Trench Crusade is NOT For Me - Part Two! A Return and a Response

[@caspianbchalphy]

I do think that when people were saying “if you made this same thing but about Islam you’d be in real hot water” have more of a point that you’re saying. My reasoning is that the game seems to be mainly focused on Christian’s vs Hell and thus the Sultanate isn’t as focused on. At the same time from what I remember reading the Sultanate doesn’t seem to be shown in nearly as bad of a light as the Christians (though I’ll admit I need to reread the lore). I think if the Sultanate vs Hell was the main focus and it was given the same treatment Christianity has in this game things may very well be different

[@chad534]

Exactly.

[@AnimeAnarchist-rp2ob]

Yeah, the Sultanate that uses kidnapped kids and drugs and brainwashes them to fight for them is shown in a real good light. lol

[@EmperorPylades]

They're mass producing human homonculi to use as expendable slave soldiers. Homonculi who have free will, and can develop their own sense of identity - its outright magical human cloning. Its not as overtly grotesque and blasphemous as New Antioch's Meta-Christs, but its pretty horrific.

[@Deletirium]

Well said. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised - nothing based, wholesome, or fun is allowed to exist these days without the alphabet zombie "Das Kapital" crowd foaming at the mouth and getting it ruined.

[@SirFailsalot91]

There are ways to do the "Both sides are capable to do cruel and inhumane things" without just making the two major sides "Awful people in red" against "Awful people in blue" - the use of Heaven vs Hell is peak law vs peak chaos, justice without freedom ruled by authority vs freedom without justice ruled by might, and anyone who would rather side with neither trying to balance the two in some form of harmony for themselves. Looking at Trench Crusade, I don't see law and authority from the holy side, just chaos in a pope hat - the Imperium having its Inquisition and allying them with the Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and Deathwatch fits because they have that feel of being warriors of law and authority by comparison to the likes of Chaos Marines and Genestealer Cults that look more disorganised and wild; Trench Crusade factions just look too brutally cruel and similar to be able to distinguish who's fighting for Heaven and who for Hell, everyone looks like they're evil and by that point why bother choosing a side when they're equally as terrible?

[@enovos3138]

Agreed

[@mellowmind9488]

If you delve in 40k of 3-4-5th editions - you will find similar stuff. A lot of things weren't fleshed out. "Good guys" of GK were some mysterious dudes, who slay innocent people just to stay secretive. Inquisition is a "Law and Authority" sounds like a joke, delve into some Dark Heresy material. Inquisition is a freaking circus. Its not even an organisation, but random deranged dudes, some of them traveling to ensure their mad vision of how things should be in a company of fanatics and looking 100% like Trench Piligrim. Sisters of Battle before their rework, when they were a part of Ordo Hereticus looked just like Trench Piligrims as well. (Warbands of murder cult preachers with chainswords, adorned in rags and remnants of ordinary people, forsaking all worldly possessions, running around as a company to Thorian Monodominant Inquisitor, slaying all psykers bcs they are witches and people working with them and not caring that in process of doing that they destroy systems of travel, communication and trade, and that they hinder Imperium capacity to exist and wage war are peak WH40k - and you bunch them in group of "Law and Authority") If you look at early warhammer artwork - you will be in same situation as with TC, you can tell good guys from bad guys on some of Blanche artwork only bcs you know their lore. Thats like warhammer a lot of people are nostalgic about and find it in TC now.

[@nopenope5598]

I was turned off by trying to go to their discord to try and get a feel for the community and just walked away with a giant no thanks feeling.

[@greywanderer5935]

I’ve heard some bad things about the discord group, the whole drama put me off checking out the game.

[@omni-hexagon3514]

I was intrigued about the game until I heard about the community building around it, especially the Discord. It almost sounds like a bad parody of what other people think the 40k community at its worst is.

[@Daemonik]

I took a peek at the discord after hearing some bad things about it. I went in, spent about a half hour scrolling about, and left with no desire to go back. They didn't present as the sort of people I would want to spend time with.

[@easteuropecollusion468]

Unrelated to TC specifically, discord (and reddit) communities for hobbies are often an absolute edgelord/modsexual filled trash. I went to several servers related to channels I liked (Shadiversity for example) and then noped out of there.

[@yagsipcc287]

​@@greywanderer5935yeah I was in the original Discord group and wow it was nuts they said no politicals and stuff like that then the mods went off on politics non stop when called out on it they started to mass ban everyone... Who even asked why. It got so bad they stopped the group and left it for a couple of weeks to start a new one

[@michaelsudsysutherland5353]

Yeah, using real religions brings criticism, from the adherents (practicing or not). Fact of life. Part of why I'll be unlikely to touch it given that the manner in which it's written seems to me (opinion) to be deliberately anti-Catholic with the way New Antioch and others are presented (and frankly, Islam is handled with European kid-gloves comparatively with few or no mentions of the Prophet; while many mentions are made of Christ). Numerous comments by some of the designers have also confirmed a very anti-Catholic worldview as deliberate to the design.

[@yagsipcc287]

Oh yeah they will be very tame with Islam and Judaism like big time... They are going to add them later on or something BS.😊

[@AnimeAnarchist-rp2ob]

I guarantee you that you cannot link us to a single quote to back this up - "Numerous comments by some of the designers have also confirmed a very anti-Catholic worldview as deliberate to the design."

[@chad534]

@@AnimeAnarchist-rp2obcomments contain innuendo not quotes. I garnered the same from some of the interviews. If you didn’t want people drawing these conclusions then you shouldn’t use real religions.

[@AnimeAnarchist-rp2ob]

@@chad534 So quote what they said in the interviews that made you feel that way. Y'all really suck at this whole "having a disucssion" thing. lol

[@johntaylor8469]

Games workshop has their problems. But man is 40K such a unique setting and vibe that I have yet to replicate.

[@Dram1984]

This. 40k is just so cool I can't quit it.

[@captin3149]

I'm looking into Golden Dragon's Lancer. I like the concept and the models. I think they're a lot better than TC and definitely cheaper than WH

[@chad534]

Problem is it’s turning into Scooby Doo. What’s the gang up to this episode. The grim dark is fading with each new primarch release.

[@johntaylor8469]

@ shit man I’d say 40K currently is pretty damn dark. But I get what you’re saying

[@IHaveAName1824]

my thoughts exactly

[@Daemonik]

"it's not my bag, baby" seems go be taken as a personal attack nowadays. Trench Crusade is not for me, as things stand. That's not me saying it's a bad game. It's not me saying it's a bad setting. It's not me saying the people who like it are wrong, or stupid, or misguided or lesser.. I'm saying it's not for me. Simple as that. Why do people get so upset by that?

[@jackrogers5712]

Everything is meant to be inclusive so everyone can participate now. By stating that something isn't for you, it means you must be the one with the problem, since everything is inclusive.

[@SirFailsalot91]

​@@jackrogers5712everything is for everyone, unless you're guilty of having an opinion that the majority don't like, then it's not for you - it happens way too often to be simply a handful of isolated cases.

[@Dilapidated_Dan]

I just love WWI and the art/models. The lore is mid, the fanbase is toxic, and the spin on religion is pretty disrespectful to the source (most modern media is pretty terrible with its portrayal and understanding of religions). I'm collecting the minis and moving on with my life.

[@2D_Memory]

I feel the same, I cancelled my kickstarter because it wasn't sitting right with me. Will probably grab the Mercenary bundle when it becomes available because I really dug those models.

[@c.robtoz]

​​@@GrimdarkMiniatures 🔝 I called it. The media literacy crowd is here.... -.-

[@CrusaderinBlack]

​@@GrimdarkMiniaturesMy goodness a lot of this went over your head. We're tired of the constant negative portrait of Christianity, and if this is the same slop you're free to eat it.

[@cthuludreams1]

​@@GrimdarkMiniaturesmuh media literacy

[@AlexAlex-zt3hi]

terrible with the portrayal of which religions? you mean christianity, hebrews, and may be something in asia. because i cant find a lot of things about the guys who "hang with alphabet people", or make them fly, or allow marriages with literal "kids". or the time they tried to restore the "cult to the sun" in "komiefornia", yeah, that thing the "south of the south of murica people did", "offering people to the gods" and then "dont wasting their meat".

[@TrenchCrusadeStories]

Hello brothers & sisters. I would like to speak to everyone here. I respect all of your opinions. To my fellow Christian’s I understand the feeling of it being a bit weird when you first hear about this grim-dark world. When it first came about part of me felt like it went against my beliefs. The more I dived deeper into this world. The more I understood the vision. Warhammer 40k is based on similar things. The emperor is literally referred to as god many times. Just because he doesn’t want to be called a god. Doesn’t mean he isn’t directly influenced by our god. Literally has the power of one besides creation of the universe. Horus would be Satan. The fallen son that tried to rebel against his father. I believe that if you can push that aside then maybe you can give this world a fair chance to flourish along side it. To the author that says “there are no good guys”. The christians in this world must use their own pain & suffering in the same way Jesus did. He died on the cross in agony. Now to show their devotion they sacrifice apart of themselves. Each character has its own way of showing that sacrifice. Very few actually inflict pain upon others that are devoted Christians. That is the main difference. The Christians sacrifice themselves as Jesus did while the heretics sacrifice others as well as themselves in brutal fashion to specifically go against god. They know they have no way to hurt him besides to hurt his creations. The few Christian’s that do harm others is in the same light as those in 40k that kill those who worship the emperor. Except here they will not allow even the smallest weakness in faith. For that brings even more evil into this world & can spread rapidly amount their ranks. For those that dislike the discord I ask you to come back once more people have joined the community. There are many bad apples in every group. I believe this fan base can be just like the warhammer fan base. Very respectful & friendly while at the same time having our differences. The Islam part of things is only just beginning. & already has a short stories written involving them. They are definitely a main focus & not pushed to the side. You must remember we are only just beginning with the foundations of the lore. So you can’t expect all three sides to be extremely detailed & focused on yet. We are working daily to create this world. Please give us time & grace as we proceed. I look forward to sharing the stories of this world. Thank you for your support & thank you for your opinions. God bless.

[@jal1656]

I commented on the last video and I want to first thank you for a follow up and clarification of your opinion. I find myself agreeing with most of your points in both videos and absolutely agree that a lot more world building needs to be done to flush out the world. The only thing I might challenge you on is the assumption that the rest of the world will look just as hellish as the front. If you look at most war documentaries the focus is rarely about the people back home and rather on what was happening in the war. I'm not saying that the rest of the world isn't horrible, but rather that it looks like you are assuming that it is. Either way I hope we get an answer from the creators soon, and I once again thank you for the video.

[@darttito]

I can't find a single passage in the lore primer that makes either of the three good factions seem even remotely close in cruelty to the Heretic Legion. Please, someone, provide some examples from the books.

[@caspianbchalphy]

Ok sill fully admit I was one of the people coping saying that the church are the “good guys” in TC. That could become I’m Christian and ai want to see Christian’s as good but when you tell me one side is literally Hell and their mortal followers the other side really has to be more “morally good” than that because He’ll u.s. the most evil you can get (unless it’s the forces of Hell fighting against each other). I think if you’re going to have Christian’s be a 9.5/10 in terms of evilness while demons and heretics on that scale are a 10/10 then you really need to change Christian doctrine so much it’s no longer Christian. I’m fine with the more barbaric stuff like hands nailed to a shield and a lamb hanging from what looks like a dreadnought on the good guy side IF there are reasons for it. Like they provide holy protection &/or power. Yes there needs to be places in the world that aren’t affected by the war and live more peaceful lives to show what’s being fought for. That is very important and all you can do it maybe assume that is what’s going on in certain Christian (and Muslim) nations but at best that’s a shaky foundation and at worst the lore contradicts this interpretation. Lastly again the fans really are not great. They drive away people that would normally be interested in the game and setting and cry fowl when you criticize it in any way.

[@Dram1984]

I commented on the last video about how I didn’t really want to play it because I’m a Christian and it felt disrespectful to me but that was just me and everyone else is free to do whatever they want, no judgement from me. The first comment was from another Christian who felt differently and we went back and forth very respectfully. After that it was almost entirely your typical Reddit-tier fedora-tipping, “Skydaddy, skydaddy!” Nonsense. Which did little to sell me on the game or its fans.

[@-Ironers-]

It's not surprising, the game seems purposely designed to attract anti-Christians.

[@gidierecklusiak4550]

I fully distrust the thing just based on the fact it's not Christians making it. Not that I am a Christian, but why would people make a Christian based thing while they're politically more supportive of abcwhatever+. If you are willing to answer my questions. What branch of Christianity are you from, and why do you dislike it? All I really know about trench crusade is the lore vid Arch make a couple of months back.

[@Dram1984]

@ sure thing. So I’m a Baptist and very ecumenical, I think lots of denominations have a lot of man made accretions but that doesn’t mean they aren’t Christians of anything like that. I enjoy talking to other Christians and learning from them guided by the command to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. As to why it feels disrespectful to me is it’s taking real and important things, the cross, the eucharist, baptism, etc… and twisting them into fodder for a game. And further twisting them in ways that feel like mockery to me, the “they eat the cloned flesh of Christ to get super powers” and the like. I’ll be the first to admit I haven’t dove deeply into the lore but I feel like I don’t really need to; I’ve seen enough. And again I fully admit this is probably a “me” problem and if others feel differently that’s okay. I feel that *I* would be being disrespectful if I played. If others feel like they can play and not be disrespectful that’s cool. Christians are taught in Romans that in some matters like this personal conviction matters a great deal and we are to at least respect other Christian’s convictions so as not to make them stumble.

[@ghillieguy52]

It does feel like they went all out on the christian faction being basically evil in that universe. The hell one is equally evil and islam seems like the clear good guys of the setting being on par with the imperium since they are more of a 'neccesary for survival' type of grim dark.

[@gidierecklusiak4550]

@@Dram1984 thanks for telling.

[@DeadGoldfish01]

I’m treating Trench Crusade just like I treat upcoming video games. No preorders. No over hyping. I’m just going to wait till the release of the game, let it simmer for a bit and then decide if I want to buy into it or not. And I’ll admit that I like the look of this game so far. But if the game mechanics are bad, if the story is bad, if the developer support is bad and if the community is bad, I’m not going to join this hobby. No different than video games. I’ve been burned too much to fall for it anymore. And I will also say, as a Christian, what caught my eye for this game was the Trench Pilgrims. Not only do I love their look, but when I see their devotion to God, I’m like, “Yeah that’s me!”. If God passed me a Lebel rifle to slay thy enemies, I’m going in those trenches and going in with pride! And I’m hoping this game will let me do that in my brain as I play. But as I said before the game, story, etc. has to be good. I like what I see so far as lore, but I only read what lore has dropped sense the play test rules dropped. Not anything new or recent.

[@merlin4084]

My only complaint after watching the first video was that you're too fixated on the lore needing to be more fleshed out and that 40k at least has hope going for it. If you only read the lore in the 40k rulebook, you'd get the same impression that there is no hope and that the universe is circling the drain. There was no hope for anyone, and that was the state of play when you got started with the game, and obviously it didn't matter to you at that point. The hope you're looking for never existed in 40k at all in the rulebooks until Guilliman got resurrected. Most of what you are looking for in the 40k universe only came in the novels, and I felt it was unfair to compare Trench Crusade to the wider lore of 40k. The only leg I think you can stand on, and that I agree with, is the visual aesthetic of the game. I'm not a fan of most of the designs the artists for the game went for and luckily you don't need to use their minis if you don't want to. I haven't played the game, but I do want to, and I plan on using left over minis from the now defunct Dystopian Legions game (with the British as the Heretic Legion....because I can that's why!) Also, crucially, you don't have to subscribe to the level of grim dark the game is offering. My Antioch Warband is based on the Teutonic Knights, but one that's almost fully professional, with clean-ish green uniforms, mechanised battle suits, tankettes (I'd use them as proxies for the mechanised battlesuits) electrified bayonets, etc. Like most games, it's up to you how far down the grimdark rabbit hole you want to go.

[@WhatThe40k]

I found these past 2 vids on Trench Crusade to be a useful lay of the land.

[@Yawbus1976]

From the artwork alone...seems to be the kind of thing that folks who like Saw, or whatever torture pron lite is currently in vogue. There's having some macabre elements in your setting, then there's wallowing in it.

[@CTimmerman]

Wallowing like collecting crosses, or eating literal flesh and blood of your idol?

[@fuhd9892]

The Christians should absolutely be the good guys in this setting and we should really see the contrast between the two forces, with Christians/muslims being the over the top righteous force to contrast to the full blown evil of the hell side. doesnt mean the good guys cant have blemishes but I feel like the body horror stuff on the christian side really drags the whole thing into a grey slop of moral ambiguity.

[@bc9402]

I agree. The problem with trench crusade, is you can’t really do “both sides are just as bad” When one side is literally demons. That’s like saying the serial killer and the guy who’s trying to defend himself from the serial killer are the same. Not to mention, the existence of hell would automatically validate the church and the forces fighting for heaven and earth. “Guys we know we are fighting for the right thing cause God is on our side and we fight demons.”

[@KnightofEkron]

I will never understand Christians whining about the extreme asceticism of Trench Pilgrims, you're downplaying the most interesting aspect of your religion.

[@bc9402]

@@KnightofEkron I’m not a Christian. I’m a Atheist, apostate some would say. My criticism comes from the fact that a lot of media likes to bash Christianity to the point it’s become boring and uninteresting. You can depict the church being corrupt or Christians doing foul things just fine, but there’s only so much you can see that before you just get bored. Much like what Northern exile was saying. If both sides are just as bad, then what’s the point? Why care? Don’t get me wrong, the aesthetics are cool as hell (no pun intended) but I need more. Otherwise these ideas just get boring real fast.

[@ksamuel9]

​@bc9402 I've been seeing in TC groups as well how people want a humanist faction. I always say how are you gonna be a humanist in a setting where the forces of heaven and hell are PHYSICALLY fighting in front of you. There shouldn't be any in-between.

[@SerV689]

Ehh I’m a Christian and it makes sense to me. In a world setting so bleak and relentlessly horrible, it makes sense that the very culture of humanity, even the side in opposition to that evil, would be changed by it. If our lives were that horrible, we’d probably also lean on the more war-like nature of God than his mercy.

[@FrogWizard224]

My least favorite thing about the internet is the people who think there is only one correct opinion and everyone else is stupid. My best friend and i disagree on a lot of points but we have discussions together and we each learn more about the other side whether it sways our opinion or not is irrelevant.

[@IamtheWV17]

I know a lot of Christians are offended by this.... but I kinda dig it. The armies of God are very clearly the good guys to me and I enjoy the idea of God's chosen soldiers following his will to destroy the creatures of hell. All of their fanatical practices seemingly actualize real metaphysical results and are thus much more understandable.

[@EmperorPylades]

On the matter of Dark Souls style storytelling, I would argue that doing it to the extent and detail that FromSoft have in the SoulsBorne games is actually MORE work than linear storytelling. They've effectively written the WHOLE story and lore, cut it into a million pieces and scattered it among all the items in game between their item descriptions. The problem is that 99% of the people who try and copy that style are doing it badly or half-assed, and only writing half the story and letting the players fill in the blanks.

[@GlennM53]

We'll still be able to send in nightmares and minis, even if they trench crusade related, yea?

[@bc9402]

First off, I want to say thank you for clarifying and I agree with with a majority of what you said. Second, I was one of those that said the Christians were the good guys and how I disagreed with your phrasing about there wasn’t any good guys. Thinking back on it, this is more a failure on trench crusade presentation, see the problem with having Hell and it’s demons as a faction, is that automatically makes the other side good, since Hell as we understand it is supposed to be unironically evil and only seeks to destroy and corrupt. (That’s not even mentioning god and his inventions) But trench crusade seems to want to present both sides as a both near equivalent to one another in both aesthetics and brutality, but again, this falls apart when you make one side literal demons.

[@SerV689]

Honestly even with how harsh the “Christians” are in the settings, it’s still pretty obvious to me that they’re the good guys. Hell is literally Hell where as the humans are behaving like this because they’re simply a product of their INSANELY horrible existence. I mean Hell literally has a physical foothold on earth and is physically attacking humanity. Does anyone expect humanity to be dancing around literally anywhere?

[@quaidens]

My feeling towards Trench Crusade and religion is that the makers are cowards. Their lore went extremely hard and specific to target Catholic Christian rites and sacraments for its dark twists, and held back on giving Islam the same treatment. They heroically went for the jugular on the guy that will only say “Ah wilikers guys knock it off please” and they didn’t dare write a thing that would cause real meaty controversy. Which is mediocre, because their whole draw is controversy.

[@tomtruyens9804]

I understand most of your points but find it weird that on one hand you say people can't consider the currently available rules as the final product, yet you do the same for the lore but even harder. The game is in preproduction, in its testing fase, ofcourse they have focussed on the rules and the models (their selling point). I find it really weird to state that the lore isn't deep or nuanced enough yet. Ofcourse it isn't, for now people just needed a setting to playtest their games in. More depth will come, probably already in the first rulebook. For now, what they haven't told us can be extrapolated or imagined by you yourself. For me personally an air of mystery and keeping things a bit vague is even a bit refreshing. Just because they don't spell everything out doesn't mean the storytelling is lazy either (that remark about Dark Souls style storytelling was probably the most annoying thing you said in this video).

[@hauptmann329]

At least I'm not the only one that noticed this double standard

[@Fezzik312]

@@hauptmann329 The entire comment section is a double standard. On a channel that constantly criticizes GW for smoothing 40K's edges, a game that at the time of its release was all edge, criticizing the established including religion with its heavy religious symbolism, now everyone draws the line at this being too edgy. If those commenters were 40 years younger they would have been part of the people saying that playing 40K is devil’s worship. That said, if someone feels like TC isn’t for them for whatever reason that’s totally fine and also, North's attitude towards there being no good guys and bringing real religion into the mix creating controversy is on point.

[@spacefork7296]

"Grim Dark Derpieness" is my new favorite way to decribe these settings that jump the shark.

[@SirFailsalot91]

Grimderp, if you will.

[@drmwatson15]

I'll wait till they release a full version with mini's before even taking a peek. Sounds intresting on the surface.

[@margaretwood152]

I actually kinda _Liked_ *†✠☨✟ TRENCH CRUSADE ஓ✶❂✸* ...that is, until I discovered it was (officially) associated with *🏳‍⚧⚧==28 MAGAZINE==❇☑🏳‍🌈* ~> who famously -brought us- _Shoe-horned in:_ *Female ♀Space Marines.*

[@seasick8828]

Thx for the follow-up video, cleared up some of your issues with the game. Though I tend to disagree on your pov of this setting vs the imperium in 40k. Sure, some planets in the Imperium were not touched by war for centuries, almost all of them are still proper sh*tholes to live in. And if I have a choice of either starving in an underhive, getting eaten on a deathworld, getting radiated in my shitty manufactorium job, or just get quickly chopped in half by an invading orc mob...well, I am not sure what I'd prefer honestly ^^ I'd like to give my 2 cents to the ongoing discussion though: I am a catholic, ( I even work for the catholic church for my 9 to 5 job ), but I don't feel my faith is mocked by this game at all honestly. Sure, the church in this setting is quite brutal, but it has to be, it is a brutal world and setting. The church in this setting might do some f*cked-up things, but they do what needs to be done to save the rest of the world, and to save the souls of the people. And the church overall in this setting is not that bad btw. The Trench Pilgrims are the real whackos, but they are not even sanctioned by the church. I feel that the developers of the game really immersed themselves into the lores, the myths and legends, the symbolism and iconography of the realworld religions, and very much try to handle it respectfully, while of course dialing everything up to 11 to have it fit their setting. tl,dr: even though I take my faith very seriously, I don't feel it's mocked upon or belittled by this game. But that's only my pov, I don't vlaim ot's the only right opinion, I am looking gorward to a friendly discussion Sure, in our world, the proposal of cloning the body of Jesus Christ would be considered a blasphemy. But guess what: In a world, where a third of the population has thrown in their lot with the devil, they might have different standards for blasphemy.

[@gidierecklusiak4550]

Dark Eldar are most certainly not the good guys in 40k. And people who think they are, are just 100% WRONG! NOW Craftworld Eldar are the undisputable good guys in 40k. And people that think they're not, are absolutely just WRONG. 😎 😎 😋 😎 😎

[@bc9402]

The inquisition wants to know your location

[@gidierecklusiak4550]

@@bc9402 Tera. Blackium libereum streetius. Building E. Level L. Section D.A. Unit R. Number 1. No gun's allowed.

[@insufficientdata0247]

Are you by any chance a fan of pancreasnowork?

[@Lucoryphus_rex]

Never heard anyone say that the dark Eldar are the good guys😂

[@Hero-yu4om]

How can you ignore the greater good!

[@miharu654]

In dark souls' defense you are playing essentially as a complete nobody thats essentially crawling around the still rotting corpse of a civilization that has long since fallen. Its people mindless shells of their former selves. Its gods either left, unalived, crazy, or fallen. All you can do is piece things together because you arent part of the story as it were youre just coming across the extremely tragic aftermath of a gods ultimate folly of hubris.

[@derdoue]

At the moment it's just skin deep. You see the pictures, get the vibe and that's it, nothing that made me curious. I hope the full release will have some substance, but I'm not expecting it.

[@richardowen808]

Does Trench Crusade have any potential as a series of novels?

[@saviorsloth7784]

Ok so this is only my 2 cents. If I were writing a trench crusade story. My story would open up following say an American, Brit, and a Geerman. (Each book would follow a different nationality and different military occupation) We go through there relatively peaceful lives in the beginning. Our American works in a big sprawling arms factory. They work long hard hours at a huge factory. making rifles, artillery canons, and war machines to send to the front line. He dreams of a life of adventure and helping the cause. The Brit a strong hearty farmer he grows plants and animals to send to slaughter to make rations to go to the front. He is pressured every day to go on a pilgrimage by recruiters. For our German he makes shoes in his family’s cobbler shop, and he hits the age that all young men are forced into military conscription. All 3 end up being placed in the same squad as they are pushed onto the front lines. They bond together with stories of home and do their best to survive the brutal combat that is Trench Crusade.

[@saviorsloth7784]

Obviously parallels were drawn to our history, such as the British trying to peer pressure young men into enlistment, the German conscription, the Americans sense of adventure causing him to enlist, and America using its geographical location and strong industrial capabilities to pump out supplies for the war effort

[@TheDropPodCast]

It looks cool but I'm not sold on the rules or miniatures.

[@maxxon99]

Have no fear! It seems a forthcoming supplement will add the good guys! Namely, the Red Brigades...

[@christophercrossland7475]

To people who call this the 40k killer, when this becomes just as goofy as 40k is sometimes, we’ll see who gets the last laugh

[@Lucoryphus_rex]

I don't have a dog in this fight so I'll just watch what happens and make an informed decision once the game fully releases

[@johnconnor2572]

This gave me a much better idea of why you don't like this game. I was sold on the basic premise. I conceptualized it as Doom in the past in the holy land. Rather than in the future on Mars. I also didn't mind the lack of upfron lore in Dark Souls. I love watching videos piecing together lore and sprinkling in some speculation. It only makes me that much more invested

[@markedwards2607]

I get the lore may not be everyone’s cup of tea, for me it’s not what I’m after in a game. This game has reignited my love of the hobby completely, I’ve painted more model than I have in the last few years and I’ve nearly completed my first battle board ever. Terrain building has always been my favourite part of the war gaming hobby in general and trench crusade has excited to build again. I do play 40K too and it’s also a good game but recently I’ve just got burnt out by it. So small skirmish games like mordhiem, frostgrave and now trench crusade are all I play (for now) Great video and your pretty fair in both your videos, your passionate about the lore and this isn’t doing it for you.

[@Eric-jt8yx]

TC is not for me. Too much body horror and disgusting art. Plus just flat out blasphemy that’s not needed. Thanks for the video and sharing your thoughts

[@tiny_worlds]

Give it 18 months and it'll be as dead as all the other little half-arsed indie games of the last 20 years. Someone will pocket a bunch of cash off the Kickstarter, some people will get some minis and a book and then it'll be gone and forgotten.

[@terranaxiomuk]

Might use some trench crusade minis as proxis in 40k. The mechanised chunky bois might make decent ogryn. Thats about it.

[@IHaveAName1824]

"if there is only shadow, then you are just sitting in a dark room bored" -North one line explaining why trench crusade doesnt intrest me

[@edwardclay7551]

Contrast this setting to the setting of Reign in Hell for example?

[@septimus64]

Everyone is not going to like everything. 40k has been around since the 1980s so obviously it has a thicc history. I'm not a fan of nihilism but it is a game with toy soldiers...

[@Kenneth-k3b]

I'm religious, but not Abrahamic, so while I can find the aesthetics of things like catholocism or orthodoxy appealing a setting based around that mythology is entirely unappealing to me. Conversely I can do things like the ecclesiarchy in 40k becauseit's just the aesthetic being used as an inspiration. Also if you want to see a perfect example of rabbids, just look at any video criticizing the clone wars from star wars.

[@unomauhasard5219]

I think trench crusade has the potential of being its own niche. Being ultra dark and vile makes it more endearing for some people than warhammer. So I don’t think it needs to change that much to do well. They already have a lot of support and investment and i think focusing on making it a warhammer-killer or more warhammerlike would be a mistake.

[@maddogmadden23]

Im into the esthetics of Trench Crusade. Im also a little bit more open to that Elden Ring phenomenon you were speaking about where you kinda make your own story. Although some more lore would be really cool as it goes on. Not every game is going to be for everyone and thats ok. Cheers.. (i am also a dark eldar player)...

[@guineapigsith699]

Trench Crusade is that moment when you realise the corporate guys saved 40k from the artists and creatives.

[@krasnoludzkipiwowar8303]

I backed trench crusade because mmm trenches, ww1, cool models and Commonwealth exists(even as a note, I want to make New Antiochs mech warriors as a mech hussars), damn. And I can get 3d prints and give them to local hobby space, for everyone to at least try something new?

[@ryandugan9176]

It’s interesting, I respect your opinions, but I have the exact opposite feeling about a lot of things you mention outside of trench crusade. I love the stormlight archives, I love the show don’t tell storytelling of souls games as a narrative drive. I don’t think that’s lazy, I think the opposite modernization of narrative in which you are shown and told is patronizing and insulting. I do hope that the Muslim and Judaic representation gets more nuanced, and the theming becomes more consistent, as well as the splash art across the factions. The iron sultanate feel a bit like generic dnd fantasy westerner referencing Judaic cultures at times. I imagine part of this is that Mike Franchina being a Diablo artist is comfortable upsetting devout and strict Christians but not Muslims to the same extent. The diabolical forces also are incredibly satirical in their depiction alongside the Christians, but could use some deeper cultural references to balance them as well. I think a compromise between what you want and what I want would be to give every side a bit more sympathetic lore with more cultural background reference. While I disagree that the imperium are the good guys(it’s the craftworld eldar if its anyone, and even then the ends justify the means is only so much of an argument, and they prioritize the fate of the eldar over humanity, even if they do actively protect and save humanity often), I do think 40k has a lot more sympathetic narrative ties which massively help the interest in the hobby long term for nearly every faction. I grew up Christian and studied a lot of religions throughout my life. It’s an interesting place to satirize crusade era religions to extremes. I agree it is “brave” to upset satanists, Muslims, Catholics, and the more conservative bigoted American Christians all in one setting, but I think it’s as good a place as any to have this kind of moral ethical debate of the applications of religion via satire. I think a lot of your points on the absence of narrative prompts and absence of lore are well justified and hopefully they get addressed just enough to give more to fight for for people like you, but leave plenty of room for creative expression.

[@ryandugan9176]

That being said, I’d love to hear your thoughts on the gameplay to really finalize the early access review to trench crusade if you ever feel like it.

[@vladimirpugh194]

Not too familiar with the IP, but it feels like its made for people who enjoy the kind of grimderp in 40k that comes with mostly being familiar with the 40k setting through memes and youtube videos.

[@CrispyFrenFry]

Thank you for providing a more critical analysis of the Trench Crusade lore. I am certainly intrigued by the art and story but won’t be buying into it until its lore and models are further developed.

[@tomarator]

i found this vid totally random but i think you explained your point extremely well gl in whatever argue u have with these fandom guys

[@litigation_jackson]

TC is also a skirmish game and not a war game like 40k so i don't think they're really going to compete, people will just play both

[@jackmchale2504]

I do agree they should explain a little about other nations but I think to much would hinder the idea of your own regiments being the way you want them to as oppose to being forced into the rules and lore of where they are from. I also think an idea of a peaceful world from a inquisitor is probably far from a good quality of life by our standards its probably still going to be death suffering and corruption just on a smaller scale I think the only way to have a good quality of life in Warhammer is to live outside one of the main factions and they're rules/tithes and pray none of the factions find you and I don't think a fantasy adaptation of real religions should be controversial. nobody cares if its a small religion or pagan religion they only care if its a big religion only then does it become controversial.

[@Registeel13Ty]

The art is kinda cool, but I definitely agree there needs to be more to the story to make me care about it.

[@kellykuciemba6789]

It all seems pretty interesting. Nothing has grabbed me yet. I've tried watching a few videos about the factions. Actual religions and historical adjacent geography is a turn off. Keep it all as is, but with made up names. It's apparent who the good are supposed to be, but more you nailed it about the lack of hope, from what I can tell so far. I'm intrigued about this world. I like big armies, maybe a version of big battles in 15mm. This has all the makings of a bigger battle game, uncountable hordes of cheap troops and demons, and whatever.

[@mattrichardson6629]

Don't worry about the trolls @Northern exile. I love trench crusade but all your comments are completely fair as far as I am concerned! Well met sir.

[@danielloaces589]

I’ll wait for more lore to drop. Just thought the iron sultanate were cool. I’d be more for it if they didn’t use real world religions, which is why I’m still iffy about the whole thing. But my friend got his order in so I decided to join as well so I could at least try the game out. Wish they had a more stylized art style though, because the minis just look like generic 3d printed models

[@be_quiet_and_drive]

I listen to lore videos when i work. Over the past week or so I have been listening to scannerbarkleys lore breakdowns for TC. I find myself needing to listen to something else after a while. TC is evil snd pain stacked upon evil snd pain for all sides.

[@hanoi_revolver]

I'm not interested in this game because it ignores judaism and feels very edgy for the sake of being edgy

[@EmperorPylades]

Jewish Knights of the Mount, with Golem auxiliaries are on their way as the next faction apparently.

[@gregbajer8164]

Art is awesome, concept of the setting is cool and the same for minis, but after the shitstorm that happend at the beginning with community I lost all interest.

[@Jeff-ne1lh]

I'll continue to play 40k with OPR...Trench Crusade...seems to want to shock people without much actual substance

[@spnked9516]

This always struck me as a weird criticism as TC just seems like a standard attempt at grim dark to me. I think the more accurate criticism is that some of the design work feels messy or disconnected from the setting's foundational concept. Like, look at stuff like the sniper priest or the trench pilgrims. Both look like and have fluff that feel like they belong in what is essentially demonic WW1. On the other hand, you have stuff like the the big mech thing with the breaking wheel (forgot what it's called), which is basically just a 40k dreadnought and penitent engine mixed into one.

[@edwardclay7551]

Trench Crusade lost me when it painted the Templars as heretics and servants of hell. The opening paragraph was enough to turn me away from it entirely.

[@xxCrapNamexx]

It's loosely based on the charges that got them excommunicated irl. The french king and corrupt pope accused them of being secret muslim 5th columnists (bapthomet is a frankish corruption of muhammad) because they were envious of all the money the templars were generating being a quasi-modern bank.

[@Twr0740]

It's fine I'd you don't like what someone else likes.. I'll never understand why people take such a thing personally

[@kenupton4084]

I'm in your camp, North. I have absolutely no interest in Trench Crusade. I havent even glanced at the lore. I dont need to. If I want Mordheim I'll play Mordheim. If I want an army of soldiers fighting demons I'll play Agents of the Imperium, Astra Militarum, Grey Knights, Space Marines... The list goes on. If I want trench warfare using real world factions... I'll play Bolt Action. I really dont see what TC has to offer.

[@talldorf6445]

I think this is a good point to make: the only people I see who would like it, like the models and art and not much beyond that. It's the same Criticism I have with Mörk Borg/ Last Psalms: it's not for everyone and people will call you alsorts of mean,nasty, and ugly names for hating on it. I recently got into Firelock Games Blood and Valor for good early 20th century warfare ( mostly up to the Irish rebellion in the 1920's.) And I said in the last video and I cannot stress this enough: if you want a good Grimdark World War 1 simulator: play any game that deals with mid to late World War 1: that is some grim stuff right there.

[@LD-wm7jm]

Eire is pronounced "eira"

[@seankavanagh3742]

As I said in my prior comments 40k is hell, forced religion, hive/slave worlds, xenophobia, and the constant threat of violence not only from the foes of the empire, but the empire itself, respectfully this point is sadly mute. Imagine a future where the Dark Templars are in charge? Or the Tau? Different forms of slavery but slavery all the same! Hence my being a filthy heratic since 1992 lol Religious players being offended, simply put, tough, there are plenty of media forms that take a pop at religion such as Bill Hicks, comics like Preacher and songs from Lady Gaga. We have freedom of speech and expression andI will take the risk of offence over censorship any day. As to ther other points you raise well I think they come down to person choice and yes lemons are not for everyone, so step back as you say and maybe leave this one alone. And always debate is healthy and you can't please all of the people all of the time!

[@CrusaderinBlack]

I hear that. However can you name some setting where Christianity is actually painted in a good light? It gets so dull, and if this is more of the same slop, we ain't going to be interested.

[@seankavanagh3742]

@ Dune, although be it an altered version. It is an important and pivotal part of that story with all the religions over flowing and enhancing one another. For me this is game is WWI with medieval elements / revelations dialled up to 11, is it all I’ll play? No of course not there are so many great games, I just feel this is one I’ll enjoy which seems to be getting some odd criticism. But horses and carts what ever works for you 👍

[@kemaso_]

At this point this shit is just farming, move on

[@tylercole3738]

Great video North! Always listen to your live streams as I wire houses. I was wondering if maybe some time in the near future you could give us your thoughts on Mordheim! It is a game near and dear to me and is what got me into Warhammer Fantasy and it's extensive lore years and years ago. I know you mentioned today that it was a good game, was just looking to hear about any of your personal experience with it. Thanks!

[@matthewtucker1578]

The fsct you have gone through, and re-analysed your views shows you have done your research. Not everyone will agree with your opinion, but should respect your opinion. I am unsure about Trench crusade, but as an amateur writer I am interested in delving into the greater lore of the game, and looking for potential storylines that could be expanded upon and picked at.

[@FingalShamisen]

So my experience with TC was this: They told me it's kind of a grimdark version of WW1. Since it's a fascinating time period, I was hyped. Then I checked it out and was like: "Wait a minute... so basically you swapped all the nuanced factions of WW1 and boiled it down to religious fanatics clashing it with demons from Hell?" And that's where I kinda lost interest. Turned out the only WW1 stuff are the trenches and gas masks as fashion accessories.

[@IKWDLR]

I ran afoul not of the world and the religious aspects. But it doesn't have hope and heart and more so the discord and many of its current social champions... Yeah they can take the game and go to hell.

[@tuxiepapa84]

The art doesn’t even impress me. It’s just someone who copied Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark meets Blasphemous.

[@cthuludreams1]

Eh, that feels like you're just being a contrarian. It doesn't look like that at all.

[@nolader28]

we get it, you hate it, why double down

[@Scifi_cowboy]

To my eyes, trench crusade just looks like a dante's inferno dlc expansion pack

[@oesphogianthroatcancerpoli3591]

Idc about the lore and I feel like its too early to tell anyway. The models are great tho and I personally love the evil satanic themes. Weird how it taken them so long to release the stls.

[@Zuus324Z]

🐈 s

[@easteuropecollusion468]

TC seems more of a successful _product_ competitor for WH, not _universe/world_ competitor. Plus, they focus on crowdfunding first seems like. Telling them "no mate" on putting edgy minimal world building combat first is like telling McD to stop using so much salt and sugar, cos "no mate, it is not a healthy diet". That is the point. Do agree with North that, most likely, they will leave the worldbuilding to fans via fanfiction and fan-created materials. And, again, it is a sign of a _product_.

[@Viking08]

they seem to be pushing forward fast without a lot of direction, i personally like the look of the antioch models , and got their STLs, but at this time i dont think ill be actually playing the game

[@caiustarquitius]

This setting being connected to nowadays practiced religions - of which I personally generally have no high opinion - does exactly nothing for me. The artwork is great, would do nicer without all the crosses etc... Fantasy and sf lore rocks my boat if it does not connect or does connect only very minutely to our current reality. I will not touch this game with a barge pole, just like Bolt Action.

[@thelostlegion7548]

Good on you for sticking to your guns and not letting others sway a opinion

[@LogHeadGaming]

Agreed if you need to be the "hero" or "villain" this isn't the game for you it's factions fighting each other over resources those resources happen to be human souls as opposed to loot or weapons

[@IamtheWV17]

I believe it's the exact opposite... one side is clearly the good guy, and the other is hell. It just takes a particular worldview to accept that the trench pilgrims are utterly heroic.

[@LogHeadGaming]

@IamtheWV17 it's humans being used as pawns in a war

[@CharlesRichelieu]

LOOOL to be fair, the game isnt really for anyone. Its got garbage rules and trash lore.

[@Draconic_Savant]

That's being anything but fair.

[@CharlesRichelieu]

@@Draconic_Savant XD the truth is always fair. And im telling objective truth.

[@IamtheWV17]

Buddy, you're pushing up on Level 2 there...

[@CharlesRichelieu]

@

[@jacksonmarchant4144]

I love that you swung back at the Haramis in the comments

[@jacksonmarchant4144]

Fanbase is toxic as hell.. they are not welcoming and treat newcomers as rivals

[@Hero-yu4om]

i heard this is knock off 40k and came to see if they fixed the issues i have with 40k...nope...it doubles down on the brainless grim derp...moving on

[@NornQueenKya]

Well look who came crawwwwwwwwlllling back

[@northernexile]

Oh are you going to be disappointed xD

[@NornQueenKya]

@northernexile a picture of artillery witch a day keeps the naysayers at bay XD

[@docthefaust4519]

"Seems the classy thing to do would be not to call attention to it.."

[@26th_Primarch]

​@NornQueenKya, if I remember correctly... You are/were one of the mods on that TC Discord that banned wargamers for doing what wargamers usually do when the lore is lacking, right?

[@jacksonmarchant4144]

The art is simply uninspired and SCREAMS reddit

[@TheLegionOfTheDamned.]

Again, I'm already sick of the game and its fanboys 😂