Trail Braking for new riders? It is more complicated than the best method.

[@CanyonChasers]

@MCrider First! I'm delighted that we are having this conversation! Like Nick, I've found teaching Trail Braking to new riders is not a big deal. Simply: Gently slow until you can see your exit. I find that new riders tend to pick it up faster/easier than when I used to teach SLPR with MSF. While MSF deserves credit for evolving their curriculum, I think they are evolving too slow. If MSF would simply add "Roll when you can see your exit " I'd be absolutely chuffed. But MSF isn't the only program out there teaching, and some states (Oregon) go one step further and use Slow, Look, Roll, Press - advocating going to the gas before they even tip in. As I mentioned in my video, SLPR works fine in lots of situations, but here in the rocky mountains, especially, it's completely impractical. There is no "gentle acceleration" or even "maintenance" in a steep downhill corner. A rider that is struggling with smooth inputs isn't going to do better when mid-corner, they get scared and urgently wants to go to the brakes and slow down while at lean. I do totally agree with you about baby steps, and maintenance throttle is a huge part of real-world riding. And again - it's awesome we are discussing these things!! 😎

[@MCrider]

I agree, great conversation topic. Thanks for the response! I appreciate your videos and the work you do…good stuff!

[@CanyonChasers]

Yeah man! Right back at you. The great joy of KZbin is that it's not competitive, right? Your great content doesn't mean there is less room for mine - and in fact, I think it's beneficial because we have different audiences. You reach people I can't, and vice/versa. At the end of the day, we both want to help people enjoy motorcycles and reduce the risks.

[@88888888Rocket1]

Bravo ….. thank you 🙏 CanyonChasers! Totally, agree with you!

[@helloitsdawn]

@@CanyonChasers Well, actually you might be surprised to learn that you both may have more similar audiences than not in that folks that watch want to enjoy motorcycling for a long time and safely. Content styles may be different, but folks looking for good information will find their way to the channels that provide it. Ultimately, it's up to the rider to honestly decide what they are comfortable with as they progress toward more advanced skills. Some may find trail braking easy from the get go, others will grow into it. Both are good tools for the right situation and that is why one has to understand their own limitations and strengths at their current level of riding abilities. Thanks for the civil and informative discussion between you and Kevin. It really makes for a better community. Now to get DDTFM, Paying It Forward, Motojitsu, Doodle and Jerry P. to weigh in. How's that for a diverse MC channel diet?!🤣❤🤗

[@evanswelimo586]

I have learned a lot as a new rider and find this helpful. Thank you so much.

[@imgzrona09uc72]

CMSP Instructor here. I too was uneasy when I viewed the Canyon Chasers video you cite. I think your argument in support of the beginning rider techniques taught by most schools is completely valid. In CMSP classroom we mention trail braking as a technique that exists but for intermediate level riders.

[@TheKurtTribute]

My MSF instructor didn’t mention anything about trail braking. He even seemed to harp on the fact that if your bars are turned even 1° that you should NEVER use your front brake. He repeated that multiple times both days. I had known some things about trail braking prior to the course, but for those who didn’t I’m sure many will now ride for the rest of their lives without ever even thinking it’s possible.

[@jamesbonanno3359]

Thanks Kevin for another fine video presentation. Your channel is one of the reasons I look forward to Fridays. I love Canyonchasers. Dave is an excellent instructor. I am glad you brought this up, because as a new rider, I am only in my 3rd season and I was comfortable learning slow look press and roll, only recently did I transition to trail braking. I still do not use trail braking 100% of the time and I go back-and-forth between the 2 techniques and consider them situationally dependent. I feel there is a natural progression with trail braking and it is smart to teach the new rider slow look press and roll, because it is easier for the beginner to understand as a concept and it may have less of a learning curve. Trail braking can be a bit scary at 1st and it's better to have some good technique under your belt before you give it a shot. Thanks again for shout outs to other channels and sharing all you experience with us. God bless.

[@VijayKumar-ln5vz]

Hi, James Bonanno, what u said is the final conclusion regarding Trail breaking and slow look press roll technique. Thanks

[@yomontomoto7461]

Thank you for adressing that video. As an instructor, if i found that video, the students will too. I like to remind them at the end of their class that there are several ways of taking a turn, and theyve been taught only the basics and best way to keep them alive as they practice and continue to learn and search for alternatives (such as trail braking).

[@CanyonChasers]

When I was teaching MSF I would and every class with "Congratulations! You are now fully qualified to ride around in a parking lot in second gear" Riding well is not a gift, it is something that has to be earned through constant learning and constant practice.

[@miquelcolet6946]

I just took the Advanced Rider Course from the MSF and they did include a drill on trail braking.

[@martinmartinez2877]

Now, you need to PRACTICE it and, when you feel confident that you’ve got the technique close to mastery...use it everyday, depending on road/weather conditions. There ARE times when SLPR is preferred over trail braking....

[@lylemacdonald6672]

I have watched a lot of commentary on KZbin concerning this topic. I have been riding for decades and admit I had never before heard of the term until a couple of years ago. When I determined what the term referred to my reaction was "Well, that is what I have always done; how else would you do it!?" I am sure everyone who has ridden a bicycle has gone into a turn fast with the brakes being applied to bleed off speed. You see car drivers doing it all the time with brake lights coming on before and during the curve before getting back on the gas when the road opens up. So my question is: if this skill is so prevalent and natural when riding a bicycle or driving a car why is it such a mystery for motorcyclists?

[@martinmartinez2877]

Because bicycles don’t have THROTTLE...brain surgeon

[@johngilbert1047]

I’m pretty sure that trail braking is done for control in a corner and actually increasing cornering speed…not for reducing speed in order to make a corner or curve. People brake in a curve in a car because they realize they’ve entered too fast. Trail braking is not that.

[@233kosta]

A lot of people get really comfortable doing the "safe" beginner stuff they get taught on day one, so they never learn to actually _feel_ what the bike is doing.

[@thecappy]

I've only been riding a couple of years, but every spring I come back to your's and some others videos every year to re-learn and practice.

[@allwheeldrive]

I've been riding for several decades - and I do the same thing! Never a bad thing to get the basics drilled in again.

[@donaldheine6243]

I was taught the slow look press and roll technique at the msf course a 2 years ago. Here in IL it's fine for beginners. Fall of the same year I found myself in the twisties riding in the Ozarks. I discovered the hard way goin down hill on a split S that I don't like to turn to the right as much as the left. I went off the road. I got scraped up a bit and the bike was fine only had a broken mirror. I was back at it the next day rode back and forth over the same spot half a dozen times. I was riding a klr250 dual sport. I believe the outcome could have been much worse on a bigger heavier motorcycle. This year we went riding in Wyoming, and Montana and I'm riding a bigger klr650. I did just fine as well as my 16 year old riding the 250. I've been doing some trail breaking and I believe it's a technique that is very useful in the twisties.

[@jimminyxmas]

It seems to me that trail breaking should be considered a fundamental skill, due to its potential for safely navigating turns with angles or road conditions that could be initially misjudged by the rider.

[@keithstarkey5584]

I think it should be mentioned and explained in the MSF course so that it's understood, but it shouldn't be taught; it's just way too dangerous a technique for a beginner. Until a new rider has learned to properly use the brakes in a variety of situations, it's too easy for a beginner to hit the brakes too hard in emergency sitations when leaned and turning. Without first accomplishing (by practice) proper application of brakes for emergency sitations-e.g., first straightening up the bike before use of the brakes-that front brake when trail braking as a beginner could be extremely costly if it goes badly.

[@kenwittlief255]

You use trail braking as you are entering a curve if you have misjudged a curve you are already IN it, and its too late to decide to use trail braking

[@ThatMagaLife]

It is definitely something to be learned, but beginners shouldn't be riding that fast anyway, and they have much more potential to panic break.

[@kenwittlief255]

@@ThatMagaLife no one should be riding or driving on the street so fast they need to use race track techniques to avoid losing control in a curve

[@ThatMagaLife]

@@kenwittlief255 I won't argue that, but especially beginners

[@axslinger99]

I was raised in a small rural town so dirt bikes and such were a part of life. I learned to shift with a clutch when I was 9 on a Honda Trail 70. When I took the MSF course in Phoenix, at the ripe age of 58, I was kind of shocked at the number of folks in the class who never rode before and didn't even own bikes. I guess that's the difference between being raised in the city and in the country. My point is, I can't see teaching trail braking to these folks who have never ridden before. Their plate is already full with the basics and adding trail braking would just confuse matters. MSF offers different levels of training and I believe they may cover trail braking in one of their more advanced courses. As always, thanks for the great content. God bless, be safe.

[@DanielJLopes]

I am not in the US, so my learning was different, with no MSF or similar. How I learned, both from my instructor and from experience, was to gear shift down before the curve, maintain or slightly reduce the speed the first half of the curve accordingly, using also counter-steering if necessary to adjust the angle/position, and accelerate GENTLY the second half of the curve/when you see the end of it, to straighten it up. That being said, I am always learning, and I have tried trail braking. I don't ride that aggressive that I feel the need for it, but I have a big boxer engine that brakes a lot just by de-accelerating.

[@katchoo1865]

if not riding aggressive, can ride in the mtns without even using the brakes. can have a nice pop on the de-cel also. love my boxer too

[@79sketches]

Same here. But i learned all from reading for 6 months before having my first bike. Also it was a 150cc. Super easy to learn on a light bike with so little power

[@jensstahlschmidt2183]

Started practicing trail breaking in my third year of returning to riding. The slow - look - press and role kept and keeps me safe 👍

[@davidvance3527]

Excellent video. This is a good point about human nature. As an instructor in another field (not motorcycle) I've met many good instructors. However, some have lost or forgotten the mental intimidation of someone entering a new sport and an entry coarse needs to be taught at that level. Try to remember that first time you tried all that clutch, throttle, friction zone stuff. Oh, and don't forget to look where you're going, not at the controls. 👍😎

[@michaelsupple6081]

I credit Dave at Canyon Chasers for helping me to understand and begin Trail Braking. I use it all the time now and it has without a doubt made me a more confident and safer rider. I also use it often when riding off road as I find it equally effective. I have mixed feelings about it being taught to first time riders but at the very least it should be mentioned and definitely be taught in any class above the basic course. What I am really surprised about is the resistance I've encountered regarding trail braking among "experienced" riders riding powerful street bikes. They seemed to think that the SLPR is the end all holy grail of cornering a motorcycle and trail braking should be reserved for racing and track days. I'm glad to see you and Dave having a civil conversation about it and hope that more riders will embrace the concept. It's really quite easy.I mean we do it in our cars just about every time we make a turn at an intersection. Thanks to you both.

[@jesusacovarrubias1390]

You, MotoJitsu, and Canyon Chasers were the first 3 sites I relearned from when I got back into motorcycling a few years ago. You guys taught me how to have fun on a bike by developing the finer skills on handling it safely. I appreciate you guys immensely. After I watched that exact video I got slightly confused. Thank you for clarifying the technique and for your continued support on motorcycle riding fundamentals. Jesse

[@The_Disgruntled_Vet]

CanyonChasers and your channels are the only two motorcycle riding channels I subscribe to. I’ve been riding for about 48 years and I’ve taken dozens of courses and I learn every time but I have learned so much from your channel and theirs. I’ve done a couple track days and was basically taught trail braking was a track only technique. I’ve used it on the road but rarely brought it up with other riders because it was track only. After watching how you address this, I now discuss it with other riders. It is a better technique than SLPR.

[@The_Disgruntled_Vet]

@@wascallyrabbit7169 agreed.

[@hellbilly6532]

Thank you for your work, I have integrated trail breaking into my riding techniques. Last Sunday while on a ride I rolled into a curve a little to hot and almost lost the front end but thanks to techniques I have picked up through your videos and practicing them in a controlled environment I corrected and avoided a nasty spill. Thank you again. God bless

[@colinmorris63]

Been watching you for a couple of years. Based in the UK. I've been riding bikes since I could walk....now 58. In my opinion everyone is making this way too complicated. If you are riding on a dry race circuit then braking deep into corners ( trail braking) will get you in and out faster and safer. BUT if you are on a road, with all the inherent dangers, then in my opinion you should not be so committed that you need to trail brake. Cornering should be done with a large margin for error.....at a slow enough speed to allow for the possibility of gravel, oil, oncoming traffic etc and at a pace where the benefit of trail braking is irrelevant. More often than not I roll off the throttle and slow to speed that requires no braking. OK so I'm not Valentino Rossi, but then I'm not on a track. If someone cares to disagree please come over to the UK and we'll go for spin. 😀😀👍👍

[@gangefors]

This is exactly how I ride most of the time. If I'm going into a corner I can't see the end of I make sure that I have a low enough speed that I can safely navigate the corner even if it gets really really tight at the part I could not see at the start. If the corner opens up I just give the throttle a twist and I'm on my way.

[@beepbop6697]

I'm of the exact same opinion as you, but I do want to learn as much about the technique since MCRider says he uses the technique on the majority of curves, so I'm obviously not grok'ing the technique at all.

[@robertanderson2552]

But just say the corner tightens up unexpectedly. I think it's good to have it in your armoury

[@beepbop6697]

@@robertanderson2552 absolutely. I get the theory, but not the application of it. Are trail-brakers "cross controlling" by having throttle plus the front brakes engaged simultaneously? I suspect the answer is yes... I'm going to practice and experiment to try to figure it out myself.

[@robertanderson2552]

@@beepbop6697 I trail brake and I use front brake and throttle simultaneously. I use maintenance throttle with a bit of front brake and then once I see the exit I slowly release the brake and slowly accelerate

[@79sketches]

I started practicing trail breaking a two years ago and felt good and not so hard to do. But I already had 8 years riding at that moment. If i tried that on my first year, I bet it would be very difficult for me. So yes. I agree with you.

[@andregurule8068]

I totally agree that many brand new riders are not ready for trail braking. I do wish that MSF had a trail-braking specific class. I recently took an advanced MSF course, and they briefly mentioned trail braking but didn’t go into any detail. Thanks for your great videos.

[@chrissmith7669]

I’m slowly trying to learn trail braking as a new ider

[@Recycledhooligan]

Don’t over think it pretty soon it’ll become a “muscle memory “

[@davidfellows6250]

They name everything now and it pisses me off. "Trail breaking" is simply using your front break to preload your front suspension. There's no magic to it. Just be careful with gravel and snakes and such. The most important thing about cornering is to stay loose, don't over ride your visibly, and look where you want your bike to go not where you dont want it to go and remember its always better to low side than to high side. So if you get scared push the lean more

[@kylemartos1937]

@@davidfellows6250 It’s called Trail Braking because you trail of the brakes as you add lean. Good way to explain it is 100 points of grip.

[@davidfellows6250]

@@kylemartos1937 like I said I'm old we just called it riding and I've been doing it successfully on track, dirt and street for 45 years. Although currently I only have a roadking and an r1 but the Harley goes down single track way more than it should..

[@STho205]

Subtle controls are inherit in the older small cc bikes. We all trail braked in the old 2 cycle dirt bikes and the old CB125,200, 250s, and it is hard to overbreak with cable only drum brakes or old cable front disks. You get good tactile feedback when you pull a cable brake Most if these bikes are not rockets either. They accelerate gently with a roll. Modern bikes are very twitchy and super responsive. They often squeeze twice the HP and torque out of a cc as a circa 1980s small cc bike. Brakes give so little feedback that nervous new riders can easily grab too much brake. Whiskey throttle on a Ninja 400 can launch you off a cliff. I just saw one go flying three weeks ago in NC. 100 feet down a cliff and we couldn't get to him. It took a full rescue crew of five squads with lines and cranes. The MSF courses ten years back were sporting Nighthawk 250s (dual cable drums), Vstar 250s, Rebel 250s and a few old Suzuki analog bike. These are very forgiving and beautifully balanced learning bikes. Before that the very common MFS bike was a CB125, 10 hp with 5hp brakes. However they don't translate super well to that CBR600RR, new Ninja, Triumph triple, big adventure bike or MT09 that many go out and buy. I'd like to see some training or advice seeking after one buys a newer, bigger bike from an experienced rider of THAT BIKE. That is on the rider's responsibility though, as I see no way the MSF can do it except in sn advanced class.

[@johntoccafondi2059]

Measured ant thoughtful as usual. I started learning Trail braking after a few years on the bike using the MSF tech I learned at a beginners course. Was I ready for it the first year? For me, no. It’s been years now and I’m still watching videos and trying to improve my technique. This is part of why I love riding my motorcycle. It is way more technique sensitive than driving a car.

[@danieldayton3064]

It strikes me that to contend that there is 1 and only 1 appropriate method for negotiating curves on a motorcycle is a mistake, irrespective of whether one is an advocate of trail braking or of slow-look-press-and-roll techniques. The issue of negotiating curves on a motorcycle is comprised of several core topics: controlling the velocity; controlling the direction; controlling the balance; and managing traction. For beginning or even intermediate riders, dealing simultaneously with all four of these core factors is challenging. Moreover, the techniques of trail braking and of slow-look-press-and-roll have some similarities between them, so that it is possible to consider them as part of a spectrum of control rather than as exclusive opposite poles of a dichotomous choice. To illustrate, consider that “maintaining or slowing increasing the throttle” is part of both techniques. The difference is that in trail braking, the rider is simultaneously lightly engaging the front brake while managing the throttle. In a way, the resistance offered by simultaneously engaging the front brake lever assists in “fine-tuning” the level of throttle, while also potentially mitigating the novice tendency to over-apply the throttle in an attempt to slowly increase the throttle. This is especially true in today’s EPA-compliant, lean-fueled, jerky on-off throttle response of most motorcycles. One can also add control of velocity by simultaneously feathering the clutch. HOWEVER, for a beginning rider, trying to learn smooth application of a jerky throttle, lightly managing front brake engagement, AND feathering the clutch may be too much to expect. Indeed, in the advanced rider courses that I have taken over the years, I have witnessed experienced riders challenged by this complex, multi-layered approach. So-beginning riders have to start somewhere, and it seems to me that learning slow-look-press-and-roll is an effective place to start on that spectrum. Like you, Kevin, I probably use trail braking more than 90 percent of the time, but there are still times when slow-look-press-and-roll is preferable, such as in corners that are littered with gravel or on roads that are wet and slippery. It is good for riders to practice both methods, and to learn when it is appropriate to combine the techniques. Thanks again, Kevin, for highlighting a vitally important topic! Dan

[@johncoe6304]

Well said my long winded friend..hey..I did the same! We just have a lot of passion, and a lot to say. I agree btw

[@danieldayton3064]

@@johncoe6304 "long winded friend." Sorry--occupational hazard of being a professor...

[@martinmartinez2877]

Dan, well written and well explained...I concur: SLPR is a good starting point for neophytes...it will serve them THROUGHOUT their entire motorcycling lives. Trail braking is more of an intermediate to advanced technique that the more experienced motorcyclist, searching to expand his skills, will naturally advance to practice and master. I, as you, use trail braking 80-90% of the time in my DAILY motorcycling;however, there remains road and weather conditions in which SLPR is the SAFER technique to employ.

[@TheVersipelis]

Thanks Kevin, for clear definitions, and relating back to real world techniques. It all makes sense now.

[@XRedJar]

Nick teaches 100 points of grip, and drills on not stabbing either the throttle or brakes before leading into trail braking. That is important. New riders also need drilled on maintenance throttle. Inputs to the motorcycle are not like a light switch...aka...full on / full off. Transitioning smoothly between brakes, and throttle application is what is needed, and what I think is hardest for new riders to learn.

[@shawngreenwood7825]

So, true! In Canada we still use the press and roll method. Depending on the same reason.

[@nickthequick]

For what it's worth: I am in full agreement with you. A novice needs to learn throttle and (progressive) brake control before being asked to break and slowly release as he/she goes into the corner. He/she needs to learn body position first too; what's the point of learning trail braking if you're sitting upright like a plank, with straight, locked arms and a desperate grip on the handlebars, while looking far too short in the corner, which in my opinion is what most newbies do. Get the priorities right.

[@TheDornado]

Great vid. My MSF instructors some 25 years ago were very clear that "roll" was used to only maintain speed until after the apex and only then to accelerate.

[@kentmccreary6518]

I have found a wonderfully tight canyon road with four very tight 360 degree switchbacks that has me going back several times this season. I have found while descending I maintain good control and get through these switchback with confidence using TB. While going up through the same tight turns I don't feel I can carry enough speed through them to maintain front brake pressure until the exit and feel much better about negotiating the turn using SLPR. I believe that through self critique of the outcome of each turn, obstacle, or intersection that I have come to find it's more about my commitment to good technique that rules the day. I'll leave with a big shoutout to Kevin @MCrider and Dave @CanyonChasers for some incredible content. Thank you very much

[@ananda_miaoyin]

In California, the MSF class teaches: Speed, Position, Aim, Turn. The throttle is maintained and not increased until the exit of the turn is seen and you can begin to raise the bike. Going to check out the Canyon /chasers channel. Thanks for the tip.

[@stevewilson8752]

Yes I agree ! There is room for both techniques 😄👍 Crawl first & then walk 🙂 Trail braking only when new riders are at walking stage if you know what i mean with level of experience 🏍🕺🍹

[@Justjack613]

I'm not exactly new to riding. However, I am new to taking lessons. I can't really say I know what "trail braking" is. I ride a HD Heritage Softail and have had to slow down in a curve when leaning. No problem. I habitually slow down when aproaching a curve before entering it. I always prefer to be accelerating through curve rather than slow down in the curve. But, I don't have a problem with slowing down during a curve while leaning. Ever have a deer run across road while leaning through a curve? Common sense, no panicking and uniformed braking throughout can allow you to reposition yourself in the lane while leaning through a curve. At least it has worked for me. Not to worry. I still watch all videos on "Trail Braking" just so I can learn what it actually is. Always time well spent watching your videos. Thanks.

[@490SavedOne]

The interesting thing to me is after investigating trail braking (not knowing what it was) I actually learned it's what I already was doing in certain cornering situations. Great discussion!

[@gksalf10]

Riders are lucky to have your wisely balanced perspective, thanks as always.

[@Tarabass]

Spot on! I have my license for a couple of months and I learned to get on the gas the moment the turn unfolds to get your motor straight up. I'm learning trail breaking now for myself. Friends laughed at me. Breaking in the corner, so dumb lol

[@martinmartinez2877]

Drive!

[@cw5865]

Agree a person that is more dedicated to the cause and like learning to fly, concentration on the lessons to be learned that will seem like a firehose at times. All skills have plateaus, but slumps in coordinations, but walk before running till the concepts are learned and more importantly, understood...

[@BloozBone]

I had watched Canyon Chasers and found it informative. I have been using trail braking a little less than a year and it really has helped, especially when I come on a turn and end up being a little fast at entry. I'm also working on becoming an MSF Rider Coach and I'm glad you pointed out the specifics in "roll" where is says maintain. I think you present a well thought out response.

[@justanotherviewer52]

I think I would have to agree with the baby steps approach. Slow, look, press and roll first. As you say, too many brand new riders will only get themselves in trouble needlessly.

[@CrissaKentavr]

I don't. Controlling your speed and planning to stop at all points of the curve is better than controlling with the throttle. The brake will save you from a mistake, the throttle will not.

[@martinmartinez2877]

Krissa...you know NOT what you write of!! Newbie....😜

[@micheal49]

Kevin, thank you for the video about "pre-loading" for shifting. I'm trying to learn it. When it works it's smoother than an automatic. It may take me a few months, but my goal is to shift as smooth as you do. Keep up the good work!

[@owloped405]

After I finished my MFA class I got into an argument with my husband because I said we had no business on a motorcycle and we did not. You never break 20mph. You don't even practice slow press and roll because you go bicycle speeds. And the lot is too tiny for a real curve. And yet you can go ride a rocket here in the USA after passing just a written exam. What our system does to riders is insane and fatal. They don't do this in Europe. I think the limit there is 125 or 150CC's for the first year of riding. What a concept. And licensing is far more difficult. I've gone wide 2x using slow, press and roll. I think they teach it really because if you apply too much front brake you will go down. So the MFA would rather see you go wide in real life than fall in their parking lot. Getting a motorcycle license should be a far more intense process where you actually have an idea how to slow press and roll before getting a license. I think the fear is then nobody would buy bikes if licensing was hard. But nobody does ride in the USA because everyone hears how dangerous motorcycles are. Well if riders had a clue, maybe we wouldn't be dying out there and bikes would be more popular. I watch a ton of riding videos. Just happened to come off the very video you're talking about here when I came to yours. YET, I've yet to see a really good trail breaking video. And I have watched a lot of them. Twistees say V a perpendicular turn. Do you use the clutch on a perpendicular? Rear break only? And Front on the tweestees? Front and a touch of acceleration or just front break, dip and slowly release the break as you come out of the tweestee turn? (To do that entering the turn is a bit faster. Hmm.) Is the back break ever involved? What happens is we become self-taught on the trail-breaking by watching a ton of trail-breaking videos and as a wise person once said to me, the only problem with being self-taught is that you have a lousy teacher. There has to be something between a parking lot and a race track to instruct people well. But there really isn't.

[@dsiz9421]

I’ve always said that. I was amazed by the amount of people in my group that had been riding 1-5 years with just temp license. My father had rode til his eyesight got bad. He argued with me about the gyroscopic forces used when leaning the bike. He literally said you don’t have to press. Just lean your body. I also had an uncle who went down because of the whole written temp examine thing. Got his temps and just took off. Lol

[@LTVoyager]

I agree 100% and made a similar comment on the Canyon Chaser video. We don’t teach calculus to 6th graders, we don’t teach aerodynamic affects on ballistic trajectories in Physics 101 and we should not teach trail braking to novice riders. This is a more advanced technique that should be introduced once the novice has developed some sound basic skills. I believe some advanced techniques should be mentioned in the BRC to give students something to aspire to, but it should not be taught in the BRC. Using a click bait title about your instructor being wrong was … simply wrong on the part of Canyon Chasers and does a disservice to BRC class instructors.

[@martinmartinez2877]

I agree....

[@stevenbrite4056]

I've been riding both dirt and street ( all street now ) and I was taught to use trail braking since I started riding. It does take a little time to get used to, but once you do it long enough, trail braking helps.

[@geraldwest3428]

Agree 100%! And I do like some of the content at canyon chasers. I always take away what suits me under a given set of circumstances at that time. I've been a student of several forms of martial arts in which I retained tools that suit me for the most effective results.

[@salavalos]

There’s no mention of downshifting but maybe that’s for another video. I didn’t even know what trail braking was until I watched this video but it’s what I’ve always done combined with down shifting. Great information thank you!

[@wadeblake3451]

Interesting perspective Kevin and as usual your points are very valued. I ve taken Nicks two day course and canyon riders video on trail braking mirrors Yamaha championship course teachings. I also agree that in ideal situation your corner entrance speed would be slow enough that the msf cornering approach would work. But, what if your entrance speed is too high? I think the msf approach to cornering can be used to help riders gain greater confidence with leaning a bike and with increasing bike stability through throttle roll on; however, to leave any instructional course without introducing trail braking, especially with what we now know about the benefits of trail braking, does a disservice to the trainee.

[@HawkOnHOG]

I believe both methods have their place, and as you learn both, employ the applicable method depending on the corner you encounter. Bottom line, if you approach the corner at the posted speed, you should typically be perfectly safe to maintain said speed through the corner with room to spare. From everything I have noticed, problems arise from entering corners too fast. Hence the first part of slow look press & roll--SLOW.....

[@rocketrollsvlogs7625]

I like to take classes. I continue to learn and for what it's worth, trail braking feels far more natural to me than SLPR.

[@martinmartinez2877]

No, you’re not a neophyte anymore...you’ve advanced to trail braking....Are you telling me that you STARTED trail braking FROM the very beginning of your riding experience? No way....

[@rocketrollsvlogs7625]

@@martinmartinez2877 I started trail braking from day one on a motorcycle. I was having to be corrected about it in MSF, however I had years of experience riding 10speed bicycles and I taught myself to trail brake on the 10sp growing up.

[@johnkeogh961]

I typically enjoy your videos. Not sure I am in agreement with your POV on this one. What I was waiting for was your thought as to when a rider should be introduced to trail breaking. I have several MSF courses under my belt, some I have taken several times since there is no cost in my home state. I believe the advanced course does include trail breaking. I was introduced to the concept in an intermediate level course. Thank you

[@robertadams4415]

I agree with you and Dave

[@rafaelpaiva1805]

In m'y opinion you dont need front trail Braking on the street I drive since my 10 year old I just use trail Braking on the track KZbinrs are using trail Braking to get views that's all

[@scottvanutrecht3710]

MSF does not cover trail braking early on but it is covered in the Advanced Rider Course. So it's taught, but not just early on. Love your videos. Trail braking is a must as a rider gains skill and wants to take it to the next level.

[@mikedanaher3413]

Couldn’t agree more. Great points Kevin 👍

[@BootsandJeansRiders]

As I'm watching and agreeing 100%, I smiled when you mentioned the cost of courses. I know from first hand experience that the more you pay, the more you take the course seriously. Some riders think because training is free or less expensive, its not great training and its taking for grated. When we give sessions we have three motor officers instructing, and because we don't charge, some riders would leave before the session is completed.We had a session that we charged $250 (same session) and every rider completed the session.

[@MCrider]

I agree 100%!!! Free is often a poor motivator.

[@martinmartinez2877]

Free is a GREAT motivator for ME!!!! What’s wrong with FREE?? (No such thing)😂😂😂😂

[@smiley50ish]

Between you canyon chasers /motojitshu my go to channels .think the biggest issue for me as a newbie would be that transaction between SLPR and trailbraking how do i know i am ready 5000 miles under my belt since passing test ??? love from wales uk

[@fatbudgiekillen8997]

Thanks again Kevin for an interesting look at rider training. You have such a fair ,balanced way of teaching. As I started riding later in life , I'll always be learning and I've gained so much from your videos. really enjoy Canyon Chasers too.

[@innovationgroupofsouthflor4744]

Thank you for the great video.

[@corujariousa]

Thanks a lot for making the distinction associated to risks related to proficiency levels. Some KZbinrs proponent of trail braking neglect that. I think that is irresponsible and a disservice to novice riders (even some older/more experienced ones), who many times just think about going as fast as possible and carving corners. Huge risks and mistakes on the streets.

[@ryanmalone2681]

You make some good points. It’s hard to argue.I swear by trail braking, but I’m also investing about $6k in a 12 month period doing California Superbike School, BMW Rider Academy, and Brett Tkacs ADV course. You have to be interested and invested in being an advanced rider to master advanced techniques. The dentist who takes his bike out once a month should keep it simple.

[@StimmedPenguin]

The danger of teaching trail braking to new riders is that their plate is for the most part are already full. Throttle control, shifting intuitively, brake control whilst going straight, emergency braking, obstacle avoidance, slow, look, press, and roll, and slow speed maneuvers should be the main focus of a beginner rider. Once these maneuvers get to a more autonomous level, then trail braking can slowly added in via practicing feeling and controlling the shocks during straight stops and during easy to see around sweeping turns, and eventually into blind corners where it helps add a layer of safety after confidence in your technique is adequate. I say this because I tried playing with trail braking as a novice and had no business playing with the technique because by basic of slow, look, press, and roll wasn’t in place and I didn’t countersteer enough cause I was target fixated due to focusing too much on my braking during a mild turn and landed in a ditch, where thankfully I wasn’t hurt other than some road rash, which could have been prevented if I was wearing the proper gear. My bike still has the scratched plastics on from that day as a reminder to never push way above my skill level, but always seek to improve my skill level and awareness every ride.

[@gksalf10]

Great comments on great channel!!

[@0873sp]

Hey Kevin. On my HD, I have tried trailbraking and haven't noticed the front end dipping down significantly to help corner. My bike is a full bagger designed for cruising and tight slow turns but don't know how much trailbraking would help me in corners. I don't ride on a track so I honestly don't know how much this technique will help me on the street.

[@billsawyer5265]

IT WORKS! Doing it for decades and makes traction on the front so much better. Having the front tire loaded, helps in so many ways, traction is better, bigger contact patch, and since the tire is loaded, you are ready to add more brake if something is in the way, or you need to lean more. Goldwing here.

[@MCrider]

Even if you don’t see a dip there is still weight transfer. It works on all bikes.

[@jtn113]

The most butt-puckering moment as an instructor was always watching someone go into the corner knowing they didn't slow enough and then as you stated "hammer" on the throttle only to find themselves going too fast and running outside the painted lines (which would be fine if they all could rationalize it was a big empty parking lot like you said but.....) Then you hold your breath hoping they don't reach for the front brake because at that point they would almost never do anything but "hammer" the front brake in a panic attempt to stay inside the lines. I still feel that this scenario is much more likely to produce a crash in new riders during class then teaching braking in a straight line (like usual) and just hanging on the lever a bit longer into the turn before accelerating when they are on their way out. I don't think I would have ever been worried about teaching the trail braking concept to new riders. I taught the curriculum like I was supposed to but I after class always talked about trail braking and encouraged looking into it. I believe in it and would like to see it taught in the BRC. Another reason is that I was once coaching at a track day and some of more seasoned rider coach colleagues were there riding and it was like pulling teeth to even get them to try trail braking. Too many years of not doing it or thinking it was a sin to brake while in a corner was hard for them to rationalize . They could just say things like "that's only for racing" and "that's too advanced for new riders". I don't think either of those. Teaching this very early would help avoid this inaccuracy. I guess I feel this way because it took me a while to grasp it after years of not understanding it and now it seems a logical addition to me.

[@JamesMuncie-b6b]

Hi kevin I enjoy your channel , keep up the good work , i would like to add my opinion to trail braking , whilst it has its uses on the street, i feel adjustment of entry speed , gear selection , and lane positioning should be the prefered method used when cornering , this is spoke about in Roadcraft , and ive used this method when training with the british police riders . Cheers

[@mosads2986]

EXCELLENT JOB WELL DONE 👏

[@georgetumino9652]

I'm a subscriber to both your channels and I think you are both outstanding. Many many thanks.

[@dadontwo-wheels8202]

The new, Updated Advanced Rider's Course through MSF, teaches trail braking. The new course offers 10 different exercises and this is it's own exercise. If you haven't taken the new updated advanced course I highly recommend it! Each class will be slightly different as each rider coach has a slightly more or less understanding and competency of that skill. I am saying this as an MSF rider coach. At very minimum this skill is taught and discussed properly. When it comes to demonstration and application, this is where it varies! Good lesson, as normal. Continue making these great videos. I hope riders, new and advanced, can continue to find and watch your videos.

[@letsgoldwingit]

Awesome video again as usual, thanks again for the info and perspective.

[@davidking8361]

Excellent thoughts.

[@ioandragulescu6063]

In the end it's all about riders knowing their individual limits. A new rider might show good use of trail braking in a controlled environment, like a parking lot and/or a track but out in the wild, a moment of carelesness and fear sets in and things can go really wrong with trail braking. But I agree that teaching new riders to accelerate thorugh the corner can also be very dangerous. Like I said, in the end it's about knowing one's limits and personal responsibility but definetly the knowledge should be shared, explained and practiced, both of them. What always helps, is having a first bike that is reasonably powerfull, forgiving and that has a bit of a lazy, progressive brake leaver, the kind that most reviewers complain of not being that sharp.

[@kylemartos1937]

I’m glad to hear your opinion on it. My fear is that if we tell everyone their coaches are wrong, then why should anyone take a class if they can learn everything they need to know from internet gurus? It’s not a hit on you or CanyonChasers, but I feel it’s pushing some people in the wrong direction. Who knows, maybe many of them were only looking to hear themselves anyway, maybe not.

[@johnf517]

I am a newbie… so far… every corner I have taken is done so cautiously that I never needed to trail brake… just slow look press and roll… even when I tried trail braking, it did not feel right because I was riding the speed limit and the bike just cornered smoothly… am I doing something wrong? I feel only if I am riding faster that the technique will be needed but for now, I am just going at my own comfortable pace and I love it… let me know…

[@martinmartinez2877]

You are CORRECT....trail braking is used at higher speeds....

[@kenwittlief255]

until you get to the point where you are taking curves so fast that the pegs are scraping, you are no where near the limit of traction and dragging your front brake while going into a curve at reasonable speeds is doing nothing but wearing out your front brakes you are doing great - ride so you feel in control and confident when you start scraping the pegs on every curve, then you will want to learn some racing techniques, so you can be going much faster when you eventually crash.....

[@timothyrobson3325]

Man talking sense. In Canada trail breaking is taught to beginners/ intermediate in the slow speed manoeuvring class.

[@davidstarks2456]

As a new rider, i personally feel more comfortable using trail breaking rather than slow look press and roll. Should i continue to use it or should i make myself use slow press and roll since im learning

[@MotoTvWoodsFarm]

one of easiest techniques to learn and starting place for any brand new novice, most can master it in 3 to 4 minutes

[@patrickcahill9812]

I have a question regarding the benefits of trail braking on my BMW R1200GS having the telelever suspension. Since the telelever suspension limits fork dive, does trail braking still increase the front tire contact patch? My assumption is that you’d still get the benefit of increased contact patch (loading the suspension) as the forces are still acting on the front tire just the same. Is my assumption correct?

[@tophermatt0834]

@MCRrider MSF's Advanced Rider Course does introduce the content of trail-braking. Great to hear your thoughts. Keep up the good work on your channel. I recommend it to all my classes I teach for good foundational information to better their riding skill set.

[@justinmaxwell4925]

ignorant question… what if the turn is uphill? To where to have to keep accelerating (or at least steady throttle so you can’t brake)? You just keep the throttle going throughout the full turn so you can keep moving up the hill and just push the lean as hard as you need to safely do so to make the turn?

[@jeffstieren4474]

Very well put

[@danishbacon890]

I’m a bit confused about how to use the clutch while trail braking - could you give some hints about when and not to engage the clutch? Haven’t been able to find any explanation about this subject…

[@Gudebrothers]

I took MSF, MSF Intermediate and then Total Control I, so I support riding with my $. Trail breaking is, to me, the difference between having a bike and being a rider. Take a class, learn WHY. It was critical to me and how my mind works (or doesn't as the case may be) to understand the WHY. Good vid, MC!!!

[@johnklink4825]

I spent 300$ for a one on one class . The course was a refresher course. I’m 75 with years of experience. Both off road and road. I still believe I need more training. Any suggestions? San Diego, Ca. I ride a BMW GS 1200.

[@GraniteRoll]

MotoJitsu one on one - go look at his channel and reach out he’s near you.

[@martinmartinez2877]

Drive!!

[@johndavis2399]

Bravo! Well said 👏

[@shubhnahar0]

@mcrider you say that do not use front brakes at low speed, does that apply to bikes with abs too?

[@prifor1624]

Running at about 35-40 mp/h (or 55-60 kmp/h) before approaching corners, I do not think trail braking would have an impact. Or it does? I always survived going back and forth to and from mountains via zigzag roads, and not do trail-braking. I only do Braking/Slowing before corners, Leaning a Bit and Throttle Off, then immediately Throttle On again before and through Apex until Exiting. Is my process flawed?

[@lynjameson1368]

Watched both videos and they compliment each other very well. I just started riding with the MSF course a few months ago and already see the value of both techniques. Since I’m so new, I can appreciate the basics learned at the MSF course as well as the value of mastering trail braking to gain cornering proficiency.

[@thedrunkmonk8386]

I'm going to start practicing trail breaking as I try to grow my skills, but I don't think it would do well for new riders. It seems more like it would be an additional step to slow look press and roll than something completely separate.

[@mannyechaluce3814]

Trail Braking is done while driving a car, like Exit Ramp from the highway, into a parking lot, into sharp curves , it is also done while riding bicycles :D If you are not doing it, you have never had driven or ridden anything with wheels :D Heck, throttle maintenance are also done by drivers daily, same with Pedaling maintenance on bicycle :D

[@erich.4305]

I have a question- I am planning to get a bike after not having ridden for about 20 years. Ideally I want a bike with ABS and either belt drive or shaft drive and of course fuel injection. I am not real mechanical and do not want to deal with chain maintenance. I only want to spend about $6000. Do you have any suggestions? If I can't get a bike with all of those requirements I am considering not getting ABS. I thought chain failure due to lack of maintenance or paying someone to adjust chain tension every 500 miles isn;t practical. I know ABS is a smart thing to have. What do you think about my thoughts?

[@CrissaKentavr]

Canyon Chasers is why I'm still a rider. I think he's telling what's understood by the riders, as opposed to what is intended. Slow, look, press and roll is bad. I live in the mountains, and I could not use the basic lessons and make it to the grocery store. While I can't always keep the front end loading, keeping my control where I can actually slow or stop. That's what's important.

[@MCrider]

There are millions of safe miles ridden with slow look press and roll. Maybe there were some corrections needed with your technique. That said, I do believe that trail braking is superior. But just because it is superior it does not make the other technique bad.

[@martinmartinez2877]

You need to STOP riding motorcycles...DRIVE a 🚗 🚙!!!

[@richardh418]

Canyon Chasers is the best!!!

[@MCrider]

I agree, great channel!!!

[@vikingplumber9541]

Hey Kevin. You are my Go To Guru for keeping my mind & skills sharp. I recommend you to all of my 2 wheeled friends. Just wanted to ask if you made it to GetOn Motofest? I didn't see you in any other KZbinrs videos. I was looking for you, as it was in your backyard.

[@beepbop6697]

Hi Kevin. In other videos you mention that you aren't entering the corner any faster when trail-braking -vs- SLPR method. Do I take that to mean you are engaging front brake (albeit very minimally) while keeping throttle constant (or slightly increasing throttle) while trail braking?

[@cyoungan]

Thanks for another great video! Can you trail brake with the rear brake? Does it make a difference if you’re on a cruiser vs. a sport bike? i.e. can you use the rear brake on a cruiser to trail brake?

[@Grimmlocked]

I took the msf course last weekend and having never touched a clutch before. My first turn went really wide.... buy I can see how I would have grabbed wayyyy to much break.

[@fr8fr6dr69]

Thank you! I am an RC and I watched the same video you are talking about and had all the same opinions you expressed here. I laughed out loud to find that someone had already put my own words into a video response, it is exactly what I though too. I too like his videos, but I have taught over a thousand students at this point in my career, and you learn a few things working with hundreds of students of all riding experience levels from brand-new beginner to seasoned veteran. You quickly learn that there is a vast difference between analyzing something from a technical and academic perspective versus actively knowing what works and does not work with students, particularly when teaching a course that is geared towards the brand new rider. When he launched into his 10-minute explanation of trail braking, I knew instantly that it would never work with brand new students. If your explanation of anything takes more than 30 seconds, you're doing something wrong. Anyone who doesn't believe this, go ahead and teach a few hundred new students then come back to me with your thoughts. What I take strong exception to is the fact that he explicitly blames slow look press roll and the MSF for people dying in curves, when in fact the MSF and the slow look press roll technique are what is saving people in curves, particularly the first three steps of that, and particularly the "look". He repeatedly took aim at the throttle roll-on, when in fact that is really not what is emphasized in that technique. I think he completely misunderstands the way this is taught and why it is taught. I also think he has not spent a lot of time teaching real riders in real-time, certainly not beginners, and certainly not in a pack of 12 trying to keep them untangled from each other for 12 hours. I would advise him that if he wishes to have a deeper understanding of the MSF, RCs, and the techniques taught, he should invest the few hundred hours that we all have into the study, classroom, and range work it takes to even begin teaching his first group of students, then spend another 1,000 hours or so teaching them in person, on the bikes, to gain an understanding of what you can and cannot do with students, particularly beginners.

[@MCrider]

If I am not mistaken he was an MSF coach or may even still be a coach.

[@martinmartinez2877]

I completely agree with you fr8fr6dr....

[@schemkesa]

agreed.... its looks easy but there are so much more things to do better before we start teaching trailbraking, but its sure a very good technique for the advanced rider

[@jimdoolan2277]

Well done 👏

[@davesmithrn]

I took the MSF intermediate course here in Minnesota last fall, and the advanced course last month. No mention of trail braking except maintaining the rear brake for slow maneuvers. Of course they didn't call it trail braking. Taking the expert course in a couple weeks, so it'll be interesting to see if it comes up then. I just got back into biking 2 years ago after 35+ years off, and started using trail braking as soon as I had some confidence in brake control, and use it all the time now. Should it be taught at the Basic Rider Course? probably not, but I don't see anything wrong with a little intro to the topic. Side note, half of my intermediate class last fall did NOT have their MC endorsement but rather their learners permit., which they renewed annually. A couple of these riders had been doing this for 10-15 years...

[@MCrider]

To my knowledge the MSF does not have trail braking in any of their training courses.

[@anindanahiyan8818]

if you're new to trail braking, try it on a bicycle where the stakes are much lower and you'll at worst skin a knee or an elbow and at best have a laugh. but it helps you get used to feeling and feathering the brake lever to tighten/loosen the turn. make sure it's a mountain bike or road bike, because you can't really lean over and turn like a motorbike on a commuter bicycle which feels like a couch on wheels