Toyota's New Car Scares the Crap Out of Me

[@scottykilmer]

Toyota Just Got Fined Billions for Not Making More Electric Cars: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmmum6umnr6HrtE Thanks for watching! Like and Subscribe for More Vids Daily ► kzbin.info/door/uxpxCCevIlF-k-K5YU8XPA ⬇️Scotty’s Top DIY Tools: 1. Bluetooth Scan Tool: amzn.to/2nfvmaD 2. Mid-Grade Scan Tool: amzn.to/33dKI0k 3. My Fancy (Originally $5,000) Professional Scan Tool: amzn.to/31khBXC 4. Cheap Scan Tool: amzn.to/2D8Tvae 5. Dash Cam (Every Car Should Have One): amzn.to/2YQW36t 6. Basic Mechanic Tool Set: amzn.to/2tEr6Ce 7. Professional Socket Set: amzn.to/2Bzmccg 8. Ratcheting Wrench Set: amzn.to/2BQjj8A 9. No Charging Required Car Jump Starter: amzn.to/3i7SH5D 10. Battery Pack Car Jump Starter: amzn.to/2nrc6qR ⬇️ Things used in this video: 1. Common Sense 2. 4k Camera: amzn.to/2HkjavH 3. Camera Microphone: amzn.to/2Evn167 4. Camera Tripod: amzn.to/2Jwog8S 5. My computer for editing / uploading: amzn.to/301tYt9 Subscribe and hit the notification bell! ► goo.gl/CFismN As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

[@wawalker1]

This is crap what the government is doing to force EVs 8n the public that doesn't want nor can afford them. Too expensive, too heavy, too dangerous, too complex, not proven to last, nor to solve climate change.

[@sparkythesecretsquirrel4013]

Stand firm Toyota!

[@theshootindutchman]

I love it!!

[@jf8085]

My GF just picked up a nightshade edition Venza yesterday- despite being a BMW M5 owner, I’m very impressed by how smooth and seamless the hybrid drivetrain is… plus the build quality really is more like Lexus. Really nice SUV, of course Scotty’s unbiased endorsement means a lot too. High quality car for the price 👍🏻

[@MattCampbelification]

incredible vehicles, made in japan. love these vehicles. i sold one today for around 53k , a limited

[@ohcanadaeh]

Venza is designed and built as a reliable and practical luxury SUV. It doe not have the fancy tech, badge heritage and sporty driving dynamics that most luxury car buyers are looking for. Therefore it is difficult for the Mercedes, BMW or Audi owners to even consider buying a Venza. To them the Venza is just another Toyota that dressed up into a luxury vehicle. In my case I think the Venza is 90-95% there as far as being a luxury vehicle, better value than the German alternative, and it does not draw any attention while it is on the road which is all good with me.

[@mpbudd]

We bought our 2022 Venza new and average 45 mpg. Love this vehicle!

[@seymourdickens8607]

The venza is awesome. Its a luxurious insulated rav4 basically.

[@michaeltroster9059]

A friend of mine just got one a couple of months ago and he and his wife love it.

[@Kjhgr01]

We have a 2022 Rav4 Hybrid, we can drive between 0->30mph in neighborhood environments for a good mile, sometimes two! The vehicle even switches to EV if you're on the cruise control at 50mph going downhill. We're averaging 42.1 mpg at the pump over 31K miles!

[@robertgreenhalge1708]

Glad to hear this. My 2019 Fusion Hybrid uses the Prius hybrid system and can easily get 60mpg in city driving. In big cities you can almost run entirely on EV given all the red lights and regenerative braking.

[@robh2556]

Just bought a 2024 Venza literally right off the truck. So far loving it.

[@Diggy104]

Another selling point of the Venza. They are all made in Japan.

[@Chi_Chi34]

Good information! THANKS. 👏

[@tomasso883]

The fit and finish on my 2023 limited is absolutely flawless

[@growshack9067]

as is ny 2025 Corolla Hatchback XSE. if your VIN starts with a "J" its made in Japan 🎉

[@mrfriz4091]

Scotty, Toyota’s eCVT is an all gear transmission. Nothing like Nissan, Subaru and most others on the road. I have one and it is great!

[@johnbrews9724]

Very enthusiastic video. If you’re sold, move fast-no more being made. I drive the 2021 version, and I agree with Scotty that ride is good and pick-up is good, and rear cross traffic warning is good, and gas mileage is great. My model has too much road noise on the highway. Also, don’t like the nav system - use Waze instead. Although big on the outside, I have to duck when I get in evens though driver seat is set low as possible. But on passenger side seat cannot be lowered and I bump my head getting in. So mostly a good car. Some annoyances. Not as much fun as BMW X1, but way better mileage and way better ride.

[@rxonmymind8362]

Measured road noise on DB app. 72-76. That's not bad.

[@aeronYTco]

You are really one honest auto reviewer/mechanic Uncle Scotty. Keep it up!

[@wimschoenmakers5463]

You can't go wrong with a Toyota hybrid. My Auris ( baby Prius ) is now 14 years old, and runs like day one. Even runs with the first battery.

[@1lecher]

I have had the 2022 Venza XLE for about 2 years now and I'm loving it. The acceleration is more than adequate enough, drive is smooth, gas mileage is amazing for a SUV. My only gripe is storage space up front, not much of it.

[@mannfan12]

I have a '21 Highlander Hybrid and absolutely love it. 3-row SUV, 34 mpg

[@WillieBHardigan03]

Whoever has one of these is pretty lucky! As far as a reliable SUV hybrid it doesn't really get much better!

[@3kingkool]

Appreciate this, Scotty

[@wurly164]

I bought a 2024 venza limited. It's a fantastic car

[@Chris-bp9sh]

Eclipse Viewing Roof. Nice!

[@daytripper1860]

Just bought a '21 xle after my daughter bought a '23 earlier in the year. I had never heard of it. Love the car. I'm getting 45 mpg. Rights nice. Looks great. Bought it over a Rav4 hybrid.

[@anthonyholleran9378]

Suddenly, when I witness, "Uncle Scotty" pressing that sun shade button, the Oldies song, "Here Comes The Sun," by The Beatles, pops in my head and I began to sing it out loud. 😎

[@lumaseed6490]

I always enjoy when Scotty praises the hybrid system, makes me feel comfortable about my purchase. 😊

[@sammyt3514]

This Venza is the best looking crossover SUV Toyota makes imo, and that includes the Lexus models. Just a great looking car from every angle.

[@tjhoward8412]

Perfect car for the Solar Eclipse if your destination is cloudy and you need to get to better weather! Even if you get stuck in traffic! 😊

[@Kurtdog63]

Put together a package of a Toyota Corolla Cross on their website and it came with a price of 25k. When I searched dealer inventory, every model was in the 30's. That's a big jump.

[@luisandrewmiranda4207]

I think its bc of the touch screen and the new sunroof tech 😅😅😅

[@leechburglights]

Dealers will never carry a base model without some upgrades. You must order what you want and pay the sticker.

[@WYATTFC99]

It would be nice if you could get it right from the website and cut out the dealer markups...

[@Kurtdog63]

@@WYATTFC99 If it wasn't for warranty work, that would probably happen.

[@craigsampson3386]

​@@Kurtdog63 how does Tesla do it then? They don't have dealerships right?

[@stevestrawmatt4738]

I bought the a Venza XLE used (20,000 miles on it) a week ago, really nice car. My wife has a Sienna with the same drive train, Toyota hybrids are fantastic

[@davsny5]

My Israeli mechanic says that Toyota and Lexus are the best cars to have. I had a 2019 Toyota Camry and had no serious issues with it and drove great and had more than ample horsepower over 200+ and 184lbs of torque. Only thing was two days after my mom died, the car died, as well, spooky! I would love to get my hands on a limited trim fully loaded Venza before they are all gone for good. Sadly, I have 10 months left on my Mazda, but they are giving great deals at Toyota for this vehicle. Its like a Lexus version of a Toyota Crossover and its a beautiful looking vehicle.

[@alexanderschklair1945]

Some people are worried because it’s Venza last year. No worries you will still able to get parts and service is mechanical twin of RAV4, Candy and Lexus NX. Additionally for resale value will be better with time, look up how expensive still the old Venza on used market. 😊

[@tomasso883]

The ECVT contains no belts or chains it’s just all metal gears

[@lawrencefranck9417]

Then it’s nota CVT. E just holds at specific spot on the clutches.

[@tomasso883]

@@lawrencefranck9417 ECVT’s don’t have any clutches whatsoever. It’s all ⚙️ gears.

[@Modeltrainscarsstereos614]

25 hybrid Camry is gonna be something else. Good move for going all hybrid no more trash 8 speed automatic. Can’t wait to see how it does in consumer reports testing

[@calimilk1113]

This is why Toyota is #1.. quality like no other.

[@joeslish-p1p]

in the past

[@decorelone51]

​@@joeslish-p1pIs Mazda just as good or better.

[@alb0zfinest]

Idk, Mazda is still made in Japan. Definitely trust that over American or Mexican production.

[@sypoth]

Yes "Quality". Like the "Quality" that led to a mass recall of all their vehicles in the 2010s. "Quality" that leaves many of them rotting in people's yards from expensive component failures. "Quality" o and G a level that nobody, and I do mean NOBODY in my Family or among my friends will ever own one ever again because the only thing reliable about them is the constant need of repairs.

[@DontCryAboutIt]

Subaru too

[@Griffen427]

Love ya Scotty, however the Hyundai/Kia hybrids which have been on the market for years, utilize a hybrid system similar to Toyota's but coupled to a traditional, torque-converted 6-speed transmission.

[@robitaill3]

RAV4 hybrid and the Venza are similar size. But the Venza is much fancier

[@Nickoloadavideos]

If I drive my venza like a grandpa and conditions are right I can get 50mpg in mine on some trips! Love it! Also all late model Venza are made in Japan! Sad they are stopping these in the USA.

[@VVida21]

I have been thinking of getting a Toyota SUV however.. I do not like the interior of the RAV4 so seeing the Venza makes me hopeful!

[@mattwernecke2342]

They have newer lithium batteries aftermarket for the prius. Save about 1k over oem. 415k on my Prius

[@slimmishler5525]

I got a 2021 for my daughter. It’s basically a Lexus. It’s made so good and fun to drive.

[@ln128]

"you can have a hot fanny" 😂😂😂 you just make my day- thanks Scitty

[@Lessontobe]

Great car/suv but the infotainment system still looks like a mounted on the dash after thought.

[@santaclause2875]

Nice car, but hey Scotty, the great majority of car buyers are so fricken SICK and tired of nothing but black, black, black interiors. It's ridiculous how car manufacturers (all of them) are so stuck on everything BLACK. Come on, offer us some other color combinations.

[@mindfullymellow2323]

💯 recently bought a new Mazda with parchment (off white) seating.

[@pagodad8079]

You can get this with a gray interior.

[@rudyb2755]

Venza is a really nice car, currently I have a 2022 Venza. One thing I don't like is that the two front windows have a UVU coating on the glass which you don't want to Tint without being damaged. Most window tint locations won't want to tint you're windows because of the coating will Easily scratch off the coating. Some of the Lexus vehicles have the same coating on the windows, just an FYI.

[@alexmendez3681]

Good to know.

[@stephenhall3515]

I like how SK covers everything important and hasn't lost his Texas accent. I have to turn the volume down though!

[@adwenb]

My 2022 Prius XLE ' has averaged 58.8 mpg so far over 27,000 miles. About 50-50 highway to city as I live 35 miles outside of Phoenix metro.

[@SecurityZone1]

My 2017 Camry Hybrid XLE is a full hybrid non plug in and my battery is in the same location as that vehicle on the inside

[@dindog22]

built in eclipse glasses. nice

[@MrPoppyDuck]

A sunroof that doesnt open is a deal killer for me. A sunroof is nice to get the heat out if the car in the summer when you kick the AC on. Plus the fresh air is nice too.

[@m1kcan1]

I prefer a car with no sunroof and a steel roof

[@brucebaum1458]

Had sun roofs in last 15 yrs think I’ve used it twice, can’t buy a premium car with straight steel roof, annoying.

[@mitchellbroaddus9120]

I live in Texas. Could only use a sunroof a couple of months a year. My 2020 Platinum Tundra has one. Never used it.

[@peterpanini96]

It sucks when sunroof drain plugs clogs up all the time with retention leaves. 😂😂😂 yu get watercolors then... when you're already frozen...

[@janc.8197]

@@brucebaum1458 This one has that panoramic roof as an option. So you can get them without it.

[@dooscar]

I love my Venza!

[@Broncort1]

The middle view screen still looks like an afterthought….like it was screwed to the dash…lol

[@robertgreenhalge1708]

My biggest peeve with current Toyota interiors...as well as other brands. Vehicles that have the screens designed into the dash are MUCH more appealing.

[@Brararaf101]

33.1 my gas rav 4 city highway plus winter iddle I do drive soft who needs hybrid

[@memcdm]

Love our 2021 Rav4. 42 - 44 avg MPG for the last 2 years. Quick enough. Ride / handling balance is near perfect for this class of car. Zero repairs to date. 😅

[@joeslish-p1p]

what is the point of a sunroof you can not open and the dash looks cheap with the screen screwed to the top of the dash.

[@ky314]

To let light into your car

[@ryanbrandt5404]

Toyota needs to put that 2.5 into the corolla or bring back celica/matrix. And of course mate it to a real 7 speed manual with limited slip diff. That car would get near 40mpg, last forever and be fun to drive. No need for hybrid, cvt, auto, ev, fix or repair daily junk.

[@fredjoel8113]

I'm sure many will like it and will buy for the Toyota name as well as the razzle-dazzle technology. I've owned several Toyotas and still am an owner, so I took one for a test drive. Hybrid drivetrain was reasonably seamless but otherwise vehicle provided a numb driving experience. Didn't like 'plastic feeling' interior and large screen that looked like an after-thought. Not for me.

[@tomasso883]

These are high quality vehicles and I would not be surprised the 22, 23, 24’s become cult cars since this model is being discontinued.

[@oscarnieto8635]

Awesome mr C K.grear car good información

[@AbrahamYunis]

If the hybrid battery breaks why can’t one just switch to using the 2.5L engine to run it in the interim? Say, between hybrid battery repair of that ever happens.

[@garylee2976]

Hi Scott thank you for all your information and content please keep up with your work and God bless you and your family and friends.😅

[@martykong3592]

:) THANKS for sharing! NICE RIDE indeed, but Corolla Cross may be better buy...ALL the BEST!

[@louisstennes3]

We own, a bought new '18 RAV4 XLE hybrid and love it. Although it is the last generation I like it better than the new ones but that is me. Anyway I hardly see a Venza on the road and I think I know why. They can cost quite a but more than a comparable RAV4 so it really is a waste to spend the extra money and there is more cargo space in a RAV4. Venza is a really good vehicle but for the money buy the comparable Lexus model.

[@lawrencefranck9417]

My Malibu with 2.5 ecotec got an easy 38 mpg without CVT and hybrid complexity

[@JizzleCX]

That cable you showed corroding was on the regular hybrid Rav4, was a huge issue, Toyota issued a half assed fix with so drain holes in the cover of the cable. Junk design

[@ScarScarJetJT]

Toyota announced Venza will be discontinued in 2025. Will I have trouble finding parts in the future? Does Venza shared most parts with RAV4 and Lexus?

[@garyworokevich2524]

The two channels I like to watch for all advice with cars. Sarah-n-Tuned and Scotty Kilmer. You both like the ECVT ....and explained it well.

[@PHILLIPS8822]

I get 39 mpg in my 2017 Corolla XSE

[@bondgabebond4907]

We get that on a Honda Civic.

[@isaachunt5799]

i get 60mpg from my toyota aygo 1.0.

[@Aman_nyc]

They stopping making more of these ! Is this still good buy for next 6 years ?

[@komradkolonel]

From my experience Toyotas aren't sexy or glamourous but they are about as reliable and well made as you can get. I would love to see them bring the Celica back and make it RWD like it was in the late 70s and early 80s. I really loved those. Since they make that BRZ/GT86 with Subaru I really doubt they will do that though.

[@sypoth]

Tell that to every single perfusion who owned one that got a lost of safety and reliability recalls. Then go to each and every person that has several in their yard rotting away. Better yet, offer to start paying for the repairs on these hunks of junk. My dad would appreciate you paying for the 8 engines he put in his little pickup, my brother would be dancing for getting something back from the 6 transmissions his Tacoma went through, and my niece would find a lovely use for the cost of the Three front ends her car went through. That doesn't even touch what my friends went through with theirs. Pieces of junk.

[@KellyPhinney-ko2tr]

My 2021 Venza has cooled seats and we avg 43 mpg

[@reygalinato]

Hello there, would you recommend Toyota Klugger (highlander) 2013 model to buyers? im planning to buy it

[@AnythingJW]

this car will be discontinued to make room for the Crown SUV at even a higher price

[@loufaiella3354]

Same for Camry.Hybrid only.

[@ThomasKing19933]

Toyota is still the best car company.

[@shadraqueagbali3528]

Okay

[@aggelosbranikas4446]

That’s correct

[@MrCovert23]

Company and dealerships are two different types things . We the people have been screwed by greedy stealerships and increased msrp

[@Liquidskys88]

Go toyota...used.

[@dicegamenetwork]

I would say Porshe is.

[@wessreiley8275]

Ha Scotty I just bought a 24 Camry TRD with the v6. Since the new gen will only be hybrid and 4 cyl. What do you think? Was that a good choice.

[@jessewynne8193]

The VENZA handles and rides better then the rav4 cuz the rav4 handles and brakes and rides very truck like granted the newer RAV4’s are better riding but venza is still better equipped

[@jamess1534]

does this model have the "start/stop" feature that shuts the engine off, and restarts it at stop lights? I would have to pull the fuse on that feature!

[@rachelbrinkley3240]

Is this better than the new GR corolla though🤔

[@streamingvideo6654]

Once of my dream cars. Awesome car!

[@truthbaetold]

the Venza Nightshade doesnt have tbe JBL sound system

[@jpdoc5722]

sloping rear roof stakes away cargo space .. thus , RAV4 base hybrid for the win 🏆

[@williamcollins9254]

SCOTTIE for President!!!

[@Kreuzauge]

I love my Venza - I got one without the stupid magic roof fortunately.

[@WokeisaJoke0522]

Ive owned both. a 2023 and now a 2024. I like the panoramic sunroof, but is it worth the money?No. We live in Florida and will definitely use it in the summer when the sun isn't as strong. Limited supply of Venzas means we had no choice.

[@erik7747]

My Avalon Hybrid has 250k miles with original CVT tran and original hybrid battery. Phenomenal car.

[@oreally8605]

What year?

[@erik7747]

@@oreally8605 2014

[@erik7747]

@@oreally8605 2014

[@erik7747]

Flushed tran every 60k miles oil changed every 5k and 80% highway miles. I put on after market struts and suspension at 150k miles and it drives smoother now then when i bought it.

[@strek200]

2024 is the last year for the Venza.

[@cicada9471]

It's now called a Toyota Crown.

[@garystar1592]

@@cicada9471 It is being replaced by the 2025 Crown Insignia returning to the former shape/vocation

[@Nightwish1773]

I'm so sad will I do with my life ? I can't function without a Toyota! 🤣😜😅🤪🤪

[@janc.8197]

@@garystar1592 Crown Signia (but it's a larger car than the current Venza)

[@robertgreenhalge1708]

The Venza never really made sense in the lineup. It is essentially a restyled Camry costing a lot more money. So most people it would seem either saved money and bought a Camry, or if they wanted the crossover styling, went for a Rav4 or Highlander. The Venza was Toyota's version on the Ford Edge, which surprisingly was much more successful in sales. The Edge never made sense to me either.

[@digitalman6603]

My ford fusion gets 48-50 MPG

[@robertgreenhalge1708]

For reals. In city driving, my Fusion can easily get 60mpg during spring, summer, and fall.

[@zackmax7184]

When Nissan was Datsun, they made pretty Good Cars.

[@patrickchubey3127]

How have you overlooked the times when you told us NOT to buy hybrids because of the two powertrain systems that can go wrong instead of one? I haven't forgotten that which is why I won't buy a hybrid. Besides, I've heard too many horror stories about hybrid battery fires, malfunctions and horrendous battery replacement costs. Nope, one powertrain system is quite enough for me.

[@travisrhodes1068]

Scotty - Ford CEO say the company is going out of business !!! I hate those bogus proclamation in thumbnails

[@ntsecrets]

Scotty doesn’t keep up with advances with technology. And this car he featured is obsolete.

[@FriedGreenCarrots]

Its a money pit for a extra 10 to 15 miles of gas to much extra components, more expensive, it just doesn't make sense to even get one

[@patrickchubey3127]

That's what other people are saying too, the extra cost and complexity aren't worth the savings.

[@ntsecrets]

@@patrickchubey3127 well there are much more efficient hybrids but if you’re looking to save on gas and maintenance just get an EV.

[@ms.b9093]

The Venza is now discontinued going forward for the American market!

[@kaffeineated]

This video is so chaotic but I love it 😂

[@krecikowi]

You pay easily 3k more for hybrid, that is about 1000 gallons of gas. You can drive good 30k miles on it.

[@FliesGoodbyes]

I do prefer 360 parking

[@occckid123]

I have 120k on my sienna hyvrid right now awd.

[@brianb82328]

I can't decide between this Venza and the Camry XSE 😭😭😭

[@GardenerEarthGuy]

Why do new cars all have a television in them on the dash?

[@robertsmith7580]

Technology is nice until it starts screwing up !

[@HalfassDIY]

Wow, thats almost as good as the mileage I get with my 20 year old tdi !

[@OldDood]

When we bought our 2022 RAV4 Limited Hybrid I was seriously thinking of getting a Venza. I really like them. (At least $10K more though) HOWEVER, they lack the Knobs for the HVAC system. I really like the Knobs on the RAV4. Easy to find and use without having to actually look for them. I can just reach over and use them. Other then that I like the Venza for all the things that Scotty was speaking about. Both vehicles are very similar in Gas Mileage. BUT the Venza would be a Quieter Ride and a Smoother Ride then my RAV4.

[@Nightwish1773]

I'm very proud of you!

[@stevepowsinger733]

It would be nice if the radio was completely separate from the gps and all. It’s hard to switch back and forth. 10:54

[@WokeisaJoke0522]

Rav4 starts at 32k and Venza at 35k. So for three thousand more, you get a nicer looking, more unique, quieter and luxurious vehicle. More cargo space in back with Rav4 BUT the LE Venza has KNOBS and physical buttons. Venza LE wins! I owned one and then traded it up for a NX 350h because I am a snob, I guess and I like the extra 21 HP.

[@davsny5]

I really want one before the 2024 models are all gone since they discontinued this model for 2025 and replaced it with the Crown, which I am not a fan of much.

[@artichokedip5.972]

If there’s anything that shocks the whole car industry it’s you Scotty keep it up!

[@flyboy7588]

Is it smart to buy one now that they are being discontinued after 2024?????

[@sailboatlighthouse]

Absolutely, has all the components of the Rav 4 and Lexus nx 350h, the value in the limited is unbelievable, if you want a car for 300k, buy it and never worry about anything.

[@rickbar123]

Get a Mitsubishi Mirage. Philadelphila to Wildwood NJ. 44 mpg.

[@scotttheniceguy]

44mpg in the middle of the summer with bumper-to-bumper traffic on 55 & 47? 😲

[@rickbar123]

@@scotttheniceguy It was cold as can be. No traffic at 6 am. I take the spare tire out and carry a kit. My Smart did not have a spare so I’m comfortable with a kit. When I was a kid I worked at a Texaco. Plugged a few. I could have gotten better but the wife had to come along. She’s still on the skinny side.

[@rickbar123]

@@scotttheniceguy You know Wildwood?? Greatest Place on Earth. Says so over the Boardwalk.

[@jessewynne8193]

This one sounds less insulated then my step dads platinum Venza And he has gotten 44 mpg and that’s in hilly roads of CT. And doesn’t struggle. Unlike his 09 Honda CRV would always downshift going up the slightest hills and he didn’t like it. That was his only complaint about the CRV it was always up/down shifting

[@wskripka1]

Where are they built. ?

[@miteco1]

Venza is JDM. Made in Japan

[@lorenschwiderski]

The base model is under $38K. Sadly it is now discontinued by Toyota. The Venza attempt #2 is likely its last one. I guess people want a more square SUV.

[@flyboy7588]

I believe the main negative aspectof the vehicle is it has the lowest storing capacity in the segment even though it is nearly equal in size to the RAV4. The designers could have easily addressed this by modifying the slope of the rear roof line. I'm still seriously considering getting myself a Venza. Looked at the Honda CR-V hybrid but it does not come with a spare tire. Talk about shortsightedness on the part of Honda designers. Just lazy. They just used the same design as the gas version and put the battery where the spare would go. Dumb, just dumb.