does "the aesthetic" hurt actual alt subcultures?

[@anthropomorphicpeanut6160]

Imo everyone can wear whatever they want to but they shouldn't call themselves part of the subculture just by following the aesthetic. I also think people in the subculture don't have to necessarily wear the clothes associated with it (grunge is a great example: if you already have clothes, just keep wearing them instead of buying the consumerist shein version you talk about in the video). But that's coming from someone who isn't part of any subculture and just wears whatever my older sister doesn't want anymore so...

[@thyop89]

I mean, grunge isn't even a subculture, it was a very brief movement that only existed in Seattle, WA between late 80s to mid 90s and even some members of the movement deny that it ever existed. Grunge was never a fashion subculture, It's very existence was defined by anti-fashion. The attempt to commercialise grunge is what killed it.

[@charliephipps8349]

⁠@@thyop89 a sub genre of rock that has a culture around it isn’t a subculture ???? won’t even get started on the “anti fashion”

[@veerymrappy]

"Let's dance Put on your red shoes and dance" ... and screw the rest? :p that song by david bowie heh :) i wrote more about the dance theme in another post on a it similar video somewhere, it does feel important. and the red shoes reference is something on its own too. a very unique twist around an old fable by a danish author hans christian andersen, a very conservative christian by our standards i guess :p but still always so deeply compasionate. i have never been religious or anything, and dogmatic organized religions are one of most harmful human tools ever. but read his stories as that weirdo kid a lot and all over again and was alwyas bursting in cry at the very darkest moments, just over how touching his compassion was. it was so cathartic and most likely the only lost innocence i ever really had, because otherwise even kids are rarely innocent :)

[@SLG-91]

This is an ironic thing, at least here in Europe... because second-hand clothing has been capitalized under the name of vintage and is very expensive, while in the horrible fast fashion brands that are destroying the planet, the clothes are very cheap

[@stellarkat4657]

Incredibly sad indeed

[@jagoda3714]

Western Europeans speak for yourselves, Slavs still got the good thrift shops

[@wildernessisland2573]

​@@jagoda3714 i would be careful about announcing that to the world, you might find your thrift stores picked over one day

[@thisuserdoesntexist780]

THANK YOU for saying this. i couldnt agree more. it annoys me so much when someone gets all of their clothes from dolls kill and then calls themselves "gOth" or "pUnK" while knowing absolutely nothing about the culture itself. also, i luv your makeup

[@posergrave]

Dollskill is the WORST, they have cute clothes too 😭😭 but that brand ain't goth or punk. And ty

[@thisuserdoesntexist780]

@@posergrave np

[@sssugarquartzzz]

I’d use sites like dolls kill for inspo on outfits to put together or make myself rather than buy from them

[@baileymoran8585]

The problem isn’t people wearing music based subcultures as fashion in a photoshoot. It’s that people don’t realize the music expressed values, and that was the core. The people in these scenes are often there because the music helped them deal with feeling like an outsider, or living in a world that holds values they think suck. Normies are used to the mainstream and getting a pass for being rude, as long as they are pretty, or wearing a cute outfit, or being popular. I did not know how many trendy people love to just touch people’s hair or clothing without asking, or even introduce themselves. When you say ‘woh, thanks but please don’t just sneak up and grab my hair like that,’ they are usually shocked and offended. Some giggle and say ‘oh it’s just me. It’s fine’ like you know them, or should be honored they are touching you. They go to goth/punk/alt bars and ask ‘can you put on (insert top 40 music),’ and get mad when the bar says ‘I mean, I can play a song for you but we don’t let the customers pick the music all night because then everyone else is gonna get annoyed and want their music played,’ they will say something like ‘nobody even likes whatever this shit even is,’ and it’s actually a very well known goth band that most the regulars like. If they aren’t favored over people who are in the subculture they tend to get mad, be extremely rude, and say things like ‘why do you people hate attractive people?! You’re so rude to me just because I’m pretty!’ I work at an alt-friendly bar, and this happens at least once a week with some aspiring influencer who’s just there because ‘this bar is literally my aesthetic.’ I don’t care if it’s just a costume to people. It’s weird to represent yourself inaccurately, but it’s not the end of the world for me. But usually people who are actually in these subcultures have had bad experiences with the type of people who reduce it to fashion, or ‘aesthetic,’ which is just fashion you care too much about. They meet guys who will buy $150 worth of blackcraft just so they can try to get goth women to date them, and get mad at her that the fashion wasn’t enough and he ‘wasted’ that money. They meet girls who complain about metal being played at an event called ‘death metal jukebox night’ and tell other metalheads they don’t look as good in a leather jacked as them, so they should just find a new scene. They get touched without asking or warning, get told their DIY jacket ‘looks cheap… like, did you make it yourself’ in a rude tone, at punk shows, by people who literally don’t even know that DIY is a big part of punk culture. So don’t expect people to be like ‘oh, well you like the fashion and know nothing about us as people, but that doesn’t matter because you look totally cool and you have a lot of social media followers. That makes you matter more than my friends in this scene!’ We will also give you music suggestions. Not because you have to stop liking what you like, but because these bands showcase the core values of the scene and and we don’t want someone in these spaces who might have some really questionable values and ideologies, but just thinks the clothes look good on them. You are also gonna meet a lot of people who just don’t like you because you based your whole subculture identity around fashion, and that seems shallow. Not everyone has to like shallow people, especially in scenes that reject an emphasis on shallow values. If you come in wearing the most trendy, basic thing you can find but have a humble, genuinely interested and respectful attitude though, we will be nicer than if you act like Regina George in the best alt costume on the planet.

[@KaiDecadence]

This was perfectly said. It's mainly that these particular people treat an actual music scene like a novelty side show and/or fashion circle that is based on nothing but fashion and it's just annoying to those within these respective scenes who love the music of the respected scene and how the music helped get us through hard times and meet like-minded people without the fear of being "weird". As someone hwo is into the goth scene and has bee nfor since 2008/2009, I get very bewildered when I see self-proclaimed goths admit that they don't "feel goth enough" and when you ask them why they feel that way, it always circles to not having things like Killstar or blackcraft clothing and it's like, those things aren't "goth" to begin with. Sure you can use some of the clothing and mold them into a goth-like style with the right stylizing but at the end of the dy, it's not a "goth" brand (if they were, where is the goth band memorabilia?) and more important, the scene is not about fashion, it's about music. I've even been asked every now and then if I ever felt "not goth enough" and when I would tell them that I wasn't, they'd seem surprised. I just remember how I got into the scene which was exploring the music and actually enjoying what I was hearing. Sure I developed a look but it was not something I preoccupied myself with too heavily and put simply, I've run into actual goths aka people who listen to the music who prefer dressing comfortably and not all decked out vs those who did the whole nine yards and weren't all that into the music at all (and then drop it after a year or two and move on to the next trend). So yeah, if one wants to dress "punk" or "goth" "emo" for a costume, so be it but just don't misrepresent the scenes that you're dressing up as for a night and at least do some surface-level research so you're at least informed that our scenes are not just some costume niche.

[@supervixenxiii]

I agree with this

[@Obituarybunny]

It’s weird. There’s so many youtube videos these days titled things like “ how to have a goth aesthetic “ . The culture behind music helps form some of your beliefs and even character traits. Although those hippies are grandparents now & don’t wear what they used to, you can recognize that “ hippie spirit “ (😂) when they speak . It used to be a fun journey to find your style . as you grew up the music you liked would lead you into other sub genres - when your music taste and beliefs evolved it reflected in your style and eventually you’d reach “ your look”. It sadly feels like tiktok teens are trying to skip all of the “ find yourself “ stages

[@kyupiangel90]

In the internet era, where all the info is available at all times, and all you see written everywhere is "Talk about yourself!" But you really don't know who the feck you are, you really FEEL IN YOUR BODY the fecking RUSH to bloody know who the hell you are… I'm a gen z myself, and i don't know who i am (for a very different reason tho, i had D.I.D. since 15 y.o. because of a deep emotional trauma), but i'm still, at 24, trying to find myself in all of those confusion and amalgamation of info and cool stuff i love that the world is made out of, like a little nervous bunny walking on a tight rope right above a fecking tornado. I TOTALLY understand why they are so insisting on finding themselves, on just getting to the results, without going to the slow process, but rather going so fast in the "i learned a new thing today" process, in a matter of MINUTES, thanks to the internet; the pressure is just too much!! It really is messing up with our heads, innit? We are simply not adapted to so much information and daily life technology yet, we simply are n o t. And it makes me so sad, that, we can't help them, or us, at all. If i didn't had a slow virgo 80's-punk mom, that slows me down and brings me to her memories of being a rebel and latter a punk at the 70's and 80's with her voice, i would be so so lost.

[@SamI_Am]

​@@kyupiangel90​ I agree. I don't know what my style is. But I get called emo all the time. I enjoy rock , goth, metal, and just a lot of different genres in general and still discovering even more everyday especially since my father is a metal-head. I grew up listening to bands like Metallica amongst other things and my mother's fashion sense is quite awesome and different as well. Hell half my wardrobe is old things my mother used to wear that I think is awesome. One of my favorite sweaters is a ripped up black knit sweater with pins cutting all the way down the side that she gave to me. I like other styles too though. I feel like even those of us (teenagers) who don't feel the need to label their style anytime soon and are still experimenting are getting forced into boxes they know they don't necessarily fit in. I'm not emo and yet I constantly get told I am just because I wear darker or less conventional clothing. I wouldn't say my style is something you'd find on the street every day but I wouldn't put into any box either. I took sociology my junior year of highschool and a big part of that was talking about subculture. We got to do a project talking about how the music of the decade we were given impacted the culture of the youth or how the music reflected the decade. I got the 90s so I was very excited as I love 90s and 80s music and so I go to talk about how bands like Nirvana and their album Nevermind being released helped push alternative rock into the mainstream media etc. Honestly I'm watching this video cause I want to learn more about different subcultures and the discussion of modern fashion trends vs traditional alternative culture.

[@kyupiangel90]

@@SamI_Am wow that's so cool! I'm not interested on stressing inside of a system that is too complex and messy for me to cope with, like a university or a terciary study, but i do admire people who love it so much they keep going until they finish them, specially those in social oriented topics like sociology or psychology(both are very interesting and intriguing to me!), So what you tell me is very interesting. I myself love the 80's, some of the 90's, and the 2000's, because the music my mom and my brother played during my whole childhood + things i discovered on my own, really resonated with me on a personal level(and yes, i was there in 2008 when the scene subculture was a thing!! Althought it had a different name, the "floggers", and was really washed out of it's original cultural aspects, because i live in southamerica, so cultural changes take a long time, like 10 years or more, to get here), so i totally get your excitement, i would be thrilled too!! Hahaha And i totally get the thing of feeling like not fitting in any box, i had the same experience as you, my mom always gives me her old clothes because as soon as i see her youth, i feel so so at home, despite not even existing until she was +30, bc i was born in 1999. Just because we love a ton of things doesn't mean we literally need to distance ourselves from other people who might even enjoy them too!! That is a very old fashioned, and certainly childish, way of thinking, "oh no, you can't sit with us", no, you can sit, as long as you are not acting like shait, you can totally sit!! That's something box-minded people should understand for once, stop pushing people into boxes or groups, that only does more harm than good!! Nobody is perfect, that's why we are here on earth, to learn!!

[@215juliusgirl]

It wasn’t so much about your look as it was about what music speaks to your soul

[@DMshell17]

This a great point. When I was a teen I adopted the emo/scene look because that’s the music that resonated with me and made feel less lonely and those clothes felt so personal. Then as I started listening to softer indie music my style began to change. Then I started listening to 60s/70s progressive/psychedelic rock and my style once again changed. I am now in my early 30s and I still find my love of music (which involves many genres now) really inspires my fashion. My sense of style is so much tied to music and literature and what I feel connected to and identity. It’s disappointing that teens today just try and emulate what they see and not what feels right. I also feel like the videos on how to create a “look” are so formulaic. When I was inspired by music that I loved as a teen, I didn’t have any money or a guide on how to dress so I had to be creative and it was great! Whew. I am going on and on and clearly I have a lot of thoughts. 😂

[@LuAdore6]

It's the "Gatekeeper" thing for me lol It's annoying to be called that but I mean that's a huge reason we've lost so many things, Nowadays everyone wants to be wearing Nirvana shirts, baggy ripped jeans or whatever TikTok makes trendy, and I think that's mainly the reason people want to dress like that, Idk it's a rough subject for everyone now. For me personally, It's the goth community, I love goth music and the clothes, and the makeup, The KISS type of makeup!! Anyways where I live, it's becoming trendy to be an Egirl (yes again) and they refer to it as a "goth girl" when they ARE VERY different. It's a little sad for me because they think I'm an "Egirl", I just want that to stop because the Egirls I know listen to different music and dress very differently, and THAT'S NOT bad but at the same time whenever I show them a goth band (For example "The sisters of mercy") They get weirded out... I don't like that a lot of people aren't educated about subcultures and where they originated from... But now that I've said that I guess I'm a GateKeeper :/ which is sad because I never want to be rude to anyone about that but I have a hard time understanding this!

[@posergrave]

absolutely understand this feeling!!

[@thisuserdoesntexist780]

literally same

[@Rebelscum855]

They do it for attention on social media.

[@marciareyes5706]

Keep playing your music. Scare ppl that probably won't serve you in the long run. I play my music loud in my car an feel like cars move faster due to that or could just be me feeling the high 😉

[@layditms2]

lol. uh, i am the alt and grunge generation. you stole from us ?

[@KaiDecadence]

Also about Goth, the only thing you need to really know to understand it is that it's a music-based subculture that came about in the 80s (technically 1979 with the band Bauhaus but it truly exploded in the 80s) and it came from Post-Punk music. Notable goth bands are bands like [80s - The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Sisters of Mercy, The Mission, Fields of the Nephilim, Clan of Xymox, Skeletal Family, Christian Death, and Xmal Deutschland] [90s - London After Midnight, The Wake, Rosetta Stone, Suspiria, Lycia, Faith and the Muse, Love Like Blood, and Switchblade Symphony] [00s - Violet Stigmata, The Faces of Sarah, Elusive, All Gone Dead, Garden of Delight, and Solemn Novena] [10s - She Past Away, Twin Tribes, Drab Majesty, Sonsombre, Merciful Nuns, Selofan, Fearing, and La Scaltra] [20s - Mortal Boy, Altar of Eris, Cerulean Veins, Neila Invo, and Hidden Hand] Point I'm trying to illustrate here is the the music was being made well after the 80s and is still being made today. It's not mainstream but goth music as a whole never really was to begin with. As for the bands who never make it mainstream and end up disbanding to pursue or continue working day jobs, I just feel that maybe for these more niche genre musicians, they weren't trying to make it big to begin with, especially when you talk about the goth and punk scenes. A lot of the musicians know that the music is just too obscure for mainstream audience but they don't care about that because they genuinely enjoy the music and want to make what they like even if it doesn't pay the bills. They simply compromise and do the music as a hobby while continuing to work a day job and it works out just fine for them.

[@katya6959]

i'm super late to this video but thank you for the breakdown!! i mostly know the classic goth bands and almost nothing about the 10s-20s so this is a nice place to start!

[@KaiDecadence]

@@katya6959 No problem!

[@staby3956]

I hate the word “aesthetic” so much. It’s just so over used and everything has to be classified as an “aesthetic”. Nothing can just *be* anymore. People say “aesthetic” or “-core” so much that it’s practically meaningless now.

[@chuuchuuutrain]

corecore 😭

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

I get the aesthetic obsession but I cannot freaking stand when little kids think aesthetic is the only word to describe a style and a vibe . It ruined the word search on Pinterest and it also ruined the keywords of many subcultures

[@rat_marshall]

not to mention core implies some tie to punk lmao

[@Fadegalaxy-mv4mp]

ik it’s so dumb like just wear what you like, yk like how your favorite artists chose what to wear 💀

[@livvlife]

Another thing that sucks about this is even real fans or real people in the subculture can be left out. I was once told to “get your own music” simply bc I’m a gen z expressing my love for classic rock and grunge. A part of me likes and dislikes the growing trend of grunge style because I think it’s really cool but also I don’t want to be called a poser. There’s multiple issues- sometimes people in the subculture can be TO pretentious or gatekeepey. Imo, I understand somewhat gate keeping in terms of clarifying what is specific to a subculture. However some ppl are so pretentious and gate-keepey that even true fans of grunge can be shamed out of the wrong assumption that there a poser because “it’s trendy now”. I know every Nirvana track and genuinely really like them, but now I am a little anxious about even wearing a nirvana shirt because I don’t want to be called a poser or something. Idk, I hope I’m making sense. Things like this can be over complicated. I really just want to be allowed to enjoy what I enjoy without worrying about “being a poser” in the eyes of other people. That why I think you being up so many good points bc part of the issue is people assuming others don’t know about the subculture/ assuming how educated they are on it. Well done on this video.

[@deceptivepanther]

Very interesting. 🌻 Ninety percent of the people in subcultures like grunge never gave a sh*t about what it might mean. Most people just want to cultivate a sense of self-worth and meet somebody they can talk to. I'm old enough to have been a punk in the nineteen eighties, grunge, early techno etc. The intellectual aspects of those movements only ever lasted a couple of years, and that's natural. There's no point blaming the fashion or music industry. What I'm too old to understand, is in what form these movements live on in the internet age, but I'm sure a modern goth cares just as much, if not more, about the scene than we ever did. So don't romanticise the past kids; unless you want to for fun.

[@luke2806]

all this stuff exists on the internet now in a drastically different way. there are a LOT of younger people now who buy old tech from the 90's and 2000's like the old CRT TV's and old camcorders and thats their "grunge" or "goth" its very strange they like identify with 90's and 2000's technology and dress like they're from the early to mid 2000's. one example I found is a girl who goes by "brahkie" here on youtube its like a whole rabbit hole. im 33 so i was kinda confused when I found this subculture but its pretty popular apparently. idk what its called either.

[@tinnedteainsyrup8943]

I'm punk. My ideas and most of my music matches up to the expected. But I wear baggy cords and a dumb t-shirt. No makeup, just my greasy face. Also pink floyd animals is a good album. Listen to it lol

[@deekiu0326]

im 23 but I want to be more get more into alt stuff and be the alt kid my HS self was too shy to be lol. im trying to learn more through channels like yours, so thanks for posting :) you're one of my favorite channel now!

[@posergrave]

thanks so much! I totally feel you, I'm 27 now and def wasn't very alt in high school either

[@Tina-xy6ht]

I agree with you on this topic but I totally LOVE how your cats were fighting in the background!!! it felt like they were getting pumped up talking about grunge too haha

[@posergrave]

haha they were pissed!!

[@KaiDecadence]

The issue with these "new" styles is that they are born out of shallowness. Like when you were talking about "Tumblr Grunge" (also referred to as "soft grunge" if I'm not mistaken) was that while the look was cute, these people didn't listen to grunge music. Outside of maybe Nirvana and even then; 1, that is just one grunge band out of a many in the scene and I'm sorry but only listening to one band from a genre does not make you a fan of the genre, it just makes you a fan of the band and in order to truly say that you're a fan of a genre of music, you have to at least expose yourself to what the genre has to offer and try out the different bands within them to see if you really like the sound or not. And 2 (which was sadly more common in my experience), they didn't know the music period and thought bands like Nirvana were a clothing brand. And also Guns N Roses which is hilarious because they're not a grunge band and in the past they really disliked the grunge scene, it was the whole 80s Hair Metal vs Grunge fiasco after all lol. And this shallowness ended up seeping into other subculture like goth with the whole "pastel goth" trend and even emo where the kids calling thsmelves these things didn't listen to the music that defined the subcultures and were just into simply looking cool and edgy while (frankly) bastardizing the subculture. Something that really helped open my eyes to this was when Gen X'ers and older millennials that were born in the early 80s would comment how back then they all bonded over the music whereas nowadays (around the 2010s), they were just concerned with the aesthetic and looking cool and that was it. Bonding over music is something that transcends time , it's the reason why you can find goths, punks, and metalheads who have been in the scene for decades because they love the heart of these respective subcultures which is music. Meanwhile with a lot of young people today who get into the alternative scene only to get internet attention and choose not to listen to the music tend to use alternative as a trend, a shallow trend at that and tend to drop it when it's no longer seen as "cool". And you can't use the excuse of "the music isn't being made anymore" when that it isn't true at all as there are newer bands out there in the modern time who continue making these kinds of music, they just aren't mainstream (and can usually be found on Bandcamp). And that's the thing that annoys people within these specific alternative subcultures out of genuine interest and likeness. And then these "alt" trenders have the nerve to call those of us in these respective scenes as "gatekeepers" or "elitists"when we say that the scenes are defined by music and that in order to truly be apart of the scene, you have to at least listen to the music. That is where the problems come from. Like yeah, people can wear what they want and that's fine but what we're saying is that if you know in your heart that you're truly not interested in the specific scene's music, simply don't call yourself as such. "Alternative" is a good enough broad term to get across that you like alternative fashion while not being specific enough on a certain music-based subculture.

[@215juliusgirl]

This. I wish you were my kid.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@215juliusgirl Haha glad you enjoyed the comment even though it was long. But it's true, that's why these "alt" kids don't seem t last all that much because they don't have genuine interest in the scene.

[@weedywendy4266]

about the same time grunge really blew up, 60’s hippie style came back ‘style’, & it has again, twice since the early 90’s. fashion goes in cycles; social media has turned everything into an *aesthetic* & i agree, it’s gross. i agree that before you wear a band T, you should be an actual fan; i would NEVVVERR have worn a t shirt of a band whose music i was t familiar with NEVVVERRRR! being called a poser was the kiss of death. we need to bring back that fear… haha i don’t know. i get a kick out of seeing my 10 year old niece rocking a nirvana shirt.. she already thinks it / they are cool. with a little life experience behind her, maybe @ 13, wait til’ she hears the music and it speaks to her! all the youngsters have grown up hearing grunge on the radio.. we didn’t. i’ll never forget the first time i heard ‘smells like teen spirit’ .. 9th grade. it changed everything. EVERYTHING. signed, gen x great vid, btw

[@valzapsag8585]

I dress alt scince 14/15 (I'm 22) and I don't call myself part of any subculture (or al least not totally) bc I like many things of several subcultures and I am not talking just about the "aEsTetHiC" well it is true that everyone can dress with tf they want but here is My problem. I was bullied by many people for dress like that (yes, just for the clothes) and now almost EVERY PERSON who bullied at me is wearing the EXACTLY SAME CLOTHES. It would be ok if they never told me anything bc of that. But they did.

[@TessConnellan]

OH GOD I HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE AS A TEEN AND IT DROVE ME INSANE. People sneering at you for wearing/listening/making something and then months later they’re wearing it with NO acknowledgement of the hypocrisy. It makes me laugh now (at 29) but it was maaaddening at the time 😂

[@valzapsag8585]

TOTALLY! I mean if You they think I am a weirdo bc of My clothes WHY TF ARE YOU DRESSING LIKE THAT NOW? Wasn't I supossed to be a weirdo and bc of that You did not talk to me?

[@Kasia237]

Things, goth, grunge and punk have in common: they are music based subcultures. when it came to clothing it was second hand and diy, nobody wanted to look exactly like someone else, it was just hints of things that brought them together, like a flannel shirt. I’m a Gen Xer and was a teenager for Grunge being on the cusp of going mainstream. Grunge is still my main influence for my clothing style.

[@sorenserotonin]

the tumblr grunge thing is that most people who listened to indie rock or indie pop during that era Did label themselves grunge they used that label when it wasn't what they were. they were indie kids! its totally fine to be in your own niche but don't take the name of another one. its like people who wear dark aesthetics calling themselves goth without actually listening to goth music. this also reminded me of a thing in the vampire chronicles fandom where people were using that like. tumblr grunge and tumblr nugoth thing to depict lestat's rock band in the series. someone said that they imagine lestat making music like LANA DEL REY!!!! when he is a GOTH ROCK musician not an indie pop musician. i read that and I had to close the app I was like "these people know nothing about rock music". people will see a dark color scheme and go "goth" when its not!!! the problem in my opinion with these commercialized and consumerist-centric aspects of alternative subcultures isn't these things becoming popular it's the fact that these are completely different subcultures that are being labeled as the same thing. emo isn't goth but so many people who are emo will call themselves goth and then call you a gatekeeper because you say "wearing a lot of black and listening to fall out boy does not make you goth".

[@DMshell17]

I was emo as a teenager and then indie but everyone called me goth. It was so annoying.

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

Worst Is that stupid 13 yr olds who wear black lipstick and ripped skinny jeans don’t give a shit and tried to tell me what they are wearing isn’t punk inspired when they have Vivienne Westwood inspired sigils everywhere.also when I tried sharing on Reddit a lot of ppl who are in the dark sub community told me I am selfish for trying to control what ppl wear. I’m like are you even a subculture lover ? You are supposed to correct and educate ppl who are doing it wrong . And here you are supporting a kid who doesn’t even know what they are wearing? Like it’s ridiculous bc some ppl want to be nice or they don’t value the culture as much they accuse you a load of bullshit. I wish we can bring the era of sassy strict fashion critiques back bc these ppl obv don’t treat fashion with respect and need to be humbled

[@darkangelw8472]

I love grunge and I shop in charity stores and I'm old school, being born in the mid 70s, so taking grunge from its original in the 90s

[@zillyfelixx]

My mom doesn’t like when I thrifted because she said the clothes have diseases, so I buy from zoomies and like Spensers, but then wore them out to the point my mom will throw it away 😭

[@iristhyselius1621]

I don’t like your mom😊

[@peach2907]

When I was like 12 I started dressing however I wanted I’d see alt people and go I like the layers with long sleeves and another shirt on top Ooh, I like those boots Ooh I like that And I just started merging the stuff I liked from each fashion derived from the music I was listening to xd My mom obviously didn’t understand what was going on xd She’d look up boots like the ones I wanted and stuff and started doing this thing that really made me cringe We’d go somewhere to get me new clothes (I would outgrow my pants and shirts super fast, another why I started getting larger stuff) She’d grab anything from other black, red or olive green And say “This is soo grunge uwu” And I’d be like “Mom, what-? Who taught you that word?” I didn’t even listen to grunge xd Now I’m 17 I still do that thing of mashing up different things I like People ask me for my “aesthetic” genre or ask if I’m emo/whatever I’m just me xd They’re like Oh, why do you have a mullet? Because I liked it Yeah but why do you like it? Idk I just do lol It’s difficult to find people that understand my hole deal of I liked it so I diyed it/got it My mom stopped doing the “this is soo grunge uwu” thing when I was like 15 She’s having a hard time still with understanding my style But hey I don’t blame her xd

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

I sometimes wish subculture isn’t so known to everyone all ppl do is destroy subcultures as much as I love sharing about fashion I want to protect from ppl who don’t value this movement

[@isaac139]

I could listen to you talk for hours. Please make more content.

[@posergrave]

this is so nice u have no idea how much i cringe at myself

[@alycat2038]

Whenever I talk about this I get called a gatekeeper and I am like wdym?!?!? All I said was that you have to like goth music to be goth? You don't have to dress fancy all the time?!?!

[@notjotaro1696]

This is why I just call myself alt. I do have some influences from punk and grunge, (And hip hop) but I prefer not to call myself a punk outloud since I find it pretentious

[@dragoonsunite]

... I... Have so much criticism here... Look if grunge is what you find at a thrift store, grunge will always be whatever is thrifted from 10-20 years ago, period. That's fine if that's what you are into, go anticorporate, but to call it an "aesthetic" is strange, since it won't ever be a static aesthetic. Grunge from the 80's will ALWAYS look different then grunge from the 2020's its not an aesthetic, its a subculture, where the aesthetic is always current culture dated. People who want the "grunge aesthetic" and pay patronage to the original are in a position where they simply can't have their cake and eat it to. If you look like you're dressing in 1980's grunge in modern times, because you "appreciate the aesthetic and the culture" you are almost 100% guaranteed to be a hypocrite, since the odds that you got clothing somewhere that looks like 1980's thrift are nonexistent, which means its almost certainly recently purchased corporate shit, at best, purchased from outlet, and much more likely, just you hiding behind the fact that you try to look authentic while not being. Goth, emo, scene, and punk tend to be more true aesthetics... But... Aesthetic and culture are divisive and always will be. At best the appreciation for the genre origination is all that holds it together. Goth will always have a lot of appreciation for Victorian era clothing, but will favor the sort you would see during mourning in keeping with its secondary focus of the macabre. In no small way Lolita fashion is just that, plus bright colors, minus the macabre. Emo, scene, EDM, E-Girl, and the like are all more ephemeral, the culture unironically being more key then the aesthetic, which is really just "alt" with a variety of alterations on primary accoutrements. Punk is more cultural like grunge, but punk is a broader avenue of defiance, where the point is necessarily outlandish, with steampunk, cyberpunk, and other sub-cultures and genres being derivative, and more about a message that doesn't necessarily adhere to "strictly" anti-corporate, but is rather "anti-something" which can be the prudish older generation, the models of society, the political foundation, indeed capitalism, or something else. There are genuinely punk movements that don't care one way or another about "capitalism" but care deeply about other things that they find much more important, feminism is a common avenue. The thing that always drives me crazy about this all is that there are key psychological factors that bring those who wish to explore the aesthetic together more then apart. The appreciation of the aesthetic and identity, even when superficial, is a launching point for greater interest when expanded upon... In general peoples identities are more complex, and a vibe or overall thematic expression says a lot more then people think with the history buffs of any given identity often trying to gatekeep ineffectually because they lack the nuance of accepting the reality that all things change and evolve, and they are becoming the conservative left behind within their own movement.

[@Lalaland666-k3x]

Yeah, this video only made like, one valid point, my main thing is how she and other people assume that if you dress a certain way are are a certain person, which is the opposite of what alt is about, also, I genuinely roll my eyes when I see conservative alt people, like alt is about freedom not taking it away

[@LuAdore6]

Ugh im obsessed with your eyeshadow!!

[@posergrave]

thx so much!

[@l0st_e4rth]

Buying actually durable clothes isnt rlly cheap anymore

[@Fadegalaxy-mv4mp]

i haven’t watched the vid but i’m going to start and say no and that people need to stop caring what others are doing or thinking!

[@smilessmiles7906]

Most of the artists/musicians I know who make alt music and art dress like low key normies. It cost too much and takes up too much time that could be used making art to care about fashion aesthetics.

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

It’s surprisingly true, but another thing is that subculture is mainly the spirit.fashion is a huge part but I feel that another thing that really resonates with it is your spirit and attitude that aligns with the culture’s motto

[@buckodonnghaile4309]

Docs weren't notoriously cheap at that time. Where did the writer come up with that piece of fiction? Also, they werent half as anti capitalist as they were dirt poor.

[@PetiteFoxDelights]

Your makeup in this vid is so good

[@posergrave]

Thank you!

[@eggysalad]

my least favourite thing is seeing someone call themselves goth or punk and then being transphobic or homophobic or racist or any kind of ignorant... like cmon these are movements about anarchy and community, any true goth or punk knows that love and celebrating people's differences are such a core aspect of it. sometimes the fashion alts call me radical for "gatekeeping" or just trying to explain the lifestyle to them, but i am, i am radical because thats what being alt is! it's more than a way of looking it's a lifestyle and im proud to be a queer abolitionist anarchist goth?? like isn't that what this stuff is about? it's not being different for the sake of it, but expressing yourself and letting the world know your views.

[@215juliusgirl]

The thing is that aesthetic means how something looks on the outside. That’s why the word “aesthetic” is annoying to those of us who lived thru it. Firstly, you weren’t there, it’s not your fault that you don’t understand it (although you do better than most) and it is sad that there aren’t really “scenes” anymore like there used to be. Grunge was a word created by corporate america that they gave to the punk scene in Seattle and environs that had suddenly taken off all over the country and into mainstream america. We knew it as…. Punk. There literally was not one person in the late 80s to mid 90s in Seattle or anywhere else in the country that would think to call themselves “grunge.” There was definitely a punk, alternative (not Alternative, just an alternative to mainstream) culture. Then you had your ravers, your goths (not as many of them), your hippies, your preppy/jock/popular kids and your “Farmer Ted” nerd types. So Grunge never existed. Grunge was Punk. You all need to get some subcultures of your own. Resist corporate America. Put down your phones, pick up your guitars, and don’t record it until you are good. No selfies. I wrote a song once called Go Fuck Your Selfie. I still agree with the sentiment. When was the last time a beautiful, awesome music genre came out of a scene? Kpop?!? No. Trap?!? No. The subcultures you speak of are much beloved by people you would think of as someone’s parents and really, I would be proud and happy to see you find your own. I’m tired of explaining riot grrrl and ska and how skinheads were black too in the beginning and 90s punk and how flannel shirts became popular because the bands were from Seattle where there are a lot of lumber jacks and that’s what was in thrift stores. It was co-opted then and painful to watch but for some reason it is more so now because you search and search for a young person who seems to get it but the world has become so commodified that you all don’t have the ability to understand. It’s like another language and that makes me want to cry for you. In fact, sometimes I do. For us all. Without the music the clothes don’t exist. Without the clothes, the music still exists. You could be “goth” af and wear nothing but bright pink. Understand? Kinda? Aesthetic is surface level, created mostly by mainstream fashion mags and MEANINGLESS. Try more Fight the Powers that Be, more If Your World to You is Worth Changing and less I’m a Barbie Girl, in a Barbie World. It’s your planet that is dying, your lives that are at stake, your futures that have yet to be written, your phones in your back pocket causing your escalation of loneliness, despair, and suicide. The art and music and writing from your generation should be the most amazing, true, new, innovative, defiant and inspiring we have ever heard for all that is at stake in the state of the world and all you understand about it. What is going on? You’re too busy playing culture police and reinventing the past and glorifying your traumas and making tiktoks? Please…. I mean that. Please… My time is past and i did what I could and still do. Yours was just beginning but now it’s been here. Come to terms with whether you are ok with how you spend it, it’s such a small blink of an eye in the universe but can change everything for everyone who needs it. And you have come close a couple times. Bit without true arts to accompany it, a new species of worm for everyone’s head, a reason to gasp and smile, your bang becomes a whimper.

[@doctorskull8197]

I just love the sound of really loud electric guitars. Appearance is irrelevant.

[@Souls-at-zer0]

One thing I hate tho… acting like just because you have some money means you’re disqualified from any alt culture…I grew up poor and use to make all my clothes . Not like legit but any band merch or earrings ect I’d make, hand paint hand sew, but god forbid I’m an adult now and buy real bad merch or yes some 200$ nice boots. All the sudden your to rich to hang… I don’t get the hate to people who can afford clothes and other things… I get where the low income comes to play in theses subcultures but it’s wild to hate on someone for being able to afford to eat and get new shoes …

[@posergrave]

@@Souls-at-zer0 100% agree

[@lilydelacy322]

I’ve always classified myself as a “grungy girly” Yk hand me down jeans, band shirts,shoes etc with the occasional brand new Beene or black undershirt from my local H&M or kohls. Wile I do think you have a point isn’t it a music baist subculture. But I think you’re very right❤

[@215juliusgirl]

Is that based or biased?

[@alex_le_vrai4452]

I hate fashion i think it’s dumb af. If you want to be metal grunge or punk.. just listen to those category’s of music and, after that well you can say that you are that style.. clothes and fashion is only a plus to your own style

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

why are you here on a fashion subculture video then

[@alex_le_vrai4452]

@@Mighty.Matcha. im here for the same reason as you lol maybe because I like it 💀

[@zachharris3040]

I think people being insular in nature hurts the culture and if you thought people were standoffish before it’s only gotten worse. I’ve been to so many punk shows alone, and because for a majority of them I was in the mosh pit, I did feel a sense of community with people singing together and bumping around, putting their arms around each others shoulders, and snapping into action to help pick someone up who has fallen down. With that said, once the music turns off, people are hard to connect to. And no one will approach you to start a conversation. I see all these people who look the same at the shows, yet there is something fake about it. I guess everyone is usually have some sort of style they like, but I just expect more embrace from the people who are at punk shows. In reality, every adult is still like those shy junior high kids at their first dance not wanting to talk to their crushes or be the first one on the dance floor. As far as aesthetics, I think it helps divide people in some sense. Because I think people are kind of looks based and are impressed by external factors. So for me, who looks pretty normie(a band t shirt, pants nothing crazy, yet I’m a fairly decent looking dude), I feel a little like I stick out at shows. Because almost everyone looks similar. I think tattoos are sort of an indicator of this as well. So many people have them and so many of them that for better or worse I think they lose meaning, and they don’t stick out. They’re a mashup on someone’s body and you can’t even tell what it is. Some girl I was speaking with on a dating app had an operation Ivy patch on her denim but hadn’t really listened to them. Which was a little strange but I didn’t call her out on it. Yet, when I said that against me was one of the best shows I’ve been to, she said she saw them and wasn’t too impressed. And we hadn’t built much rapport at this point. That was rude and tactless if you ask me. I guess my point is that the way someone looks doesn’t indicate who someone is but it does attract a certain type of person. There are a lot of punk fans who are tactless douchebags like this girl who really don’t meet anyone outside their little social circle at shows, yet because they know the songs then they’re more legit? Nah, I would rather meet someone is kind and open than a hardcore fan who is a dbag. With all that said it is cringe still when companies try to mimic a subculture. And maybe this is hypocritical based on what I just said but emo nite to me is so cringe. It feels like kids who really didn’t have the balls to listen to punk music that was a little more raw. Idk maybe I’m overthinking it, I just know the time I went to an emo nite the whole setup was cringe. There’s a stage where people can get on and lip sing to the crowd, so you end up getting a bunch of attention whores up there. Idk it just felt like it was more about people trying to get attention than vibing to the music. That’s pretty much what aesthetics are to. Trying to get attention without going any deeper. Also smells like teen spirit isn’t supposed to mock anything. They were trying to emulate the pixies, who they loved, and the lyrics are just nonsensical, but it’s not mocking anything. The OG poster is off on that one.

[@jorjicostava6657]

I'm exactly like you when I go to my local punk venue. I tend the bar (volunteering), get in the pit, I've been starting a fanzine, but I still feel SO FUCKING ALONE whenever the music stops and I'm just that mod with the glasses. Everyone comes and leaves in groups and understandably don't feel the need to talk to outsiders. I'm a business student so I see a lot of capitalist preppy mfs but still in a way they seem more approachable (maybe because I see them in a generally negative light, it helps being relaxed because I don't feel like I have to prove them anything) EDIT: yes I'm studying business and economics, but I'm an organised leftist ssssssooooooooo I reckon I could be worse

[@OuchMyHooves]

I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here: not really? Sure, it’ll clog google searches and popularize a capitalism derived version of it, but at the end of the day it doesn’t take away from the actual image. Anyone that actually cares about the messages and ideas of the subculture will stick through everything instead of jumping ship because it’s “too mainstream.” That’s how I see it at least.

[@pierce7992]

It hurts the metal head community it waters down a community filling our community with egirl posers

[@ButterrrrrScott]

i don't think i can really label myself as an alt person, a lot of them are music based and don't get me wrong i love music, i like Gorillaz a sprinkle of random songs like livin on a prayer or sweet child of mine, still it doesn't feel right for myself to say i'm in any subculture, cause it just seems unfair for the people that are goth, punk ect yk music based subcultures sorry this is a bit off topic. i just want to fit in somewhere, but the clothing i see facinates me for sure!

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

Subcultures doesn’t have to be jsut goth /punk/grunge etc there are many other subcultures.Alt is a identification for ppl who likes all sort of music/ style and mixed genres.it’s literally a name made for ppl like you who are into a mix of everything.so it’s okay to use it :) alt isn’t just limited to subculture it can be for any other genres/fandoms you are in.

[@jorjicostava6657]

In my opinion it does indeed all stem from musical taste. One day you'll find YOUR thing and you'll know it. For me it was British rhythm&blues, jamaican music and soul. I think you're still very very young but don't worry, it's not a race. Us "alternative" people always end up finding our niche. Sometimes there's a scene around it, sometimes not (in my case I haven't had much luck) and sometimes there's a look to adopt to the degree you want. About once every month I still have, despite being already almost 23, a big identity crisis where I get to think that I'm not a real Mod yadda yadda, but I always come back to it for the love of music. My rule of thumb is 1st the music, 2nd engaging in the lifestyle (shows, gatherings, doing something to promote the culture you love), 3rd the style; even in a style-obsessed subculture such as mods

[@faun_fatale]

Just be you... That's the best thing you can do these days. There is just a LOT these days. Many different subcultures are based on completely superficial things, for example all of these "core-types". We also dig a lot of stuff up from like 40 years ago, because we crave identity in this world full of information overload. For example goth... ok? I mean, maybe it's the country and overall location I live in... but the stuff you find at thrift stores here are mostly ugly y2k clothes and things that "don't go" with trad goth and that says something. Goth can be many things, but it just isn't worth it. The whole premise of goth and the idea is just not contemporary anymore in terms OF HOW IT LOOKED. "Goth" now would look like this probably: Anything you can buy at a thrift store NOW and not drive miles and miles on end for it (unless you have to anyway, shoutout to all Americans) Listen to the Underground music of today that reflects the feelings of the goth-subculture, AS WELL. Nobody says you can't listen to the og goth bands. live more eco-friendly Use no makeup, or as little as you can. Not having to many unnecessary products etc... You see it's more about vanity rather than actual values these days. Pick your values in life and start from there... And yes, I am also guilty of my own vanity. I am not here to preach.

[@luke2806]

I was into "alt" emo culture in the mid 2000's but im 33 now. its all just a nothing burger. its just something for people in their teens and early 20's to grasp onto as a way to understand their reality a little easier. you get over the "this genre of music and this look is my personality" thing pretty quick, hopefully before 30, going into 30's with this mindset would be kinda depressing.

[@pierce7992]

You are a misrable judgemental asshat

[@pierce7992]

Even you're family found you bland

[@dmhq-administration]

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE your cats fucking around in the background! 🤔🤣🥰🤗💖 I BELIEVE Goth originated in the UK! 🤔 Goth is a music-based subculture that began in the United Kingdom during the early 1980s. It was developed by fans of gothic rock, an offshoot of the post-punk music genre.

[@jorjicostava6657]

That's why, in a very twisted mental post-everything way, subcultures that derive from Mod (Skinheads for example) almost do seem more authentic despite being absolutely brand obsessed (just think about the Ben Sherman/Brutus/Fred Perry fixation)

[@UniversalistSon9]

It’s kinda strange how they lump grumge up with goth and stuff, grunge was if anything an anti-fashion while goth is total fashion. Grunge was just a newer version of the metal head look really.but I will say that philosophically they were very alike.

[@pierce7992]

Grunge isn't modern metalhead fashion

[@UniversalistSon9]

@@pierce7992 look up sludge metal and you might understand what I mean ( and I meant early grunge, not the more popular 90s stuff)

[@pierce7992]

@@UniversalistSon9 I'm a metal head Ik more about metal then you grunge ties w/ sludge but sludge didnt effect metal fashion death metal bands like cc at most wear a bit of black

[@jaheim1872]

honestly learned first I just liked the music and shit and the whole idea of fuck copitalism but never realized that buying from those same companies feed it Imma stop being lazy and look tho shit I fw on second hand from now on for everything I can

[@hysterikole1]

Kids today. man. Look, I was a punk in the 80s, and we didn't wear 'women's clothes' to make a statement...listen up real close...this is important...Clothes are made of fabric. They dont have a goddamned gender. You and your society prescribe it a gender, but thats on you. Sure, maybe a skirt was 'designed for women', but if ir's cheap and it fits, it's just clothes. It's so weird to me to see people today putting so much damn pressure on what is basically a pound of fabric, as if it 'affirms your identity'...Listen up again, this is gold...it only affirms your identity if you ascribe to societal norms, in which case, you are not part of the counterculture, normie.😇Have a day.

[@shilogetshealthy1007]

Goth was from the 80s from bands like the cure and grunge was was from the 90s from bands like nirvana and hole

[@jeeptoe]

Yep, I love both

[@DGD4Landy]

Love both genres tbh

[@kittenlofi420]

omg I love ur videos

[@posergrave]

Thank you! 💖

[@steezghf]

not all heros wear capes , im a specail use case , i dress my own way , but i listen to everything from punk ,HC ,grind grunge alternative , DNB ,crust sludge , black metal , cross over , thrash ect . but i dont dress nor do i project myself to belong to one scene only . i used to dress punk , but i got sick of the aesthetics of tight pants 100 dollar doc martin boots and sewing my own clothes , it was fun in the beginning , but it just became a annoyance after a while

[@rowanjoy419]

bring back gatekeeping, HHAHAHA

[@r0tting_.Bxnes4]

You look like Chloe from life is strange

[@s.a.l.1974]

remember when the prettiest woman in the goth subculture was a cis man :(

[@WadeDriver-fp7mu]

Entropy

[@NoirL.A.]

what zodiac sign are you?

[@sofiag9568]

libra

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

Why does it even matter

[@supervixenxiii]

Gothcore 😂

[@Augrills]

This is something you’re only going to care about in your teens and 20s. No one over 30 cares if you play dress up

[@layditms2]

i am the grunge generation. uh, none of you are ?

[@KaiDecadence]

Gotta agree. Grunge music is a fun genre when the right mood hits but the "scene" only had it's high peak in the 90s and died in the 90s. Yeah there are still bands that make grunge music today but as far as the scene itself goes, the generation of grunge would be Gen X and the millennials born in 1981 to about 1983; you know the people who were old enough to realistically take in the music and participate in the scene during the 90s. For millennials born in the 90s, we simply missed out on it because we were too young to truly get involved with it as we were just young children during that time.

[@LorneVanSipe]

I’m just tired of this kind of crap. You can’t be grunge it wasn’t a subculture. The guys just wore cheap thrift store clothes. It was just a name some dumb magazine called the music because they didn’t know what it was. Grunge music was simply a more evolved version of punk. The punk bands of the 70s were inspired by a lot of the stripped down garage music of the late sixties. In the late 80s going into the 90s you had rock bands that were inspired by punk because most of these guys grew up listening to punk. But at the end of the day it’s just alternative rock. Most of those bands hated being called grunge. The punks hated being called punks. The original punk movement was from 1975 - 1980. After that it split into two. One side focused more on the artistic side of punk which was post punk later goth. On the other side you have Hardcore which focuses more on the message and less on the art. If you want to be apart of the subcultures you have to listen to the music and respect the music. You also have to identify with the ideology of the subculture. Other wise you aren’t part of it. It doesn’t matter what you wear. I don’t know why so many people give a crap about this stuff. It’s because of people not understanding and basically walking around in goth, punk or Grunge costumes that I have very little interest associating myself with the current scene. People don’t understand. Everyone wants to put themselves in a category of something but it’s all just bull shit. I love REAL punk and goth from the 70s and 80s but I don’t do much in the scene because too many people are using it as away to get attention on Tik Tok or instagram. It’s all just too artificial. All the trust fund hipsters and dumb influencers have ruined it. Just a recap on a thing I said earlier. There is no such thing as being grunge. Nobody in the 90s was walking around saying I’m grunge. I think people confuse it with how emo was in the 2000s but it was nothing like that. Side note emo has been around since 1985. Google the band Rites of Spring. Getting a bit off topic. You can be anti capitalist but there is no such thing as being grunge or dressing grunge. It was just a dumb name given to music. Nirvana is okay but I suggest you listen to the other bands like Tad, Mud honey, Sleeping Trees, Melvin’s, Green River and Mother Love bone. Just listen to the music for the subcultures, clothes don’t matter. Just be yourself.

[@TheSGEllie]

I wear a lot of clothes from my relatives.and have not problems with that.they are my family.

[@darkseason96]

Grunge WAS NOT gender neutral. Girls would dress tomboyish sure. However wearing dresses was something that ONLY and i repeat ONLY Kurt Cobain did and he did it because he was a damn idiot. What one person in the whole genre does it doesn't make it the norm.

[@KaiDecadence]

How is Kurt an "idiot" for wearing a dress?

[@darkseason96]

@@KaiDecadence he simply is And he would never get away with it if he wasnt famous The girl in the video wanna make it seem like its a part of the grunge style just because 1 guy did it. A guy that wasnt a real grunge musician first of all but made pop songs with a grunge esthetic

[@ThomasWake1]

Kurt was a sellout and he knew he was. 90s is when punk died and became mainstream thanks to Nirvana

[@Mighty.Matcha.]

I just google kurt in a skirt and it has nothing to do with grunge at all.I can only imagine the misinterpretation from there