Trek Wars : How to win the battle of Wolf 359

[@LoreReloaded]

Hey Guys, So this isn't what I would consider my best work - but I tried to work with what I had. Either way, hope you enjoy. If you want a chance to help choose the content I produce - be sure to come back to the channel and go to the community tab on Saturdays!

[@vic5015]

Lore Reloaded quick question. We know canonically that Earth, Mars, and probably Luna were HEAVILY populated at this time. Even with transporters and multiple starships, how do you propose to evacuate BILLIONS of individuals in such a short time WITHOUT tying up vital ships and other resources?

[@LoreReloaded]

+Justin Shim I don't.. They would get who they can..but it would admittedly be a drop in the bucket.

[@RHawkins6]

I like the Spacedock idea i think that would have done some damage, I don't agree with the phasing cloak or quantum torpedoes. In Best of Both Worlds we know Star Fleet had known about the Borg for almost 2 years that for most of that time they had effectively sat on their hands thinking the Borg would not be a threat for signifigantly longer than 2 years. Commander Shelby was the first to convince them to commit to this fight but she only had 6 months and none of the new weapons they have designed were off the drawing board by the time Wolf 359 happened. Only a few people knew about Admiral Pressman working on the phasing cloak and with the fate of the prototype on the Phoenix still unknown and its highly illegal state I think they would have hestitated too much and not had time to produce another working model in time. The key impression the episode gives of the battle was it was improvised, which is why the Spacedock overload fits in nicely. Sorry if this sounds a bit rambling.

[@corsairraven973]

an interesting tactic, i think it could work, but we would lose picard. :( but the battle would be won. Well, until the next time the borg arrive.

[@vichodeivis1219]

For an episode is good, but as a tactic it has too many moving parts. And implies that the federation truly understood how outmatched they were in a conventional fight.

[@moguldamongrel3054]

Slam a romulan warbird into the cube and let the singularity drive do its job. Check mate.

[@Mister_Mag00]

perfect

[@lucifiaofthefreecouncil1312]

the singularities the romulans use aren't exactly what your thinking. they aren't stellar mass black holes the super extreme gravity they produce has a very very very short range we are talking an inch maybe less. Singularities can be created with any amount of mass even that of a grain of sand it just has to be compressed into a small enough volume for it to collapse space-time into a singularity but something of that mass would only create a singularity for a trillion trillionths of a second before it would evaporate.

[@nathanparry8315]

@@lucifiaofthefreecouncil1312 its needs to compressed beyond it's schwarzchild radius. Another alternative is creating a kugelblitz, compressing radiation and light into a such a dense state it creates a black hole. The idea is theoretically possible under current understanding of relativity.

[@moguldamongrel3054]

@@lucifiaofthefreecouncil1312 ty for ruining my idea :*(

[@ThePoshboy1]

@@lucifiaofthefreecouncil1312 Singularities also do not exist (or are doubtful) in real life so it's hard to say.

[@PerpetualGM]

Your plan could work, but it would never be implemented. Wolf 359 was the "hubris moment" for the UFP. They had managed to essentially subdue and ally with the Klingons, force peace with the Cardassians and hem in the Romulans. The pre-359 UFP had essentially defeated all comers, economically, politically and/or militarily and had no reason to expect that this new threat would be any different. I have little doubt that virtually everyone at Wolf 359 thought the battle was a foregone conclusion. Sure, they'd lose some ships and take losses, but victory was inevitable in their mind. I mean, what single force could resist 40 FEDERATION STARSHIPS and (maybe) some Klingon allies? That the battle would end with an undamaged cube and all but one (?) of those ships utterly destroyed was inconceivable to the UFP leadership. Of course, that is just my opinion and great work on the video!

[@90lancaster]

Pretty Stupid - as it's not like they'd have much more luck if they'd made the 1st Federation angry at them either.

[@PerpetualGM]

The UFP's biggest strength is converting enemies (even potential ones) into friends. They just needed Starfleet to hold the enemy off long enough for diplomacy to work. Sure, there were a few existential threats to Earth and/or the Federation (V'Ger, Whale Probe, etc), as well as the numerous god-like races (Metrons, Organians, etc) and the more powerful races (possibly the First Federation, Kelvins, etc). Those had either been appeased, neutralized or were impressed enough with us to stay on their side of the fence. Diplomacy doesn't really work on the Wolf 359 Borg. They simply want to consume the UFP (and the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc) to further fuel their advance towards "perfection".

[@mikedillon4389]

that I think comes from the fact they can do things like, muster an armada of 40 warships on two days notice. There is a reason why no body except the cardiassians were stupid enough to go to war with them.

[@benthompson2136]

"The UFP's biggest strength is converting enemies (even potential ones) into friends. " What a coincidence! We could say the same about the Borg!

[@iconbearer]

Lol. I like your point :)

[@FancyGeeks]

If everyone gets assimilated then technically, they're on the winning side.

[@ancientflames6679]

#Technicalities hahaha

[@Omega0850]

Basic italian war-strategy!

[@simpsonfan13]

[Taps head]

[@jacobw446]

Omega0850.. thought that was French Strategy... you know, french rifle, never fired and only has scrapes on it from dropping.

[@simpsonfan13]

Italy switched sides in WW1 and 2. That's the reference.

[@DocWolph]

Fusion power is used because it lasts almost FOREVER. A couple of tons of fuel and the fusion reactors will produce more than enough power for the station to last millennia. Stations do not need the huge punch of a Matter Annihilation Reactor (no warp drive) and can do just fine with a synthetic star at its heart.

[@LoreReloaded]

+DocWolph ok

[@saquist]

Antimatter produces more usuable power than any nuclear power. And if Star Trek has a way of harnessing the neutrinos which carry away a tremendous amount of energy in an anti matter explosion (20-80%) then Anti matter would be hugely more efficient.

[@DocWolph]

Saquist, Matter annihilation is already 96-98% efficient. Star Trek never makes it clear how they gather the energy up only that it is channeled through dilithium crystals. Neutrinos are just technobabble as what they are and what they do in a Matter Annihilation Reaction (MAR) is never clear or consistent, in Star Trek, and so is NOT considered. If anything Neutrinos are used like a measurement of what's going on in the reactor. Again MARs have the punch a starship needs to go to warp on top of everything else they do. But stations do not have warp and so do not need a MAR. Fusion produces more than enough power for their needs. Also a MAR burns equal parts matter and anti-matter in order to produce their power. A Starship can only carry so fuel much and that is why they do not seem as efficient. But a MAR is almost perfect. It is almost a dead end. The Romulan Forced Singularity, or what we would call a "kugelblitz",is actually a better choice as those last for decades, centuries, or millennia (Millennia might be too massive). But they do require a mature and very ambitious space infrastructure to produce. One of the most irksome things about Star Trek is that they do not show much of the space infrastructure that allows for life and living in space, and in case of the Romulans just how crazy advanced they really are. Okay. No. I am aware that the FS is "unstable". Bump it hard enough and it collapses into a black hole and consumes the ship and anything with a few light seconds of it. This is technobabble itself as a kugelblitz is only unstable at the end of its life. There is no reason to assume the Romulans would do this in anyway that is unnecessarily dangerous to themselves. And if the kugelblitz is made with light, it can be replenished fairly easily.

[@QarthCEO]

A station wouldn't need the power of a Matter-Antimatter Reactor because stations don't need to warp space like a Starship's Warp Engine does. Even on Starships, fusion reactors are used to power the impulse engines. Fusion reactors will produce more than enough power for non-warp systems, are easier to build, easier to maintain, last forever, and are generally safer.

[@saquist]

DockWolph, Ah No...I was speaking of a REAL Anti-matter/matter reaction. A great deal of energy in the annihilation is carried away in the form of neutrinos which are extremely weakling interacting particles. The Average Nuclear power plant produces 500 megawatts The Large Nuclear power plant produces. 3,937 megawatts -A Fusion Reactor could generate 1,500 mega watts -One kg of matter and 1kg of antimatter (Hydrogen) would produce: 179, Quadrillion watts minus 50% energy carried away by neutrinos: (89 Quadrillion watts. On Impulse a Starship is throwing it's fuel out the airlock, by comparison. (Two U.S Quarters of Antimatter and matter is enough to launch the Space Shuttle into space.

[@setojurai]

I love the idea of using an Oberth and Connie as fire ships with the phase cloaks. Hell, Oberth's explode randomly anyways, MIGHT AS WELL, RIGHT?!

[@LoreReloaded]

My thoughts exactly!

[@saalkz.a.9715]

My guess is that the Oberths were used as ramming ships! You know "...RAMMING SPEEEEEED..."💣💥

[@KertaDrake]

Just set every Oberth in the federation at them one by one. Don't bother with crew or strategy. Let them fly in one at a time and just explode at a completely safe range for the cube staggered by about a minute between each explosion until the Borg just say "What is going on with these ships? Do we even WANT that in the collective?"

[@scpguy1381]

@@LoreReloaded I just don’t know if the Federation could pull the tech out, get a Engineer proficient in it, put on a complétant new system and also it’s unlikely many in star fleet knew about it

[@FLAME4564]

@@saalkz.a.9715 i got 1 word for any fool in tng starfleet that would send an oberth into the battle or wolf 359. Suicidal!

[@donfelipe7510]

Small problem with your plan. The Borg are indeed aware of the Klingons, Locutus wakes up in sickbay in Best of Both Worlds Part II and says "Worf, Klingon Species, you too will be assimilated." While their knowledge may only come from Picard, Picard is quite aware of Klingon cloaking devices and disruptor pattern weapons, also the Borg had already attacked and presumably assimilated Romulan outposts in the Neutral Zone and might have gained additional knowledge on both disruptors, cloaking devices and the Klingons generally from this source.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Don Felipe He may be aware of its existence but I find it dubious he would know the intricacies or have engineer level knowledge

[@donfelipe7510]

I don't know, Picard is pretty well versed in Klingon stuff, he can speak Klingon and seems to know stuff about how the government works as demonstrated during the Klingon civil war that put Gowron in power.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Don Felipe We would agree that politics and an undepth technical break down of an advanced technology not used by the federation are two different things though yea?

[@donfelipe7510]

True I see what you're saying but Picard is not a statesman he's a starship captain and probably has knowledge of anything that would pose a threat to his ship is my point, including alien weapon systems. Even soldiers in today's armies will be briefed on what the enemy has and in some cases special forces will be competent enough to use captured enemy weapons. Highly trained starfleet personnel with years of experience like Picard will know a thing or two about alien ships I'm sure of it.

[@stephenmpeters]

Picard is a manager though. He would know some high level details that would be useful to the Borg, but not the low level details that the Borg would have of the Federation ships. Think about it like this: What would an American Escort Carrier Captain know about the British carriers in the Atlantic? They would know some things like "Their flight decks are armored, so they don't carry as many planes but they're more protected in combat", but probably not things like "If a Spitfire does a negative G-roll, the carburetor will flood and the engine will cut out"

[@riverbank7971]

The botg started off being seriously strong in TNG, becoming laughably weak by Voyager onwards. Borg got hit by the nerf hammer hard.

[@LoreReloaded]

+River Bank Agreed

[@Beyondthe5thPanel]

River Bank whilst I sort of agree, the reason is because Like the Borg, the Federation adapted as quickly as they could, and as such Picard had tons of first hand knowledge and experience, knowing what to do and how to counter adapt the the Borg’s techniques. Also Janeway and the crew had ample time to prepare, knowing full well that they’d be encountering the Borg, being that they were now in the Delta Quadrant and this was where they came from. And then the Borg got a bit too ambitious for their own good by trying to assimilate subspace and Species 8472 whooped them big time for it. Had the Borg been successful in their attempts to assimilate the Federation and later Voyager, my theory is that they’d use the vast scientific and committed strength the human race tends to have, and make Locutus, Data, Janeway and the assimilated Dr., as well as several other assimilated Starfleet doctors and scientists to come up with the same biogenic weapons that Voyager came up with. The Borg would essentially use the human tenacity and passion as a tool, while at the same time keeping it under control. But because the Borg were unsuccessful in assimilating all of Earth and the Federation, combined with their failure of 8472, this is why Janeway was able to gain the upper hand. She knew the risks going in and like the Queen, played everything like pawns in 3D chess. Each time being a stalemate. Which in a way makes me think of Data playing that game against the one alien ambassador, or whatever his name was. He purposely played it to match move for move, with no intentions of winning, instead getting him to forfeit. Janeway caused the Queen to forfeit each battle they faced off. Save for future Admiral Janeway killing the Queen

[@chrisbingley]

Part of that is due to the fact that the Intrepid class was designed to fight the Borg. Part of it is down to bad writing. After the show started with Voyager being stuck in the same quadrant as the Borg, the show writers soon realised that it would be a very short series. So they created a bunch of plot holes, and maguffins so that Voyager could get home and the show could have a hppy ending. If they'ds thought ahead, they could have stranded Voyager in the Gamma Quadrant and had them fight the Dominion instead. Which would also have tied into the DS9 story. We could even have had them trying to get to the Bajoran wormhole rather than heading straight for earth.

[@teneleven2818]

Chris Bingley your idea would have made more sense and probably more entertaining if done right. Voyager should have made it home first before the series ended to show how the characters would deal with their lie when they got home

[@InfernosReaper]

@@chrisbingley Weird, could've sworn it was the Defiant that was made to fight the Borg...

[@charlestimmins7729]

I feel the battle of wolf 359 was a needed wake up call for the federation. The federation was getting comfortable and allowing families to live on starships compared to the days of kirk(TOS). I watched a review about how the federation was getting comfortable as in no new threats and it made alot sense.

[@rubix4195]

Without 359, the Dominion would have rinsed the Federation. It's been stated already but their ships of line were international diplomatic cafe's then ships prepped for a space battle; most designs were old science exploration vessels and, as another guy mentioned, the Feds were thinking that their "rules" would protect them as they weren't the aggressors (Gen Order 2), they didn't talk to people who were a threat (Prime Directive) and they only fought people with people they already knew (Gen Order 8). Q and the Borg reminded the Feds that, in space, not everyone plays by rules, they only respect force.

[@Thermool]

Weren’t Quantum Torpedoes created after Wolf 359? I don’t think it would be likely they’d have any prototype last either since peace was on the minds of Starfleet not war

[@LoreReloaded]

you would be correct

[@bsmnt23]

It always the next cube you have to worry about. The one who is now aware of the last clever trick you pulled to defeat the last one. The Borg don't care too much about an individual cube. The next one will do the trick. Or the one after that.

[@LoreReloaded]

Oh yea, this is an all in.. You can't do this twice..

[@dreamingflurry2729]

Till you get anti-borg weapons from (future) Admiral Janeway :) (I bet they downloaded the full datacore of the shuttle she came on, so the "armor" (just a new generation of shield that seems - looks wise - partly holographic (or it really changes the hull!)) and transphasic-torps are just the tip of the iceberg! Seriously, cloaking tech, better warp-drive (possibly quantum-slipstream that is actually working long term!) etc. etc.) Or the Infinite-Modulator from Star Trek: Elite Force :) (make that a secondary ship-weapon and you have a borg-killer ready to use and it can also damage other ships!)

[@isaackellogg3493]

The Romulans already have the ultimate anti-borg weapon. It's nust really expensive. Use warbirds and D'Deridex to keep them close in on a sun--then use a trilithium missile to wipe out the cube with the sun. If the missile is cloaked, the cube may not spot in the confusion of the battle, and may well die without getting a message off. The hard part is keeping the cube around long enough for the shock wave to hit it, and not have it go to warp. Do they have warp interdictors in star trek?

[@thegameslibrarian5264]

I would have used mothballed ships as battering rams on remote control set to explode as soon as they hit the cube

[@LoreReloaded]

that's a really good idea

[@voss0749]

A fully fueled mothball ship is just a glass bottle of antimatter like a big ole Molotov cocktail. If the borg shields are down that cube will be in pieces.

[@lolroflroflcakes]

Don't even need them to explode just have them going really fast when they hit. I'm honestly surprised they only considered this once actual people had died, I feel like a peaceful civilization would think along the lines of, "how can we stop this without people getting hurt."

[@KertaDrake]

Commander of Spacedock: RAMMING SPEED! Crew: *Incredulous stares*

[@233Deadman]

OR And hear me out this is what the Oberth class was really designed for, given their habit of exploding.

[@stainlesssteelfox1]

One problem with the retreating picket lines. The Borg Cube is faster.

[@LoreReloaded]

+stainlesssteelfox1 It doesn't necessarily move at full warp..like we see in best of both worlds and in first contact

[@JeanLucCaptain]

Exactly, hence using multiple lines. So the other ships can catch up.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

That's the point multiple lines

[@Cadollan]

Speed is critical to the whole tactic of the Borg. Based on Gene Roddenberry, Star Fleet is building enough ships to cover there entire area with patrol and exploration vessels. The amount of ships available on short notice to fight the Borg would be limited to what is in range within a few days notice. If the Borg take their time, the Federation would have been able to mass so many ships, that even with all their technology, a single Borg cube would loose. Going by numbering system, and discounting the possibility of large gaps in the numbering (which may or may not be logical; the numbers may have some system based on ship class and/or generation, shipyard, or Federation appropriations bill), there could very well be over 70,000 ships still in service, numbering from the extremely-old but probably oft-overhauled Repulse (NCC-2544) and Stargazer (officially still in service but mothballed; NCC-2893), up to the USS Bellerophon at NCC-74705. This is rationalized by considering the size of Federation space; it is stated to encompass an area of 8,000 cubic light years. Travelling between Earth and DS9 is about a month's trip at maximum warp. Getting to Amargosa or Veridian from Earth is several times that distance, would require crossing Klingon space according to at least one map, and would thus likely take a period of months or years at "cruising speeds" (Warp 6-7). To be able to respond quickly at any corner of Federation space with a sizable fleet, you'd need a LOT of ships. Source: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/9566/roughly-how-many-starships-are-in-starfleet

[@Jack29151]

it's called a delaying action, the borg would be driven by programming to drop out of warp and attack, try to assimilate, which is why I'd have all those ships running on automated systems, no crew to assimilate, don't give them any drones. and each engagement would be a fight to the death. it's using a form of guerilla warfare.

[@enderman_of_d00m24]

I find the Borg to be the most intimidating and actually scary villians in Star Trek. They represent our relationship with technology taken to the Nth degree, which is what makes them scary.

[@oldworldobserver]

Awesome video. Only problem i see is how to get a Klingon fleet o earth in time? Qo’noS is over 90 light years away which would take months at warp 8

[@gortmundy01]

So Picard/Locutus analyses your ship movements and deduces that it would be advantageous to draw your forces into battle and destroy them before they are ready. In order to do so he diverts to Drylax, Alpha Centauri and Babel (just looking at your map) and exterminates/assimilates everything there. The Feds, being good guys and desperate to avoid mass civilian casualties are forced into a fleet action at one of those places and are annihilated.

[@jonathanschubert9052]

In any case, I don't think anyone would buy off on having first engagement be that close to any species home-world.

[@vrenak]

Quantum torpedoes are not yet available at the time, Commander Shelby said the new weapons (QTs) were projected to be available in 24 months from, when Geordi said he didn't believe they could be ready in less than 18 months.

[@LoreReloaded]

yup, that was a mistake on my side.

[@cropathfinder]

The evacuation of civilians in such a short amount of time is simply infeasible on this sort of scale and would be a waste of precious assets. The teleportation strategy seems like the way to and i am certain that there are more powerful things the feds could employ using that technique especially if they coordinated with the klingons i am sure you would find more then a few of them willing to be beamed aboard with explosives strapped to them so they would spread around causing havoc and looking for places to set some of those explosive or just go full on "its a good day to die"

[@LoreReloaded]

Yea, I am not saying they would get even a fraction of a percentage away. you'd take whom you could

[@cropathfinder]

yeah that sounds about right wish you did clarify that in the video thought it seems a bit overly idealistic when you don't mention that specifically

[@seanholland6132]

That scenario is Sisko level brutal and I love it. I subscribed today and am currently binge watching all your videos and love your work.

[@LoreReloaded]

glad you enjoy ;)

[@resolutegerm]

Quantem torpedoes we're not developed at the time and the phase cloak tech was lost with the Pegasus.

[@alexwilkin]

resolute germ I would assume there would have been all of research documents for the cloak saved somewhere, it would be stupid too only store them on one vessel, when they could back them up at an Sol based computer

[@999benhonda]

say what? The enterprise used the phase cloak to get out of the asteroid! Now, you could assume that since the romulans were made aware of the tech that it was destroyed or sealed away in some deep, dark hole...but it was not lost with the Pegasus.

[@BusoRockin1000]

I forgot. That was a season 7 episode wasn't it?

[@jfarrar19]

You're missing a vital component: The Borg have NEVER adapted to hand-to-hand combat. Victory is simple. Boarding actions with bayonets fixed.

[@heartoffire5902]

Yeah I noticed that too. Whenever I watched the shows and saw how inefficient Borg are in close combat I just thought, 'send in actual martial artists'. An army of monks would annihilate a cube's population easily. They don't depend on Kirk-Fu to win fights. All those double-fisting strikes in the shows drove me crazy when I was younger.

[@deadlynytshayd2220]

See how strong picard was when he was a borg, even data took a few seconds arm wrestling picard.

[@dg63641]

As far as I know, quantum torpedoes were not yet developed by this time

[@LoreReloaded]

+dg63641 They weren't

[@90lancaster]

Section 31 likely had some stock piles of Neutron Torpedoes though (which are more powerful than most Photons - and less powerful than Quantums). Oh and speaking of Bait - we do know one that always works on them "The Omega Molecule"

[@ryanalving3785]

90 Lancaster Nobody new about borg obsession with omega until voyager though

[@lebawsski]

We are the borg, resistence is.. " We are the federation and we got plot armor.

[@lexwaldez]

Ram a small ship with a Genesis bomb on board (because you just KNOW section 31 built some new Genesis weapons) and turn the Borg cube into a giant ball of unstable ice or maybe a goldfish. Assimilate that.

[@TYNexus0717]

"If it bleeds, we can kill it!"

[@LoreReloaded]

+Nexus #boom

[@JeanLucCaptain]

If it sparks, we can fry it!

[@williamcostigan91]

"If it wears red, it dies."

[@KertaDrake]

@@williamcostigan91 Quick! Let them assimilate our patented Redshirt Armor!

[@src6339]

Ever wonder what would happen to a red shirt crew member if star trek did a cross over episode with the A-team? Cold open *shot - exterior of ship orbiting an m-class planet *transition music Captains log, star date 223982: an incident has occured during a routine away team excersion to the surface of a 20th century analogue world and has had fatal consiquences for one of my crew. *Spock and kirk walk into the medical bay. Kirk: ok doctor, how bad is it? Dr Mc coy: I don't get it Jim, common sense would suggest that after receiving a hit like he did this man should be dead, but having ran every medical test that I can think of, I can't find so much as a scratch on him! In fact comparing the result to those taken during the last crew evaluation, i think it's fair to say that this man is in the best shape of life.. Kirk: what are saying bones? McCoy: what I'm saying Jim is that this man can't die! *Close up of crewman putting his Red shirt back on. *Musical sting * close up of Spock raising an eyebrow. * close up of Kirk looking concerned. :role opening credits:

[@billrich9722]

Knowing the plot is pretty handy in devising the perfect outcome.

[@LoreReloaded]

Right?

[@billrich9722]

You seem pretty active in the comments. Are you sure that is good for your health? This is KZbin, after all, which makes it comparable to a slightly shinier Tantooinian Cantina.

[@LoreReloaded]

Sure.. I mean I've been diagnosed with several different mental illnesses after just two weeks of being a responsive content creator but the birds in my headbrain tell me that its fine and only to worry about the ongoing apocalypse that mother has planned.. so...

[@billrich9722]

Ah. Best listen to her, then. Do you happen to know anybody who does this kind of thing for BattleTech lore?

[@LoreReloaded]

What ifs? No, I do Btech lore every other week and this person does them as his channel theme: kzbin.info/door/MpEn1nKT6E_gt75GDK9IJA

[@BadwolfGamer]

4 Borg drones disliked this counter-attack strategy.

[@scpguy1381]

Also I should mention that Earth Space Dock is abosloutley massive and cant be flung at the borg. I mean even starfleets biggest ships arent even close to its size, space dock would be over 2x as large as the cube and took 30 years to build

[@robertmartinu8803]

Fusion vs. Antimatter: well, Fusion turns easily available Hydrogen into energy. Antimatter has to be made, that takes at least as much energy as you get out of it. The former is a source of energy, the latter a way of storage. Now one could assume that the reactors of the station are used to make antimatter to replenish a ships stockpile faster then its own fusion reactors could. There might actually be a superweapon in the rough in there...

[@saquist]

Anti matter is made by the sun and can be collected in Coronal Mass Ejections in the form of anit-electrons (positrons) but these will not produce the same power as anti hydrogen and deuterium would produce.

[@bobbobson5595]

saquist I doubt that the naturally occurring antimatter would be enough to fuel Starfleet

[@saquist]

You'd be absolutely right.

[@isaackellogg3493]

Not really a superweapon. Starfleet already uses munitions based on antimatter-matter explosions. They're called "photon torpedoes."

[@AenVegra]

@@isaackellogg3493 yes... but only 1 kilogram of each in a torpedo. Imagine a couple megatons of it. *gets hit with 1,000,000,000 photon torpedoes equavelent at once*

[@12oshinko]

Never got why only one cube is sent. Send 2000 cubes.

[@aperson22222]

I just don’t see how you could evacuate Earth that quickly. Other population centers in the solar system perhaps, but not the homeworld. Its population was already nine billion in “Terra Prime,” and since then it’s become the capital of a federation of dozens of Class II civilizations. The UFP’s post-scarcity economy imposes none of the upper bounds on its population size that we’re used to thinking about today, it should be well on its way to turning into Trantor. (A quick Internet search did not give me the Earth’s population in the Trek universe, but I can’t conceive of a scenario in which it would not number in the tens of billions.) As long as Earth is there, the Borg will not be interested in the space dock. Ten billion potential drones present a far more attractive target. And that’s going to put a tremendous strain on Starfleet discipline. Most officers have loved ones down there, and history is full of battles large and small where combatants who’d been in an advantageous position disobeyed orders and broke ranks because their families were threatened. There’s no reason to assume that Hanson even knew about the transphasic cloaking device, let alone had one on hand. That line of research was abandoned after the _Pegasus_ was lost. Continuing to tinker with it when it did not offer a likely avenue to success was way too risky, considering the catastrophic consequences that would result from Tal Shiar agents learning about it. The Borg referred to Klingons as Species 5008; to humans as Species 5618. We’ve seen assimilated Klingons, so the Borg did not pass them over as they did with the Kazon. That means they’ve known quite a lot about Klingons since long before they assimilated the _Raven._ It’s possible that the first Klingons they assimilated did not yet have cloaking technology, but Picard knew they had it by the time of BoBW. Hell, it was general knowledge in the Alpha Quadrant, so the Borg would have known about it since they got the _Raven_ at the very latest. And since they assimilated at least one Romulan colony offscreen in “The Neutral Zone,” they presumably know quite a lot about cloaking technology. I wouldn’t count on your cloaked Klingon fleet catching them completely by surprise. Beaming armed torpedoes on board is how Archer defeated the Borg in “Regeneration.” This cube is heading to Earth in response to a hail from the ship that Archer destroyed. I don’t know whether that means the Borg will know about that tactic, or whether they’d be able to defend against it if they did. It could well work, but it has been tried before, against the same notoriously adaptable enemy.

[@BusoRockin1000]

I agree on most points, but Voyager used the tactic of beaming a torpedo on board later chonologically.

[@srvfan454]

Ram it at warp speed. Let's see them adapt quickly enough to block that.

[@hardstarboardradio]

Nice plan, but there wasn't time for anything so elaborate, even if it would have worked - which, as the massacre at Wolf 359 illustrated, it would not have. That's not to say the Borg were "untouchable" - Admiral Janeway's transphasic torpedos proved spectacularly otherwise - but they were impervious to anything Starfleet could throw at them in 2367.

[@saquist]

There was time. Handson said: In less than twenty four hours, this armada's going to hit that Borg vessel with everything we can muster Enterprise was disabled for 8-12 hours. This was At Wolf 359 likely they had another 12-24 hours before the Cube Arrived at Earth. This plan could have worked in that time frame.

[@oldkid8811]

Phase cloak was OP to the max! So glad it was not forgotten!

[@callumunga5253]

The only major flaw which I see is the assessment that the Federation ships would attack swarm style. This strategy was developed after the abysmal loss of Wolf-359, thus without anticipating this, they would use typical Federation tactics of sending waves of ships at the enemy, then getting them to fall back, then sending the next wave. Against the Borg, all it does is allow them to adapt to any and all technology star fleet has, whilst taking minimal damage.

[@zuzoscorner]

I never understood why federation insists on space battles being in 2D when space is clearly 3D

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Even Kirk went past that flaw and beat Khan with it.

[@kb9oak749]

With help from Spock.

[@doomnova1946]

Much of this is to deal with the cost of production. In the series, they generally have always gone with this to cut down costs. Especially back in the days of TOS and TNG. The second part is most people do not do well with 3-dimensional combat. So for the typical viewer, it is easier to just do what I call a 2.5-dimensional plane where there is vertical staggering of ships and a bit of vertical movement but most of the action is on a 2-d plane.

[@labeld]

I actually would like to hear a follow-up peace to this. How does this shift in the timeline effect the Federation and the timeline leading up to DS9? Phase Cloak usage in the Dominion War?

[@VestedUTuber]

For one thing, it would increase tensions with the Romulans due to the use of a cloaking device of any sort. This would likely lead to the Romulans siding with the Dominion outright in the Dominion War (though likely with the intent of eventually turning on their Dominion allies afterwards). This in turn would spell trouble for the Federation/Klingon Alliance, since they'd be fighting a war on two fronts instead of one, with Sol right in the middle of the jaws of death. A surprisingly good segway into Lore Reloaded's video on what would happen if the Dominion won the war, actually.

[@chrstwrg]

You just gave the borg earth.Your forces are too thin and you are fighting in your front yard.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Chris They were always fighting in the front yard..

[@chrstwrg]

Not that close. And your picket lines are just going to give the cube fewer targets to shoot at.You have to attack on mass just to slow that big fucker down and they wouldn't have any upgrades.They just grabbed ships in range to intercept, didn't they? Don't get me wrong it was a shit plan but it was the best shit plan at the moment.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Chris there plan was closer.. Wolf 359 failed and no one else to protect them.. Im pretty sure mine was better.

[@chrstwrg]

Agree to disagree.But that ass beating did make them get their shit together.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Chris there's not an agree to disagree here.. Wolf 359 failed and the cube sat at earth unopposed...that's fact.

[@47chevy49]

I’ve always thought an auto piloted ship could just suicide at warp into the cube and it would solve the problem. A warp core explosion and the momentum of a ship at warp should be more than sufficient to destroy a cube.

[@TSEDLE333]

The Klingons use disruptors and plasma torps that are similar to, slightly more or less advanced than, Romulans (their photon torps are worse than Federations ones...)....Romulans (a few colonies, maybe even ships and crews) had been assimilated by the Borg previously...that negates the Klingons right there, both in weapons AND cloaking...it may outright spell trap for Locutus... Locutus may not notice the main trap (even the captain of the Flag wouldn't have access to ALL the secret info o Starfleet), but certain patterns he could and would end up noticing. Like when he noticed Riker was trying to trap him. I didn't see you adding that particular argument here. The reason Wolf 359 was so fucked up WAS the result of Locutus being there. Without him, the assimilation process would've been less... efficient... No, Quantum torps were NOT fully developed at the time (but if they were enough so, they'd still be in testing phase with little to no ships capable of using them in large numbers or even adapted to them). They WERE in development for the future engagement with the Borg, with Starfleet and the Federation thought it would be years away still...If I remember correctly one of the first ships with the modifications to actually launch the Q torps was the Defiant (that at this point wasn't even off the designer's datapad...). There are other points I think are too simplistic to work/the Borg ARENT (at least not before the BS in Voyager) that stupid to fall for. But. hey, who knows...I like to conjecture, but were flying in some heavy fanfiction here. The Borg were meant to be the bogeyman of the universe, but someone in the control of things though they would be too hard to write for and things got the way they ended up.

[@iconbearer]

Aye. i would have like to have seen the original season long story concerning the Borg to have played out.

[@TSEDLE333]

The Klingons weren't as adept as the Federation to improve their weapons and sciences. So we simply cannot say they'd improve them enough or not.F or all we know, yeah, they should've improved their early schematics and output, but (in the same vein...) maybe they didn't.

[@scpguy1381]

5:49 yes and a more millitrized and more powerful starfleet wasn't able to defeat the borg until the deus Ex machine by Picard.

[@MacTX]

I'm not sure I understand the point of this scenario. If I understood it correctly, instead of losing an entire fleet of 30-40 old Federation starships at Wolf 359, you're proposing that we sacrifice Spacedock, Picard, and (an indeterminate number of) Klingon and Federation ships. Your plan seems like it would be more costly. You're still losing a good number of ships and personnel but Spacedock would take far longer to replace than say building modern era (smaller, stronger) ships to replace the large clunky ships destroyed at Wolf 359. Not to mention, you're opening up a can of worms by not saving Picard. His participation was crucial for stopping the 2nd Borg invasion attempt. From the way I saw it, Wolf 359 was a bargain. For the defeat of the Borg Cube, starfleet lost a small fleet of old ships and those Jupiter planetary defense crafts. What they gained was a more modern fleet to replace the ships that were lost plus what was learned about the Borg by capturing and probing Locutus. This reminds me of Annorax and his time ship trying to change history thinking he could do better.

[@LoreReloaded]

+MacTX The point was to win the battle of the deus ex machina had not occurred.

[@MacTX]

So win the battle of Wolf 359 by not having it at all. You're just shifting the battle from one place to another. With an outcome that seems worse for the Federation because the original timeline seems too convenient for your liking. Who is to say that Data putting the Borg to sleep causing an overload in the Cube isn't anymore ex machina as pulling off that Spacedock trap.

[@saquist]

No. The Purpose in shifting the battle isto buy time. This is a strategy designed to lure the Borg into a trap and it likely would have worked.

[@MacTX]

+saquist He already stated that the point was to take out the (what he considers as) ex machina for the defeat of that Borg cube. When I think of Star Trek ex machina, the baseline for me is a powerful entity coming to the aide; like when Q saved the Enterprise at the last minute from a cube, or when the Bajoran prophets saved Sisko during the retaking of DS9. If we're talking about the Borg and Federation at the time of The Best of Both Worlds, it's pretty much a fantasy scenario to think the Starfleet of that time period could beat the Borg of that period. The spacedock trap being even more of an ex machina than the sleep/overload. The trap requiring far more things left to chance and having things go right for it to succeed. I personally don't think the trap would work. They have Picard's knowledge and experience as well as every Starfleet officer they've assimilated up to that point.

[@saquist]

Yes, Lore Reloaded is using story elements that are only known in our present and not at the time of Best of Both Worlds. 2367 However that doesn't mean that a similar trap would not work. Best of Both Worlds already said that the Enterprise caused a 2% power loss in the Borg Cube. From here the Math is simple. 100% power loss could be caused by 50 ships firing at Hi EM and a Station like the Orbital City with far larger power reserves and the support of fleet could effectively use that advantage to overcome Borg Adaptation for a very real and substantial victory using known knowledge for 2367.

[@stembuk]

If the Borg hadn't established shield use at this point, you don't need to worry about hammering a hole in the side to get torpedos in - just pull as many spare Anti-Matter canisters each ship carries, set the magnetic fields to collapse after, say, fifteen seconds, then beam them aboard. As seen in other episodes, if you're not seen or acting as a threat aboard a Borg ship they don't react to you. It would take time for them to analyse what had just come aboard, if the even bothered to, which should give you time to start escaping away before things hopefully make a big boom. If you're comcerned that they would have time to analyse and remove the cannisters, then beam them abouard before beaming *just* the cannisters back, leaving the Anti-Matter behind...

[@jasonsylvander3089]

Use the oberths as cruise missiles or a suicide run..... Ramming speed!

[@LoreReloaded]

Wait till the end if you haven't seen it :) Though I wont give spoilers here.

[@jasonsylvander3089]

Lore Reloaded lol I jumped the gun and commented 2 minutes in

[@jasonsylvander3089]

I've always wanted to see spacedock in a combat situation and see what kind of firepower it has.....

[@vic5015]

Jason Sylvander interesting idea, particularly given that having Enterprise-D go to warp and ram the cube WAS Captain Riker's last-ditch plan.

[@jasonsylvander3089]

Justin Shim I guess it's a question of wether the Borg are vulnerable to ballistic or physical damage in that way.....

[@jadenova]

I would love to see the Genesis Device used against the Borg.

[@Wedgekree]

Nice! Also on the 'in formation' bit, remmeber how close the Starfleet vessels were to one another - when the Borg would grabone with a tractor beam it would literally almost be slammed into another. I'd keep them at least several dozen to hundred kilometers apart while doing strafing runs - you shouldn't have your craft at risk of collission with one another.

[@ZachAttackIsBack]

I used to imagine similar scenarios when I was a kid playing with my micro machine Star Trek ships.

[@KertaDrake]

Self-destructing fleet of Oberths is the answer!

[@LoreReloaded]

+Kerta Losataure ....mother of god..

[@JeanLucCaptain]

ADMIRAL ACKBAR!!!

[@QUADEeee]

Even better, warp-ramming fleet of Oberths while their antimatter cores are going off!

[@KertaDrake]

@@QUADEeee I thought their armor WAS antimatter!

[@QUADEeee]

@@KertaDrake Thank you for pointing that out. Now i know that lightly tapping an Oberth against an enemy ship will cripple the oberth!

[@scpguy1381]

Easy answer, they can’t, they needed to lose, to be able to Win. They where confident that 40 starships were enough to destroy the cube, they where wrong

[@seriouslypretending]

I think you already called it when you said you might be overestimating the gullibility of the Borg. Remember they had Picard everything that was Picard was part of the Borg. I doubt they could be fooled so easily. The Klingon idea is brilliant though. I don't think Picard would see that coming, and you're right during Enterprise's first encounter with a Borg cube they took huge chunks out of it before the Borg could adapt. That is a brilliant strategy as the Borg wouldn't have ever seen Klingon technology.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Tyler Bignell eh.. I think people over estimate Picard

[@briansouthparkstudio1357]

i agree remember that Picard is only a captain so would not know off everything the UFP had even if he is the captain of the flagship. the Borg are shown to not care about anything but getting new tech to add to their own as well as taking planets to make more drones when needed. so would likely fall for the trap

[@laurenceperkins7468]

The one thing I would add would be to use the previous-generation ships primarily as warp-speed impactors. Their weapons probably won't be powerful enough to be effective, but mass times velocity squared is still your friend if you can pin the cube down enough to keep them from ducking. The borg subspace shielding is effective because they don't waste power blocking things you're not throwing at them, so hitting them with a kinetic impactor that will decompose into energy across the entire available spectrum is likely to reduce that advantage significantly.

[@omni42]

As we all know from Birth of the Federation, the only defense against a borg cube is a horde of cloaked ships. I wish they would make a sequal to that...

[@Peelster1]

I beat them once as playing as Cardassian by getting 13 ships to ram the thing. If you can't win Turn 1, it's a loss. Although if you have a Starbase, the Borg will target only the Starbase until it is destroyed, which helps a lot. Check out the armadafleetcommand website for some great BotF mods. That might satisfy your wish for a sequel. Some mods replace the Ferengi with the Dominion or Borg, I also highly recommend All the Eras Mod and there is a couple of Mirror Universe mods. There are also 3 fan made sequels, Star Trek Supremacy, Birth of the Federation 2, and Birth of the Empires. /watch?v=82ZexhdDFJk for the 1st of 3 comparison videos which I'm going to watch now. Not sure if any of those fan made sequels were completed as the mods from armadafleetcommand do enough for me, but I have been wanting to look in on them.

[@jasentracy8711]

6 (fully trained) heavy escorts / Defiants take out a cube also. They aren't available in this scenario though obviously.

[@Michaeljack81sk]

Peelster1 That's a very Cardassian tactic!

[@KertaDrake]

@@Michaeljack81sk Clearly the answer is to send a fleet of cloaked ships to glass their homeworld.

[@geraldward5318]

Klingon's and Interphasic Cloak i'm sold on the plan right there! Spacedock used as a distraction almost or at least a last gasp chance at victory if all else fails! Good plan and most importantly a desperate plan!

[@LoreReloaded]

I always aim to impress

[@bpoullos]

You could also use the Oberth Class for something else it would probably succeed at. Pack the Oberth with as much mass as possible and turn them into RKKVs (Relativistic Kinetic Kill Vehicle). The extra mass could be easily harvested from asteroids, comets, scrapyards. Fill every livable section of the ship. The more mass the more kinetic energy the thing will have at light speed. If the cube somehow survives the first, have a second and third waiting to finish it off.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Byron Poullos my problem with kinetic weapons is that we don't really have any solid evidence that would work..

[@goranmihajlovic6179]

I think that there is precedent here: a borg cube destroyed an 8472 ship by ramming it at non-relativistic speeds. And 8472 ships were even harder to destroy with weapons. Picard killed 2 drones with bullets. Speed up to several % of the speed of light, warp right in front of it and boom. Besides, the Borg's ability to adapt is kind of made a God tier type thing when I don't see how to "adapt" to MARs (photon torpedos) in any manner except to absorb the energy. But that's just a shield. There's no "frequencies" of energies or whatever. It always bothered me.

[@darman12able]

Ah, the Holdo manoeuvre a good choice for a no win scenario

[@90lancaster]

Chucking Asteroids at them might work too but you'd have to use some exotic tech to create a subspace sink hole so they can't flee. A bit like the trap that caught the Enterprise D once. You'd need to gimmick it a bit though so Locutus wouldn't recognise the signature - but some sort of means to keep them at sublight makes them sitting ducks for mass-drivers and kinetic weapons. Some time to much technology isn't what you need sometimes you just need a big enough hammer to crack the nut..

[@90lancaster]

The Enterprise D was once able to move a moon - so perhaps the same idea can be applied to a stalled ship only you don't move the moon you move the ship into the moon at a % of C. Until it goes SPLAT ! Small Borg Vessels were mostly destroyed by the impact with a planet - perhaps even more so one with an atmosphere - though there is some concern about nano-probe decontamination - but they don't seem to like snow much so crash it into somewhere cold like Europa or Ganemeade .

[@TairnKA]

Once we had episodes on the phasic shields and Borg (what came first?) I always thought that having photon torpedo's with phasic shields would be perfect to take out the Borg. Best of all the Borg wouldn't be able to adapt because they'd not know how they were destroyed (hopefully).

[@raw6668]

My main thoughts is two things: 1) How would you fool Borg Sensors from scanning the ship? If they detect nothing different about the Starbase, then they should suspect a trap. Personally, I would actually adding something to Starbase like new phaser arrays or even an actually Gensis torpedo to get them to come. 2) Do you think any plan you make would work? For what made the Brog dangerous in the Best of Both Worlds is the fact Picard had intiment knolwdge of not only Starfleet technology, but more importantly favorite tactics of many of its officers. He knew many of the admirals personally if not all of them, and was fimilar with most of the captains and he himself would be a pretty good tactician. So how would you ensure he would not see a trap in order to fool the borg. I don't think any plan would work as long as Picard was still assimilated. For if he is not a drone watching the battle, then the Borg would be less likely to know having to sort through the information they have.

[@TheDjbz]

Additional: due to Commander Shelby telling him that none of the new anti-borg stuff was even close to being ready Locutus would be 99% certain it was a trap with fake bait and may just ignore spacedock alltogether

[@raw6668]

And even if they were ready, there is no grantee they would not be counter due to Picard being assimilated as he was kept informed by the Admiral in charge of Anti-Borg Technology.

[@raw6668]

Hey Lore, any comment on this?

[@KertaDrake]

Using an actual Genesis device as bait would likely be a bad idea... That's the sort of tech that would get the collective to send more than one ship, fast.

[@matthewbardos4424]

This may have been stated somewhere below, but there is some evidence that the Borg had encountered at least some Klingon tech well before Wolf 359. Two pieces of that evidence were 1) The Klingon's "low" Borg species designation number and 2) In the Voy Episode "Scorpion" where 7 has flash backs of assimilating a D7/K'Tinga.

[@casbot71]

Warp ram the Supremacy, oops wrong franchise.

[@xieulong]

Haha would still work!

[@JeanLucCaptain]

ITS A TRAP!

[@dragonknightleader1]

At least Star Trek ships are canonically allowed to do it.

[@Starwarsgeek-98]

I dont know why starfleet dint just mass produce oberth class ships and swarm borg cubes with thousands of these formidable warships

[@theswordguy5269]

Have that Oberth ram the cube at warp speed. Done and done.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

BANZAI!!!

[@calanon534]

Excellent. Very little can survive getting hit at relativistic speeds. I've said this one before, too.

[@Alamandorious]

Flaw: The Borg adapted to the deflector dish attack just by -knowing- it was coming. The Enterprise D, at the time, was equipped with the most powerful ship-based weaponry available, Type-X phasers and photon torpedoes. Aside from starbase or planet-based weapons, the Borg had already faced the best that Starfleet had and found it wanting.

[@athane8358]

1 ship...even an Oberth....close range.....High warp. Only real way to win. Starfleet ships were far too weak to be effective given the number of ships they could muster to the area. Spacedock has no weapons and doesnt need a warp drive so no warp core. Fusion reactors dont really explode, they are very safe methods of power generation. Riker was going to try this before they figure out the shutdown.

[@aaronsalentine7876]

ram the ships into the cub and self destruct?? We win the battle

[@hamsalad359]

One of two tactics for this encounter for the easy win.first automated fleet of old starships ready for the scrap yard to approach and engage to the cube.Programmed for all ships to get as close as possible in a formation and let go with simultaneous warp core breeches. Second option use a ship that should be unknown to the Borg to approach and beam aboard.Do so with sealed antimatter containment case cut the power and boom no more cube.

[@on1yadam]

I would pull a star trek online and launch a warp core at the borg cube.

[@LoreReloaded]

+Adam Spencer #boom

[@Autofleet4429]

The Borg might detect it

[@JeanLucCaptain]

Works in insurrection!

[@Autofleet4429]

Jean-Luc Martel they are not borg

[@on1yadam]

Connor Richardson the borg detects everything....the question is will they think it's a threat.

[@jamieslingsby9907]

I'll add my two cents regarding this. some of it has merit such as the borg not being adapted to klingon weapons aspect. but if the borg ship is making a beeline for earth knowing that it is practically inviulnerable to the federations weapons at that time thanks to its encounters with the enterprise and picards knowledge etc, they wouldnt even bother stopping to destroy the picket lines you set up. they would just carry on at warp speed through them. robbing you of the time you need. The enterprise wasn't able to go to warp for a considerable while after doing the deflector beam attack on the borg ship hence why it missed the battle at wolf 359, i beleive it would still be trying to catch up by the time the borg made it to earth the stardock class base is HUGE, it would take days to evacuate a station that size even of just the civillians, never mind ALL perssonel same with earth, mars and luna. the same size factor makes moving the starbase out of earth orbit practically impossible. even with 40+ ships worth of tractor beams (minus the ones in your picket lines) additionally almost no evacuation ever goes off without problems/panic/chaos. if you're evacuating three planetswith populations in the billions and starbase that could in in the region of 50,000 people where are you putting everyone? your ships would need to carry them somewhere. Regarding the part about the phase cloak - you really think they'd have the time to set something like that up. you'd have to find 2 phase cloaks (most likely prototypes as the technology is unproven) from somewhere, get the ships into the space dock (that you''re in the middle of evacuating) in order to fit them which will take time that you aren't likely to have.

[@Demobot1]

I am one of those people that believe the Borg are untouchable simply from what is seen. I also believe the Klingons wouldn't arrive in time assist the Federation. Next it would take forever to evacuate Earth, the moon and Mars. I mean look how long it took evacuate New Orleans during hurricane Katrina. However I do like the idea of using the Genesis device as a weapon of mass destruction. However we have no idea how long it takes to build a Genesis device. If a Genesis device could be built in a reasonable amount of time the second problem with the Genesis device is that it needs to prime. And while priming it releases a huge amount of energy the Borg would detect and avoid. The Borg are a tough match since only species 8472 has been able to manhandle the collective. Anything else is almost wishful thinking.

[@LoreReloaded]

until voyager..

[@Demobot1]

Lore Reloaded Using future technology that the rest of the fleet didn't have until Voyager got home.

[@LoreReloaded]

I'm talking even before that, my friend ;P Voyager wiped the floor with the borg most times. In TNG they were a beast though

[@Demobot1]

Lore Reloaded Voyager/ Janeway never beat the Borg. She has out smartest them and escaped. But have never openly defeated them.

[@XMysticHerox]

@Lore actuallöy they never really just outright defeated the Borg. They beat them similar to how they did in TNG by outplaying them. It just happened so often that it became trivial and the Borg stopped being all that scary.

[@nunya3163]

Not a bad plan, but I forsee two issues. 1) Rather than using an Oberth or Constitution class filled with torpedoes, why not just do a warp core breach? This would be far more devastating. 2) It is unlikely that the Federation will have the phase cloaks on hand for implementation, and thus cannot materialize any ships within the cube. Rather, they may simply have to ram into the cube at high warp.

[@markwilliams2345]

It’s not a bad plan but hindsight is 20 20 you know things they didn’t

[@LoreReloaded]

+mark williams Like what specifically ?

[@bobbobson5595]

Lore Reloaded The severity of the situation, how the Borg work and most importantly how to space warfare

[@rogersmj]

How to win the battle of Wolf 359: have Janeway bring this week’s plot device.

[@Spacegoat92]

Quantum torpedoes were not yet developed at Wolf 359. They were developed at the same time as the Defiant. Best way to win it with no loss of life, would be an old navy tactic. FIRE SHIPS. get a fleet of old starships, pack them full of explosives and have them simultaneously warp into the cube. Riker was about to do it with the Enterprise at the end of Best of both worlds pt 2. The force of one warping ship hitting the Borg cube alone would be enough to cripple it. Let alone several, and packed with explosives. The battle would have been over before it started and they would celebrate with a huge piss up in Space dock.

[@martinsharrett1872]

Spacegoat92 - explosives can be problematic because the impact would damage/destroy many of your bombs significantly lessening the damage. You would also need a triggering system that the Borg couldn't figure out a way to disarm if possible. My personal though is just stuff a bunch of ships with antimatter containers full of antimatter. You don't need a triggering mechanism. The impact will do that for you. You don't need to worry about them being "disarmed" as there is nothing to disarm. Further the antimatter of your payload will very literally destroy the matter of their ship turning their own vessel against them. The trick would be making sure you hit it. But we already have a solution for that as well. Just turn your ships into a shotgun shot shell. All you would need to do is get the cube to stand still which just requires your conventional fleet. A better solution would be antimatter containment tanks fitted with a warp/impulse engines, guidance and a phase cloak. Insto dead Borg cube... o... But romulan treaty blah blah...

[@Spacegoat92]

idiot number3 screw the Romulan treaty! I'm in command of Starfleet now! Yes antimatter would be a good idea.

[@laurenceperkins7468]

Antimatter explosives are impossible to disarm via damage. Turn off the containment and it goes boom. Damage the bomb? The containment field shuts down and it goes boom. You only need one to detonate correctly to set off the rest.

[@martinsharrett1872]

Laurence Perkins - valid point. But if you just use straight anti matter containers you use their ship as part of the matter anti matter warhead increasing the damage. But that's neither here nor there.

[@BrickworksDK]

In all honesty, I have often wondered why this tactic seems to be completely non-existent in the future. When you're able to accelerate mass close to, or even past, lightspeed - through warpdrives or hyperspace or whatever - you don't really need weapons to take down opponents like a Cube. All you need is to point a ship at the enemy, accelerate it as hard as you possibly can, and let simple physics do the rest. In fact, you don't even need to pack it full of explosives - the sheer kinetic energy of the impact should be enough to completely obliterate your target.

[@heartoffire5902]

I'm reminded of tricobalt warheads, which create tears in subspace. *If* the Federation was already using this kind of weaponry it seems it would make for an effective defense against a Borg cube prior to adaptation. Punch enough of a hole in their defenses, then launch a salvo of tricobalt torpedoes. Pieces of the cube will literally be removed from regular space, effectively eating the ship from the inside out. The regular damage from the explosion itself is just a bonus.

[@martijnvanweele6204]

When a ship goes to Warp, it does not really "dematerialize", does it? It's still a physical thing, just encapsulated within a spacetime bubble. So have a ship, any ship, set on an autopilot Warpspeed collision course with the Borg Cube. That way, it essentially becomes an RKKV, a Relativistic Kinetic Kill Vehicle. Don't even bother calculating how much kinetic energy it'll have, because as objects with mass approach lightspeed, their kinetic energy already tends towards infinity (something as small as a paperclip going at .9999% the speed of light, on impact, will release the same energy as 67 Hiroshima bombs), so even at Warp 1, your ship has already broken the scale. On impact, within milliseconds, it'll blast the individual _atoms_ that make up the Borg Cube apart into their elemental particles, creating a ball of superheated plasma that is so bright the human eye couldn't even register it even if it weren't so brief that it wouldn't be able to see it in the first place (so basically, if you were looking at the Cube when the ship impacted, one moment it'd be there, the next you'd be blind and you'd never know what happened). Also it would disintegrate the crust of any terrestrial planet in close proximity, so perhaps do this while the cube is outside of a solar system. There's a lot of fun things you can do with FTL. A lof of sciencefiction authors tend to forget that...

[@VioIetShift]

The real kinetic energy of a ship at warp is sub-relativistic though. It's not "really" going that fast, it's taking a shortcut through space time.

[@martijnvanweele6204]

Still, at that level of technology, you should be able to accelerate something to relativistic speeds and use it as an RKKV...

[@VioIetShift]

martijn van weele They could, but it would be trivial for the defender to shoot something at the missile from extreme range and blow it to bits. You definitely would see it coming.

[@martijnvanweele6204]

You know why we don't blast giant asteroids coming to hit the Earth to bits like they do in the movies? Well, apart from the fact that there haven't been that many of those and we don't have the technology, it's because if you blast a giant asteroid to bits, you still have a large amount of space rubble heading for you. If you're lucky, then you've just blasted a huge rocky asteroid into a whole swarm of smaller asteroids, so now it won't fracture the Earth when it hits, it'll just rain fire from the sky and scorch every livable surface on the planet. If you're particularly unlucky, your asteroid is in fact already a pile of rubble that is held together by gravity, in which case your missile or whatever you're using will do minimal damage, and even if you manage to blast it apart, it'll just reform. An RKKV, for all intents and purposes, is just a really fast asteroid. Say I have one big RKKV, which I launch at you. You blow it to bits. Since relativistic speed means a metric buttload of kinetic energy, and objects in motion tend to stay in motion even when they're blown to bits, that means that those bits are now a whole swarm of small RKKV's. Imagine that paperclip with the same energy as 67 hiroshima bombs, except now there's a few thousand of them. And the larger you make your RKKV, the greater this effect becomes. If you watch Mythbusters, compare it to that time they tried to stop an RPG by shooting it like in _R.E.D._

[@VioIetShift]

Any missile that impacts the relativistic projectile will collide with said projectile at relativistic speeds. Traditional models of collisions don't apply. The event will be so energetic that you're likely to see spontaneous fusion of the projectile. This is also Trek we're talking about here, where plenty of astronomical events can be engineered away. They would be able to formulate a counter.

[@endtimesasmr2590]

I have countless problems with your plan, not the least of which being that it invites the borg to earth and relies on them being idiots, but the most glaring one is that fusion reactors don't simply explode. When they lose stability they just switch off and cool down.

[@JoshuanKnode]

While the Federation is militaristic in it's organization they are not a war fleet. Their ships are designed with science and diplomacy, and it's logical to think that federation leadership lacks the warrior mentality and military tactics necicary to beat the borg. That's why they lost at wolf-359, not because the fleet wasn't powerful enough to destroy the cube, but because their combat tactics where primitive, and all pretty easily countered. Especially when someone who knows each and every one of those tactics are assimilated. My point is, if the federation where run like a military, they have the technology and weapons to defeat the borg. Just not the mindset or the tactics. There are a number of ways Wolf-359 could have been a victory. Like the "Combat Cone" formation used in the Lensman books, or focus fire tactics.

[@bobbobson5595]

Joshua Knode True, but I think even so Wolf 359 would be a defeat. I don't think 40 old ships would be enough

[@grayscribe1342]

Try the 'delayed fireing' tactic from one of the Harrington books. Fire all torpedoes, but have each salvo accellerate differetly so that the entire ordonance from all 40 ships impacts at the same time. Not much strategy, just brute force.

[@treudant]

Even if the phase technology wasn't used you could just kamikaze those Oberth and Constitution class filled to the absolute brim with quantum and photon torpedoes. Now they're useful!

[@scpguy1381]

7:38 only photons at that point and I fought they would have had the phase cloak

[@Lucofthewind]

I would definitely call myself a Borg fan boy, but sill you present a good argument and battle plan here.

[@skyedodge3597]

DUde this is SO COOL!!! i wish they had done this in canon. im subbing. keep up the awesomeness

[@jonnybridin]

Great vid. Just 2 things i would care to mention; DID quantum torpedos exsist back then? And what do you think the romulans would do after this battle? Perhaps capitalize on the crippled federation? Again, great vid.

[@LoreReloaded]

Yea..no Quantums and I think the romulans would use the weakened Starfleet as a way to work in the shadows and either get spies in or keep them weaker

[@EF5Cyniclone]

Until three years after the Borg incursion into Federation space, Starfleet was unaware that the phased cloak developed aboard Pegasus was made functional (among the few aware of it's development in the first place), and unable to replicate it due to the loss of the single prototype. Considering the clandestine nature of the Pegasus experiments it is also highly likely that the entirety of the project data was contained in the ship's computer, and not otherwise backed up to any other location. The final phase of your strategy would have to rely on the transported warheads instead of re-phasing starships inside the cube, as the incursion most certainly did not leave Starfleet enough time to re-develop the cloak essentially from scratch, even if they were under the impression it could be developed successfully, which they most likely would not have been.

[@johnwallace4408]

Great theory! Better plan, however; what would you do if all 3 phases of your plan failed? What would your 1st action be?

[@thesamshk]

That's a solid plan. And just as a question: wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce kinetic weaponry as the federation against the borg? I have heard and read many times that the borg had a lot of problems against non energy weaponry...

[@FreeOfFantasy]

is there any good reason not to use kinetics? Gauß guns at a reasonable high fraction of c are bound to be more effective then a phaser. At high enough speed it has more energie than the equal amount of AM.

[@Kyrinson]

If the battle became truly desperate then they could just ask the ship captains for volunteers for a warp speed ram into the cube. Depending on exactly how warp drive worked it would either slam the ship into the cube at relativistic speeds and annihilate both ships, or warp the structure of the cube as it passes the warp bubble making it more likely for the ship to plow into the middle of the cube and detonate the warp core when containment is breached... nothing like a good old fashioned anti-matter explosion in a confined area to totally wreck your day.

[@CultureClashh]

even though my lore levels are low i want you to know your videos are fire!

[@LoreReloaded]

~THISLOREISONFIRE~

[@src6339]

1 re-align and retune every subspace array in the sector 2 heavily disrupt subspace communications around the cube as it enters the wolf 359 system. 3 intensify & randomise subspace interference in the system to disrupt the cubes sensors. 4 continue escalation to heavily desrupt subspace in the region, making it impossible to form a stable warp bubble within the wolf 359 system 5 continue to amplify subspace oscillations in the system to the point that the wolf 359 star destabilises. 6 beam over to the USS Winchester, have a nice cold pint and wait for the whole thing to blow over.

[@XenretheVague]

A lot of people hated it, but I found myself really liking the episode of Enterprise that featured The Borg. It was a *great* use of movie canon to play around with the Enterprise Series. It was also a good way to introduce The Borg into the series without completely rewriting TOS, TNG, and Voyager canon.

[@LoreReloaded]

I think it was interesting to have the movie canon with it - of that i'll agree. I wasn't a fan the way the borg were done or how it .. didn't make future stuff not make sense..

[@jnieto237]

I actually love this. Inventive AF.

[@LoreReloaded]

Glad you enjoy

[@darkcheshireking]

that would be a sic plan to watch play out!! can you imagine those ships phasing into the cube then Boom! that would have been an epic battle to watch...i love it!😂

[@watcherzero5256]

The main flaw with your plan is it takes far too much time and planning to implement with the two days notice they had, Wolf 359 was chosen as they wanted to prevent civilian casualties in the Sol system, it was in essence pulling back as far as possible to gather as much firepower as possible. The Constitution Class would also have been out of service for 50 years by Wolf 359.

[@MacTechG4]

Another option would be to implement non-Terran weapons/defense technology to star fleet vessels, use Vulcan/Andorran/Tellarite/Klingon technology, have a random assortment of ships armed with non Fedtech. Since the Borg had partially adapted to fedtech, they’d have to take time to adapt to the new tech....

[@cobaltclass.]

This seems like an interesting time to take all you know about the Borg and feed it into the 'purchased' Echo Papa 607 weapons system and command it to defend against the Borg. You like to adapt? We got just the right weapon for you... hold my beer.

[@stupidburp]

Dragging out the battle with delaying actions only gives more opportunity for the Borg to adapt prior to meeting the main force. Applying maximum firepower with all available ships in one location all at once is a better plan. Choosing a spot near a space station is a good idea if you can use the station defenses to add to the available fleet firepower. Choosing a spot near an inhabited planet however is not such a great idea since this provides the Borg with an opportunity to turn the fight into a protracted ground war simply by transporting a small team down and assimilating the locals for reinforcements.

[@JimbobHarrigan1984]

I'd get the Oberths, Mirandas and Connies and use them as remote control kamikaze craft to ram the the cube at warp 8 or warp 9 with their warp core set to explode as soon as impact is made. It exploits the Borg weakness to kinetic impacts and stops the Borg adapting to the Federation and Klingon weapons

[@jpraiswater8625]

The phased cloak wasn't available during this time. The only working prototype was still locked inside the Pegasus which was still within an asteroid. Also, Quantum torpedo hadn't of been developed yet. They didn't appear until several years after this time.

[@yonasnegash3282]

Instead of torpedoes I would use an old ship with it's warp core set to an imitate warp core breech. You can also add a tricobalt device to this ship to amplify the explosion. This would guarantee the cube's destruction.

[@FireRevanShadow]

Small problem Wolf 359 happened in 2367 but quantum torpedoes didn't show up until 2371

[@LoreReloaded]

+Revan Or did they? #section31

[@FireRevanShadow]

Lore Reloaded I'm just surprised none of the ships went for ramming speed! I guess none of them went to Worf's School of Captaining.

[@LoreReloaded]

Btw, that was a mistake on my side with the quantum torpedos..was just trying to make a joke.

[@FireRevanShadow]

Lore Reloaded Section 31 can work in mysterious ways

[@jhmcd2]

I don't think it would work. First, I don't think the Federation had more that 30 some odd ships available at the time. I believe that Starfleet has over 30-40,000 ships total, but the Federation is so vast, and warp drive is so slow that most likely the ships we see at 359 are the only ones capable of getting their before the Borg including the Enterprise. Now, lets assume that's all the ships that you use, I am not sure if this would work for multiple reasons still. 359 only lasted a few minutes, meaning I don't think the picket lines of reduced vessels would last 10 minutes regardless of strategy. Also, Phase cloaking was only available on one ship at the time, and it hadn't been found yet, so I don't think it would have been available nor Quantum torpedoes which I always assumed were designed for the Borg threat, and were apart of the weapons Shelby was referring to as not being available. Now, with that out of the way, I don't think there would have been enough time to evacuate Earth, the Moon or Mars. I think the mines would help slow them down, but once the Borg were looking out for them, they would avoid them. Now the Klingons were the wildcard, as we don't know exactly where they were, if they eventually joined the battle, or were too far away to respond. Cashing Spacedock into the cube is a nice strategy, but like you said, it would be problematic. Actually, the best strategy may have been to wait till they arrived at Earth and ether force the cube to crash into the planet, or, do what Riker was about to do, and crash a starship into the Cube at warp speed. The starship could be abandoned, and remotely powered into the cube, so no need to kill anyone like in Trek '06...or Star Wars VIII.

[@LoreReloaded]

I used only the resources available during the episode.

[@KertaDrake]

They could probably slap together a phase cloak in a few hours if needed once they knew the Borg were coming. It wasn't that big a device and they likely knew it already at least partially worked from smaller-scale tests. You don't need it to work long, and the plan practically is calling for it to fail anyway. The real question is was anyone present smart enough to think of that odd secret failed project from years ago that got covered up very thoroughly and use it.

[@maisiesummers42]

Pausing at 1:48 - the Borg are much faster than any other ship in the Alpha quadrant. The Enterprise barely kept up with them, and the only reason they didn't just speed away was because Locutus told them not to.

[@GamerFromJump]

Any thing that involves transporting torpedoes bugs me. You should _NOT_ be able to transport torpedoes. They utilize antimatter warheads that “detonate” via the collapse of the magnetic field bottle. Attempting to transport a torpedo _should_ immediately cause it to detonate as the magnetic constrictor equipment is dematerialzed. That’s why you have antimatter transport ships instead of beaming it around. You shouldn’t even be able to transport antimatter at all, because it would explode in the pattern buffer.

[@theduke7539]

Quantum torpedoes werent available until nearly 5 years after Wolf 359. Not to mention, the phase cloaking technology wasnt just a failure, all knowledge of how it work died with the crew of the Pegasus and would not be rediscovered until after the ship was found several years after the battle.

[@evilspoon5280]

How to defeat the borg in one easy step, get a few oberth ships holding near the second defensive line. When the borg slow down, all ships other than 2 fully automated oberths begin warping out wile the oberths go to full warp aimed directly at the cube. The damage of an FTL collision would reduce the borg to tiny paperclip sized pieces, problem solved!