Transsexual x TERF | (Mianne x Holly) | The Ethics of Gender Transition

[@louisecarrigg9398]

It must be excruciating to feel so wrong. What I hate is when women are subject to being shut up in order to appease the aspirations of a male who has chosen to insert himself into a women's sport category. He has taken places from female players. He had no right. He wanted something and found a way to achieve that. Not a thought for any woman who's missed out because of him.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

I agree very much though it is feminists that really promoted cancel culture everywhere & the tactics used. The fourth wave intersectional feminists in particular . Looks to me like the sport thing has aspects of ignorance , political dividing to manipulate & control , some good old actual misogyny

[@lesleyfarrington4809]

He took up a woman's place on international tours for over a decade. He chose to do that. What is the difference between him and anyone else?

[@troutfisher7182]

I grew up in San Francisco in the 1970's -80's and it was a wonderful freeing time, because gender stereotypes were tossed out the window. We had that. We all wore what we wanted and lived how we wanted, and people accepted each other. Men in dresses women mechanics etc. This whole neo trans rhetoric is so disheartening, so oppressive, reinforcing the same stupid tired old gender stereotypes that have always been. Erasing gender stereotypes is not far fetched, there was a time not that long ago it existed.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

Mao tried that more forcefully ...didn't work. It's not oppressive it just exists like almost every human is heterosexual so is being "other' oppressive because they have been made so ( heterosexual )like stupid Queer theory , post modernists , social constructionists say ?

[@samnicolson1197]

Mianne mentioned finding out later that fellow golfers were told they couldn't object to their inclusion in the women's team. And that they would have wanted the women to talk to them about it. But Mianne could have asked the women how they felt, whether they thought it wasn't fair, or what restrictions might fairly apply to whether biological men could be on women's teams

[@soniaess28]

The price of entry, for men, into women's spaces and sports is not surgery and hormones. Men remain men.

[@adlernewman]

So, for bloody years, he had no shame to compete with women??? And you are striving to be polite? Please... this is surreal.

[@Deb_Downes]

I saw Mianne play the SA Women’s Amateur at my golf club. As a transsexual woman, Mianne’s game was comparative with the other female players.

[@adlernewman]

@@Deb_Downes Whatever. He's a man and should play with other men. I don't care what he wants to be called or what he wears or how he wants to present- none of these things change the fact he is a man. A biological male who went through a male puberty with all the advantages it gives. If he wants to play women, it just means he's a selfish, narcissistic cheat.

[@littlemy6340]

@@Deb_Downesso Mariane is a mediocre male golfer.

[@lisac1619]

​@@Deb_DownesHe should have played against the men since he is one.

[@jonahtwhale1779]

So sex equality is not needed if it might be bad for women? Why should it be allowable to exclude men from a field because women can not reach the same standard? Are we allowed to exclude women from a business because men may not be able to beat them 8n that field e.g. beauty pageant?

[@roxee57]

Is it the case that someone with this feeling of being “wrong” which causes a level of distress and has been called gender dysphoria has concluded the way to “right” the “wrong” is to try and become the only other choice that’s available. Why can’t we come up with another category like other cultures have, like the fa’a’fine, which will acknowledge the “wrong” and the distress it causes while acknowledging that fixing the “wrong” doesn’t mean the “right” solution is something which isn’t true. Our anti-discrimination laws could be written to protect people of this new category instead of the protection currently offered, which is to allow people to say they are a thing they are not, and to allow them to deceive people, and to to punish people if they don’t accept the are what they are not. I’ve seen a lot of “transexuals” punching back against what the activists are doing. Maybe they should get together and come up with a new name for themselves and I’m quite sure women fighting to preserve our language & spaces and to protect kids will down arms and support them.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

That's a very different culture & they really are thought of as gay in our understanding. Sexual invert theory would work better in practice and help to clean up the LGB from certain predatory behaviors of one type in the group.

[@sharifsalem]

She? Sorry, if you’re planning on being polite you can just avoid sexed language for such guests on your podcast. And in the description you are calling him a “transexual woman”????? Please.

[@Deb_Downes]

One wonders whether you bothered to listen 🥴

[@lisac1619]

​@@Deb_DownesHard to listen when it starts off with lies.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

So Trigggeeerrred Its a medical term that is more accurate than trans women generally especially now . Did you know most cultures do not consider adult human females women unless they are mothers ? 😉

[@Jenny-nz8fb]

How can this person present a rational voice while competing in women’s sports?

[@hollylawford-smith]

she is an ex- pro golfer. note the 'ex' part.

[@paintitblack6728]

@@hollylawford-smith HE is. He still has DNA of a male, remember humans CANNOT change their sex, the constant lying of using female pronouns, is called gaslighting. Please don't start gaslighting me, a Lesbian.

[@dakotamadeleinel.1973]

@@paintitblack6728 "Lesbian" capitalized suggests to me that you're a Mary Daly style faker

[@carolynbrightfield8911]

It's like these people think nobody else expeeriences inner turmoil in their life. And nobody else but them experiences frustration because their bodies don't allow them to do what they really wanted to do in life. Well, guess what trans people. EVERYBODY struggles. EVERYBODY I have ever listened to in life struggles. Every single person has an inner life which we deal with. Get over it. Deal with it. You'll be dealing with inner turmoil till the day you die. Trust me, I'm 70, and I've been to the death wall twice. You are born alone, you will die alone, and in between, you live in your body alone. Oh, btw, Ieanted to be a concert pianist, but my tiny adult hands stretch six notes on the piano. If you are transexual, when you grow up you won't be able to compete in women's sports because you are transexual, you are not a woman. Just like I can't be a concert pianist because my body with my tiny hands won't allow it. These male people are self-centred men "on steroids" as the metaphorical saying goes. The ultimate man, gives nothing to women, it's all "me, me, me". And as he says "you can't change sex" then compete in men's golf. Oh, that's right, you wanted to appear better at golf than you really are. Guess what ? There'll be plenty of MEN who are not as good at gold as you. Professional golfer? Oh, so playing as a so-called woman gave you a competitive advantage, that's why you did it. That's vcalled CHEATING. Oh, btw, I stand at 160cm tall, netball anyone?

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

Yes being short ect is annoying . The world is made for tall right handed males it seems , one of my friends married a very tall guy to level up her children .

[@nastja33]

Thank you for speaking up Mianne. However i think it would make a world of difference if you could apologise to women for having competed in women's golf all those years. Do you feel any remorse for that? Holly, you could've pressed him more about his use of women's change rooms. He very quickly and noticeably changed the subject. And again, does he feel any remorse for using women's spaces? I was disappointed there was no discussion of autogynephilia. Mianne's confusion at ~20yo as to whether he was gay or not made me think perhaps he has autogynephilia. If so, the number one thing you could do to help end this nonsense is state loudly and clearly that your gender dysphoria arose from having autogynephilia and that's true for the vast majority of trans "women". If you're a homosexual transsexual, it would still be helpful for you to say "i am this thing. AGPs are another thing". I'm glad you've reached the point of recognising that the line in the sand is simply no to all males. I hope you'll keep speaking up, despite the harsh comments. I've always thought it's important for sane transsexuals to speak up. It's so helpful for the gender critical side, so thanks again.

[@hollylawford-smith]

she actually said a bit more about changing rooms but i edited it out for reasons that i can't now recall. from memory it was that she was encouraged to use them by other women but had reservations about it. she also said clearly in the interview that she desired to be a woman *with a man*, which indicates a gay sexual orientation relative to sex, and therefore not a candidate for AGP. thanks for watching!

[@honberg193]

Many more Earlyonet/same sex attracted are now speaking up. Not wanting to be associated with the very sexual and not romantic more autosexual form of AGP. Remember as well that HSTS largely aren't part of trans, or lgbt+++. Just blending in. Could be your bestie, or neighbour. They are not going to be willing to out themselves.

[@honberg193]

​@@hollylawford-smithMariane seems a well balanced and cares about women, but she doesn't come across as having a female typical gender expression. Could be pseudo bisexual. If that is the case. They are a very different animal to your typical AGP. It's an almost total inversion. As an HSTS and very well informed on the science. This type pose no threat to women. As the development of AGP started at the same time as their sexual orientation. Probably around aged 9 , or 10. They perceive their orientation as a genuine attraction to men. It is only affirmation, but it replaces any innate attraction to women.

[@nastja33]

@@hollylawford-smith it's not uncommon for AGPs to fantasise about and sometimes pursue sex with men. The fantasy is about having a vagina and being penetrated - that is where the focus is rather than actual sexual attraction to the man. The man is just a faceless prop. So i'm still not convinced.

[@littlemy6340]

@@honberg193 on this I agree with you. At no point did Mianne say he was a feminine gay boy. Everything about him, and much of what he said, including his focus on what women said and thought about him - says autogynephile.

[@emmagoodwill4535]

As a visually impaired person I would love to be able to see. Its nit possible. I dont claim i should be able to drive a car.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

Poor comparison but you are entitled to straw man

[@paintitblack6728]

@@non_ideological_transexual7414 Oh Look a troll in the comments and just like a boil, needs lansing

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

@@paintitblack6728 I am being quite sincere unlike you , of which there are multitudes similar to you on Twitter . Never address ...just slash at or try to discredit somehow or have an original thing to say when you do not approve 🤣

[@Deb_Downes]

Thanks Holly and Mianne. I saw Mianne play the SA Women’s Amateur at my golf club, and yes, there was a fair amount of conversation amongst the female spectators - not admiring but, not derogatory either. These conversations are important, and I’d like to thank Mianne for participating in such an open and honest way :)

[@apab9700]

I really appreciate the openness and exploration in this discussion. Thanks to you both.

[@soniaess28]

1:16:18 you, sir, are the man barging into women's sport and spaces. YOU are trampling women's rights.

[@ratdog6317]

exactly lmao he talks about decency and respect when he had absolutely none for women's sports

[@soniaess28]

1:14:00 the talk of distress is disingenuous. It's men's distress that people seek to alleviate.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

And ROGD girls, young women of which their are thousands more than any other cohort ? . You really are self-righteous 👏👏

[@soniaess28]

@@non_ideological_transexual7414 yes, these young women and girls are shields for pornsick men. Men like you.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

@@soniaess28 Such a sexist reflex response , maybe read more widely. BTW you ignored the point of my post 🤡

[@vekkstar]

@@soniaess28 Just curious - how is it connected to porn? Many transsexuals I've met, admittedly early transitioners, originally "feminine' boys (I don't believe in these ideas personally), do not have a sense of their identities as linked to porn. Indeed, several have no libido.How is a transsexual pornsick?

[@sherrietaha8377]

Sometimes the answer is "NO" is always difficult to integrate, accept, and move on (meaning with ones life). Knowing that you're okay, meaning self acceptance, is the tricky key. Great conversation! Keep seeding compassion! Thanks!

[@Jenny-nz8fb]

When the IOC changed the rules it meant more men could compete in women’s sports and that wouldn’t be fair for this person.

[@soniaess28]

I think he's a liar. He bulldozed over women to get what he wants and do what he wants.

[@h6hfelie]

'Gender distress'... What we're seeing is men not wanting to be men (for a myriad of reasons), and they become fixated on the idea that they 'feel like women', because woman is the only other possible option in their mind (there is no third sex). Then there are the AGPs, who are quite obviously fueled by their fetishisation of the female body, female expectations, female stereotypes, male depictions of female sexuality, and femininity in general. Though tbh, there is an element of fetishisation and dehumanisation in all male motives for transitioning, whether the male transitioner is heterosexual or homosexual, because you cannot boil womanhood down to a feeling without dehumanising women in the process.

[@soniaess28]

35:30 no. No, Mr Bagger. No men in women's sports.

[@vekkstar]

It's interesting, Holly, as even Renée Richards changed point-of-view on the matter of trans women in competitive sports, particularly given for those who transition already having developed through male puberty (Richards concedes now the advantage).

[@rosarose4016]

Great conversation. Thanks to you both!

[@cgpcgp3239]

I’ve heard of men getting legs extended. It’s really rare. Not to become a become 6 ft but a a few inches.

[@jasminesussex6089]

Amazing score. Good on Miana for having the conversation. Great Friday night viewing.

[@rmccymru6375]

Very balanced & open discussion creating new understanding on both sides of the "opposing positions".

[@honberg193]

People don't understand the Somoan, or even ladyboys. These are just other cultures' societal ways of expressing homosexuality. Very very few of them are what we call medically transsexual of either type. The political egalitarian gay and lesbian culture of the west would highly resist this approach. In Western gay male society particularly like goes with like. Feminine homosexuals are at the very bottom of the pecking order, the other aspect is only a very small amount of homosexuality results in transsexualism. I.e gender dysphoria past puberty.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

Friends of Rod i assume 🤭

[@honberg193]

​@@non_ideological_transexual7414 You don't mean that Gay Pedo that British guy has exposed do you?

[@soniaess28]

56:30 you do not live in stealth. Women look at men and know they are men.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

Must make you feel better to think you always know 🤷

[@soniaess28]

@@non_ideological_transexual7414 virtually all adult's sex is discernible at a glance.

[@non_ideological_transexual7414]

@@soniaess28 Yes i could not agree more but as you said virtually , not all. Last year i met with a number of transsexuals which was odd because where i live i only see "trans women" like the news, we were all in a room plotting to take over the western world then realized that feminists had already done that & were being used by the one percenters 😂

[@vekkstar]

Some trans individuals do and no-one really knows. Not all, of course. But how can one necessarily ''know"?

[@soniaess28]

@@vekkstar infants know the difference between men and women. And, even if people can fool others, that doesn't mean they should.

[@priceless2423]

You wrote a whole book on being gender critical Holly, a great book I may add, so I thought you were gender critical. More fool me.

[@hollylawford-smith]

what's the accusation here, that no one gender-critical would speak to a trans person? that no one gender-critical would ever use pronouns in a way that doesn't track sex? something else?

[@sueclarke6298]

I am gender critical but I have a trans friend. This is the slippery slope when you discard people like Mianne, Mianne is a great advocate to the gender critical movement. I do not use gendered pronouns for people I believe are hiding under the umbrella of trans...the 112 genders is bullshit...I will not used gendered pronouns. But when I respect someone like Mianne I will, I still have an understanding that Mianne is a man living as a woman as does Mianne. We need to remember that there are transexuals out there that are hurting just as much from these TIQA+ nuts, they are also victims in this.

[@priceless2423]

I don't understand why he lobbied to play in women's sports if he knows himself to still be a man. To me that reeks of entitlement. Do we know how many prizes he took from women? Has he apologised? Of course not. The use of gendered pronouns just gives him exactly what he wants, and if entitled men are happy, you're doing feminism wrong.

[@hollylawford-smith]

@@priceless2423 obviously her views have changed over time. which you would know if you watched the video.

[@priceless2423]

Funny how his views have changed once he retired.

[@cgpcgp3239]

I like listening to Holly working through her positions. A teen in my high school had a nose like a large beak. She was bullied because of it. She had a nose job. It changed her looks, stopped the bullying, and boosted her confidence. Her nose functioned perfectly. It was a social and emotion distress that was relieved by surgery.

[@soniaess28]

Thank you for your work, Holly xxx

[@soniaess28]

Mianne IS the bearded man in lipstick.

[@lewreed1871]

This was great. Thanks.

[@honberg193]

Ethics of transition. Much of the actual facts and science is purposely hiden by activists on both sides. Trans isn't one thing. Earlyonset who don't desist around puberty presented as adults historicaly. Always attracted to the same sex. If you have someone who is female typical, avoident of there bits. Gender dysphoria in our case " crossex identified " needing a opposite partner who will appreciate their qualities. Usually small, short , thin boned an facialy unmasculine even before transition. See girls and women as their group, more like them psychologicaly. To fit in this is why they transition. Then disapear if they can. As far as womens spaces. Given all of the above, and full medical transition. These are the most approprate to use. As far as sports is concerned. We wouldn't wish to enter sports. We align ourselves with much of womens concerns regarding AGP males in sport. We aren't the enemy. Nature made us dysphoric in the first place.

[@littlemy6340]

It’s not up to men/males to decide which women’s spaces they should be permitted to use and under what conditions.

[@honberg193]

@@littlemy6340 Interesting language! Men are human males who live socialy, hormonaly, and sexualy as Men. I'm male in the context of my androgen insensitivity syndrome, which contributed to my transsexuality. Whilst I recognise biology. I also recognise mainsteam science around sexuality and brain sex shifting. True it isn't my decision which spaces I'm legaly and moraly allowed to use. Neither is it a few women, who can make that decision either. It is for women and law makers to decide that. For 25 of 30 years I've had the same rights as women. Feminism was the mother of trans ideology. An ideology created by the AGPs on the erotic side of that spectrum. Well after I choose to follow my nature for the best fit in life, and the men I'm attracted to. The majority of women, and men in my life perceive me as female. I tell those that need to know my medical history. Most women have no problem with transsexuals like myself in womens space. It would be inapropriate, not to mention put me in danger if I were to use a mens bathroom on a night out with my women friends. I live in the real world. Many women over the years have said how uncomfortable they feel around butch lesbians in womens spaces. Without nouence and working together. Trans ideology will not be defeated. Historicaly most AGPs have led quiet lives not bothering anyone. This has changed of recent years, with what is best decribed as heterosexual transvestites coming out of the shadows and into the daylight. Adopting trans, and adopting marxisim. The same marxisism that spawned modern feminist social constructionists ideology. If in the future I am legaly expected to use the same toilet as my partner. The far right are also now pushing that lesbians and gay men should use a third space, quoting safety and decency. Disrupting the contract we have had with biological females, can have unintended consequences. I for one will not be putting my safety and my dignity, and the dignity of my female friends at risk. The ball is in the court of gender critical people. Work with the unwoke, or an uncertain future for us all.

[@lisac1619]

No women only spaces are appropriate for men to use. What exactly is "full transition"? No man can become a woman.

[@honberg193]

@@lisac1619 Don" gas light I'm not a TRA. You understand exactly what I mean in the context of sexology dating back to Cauldwell in 1949, Blanchard.

[@littlemy6340]

@@honberg193 there never was any “contract” between men like yourself and women. We have never been asked and we never agreed to your presence. Now it’s time for all of you to get out.

[@jonahtwhale1779]

Man, woman or Eunuch!