Nomatterwhat69 yes

[@heatherclaregreen]

That’s an oversimplification. There are a lot of things a man can do that people like or dislike that have absolutely nothing to do with the term “toxic masculinity”.

[@zzzzoot]

tox masc - using your power to push others down pos masc - using your power to lift others up Rocky is one of my favorite examples of positive masculinity. He uses his strength to pull everyone he cares about up with him.

[@lisaahmari7199]

This is a perfect way to say it.

[@hershmergersh6733]

My favourite example is Aragorn

[@Jamesandvideos]

Exactly, Healthy Masculinity is to protect, toxic masculinity is to harm

[@counterintuitivepanda4555]

That's idiocy because you dont have to be a man to do either of those things. But i agree role models are useful

[@Jamesandvideos]

@@counterintuitivepanda4555 Who says you have to be Man to practice Masculinity?

[@bluebutterfly5062]

Toxic masculinity refers to the aspects of traditional masculinity insecure men use as an excuse to act out. For example, using the title "man of the house" as an excuse to be controlling or violent towards members on the household. Or even "man up" as an excuse to invalidate the emotions and struggles of your fellow man. Toxic feminity is the same type of thing. It's just "toxic" behavior incorporated into gender roles. Usually i agree with Dr.K but i feel like he missed the mark on this one.

[@realcaramelli7068]

I’d give more credence to the term if we actually shined a spotlight on toxic femininity, but the only time you hear that “term” is in relation to toxic masculinity. Most of the traits I’ve inherited that society would consider “toxic masculinity” I learned from my father. The sad truth is that for the most part it has helped me, even though according to feminist principles it shouldn’t have. These traits are passed down, however dysfunctional, because it was a sufficient way to interact with women. When your emotional concerns are dismissed or mocked, you can either suppress your emotions or lash out in anger. Luckily, my girlfriend actually does take my emotional concerns seriously, but there still a large cultural expectation that chauvinistic women have that men should be emotional only in the ways that benefit them. I’d liken it to how chauvinistic men like sexuality in women, but only in the ways that benefit them.

[@user-Aaron-]

I think it refers to more than just that but yeah I think either some much needed context is missing from this clip or Dr. K really missed the mark. Either way this short isn't helpful and probably does more harm than good by empowering those exhibiting toxic masculinity.

[@user-Aaron-]

​@@realcaramelli7068Anyone worth your time cares about both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity. The reason toxic masculinity is the greater focus of so many people is because it's potentially much more harmful both individually and societally. It leads to more violence, murder, rape, radicalism, etc., than toxic femininity does. And before anyone tries to 'whatabout' me, women are capable of toxic masculinity too, it's just comparatively uncommon, which is why it's (tendencies of aggression, violence, etc.) considered masculine in the first place and not feminine.

[@DivineFurry]

Yeah, it's based on behavior.. what has that got to do with others' approval.. They do what they believe is right for them

[@bluebutterfly5062]

@@realcaramelli7068 thank you for opening up. You have a great example as to why "toxic masculinity" exists in the first place. These are survival mechanisms. In the past, as a man, you could not afford to show case certain emotions, because you had to defend your community from nature or other rival communities, that were all just waiting for you to slip up so they can take everything you have. It makes sense why we pass these traits down, as for thousands of years, it was how we survived.

[@InfoAddict26]

Ppl never call something “healthy masculine”. They either appreciate it, or begrudgingly accept its benefit. Or they just flat out hate it regardless if they are an Uber feminist or something like that. Although I do agree, something being toxically masculine or “healthy masculine” does rely a lot on perception, sometimes there are things that are actually “toxic” or just bad that are more common in men and some good things that are also common in men ei healthy. It’s not always just perception.

[@Superhero-Motivation]

Healthy masculunity def gets thrown around sometimes, mostly at role models like Aragorn in LOTR or Maximus from Gladiator

[@InfoAddict26]

⁠@@Superhero-MotivationAh yeah i was thinking in a real life context. But honestly i do agree with those depictions

[@matteoinvernazzi4331]

he probably was talking about something he started in another video because in one video he wast talking about toxic masculinity and he was arguing how some women tend to use the term "toxic masculinity" to refer to men's bad traits not gender specific, like simply getting angry. If that's the context this short has some sense because there are clear examples of toxic masculinity besides subjective perception

[@InfoAddict26]

⁠​⁠@@matteoinvernazzi4331That would make sense. That’s why unless you have a dedicated short, it’s kinda hard to follow the context if you just ripe it out of a longer vid.

[@kylechaplain8073]

“It’s not always perception”. That is your perception 😂. And this is my perception. This is what he is talking about.

[@SkorpyoTFC]

I hate the term "toxic"; it has been used to death. I prefer the idea of masculine behavior being separated into the "mature" (healthy) and "immature". They point directly to the problem: that negative masculine traits are associable with incomplete growth. Much easier to work with.

[@kkkkkk6570]

so true, when a man does something negative, its because he's an immature/insecure man. Even if its not entirely negative in the first place. just dismisses men, its no different from people who say "women are too emotional" to dismiss women.

[@lokasen9417]

And this, fellas, is the reason why words and expressions have and should keep their clear definitions and context. In academic papers, it's supposed to be a bundle of socially harmful and destructive behaviors which are usually excused by others because the perpetrator is a boy or a man. For instance, a child shoving others and harming them or destroying things on a tantrum, "but it's just a boy". Another example being an adult harassing others and being menacing and pissed off when someone doesn't go out of their way to avoid bumping into them in a public space because he's a man and expects others to move around him and not the other way around regardless of any context. If a behavior that's universally recognized as bad and harmful to self and others is excused specifically because of the person's gender and the subjects of those harmful behaviors are the ones expected to suck it up (even when you're the one ending up harming yourself), then it's toxic behavior based on their belonging to a specific gender.

[@PeetBrits]

And if he's an a** but she likes him then he's called "misunderstood" 😂

[@sheolcodemonkey4027]

I've always felt like "toxic masculinity" is just toxicity in ways that are classically attributed to men, and the only reason a name was given to it is because people don't want to recognise women as having enough mental agency to do anything wrong except by accident, whereas men are expected to be in control and are therefore being bad people if their behaviour is toxic I remember seeing an article about "toxic femininity" after an incident on Love Island and it listed off a bunch of traits, then finished by reminding the reader that these are learned behaviours arising from societal expectations placed on women, and should be approached with empathy and compassion And like... you're not wrong, but... *gestures vaguely at the hypocrisy*

[@aliveslice]

People are perfectly aware of toxic masculinity being learned and there is no irony

[@sheolcodemonkey4027]

@@aliveslice they certainly don't approach it with compassion and empathy, they treat it with blame and shame

[@michaelhenault1444]

Correct. Be aware of your own self-esteem. Take responsibility.😊

[@relariistheparadox221]

As a non binary identifying person who grew up as a man (who has a more nuanced view on the gender dynamics), I can say it isn't just as external as toxic vs healthy masculinity comes down to approval of others. Toxic masculinity refers to a lot of behaviors that men are taught as masculine that, by necessity, put others around them down. Eg being "alpha"/being hyper-competitive in usually physical activities (putting competitors down and self above), trying to attract a partner (treating a partner as a prize, not a person), having to be heard/be right (usually by making sure that you are heard by others being silenced), being "a man" and telling others to (ignore your nonviolent emotions and perpetuate this to other men), present "manly", not effeminately (implying that there is something wrong with typically feminine physical/aesthetic traits but not with typically masculine ones, which is super culturally subjective anyways), etc. Healthy masculinity usually refers to traits also associated with men but tend to be more communal and mutually beneficial for everyone involved. Eg comradery/non-familial brotherhood (everyone involved is a part of the in-crowd), protecting the disadvantaged members of community (there isn't a pecking order, there is a pack that looks out for each other), being amicably confident and self-sure (so that when faced with others disagreeing with you, it becomes a difference of opinion, not an attack against your authority), etc.

[@noellebridgman-wile7056]

::applause::: That’s what it’s about. There’s not a perfect feminine corollary because our societies aren’t matriarchal, but the closest would be Professional Martyr Syndrome*: the woman who puts everyone else first (or the superficial appearance of it) then uses those unselfish moments as badges of honor, weaponizing them against people. It’s not a common dynamic in society at large, but there are certainly women who use this manipulation within their familial relationships; the “after allllll I’ve done for you” women. This is used primarily against her children, and sometimes against her spouse. (I’d hope this is less common as women in the whole have more sovereignty over when and if they marry and how many children they have, and when, but who knows.) *It’s my own term, not academic afaik.

[@InitialDraal]

@@noellebridgman-wile7056 it's called gynocentrism

[@phoenixmodellingphotography]

​@@noellebridgman-wile7056This is a 100% accurate description of my mother, well at least the mental disorder that became my mother, down to the "After alllll I've done for you". I believe the narcissist mother who doesn't have the capacity to love another human is far more common than we like to think, I mean even upwards of 50% of the mum demographic imo and that number is increasing ever higher with each generation. Not only that but it's a far more serious problem in our society than we imagine, and is one of the leading direct causes behind criminality as a whole

[@phoenixmodellingphotography]

That last part is also just imo obviously, but I should probably clarify

[@noellebridgman-wile7056]

@@InitialDraal What is? I was offering a feminine dynamic comparable to “toxic masculinity” that actually occurs within patriarchy: weaponizing a character trait attached to the societal definition of femininity (sacrifice, esp. as pertains to motherhood). Gynocentrism isn’t necessarily a negative: Labor & Delivery wards are gynocentric, but there’s no pervasive misuse of them against society’s or peoples’ well-being. Toxic masculinity fits that definition.

[@Human_01]

Thank you for your insight, Dr HG.🙏

[@Tyrannimarja]

Whether it’s toxic masculinity, slenderity, femininity, or anything else, I’d call it something along the lines of narcissistic body-mind narrative. When we apply, it’s not necessarily toxic to ourselves, but it definitely can be venomous to others.

[@ADHDDude]

Excellent point Alok, thank you for this.

[@ViktoryDragon]

Somewhere along the track of being autistic and nonbinary, I’ve entirely forgotten what it means to “be a man.” I just started picking traits that I liked or were useful, but with sub-characteristics to minimize particular kinds of toxicity that I didn’t already have “counters” for.

[@pwnwin]

Thankyou! I absolutely hated how often the word is thrown around as an attack! It’s just so ironic...

[@studentoflife8532]

Toxic masculinity is using traditional masculine traits to enforce your perverse perception on others. For example a toxic masculine man will shame other men for taking care of their looks instead of working on their insecurities. We see this a lot back in the 2010s with Justin Bieber and the members of one direction. So many broke bums that can't pull would call them gay. This is just one example but you get my point. It does not apply to every situation. A person can be toxic and a man but it does not automatically equate to toxic masculinity.

[@hermann5347]

The problem is that people only ever talk about toxic masculinity, never healthy masculinity. Or, god forbid, toxic femininity. Sure, in a purely academic sense you may find good usage of the term. But in practice it is simply used to shit on men, and insult them when they do anything that you don´t like. Most men recognize this, and that´s why they hate this term.

[@testing123.]

Toxic masc is more about beliefs that allows self-harm as a reasonable side-effect to being a "strong man" which also hurts other, as it imposes they have to deal with the problematic behavior. TM is like the "be a man, don't cry,use violence to solve and prove your point" beliefs. This can lead to not knowing your feelings (then your girlfriend has to teach you how to experience your feelings because you thought it was being a man to hide and not deal with them), or you have to learn not to get into physical fights with people who disagree with you, or you hide/deny your homosexuality because you want to be accepted by your peers who subscribe to the idea that its 'feminine' to be gay therefore its 'bad'. If you are a dude who is accepting of others & ideas different than you, understand its not bad to know your feelings or with having 'feminine' attributes (nurturing others)- then you have healthy masc.

[@angiecas8180]

This is why I think toxic masculinity is what society does to men, not what men themselves do.

[@L1mp1nB1zk1t]

In this day and age I am toxic simply on merit of existence. So you know what? I don't care. I do what I want and see fit and I don't care about the opinions of stupid people.

[@puppiesgoesrawr]

Is it though? It’s a shorthand for the harmful actions perpetuated by men who lauds excessive heteronormative machismo and sees non traditional expressions of gender as inferior. Examples where this culture used to flourish in: Frat hazing culture, pick up culture, sports culture, military culture. Most of these are traditional masculine spaces that has a long history of emotional, sexual, and mental abuse to both men and women. Those in power in those spaces would use violence, manipulation, intimidation tactics, blackmail, as well as peer pressure to prey on their fellow men and women. Sure, you can zoom in and point out the specific actions as manipulation, coercion, etc, but the term toxic masculinity is useful to point out negative patterns of behavior that flourishes in traditionally male spaces, often considered ‘manly’ by the perpetrator. I understand that you’re trying to reach another section of audience in KZbin, but In your effort for inclusion, take care not to harm the efforts other have made to improve the deplorable status quo that we used to be in. Don’t fall into the same quagmire that Jordan Peterson did. I would hate to see another mental health professional groveling to the manosphere for cash and clout.

[@pppp67567]

I think intelligent use of those phrases are more appropriately defined. I agree there are people throwing those terms around but they do so without engaging their brain.

[@markfergerson2145]

Never allow others to define you.

[@kalibbailey6219]

I mean, I've always seen toxic masculinity defined as self destrucfive. Toxic probably originated because it often poisions perception, relationships, etc

[@benjaminfrost2780]

And yet all I hear said about folks on the internet or otherwise is "toxic masculinity" or "simp" or "insert negative LGBTQIA+ term here". Never have I ever heard it called "Healthy Masculinity" by anyone but you.

[@logancary3188]

I appreciate what he's saying- true masculinity is healthy, and toxic masculinity is merely the lack of healthy masculinity. Bravery, sacrifice, integrity, etc. Anyone looking for the definition of masculinity should look to Christ, who modeled it for us perfectly.

[@istvanrabrady9160]

Not a whole lot of dos on masculinity, but there is an abundance of don'ts.

[@vvs7949]

Toxic behaviour is toxic. Got nothing to do with masculinity.

[@shiina29]

Does “red car” imply that all cars are red? No. Toxic mssculinity is just those ideas about masculinity that are toxic, like the idea that listening to or helping your female partner is being weak. It exists snd is a huge problem. It’s also a problem that people throw the word around because it distracts the discussion from the problem of toxic masculinity.

[@ginonunes843]

If that's the case just call it toxic behaviours. Because we all share the same behaviours how we perceive/act on them is what's different on an individualistic level ,if I ask you an example of toxic masculinity I can immediately give an example of the same behaviour on females but I guarantee you that is usually perceived as something positive lmao

[@Kivlor]

​@@ginonunes843they can't do that because it would mean accepting that not helping their _male_ partners is also toxic. And that would mean judging themselves.

[@natehollings]

"accountability? not for me! tehehehe"@@Kivlor

[@kylechaplain8073]

He is not saying “toxic masculinity” isn’t bad. He is saying that it is based on perception, which differs person to person.

[@vivvpprof]

Does the term "car pollution" imply every car is a pollutant? Especially when some cars are electric, and it's not just cars that produce pollution (individual home coal-fueled furnaces are by far worse)…? Answer that for yourself.

[@1dcondave]

The terms, toxic and masculinity have been juxtaposed for so long that it is hard to think of one without thinking of the other. And I for one have grown tired of it. Just because I am a man does not make me toxic or defective by default.

[@lukasmolcic5143]

I don't think its a matter of someone's perception, its determined by the outcomes, if you are hurting yourself or others, then it makes sense to call it "toxic".

[@maliksmith9003]

I feel like the concept of toxic masculinity is a bit more nuanced than that. And while I understand why, it's disquieting to consider that there are multiple spaces where colloquially toxic/positive masculinity is viewed in these terms.

[@maenad1231]

“Toxic” shouldn’t be conflated with dislike or disapproval. Toxins are harmful & hazardous. If it’s not harmful or hazardous to the self nor others then it can’t be “toxic masculinity”

[@nerissacrawford8017]

I would replace the term 'toxic' with 'limiting'. This can apply to both masculinity and femininity.

[@microcolonel]

Trying to fulfill a positive archetype in itself is not unhealthy; just accept that if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

[@digitaldonti]

So there’s no winning? Gotchu

[@vapx0075]

It's possible to be toxic to yourself without the matter being directly linked to masc/fem. There's also misandry and internalized misandry for men and misogyny and internalized misogyny for women. POV: Just being ace doesn't give you a free ticket out of ALL of the toxic thoughts. It's just a little bit less stressful trying to deal with it as you no longer have to be concerned about your toxicity negatively affecting someone else. It was very stressful trying to date, and it was even harder getting back into dating because of all of this. Just general blegh on these subjects.

[@vapx0075]

*Being ace is not a choice, it's a very helpful realisation*

[@SkulloMad]

A vibes based approach to masculinity

[@Rave.-]

Damn rarely do I disagree with Dr. K but I gotta give a flat out "No" to this one. Those are not good definitions of healthy and toxic masculinity. At all.

[@ashtonndlovu9470]

It's not abt it's meaning this is how ppl that use that term chose to use it

[@Rave.-]

@ashtonndlovu9470 yes this is called "defining your terms" and I starkly disagree with Dr. K's definition, "meaning", and "choice of use" which are all synonymous in this discussion.

[@Raymal100]

I think we need to dispense with categorical negativity. It would be so much more accepted if we focused our attention on what the positive ideal masculine is rather than pointing out the negative masculine. Not that you can't categorize the behavior as such but I think that the negatives should be generalized - behavior we wouldn't accept from anyone. Keeping the positives as categorized can help reinforce belonging and if done correctly, can cover a large spectrum of accepted behaviors. Or we could generalize positive behaviors and just focus on that

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

That's kind of like saying "Stop telling us what mushrooms to avoid, just list all good to eat ones", to avoid offending some snowflakes. People learn in different ways. The issue isn't that we discuss it. The issue is that one side vehemently refuses to accept the premise of poisonous mushrooms, and says suggesting any mushroom could be poisonous means that all mushrooms are poisonous and that's fungi hate.

[@XSquibX]

I am me. I don't care what names they throw at me at this point. There is so much name calling in today's world, I just don't care. I'm going to try and live a God fearing life and people are gonna trash my reputation. It is what it is...

[@jobob9643]

most people I know would just call you an asshole.

[@SeFu2006]

This is all true, you’re gonna piss off a lot of people and you’re gonna get praise from a lot of people

[@AdamPsencik]

For me tends to be 'if the qualities of masculinity that are generally praised by society are actually quite harmful to me as a man.' For example, stoicism through suffering is considered very praiseworthy by many societies as the definition of what it means to be a man, but it's keeping me from expressing my emotional needs, to being vulnerable in a way that would be healthier, then that expression of masculinity is toxic. It's not a perfect definition, but it certainly helps me parse 'is this version of manhood harmful to me' and 'should I change it'. Men often become versions of themselves that can survive the situation they're in, and while survival is a need, it is the lowest most basic of needs.

[@user-li5ly4xp1b]

It's not about what people think of me when I tell them the truth.

[@Vitriol-Divergent]

Never let someone who hasn't had to be you tell you how you're supposed to be.

[@getpsyked]

Why is this members only , i really want to see this , comforting for the situation im in

[@asddsa9468]

the cycle will turn. you can't stop it. run away.

[@TJ-vh2ps]

I have never defined myself or my actions in terms of their “masculinity”, good or bad. It has never been a useful or meaningful way to understand behavior to me. It is neither the root cause of nor the solution to issues. Toxic behavior is toxic however you label it.

[@MysterySteve]

While I think the term has been abused, I do think there's genuinely defined and well categorized toxic traits that happen to align very closely with how society generally views masculinity. Do I think it's a good term to use? Very carefully, but it's a tricky toad, because it can easily just end up associating masculinity with toxicity whether we intend to or not

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Nope. It's just culture war bs and strawmen. Its not deep, its not hard to understand, everyone is aware of the phenomenon, but people get offended by the term having the word "masculinity" in it - which is so ironic

[@OneDapperFrog]

To me, true masculinity isn't toxic, as one of the many aspects of true masculinity is service to others. What people refer to as toxic masculinity is either not masculinity, or a hatred of strong men.

[@chiwiria4342]

Such an oversimplified explanation.

[@vepply]

Unfortunately, this is short form content. As such, a lot of information gets left out. He does have more in depth videos on the channel which dive into this idea however

[@InitialDraal]

That's how most people, and the pseudo research, uses it though. So maybe you're the one reaching in its definition.

[@lukatosic09]

That's kind of the point, shedding light on how the term is dumbed down in discussions

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

​@@lukatosic09 the term isn't dumbed down. Anti-feminists deliberately obfuscate, muddy the waters, on what these established terms mean, and strawman them, to avoid having a discussion in good faith. The term isn't that to understand, but people do love to pretend it is to shut down the discussion on what actually is hurting men, so they can instead pretend feminists all hate men, by suggesting this term means "men are toxic" (it doesn't) - so they can then wage a culture war in resiezing ground won over by feminists. Anti-feminists hate to live in a world where women have agency. This is how they gain political support to push back. Its called lying.

[@DukeWooze]

I tell ya what's toxic. Whatever I leave in the commode in the morning. :)

[@MrPigeonnn]

So, there's no such thing as toxic masculinity. Masculinity is a positive trait that's always healthy. A person being toxic is just that - a toxic person. Whether male or female.

[@GLsJAwtomatica]

usually dr k is spot on but I totally disagree with him on this one ; healthy masculinity is doing what's right even when it's unpopular, not seeking validation from other men, and protecting the vulnerable...toxic masculinity is stereotyping women, attacking / demonizing vulnerable minority groups, feeling compelled to conform to strict gender roles, and needlessly dominating others

[@bdnnijs192]

Who decides what is right? How do women who attack minorities fit in the narative of toxic masculinity?

[@Creativedork32]

I could say the same about psychology and it’s pathologizing of how one should react to trauma. “Healthy” is based entirely on social approval. How do you diagnose survival? It would be abysmal to say that the way men are conditioned to suppress emotions other than anger, does not lead to aggression, dominance, and proving one’s masculinity. “Toxic” is not just anything you don’t understand or want to understand.

[@ThisChangeIsAwful]

hell, we should probably just get rid of all definitions for all words since we will never all truly come up with a consensus for what anything means.

[@superdupeninja8149]

So no matter what you do…you’re gonna upset someone

[@puzzellp9541]

People will do that yes. But Dr. K maybe read more about Judith Butler and other Feminism socioligists to understand what "toxic masculinity" really means. There is a true meaning behind this word wich most people don't use propperly and I think it could be rly interesting to you since it has to do a lot with functionalism and how the theories of how a man/a women should be started out and where they are now.

[@BigLeagueChew11]

Disagree with studying Judith Butler, I think the philosopher Slavoj Zizek has a better understanding of sex and gender than Butler.

[@NinjaKuma]

What about toxic femininity?

[@Mooncricketstinks]

Now let's talk about toxic and healthy femininity.......i'll wait.

[@doremysheep7864]

That's why I stopped worrying about "being a man" Everyone has a different interpretation of what is a man and I'm not going to stress myself out trying to please EVERYONE hence why I just say "I'm not a man". I don't even SEE myself as a man and idc

[@waterfallxo320]

we really shouldn’t talk about these things in the term of gender. we should just say if you hurt someone you need to figure out how to interact with others in a better way

[@sebdapleb1523]

I always thought that toxic masculinity wasn't a characteristic that a person has but more of a society wide issue where masculinity is toxic FOR men, like body standards or emotional repression or something like that. idk

[@DrPebis]

Im toxic but it isnt from masculinity, i just never was given any worth from people, so i havent been able to give myself as much worth as i deserve, im getting better but sometimes, i just wish i never existed because i think it would be better

[@mark-147]

However almost no one uses the term healthy masculine

[@klutzkoady4996]

Maybe the concept of healthy masculinity can also be bad cuz it can be unachievable sometimes? Depending on how its defined

[@notyourusualsuspect6175]

As a man I do not care what people think of me. I'm a good person and I do good, so I do not give a sliver of a thought about what random might think.

[@shoug6555]

Try subtracting identity from gender. If you think of masculinity as something that exists *outside* the identity, it becomes a lot clearer what toxic masculinity really is. You would not say, "If you are a man and you do something I do not like, that's toxically masculine," because you're right, that does seem arbitrary. But if you think of masculinity as a set of traits defined arbitrarily, by God, if you will, or the forces of Nature which produced our sexually dimorphic characteristics, and not as a fundamental property of one's identity or as even as *virtuous*, everything becomes clearer. One bears no responsibility to strive to entirely embody any one of the genders. If you do something masculine, that's merely a masculine detail about your life. If you do something feminine, that's merely a feminine detail of your life. If you are empathic and compassionate and sensitive, that's feminine and that's fine. If you are stolid and utilitarian and strong, that's masculine and that's also fine. Masculine and feminine spirits work through us all, they aren't necessary aspects of our identities toward which we need to strive. There are good and bad things about both, and those good or bad things should not be *pre-scribed,* rather they should be *de-scribed.* If you are a person, and you do something like act aggressively or bury your emotions, and this has a negative outcome, and THE REASON YOU DID IT was because you FELT LIKE YOU NEEDED BE MASCULINE, then that's toxic masculinity. Masculinity and Femininity aren't defined by just... things men and women do. They are defined by the things that men and women do *most differently, across time, across populations.* They are should not be treated as ideals, they should be treated as complex, messy, multifaceted, abstract, almost divine symbols, something like gods in polytheisms. A women can be toxically masculine, a man can be toxically feminine.

[@ryanwinn8731]

It's an attempt to control men through shame and manipulation. If you are being a good servant who would never dream of doing something in your own interests, you are "good " but if you dedicate your time to what would actually be in your own self interest, you are "bad"

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Wroong. I focus on my self and that has literally nothing to do with toxic masculinity. Google the definition. Don't be so confident in how wrong you are while you're so intellectually incurious.

[@ryanwinn8731]

@@7PlayingWithFire7 I didn't say "focus on your self", I said doing things that are in your own interests

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

@@ryanwinn8731 Yes. And that's not toxic masculinity. Self-defeating is very big on toxic masculinity. I mean sure, you could claim that r*pe is for your interest, but I doubt that's the type of stuff you meam

[@ryanwinn8731]

@@7PlayingWithFire7 idk what being self defeating has to do with masculinity at all. Toxic masculinity isn't a synonym for "negative." You'll notice anytime someone says "be a man," or "that's what a real man does," it's always something related to serving others

[@ryanwinn8731]

@@7PlayingWithFire7 I don't take the concept of toxic masculinity seriously, precisely because it was invented by people who want to more effectively control men. My overall point is that in our society, males are not considered men unless they sacrifice all their own self interests for the benefit of people who would never do it for us, and don't appreciate it anyway. The social contract is broken

[@KarnodAldhorn]

We are not as smart as we think.

[@fishboy3612]

I saw a little tag at the bottom of the video that says you’r a licensed medical proffeshinal in the U.S.. I wonder if and hope they start adding these tags for people with other degrees in other professions. Then maybe you can filter by specific profeshinal status when looking for a video on a topic.

[@obitouchiha2581]

Whenever a reprehensible action is being taken we can all agree that it is malicious to distinguish between things like white/black; American/Mexican; Christian/Muslim/Jew; Heterosexual/homosexual so on and so forth. But It is completely fine to shame men and call toxic masculinity meanwhile women are not even in the same REALM of criticism as males are. It is actually beyond pathetic to have such double standards and bear so much animosity for each other.

[@jakiedark]

The term "As a man you should be" or "True masculinity is" is for me already at its base toxic. Maybe the most wholesome advice follows, it is still dictating what someone should do based solely on their gender. While leaving out the reasoning behind, and thus option to make a informed choice. Our actions should be informed by the consequences, the weight of our actions. Understanding, wisdom and knowledge. Never someone saying “Oh, you’re X so you should do Y.”

[@nolanscripture]

Doesn't this mean that "toxic" and "healthy" versions of masculinity are subjective or even arbitrary due to being based strictly on individual perception?

[@amandamorrison4139]

Toxic Masculinity is not the arguement that men are toxic by simply being men. it is a critique of the way men are expected to adhere to certain gender roles within society at large that fit within a traditionalist framework that forces men to be dominant and powerful, which in turn, forces men to limit their emotional range down to faux stoicism and anger

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

There's no point. We've been trying to correct this right wing strawman since before 2016. They don't care about facts, or engaging in good faith. They don't even care about understanding vocabulary.

[@andyshinskate]

God made universal spiritual moral standards that says truth does not care about your feelings. You have to do what is correct even though people persecute and insult you. Be brave and courageous!

[@bradonhoover3002]

"Sometimes I think I'm putting out toxic masculinity, even when I'm not, and that pretty toxic masculinity of me"

[@theatheistpaladin]

I don't think its approval based. It's pro vs anti socal.

[@Sewblon]

I don't think that masculinity can be divided into a "toxic" and "healthy" binary. I could never figure out how to make it work. But then again, I am transgender. I was never going to figure out how to make it work.

[@rizbaltech]

Don't things that are toxic get passed over more the more attractive someone is?

[@frishter]

We really don't acknowledge the good in others enough in society.

[@slothguy8826]

I hate the term toxic masculinity as a whole because it implies the ability for masculinity to be toxic. There is nothing toxic about masculinity, only toxic people

[@JohnCunningham-sy5ug]

Yup a******* are like opinions.Everybody has one

[@cherubin7th]

Even for the same thing.

[@NoblesseOblige-17]

Not a fan of that definition, kinda muddies the waters around what the term "toxic masculinity" is generally, and quite validly, used for.

[@zbeatza9910]

We should all aspire to become the double alpha. 🗿

[@KxNOxUTA]

Not how that label works. It's not about what I like, but also heavily on what is actually good for you or not. Aka I label it toxic masculine if it is archaically masculine behaviour that deals external or internal harm to ppl. Women can display toxic masculinity, too. Men can display toxic and healthy feminine aspects, too. Non-binary part of the aspects spectrum (also positive and negative) is incredibly ignored overall. The reason genders were even a thing connected to these aspects, is cause they ended up being more observable in certain groups of ppl cause we made gender based structural societal differences between ppl. And thus associating principles with said groups of ppl because easier to explain when teaching them and where to look for said behaviour modelling.

[@InitialDraal]

It is how that works. The term is almost never used in a positive way but always to try and control men.