Trickle-Down Balance

So the TF2 dev team has taken to balancing around the highest level of play and you're probably thinking "they're making the game TOO competitive!" But fret not, casual gamer: the ball pit who still works on TF2, & the hardcore TF2ers of the world actually don't want to take the fun out of Team Funtress 2. Compromises are in order, and while they're certainly not the easiest thing to achieve, this video will attempt to explain how they're already on our doorstep and effectively being implemented.
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[@FlatlandsSurvivor]

“Every playstyle has its place in competitive” cant wait to see the spycrab buff.

[@garrett_the_carrott6728]

or troldier

[@sum1onsteam451]

@@garrett_the_carrott6728 It's a pick strat, similar to demoknight. Situational, but useful

[@mkmasterthreesixfive]

It can be played as a flank class detector. When the spy crab is shot, or killed, the team will be alerted to an enemy presence.

[@Botan-VEVO]

hoovy can be played as a fat spy, creating a false sense of security only to essentially drop uber with the holiday punch.

[@therealakiyama]

Spycrab uses DISTRACC

[@fcnth]

The damage that this video has dealt to fun weapons in TF2 is still palpable to this day.

[@dealerman5955]

>Average >Shows footage of him playing Good one, Dane. I’ve always liked the Texan Half Hour Comedy Hour.

[@eltiolavara9]

coming back to this video, this was such a bad idea

[@peterschulkke6072]

And just like trickle down economics, it is a complete myth

[@spacesponge8732]

As we all know, Ronald Reagan actually invented Team Fortress 2 in 1986.5.

[@trashrabbit69]

"Mr. Gorbachev, _tear down this paywall_ " - Reagan at the release of the Uber Update

[@mysoncrumphaseveryinjury3853]

RNB000740 lol that was smart

[@whiz8569]

+RNB00740 Lol. That was a good one.

[@DogsRNice]

1986.5 was a good year for games

[@gunnthunder4500]

that was actually a good history joke, both from tf2 and of cold war/east german history. Props to you

[@pharoahman475]

"Or just inexplicitly bad at TF2" LOOK MOM IM ON UNCLE DANES!

[@JLL_29]

Count me in

[@gaydes1012]

so the caber is never going to be fixed because pros don't use it amazing

[@bojackhorseman4176]

No, a weapon being so grossly underpowered that no one uses it is also a valid point for analysis and fixing. First, they must ask: why is the Caber not used by the highest skilled players? The answer is simple. The Caber punishes you for utilizing a melee weapon by dealing a lot of damage to yourself, as well as the enemy. Sure, it's a lot of damage, but if you're using a melee weapon as a comp Demoman then you are already in an extremely poor position, and sacrificing a lot of health for a good hit on an enemy is most likely a printed and signed death warrant. That's coming from the eyes of someone totally unexperienced with competitive TF2, so I could be wrong, but it is the start of a proper balancing of the Caber. Analysis, discussion, and then fixing.

[@KingHalbatorix]

@@bojackhorseman4176 "proper balancing" aka making it worse than the sun on a stick?

[@linear5695]

@@bojackhorseman4176 well, if you're basically guaranteed to die, what's wrong with bringing a player or two with you?

[@bojackhorseman4176]

@@linear5695 Nothing, but it's trading a chance at escaping for unreliable damage. Bringing a stock melee or anything else allows you to at least have a hope of escaping with some life left when in such a disastrous pinch, whereas the Caber essentially ensures you'll die whenever you use it - not only because of the damage inflicted to yourself, but also because by pulling it out you're committing to the act of charging into the enemy team, which can kill you before you even manage to hit them with the Caber. It's simply not compatible with the competitive mindset. A Demoman is essential to any team composition due to his potential to deal huge amounts of damage and area denial abilities (so much so that there's a cap of 1 Demo per team). A Demoman should never be in a harsh position, and when he is, should always try to escape alive, simply because not having him around for even a few seconds could already mean a loss for the team in question.

[@mohitonon-alco4287]

@Daniel von Strangle ...by getting into melee range and dying. Doesn't Spy do so as well?

[@bounter_]

"every play style has a place in competitive" *looks at the ban list* So that was a fucking lie

[@justanalias5642]

That more applies to highlander, less strict weapon bans.

[@Bloockackack]

Sydney sleeper is the worst case, terrible in a chaotic game where it relies on ur team, godlike free long ranged mini crits that deal upfront damage that’s still significant on anything short of a heavy in competitive

[@Ninjat126]

@@Bloockackack or just look at the Spy. If you're new to TF2, you'll get completely blindsided the moment a "teammate" instantly kills you from 150% HP. Play for any length of time, and you'll be spy-checking everyone and everything just on reflex.

[@Dragon-Slay3r]

​@@Bloockackackyaaay everything is long now, I'm not running anymore from today game is over

[@papersonic9941]

One thing most people never bring up for some reason is that casual and competitive play have different formats. Competitive is 6 players, has class limits, weapon bans and frequent communication. Casual doesn't have any of this. This is why I feel that the whole "if it's balanced for competitive it's balanced for pubs" logic is flawed. The Engineer, for example, isn't particularly useful in 6v6. It's a class that performs better in numbers, but he's limited to one. And yet, we all have stories of having to face a nasty nest of sentries in pubs. Lack of communication makes things worse. This isn't to say that Engie is OP, but he's definitely more useful in casual play. And then, we come to the Spy. Pretty much useless in comp no matter what weapon he holds. Does this mean no weapon in his arsenal should be nerfed? Not necessarily. The entire community let a sigh of relief with the DR nerf, yet that thing has never made any impact in competitive (that I know of). Again, not saying that balancing for higher skill players is a bad thing. I think competitive should be kept in mind. However, I wholeheartedly don't think doing so will AUTOMATICALLY make a weapon balanced across all levels of play.

[@toastofcatbread3207]

When Valve balances around "competitive", they're balancing around both 6v6 *and* 9v9. While you are correct that casual matches and competitive matches are different from each other, the difference isn't as much of a factor as you're thinking it is in this case.

[@morisan42]

Dead ringer was used extensively in highlander but was by no means overpowered. Post-nerf it's completely useless.

[@simonchoist256]

3:00-3:21. The whole point of balancing around competitive play is that players with higher skill won’t be able to abuse a weapon. When you do this, players with lower skill level can still use the weapon but they won’t be able to abuse it either because they don’t have the abilities to pull something like that off

[@boomeronet7888]

Poor spee

[@Brother_Piner]

Toast of Catbread except that casual play is neither 6v6 nor 9v9, it’s 12v12. Again, you can’t have engie nests in comp, and you won’t have two medics pocketing a heavy, and you won’t have most of the dynamics that play out in casual. Balancing only for comp doesn’t make a good casual game, it just makes a balanced comp game for a small percentage of players, and makes the majority confused at best, or angry at worst. The dead ringer was an example of Casual things not being a huge deal in comp, but there’s the vita-saw, which shows comp things that don’t translate into casual things. The vita-saw was OP in comp, because Übercharge is a huge deal there, and was actually banned. In casual it wasn’t even a thing. Nobody used it, and the organ harvesting thing was seen as making the weapon less useless in casual, before it was implemented.

[@SmileytheSmile]

when is volvo gonna finally nerf teh son on a stik?

[@turkey4041]

Smiley the Smile Yes, too op

[@ilovekittieification]

never,its like the tough break phlog and I can't play this game because of it

[@SmileytheSmile]

DrIvanRadosivic You must be really fun at parties.

[@hammer8771]

DrIvanRadosivic this was seriously not the thread to post this on.

[@mgthedubbs]

+DrIvanRadosivic Lost me at.. Uh. Forgot, too lost. Why don't you complain on forums and not a meme post?

[@rhodierider402]

5 years later: BASE jumper still banned on global whitelist. Just even less useful in casual. Thank GOD Team Fortress is no longer getting balanced by this idiotic system. I didn’t even like it in Overwatch, where EVERYONE IS PLAYING THE SAME GAME. Let the funny weapons stay in TF2, sixes can keep their giant banlists. There, that’s compromise, everyone is happy.

[@yeyo1019]

KZbinrs gaslighted players into thinking casual and comp could be balanced the same way, turns out that a community made game mode that plays very differently from the main game doesn't mix well with the balance of the main game, the base jumper was a gimmick in pubs because it got shut down hard by a shit ton of things like hitscan and sentries, now it's still a gimmick but a way shittier one, and oh and it's still banned in competitive so what was even the point of nerfing it

[@CyrogenicNation]

BASE Jumper wasn't even banned in Highlander before the nerf. The formats and limitations you play in affects a weapon's viability, and the differences between sixes, HL, and 12v12 pubs are far too vast for the idea of "trickle-down balance"

[@genericdevtexture3661]

Being airborne provides strategic position benefits, but at the cost of maneuverability. Increased movement options against PYROS and DEMOMEN are balanced by increased exposure when fighting Heavies and Snipers. -TF Team June 5, 2014 blog post The base jumper was litteraly designed like that! Of course projectile based classes are gonna have a hard time hitting an airborne target but it's countered by hitscan classes like sniper, heavy, scout, engineer's sentries! This nerf was completely dumb

[@talosisoursavior4015]

as others have pointed out, the issue comes when certain weapons require tons of skill and coordination to use properly, resulting in them being useless in casual, but potentially still getting nerfec since they are strong in the competitive scene. you also have the other end of the spectrum where fighting against certain weapons/classes required communication and coordination with your team, which is basically non-existant in casuals, resulting in that weapon/class being op in casuals but not in competitive. then when it gets buffed to be better in competitive, it becomes super easy to stomp with in casuals.

[@willyboi1389]

1:18 Hey! I didn’t know you were collabing with After Breakfast.

[@voidnoodle8911]

I genuinely never thought of the buffs/nerfs like that. Thanks Dane!

[@voidnoodle8911]

I somewhat agree; Stock weapons have become more or less "Tutorial weapons" in the recent years. In my opinion, stock weapons need to still be viable.

[@Ana_Ng]

stock weapons _should_ be equally viable at all levels of play, yeah. for some classes (soldier, scout), this is largely true (at least for their primaries). for others (engineer?), unlockables are _very_ much important if you wanna compete with the other team

[@SophiaLilithUwU]

Stock universally viable on all classes though. Except the heavy shot gun. And all melees except the wrench and knife.

[@jaxonnobles]

That fucking name + icon is amazing.

[@speokeosai]

@@Ana_Ng The only stocks that are not viable are: syringe gun, bonesaw, shotgun (Heavy), fists, fire axe, and shovel All the stocks are typically pretty good, and are viable on most characters. Even the shotgun on heavy can be used well with certain sets, just off meta ones.

[@lattlekada]

0:16 Wow the TF2 Dev Team has grown recently!

[@moonmelons]

Unfortunately this balancing system does have one flaw, and that is you can't apply it to EVERYTHING. Sure, keep the best players in mind 90% of the time, but there's some aspects of the game that you CAN'T balance that around. In League, this would be something like Teemo or Pantheon, for TF2 it would be something like the Phlog. The problem with these parts of balance is that they, with their current design, will NEVER be balanced in both high-level competitive and for the average player. They have designs that just simply keep them unviable at the highest level of play without being grossly overpowered. That doesn't mean these shouldn't get balance changes, I have seen some people think that, for example, Teemo shouldn't be nerfed if he's overpowered in low level play because he's still not a problem in challenger. That is a terrible way of going about things and will only serve to piss off your casual playerbase. But, make no mistake, it is good to look at pros and the highest level of play MOST of the time, just not ALL of the time.

[@Meander101001]

I think if something will never be balanced in its current design in all levels then it needs a new design. The TF team is no stranger to completely changing up weapons (see: short circuit, axtinguisher), and I believe in their ability to do that well as their recent changes have shown. They’re not perfect but they’re getting there.

[@JG_Wentworth]

That's the issue with the phlog. It's designed to be overpowered within a casual environment, not a competitive one. You won't see many medics ubering a pyro in competitive with a phlog because there isn't a lot to hit with it in comp. He'd have a hard enough time building the oomph to get crits. On the other hand, grab a scorch shot, spam it at the enemy from spawn if you're on attack, and then have a medic pocket you with free crits and uber.

[@JG_Wentworth]

Oh yeah, and the backburner is still mechanically broken. That's something they need to get ontop of asap.

[@cogginsnuff]

Did you miss the part of the video about compromise?

[@Soupnoodle99]

Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, the "azir dilemma", although I dont think tf2 has a high probablity of encountering that with the current weapon set. Basically, where a weapon (or in league, champion) has an insanely high skill requirement, as well as an insane skill ceiling. Closest things I can think of are the direct hit, the wrangler, the dragons breath and the crossbow. Although being (one of) the best of their kind when used well, it also harms players who use it without any clue of what they're doing, and who would be better off equipping a stock weapon/other option, even if less competatively viable.

[@encyclochemeleon276]

Trickle down economics did t work for a reason. When you balance things specifically to balance the highest players that can make it so that the playstyle the weapon now encourages is hard or impossible to use for lower skill players, in effect your making the weapons only correctly useable by the people you balanced it for.

[@kerbonaut2059]

there's also the fact that rich people are greedy fucks including reagan

[@robboss1311]

I think we should buff sniper bodyshots because headshoting is too hard for medium and low skill players

[@caramelcorn6777]

There's also the problem that if you're only looking at competitive, you're probably more focused on what's already good so you're not going to pay as much attention to items and classes that might actually need work. Like the new Darwin's Danger Shield solved the tanky sniper issue especially in sniper duels, but the new effect is overlooked. Love or hate how pyro plays, the class is still the most oddball and undefined out of the bunch, relying on weapon combos and gimmicks to compensate for the kinda weak base kit while at the same time possibly having the greatest number of soft counters in the game, and (to my knowledge) is the least played class in competitive. "Trickle down" means that pyro would be dead last to get looked at, where it's arguably the class that's most in need of an overhaul.

[@robboss1311]

@@caramelcorn6777 pyro is not played in comp because the only good thing they have is airblast while not being fast or having good enough of aa attack range to be a generalist and not having enough defensive power to be ran on last point defense

[@thegreatqtip4516]

Difficulty to learn how a weapon should be used and difficulty to use something properly are two different things.

[@thunderball11111]

Yeah, balancing around the 1% of people who have put a lot of effort and time into being the best at a game generally ruins it for normal people because you have to castrate things beyong reason to keep them in line. Casual and competitive balancing should always be kept seperate.

[@angel_aeon]

Coming back to this video years later and I have to say this did NOT age well at all and it should've been seen from a mile away considering trickle-down economics doesn't work in real life too. Dane usually has a lot of good takes like his justification for TeamPyro but this definitely wasn't one of them.

[@mistralextra9427]

This ^ I'm suprised he based his argument on trickle down economics, when it's widely known just to make the rich richer.

[@Jazzcat135]

I know me and my IRL friends will probably never get back into TF2 again over this amazing idea. Imagine coming back after a few years and half of your favourite guns have been made unusable in order to cater for the professional scene who already banned "unbalanced" weapons. I think this might be my 3rd game that has been ruined by the competitive scene.

[@angel_aeon]

@@Jazzcat135 Exactly, respectfully I will not for the life of me trade fun weapons for 'making them competitively viable' which for most the time they aren't and they get banned either way, it's such a terrible lose-lose situation.

[@Jonathan-tv4cc]

I mean, tbh his system still works. He said out that it doesn't actually have to do with trickle down balance, and that it only relates to the idea that the guys on top should affect the top and it should the affect the bottom. Could you tell me where you disagree?

[@Jazzcat135]

@@Jonathan-tv4cc Where to begin. Balancing a casual mode off a competive mode is a dodgy move for any game and thats even if theres no difference in gameplay. There are huge gameplay differences between comp and casual, notably restriction of gameplay modes/maps and the fact that it has half the players. Imagine if MOBAs balanced their game around 10v10s but 90% of the game was played 5v5. The comp community already balanced the game themselves, removing weapons that were broken in *co-ordinated play* something that barely exists in the casual community. People blame Valve's inability to balance as to why so many TF2 weapons got over nerfed but I strongly disagree. Look at any MOBA and you see the exact same thing. Characters that are only OP in very specific competitive styles being nuked for every player in the game even though 95% of players will never experience this problem. Its video game elitism at its finest, where the top 5% of players dictate the balance of the game whether or not it actually makes the game better for the other 95% of paying customers which is often doesn't.

[@tfwnocatgirlgf]

"in the last wave of balance changes" haha remember when we got those haha

[@famtomerc]

This video has hurt tf2 more than all the bots and cheaters combined

[@MatF1]

If you really think this, it means that you never played tf2 at all

[@aneasteregg8171]

GRU proves you wrong. They made it far worse in casual which made an already mediocre class worse, for the "problem" of Heavy getting to mid quickly in comp and slowing down the game, which is a complete non-issue in casual. Fact is, casual and competitive are completely different, and the vast majority of the playerbase couldn't care less about the latter. We don't want the casual experience most of the playerbase enjoys made even *slightly* worse to satisfy the 1% of comp players and the delusions of TFtubers that TF2 competitive being the focus would somehow save the game.

[@cheezkid2689]

The GRU is not worse, you just don't know how to use it.

[@GrapeJuiceIII]

As someone who has been playing ESEA for coming up on 5 seasons, I’m very glad that you made a video on this topic to try and reach this information out to the masses. Just reading the comments on this video I see casual players who understand some of these changes and why balancing for the highest level makes more sense. These types of videos by you and Funke make me very happy because of how you two actually think about stuff from the competitive side and then give this info to your large audiences. Well done Dane

[@Sea-v3p]

What a nice comment.

[@ninja8077]

Honestly I'm just glad that he addressed the joe-shmos of the community. Because while sure the best players know how to break it, you want to keep it fun for everyone. I'm not a pro. But I still want to enjoy the game.

[@norahsnewgroove]

The entire point and reason stock weapons are as widely used as they are is because they don't have the downsides. The entire point of an unlock is that it's stronger in certain situations or with certain playstyles and weaker in others in comparison to stock. Plus, the Heavy ISN'T reliant on unlocks. For me, the only stock weapon in the game that has no value is Medic's Syringe gun, since the crossbow and Blutsager just exist. Just giving stock weapons extra abilities for the sake of it would give no incentive to use an unlock under any circumstance. Your idea for the Rocket Launcher would give no incentive to using the Air Strike and Liberty Launcher, since why would you ever take 5 shots and -25% damage when you could just have 5 shots and stock damage.

[@toottoot8624]

Grape Juice III i always ask beater to do grape legacy, but no :c

[@GrapeJuiceIII]

same lol

[@jaksida300]

TF2 isn’t really a good game to balance for competitive play because the 6v6 format is wildly different to a 12v12 server with no class restrictions and random crits. It’s not like a fighting game where the conditions are the same at all skill levels.

[@thiagomoreira8176]

To me the problem with TF2 right now it's not the weapons balancing, but the players balancing. I get into matches that have a team WAY stronger than the other almost every time. To find a balanced match in TF is very very rare.

[@Junya01]

It's too bad that your experience is like that. Normally 1 game in 5 is unbalanced for me, with either my team or the other team rolling. But normally what happens is that the rage quitters leave, some good players switch teams and new players slots are filled in, and so for about 2/3 of the unbalanced games I've had, it becomes pretty even for the second round.

[@conservative9951]

Thats like Every single online shooter game ever

[@Achiles5th]

Not to mention, I'd at the very least I'd like to have an option to play against people of comparable skills. I will have some games where it's fair, others where I'm playing against TF2 Gods and I am but farm, and then there are the games where even with how bad I play somehow there's an engi trying to build in spawn like "What are you even.........."

[@ashtongiertz8728]

TF2 was originally designed to allow players of different skill levels to play effectively against each other. Unfortunately, things like this video have resulted in the skill gap being increased, making skill imbalances much more noticeable.

[@Fatsaver]

"Balance" It was the nerf or nothing update lmfao

[@quantum6637]

The problem here is that the very top level of play vs the rest is basically a different game. The number of players, the class distributions, and the game modes are the biggest things here.

[@dylanisaac1017]

High skilled players should decide what’s balanced: high skilled player

[@shadow50011]

Yes, because good players know how the game works and bad players don’t. You don’t ask some random hobo to fix your car, you go to people who know what they’re doing.

[@no-lifenoah7861]

@@shadow50011 yeah but you don't see someone who is skilled at using a car, like a pro racecar driver, you see a mechanic.

[@justinendel4292]

@@no-lifenoah7861 This is true, but Dane wasn't advocating the pro race car drivers deciding how to build cars to use the same analogy.

[@no-lifenoah7861]

@@justinendel4292 fair, but I wasnt trying to debate dane with that statement.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@no-lifenoah7861 I still trust a pro race car driver more if I had to choose between a hobo and a pro driver.

[@zun-viik]

man trickle down economics worked so well we better start putting it into all of our games. 5 years old and still one of the worst takes. games are still trying to do this, it's why can't take overwatch seriously.

[@hayward325]

And then there are those spanners in the works like the rocket jumper. You won’t see it anywhere in comp, but hop on your average hightower server and there there will be 5+ soldiers using it.

[@Spudcosmiccc]

Because it's fun, not because It's effective. That's why it's only used in casual zero stakes hightower where winning and losing is meaningless.

[@dont-feed-ben4833]

It's also a training tool. A lot easier for new players to learn rocket jumping without having to use a regeneration script

[@cockatoo010]

Yomps ran the rocket jumper on the 3rd map of the Rewind II grand finals. Granted, Froyo was rolling at that point

[@Fofo-sr2xu]

Yeah, Froyo were just shitting on Ascent at that point... I really dislike their ego but, hey, it is *VERY* much deserved.

[@aurumtheend]

@Sebastian Thank you for pointing that out, I just had the best 13 minutes of watching TF2 :D

[@kylepangilinan9075]

I would actually use the BASE Jumper as the most egregious example of Trickle Down Balance *not* working, by the simple fact that the BASE Jumper remains banned in 6s, as the ability to grant a Soldier free high ground at any point of their jump is far too strong for 6s to reasonably allow in the format; despite being nerfed to better fit the mold of competitive, the core idea of the BASE Jumper is still incompatible for competitive formats, while its original iteration was so unoppressive in Casual that no one cared for its existence, other than mid skill level players who enjoyed the freedom of mobility, now being handicapped due to players far more skilled than them. Literally nothing changed for competitive as the BASE Jumper simply remained banned, and the casual community still lost *something* An even more extreme example of this would be the Caber. The core reason why the Caber was banned was because though it occupied a niche, said niche was incredibly powerful and overcentralized the way the game was played by both teams. The ability to one shot a Medic combined with the Sticky Jumper turned a fast paced class fluidly switching from offence to defense to a glorified game of Whack-a-Mole, as trading your Demo for a Medic is always a good trade, overcentralizing Demo play around jumping at the enemy Medic, killing him and then dying, rather than actively participating in combat. With the nerfs to the Caber, there is no reason to use it in Competitive, as the self damage and slow pull speed of the weapon cripples its intended function, and the Casual community has completely lost a weapon near exclusively used for memes and terror, sterilizing the game's silliness; simply keeping the weapon banned rather than attempting to force it into competitive would have been healthier for both parties.

[@puddin555]

Awful example, BASE jumper was a victim of Valve's poor balance not directly related to trickle down balance itself, same with the caber

[@kylepangilinan9075]

@@puddin555 Valve's track record for balancing weapons is indeed poor, but how exactly would you begin to balance the BASE Jumper for all formats, while keeping its core identity intact? Neutering the air control was intended to stop good players from abusing it, and in that sense, they actually did succeed! However, simply having a Soldier hover over mid was too much for 6s, while in HL, the increased hitscan presence combined with the utility of the banners made choosing the BASE Jumper a niche pick at best. The core concept of the weapon was too powerful for 6s to begin with, while in all other environments, it was middling at best, even at its absolute best. How would you balance the ability to slow your fall rate for 3 very separate gameplay experiences, while not making it oppressive in one, while almost laughably bad in another? Nerfing this thing did nothing for both competitive communities, while making it less fun for Casual players to mess around with. The Caber is another story; some have advocated for the weapon to simply do enough to one shot light classes (so 125-140ish damage) but this may end up overcentralizing the meta in Highlander. This is all theoretical, but the logic checks out based on how most Highlander games play out. The Sniper is the second most important class in the game behind Medic, and games often revolve around picking the Sniper, or protecting your own. Being able to oneshot a non-overhealed Sniper is an incredible threat which could end up forcing both Demos to play Whack-a-Sniper, and also forcing both Medics to effectively babysit the Sniper with overhealing to make sure a flying Demo oneshot can be prevented, further slowing down games, and centralizing them around a singular class; the complete antithesis of competitive balances philosophy of high paced action. Even if all this is wrong, and a functional Caber isn't overpowered in Highlander, and hard focusing the Sniper isn't worth all that effort, what did the competitive scene gain? A suicide stick that does what Demoman naturally does in an extremely poor (but funny) way, which will either become mandatory for Demos to run, or completely forgotten in favour of stock. All in all, I still see no reason for Trickle Down Balancing, over simply banning overtuned weapons from competitive, while leaving dumb fun ones available for Casual players.

[@puddin555]

​@@kylepangilinan9075 At least in my eyes the idea of trickle down balance is not making every weapon viable in every possible format and in every situation (that's impossible) but rather changing them so they are not problematic in comp while still being decent and fun to play with and against, I'm not a game designer so I might not be a good person to consult about balancing but I'd recommend you to look at the Kingo & Trix Balance Mod They basically made the BASE jumper have marked-for-death while the parachute is active but they gave it in total a 40% self-damage resistance, it does sound kinda of trash but while playing with it in their servers it was surprisingly decent, but I believe there are multiple other ways of making the BASE Jumper better And about the caber they made the minimum damage that it will do with the explosion 125 (it still doesn't do over 149 ofc) but to compensate they gave it a +50% self damage vulnerability while active, so suiciding bombing into the sniper, the class who is almost permanently overhealed to >150 would be kinda of dumb

[@kylepangilinan9075]

@@puddin555 based on the description of the rebalanced BASE Jumper, I'm absolutely sure that would be banned in competitive 6s and HL immediately; that much self damage resistance is 2/3rds of the Gunboats bonuses (60% reduction from rocket jumps) combined with the ability to negate fall damage and hover over mid. The marked for death portion seems brutal, but for that many boons? Its hard to pass up that many extra options, assuming the marked for death is only active when the parachute is out. Again, the core idea of the weapon is to hover over an area, and raining down damage while exposing yourself to Heavies and Snipers; Dane cites it as a good change, yet the one format that actually has a case for the weapon's original state being overpowered, still sees it as overpowered. The Caber changes bring the thing back to uselessness in Competitive, which sounds good for keeping it memey in casual and niche at best in competitive, but that 125 threshold is way too important to overlook. If Demos are consistent at stickyjumping to the Sniper and deleting him, the only real counterplay is to have a Medic babysit the Sniper, making games either more boring, or just not using the Caber period, assuming the focus fire is too much for a Demo to consider suicide bombing. The Caber changes go back to my main problem with trickle down balance; what's the point of the changes if the competitive community can always restrict things? They'll never be used in competitive due to being either overtuned, or inferior to stock, so what exactly changes for the Competitive community if the weapon remains banned? The competitive Smash bros scene bans random item spawns and about 80% of the stages for being incompatible for competitive play, yet none have called for the casual side of the game to have things catered to their whims; as far as I've heard, no one is asking Temple or Great Cave Offensive to be made competitively fair and balanced as simply banning them keeps their identity intact for casual players, while also not subjecting competitive players to the utter headache of poorly balanced gameplay. Both changes you mentioned hit both sides of that spectrum, based on my (admittedly theoretical) understanding of Competitive TF2; the BASE Jumper's boons are way too strong for either competitive format, while the Caber is so laughably bad that it would never be used, while also potentially centering the meta around Sniper babysitting even more. This just begs the question, what was the point of all these changes when you could have left the weapons to be absurd and whacky, and just restricted their use in competitive, like the Smash community does? Its what has worked for so long and keeps both communities happy, while not forcing changes that end up being fun for one out of 3 at best, and useless for all 3 at worst.

[@harryunderwood8535]

Dane, while I appreciate the hope you have for no banned weapons, I feel that some weapons will pretty much always be banned purely due to their function. For example, the Scout's Mad Milk or Crit-a-Cola are both mechanically overpowered bc they interfere with standard combat (mini crit dmg, which includes no dmg falloff, and the health leech of the milk is a get out of jail free card). The Quick-Fix is another example, due to how it trumps stock Medi Gun in all but 8 out of 48 seconds of a medic's life, plus means the Roamer becomes a pocket to help them escape. Patches may make them more balanced (e.g, Mark scout for death upon drinking cola, and Milk slows Scout or whatever), but they are more applicable than standard side-grades than they should be, and will continue to be due to their design philosophy and the mechanics they introduce.

[@viket8316]

Competitive players just used one weapon anyways and the same ones why they had to touch them

[@YourFoxFriendYT]

Trickle down economics doesn’t work, do you think this worked?

[@BonelessBacon]

You used the ball pit image from dash-con. 11/10 you get an extra hour in the ball pit

[@seronymus]

[Vietnam flashbacks]

[@ishouldkillmyself]

It's actually astounding just how terribly this video has aged, cant believe dane actually had a take THIS deplorable.

[@SQU1RRELLYTF2]

Shhh don't tell pazer... I totally wasn't trying @ 4:08 xD

[@boomeronet7888]

That's my aim with anyone except heavy and engineer.

[@ruktipp2627]

Vita-saw was just straight up a bad change and will now see practically no use in either format. The old vita-saw was fine if you took into consideration that all classes are available to play and use. Pyro being a particularly powerful counter to Uber with airblast. (Sorta bullshit but whatever.) Now the vita-saw will see no use since the reward of preserving Uber is nowhere near as powerful as just having 25% right now. Especially considering the fact that you have to gather a decent amount of organs to even say the vita-saw was worth it. Competitive balancing and metas are so disconnected from the vast majority of people who play TF2 and I don't want my game balance / experience tailored to fit someone else who doesn't use 70% of the other weapons or sometimes half the classes for that matter.

[@42carlos]

no pyro to counter uber in sixes. the conundrum is that weapons are very hard to ballance for both sixes, highlander and casual at the same time, making competitive hard to get into even without getting into the fact that the game doesn't bother to teach you anything outside of the bare minimum

[@citrus5797]

Old Vita Saw was literally impossible to play around because medic gets free Uber for dying. This is especially problematic if you can't count the exact percent they're at and if both medics end up dying at the same time, since the Medic that's using the Vita Saw automatically has Uber advantage (forcing the other medic to run it as well.) New Vita Saw is just a worst ubersaw that only sees niche use on non-stock mediguns (especially the kritzkrieg.) It's beyond useless and will often harm you more than help. As for how they could fix it, there's no simple answer other than reworking the weapon completely.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

@@citrus5797it was free Uber it was a safety net so you lose 80 instead of 100 of your uber

[@ravebiscuits8721]

Isn't this missing out the situations where an item is shit unless you have high skill, making it underpowered in low skill teirs. Or where an item is hard to play against unless you have high skill, making it balanced among skilled players and unbalanced among lower skill players. Ie a powerful but dodge-able rocket. So I'm not sure that 'trickledown balance' works as a concept although it does sound like it's generally true.

[@billyaepicgamer8642]

Let's take Sniper as a class as an example. He is objectively the most difficult class to pick up. Bad Snipers are a wasted slot on a server. But boy... when the Sniper "gets it", he has a lot of power. If we buffed Sniper because many noobs can't play him, you'll have an unfun experience if you're unlucky enough to be put against a really good Sniper. "It takes skill" is not a valid argument against nerfing a problematic weapon.

[@ravebiscuits8721]

@@billyaepicgamer8642 That's exactly my point, it's really hard to balance things in situations where something, be that an item or a class, is highly skill dependent. Because if you balance it for the low teirs then you make it overpowered in the high teirs, and vice versa. And usually balancing for the high tiers and just letting something be shit for low tier players like you describe is best. But I was thinking particularly about a subsection of that issue, with items or classes who's power is dependent on the skill of the target and not the user. Such as an easy to shoot, but dodgable attack, with very high damage. Which means that if you balance something to make sense among players who are highly skilled at dodging, and are able to avoid much of the damage, then low tier matches the weapon will be far too effective. Which would be one way that trickledown balance wouldn't work.

[@leonardo9259]

@@billyaepicgamer8642 boy oh boy the bazar's bargain is pretty OP once you get past the 6 heads

[@dantespekken3549]

Personally I'd say the first point is really a non-issue, the absence of a weapons because it is too weak does not create an unbalance in the actual match as the weapon is not present. The second thing can be an issue and is something that I think only looking at high level really overlooks. If something is too strong against casuals then casual matches get filled with it, creating frustration in a large part of the players until they either leave or join them. This only further increases frustrations with the remaining bad player base which will quit or join too, creating very monotonous servers. A not too good example I could give is spies is low level play. People don't know how to deal with them and thus they think that they are overpowered, the easiest thing to do when spies annoy you is to go play spy as well, you would be equally overpowered (so not all that much...) and it has the benefit of not having to deal with spies. I think this is part of the reason so many new players flock to spy. (also because they are not good at the game, so they are not good at interacting with their opponent and the least interactive class in low level play is spy since he either one shots or gets one shot)

[@ravebiscuits8721]

@@dantespekken3549 Point 1 is not a game-breaking issue of course (at least in the short term) but it's still an issue with balancing. A game spending time and money adding weapons to a game that are then never used by the majority of players is definitely not a 'non-issue'. If a game did this too much then it'll undoubtedly fail to keep people interested and will collapse.

[@MediArgentum]

There's only 1 thing. Many people are confused by it, and it seems you are too, so let me clarify: Old Vita-Saw stat: keep up to 20% uber upon death. This does NOT mean that you keep 20% of whatever you had. This means that you can keep maximum of 20% of total uber. Which means, if you have vita-saw equipped and you had 5% uber when you died, you will respawn with 5% uber. If you had 13% uber when you died, you will respawn with 13% uber. If you had 20% uber when you died, you will respawn with 20% uber. If you had 25% uber when you died, you will respawn with 20% uber. If you had 73% uber when you died, you will respawn with 20% uber. If you had 100% uber when you died, you will respawn with 20% uber. This mechanic is still the same with new Vita-Saw except the percentage limit is determined by how many organs you have collected, but it is still the percentage of TOTAL uber and NOT of the amount which you had when you died.

[@efgee9873]

Under 20%, back in the days, it was pretty difficult to track the übercharge, while now you can count the number of hits

[@c.aleb6]

I knew I shouldn’t have taken that candy from that uncle in an alley

[@-TPLT]

I've never seen that B.A.S.E. Jumper strafe strategy. I feel kinda bad whenever something gets nerfed or removed, not so much because I'm disappointed with the changes because it's always meant to change with TF2. I'm disappointed because I never get to try out or even witness these wacky shenanigans until after they get patched. Sorta like the Ardanian Soldiers' lines.

[@EnderNecro]

Yeah, it was really fun jumping around with the B.A.S.E Jumper. It allowed for really unortodox jumps. Too bad it's not possible to do those anymore, but you can check some of my videos if you wanna see how it could be used.

[@theempty268]

TPLT Don't.... forget......... *cries *

[@novavirus7497]

I joined in november, so i look at things and go "that looks fun wish i couldve done that"

[@gordistador]

Gosgdarn comp players!

[@Tyneher95]

and no-one even plays it!

[@sicklendhammerstudio]

interesting you draw a comparison to Reaganomics because that didn't work either

[@nb2685]

sicklendhammerstudio Wasnt meant to work the way libs describe it. “wealth trickling down” only came to describe reaganomics by the economically illiterate who did not understand the macro economical workings

[@ColdStorm0]

Dane why aren't you in the TF2 development team?

[@damianandfilms]

crit-a-cola

[@mysoncrumphaseveryinjury3853]

Genji Shimada your answer 0:15

[@guwahavel874]

DrIvanRadosivic Crit A Cola is a fundamentally flawed weapon. The best way to balance it would be to make the scout have to deal damage to fill it up, because currently it can easily be spammed and takes very little skill to earn. Honestly I think it is better for it to be up than op.

[@scoutiano4441]

he's not a game developer, that's why

[@sorbet7216]

Because he would nerf Spy

[@gentlecat7735]

But trickle down balancing will never fix problems on the lower end of your bell curve that isnt an issue in higher levels of play. it cant fix *insert random weapon here* turns mister blind with no ears guy who installed the game 2 minutes ago into someone who is more or less invincible against newer players because there are things that they dont know about or cant abuse to win. Pyro is a pretty good example. if you're viewing it from a high tier competitive standpoint then he is pretty weak and could still use more buffing/tweaking but from a completely new players perspective hes just a instant I don't need to aim to kill people machine with pretty decent move speed and health, and i dont think the solution comes from only viewing it from the more experienced players perspective. It might not be a problem for the competitive player but a VERY bg problem for the newer ones. and saying git gud is not a solution when they give up and start playing a game that cares about their new players instead.

[@juice4613]

GentleCat consider that the lower end of the bell curve is a minority, 2/3 of the player base aren’t in that group, and because they’re new they have a skewed view of what the game is and how it works, so balancing for them isn’t really possible. Personally I learned real quick how to counter pyros, sentries, etc. and from what I’ve seen people become part of the majority pretty fast. The game is easy to pick up (after a few tries) but hard to master

[@gentlecat7735]

I was more trying to say that there are problem with this design philosophy rather than specific things being problems. so if say avarage - low skill players have a specific problem that the higher skill players do not then that will never be adressed if you strictly follow how dane puts it

[@gentlecat7735]

and in the end the people who are the best have played for 1000s of hours (I have done so myself) but it is unreasonable that that is supposed to be a requirement to have a good time playing the game and for you to have a problem free experience. there are things you can do in order to make the experience better for the newer players and not affecting the high levels of play. just like dane explains with his examples for how these new designs doesnt affect the lower levels too much

[@juice4613]

GentleCat if the lower to middle section of the player base have a problem with a weapon and the professional scene does not it is not a balance problem. this system Is about keeping items balanced, you can change items to be more fun without “balancing” them either way, ideally you could change a weapon to be more balanced while ALSO making it fun to use in casual. This is the case with most weapons. Any problems that the average player has with a weapon being over powered can be applied to pro gamers. If the pros find it overpowered then it will get fixed and the system is working as intended. If they don’t find it overpowered than It isn’t overpowered Edit: this video doesn’t address the lower levels, but that doesn’t mean the system highlighted in the video ignores them

[@gentlecat7735]

When you say its not a balance issue, would you say then that different weapons and classes are equally good at all skill levels? and would you also say that increasing/reducing the skill floor for something is not rebalancing it? I'd argue that the different tiers of players have a differing meta game as to which weapons are good and which weapons are bad. Take the sapper for instance. ask any pubber, even the best ones. 99,99% would say the the normal sapper totally outclasses the red tape recorder and would probably like it to be buffed so it at least gets a use, since destroying sentries with a red tape is about as useless as throwing mad milk at it. IE they have a balancing problem because one is clearly better when there is no one that you can trust to help you take down a sentry. But pros would argue the opposite. because the sapper is used primarily for stunning the sentry so the rest of the team can kill it since any team worth its salt can remove a sapper easily. but with the red tape, even if you destroy the sapper it was still stunned (just the same as with a regular sapper) but it might also be a lvl 2 or even level 1 after a failed push making it pretty much a straight upgrade. With this trickle down philosophy we would then straight up nerf the red tape becayse you listen to what the pros have to say, you can't "keep it balanced in pubs" because its already much much weaker than the regular sapper in pubs. and after the fact it would be even more useless than it was before (even if its a minimal change for pubbers). But if we look at it from both perspectives we can see that rather than having one problem, we actually have two. one where its too weak and one where its too strong, and one where its too weak. then we can come up with a solution that satifies both sides rather than nerfing something so that it will be balanced at the highest tier and then pretending like its the best thing for all skill levels

[@chip2508]

7:18 Wow, that healer has got an interesting name.

[@genroynoisis6980]

*Ahem* The ambassador didn't deserve such a bad nerf. *sees pitchforks* well nobody complained about it for like 2 millenia... *sees even more pitchforks* I'll just get out now.

[@sajurf]

Thank you. Someone with a memory of over 3 seconds.

[@router_BasedUser]

~~~~~~~~~~~∈

[@viccyyboii3308]

Yes, people did complain about it alot. And it deserved a nerf, a big one.

[@sajurf]

Bilmo It was worse than stock at most ranges and was considered worse than stock. In fact many people said it needed to be buffed.

[@Waskomsause]

A lot of people I've talked to said it was good to nerf it, stock was always better and yet the Amby got ALL the attention because it was a "skill" based weapon. Spy isn't a sniper, but people still played him like one with the DR and Spycicle to combo with the Amby. I'd say just reverse the current nerf and give it another nerf, such as a maximum distance for it to crit from, or lower BODYSHOT damage instead of just lower damage in general, perhaps 40% less bodyshot damage and give it a flat 100 headshot damage.

[@soggycheeseball4629]

I don't care about balancing that much, but i want the old panic attack back.

[@gordistador]

And caber

[@robloxtntad]

I agree completely that the weapons in TF2 need to be balanced for higher levels of play. However, This video should have existed before Jungle Inferno because the competitive community did an awful job on demonstrating the problems with the BASE Jumper. Saying "you don't play comp you wouldn't understand" is like telling a coal miner that he wouldn't understand the tech industry. The community just won't comply if you double down on them. It's best to show instead of tell because it avoids leaving the "so what?" question unanswered.

[@Greaner]

Tntad yes

[@arontimes5042]

This, so much. It's gotten to the point that any posts in /r/tf2/ (and other TF2 forums) about comp TF2 get ignored due to their bad reputation. Before I took a break from Reddit, there was a significant number of regulars who stayed the hell away from any comp-related threads, burying those threads due to lack of exposure (low views + low votes = they don't make it to the front page). It is infuriating because in the age of the Internet, one could simply pre-type a FAQ to explain these things to non-comp players. Instead, most of them use the excuse that we plebs couldn't possibly understand the way they play.

[@isaacargesmith8217]

There was one vidoe that does try to explain it that kinda blew up but even then it wasn't the best at explaining it and focused more on the movement part that was so broken about the weapon and how you could cover so much ground but didnt realy show it well or explain it well enough.

[@robloxtntad]

Aron Times The root cause for this is the fact that /r/tf2 is treating competitive tf2 like a cult where they shun anyone who raises any eyebrows. It's okay to be skeptical on anything balance related and ignoring those questions is an extremely unhealthy mindset for any community. If you remember Uncle Dane's worshiping KZbinr's video, it should also be said that it has a negative impact on any platform. I think claims should be treated as wrong until proven right. I doubt the tf team would post a demonstration video in their explanations, but the ones making the claim are required to eliminate any reasonable doubt. "He said", "she said", or even "I said" arguments are not good enough.

[@abczfj1691]

If you want good explanations look up teamfortress.tv, As once an outsider of the comp community, this site answered all my questions about why certain weapons are deemed OP. Honestly the best website to go to for comp tf2, /r/tf2 isn't completely useless but is usually filled with players that aren't exactly the best or represent the true tf2 comp community. While teamfortress.tv has where are the pros and the majority of users in tf2 comp (for 6s at least) In terms of demonstration I guess people figured that just stating the problem would be good enough for people to understand. But you are right, Showing off cases is the best to show why a weapon is/was deemed, OP, Expliotable, or unfun in general

[@parasocks1613]

3:14 that “ha!” Almost made me spit out my milk xD

[@Tr0lliPop]

"sometimes literally- " HOH"

[@ofekzuckerman3892]

When i left ow there was a problem, the pro players knew how to counter bastion and so he was pretty much useless (so he should get a buff) But the new players didnt know how to react to a bastion, and to them it wad OP (so he should get a nerf) but blizzard didnt know how to help and what you said in this video didnt make a lot of sense

[@xXMemelord]

Ofek Zuckerman well thats overwatch, where a single character is good but not good enough to be viable, because people arent shit anymore at higher levels of any game even. tf2 isnt really like that at all, there isnt one single class with certain equips that i cant handle.

[@catrielmarignaclionti4518]

@@xXMemelord "that I cant handle" plhog in pubs is completly op, nobody watches flanks and nobody can hit shit, I can deal with it, but not my teammates, in high level play, yeah, sure, just shoot a rocket up his ass.

[@Lucy_Ferrr]

He forgot to mention the part where reganomics became an enormous dumpster fire shortly after its implementation

[@vinnisvidya]

something something eat the rich

[@toasterr4238]

I'd hate to be political, but Chicago school/Reaganomics has almost never worked in the U.S. It makes sense in theory, except that it *can* be abused by the same people who are able to implement it (the powerful). Keynesian has usually worked, from early-mid 20th century to Obama era. Source: econ major sorry for hijacking a tf2 vid, but econ education is important for everyone :D

[@imptooth]

I think he only intended to draw parallels to the philosophy of concept rather than how it actually works, lol. Actual trickle-down economics is undoubtedly ass since it makes the richer get rich and the poor poorer, but in regards to videogame balance? It makes sense, at least imo

[@attackfighter]

@@imptooth Revelation: the economy is a positive-sum game. When a businessman makes a successful investment, he's expanding production or developing new technology or somesuch (at least some of the time). I don't know how Reaganomics was sold to the public, but if there's a benefit in reducing taxes for the rich it is so that they will have more money to invest. The alternative is taxing their money to fund social programs for mainly the middle-class through a dysfunctional bureaucracy. That is vitriolic, sorry; I cannot help myself. Note: I am poor.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

@gigi nonsense. For videogames, it will make the good players better and the poor players worse.

[@ConSolo29]

is that the dashcon ballpit

[@KeywordTypo]

Yes

[@emilygordbort7300]

Can't you just smell the musty odor of a free hour in a pool of technicolor balls?

[@pinkhoney694]

Internet historian?

[@ashenveil6759]

The B.A.S.E. Jumper was nerfed far too much. It used to be viable for a professional-level players and frustrating for below-average players when faced with them in a pub. Now it's viable to no one and basically dead weight on the game since nobody uses it. Instead of balancing around pubstomping, the TF team should make sure that weapons can be used two different effects depending on skill level.

[@AshnSilvercorp]

I agree. I liked it's advanced level of play you could use it for. Now it's just a glorified "I'm an air target!" tool. The best they can do is allow redeploy so you get some level of control back. They could even add a 0.25-0.5 second cool down between deployment status change, giving it some consistency.

[@TrickyRover]

The no re-deploy nerf was justified. The air control nerf was kinda harsh IMO... and its still banned in 6s. Let that sink in.

[@demophone9580]

TurboTails - I don't get why its still banned. I saw a post on the December whitelist changes where someone said that its still banned because it lets Soldiers spam out rocket like crazy and safely hover above enemies from a distance. If that's the reasoning, the weapon will need a rework or it will never be unbanned.

[@Rodfaj90]

I think people don't like comp overall because they seem "too elitist". They always ban weapons because they don't appear to understand them (on a casual perspective), and the current meta doesn't really favour the other classes who are left behind. That and the comp community in itself just refuses to change its meta to accommodate for players that might not be interested in playing Soldier, Scout or Demo (who plays Medic?). They also take their sweet time updating the whitelist for some unknown reason.

[@proxy4620]

Agreed, I will never play on competitive no matter how good I get at the game or when I want to play seriously.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Yeah, why should the game be balanced around a small subset of the community that the majority of players either don't know about or hate the guts of?

[@lord6074]

Thank you for ruining TF2

[@GORTRON_THE_DESTROYER]

lmao not having devs FOR SIX YEARS is probably the issue

[@reason9262]

​@@GORTRON_THE_DESTROYERyeah and when we actually did have devs, comp-brained individuals such as dane were the ones informing the horrendous balance changes and overall gameplay changes (casual mode) that we got in the last few years of it's dev cycle.

[@BobStuntsville]

Love the name in 7:20

[@purplehaze2358]

Dead ringer: *Wasn’t balanced after nerfs* Valve: Hello, darkness, my old friend. I’ve come to nerf you again.

[@bigjoe4770]

Good it was

[@eh2587]

@Brian Treves Dead ringer can be pretty easily detected if you can do math

[@st33lbiscuit28]

It's interesting though how OW prioritised ability balance around top level players + designed new heroes for that level of play and ended up torpedoeing the game (ofc more factors at hand, but definitely one of the main issues). Trickle down balance was definitely the wrong approach there

[@Dontreadthis0]

they did not actually. as an avid ow player who was into the comp scene I could argue that they didn't balance around high end play ENOUGH. the real 2 reasons the game got torpeod was because when something was found to be broken(especially in regards to very easy to get value out of, think of brig where average players onetricked the hero to GM, top 2%ish percent of ranked players) they took forever to change it. The other being that they tried to force every hero to be an equal pickrate/effectiveness , when that just wasn't a good idea. think about how hellish it would be if spy was an equally good choice as scout or soldier? I don't think trickle down balance is as bad as people here say it is. I think there is some merit to balancing around the best players because they are most prone to break your game. That being said the differing formats for the game some weapons are probably going to be banned if they are to retain any effectiveness in casual 12v12

[@aestheticsock8772]

​@@Dontreadthis0 Exactly right. They're doing the same thing again now with OW2 where they refuse to nerf Sojourn or Kiriko to the point where they aren't just an immediate must-pick in high level play due to their lower winrates in the metal ranks, and it's just ruining the game all over again. Those two heroes are each respectively worse in lower ranks due to the lower mechanical skill of said ranks (for Sojourn) and the slower uptake on learning new heroes (for Kiriko). Both of those heroes have unequivocally been S+ heroes in the meta in high ranked play since release due to their extreme value when played by competent players, especially with the value their ults bring to the table in team-based play like Contenders and OWL. Blizzard appears to be further causing this issue by buffing Ramattra prior to his release in Comp due to player sentiment that he was weak compared to meta tanks like Orisa and Roadhog, yet when coordinated players in Contenders started playing he actually saw playtime to the surprise of the community. Then Team 4 decided to buff Ram anyways with a 20% speed boost during his ult and nemesis form, which when paired with a Lucio speed boost makes him nigh unkitable during his unending ult. Absolute buffoonery from the team at Overwatch, and even casual players are tired of the meta that has formed due to the dev team's insistence on balancing around casuals since the start of Overwatch 2 and even before back during the GOATS/Double Shield eras of OW1.

[@Dontreadthis0]

@@aestheticsock8772 I think there complete lack of understanding was the most obvious with the ana buff. The character didnt need a buff, she was still very good its just that kiriko countered her (no hard counters btw LOL). so instead of nerfing kiriko more they buffed ana in an attempt to compensate when that will clearly not actually help. what it will do is slightly increase the statistics of the hero like her pickrate and winrate which is what they are actually attempting to balance off of instead of understanding how the game works. because if they had half a fucking braincell they would realize that problem to ana being bad is kiriko and nerf her instead.

[@Archimo]

Now my big question how would this work to make something balanced thats underpowered. Seeing as there's quite some classes and/or weapon options that could use a boost.

[@abczfj1691]

short answer, give it some buffs and test it. Also some weapons ultimately are just inherently flawed to the point that nothing can save it (sun on the stick, carbiner's cleaner, etc.) but honestly some weapons being a challenge to use make that weapon fun to use. ultimately only buff a weapon if it also would add a new element to the game

[@SnivyTries]

How to buff the Amputator?

[@pandemonium2536]

The cleaners isnt to flawed to fix, they could change the mini crit on activation gimmick to something else such as, idk, when activated gain a massive increase in fire rate and reload rate, and make it rage is gained only through headshots, essentially making it a defensive tool for good snipers to defend themselves against someone running up on them....or to just get it loaded up then go rambo style like a moron. As for the sun on a stick...yeah its pretty crap but maybe they could change it to allow scout to take less fire damage and do increased damage while active but when active you lose the ability to double jump or somethin.

[@pandemonium2536]

I've got an idea, make it so that right clicking with it at full uber allows you to use 25% of your uber to release a sort of large healing shockwave, maybe about 75 hp per blast or something. Or just make the healing increase passive and ignore ramp up

[@abczfj1691]

for the cleaner's carbine I meant to include the smg as well, it is more effective to just noscope bodyshot someone rather then switch to your smg and have to hit 4 - 5 bullets or more on that thing. and the sun on the stick would still be a bad alternative since a meatshot would do more damage and other melees would have better ultities over the sun on a stick (includes the bat as well being just bad).

[@SpectreSkirt]

something i've always found funny is that everyone says "nobody could tell how much uber a vitasaw medic got back on death" even though the answer would be easily obtainable. everyone already tracks medic uber and calls out when a medic dies. you'd just be able to do a quick calculation and figure out how much they'll have when they're respawned. all comp players confirmed cannot do math

[@citrus5797]

This isn't reliable! While, yes, uber tracking is very common at high levels of play, this does NOT always account for things such crossbows and uber builds. You only know for sure if you drop a Medic with full uber, because he'll be starting with a flat 20% In addition to this, if both medics die and one of them is using the Vita Saw, then the Vita Saw player always has uber advantage, which is really dumb. Ubersaw, on the other hand, only gives you that extra uber on hit (which is extremely risky) and doesn't force a medic to run it to compensate (so they can run the Solemn Vow if they want to.) Old Vita Saw was broken and stupid and impossible to play around, any weapon that rewards you for dying is just bad game design.

[@hmmm2359]

7:21 don’t go to the link... don’t go to the link.. Don’t go to the link... GODDAMMIT RICKROLL

[@matz8917]

The Vita-Saw sucks now, tho There's literally no reason to equip it Why would I want to lower my health by 10 and put myself in danger just to get a bonus when I die, when I can just equip the Übersaw and gain Über *now* and survive?

[@guffingtonreal]

The intro was like "I've snorted cleaning products"

[@buns9022]

"should draw comparison to how it SHOULD work in TF2" *So it wouldn't work at all, and instead would make everyone else's job harder.*

[@AvastAntiPony9445]

Man, this really aged like fine milk.

[@PlafonFan]

Valve: nerfs a weapon toground so competetive player be happy. Competetive players: keeps the weapon banned.

[@juno9486]

Hey! I just wanted to say that while I think this is all mostly true, I think a pretty nice example of when it's not true can be seen in Moira's main attack in Overwatch. For high levels of play, it's consistent yet low damage attack that is really only good for rehealing her healing powers. But in low levels of play, it's consistent yet low damage, but it also self heals her consistently. When your enemies are players can't aim as well, abilities that are so consistent no matter the skill level are way better than ones that aren't. Same reason why Mercy can be easy and useful in low levels of play, but not high. I agree with you for the most part, but I also think it's important to take into account how the weapons are used in general.

[@pique3124]

Trickle down economics is woodoo. Tax cuts for the rich just make them wealthier, and make the poor poorer

[@TheHeadHunter1000]

Never represented properly either. A single wine glass for the rich... HA. More like a bathtub for the rich. And a cracked shot glass for the poor. The crack is the amount taxes are taken out from.

[@juice4613]

FallingGiraffe ok but he specifically said that he wasn’t getting political in the video so why are you saying this? Unless your implying that because trickle down economics is bad that means that trickle down balancing is bad, but he also said that the two concepts aren’t really even that similar anyways. Which is true.

[@gordistador]

How does it make the "poor" poorer?

[@pique3124]

MAsterOplayer You do understand that when taxes are cut for the wealthy owner class, the middle class and the poor have to make up for it, right? At the same time as you increase a CEO's bank account, a single mother in Vermont can't keep the lights on. In what world does that make any sense?

[@gordistador]

FallingGiraffe They dont do that, if someone gets richer others dont get poorer. Thats just ridiculous communist conspiracy.

[@Omeg1]

This applies ok other games but in tf2 12v12 and 6v6/9v9 are completely different formats plus balance and fun are 2 different things

[@cheezeebutter452]

My problem with balancing weapons towards comp TF2 is that 6's is what is widely regarded in the comp scene as "the comp version of TF2" and in my opinion balancing a game that is intended for 12v12's around 6's is so not the answer. certain classes are already stronger or weaker on the basis that 6 players a team limits what the situational classes can actually do and therefore exacerbates the classes that are good in just about any situation. Balance the weapons around 12v12's not comp play.

[@Rex_The_Mouse]

Trickle down economics doesn't work and neither will this. Anyone can find exploits, not just the competitive scene.

[@chrisdawson1776]

❄️

[@Passance]

You wanna see a perfect example of this done wrong? Symmetra.

[@Ethan11892]

1:05 Ganondorf in Smash Ultimate: *Are you sure about that*

[@wahbucket501]

Thank you for talking about Reaganomics for like 30 seconds you helped me write a paper lmfao

[@Bitter-Wounds]

Uncle dane out here teaching people to better themselves while pablo.gonzales2009 is still building on last.

[@thereisnoplanb139]

2005

[@wailmerpail]

dammit who's video was that from I forgot?

[@Kranich2008]

Remember when valve cared? That shure Was fun.

[@khaniage]

how about a situation where its the opposite? when you have a weapon that is totally balanced in the hands of good players but can seem op when used against orse players. I can't think of an example in TF2 but Bastion in the early days of Overwatch was really powerful if you couldn't deal with him. This meant that in low levels of play he was extremely powerful whereas in higher levels of play he was rarely seen as most people knew how to counter him. In this case wouldn't the devs have to balance with the lower levels of play in mind?

[@emilygordbort7300]

Tommy Gruvich. Or, better yet, the Vaccinator. If you balance for the competitive scene first and foremost, you'll easily run into situations where something is perfectly fine in Competitive play, but completely overpowered in Casual play.

[@jjhii4964]

Mfw comparing the tf team with the tumblr ball pit

[@MoonPatch]

One thing that I don't think is solved by trickle down balance is crutches, since naturally those aren't overpowered in high level play but ARE overpowered on the low and sometimes on the average parts of the bell curve Balancing for the top is a fine idea, just don't neglect to consider the implications on the bottom instead of just appealing to high level players and hoping things work out At least that's my take on it, I'm not exactly a game developer XD

[@kartupelitish1903]

Reagan sitting in hell waiting for heaven to trickle down on him:

[@syn3rax]

so, this theory is all well and good, but it breaks down pretty quickly I feel. If you look at Overwatch (because of course we are), where you have characters with uneaven skill deltas (character A is much more powerful in the hands of someone skilled than character B) all of a sudden buffing or nerfing a character to make them viable/not broken in top tier makes them broken in every tier below. The classic example is Symmetra: When they reworked her to be more interesting, they buffed her beam range, which made her perfectly balanced at high tier, but completely busted below because she's a character that doesn't have to aim and has a generally low skill delta. There's a similar issue with the flamethrower in TF2: brainless idiots walking forward with the mouse held down in mid-tier pubs get far more kills than they have any business getting for the amount of skill they're putting into the game.

[@fatjesus5840]

I agree, I would really like to see heavy getting passive a fire resistance as hes supposed to be pyros direct counter but seems to lose in 1v1s far too much

[@vaark14]

Exactly, Uncle Dane talks about balancing around competitive play and finding compromises between the average and competitive player. In practice it's a lot harder to find that compromise. The reality is that game developers balance around their intentions and allow the weapon choices and play styles to be choosen dynamically. If they mean to make the game fun, the balance changes are generally different to if they were balancing for competition. Nerfing one weapon or buffing another leads to unexpected buffs or nerfs in other weapons. It's impossible to balance such a complex game, but if you balance around what you intend, then generally people will make the most out of it.

[@ludwigiapilosa508]

? Brainless w+m1 pyros are not difficult to handle. You don't get full afterburn without sustained flame contact now so it's not nearly as bad as it was.

[@OmariDouglas]

Actually join the discord tho. The meme channel is SUPER active

[@Just.Kidding]

it's funny cuz at the HIGHEST highest level of play, _only_ default loadouts are used.

[@Fatsaver]

I mean they ban everything that isn't stock so can you blame them? lmfao.

[@HotelMarioMD]

Interesting observation as to how the TF Team is releasing updates / balance patches, but do they take these changes from observations in the 6v6 format (Soldier, Demo, Medic Scout) or is it primarily 9v9 that is often observed (one class per player)? (Not to much of an expert how comp / leagues work) but are there any leagues without a weapon ban list / minimal ban list that the TF Team uses to test said buffs / nerfs accordingly?

[@sem6747]

At the moment they balance to both, the razorback nerf was primarily for 9v9, while other weapons such as the GRU were really broken in 6v6. The comp team however has chosesn 6v6 to be the official comp gamemode so in the future i can imagine that they will start balancing more to their own gamemode instead of the community competitive gamemodes. comp.tf/wiki/6v6_Global_Whitelist This is the primary whitelist that almost all of the 6v6 leagues use at the moment. A lot of weapons have gotten unbanned recently since JI and the amount of bans has shrunk a lot since three years ago. I would also have to add that about 30% of the weapons on that list are not banned for being too strong but because there are gamebreaking buggs involving them so if the tf2 team would fix that they would get unbanned soon. I can imagine the tf2 team taking a lot inspiration from that whitelist because it contains the most broken/overpowered weapons in the game right now and in the last update a lot of weapons that where banned got properly nerfed so they became unbanned.

[@tomato_tom]

+Sem that whitelist dropdown menu has has not been updated. Recently the global whitelist was updated and you can see it in the December Global Whitelist update on TFTV, only a few changes but makes a difference whitelist.tf/competitive_6v6

[@Astro939]

Basically, if a community cries a lot, valve notices. 9v9 players have been crying about razorback (which doesnt affect 6s at all) so it got nerfed. 6s players cried about the parachute because it affects 6s more (2 soldiers, plus soldier is a much higher impact class in 6s than it is in HL) so it got nerfed. You get the point As far as weapon ban lists (called whitelists) - leagues decide them based on community feedback, top player feedback, internal meetings, forum discussions and theorycrafting as well as common sense. ETF2L (the european league that covers both 6s and hl) also has preseason cups to test new maps/whitelists to decide what to use in the actual season

[@reason9262]

The Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming.

[@gangsterwangsterman8417]

amen

[@Idothinkysaurus]

I made a joke about it being like Trickle-Down Economics. BUT YOU MADE IT IN THE VIDEO! The reference was real.

[@theotv5522]

I'll agree balancing weapons in TF2 is extremely hard. In order to keep both pros and newbies happy is no easy task. A great example of this is the old YER where ppl who don't play spy much neglect to use this powerful knife cuz of the no disguise penalty while pro spies seems to get kills around every corner. This "trickle-down balance" should suffice for now but we should remember TF2 is mainly played for fun. Comp is pretty much dead due to the experience gap (it's impossible to get a comp game in less than 10 mins for me). I think balancing around pub isn't all that bad cuz 80-90% of TF2 players play pub or an alternative game mode like VSH, DR or FF anyway. My point is, if we keep pressing this game to be comp, soon we'll and up like LOL or OW where "it's fun for the first 2 mins until somebody fucks up and it becomes a tryhard fest". Don't get me wrong, I'm all about balancing but I've seen games like LOL where they "rework" their game so much it's so hard to have fun anymore.

[@dorukayhanwastaken]

A fourth case of balancing that creates chaos in a competitive setting but doesn't matter in pubs/Casual/whatever: the Ambassador nerf. Before Jungle Inferno, the Amby basically let skilled Spies play like Snipers, picking off people across the map - now you have to actually infiltrate the enemy lines to make use of the extra headshot damage. - Effect on competitive? Valve basically took the Spy meta and drove it into oblivion. - Effect on Casual? None. Casual Spies that can land Amby headshots are a rare sight anyway, even among the subset that wears the most stylish/expensive Charmer's Chapeaus out there.

[@tuna3461]

Only problem with this whole idea is just how different 6s is from casual. Like with the quick fix which is almost always banned, how the fuck do you balance it for 6s without making it useless? The faster healing is much more impactful there than in casual since there’s just more people to shoot your pocket there, and more people for you to heal. This is probably a good idea if they balance for highlander or something though.

[@PokefreakofBACON]

While I agree with everything you said in the video (pretty much), calling it "trickle-down balance" does actually point out one of the biggest flaws with this sort of system: If you take into account ONLY the highest level of player, you're going to make the game more fun for high level players, and more balanced for everyone, sure. You're not necessarily making the game more fun for low/mid level players, though. It also makes the high-level players able to basically control the entire game to be what they want it to be. In theory, that's not a problem. They know the game best, so their opinions will make the game better, right? Except that's not necessarily true. A lot of high-level players want every weapon to be viable and useful. Now take into account a weapon like the hot hand. The weapon is a piece of shit garbage weapon, but that's the point. It's a joke. Stuff like the hot hand is part of what makes TF2 fun (read: stupid shit.) Now imagine if some high level players decided that the hot hand should be stronger, so it's on par with other pyro weapons. Sure, it's more useful now, but it ruins the whole "I'm giving up my melee slot to be a memey shitlord and slap you." It's now "This weapon is supposed to be funny, but I'm actually using it as a serious weapon." That's dumb. No one that plays this game casually wants that. (Note: This doesn't seem to be a thing that will happen, but it's an exaggeration to explain my point.) Though, what the TF2 team is doing seems to be a pretty good balance to prevent stuff like that from happening, because they're not just taking B4nny's opinion and shoving it into the game. I do think high-level players are best to ask what weapons/classes are OP/UP/Whatever, but asking them to do the balancing for them is a shitty idea. (They're not doing that, thank the lord.) Sometimes a weapon being a little underpowered is a good thing.

[@laurenf.7922]

I would have agreed with you on this but if that was the case a certain heavy primary wouldn't be allowed in comp, I mean they are viable and fun.

[@TKsh1]

I agree on that. Higher skilled players opinions should be more considerated that your average F2P one, but that doesn't mean they are 100% right on everything.

[@conservative9951]

Actual game balance > dumb stale joke

[@PokefreakofBACON]

Fun > Balance

[@DBArtsCreators]

Problem is that the Meme Hand isn't fun to use either, since it is so shit at doing anything in combat. Compare it to the other Meme weapons in the game - Holiday Punch, Disciplinary Action, Jarate, Jumper Weapons. Each of these (even the Holiday Punch) is useful to some extent, despite being meme-ish - hell, the DA and Jarate are seen as great options to use, possibly to the point of being too strong. This does not stop them from being fun meme's. The Hot Hand should be similar - not too powerful or even combat-related, but having some use beyond simply 'memeing', which grew stale after only a couple weeks.

[@walrusninja3581]

1:30 trickle down economics was actually used by Herbert Hoover in the 1920s. It wasn't successful, and he was regarded as terrible because he didn't factor in a lot of things.

[@staryoshi06]

5:40 I always overheal snipers lol, infact it pisses me off when they use the razorback because it makes me feel unfullfilled.

[@treese_]

I've always liked this video, especially for its tone. The music is super laid back and subdued, the VO is quieter and more "librarian-like" than usual, and the pacing is much more explanatory and scientific your typical videos. It's always had such a unique vibe to it that I wish was more prevalent in your content.

[@matejsramek3195]

Pornhub user roto... the MVP Medic

[@shader1xderp778]

now how does this cause class inequality

[@damsen978]

1:08 Yes, even if that means removing the one thing that makes it fun. Like the Sandman, it's the only stun from the game so it doesn't hurt to have it. Now nerfed for the sake of competitive and nobody uses it anymore, not the pros, and not even the people from pubs. As you said Dane, it's not that simple. Couldn't Valve made a convar like they did with tuning random crits and fixed bullet spread to tune the weapons as well? Whether be for casual or competitive. That wouldn't mean you'll have to re-learn the weapons because their use would be the same. Like the old ambassador to the current one, or like the sandman. Slow effect on competitive, stun effect on casual.

[@maozedong69420]

I wouldn't consider the stun to be the most impactful thing that was removed but rather it was the guillotine crit vs stunned players that have the most impact upon removal. I think that if they added the ability to crit vs slowed enemy then i think the sandman guillotine combo might be a little bit balanced as the other player have a chance to dodge.

[@damsen978]

@@maozedong69420 The combo was horrible. The stun alone was fine, but not the damn crit that would even leave a Heavy to around 50 hp. Not even a nerfed version is fun to fight against, the stun is annoying enough for players that cried about them.