"Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality" - My conversation with Helen Joyce

[@dooddirl1]

Wow, Helen Joyce, take a Bow. you have to be one of the most articulate, learned and Brilliant women alive.

[@qarl8176]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. While Helen Joyce is indeed articulate and has contributed to the discourse on gender issues, it's crucial to consider the full scope and nuances of these topics. For instance, her statement about 'sterilizing children' is not accurate according to medical guidelines. Treatments for gender dysphoria are generally not recommended for children under the age of 16, and even then, they are carefully considered and are reversible in most cases. Misinformation can create unnecessary fear and stigma, so it's important to rely on accurate medical information and ethical guidelines when discussing such sensitive issues.

[@ambientjohnny]

@@qarl8176 Why are you replying to near every comment as some sort of "expert", when you can't even answer basic questions like defining what a "woman" is, or explaining what you think the difference is between girls and women?

[@qarl8176]

@@ambientjohnny You've been harassing me repeatedly. I am not inclined to answer your questions. I wish you the best.

[@eleccy]

@@qarl8176So basically she's completely right. At least some children are being sterilized by your own admission, a child being defined in law as anyone under 18 in multiple countries, and it's the definition that Helen has used repeatedly. What on earth are you talking about? Treatments for gender dysphoria in children are applied as young as 4, beginning with social transition, psychiatric care, then at onset adolescence, puberty blockers, followed up with cross sex hormones and body augmentation, not necessarily in that direct order, as treatment pathways very greatly between countries, and between what kind of institution (private / public) and even the care provider. The vast majority of patients move on to cross sex hormones, which cause sterility 100% of the time. Marci Bowers, a transgender surgeon of great renown, is quoted as saying "every single child … who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2 is unable". Care providers now recommend freezing of gametes to allow for fertility later in life. Blockers have been prescribed off label for kids as young as 11. The UK government had to outlaw it just over a year ago and even now there are workarounds - this is as a result of the Kiera Bell case, and they can still be applied to 16 year olds who are legally referred to as "children". A full treatment pathway, which is started in early adolescence dramatically impacts fertility, and if the full treatment path is concluded, the person will be 100% completely infertile without artificial aid. You with the absolute gall to accuse others of misinformation, when you're spreading extremely dangerous medical misinformation to others is pure evil. Helen is completely right to say "they are sterilising kids", and now I'm going to laugh at you for moving the goalposts which is what you're about to do. Go for it.

[@qarl8176]

@@eleccy Oh, and, small correction: Helen doesn't say "they are sterilising kids" she says "they are sterilising children".

[@sarasamson5922]

Listening makes me feel like grown-ups have entered the room. Thanks for the sanity, rationality, and respectful dialog.

[@vikkiLH77]

It’s so comforting isn’t it

[@ezbody]

I thought I would never see the day when abuse is called sanity. Finally!!! 🥳🥳🥳

[@CCDR07]

Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums. I guess my main point is to question the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive... With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.

[@justsomefella1489]

@@La_Monde well you’re certainly not a grown up with a reply like that…

[@PaperGrape]

Came awfully late on Dawkins's side, didn't it? Oh well, better late than never. He's a huge voice, and I'm glad he did it.

[@brandiallen7979]

being a tomboy in rural Texas in the 80's, my parents would have absolutely thought of transitioning me, were they given an option to fix their gender non conforming girl. They were so horrified at the thought that I might be gay, they pushed more barbies and more dresses, beauty pageants...I would cut my hair, take off dresses and sit naked in a room until I was allowed to wear pants. Guess what? I am straight, straight as the day is long. I am just a bit butch, and I like comfortable shoes. My husband was a bit feminine, didnt like sports, preferred girls to boys as friends, musical artistic...very straight. We have been happily married for 20 years. I think the thing we miss is, how absolutely shitty being a girl is. Periods, puberty, boobs, the male gaze upon you, society, all of it. That is why I hated girly things, girls had to stay in doors, be quiet, wear uncomfortable clothes. Boys could be loud, stay outside, run around...I just saw the boys had more freedom. If as a 5 year old someone asked me if I wanted to be a boy, i would have said YES!. Part of being an adult is the horror of working it out and finding out how to live in your body. No one tells kids anymore, all these gross feeling you are having, are normal, they will come and go, that most of this stuff you will grow out of.I feel so bad for kids now.

[@KatieSimmonds1]

This is a perfect example that gender is not binary and is on a sliding scale, hence “tomboys”. That IS NOT the same thing as someone being transgender. People don’t transition to another gender just because they don’t like wearing dresses or vis versa.

[@celeste1421]

So well put!

[@brotherjohnnyxXxX]

A tomboy is someone who identifies as a female but acts and likes things that are traditionally masculine. A transgender male identifies as a male but was born in a female body.

[@StrangeMeadowLark]

People do tell kids that - ask any gay or trans person. We're all told that. By society if no one else. At least you got to experience how oppressive gender can be. Helen may well be right that such social structures can be supportive but they can also be deeply oppressive and scarring and it's the modern recognition of that that has been liberating. But yes, one can run with that too far.

[@slyjokerg]

What a great comment. I hope you spread your story to as many people as possible.

[@Retrobeemer]

*Really enjoyed listening to Helen and I've noticed much of the coercion she speaks of on TikTok. The whole 'love bombing' thing with followers and gifts for one. I've never really spoken out about anything in my 57 years but I feel that this is a topic that I don't want to be silent on for fear of being complicit.*

[@alibabaschultz352]

Dawkins has always been the textbook definition of "gentleman and scholar". His unwavering commitment to science and truth is needed more now than ever.

[@Sigmund1924]

One of my favorites as well but he also believes in man made global warming and that nationalism is a bad thing so there is room for improvement.

[@alibabaschultz352]

@@Sigmund1924 You may want to read my comment again, and come back with a more scientific response.

[@Sigmund1924]

@@alibabaschultz352 I merely questioned his, “Unwavering commitment to science and truth.” Why would that merit a scientific response given your post lacked scientific data?

[@lsmith6036]

​@@Sigmund1924three things he is right about on.

[@ramudon2428]

​@@Sigmund1924I'm curious, do you think nationalism is a good thing? And if so, why?

[@martinworkman6670]

"Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality" and how thoroughly does Helen represent reality. I loved this conversation. Her beautifully rational, intelligent and absolutely correct arguments are so so needed in these times. thank you.

[@valerianmandrake]

Indeed, and sad to see how irrational and suscetible to emotional manipulation the supposedly educated "elite" is.

[@ZotzPhasmo]

Her arguments are absolutely incorrect. University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?!

[@lotteingerslev5776]

Thank you SO much, Helen and Richard! ❤

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

why do you agree with them?

[@maxprofane]

This was a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much for taking the time to record this and publish it.

[@patriciaburns1033]

For the first time in my relationships with my grown up, intelligent children I am being seen as a bigot and the irony is that neither of them are trans, I feel so pressured to not even voice my own view for fear it will cause a division in my family and I feel very angry that biology is now on a back burner and is being used to judge my intent and my very personality, I fear it's going to get much worse before it gets better, Great discussion here which I very much enjoyed, thank you.

[@tonynoonan3723]

Sometimes we are called to stand up for reality.your adult children are the problem,do not relent here,your children at best are brainwashed at worst havent a clue.Many are in a similar position as you and thats the purpose,to cause utter chaos to all aspects of society by people who have evil intent.

[@joannawatson1584]

I truly sympathise with you as I also face this with family and friends. That is why I always listen to these podcasts as they make me stay strong and resolute in my beliefs.

[@bh_486]

Time to stop calling your children intelligent.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

Have a Socratic conversation with them. Ask them questions, let them explain, and in the process hopefully let them discover the inconsistencies in their viewpoints themselves. Don't take a harsh, judgemental stance from the getgo. For inspiration, you could take a look at the work of Peter Boghossian, e.g. his "Street Epistemology" at Berkeley University.

[@boneheadenraged]

@@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bsi second this

[@SheidaRad]

Thank you Dr. Dawkins for this amazing interview. I absolutely appreciated your guest and her points and agree with you. Lots of respect to you both. ❤

[@mTsp4ce]

Who is Dr. Dawkins? 😛

[@Welcome2TheInternet]

@@mTsp4ce Basically people who never went to university like to pretend that they respect academia by adding celebrity academics' titles to the front of their heroes' names. They think it's respectful, but it just singles them out people who have never set foot inside a university. It's fucking cringe. Dawkins does have a doctorate though, just in case you were unaware. Hence, Dr. Dawkins, regardless of how sycophantic and fawning it sounds. You'll see the same fawning behavior in the comments sections of any Dawkins or Tyson video. Hell, even that clown Jordan Peterson's comments are full of this fawning bullshit. OMG I LOVE YOU DOCTOR PETERSON. YOU ARE SO SANE AND RATIONAL....

[@mTsp4ce]

@@Welcome2TheInternet Thanks. Yes, I am aware that he has a doctorate, he also is a Professor though, so it would be more appropriate to call him Prof. Dawkins.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

hes talking garbage

[@vikisalhotra1051]

Richard Dawkins has his own podcast channel ??? Frankly speaking best thing for humanity, What a time to be alive .

[@the42the]

I sometimes teach at university in the fine arts in the U.S. and had some students struggle with biological differences when working from the life model. Pelvic differences between the sexes were of particular confusion to a few students; there was a clear regard from these students that I was being intolerant and regressive just by acknowledging the biological difference. One of the students dropped the class. As Ms. Joyce illustrates, it is an odd blindsiding to those of us on the Left (and in my case in the arts) to be intrinsically opposed as intolerant for pointing out something as simple as a difference in pelvic angle. A non-traditionally aged student in the same class was a parent with a child considering transitioning and chided me for not being sensitive enough. I asked her how we could address the skeleton in a fittingly sensitive manner, and she was at a loss.

[@balalaika852]

my ecology lecturer was doing a workshop on statistics, and when a study came up discussing how male and female differed in height, she said, "This study did not include nonbinary people, unfortunately". When I asked her why did she say that, considering all people are male and female, she lectured me on the phenomenon of intersex and that I should educate myself. She didn't seem to have any idea that nonbinary has nothing to do with disorders of sexual development. A lecturer! And trying to teach stats too. It's just embarrassing.

[@christinacorrigan-u1l]

Do you think because we have removed ourselves from the land, tat we are confused by biology?

[@wbiro]

The current young generation finds it fashionable to force psychotic delusions on the clueless world that they were born into. At the deepest level it is both a test and a protest against Continued Universal Human Cluelessness. Children find it humorous when adults are too witless to explain reality adequately.

[@TheLaurieJi]

@@balalaika852 As if it was in any way a significant data to begin with🤣

[@RichoRosai]

Back in my day (and place) it was simpler--all the stupid was on the other side. I remember in college (yes, college!), I had a biology teacher who skipped over "the evolution parts" of text books because born-again Christian, and on one occasion he positive a trick question to the class: Who has more ribs--men or women? The consensus actually materialized that men had one fewer rib because of Adam and Eve. And the teacher explained that the number of ribs was actually equal, because Adam's rib-ectomy was not heritable... So yeah, basically I was remound of this anecdote by "pelvis" and forced it into this topic :D

[@saeedTHEgreat]

What a beautiful interview. I wish there was a "science party" in America to vote for.

[@michaeldavid6832]

There kind of is. It's the Scientist Party and it's a tyrannical belief in experts instead of processes. It's the opposite of science.

[@flounder2283]

As a scientist trust me that is the last thing we need.

[@BN-hk6wf]

The last thing you need is Sleepy Joe and the Democrats?

[@buggybored]

A science party would be fantastic. No more group identity BS from the left and no more bible brainwash from the right.

[@awuma]

God help us. The governing bodies of scientific disciplines in the US have been taken over by raging Wokesters.

[@richardsilver98]

Such a mature, cogent, and genuine conversation. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[@Scimarad]

Yeah, it's weirdly unnerving isn't it? I was thinking "hey, common sense! I remember this:)"

[@lsmith6036]

​@@Scimaradyes, what, have they been drinking, normal water, they just sound sensible. And correct

[@tayler2396]

They agree on the topic. Why wouldn't this be an easygoing chat?

[@nursejoed]

@@tayler2396 I'd bet that both speakers would still be respectful even if they were speaking with people with whom they disagreed...

[@snoopy10411]

Thank you for this video. It seems like the whole trans subject is against anyone asking questions. I respect Richard enormously for all of his work.

[@tuffwith2effs899]

It would seem that way from this video wouldn't it? Interesting they'll dismiss the answers they get without engaging the subject matter, and go on to insist that the trans community is making claims that they've been told they aren't. It's one thing to disagree that there's this thing called "gender" that is separate from "sex", it's another to talk about people who do see it that way as if they don't either. It is very sad hearing a detransitioners story, but it's also sad hearing stories of trans people who never had any support. This is serious, but the discussion in this video is not the balanced a reasoned discussion it purports to be. You'd think trans people haven't been around since long before they were born.

[@Sunaki1000]

Its allways talking about Trans Folks, not whit them. Listen to counterartuments and form an actual Oppinion. They never ever dissagreed whit each other. Trans Supporter call others Bigot and theres no Equivalent? Im sorry? The Thousands of Republikans calling Trans People Groomers? Rowlings Friend who states she wants to murder Trans People? Hes not very intellectual Honest.

[@CCDR07]

Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums. I guess my main point is to question the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive... With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.

[@ruthgiles8926]

Another way that it resembles a cult.

[@IMO1964]

​@@tuffwith2effs899it's never been possible to trans male female or reverse mental facilitation. I've seen it too often. Man at work perpetuates his wife's anxiety by feeding on her mental illness

[@indigoandbrown]

I’ve been politically left all my life but for the past few years I’ve really struggled with some trans issues and the idea that trans men can just declare themselves women and I worry about kids doing irreversible damage to their bodies instead of loving themselves the way they are. It’s too bad that you two are considered “brave” to speak such common sense! Am glad to find others who feel the way I do. Thank you for this vlog.

[@TheTealHydra]

Just look at how purposefully confusing the language is. You just said "trans men" when you meant what gender believers would call "trans women" - male people that are nonetheless not "men" in their view. A lot of this nonsense has snuck past the radars of people less plugged into politics because they can't even tell what its proponents are talking about.

[@ambientjohnny]

@@TheTealHydra The activists and allies conflate sex and gender all the time themselves, and can't even define either "man" or "woman", or wtf "gender" really is.

[@hollies5841]

What 'irreversible damage'? Genuine question. As I understand it, no surgical intervention can proceed without extensive psychological involvement, and that puberty blockers are reversible.

[@evilrslade]

The same here. I've always been liberal in my opinions and still am. If you are over 18 you can do and say as you like. I cannot agree with children being given treatment for gender reassignment. It should be illegal and not available on the NHS. After 18, do what you want. The similarity with religion is salient. "Give me the child...." Targeting children. There are, biologically, only two sexes. Chromosomes.

[@JustinLHopkins]

Firstly, why are you singling out trans men? You know there are trans women too? It’s because subconsciously you’re not as accepting towards male femininity as female masculinity. You’re doing nothing more than picking on trans men which is what everyone else is doing and you’re causing harm. They do not impact your life at all. They don’t cause you any pain. They just want to get on with their lives without being treated like filth. Why do you even care what people wear or how they identify? Mind your own business, live and let live and get on with your life. You’re clearly homophobic because you only single out trans men.

[@farcenter]

I grew up in a liberal family in the north east. None of them support what's going on with trans ideology. This is also true of my peer group which is all left leaning. The ideas around trans women in sports and under age surgery for minors are not popular here on the left outside of activists. It's just you wouldn't know this if you only watched the mainstream media. Our voices are not amplified, and most are too afraid to speak out as one risks their job in a very real way. It's really alarming how fast the narrative shifted and how most people go along with the punishments for those that speak out or disagree, even though many and even most actually themselves disagree.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

If you voted Democrat, is there a safe way for you to contact your representative on this matter? Same question for your family doctor, with whom you should be able to speak confidentially?

[@apathyguy8338]

Woke and trans ideology are in a battle against freedom of speech. These people are fascistic not liberal. Don't let them claim otherwise. You're a liberal they are not.

[@jordanwright6364]

I wish it was like that here in the Scotland. The left wing among my age (under 30) believe this shit fully, Only a minority disagree

[@name-vi6fs]

There in the democratic party between liberals and progressives, and the progressives have the power. I fear the only way to fix it is to splinter and create a new party.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

Hence the importance of the stance that Maya Forstater took against her employer, about the relevance of biological sex. Helen Joyce tells her story at 47:40. It was the American headquarters that gave Ms Forstater trouble.

[@Eudaimonia88]

One of the most important and thought-provoking interviews I have had the pleasure of listening to. Two supremely thoughtful and intelligent human beings bringing us the most lucid of conversations. This conversation along with Helen Joyce's book (and Kathleen Stock's book) ought to be required watching/reading for educators, individuals in positions of power, and young people.

[@realitymatters8720]

I agree that they got around gender and sex as biology, but I wish they would have at the very least touched on the subject of developmental biology. This is where this issue becomes a real problem to define ! There are males with a brain that resembles a woman's more then a male's, and vs versa with woman, saying that such a people are any specific sex/gender makes litte sense to me.

[@ashleyl3699]

@@realitymatters8720 its called variation, bro. a man is an adult of the male sex, and brains do not determine sex, sex determines the brain. a man with a brain that overlaps with female brains is just as much of a man as a man with a height that overlaps with female height, and his brain is a male brain that has zero female cells in it.

[@carledwards7268]

Brilliant conversation by two wonderful people. Thank you Helen for the work you’re doing. You are absolutely right, this is a generation defining battle.

[@craigjones9372]

Why is it a "generation defining battle" when it affects so few people? Does it affect you?

[@LightSpell28]

@@craigjones9372 The push to redefine sex in law to a metaphysical belief affects a lot of people, actually. You're watching Dawkins, you'd reasonably object if any other metaphysical belief became the basis for laws.

[@craigjones9372]

@@LightSpell28 "The push to redefine sex in law to a metaphysical belief affects a lot of people, actually." Citation please. Who is pushing what and where? "...you'd reasonably object if any other metaphysical belief became the basis for laws." You aren't going to sneak in any lies about me. I have in no way endorsed any enshrinement into law of any nonsense that you haven't even defined.

[@LightSpell28]

@@craigjones9372 look up all the countries that have gender self-id. gender identity shouldnt trump sex, they should both have some separate legal status.

[@mgkos]

@@craigjones9372 nice trivialising there. Women are 52% of the planet. 25% of the world’s population are male children. Helen has x2 Post Doctoral degrees in Higher Mathematics, you obviously don’t hve basic school arithmetic let alone mathematics or statistics.

[@RicardoSada]

Thanks!

[@OsakaJoe01]

"Male and female aren't prizes for effort." This woman is brilliant. 😆

[@Rothko0281]

@@MichelleLouiseDavis there are people who can be male or female and then the theythem creatures.

[@jodiebasye9798]

@@MichelleLouiseDavis cis is a hateful slur.

[@jodiebasye9798]

@@MichelleLouiseDavis Every time I have heard it used it was in fact being used as a derogatory term. I AM NOT a "cis woman" I am a woman. Period. Putting the "cis" in front of it as to imply my opinion is irrelevant, or I am somehow less than a trans woman is nothing shy of insanity.

[@qarl8176]

@@jodiebasye9798 Is there a term you would prefer? "Non-trans" perhaps?

[@ambientjohnny]

@@MichelleLouiseDavis We have the term "banana", and everyone understands what a "banana" is. Then along comes alien matter from space, looks like a banana, but is composed of some unknown material, so people start calling them "space bananas". Now, your "cis" bs, is the same thing, as claiming that in the example with the "space bananas", everyone would need to start calling the regular old earth bananas "cis bananas" now, to "differentiate" between edible earth bananas and the new space "bananas" - which is absolutely ridiculous, because the differentiation "banana" / "space banana" is ALREADY as clear as it gets. Everyone who refuses to buy into the quasi-religious tenets of "trans" ideology can see that trying to force the "cis" label onto people, when a perfectly clear distinction already exists, ie "woman" (female)/ "trans woman" (male), trying to forcibly rebrand every non-trans person, as "cis", when it is ALREADY perfectly clear that they are not "trans" because they aren't using the "trans" prefix, is nonsense, and simply a manipulative tactic to try minimise the real and perceived difference. The supposed "logic" behind trying to force "cis" onto people is laughably easy to dismantle, and if you haven't got an argument that can stand up to basic scrutiny then you haven't got much of an argument.

[@cressida123]

Richard and Helen together, what a joy to listen to.

[@smaakjeks]

Ignoramuses

[@hermitrob5481]

Helen is a gem. Happy to see her on such a wide diversity of podcasts. Its making a difference.

[@AYFKMRN]

Helen is more than a gem- Ms. Joyce is an absolutely amazing person with the ability to hide her cape impeccably because I’ve yet to see it, but I’m completely certain that, as a superhero, she does wear one. Ireland has many issues, but this product of the Emerald Isle may be the best export they’ve ever produced, and it’s too bad there’s not a bumper crop.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

I agree, she is a superhero.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

@@AYFKMRN There is another Superwoman who hails from the Emerald Isle: Psychotherapist Stella O'Malley. Do you know her? If not, you should definitely check out her work.

[@CJRamos-jv3pb]

She has an awesome rack, too.

[@AYFKMRN]

@@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs thanks for the tip- I hadn’t heard of her previously but will do so now.

[@wendywoo25]

Thank you Helen for being the voice of common sense. Please keep up this very important good work

[@S7EMM]

I'm very happy to see Richard Dawkins doing a podcast, it will be exciting to see who else he will have discussions with on this platform.

[@LightSpell28]

I want Rebecca Reilly-Cooper on! Her talk to Coventry Skeptics on this subject was great, its a shame most of the skeptic movement won't touch this. That video is on youtube with a q&a, and is 7 years old or something.

[@jarrettshedd9574]

I'm grateful to Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, and Hitchens for helping me study my way out of religious extremism as an adolescent. It's great to see Dawkins still speaking out against anti-scientific extremism in all its forms. It should be possible to be kind to trans-people without diving into a new age of unreason.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

Hitchens-quote: "So you are offended. Now what is your argument?" Very, very applicable here.

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

I'm far more concerned with the MAJORITY of the atheist/self-appointed """skeptics"'" (on YT, at least), who HAVE unquestioningly embracef the 100% evidence-free ideology of (sex-independent) "gender", regardless of the fact it shares THE EXACT SAME standard of evidence as the traditional religions, who they smugly act so superior to. Matt Dillahunty is the most obvious example, with his enthusiastic promotion of the irreversable mutilation of 100% healthy children, justified by exactly ZERO empirical evidnce of any medical issue, whatsoever... Off the top of my head, there's also Aron Ra, Katy Montgomery, Jimmy Snow, Seth Andrews, even T.J Kirk. These people should NOT be allowed to quietly sweep this aside, and go back to pwning Evangelicals, like nothing happened. I have NEVER been a fan of "cancel culture" (unlike most listed above...), but actively, consistently promoting chemical sterlilization of gay lesbian and autistic children (over 80% of needlessly mutilated detransitioners are same-sex attracted), based on a 100% IDENTICAL standard of evidence, to that used to justify Islamic FGM, is different to Tweeting an edgy joke once in 2014, or associating with the wrong people. From where I stand, this has been the atheist/"""skeptic""" version of the Catholic child abuse issue- We have ALL had to make a choice; Either (1) prioritize the physical protection of children, the rights, safety, and self-determination of (evidence-based) women. And most importantly, prioritizing CONSISTENT STANDARDS OF EVIDENCE-BASED TRUTH... Even IF that means "going against your own tribe", and being called a "hateful transphobic bigot" on Twitter... Or else (2) we could choose to prioritize the latest-greatest left-wing cause of the day, even though that meant REJECTING consistent standards of evidence, and SACRIFICING the rights and safety of women, of gays and lesbians. And (IMO worst of all) sacrificing the health, safety and rights of children, all in the name of SIDING WITH "the tribe", standard political "team sports", and opposing atheism's (and the left's) "traditional enemy" of the religious right (who happened to land on the CORRECT side of this one issue. "Even a broken clock..." as the saying goes). At its core, it's the same decision Catholics faced a decade or two back, that we as atheists have been (justifiably... AS LONG as we hold ourselves to the same standard...) not letting them live down, ever since; The choice to either protect "your side", even when that means letting children get harmed and sacrificing principles... or to STAND BY your principles, and PROTECT children, even when that means "going against the tribe"... People like Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Peter Boghossian, etc have STOOD BY their principles, and PASSED the test that the Catholic establishment failed... But atheists/seld-appointed """skeptics""" like Matt Dillahunty, Aron Ra, Katy Montgomery,Jimmy Snow, Seth Andrews, etc all acted JUST as immoral, unethical and intellectually dishonest, as the Catholic hierarchy did... And those atheists were arguably even MORE enthusiastic and pro-active, in their encouragement of 100% needless, irreversable harm to children, for NO evidnce-based reason,at all... (to be clear, I'm not comparing Dillahunty and pals to the Catholic priests who PHYSICALLY ABUSED children... merely to the priests who CHOSE TO ACTIVELY PROTECT THE ABUSERS, regardless of the harm to children...)

[@undignified2843]

You're blind if you think you aren't religious. You just have no clue what exactly your god is. Even the great atheist prophet Dawkins has a god.

[@HobNut-r1f]

No need to be kind to fetistists! And most of the Atheist lot have been utterly useless, pro trans etc and Dawkins has taken ages!

[@andynovak8347]

@@vicw9223 you seem to be suffering a condition known as intelligence dysphoria

[@chrisb9345]

Love you Richard and Helen for speaking sense against this nonsense. This is a conversation I will watch again every few years, I think.

[@archangelarielle262]

It's a strawman. The entire time he's conflating sex and gender. When a biologically born male who is trans, they are not saying they are now a biologically female (changing chromosomes is just a technological limitation for now, and not to mention women with vaginas can be born with XY chromosomes regardless), all they are saying is they are feeling consonance with that sex which is all gender is. It is completely biologically based, as the brain/ mind is physiological. There is no female/ male brain, just a brain. And there's no treatment outside gender affirmation. Why cannot definitions adapt? How would you define a chair? Because you could sit on anything. Someone losing their genitalia to cancer doesn't make them less of that sex/gender.

[@collapseobserver]

@@archangelarielle262 Define 'gender'. Many see it as just a pile of regressive stereotypes that we spent the last few decades trying to abolish, or at least reduce the importance of. The conflation of sex and gender comes from the trans activists. They say it's about 'gender' (expectations/stereotypes/performance) and downplay the significance of diagnosable health conditions (gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia), but then demand drugs, major surgery, and to be treated as the opposite *sex* in situations where sex really does matter, rather than just be accepted and respected as a gender non-conformer. Encouraging kids to be gender-nonconforming is great, but telling them that they can actually change sex, encouraging them to seek medical transition, and to become obsessed with 'identity' is terrible. But a lot of it is now political, isnt it?, It's about recruiting for a political movement, not about the best outcomes for those kids.

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

​​​@@archangelarielle262You make the crucial point yourself: At present, going to the hospital to have one's chromosomes changed -- that is, in every cell of one's body -- is not an option ... and won't be for a ve-e-ry long time ... probably never will be. And yet, in our times, "gender affirmative care" is suggest-sold by authority figures and institutions to impressionable young people and their parents, as if this torturous procedure would transform a person into a member of the opposite sex.

[@AverageAlien]

​@archangelarielle262 There is a female/male brain actually. Lmao. Nice fantasy. Reality disagrees. There is zero evidence for the existence of your fantasy. You will never be able to swap chromosomes. End of.

[@AverageAlien]

​@archangelarielle262 You are a delusional cultist. I will never change my language to accommodate deluded 21st century cults. You cannot change gender, ever. There is no such thing as "gender affirmation" that's just called delusion.

[@enestrumicETPraxis]

Great video. Two reasonable beings who are fighting for society to be aware of reality.

[@jakeenvelopes9561]

Correction, you mean "two people who both believe the same thing about the same topic".

[@stanculescugabriel]

​@@jakeenvelopes9561 here goes mister leftist. Yes mister Open Minded, you see, the sad thing is that the bright minds of this world must come to explain such simple, basic, obvious, normal things, desperately trying to stop this world to transform the delusion into mainstream

[@stellafalconer6715]

Such a joy to listen to this conversation between two such intelligent and articulate people. Thank you, Helen and Richard, very much indeed.

[@NachtmahrNebenan]

Dear Professor Dawkins, please have a chat with biologist *Marie-Luise Vollbrecht* : her talk was cancelled at Humboldt(!) University in Berlin because of the topic about the biology of XX and XY chromosomes. She was even hunted by the public service media and discredited as a transphobic "Fish biologist". Thank you 🌺

[@smokexsmoke99]

Chromosomes aren’t the only things determining sex and gender. It’s a lot more complicated that we learned in grade school. There are cases where two fertilized eggs fuse and the fetus can develop with some tissues with XX chromosomes and some with XY chromosomes. It is difficult to test for since it involves tissue sampling from the involved organs and we don’t know which those are. It is probably much more common than realized because it is only diagnosed when testing for something like maternity/paternity. There are cases where women were told that they were not their children’s mother because the genes in the ovaries were different from those tested in the blood or saliva. It would be interesting to see if some trans people are chimeric and the brain has different genes than the rest of the body. People don’t know how rare this is because it is not tested for. It could certainly account for many cases where people were transgender. Bigot's definition of what is normal and what is not is flawed. Who gave you the right to say that just because XX and XY are in the majority then anything else is an aberration. Using that logic, anyone with blue eyes is not normal. Or anyone who is gay or Jewish. Eugenics is a scary thing. I have given an example of a normal variant where the cells in the brain could be XX and those in the rest of the body XY. Did people notice that a large number of the XX/XY chimeras functioned normally as men or women, including normal fertility?

[@JimNicholls]

In Christchurch, New Zealand, the local council advertises "Women's Wednesdays" at a swimming pool, promising that women can feel safe, with only female staff and with the blinds closed to prevent peeping Toms. But they say that "All women are welcome, including trans women and people who identify as a woman" - in other words, men, so how safe is that? The world has gone crazy for sure.

[@KopperNeoman]

They said you can FEEL safe, not BE safe. If they wanted you to BE safe, men would be welxomed, and it would be leftists banned instead.

[@EASTSIDERIDER707]

What is wrong with a woman who feels “unsafe” swimming with men present? Sounds like an anxiety disorder to me.

[@Jimfowler82]

@@EASTSIDERIDER707certainly could be. But why not allow them some time to enjoy their swimming with Reduced anxiety?

[@kiraalialeeonfairythegreenone]

​@@EASTSIDERIDER707 There are examples of full males with intact genitals who are claiming to be trans females and stating they have a right to use female swimming pool change rooms...and are literally exposing themselves to female children and women as well as watching female children and women disrobe into their swim clothes.That is male Voyuerism and male Exhibitionism and paedophilia. Not all transgender females are genuine trans. They're males who are using wokism to their advantage and a way to get away with their perverse s****l behaviours. They're using the trans label to increase access to their female prey... their victims. It is happening. And that is why women must have women only venues to protect genuine females of all ages. It is not neuroticism or an anxiety disorder. It is a matter of safety and security for genuine females of all ages.

[@DocReasonable]

Sounds like that's based in Islamic culture.

[@glenwithonein]

I think adults can do whatever the want that doesn't harm someone else. But I am categorically against any elective medical procedures for minors, regardless of what it is. And I fully agree that allowing biological males in women's sports is unambiguously antifeminist. Literally slowly erasing the hard earned achievements of women.

[@qarl8176]

While it's good that you support the autonomy of adults, it's important to note that medical interventions for transgender minors are often supported by extensive medical and psychological evaluations. These are not decisions taken lightly, and many medical organizations stand behind the best practices for treating minors with gender dysphoria. Regarding sports, it's a nuanced issue that requires balancing fairness with inclusivity. Many sports organizations are implementing policies that aim to create a level playing field for everyone involved, taking into account more than just biological sex. Dismissing these efforts as "antifeminist" simplifies a complex debate.

[@fluffyfour]

@@qarl8176 I know I feel very differently about things as an adult, and have psychologically changed immensely since I was a child. If I had been held, by medical intervention, to something I was even maybe 'obsessed' (not a good word but it exemplifies children's thought processes) with as a child, I may be more psychologically damaged throughout my life and needing to seek further medical and psychological intervention.

[@UnchainedEruption]

I agree with you to an extent. However, just because adults can do things which harm themselves, it doesn't mean society should encourage it. We allow tobacco, vaping, drinking, even marijuana in some states now. Just because you are free to indulge these things doesn't mean you should, or that society should encourage their use. On the contrary, we educate people about the negative side effects, we fight the people who advertise these products to get kids addicted, and we have huge warning labels about the possible injuries. The way things are now, even the adults who elect to undergo hormone therapy or surgery aren't being properly educated about the long term costs of the procedures. Let alone adults, even kids as young as in kindergarten are being lied to on a fundamental level about what it means to be human.

[@excore340]

So I'm a little confused. Isn't it considered a mental illness? To have gender disphoria

[@BendyLemmy]

Whilst you seem to think that the debates are complex, the vast majority of people in this world would support the simple definitions for male and female to apply in sports - and transgender athletes should simply accept that they don't fit. It's not a social construct, it's physical sport.@@qarl8176

[@pankakesnotstellar]

At 25:00 Prof. Dawkins makes the quintessential liberal argument: we can give away pronouns for politeness and kindness and Helen masterfully counters it with the consequences of that action, namely: you're giving away everything else too and we've seen it in practice, it ends with men in women's spaces and destroying women's rights and boundaries. This is a very important hammer counter-argument when debating this.

[@memoryhero]

The way Helen takes the time to slow way down and delineate the direct line from capitulation on the pronoun to more consequential trouble is really awesome.

[@Simchen]

Sorry but that line of reasoning is called "The slippery slope fallacy". You can do one thing without having to commit to other things. A quick reminder. Gender Dysphoria is real and some people are suffering from it. If I can ease their pain by using a preferred pronoun I will gladly do so.

[@zeff8820]

​@@Simchenbut that doesnt mean you need a hormone and surgery to treat it.

[@pankakesnotstellar]

​@Simchen the slippery slope fallacy occurrs when the imagined escalations don't happen or aren't credible, in the trans case, they have ALL already happened, it's a statement of fact as to what the consequences were of being "polite". Please engage one brain cell if you have it.

[@memoryhero]

@@pankakesnotstellar Exactly - I wanted to write this very thing when I read the charge of the slippery slope from Simchen this morning. Glad someone else got to it. The slippery slope is a fallacy where you DON'T delineate how one thing leads to another, but Joyce does in fact delineate it in excruciating detail and with very forthright, fulsome logic. It is a masterclass in extemporaneous speech. Joyce is a verbal titan. Helen, in this case - not James. ;)

[@nandaherhoust8628]

I just found this after getting death threats in my Uni for being a radical feminist and a gender critical. I really needed this, not feel like "maybe i'm the weird one".

[@gabrielmills2361]

I hope you are not alone but in touch with other gender critical students and people generally, for moral support. The gender ideology cult is deeply misogynist and homophobic, and operates by bullying and silencing. Its verbal violence is becming ever more physical, especially towards women. Hope you stay safe.

[@anapontopina86]

What happened? Have you considered legal protection? There are crowdfunding platforms

[@impossibleagent3663]

You’re not the weird one.

[@impossibleagent3663]

Sanity itself is under attack. Strangely uni’s are one of the hardest places to be in now.

[@DorianPaige00]

@@ThinkTwice-hy5hy7so3j Don't try to legislate our medicine away and you won't get death threats. Continue testifying before Congress and quite frankly, we have no other choice.

[@mayhu3282]

Very nice interview, I've seen you both often talk about this topic in other venues, but this one was extremely relaxed, and Helen gave some pieces of information I hadn't heard before. ❤

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

which piece of information was that?

[@penfro]

“Male and female are not prizes for effort.” - Helen Joyce That’s the-slam dunk, Mr. Dawkins.

[@CCDR07]

I think the focus of this conversation is entirely displaced from where it needs to be, and that is analyzing the role of gross inequalities in power/influence in society. Trans activists are not 'sweeping' away the ability of woman to define themselves, or the scientific understanding of human biology, (there's also heaps of cultural, physical, and physiological diversity within the group "woman" anyway"). Trans people are not challenging what a woman is, and they are not who are oppressing woman. It's the patriarchy! Or more broadly, its the system of gross power/influence inequalities based on wealth that enables some individuals and institutions to oppress, persecute, or ignore others. Its patriarchical institutions if anything who wants to be in charge of defining sexes, just ask the christian churches, just ask right wing idealogues, just ask most commentors who kick back against trans-activists and anyone else trying to seek justice or a safe place from oppression by this system, just ask the CEOS of multi-nationals who align their stores and entertainment venues to whatever demographics or social trends they think will make them the most money... The greatest potential to challenge our current configuration of entrenched hierarchies of wealth/power lies along socio-economic lines, not gender/identity lines. The power held by powerful men (or woman) in modern society largely depends on wealth and its associated myths (e.g., meritocracy: the myth that rich people deserve to be rich and poor people deserve to be poor, the myth that free market dynamics can function in the presence of gross wealth inequalities, the myth that something's value to the human and more than human world is represented by its price, the myths that brands and labels can define us, etc., etc.). In short, the power of all elites and their institutions to work in their own self-interest while subverting the interests of the less powerful is through wealth. WEalth poured into advertising, wealth poured into lobbying, wealth poured into political campaigns, wealth poured into outright bribery and corruption, etc. You want to challenge patriarchy? you want to engender a fair and equitable society? Then challenge the concentration and entrenchment of wealth in individuals and institutions. Lots of these other issues and problems will evaporate when our individual material well-being and security isn't presaged by how much wealth we earn.

[@penfro]

@@CCDR07 “Trans people are not challenging g what a woman is” >> Yes, yes they are. They are precisely doing that. - the populace treated ‘Gender’ as a simple genteel SYNONYM for sex. Not some vague notion of a feeling in one’s head. - Social behaviour, how one feels or expresses oneself, does not affect one’s sex / gender - the Transgender movement relies on ingraining misogynistic sex behaviour stereotypes of which western societies have been chipping away since the 1950s. - No woman has, or had, a penis. - There are only two gametes. There is no such thing as non-binary gender. - Everyone has a unique persona which includes one’s manifestation of a particular mix of masculine/feminine traits. Persona has no bearing on whether one is male or female. - If you want, persona is non-binary, not gender/sex. - Apart perhaps from radically hermaphrodite babies, no one is assigned their sex at birth. Male or female is observed, based on prospective gamete type production, and immutable. - Gender has ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with power and who is or isn’t oppressed. It has nothing to do with socialism or equality / inequality.

[@Ineedabreather]

​@@CCDR07I'd argue that trans ideology works in tandem with the patriarchy as biological males still have a stance of power in places where trans ideology is widely accepted. A personal example is in my small liberal town, a self identified trans women have been caught peeping at women and children over their stalls within the last 5 years. They have been caught 2 times by women in the locker room but got away each time due to the staff being afraid of getting in trouble for discrimination. The fact of the matter is trans women are at risk of ridicule and violence in certain parts of the world, yes, but they are also at a physical advantage over women everywhere no matter the political setting. Especially transwomen who still have pensises. We see this with prisoners being raped and even impregnated by self identified trans women. How is this not a threat to women? I also push against the assertion that trans activists are not trying to take away women's right to speak how they'd like or trying to destroy the reality of sex. First of all, we are removing language that works for the majority to appeal to the minority in medical care, not when the minority is being cared for, but around the board. Using words like chest feeders, uterus Havers, birthers, which is seen as dehumanizing to many women, but that doesn't seem to matter because people with vaginas don't matter as much, which is due to the patriarchyyoh speak of. Notice how very little accommodations there are for trans men. Medical and journalist terminology hasn't changed to call men penis Havers or sperm donors. Also the term assigned male or female at birth is a direct affront to the material reality that sex is real and for the majority and for the normal functioning, is visible identifiable, so yes, there is an attack on sex, which is a serious problem, particularly for medical purposes. Most trans men continue to compete in women's spaces but trans women are now going into women's. Why is that? If it's about being true to your identity, why are trans men not competing with other men? Trans men are at an advantage with upped testosterone AND trans women are at an advantage for having a male body, even with the lowering of strength via estrogen. How is this not an attack on biological women's rights to equity and just safety of their body? The patriarchy is also a huge reason why so many young women are now identifying as trans, trans identification of adolescent females has SKYROCKETED within a mere decade, and it makes sense considering the dire reality of being female in a patriarchal society. It's also a fact that 90% of these youth find themselves not actually trans when gone through adolescence, and many of them ending up actually homosexual, so the current tran movement as it stands also benefits from homophobia as well as the patriarchy. I am not saying therefore let's not give trans people opportunities, accommodations or respect as fellow human beings. What I am saying is we need to find a way to exist within material reality AND honour people's unique experiences. If there is nothing wrong with being trans, why try and skew biological reality? And I am also saying that I agree, patriarchy and wealth disparity are a HUGE issue and are tangibly harming people, for many demographics much more directly than trans ideology, but trans ideology is intertwined with patriarchy and homophobia, so it is a part of the puzzle

[@stefcep]

@@CCDR07 "Lots of these other issues and problems will evaporate when our individual material well-being and security isn't presaged by how much wealth we earn".- so you want things that belong to others, given out to those that did nothing for it ie for free. That was tried in the 20th century. It was called Communism.

[@ismelllikemarijuana]

@@CCDR07uh

[@OldTimer16s]

I Love Dawkins ❤️

[@fionagregory9147]

Me too.

[@nickaslanidis6156]

People call him a conservative and even alt right now. It's so ridiculous.

[@OldTimer16s]

@@nickaslanidis6156 because people have lost their minds! Dawkins is the single most rational person I've come across. His arguments are precise and whenever he approaches a territory that he doesn't have sufficient knowledge of, he doesn't pretend- he says it like it is and admits that he'll have to read about it. I admire him for his sincerity and good intent in any and all argumentations he ever had. It saddens me that he's getting older and that I will probably never get to meet and thank him in person for influencing my personality the way he did.

[@nickaslanidis6156]

@OldTimer16s i understand, I've been reading his books since the early 90s. This is not a topic he's ignorant of, this is area of expertise and people should listen to him.

[@OldTimer16s]

@@nickaslanidis6156 that is true! It is a matter of simple sixth grade biology

[@LittleMissPyeWacket]

Thank you Richard, please keep up the conversation and fight, this really does matter.

[@dear_dennis]

It is so refreshing to see how two people discuss things in a peaceful way.

[@MrChipsugar]

Yep. It's just a shame they both already agree with each other. If they disagreed and remained civil it would have inspired some hope.

[@saga-pt9nd]

I was born in Iran. I have been living in Canada for 20 years now. In Iran, you are pressured into buying into religious nonsense and speaking out against it gets you in trouble. That is precisely why I left Iran. Now in Canada, if I say what my opinion is about religion (that it is nonsense) or what my opinion is about the woke culture (that it is nonsense), I also get in trouble. It is even worse for people like me to experience this kind of stuff in a western society after coming here to escape them in our home country. It is utterly sad to see a large group of people lose their minds and for the insane to take over. Thank you both for spreading common sense.

[@thomasdupont7186]

ok one thing though, what people have suffered in Iran for not complying with the theocracy is in NO WAY c comparable with people speaking against wokism in the western world honesty. That is a bad comparison.

[@ericah6546]

​@@thomasdupont7186I think you get their point though, no?

[@ericah6546]

The world is always changing. Right now we are in a time when the tides are changing a lot. Hold on, it will be a ride but it will be ok.

[@louc6635]

Another fake troll

[@SuperChicken666]

In America today, there are people who will try to have you removed from a public space if you wear the wrong color hat.

[@martinda7446]

Richard Dawkins said these women were brave to speak out. Prof, so are you. I knew you wouldn't consider keeping quiet seeing such a perversion of science and language. Everybody needs to be brave now.

[@swanofnutella4734]

There are so many atheists who fail to bring their skeptical rigor on this issue. I'm glad to see Dawkins display some semblance of reason.

[@LightSpell28]

About 7 years ago i saw a video on youtube, Rebecca Reilly-Cooper's talk to Coventry Skeptics. Its really good and also has a q&a video. It sucks how much the skeptic community dropped the ball on this one.

[@Lycaerix]

Unfortunately, atheism isn't an inoculation against irrational beliefs or even religiosity, as this nonsense has proved.

[@swanofnutella4734]

@@Lycaerix Sad but true, but what I really lament is not just atheists per se, but the disappointments of those who make a big verbal deal about active, conscious, skepticism, and yet....

[@churblefurbles]

Honestly they've been sticking their heads in the sand since it became obvious atheism is a darwin award.

[@berrygirlfinn]

Matt, we’re talking to you….

[@NapaValleyVegan]

I hated my body as a child. I wanted to crawl out of my skin. I had my period at 11 and breasts by 12. I had an eating disorder by 13. And still I felt ugly & boyish. I never recall wanting to be a boy. But it took me decades to appreciate my curves and to defeat anorexia. Having grown up in a tiny town in N Michigan, I am so grateful that I was not exposed to gender identity or who knows what could have happened to me. 😮

[@captain_cgc2413]

Thank you for sharing. ❤

[@joshuarock4631]

we all go through it but i am white gay man(bith) whose trans love my body now , we all have different journeys , hormones wont hurt most kids , everyone should chill trans panic is a fabrication created , its propaganda using the few narcissistic youth on tiktok, to represent a small group amongst a small group lol its sad , distracting us from real issues

[@lieshtmeiser5542]

It interests me why you went this way around puberty and beyond. What were the causes? Did you have people around you giving negative feedback about how you look? Were your family critical? Did you want to have a partner and they rejected you? I have had my own experiences back around puberty, eg having a total crush, and being gently pushed away (mercifully)...i look back of course and see we were so young it was silly, too young to marry, sex wouldve been a bad idea etc. As you say "im so grateful...or who know could have happened to me..." . Lucky things were different back then.

[@teaberrywmn]

You were a victim of the patriarchy's idea of femininity and beauty.

[@laurenraine]

Thank you! Wonderful, clear conversation.

[@gapho5198]

12:56 This is nudge theory at work, presenting 3 "options" where only one is displayed in a "cool" or "exciting" manner. The purpose of that book is explicitly to confuse children about themselves.

[@Alberich_Prince_of_Dwarves]

Thank you for being pillars of sanity and reason in this insane and unreasonable time we live in.

[@billyjoelbeans]

Gender has always been a role. Eunuchs were a third gender in certain societies. Gender absolutely is a spectrum; its merely how you represent. Is there literally anything to argue with there? Because genuinely, every counter to that I've seen is totally schizophrenic or a etymology fallacy. What's your 0.02$?

[@ragnarlothbruk8145]

@@billyjoelbeans there is no suck spectrum anywhere except in the inferior intellects of deranged individuals perpetually victims of their own existential and identity crisis. I pity such individuals, but in no circumstances I take them seriously.

[@Rothko0281]

@@billyjoelbeans Richard Dawkins is right, JKR is right, the GT movement is right, Lia Thomas is a man, a man can never be a woman no matter how he may identify. End of the story.

[@billyjoelbeans]

@@Rothko0281 If you would call a male a woman in any circumstance, that is wrong. You would; gender is not sex. You are either a bigot or slow.

[@pearlspiers4779]

@@Rothko0281100% agree.

[@PhoticSneezeOne]

It is like the "Loretta" scene from Life of Brian where John Cleese states: "it is symbolic of his struggle against reality"

[@blackwolfe638]

I was surprised at how well that scene has aged! :)

[@Culpride]

The joke in that scene is that Loretta wants to have babies. Wich is not possible, no matter how accepted her transition is. Because people can't change their sex, they can only change their gender.

[@darXcore]

Splendidly lucid conversation, thank you.

[@padraigadhastair4783]

I knew it, brilliant conversation. Thank you Richard, thank you Helen. Cheers.

[@Wolfeur]

I cannot overstate how important it is, and how happy I am, that you, an eminent scientist and public figure, are willing to criticise a movement that has become incredibly divisive and highly partisan. When I see many great people embrace uncritically trans rhetoric and so many crazy people go against it, I feel conflicted about my stance on the matter. It feels very comforting to know that there are great, rational minds, and good people that are _actually_ sharing my opinions.

[@Hidinginyourcupboard]

Men (even the nice ones) are necessarily separated from women in particular ways. That is not bigoted towards men. Wanting trans identified men kept separate in the same way is also not bigoted.

[@ryaugn]

It’s so nice and refreshing to listen to a formidable advocate for atheism talk about the trans issues from a scientific perspective, who also hasn’t absorbed the trans ideology unquestionably. As someone who grew up, listening to The Atheist Experience, and other great atheist speakers, who always seem to be in science based, one of the most disappointing things has been watching the principles of science and rationality, become put on the back burner for political and ideological motives.

[@lindamckenzie1537]

Great interview. Please have Helen Joyce back again, and also Kathleen Stock, Kara Dansky, Debra Soh, Abigail Shrier, Joanna Williams, Andrew Doyle, Colin Wright and others who are standing up against this regressive lunacy. And thank you for adding your own voice.

[@Clem62]

Don't forget Graham Linehan!

[@Velaya818]

And Miriam Grossman!

[@shahw1]

If you enjoyed this, as I did, thought I'd add this for those who're interested: Reading list: Hags by @glosswitch Material Girls by @Docstockk Defending Women's Spaces by @K_IngalaSmith Time to Think by @hannahsbee Irreversible Damage @AbigailShrier The Abolition of Sex @KDansky The End of the World Is Flat @simonjedge Unpacking Queer Politics” (2003), by Sheila Jeffreys, which critiques female-to-male transsexualism as capitulation to misogyny. Sheila Jeffreys’s released “Gender Hurts: A Feminist Analysis of the Politics of Transgenderism.” @Serena_Partrick had an excellent list going too. 💜🤍💚🙏

[@simonhadley8829]

And Bill Burr.

[@mr.mcbeavy1443]

​@@simonhadley8829😂😂😂

[@Eukng]

Helen Joyce needs to be on as many platforms as possible. A woman needs to take the reigns in this fight. She is eloquent and an evident leader. I hope she is seen everywhere soon.

[@d.d.8745]

She should be, but the opposition threatens violence. The platforms and more importantly the institutions that would benefit most from a debate of ideas have opted for the kind of censorship we railed against in the Bush years.

[@DosYeobos]

@@La_Mondeshe is. What is your argument against what is being said here?

[@mrpipps90]

@@La_Mondethere is no such thing as a transgender person. There are only people with gender dysphoria. I’m sorry if you have gender dysphoria, it must be very difficult. However, there is no such thing as being “born in the wrong body” as there is nothing but the body. The psyche and the body are not separate. It doesn’t really matter how much you have thought about any of this. You are simply what you were born as and you will never be anything different. You just happen to live in a time where you have the ability to change the appearance of your body. If you have decide to attempt to fool the rest of the world to make living life more bearable then more power to you. I wish you all the luck in your charade.

[@CCDR07]

@@La_Monde Thanks for your well-thought out and comprehensive replies. I don't think I could stress enough the role that entrenched wealth/power striving to maintain the teetering economic hierarchies that plague modern globalized society (along with plutocratic and patriarchical goverments and social instutions, which you alude to) play in maintaining the anger of said mob. Anything to divert attention away from class-based inequalities and injustices, and their inherent dysfunctions (e.g., destroying the environment, irradicating indigenous societies and other ways of being, etc.

[@ZotzPhasmo]

@@DosYeobos University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?!

[@sarahwilson2409]

It’s just the emperors new clothes, we’re just waiting for the rest of the villagers to join in with us in calling it out

[@salgado1390]

What a breath of fresh air in the midst of all this idiocy

[@Medina-bk2fo]

@residentzero Well, it's nice to FINALLY get recognized, but the Gender Critical movement has been going strong for about five years now, but Helen Joyce's book DID give our cause a boost, thank goodness for her! Speak up about us because now WE are getting accused of being right wing merely for not believing human beings can change s3x.

[@lynnebarnes3840]

When I saw, Dawkins and Joyce were having a discussion, I dropped everything to listen. Love them both.

[@smaakjeks]

Why? They're wrong.

[@lynnebarnes3840]

@@smaakjeks just the kind of nuanced, evidence rich and intelligent response that can be expected from the pro trans side. Lol.

[@smaakjeks]

@@lynnebarnes3840 Are you able to have an intelligent, evidence-based discussion about gender and sex?

[@Diamondsparkle788]

​@@smaakjeks If transwomen are real women, why don't mausculinw men want to marry them and have babies with them. Because they want a real woman that's why, not a feminine male.

[@lynnebarnes3840]

@@smaakjeks of course, I'm a real woman who has pushed two babies out of my body, through my, natural, healthy, self lubricating vagina. I'm also an ex nurse who passed biology. I'm now a farmer, I know how mammals breed. I am not a confused child. I'm qualified all right, what do you want to know?

[@AALavdas]

Congratulations Prof. Dawkins for defending logic, reality - and innocent children. Some of your colleagues, eager to follow current trends, should take notice.

[@Lycaerix]

@@La_Monde More projection from a groupthink cult. Religion really doesn't change its spots, huh?

[@rickwyant]

Like Neil Degrass Tyson

[@zilchnilton]

like Matt Dillahunty. All of a sudden observed evidence goes out the window.

[@SpiralingOut23]

@@zilchnilton Dillahunty is not a "colleague" of Dawkins - they aren't even on the same level. I think a closer comparison to Dillahunty would be TheAmazingAtheist.

[@singingway]

Women are asked to welcome a man into their changing room to be nice and to keep him safe. If a man in a dress is not safe in the mens bathroom, then thats a problem for all the men to solve. Men need to make it safe for men presenting any way at all to use their spaces. It is not womens' responsibility to make that accomodation!

[@isoldam]

Beautifully said! Thank you.

[@memoryhero]

Fantastic point. Thanks for laying this one out.

[@realolivertwisted]

Fantastic comment!! 🥳

[@debjane7]

Exactly. Women are not a shield for male on male violence.

[@ashleyl3699]

its the biblical story of sodom and gomorrah playing out in real life - throwing the women out be raped, in order to save some precious men from it.

[@Nina_Olivia]

The meeting of two brilliant minds. Wonderful, thought-provoking discussion.

[@OccamsEraserhead]

"Where's the foetus gonna gestate? In a box!?"

[@budd2nd]

I consider myself extremely fortunate that I was born (a girl) in the 1960s. So being an “Tom boy” was just accepted. Today I would have found myself indoctrinated into thinking I am a male. Just for clarity I am 100% happily a regular female. I just prefer many things that have been considered typically masculine. But I do not identify as a man I am biologically and psychologically, definitely female. But it is only sheer luck because I was born before this gender madness took hold. Otherwise, I would have been shoehorned into being a trans-person when I am not confused about my gender. My gender expression is just on the preconceived outer limits of female. In some ways, what is going on today with gender identity, feels like a societal regression. Rather than be able to express our gender in ways that make us comfortable, people are being forced to pick a binary idea of gender. Being put into a box of men only behave this way, females only behave that way. Therefore more feminine males are being told that they are actually female. Likewise more masculine women (like me) are being told that they are actually males! If biology has taught us anything, it is that organisms do not fit neatly into man made, human defined boxes!!

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

"It is up to us on the left to walk this thing back. I want liberals to make room for gender diversity -- and that includes masculine girls and feminine boys -- WITHOUT telling them they need to leave their sex category, because they are different." Lisa Selin Davis, Author of "Tomboy", In the trailer for the documentary, "No Way Back" (2023). Given the current behaviour of the Democratic Party, this would have to be a long haul project, starting from the grassroots? This would need a new, non compromised, younger generation of politicians in that party?

[@wearemany73]

I’m a guy but damn, me too. Pure luck to be born in the 70’s

[@lynsey4224]

I was a Tom boy too and I remember literally crying to my mother saying I wish I was a boy. I was actually in tears. I'm not sure how I actually felt at that moment, whether I literally wanted a penis and to be fully male or whether I just wanted to be one of the boys as my friends were boys. But I'm glad that it wasn't taken seriously because of course I don't actually want to be male. I'm a woman and I know I'm a woman. I have nothing against trans people at all, I'm a live and let live type of person. But I often wonder had I cried about wanting to be a boy in 2023 how would it go down? And how would parents, schools etc have reacted to it? Would they start calling me he/them? I don't know. I totally understand that what I was experiencing probably wasn't feeling trapped in the wrong body, it was different to what actual trans people experience I'm sure. But I do think people's reaction to it now would have been different and possibly could have led me down a path I didn't want to go down. I also cried over the idea of growing breasts so if someone suggested that there was something I could do would I have wanted it? For me personally it was a phase and something I grew out of. This is why I think it's important to maybe wait as long as you can before making such life changing decisions. Be gay, be trans, be a damn space hopper for all I care but I just think it's wise to wait until you're an adult before you make those decisions.

[@budd2nd]

@@lynsey4224 Yes, you might well have been started on puberty blockers nowadays !!! It's a scary thought.

[@somniumisdreaming]

@@lynsey4224 same here!

[@AndyKinOz]

Terrific interview with intelligent clear thinking and 'knowing' people. Thank you.

[@stevendunn2501]

Amazing interview.

[@BM-xd7cm]

Every child should have a Richard Dawkins as a Science Teacher at school - great communicatoin, clear, concise, calm, authoritative backed up by in depth knowledge.

[@andrewtrobec9182]

I liked this so hard my thumb is hurting and now I think I need to apologise to my phone.

[@cynic252]

i agree but much of what both of thgem say in this is wrong

[@BM-xd7cm]

@@cynic252 specifically? What are your credentials, given you're saying experts in their fields are wrong, you need to establish your credibility.

[@jimmaughan1898]

@@BM-xd7cm Neither Dawkins nor Joyce are experts in the field they're discussing. Why not ask them?

[@BM-xd7cm]

@@jimmaughan1898 😂😂

[@theblackrainbow1]

Thank you R. Dawkins for speaking and making it freely available to listen to . I have read and enjoyed so many of your books, absolutely brilliant

[@phillipdean9830]

I'm so glad he's making videos again!!!

[@theblackrainbow1]

@@phillipdean9830 absolutely. Now this might sound a bit off, but he is getting older and we need his mind to produce as much as possible to be handed down to the generations to come 😬 That being said, I hope he lives a long long happy life

[@mattbradbury]

@@theblackrainbow1 🤮

[@PinkiePi]

I'm so glad someone is having this conversation. In much the same vein, I don't have anything against trans, or people of any sexual identity. But I do feel that there would be a lot less of it, less as an ideology, if our society were more accepting of effeminate males and masculine females. If we allow people to be who they are, they don't have to try to identify as anything else. They don't need a label to make it okay to be themselves. It is really unfortunate that it has gone to such extremes, but I think it is a symptom of an overall intolerant society that I hope, in time, will come to accept everyone for who they are and what they choose to do with who they are. All of this "be a man" and "that's what a man does" nonsense is what drives people into such deep insecurity. No, a man does not inherently fight, and work on cars, and shoot guns, and whatever. If a male enjoys knitting, cooking, scrapbooking, etc., all of the stereotypically female activities, that's what a man does. If a female wants to fight, and play rough sports, and whatnot, then that is what a woman does. Nobody should be told to stop doing what they enjoy doing to "be more ladylike" or "be a man". Let people be who they are, let them live the lives they want to. There certainly are some cultures where the gender roles are more firmly ingrained, but it is societal as a whole. Thank you for this fantastic conversation.

[@elliemitchell3078]

Seconded. People should be allowed to just be themselves, without these age-old stereotypes. :) x

[@marilynmunro5838]

You don't have to be a "masculine female" - females as well as males come in a glorious variety and climbing trees and fighting is absolutely ok.

[@kurtellestad4070]

So..... If a man wants to be called a woman (for ANY reason), is that alright?

[@kurtellestad4070]

Also...... I disagree with you THANKING people for having this conversation. NO ONE can shut up about it!

[@juliecarne7706]

I agree and I just don’t want a trans woman who has done no transitioning or medical intervention they are not welcome in my female space end of

[@KeelanJon]

What a brilliant woman, I look forward to Helens future books and work. Thank you for this breath of fresh air in what sometimes feels like a world gone crazy, and I'm incredibly pleased to hear that for us here in the UK women are protected against this new age doctrine.

[@pinco40]

Thank you both for voicing some of my innermost thoughts. Among my group of politically left-leaning friends I cannot voice my opinions (which are very much aligned to yours) as I am straight accused of right wing thinking. It's very, very frustrating!

[@pamfan221]

I hate this SO much! It makes me think these people (I am surrounded by them in my company) are only paying lip service to caring about women.

[@topwomble]

Have you ever considered that they might be right? That said, a shame if they won't engage properly

[@ambientjohnny]

@@topwomble Such extreme black and white thinking cannot be right, it's ridiculous, and even more "funny" how it shows an utter and complete lack of perceiving any nuance at all, yet the people who engage in that type of behaviour frequently accuse others of failing to grasp nuance, such textbook projection.

[@fluffyfour]

I am in the same position. One person's opinions seem to rule the rest and I have been literally shut down by some just because they were worried I might disagree with that person. They all have multiple degrees and are more articulate than I (who only have a bachelor's) but seemingly discussion is only allowed if you agree with the group!

[@arrogant8295]

​@@topwombleThe problem is that those people never consider that THEY might be wrong

[@jordanbroom5955]

A few years ago, I started looking for a podcast from you, Dr. Dawkins. I'm glad to see you've entered entered the medium. I'm absolutely loving it so far.

[@noradc]

Thank you, Richard and Helen, for a laying out the reality of sex and the regressive madness of trans ideology with such clarity and conviction.

[@KianJ2003]

You’re not gonna be able to stop our community from having rights.

[@ltmt662]

@@KianJ2003 you're on the losing side buddy, this is just the beginning. Alienating women was the greatest mistake

[@KianJ2003]

@@ltmt662 you won’t come for our rights ✌🏻

[@ltmt662]

@@KianJ2003 the legislations are already changing. A minority without the support of the people you alienated has no power

[@KianJ2003]

@@ltmt662 you literally can’t come for our rights, you can’t come for trans folk, gay marriage, gay rights.. you can’t come for any of it

[@eleanam4835]

This podcast gives me so much hope 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@jossfan]

I am profoundly grateful to Helen Joyce for her stupendous writing, work and exposure of the danger of gender ideology for women, children, education, reality and truth. I'm also glad to see Richard Dawkins throw his hat in the ring. Helen is so right that this is a profoundly linguistic battle and that we all need to stand firm on insisting on the truth.

[@juanakhandjian7170]

You're both brilliant. Thank you for this refreshingly candid and REAL discussion.

[@lacm64]

Bingo, Helen Joyce, it’s for the benefit of men. 🎯 It’s the same old shit, different day.

[@priscillarampazzo4359]

I will definitely keep a close eye on Helen’s work.

[@ZotzPhasmo]

University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?!

[@CassiaChloe]

I'm an absolute leftist here. I 100% agree with you here. Feminist. Anti-stereotype.

[@michaelmelamed9103]

I’m also a leftist from birth but I was forced to write right handed 😂

[@KianJ2003]

Defeats the object of being a left winger 🙄

[@DDR99999]

​​@@KianJ2003 Did you tell that to people who voted for Biden, whose administration approved a multi-billion weapons deal with Saudi Arabia, a country which punishes lgbtq by death? I hope you don't consider such people left wing. Democrats are a right wing neoliberal party, no less, no more right wing than the Republicans, they agree on 99% of important issues.

[@rocoe9019]

​@@KianJ2003such a sad narrow minded view!

[@KianJ2003]

@@rocoe9019 nope.

[@amnesicturtles4145]

Content like this is really needed as of today. I study something art related in college and I'm fed up by most of my classmates because of the obsession of having to be LGTBQ(...) or else you are considered bad, boring or worse. There doesn't seem to be anymore consideration about the products of the mind, be it science or art, the only thing that seems to be important for this kind of people is your genre, sexuality and little more.

[@marthamydear5869]

Keep strong! ❤

[@thistles]

Dr. Dawkins, I have the utmost respect and admiration for you. Your books have been tremendously inspirational and influential in my life. Thank you for speaking with Helen. She’s the perfect person to help you recognize how your desire to be polite and kind is being used to subvert your rationality. A sincere belief does not always merit respect. You would never say that a su!cide bomber has “paid his dues” and merits some accommodation, despite the sincerity of the belief. Please continue to be brave and honest in the face of irrational zealotry.

[@hester234]

A suic1de bomber kills not only himself but also other people, not by accident but intentionally. Sincere trans people like Buck Angel or Blaire White not only *don't* harm other people, they actively try to speak up against this insanity and help gay kids. They try to prevent them from being medicalized. Whether you think sex/gender dysphoria is a real psychological disorder or not, this comparison is just ludicrous.

[@baconsarny-geddon8298]

@@hester234 (1) it's an analogy, simply illustrating ONLY the point that sincere (but false) belief, doesn't automatically deserve respect. There are COUNTLESS other ways the two groups AREN'T the same (as with ALL analogies...), but that doesn't matter; it's not the point of the analogy. >"OMG!!! How DARE you say that a person ran like a racehorse?!? Don't you know that horses are quadrupeds, with a tail and pointed ears, while people have TWO legs, no tail, and ears WITHOUT points?!? I can't believe you'd make such an OUTRAGEOUS comparison!!!" And (2) the "sincere trans people" you name are HATED by mainstream trans activists, because you've specifically chosen people who's beliefs DON'T represent the movement, despite Blair and Buck IDing as "trans". What's being critiqued here ISN'T "trans people"; it is the evidence-free ideology of "gender"; An ideology that dominates mainstream trans activists (not "trans PEOPLE", but "trans ACTIVISTS"- Very often """cis allies"""), and which BOTH Buck and Blair (and many other trans people) distance themselves from, by IDing as "tranSEXUALS", rather than "transGENDER. Buck and Blair may try to "live as the opposite sex", but both explicitly OPPOSE the evidence-free lie of "trans women ARE women", which is what's being criticized here. The people that Joyce and Dawkins (and presumably the OP) are criticizing, are THE SAME trans activists that Buck and Blair criticize. Virtually nobody (except trans activists, themselves) has major issue with "old school transexuals" like Buck and Blair- Certainly not "classical liberals" like Joyce and Dawkins... It's the 99.9% of trans activists who DON'T share Buck/Blair's opposition to child-mutilation, and to men in women's prisons and women's sports, who are the group being discussed...

[@thistles]

@@hester234 The purpose of the analogy was to make an extreme comparison to highlight the absurdity of the claim that sincerity of belief increases its legitimacy. That said, trans ideology absolutely harms people. It starts by harming the trans-identified people themselves. It reinforces their delusions and pushes them deeper into unhealthy ways of thinking and living. They suffer mentally and mutilate themselves physically. It harms their partners, parents, and children. There are parents who have been separated from their children, either by the government or by the trans-identified child. The spouses of transitioners are often deeply wounded, and the children are hurt and confused. Women are certainly being harmed by the erosion of our rights. Our sports and spaces are not safe. People have lost their careers over this. Everyone has been harmed by the inversion of reality, denial of science, and obliteration of truth. What makes Blaire and Buck any more "sincere" than other trans-identified people? They're the only true Scotsmen? And I think they do harm people. I think they present a slightly friendlier face to a harmful ideology and bring down people's guard. Blaire still invades women's spaces. Both perpetuate sexist stereotypes. Both are porn-sick. Both use wrong-sex pronouns. Not medicalizing kids is the absolute bare minimum. They're not heroes for not abusing children; they're just inches above the monsters who actively mutilate kids.

[@DieFlabbergast]

Helen Joyce does a very good job of keeping calm and holding back her anger, but you can tell the anger is there, and that it is strong, as it should be.

[@memoryhero]

This comment is my spirit animal.

[@anthonycaldwell3283]

This was the most insightful, succinct and well structured debate on this issue I have heard. Well done Prof. Dawkins and Dr. Joyce.

[@tapiir]

Hardly a debate when they agree on everything.

[@MegaGEZZZ]

This interview should be shown in schools.

[@ZotzPhasmo]

University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?! Why show an interview where someone is spewing misinformation, saying there is absolutely no evidence for something that has mountains of evidence

[@DomRoy-w7r]

Only when the kids are old enough to understand the context....

[@SuperChicken666]

Sadly, this interview would be considered blasphemy toward accepted doctrine; hatespeech that wiuld never be allowed anywhere near a typical school today.

[@jstefani247]

This is superb! Clarity in madness. Many thanks to Richard and Helen.

[@CCDR07]

Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums., surely Dawkins should be the first to admit this? What is the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive... With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.

[@lee-dowen]

Thank you, Richard Dawkin, for having the courage to speak out on this topic. Helen Joyce is awesome.

[@lsmith6036]

Yes we'll do e Dawkins and Joyce. Great stuff. Good interview. Good people. Good comment.

[@stefcep]

Helen, sure. Richard, not so much.

[@hangingaround2954]

This was an amazing discussion with two of my favourite intellectuals, thank you. I was a primary school teacher for almost twenty five years. I got out before this lunacy came my way, I’m afraid I could never have gone along with this madness, nor could I have tolerated the younger teachers talking to me as if I was a bigot.

[@steveb3881]

Good to see that push back against the nonsensical gender woo-woo is now well underway, thanks in large part to brave women like Helen. An excellent and much needed conversation.

[@tomdeitch2305]

I don't have a religion too but Dawkins is my prophet

[@TrishRyan-ey8go]

Hahahaha ❤😂🎉mine too especially after 16 years of Catholic school

[@georgeallen8781]

two amazing people, what an honour and privilege to be able to learn from them.

[@Claudi333]

This channel is very important nowadays, keep on keeping on!

[@shirfree]

I love that Dawkins is standing ground on this

[@antihebrew]

He didn't before.

[@geobloxmodels1186]

@@antihebrew I didn't either until I learned more about it. I thought it was all about bring accepting. The trans ideologists weaponized our innate decency against us.

[@raggamuffin2682]

Cuz he’s a white man and not Jewish like Harris or a black like Tyson.

[@connernickerson5509]

​@@antihebrewHe is now, get a grip.

[@lsmith6036]

​bill Maher supports the GC side, thankfully, and he is Jewish, and chapelle is black, he is a leading us pro jk Rowling view fellow

[@jjphoenix4055]

So rewarding listening the voice of common sense amongst all the craziness we're having in the world right now about genderism. I fully agree 100% with everything she said and I hope society would be able eventually realize how many crimes they've been commited in the name of progressism and diversity.

[@cockoffgewgle4993]

She's parroting "progressivism and diversity"-- just the type of 5 years ago. It's amusing how many women suddenly don't like it now that they're not the top victims anymore and many of their privileges are being threatened.

[@LoveYourself-my9nz]

Genderism is not progressive in any way it's actually regressive because it's based on sexism if you try to understand it. But there are some people out there who don't understand the difference between being progressive/ open minded or being stupid. And they are claiming it's progressive.

[@odd4824]

Lovely clear and well thought out dialog about an issue which usually is filled with shouting and irrational aggression. Thank you. Linguistic ideologue: powerful point of view. Looking forward to reading your book.

[@janegardener1662]

So wonderful to hear sane people discuss these issues. Thank you very much.

[@smaakjeks]

They are wrong about almost everything they say.

[@janegardener1662]

@@smaakjeks Such as?

[@smaakjeks]

@@janegardener1662 Gender and sex are not the same. Sex is not binary. Trans-people exist.

[@lolalaise4530]

Thank you! Both of you are incredibly intelligent and your voice is needed in pushing back against this delusional ideology.

[@samchandler2527]

I kinda feel the star quarter-back has come back for one last season. LOL! Dawkins the Tom Brady of evolutionary science steps back on the the field... Glad to see you back sir. As you can see we're in a bit a bind. Ms. Joyce the immovable, often humorous agent for the natural world... compelling as always. Great content! Thank you!

[@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs]

Well put 😊

[@antoinettejoubert]

This is very interesting and for me very upsetting because my whole life was spent trying to assert my rights as a woman! Now those rights and freedom are being taken away. I feel very helpless suddenly and tense! Thank you for this very engaging discussion. Lots if things I did not know or even think about!🇿🇦

[@charliecampbell5598]

Brilliant interview, I really respect Richard Dawkins and his ability to think critically about issues and even engage in the other side of the debate. Helen Joyce is also such a clear and articulate speaker, it is a breath of fresh air

[@CCDR07]

Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums., surely Dawkins should be the first to admit this? What is the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive... With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.

[@nicster0808]

Joy of Joys!!! I unexpectedly discovered this channel...didnt know about it...Thank you Prof Dawkins for keeping reality real!

[@leswallace2426]

Well done for taking this subject on, Helen J is excellent! Brilliant discussion that sadly would be impossible in many other situations.

[@kirkcrawford7533]

Helen is brilliant. Great conversation. Thank you for sharing.

[@qarl8176]

Her narrative seems to rely on sensationalism, especially with assertions like "they're sterilizing children." While such statements could easily incite public anxiety, they are not supported by the facts. In the vast majority of cases, hormone therapy doesn't begin until the patient is at least 16 years old and never before leaving childhood for puberty.

[@ambientjohnny]

@@qarl8176 Why should MALES be allowed access to SINGLE-SEX spaces reserved for FEMALES based on their "gender identity"? If sex and gender are separate, then a male announcing his "gender identity" is "trans woman" does nothing to change their sex, they are still MALE - so why should they be afforded rights reserved for the opposite SEX? The movement is regressively sexist, and misogynistic.

[@qarl8176]

@@ambientjohnny You've been harassing me repeatedly. I am not inclined to answer your questions. I wish you the best.

[@OldGreyMulletTest]

@@qarl8176 In law children become adults at the age of 18, so her statement was accurate (in as much as we have to have some standard to adhere to for clarity).

[@qarl8176]

@@OldGreyMulletTest LOL. I dare you to walk into a classroom of 16-year-olds and call them children. In the text of contracts, "child" means under 18. In all other contexts it does not. Helen is trying to create hysteria because it helps her book sales.