Trail leg up or down? hand open or closed? What should we do?

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[@Tenpindoctors]

For those that don’t know me. I’m not like most people. I’m not afraid to tell you how I feel. I’m not afraid to argue and I’m certainly not afraid to tell you you’re wrong. If you don’t like it maybe my channel isn’t for you. But if you comment just beware it might get a reply you might not like. If your feelings are hurt then call a friend and complain to them. Not me. Have a great day y’all!

[@kevinquick4844]

Leave your feelings with the wife (she can store them wherever she stores your balls) before entering. Bump your feelings.

[@corbinesterak7837]

That's something I love a out this game. There's not exactly a right or wrong way to do it. There's fundamentals but everyone has thier own style

[@Tenpindoctors]

There key things everyone needs to be good but there’s many ways to get there

[@j23p24]

bowling reminds me of a basketball jumper. everyone looks different when they shoot and it doesn't matter how it looks as long as it goes in, bowling is the same.

[@jamest7597]

I appericate you being straight forward and your videos it actually made me realize some bad habits and my game is getting back to the way it use to be

[@clintonkahler2082]

Excellent Teaching and Training Video JR.....hope you can smooth out your tour hiccups...been a fan for a bit since my buddy turned me onto your channel...love to see more vids like this from you where you break down other Pro's games and talk about Mechanics and such....thanks!

[@NolanHartl]

Watching you be not so much critical of your game, but very open and observant speaks wonders of your humble approach. P.S. I’ve finally figured out a backup ball thanks to your insight and knowledge. Revs to follow! Amazing content as always!

[@matthewcalabresi504]

Hey JR, quick tip: you can move frame by frame through the video using the comma and period keys when the video is paused.

[@WestPac-ny9vi]

Old Videos of Kyle Sherman, he revamped his game after the shoulder injury and now keeps his trail leg down, best example of keeping trail leg down is Parker Bohn III

[@boriskipnis7969]

Great video, JR! My backswing is actually very short, the ball barely goes above my butt. Will try to open my hand a little on the backswing and see if I can loosen up my shoulder and add a bit more power to my game.

[@matthewmurphy1045]

I kind of like the sarcasm in this video and how you get fired up with some people's comments. Keep on loving the sport like you do. Watching your videos has rejuvenated my love for the game!! To be a better bowler you must wear the hat. 😆

[@richardrota7836]

trail leg up and that little hop works pretty well for shawn maldonado

[@scottythompson940]

Cool video talk tech bowling Jr Raymond

[@lukelanam6045]

Sean rash is one of those guys that also seems to step off on all of his spare shots.

[@lathantate2577]

My best friend and myself have bowled together since we were 12 we are in our 50's one thing we learned early is that we learn alot listening to someone work through their own issues. I rarely agree with you so I usually drop off early. Not this one. I learned and was comforted by alot of what you discussed, balance is an issue for me but I know that is based on my conditioning and mental approach but I was so concerned with trail leg. While to me balance is extremely important I don't have a "rule" to how long you have to stick it. Or if you have to stick it at all. I think it's feel and consistency more than just sticking it at the line. But Thank you for the shoulder thing. I think you might have helped me with gaining more power and getting my swing a little higher. Lastly why do I listen if I don't always agree, it's because you know way more than I ever did and I am smart enough to know that you keep listening and you will hear something that you can connect with or find benefit. So even if I don't agree you will still have a listener.

[@igorhabljak3218]

Hi JR, I don't share your opinion on the reason the hand should be opened in the backswing. I think it is OK to have that hand opened, but the reason is not in creating a higher backswing. The height of the backswing is controlled/limited by the shoulder position. For a right hander, the left shoulder is the key to creating a relaxed and free swing. The height of the backswing is limited when the left shoulder is not in line with the swing plane (and it should be dropping lower than the right shoulder) and that prevents the right shoulder from opening up, so it creates tension in the swing. You can keep the fist of the hand wherever you want if you open up the shoulders, and drop the left shoulder in front of the body, and it will not limit the movement of the backswing. It is illustrated in all the examples you have shown. Prather and EJ are showcasing it. Look at the left shoulder and trailing arm on the top of the backswing. They are perfectly in line. They can manipulate the hand on the top of the swing without changing anything else. The more power a player has, the more vertical rotation of the shoulders you see during the swing, opposite of the "traditional" bowling with the horizontal shoulder movement, so you can see the backswings go much higher in the modern game. Everyone has a unique game, but there are always some elements that should be biomechanically sound, and these elements are visible in a lot of top level bowlers. That is just the way human body works with the least effort, hentop-level repeatable. Sorry for the long post, I had to explain why I disagree, and I hope it made sense. I enjoy watching your content, great work and keep it up!

[@horseshoe_nc]

Everyone bowls differently. One of the most unique bowling styles I can think of is Jacob Butruff.

[@thomasrutledge3366]

Yo JR your a KZbiner you need KZbin premium no ads. Loving all the content lately.

[@williamfreitas7016]

We both know most bowlers just repeat what they’ve been told without knowing if the cause and affect are the same. Far too many amateur bowlers don’t have enough knee bend and compensate with forward tilt at the waist. Those people need to try to keep the foot lower than the more naturally athletic bowlers. Great explanation on why the open hand is used!

[@kb1767]

I prefer shorter backswings like prather but yours have a beautiful flow to it. Don't change anything

[@lawrencepatton5966]

That's why I rock with you bro. Your content is awesome the way you brake down things are spot on every time I come away with something new and your honesty is what we all need at times and your more harder on yourself then anyone so keep it real and thanks your appreciate 😊

[@Tenpindoctors]

Thanks for getting it and not being stuck in the politically correct mindset

[@lawrencepatton5966]

I'm from Detroit I moved to Alabama when I come home I hope I can meet you and say thanks your my guy and good luck 👍.

[@thegame9808]

I’m glad you came to light finally with your swing path, one more important thing would be to pay attention to the flat spot at the bottom of swing, if the swing is to steep it creates a small release window and difficult to get a good reaction. Somebody like Prather who has a lower swing has a very nice flat spot at release and makes it very easy to do what you want and be consistent. I’ve only seen your swing from behind so can’t say with certainty, but it looks like your swing may be a bit to steep and forcing you to have a small release window. My advice would be to try and lower it a bit and try and create a “plane” at the bottom. And spine tilt is very leaned over as well making it hard to balance well. Tough to say only seeing from the back tho.

[@SirJoelsuf1]

14:30 Never knew that it was alright to step off the shot after the ball crosses the arrows, I actually feel better when I do that. It's way more comfortable for me. Never had an issue with stepping off the shot directly after throwing the ball which is what I see at league all the time haha

[@lukelanam6045]

JR I had the same problem with opening up so much and then collapsing early, my release was terrible. I've now fixed it and stayed behind the ball because I find it hard to get underneath the ball when doing that. Even now I'm not as far under it as I'd like to be and idk how to fix it. I hear all this talk often of "oh just have a free arm swing and it's easy" yet I'd like to say I have a pretty free swing and still can't get past the equator of the ball. Do you or anyone have any ideas?

[@llwat1057]

I'm a 64 year old stroker. Most times, unless you tilt the lanes, I will never cross that many boards. I thank you for your knowledge.

[@cashmeonthedeltahowboutdat]

All of us need to bowl or learn to make it work in what's comfortable to our own bodies... For example I had a shoulder injury and it drastically changed my swing and I can no longer get my backswing up like I used to

[@Bgroff]

Hotel internet is the worst. LOL

[@joshg218]

Nothing matters other than repeating your delivery... you can do funky shit with your wrist as long as you understand how to repeat and how to adjust to move across the lane.... You can pick on stuff if they are causing a problem.... if not.. do what works..

[@Tenpindoctors]

Agreed. Very well said

[@damarapoledna3636]

Trail leg up/dwn really doesn't matter as much as raising up at the foul line.

[@Tenpindoctors]

Agree. Head movement is key

[@errolwilcox747]

@JR I'm not gonna give any more advice unless you ask for it in future videos, but I will say this: when you did the review of the Roto Grip Gem, and you were forced to slow down your stroke and smooth things out, you looked 100% better.. night and day difference appearance-wise.

[@TheCamaroone1]

That ball looked great in his hand

[@danasperling5918]

Do you inhale or exhale on your back swing? Mind games. Just be smooth and repeatable.

[@Tenpindoctors]

😆

[@shannonroberts2372]

My suggestion was to play with the height and the extension of your balance arm and see how that changes your body and bowling arm motion. I should have expounded when I initially made the comment. By extending the arm further from the body, higher or lower, changes the bodies center of gravity along with the motion of the trail leg automatically. The trail leg is primarily based on comfortability simply because the factors involved in where the trall leg goes are numerous. However, the balance arm, unless there are rotator issues with shoulder, controls so much of the body and bowling arm. Just a suggestion, no argument at all with what you are doing, but something to play with. Bowling good does not mean you are bowling your best. By trying different things, you may find a new good, or a new best. Good luck

[@Matt_Holcomb]

Mine is very down..but I am also alot straight back bowler.

[@bowlingxp8345]

If one can keep balance with consistency and not hurt a joint in the long run, then it's fine either way. But it is logical to have the lowest center of gravity possible, so in that sense it is not even something to debate about. Some pros leave it up, but not so up that it messes with the rest of their body balance. Having said that, it is almost certain that if they managed to keep it lower, there would be a benefit, even a small one.

[@Matt_Holcomb]

Also bowling academy can help use with out Rev rate hahaha. I'm sorry I had too

[@4G64SicKShoT]

After 20 some years of bowling, i found out when i crank on my ball my leg comes up but when i try to keep it down i roll the ball more

[@L3Dhelpguide]

Food for thought, most of the greatest bowlers are feel players, than can work speed and revs to make a ball work. Not the ones with the best form........suggesting some practice in making a ball work over working thru your arsenal.

[@MyGuaraguao]

That was great. I have always thought that you should train your arm swing as an underarm pitcher. Lifting your leg will give more power and balance just like the pitcher. Training your core, legs, arms and shoulders to be strong. Bowling let go of the old school and join the new athletic forms of today and future. I started bowling at the young age of 58 and now am 75. Am not a great bowler but enjoy it a lot. I also hate the way bowling balls are drilled with the thumb under the wrist. It puts a lot of of strain on the wrist. I have my thumb offset to left from the center grip. Just like grabbing a football or baseball with full feel of the bowling ball in my hand and rolling the ball towards the pins not to the ceiling like they use to coach. Keep up the good work Raymond and continue your physical training 💪 👍 👏 👌 A side note: I hate bowlers complaining a lot about the lane conditions. Always crying 😢. I just tell them to go to the maternity ward to cry.😂 I enjoy your videos.

[@jeffarmstead9182]

I agree with you that most PBA players lift their trail leg off the lane, Looking at the PWBA, the majority do not lift their trail leg. They are pretty good like Julia Bond, Verity Crawley, and Shannon O'Keefe, just to name a few. No disagreement, just saying.

[@Tenpindoctors]

Yup they are taught this at an early age and because most women still practice a lot of the older techniques. There’s a reason you don’t see more power in the women and it’s not a strength issue. It’s technique. But that’s a whole different conversation

[@kevinquick4844]

A month or two ago Bowling This Month did a story on the trail leg. When I was telling the guys without telling them about the article, I took a ton of shit. Then I showed them the article and sat back and watched then eat crow for dinner. When I first started I definitely lifted my leg. As my balace has improved and my release has got lower my trail leg slides the whole way. As far as my off hand? Honestly I would have to review the tape. I don't have a clue what it's doing as my eyes and concentration is one the ball motion all the way off the deck. Then inside bowling did there video on it and I'm like...... I have an offhand?. I've tried holding stuff in my hand and I didn't notice any difference. I still shut that thought down and concentrate on the ball. 🙋‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@jimk9290]

I'm a proponent of "keeping the trail leg down". Two things: First, it helps post the shot, if the trail leg is on the floor. It can go up, then down, but if you can get the toe or side of the foot on the floor, the odds of posting the shot go way up. Second, if the trail leg is up, and never gets "put down", the bowler's head may move up or right or anywhere besides staying steady. That can kill roll by shortening the delivery flat spot, and it can contribute to becoming off balance right at the end of the release.

[@Tenpindoctors]

Sure can, but trying to force the leg down can also cause the head to pop up so it’s definitely a case by case basis. It’s not a necessity to keep it down by any means. Be careful what you may teach

[@bowlingxp8345]

@@Tenpindoctors The goal would not be to "force it down" though. But to have a posture that eliminates the need for it to go up in the first place. In other words, if a bowler has the leg up, trying to teach him to stay down by forcing it down, would be a mistake.

[@thegame9808]

Forget worrying about trail leg, not super important , my opinion instead study swing steepness and how that effects release window, that’s very important . Kyle Sherman had to lower his swing to give himself a bigger release window as example.

[@jeffreyfoster8413]

An older bowler but I think Parker Bohn iii keeps his leg down.

[@egibs3565]

If I'm rolling the ball slower and playing deeper I've noticed my trail leg stays down. Otherwise my trail leg is up 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@mattwzientek6933]

Aj Johnson keeps it down well and so does Miller. Honestly I think it looks good down. But your top 3 bowlers are up.

[@Tenpindoctors]

There’s a good mixture of bowlers who do it both ways for sure. I don’t think either way is right or wrong

[@treysmith8450]

I think today's game is very different from its predecessor, power player's leg is up in the air and the down and in players leg is down..... Power players open their hips more causing the trail leg to rise.... down in players keep their hips closed so it's easier to keep their leg on the ground ...... just my opinion...

[@dennisrieger1508]

My buddy Ricky ward has his leg pretty low

[@AF-mv8hq]

I think Chris Via keeps his leg on the ground

[@Matt_Holcomb]

You can't say that Ronnie Is your friend hahaha..Is it true he has the highest back swing in the pba. JR your show event was what 6 7 years ago. You did more than everyone of use commenting

[@allee68]

PDW is one thT opens his hands a lot...

[@mikedz4702]

You are 100 on Prather and you play your game bud

[@mikemiller3959]

Not sure if you see these comments after next day but if you watch this on Kyle you'll find him trying to go foot down. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnjYeapnmtl7gZI

[@Tenpindoctors]

Sure. It’s a great drill if you’re trying to improve posture. Some stick with trail leg down, most dont

[@ryanwalter7419]

Most women keep it down the most

[@Tenpindoctors]

Women are taught by women most times. There’s a lot of women lacking power because of implementing old techniques

[@bowlingxp8345]

@@Tenpindoctors Most women are taught by women? That's a curious statement, since most coaches worldwide are men. Anyway, even if it were true, i don't think that is the reason. Most probably the reason is that women are more flexible and have great knee bend. And are shorter.

[@ziggyking617]

I think your too obsessed with the books. The whole reason we don't go by the 80s rules is cause a whole generation went against the books and rewrote them to fit the modern game. Maybe this new generation needs to do the same thing

[@Tenpindoctors]

I’m obsessed with burning the books because they don’t apply to todays game. There’s a difference

[@nickwood2225]

I dont even need to finish watching the video. When someone comments and you already have your mind made up that you're doing nothing wrong, then I guess the comment is pointless. I will disagree 1000% with you and I dont care if you're a pro and I'm not. I have eyes and can analyze someone's game. This has nothing to do with right or wrong or whatever decade you're referring to. Every bowler you or I can bring up, sticks their landing no matter where there leg goes until the ball is approaching the pins, then they fall off depending on what they want the ball to do down lane. You fall off pretty immediate and keeping the leg down might help with more consistency with that. You dont need any more power. Brad Miller is actually working on this right now and you're pulling up ancient videos on people. You say "oh look at O'Neill's leg go flying up". The point is that the rest of his body didnt move and he had perfect balance at the line. I can pull up videos of the same exact people keeping the trail leg down too. Depends on the shot. Look at the last PBA event that Dom won. Trail leg up on one shot, and down on another. Point is perfect balance either way.

[@Tenpindoctors]

You made my point exactly. You said exactly what I said but to say I fall off immediately? Wtf are you ever watching?

[@Tenpindoctors]

But what do you want to hear? You’re right and I’m wrong? Okay dude. Good luck

[@Tenpindoctors]

Listening to y’all make all these off the wall suggestions about physical game when the topic is about ball reaction cracks me up. That’s where all this started

[@nickwood2225]

@@Tenpindoctors I said pretty immediate, not immediately. Learn to read and digest what you read before negatvely responding