Trolleybus VS Battery Bus - Which One Is The Future?

My Patreon - / cityforall
***
In this video, we talk about trolleybuses and electric buses, their strengths and weaknesses, and which option is optimal for use in cities.
We also talk about the history and best global examples - Solingen, Arnhem, Zurich and Rome.
#cityforall #urbanism #city #trolleybus #electricbus #history #solingen #rome #zurich #arnhem #publictransport
Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
00:29 - History
04:35 - Successful cases: Solingen, Germany
06:46 - Arnhem, the Netherlands
08:06 - Zurich, Switzerland
10:18 - Rome, Italy
12:11 - Or maybe just buy electric buses?
17:06 - Conclusions

[@cityforall]

Support the channel by Patreon - www.patreon.com/CitiesforAll

[@carkawalakhatulistiwa]

Please Made video soviet microdistrict vs USA suburb. What is better disain

[@jeffwindrim975]

I’m curious what is the price difference of a regular length trolley bus VS a regular length lithium battery powered bus

[@CosmicSeeker69]

that was in the video @@jeffwindrim975

[@jeffwindrim975]

@@CosmicSeeker69 The Bay Street Bus I believe was the last running trolley bus in Toronto.

[@NeonNion]

Environmentally speaking, trolleybusses are way superior compared to battery electric busses, they don't require toxic rare earth metals like BEBs do. That's why, in my opinion, we should be building them whenever possible and sensical. Like, it wouldn't make much sense to build overhead electrical cables for a limited rural bus service.

[@Taladar2003]

Obviously in areas with heavy traffic tram or metro lines might make more sense than trolley buses too.

[@NeonNion]

@@Taladar2003 Of course! Trolleybusses would best perform in somewhere in the middle. In Helsinki regional area, we have many trunk bus lines, which are characterized by orange color from normal blue one. The busiest of them, called line 550, was just upgraded to a tram line. It hasn't opened to the public yet, but will open very soon. Other lines are busy too, but don't justify building tram tracks in the same way. It's those kinds of services that I think should be built to trolley standard. And I do think that every trolley line should be built in a way that would allow a possible future upgrade to a tram line.

[@dulau2510]

In rural areas we should have diesel buses or trains, it's not efficient for an electric bus to cover large distances

[@DerpSenpai]

There are batteries nowadays that don't use toxic rare earth metals. Just Lithium, Iron and Phosphate

[@sickre]

What is the environmental (and financial) overhead of setting up and maintaining the overhead lines?

[@demyandanyluk7399]

Save trolleybuses!

[@destrozar]

We have trolley buses in Lyon, aswell as trams, bendy buses and a great metro system.

[@andrewdubs5664]

The biggest trolleybus network is in Kyiv and I'm sure it won't be replaced for very long

[@kluculda]

Are you sure? Moscow was the biggest and after a few years... One idiot and go done...

[@artsold]

​​@@andrewdubs5664biggest and most fckd. I live here and I know what im saying

[@roemerjonker284]

Yes

[@yrr0r244]

The biggest reason I love trolleybuses is when the bus gets bigger, there's no need to put a bigger battery in there because they source electricity from overhead wires. So in my opinion the bi-articulated or even tri-articulated trolleybuses are usually a better investment than the standard size ones.

[@miroslawmoczyrog]

Trolleybuses with batteries give you the best of both: they are lighter, cheaper, autonomous, don't need dedicated chargers, do not waste time on charging, don't require overhanging cables everywhere, are able to reroute

[@rasmAn2]

i've lived in Arnhem for 15 years now, all maintenance i've known to have been done in this time is when a lorry that shouldn't have been where it was drove into a bridge and smooched the wires. there was also one street that got extensively redone, and in the meantime the poles holding the wires up got redone. both were done within a few days. there is one truly ancient service lorry that is an event when it's spotted, i've seen it twice when a storm made some branches fall on the wires. wires last a long time, but if they need to be changed, the service lorry comes by at night, and changes the wires over at about 2kmh, without any noise that would wake anyone. As stated, the network is about 70 years old and doing just fine. the amount of maintenance seems to be quite minimal, as does the additional outages and delays. the worst thing that seems to happen is that someone pulls the ropes of the fishing poles to be funny, but it seems most people of questionable intelligence think that that is where the electricity is, so it doesn't happen all that often

[@AlRoderick]

Trolley buses are unambiguously good. We should definitely have wires put up in our cities and we should also use those wires for other things as well, like the garbage trucks, postal vans, snow plows and such. We should make the batteries in those vehicles relatively small and probably interchangeable as opposed to fitting them with a gigantic battery that mostly just sits there being hauled around. With advances in robotics and sensors, it shouldn't be that difficult to design a system that can put the poles back onto the wires autonomously basically anywhere. However, I have to push back a little bit on the stuff about the mining, most of the stories are overblown and a lot of them are propaganda from oil companies. Oil companies, by the way are the biggest consumers of cobalt, it's used in diesel refining. The fire risk is definitely real, but we're starting to see interesting breakthroughs in sodium ion battery chemistry that has a much reduced fire risk. It's got a lower energy density but as I said we shouldn't be putting multiple ton batteries in the buses anyway. Good presentation overall.

[@cityforall]

Agree! In general, in my opinion, battery technology is still in the process of development, so it is a bit early for cities to invest millions in something that will most likely become obsolete in just a few years

[@GaryGraham-sx4pm]

induction charging. busses stop for a minute at bus stops. level with the road surface at bus stops is an induction charger. under the bus is an induction charge receiver. two types of electricity storage on bus; super capacitors for quick charge and initial motion inertia, plus whatever is most efficient battery cells for traction power between stops. (charge induction is only live when interfaced with charge receiver). for two reasons; no catenary and associated maintenance, and no need for on- board charging generator or the weight of all-of-trip battery capacity. possible multi-use for other electric utility vehicles.

[@jan-lukas]

​@@GaryGraham-sx4pmbuses and trucks are to heavy for induction based systems, as they're inefficient. Meanwhile cars are not tall enough for overhead wire... On highways we might get both, but in the cities it will be mostly wires

[@GaryGraham-sx4pm]

@@jan-lukas. thanx for your reply. induction electrical energy transfer is very efficient, every transformer is an induction energy transfer device. induction suitable for buses because of predetermined and frequent charging positions at bus stops. there are about a dozen examples of viable induction charged city bus systems.

[@none776]

​@@GaryGraham-sx4pm The efficiency of inductive charging decreases when an air gap increases. AC transformers are very large and have zero air gap. And therefore they are effective.

[@syryozh6957]

I live in Kyiv and the main public transport option that I use is trolleybus! Kyiv trolleybuses are just iconic

[@edward28051989]

Trolleybus is the real Eco-friendly bus.

[@thoughtfox2409]

Trollybusses are great for citys with a high frequency, battery-electric busses are great for low-frequency longer range routes, like in rural areas or for special services. A Public transit network should always have a few network-indipendent busses, to compensate for big events, accidents and construction on mainlines, evactuations etc. even if it usually only runs trollybusses.

[@creaturexxii]

In Vancouver Canada there's lots of trolley buses. I rode the number 19 which takes you to Stanley Park and I got to say, trolley buses accelerate fast! They're definitely one of my favourite type of buses second only to double deckers.

[@AlRoderick]

But imagine, double decker trolley bus.

[@DanTheCaptain]

@@AlRoderickthey have existed before. They were really common in the UK, however had a similar fate as trams in America.

[@cityforall]

I'm trying to imagine double-decker and bi-articulated trolleybus - that will be a thing!

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

@@DanTheCaptain worse... because no trolleybus system survived after 1972 in UK.

[@pbilk]

​@@MarceloBenoit-trenesodd, that was the time of the oil crisis. You would think the opposite for people who drove less would take transit.

[@guidoenriquez3076]

Can't believe you didn't mention Mexico City, the system was fully renovated with brand new Yutong trolleybuses and many new kilometres of this service have been or are being created.

[@cityforall]

That's for the next videos :)

[@gundurito]

And instead of buying electric buses for BRT lines they should have upgraded them to trolleybuses, which WILL last longer.

[@dxelson]

With the current anti-china sentiment, probably doesnt want to cover chinese products.. everything chinese is evil, even if its the worlds largest green energy producer

[@humanecities]

I really appreciate that there are a variety of options for people getting around. Different circumstances call for different solutions. Thanks for this in depth look at these modes!

[@cityforall]

Thanks for watching!

[@user-he4ue6is7k]

Not all batteries use cobalt and much more is used in oil refining and combustion engines, and you can only use the fuel once. Also some battery types are safer than others.

[@CosmicSeeker69]

that's incorrect - cobalt in refining is almost - but not quite ever lasting - The equation is around 660.000 gals of fuel per ounce of cobalt used up. You are right about LFP being much safer, however at a much lower energy density

[@MarioAtheonio]

Great video! Here in Bratislava (Slovakia), the trolleybus network is about to be significantly expanded, and I'm really looking forward to the double-articulated vehicles which should enter operation sometime this year! However, the city still feels the need to tinker with battery electric and even hydrogen buses as well, for some reason.

[@cityforall]

Thanks! Bratislava is very interesting in terms of public transport with all it's trams and trolleybuses :)

[@Schnaitheimer]

Thanks for highlighting at the end, that trolley buses are also electric buses. I prefer to speak of battery buses and trolley buses to mark the real difference of both power systems. And overall, a really good video of course :-)

[@cityforall]

Thank you! That's a good point about a battery bus, it's really more clear.

[@gundurito]

Mexico City has a 203km trolleybus network served by 290 units on 9 lines, with two more lines under construction. Latest acquisitions have included simple and articulated units with supporting batteries and are regularly used as a support whenever the subway or other systems fail, having a ~80km battery autonomy.

[@cityforall]

Mexico City strong. It's worth a separate video

[@peter_smyth]

This is an excellent video, it lays out all the important points in enough detail without being too long, and is balanced with pros and cons.

[@cityforall]

Thanks! Nice to hear that!

[@thomaskortvelyessy]

Fully agree! I have lived in Arnhem for 4 years and I know them from Budapest. And so I kept asking myself the same questions. The combo of trolleybus and battery was new for me but makes all the sense. Thank you for making this video!

[@Brengfan2015]

Very interesting and good video! I'm so glad I live here in Arnhem (The Netherlands) because I really like trolleybuses and visit Solingen very often, which is only 2,5 hours by train from Arnhem. Keep up the good work! 🙌

[@cityforall]

Thanks! Hope you've subscribed!

[@Brengfan2015]

​@@cityforallI actually forgot about that, now I do! 😃🙌

[@cityforall]

@@Brengfan2015 now good :)

[@IamTheHolypumpkin]

You now could argue: “Well actually copper for the wires too is not renewable”. A Copper wire is comparable much easier to recycle, melt it down and cast it again, recycled it is. I agree with you about trolley omnibusses. I would add to the argument. The electric bus is more or less still a development platform, there are a lot more improvements to be done, meanwhile the trolley omnibus is a decades proven technology. Because we need green transport now not tomorrow, spending the extras upfront is in my opinion just worth it. Furthermore if you City also operates a tram network you could always argue that the trolley omnibuses is a 15% down payment for a tram. When the demand increases to a thresholds put in rails, remove one of the wires and you have a tram.

[@gabrielstravels-discoverin7368]

We have trolleybuses in Naples (Italy) and we are one of the very few places in the whole world to actually be expanding our system! For example, we converted route 604 (now 204) from diesel to trolleybus, and routes R5 and 168 are shortly to follow (to be renumbered 205 and 206 respectively). Definitely think trolleybuses are the way to go. Problem with batteries is the intense amount of production required, and not environmentally friendly at all

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

My local suburb recently got a bunch of electric buses, seemingly out of the blue. You now see them everywhere and the transition has been almost unnoticeable except for seeing them drive around. While Trolley buses may be the better form of technology, they require quite a bit of political shenanigans and dealing with residents before you can even start to build a network. On the other hand it appears that battery electric buses can just be rolled out under our noses without any fanfare. At the end of the day, while it would be nice to see more trolley buses, I feel like by the time that anyone gets their act together to even consider them, we will see practically all our networks run by battery buses. Note: the buses they are using do not have quick charge capability, they simply run their route then charge back up at the depot when they run low. That doesn't work for all routes but it works for at least 75% of them. While more complex solutions will be required for the other routes, I feel as if we have just entered the mass adoption stage of battery buses where they will soon be everywhere, and cities will only have to try and solve the long routes problem in a few years.

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

Wait until batteries run out and they will need to start changing them at a lot of cost.

[@Srananbloke]

Thank you for giving some attention to my hometown Arnhem. Being born and raised here, I can’t imagine my city without the trolleybus network. And over the past 25 years the city and the province did a lot to invest in the quality and future of the network. Can’t wait for the hybrid trolleybus service to Wageningen to start next year. Unfortunately we also had some closures. Some disused trolley wiring in the south part of the city finally has been removed (after hanging there for more than 20 years without any trolleybus service), so chances any conventional trolleybus lines will run along the roads in question there are very slim now. The trolleybus line to Hoogkamp was cancelled back in 2017 (after they rebuilt the line only 7 years earlier), but the wiring is still there and active. If the new hybrid line to Wageningen will be a succes, I have high hopes Hoogkamp will get trolleybus services again in a similar hybrid form. I was really impressed with the speed, frequencies and reliability of the Zürich trolleybus system. Their system seems to be more focused on connecting outer areas of the city, whereas the tram is the main connector of the outer areas with the city center. And they work perfect together, also when it comes to interchangeability.

[@TramHB]

Perfectly done, thanks!

[@TheDylanJoyce]

2:36 I REALLY appreciate him saying "Two and a half hundred" instead of Two hundred fifty for some reason.... My day really needed that!

[@markusstudeli2997]

Small correction: For Switzerland, I count not 11, but 14 operating trolleybus network systems. One of which is debatable (La Chaux-de-Fonds), because it's just re-opening this year after a 10 year intermediate period of closure. These trolleybuses indeed see a revival in recent years, with a large ridership and many technical innovations. One line just passes by my house, and I don't mind the noise at all; they are more quiet than some of the cars passing. Here's the list: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_Switzerland

[@tintin_999]

One downside of trolleybuses, they are two quiet sometimes. I almost got killed by one in Goldbrunnenplatz when I first moved to Zurich as I was going to step out onto the street but was looking the wrong way (due to being from downunder) and couldn't hear it coming. Luckily my mate grabbed me and prevented me stepping out in front of it.

[@maxwyss7447]

Well, actually, we have to count 13 systems; while La Chaux-de-Fonds is phasing in, Schaffhausen is phasing out… Schaffhausen obviously fell for the Irizar eye candy… Somehow fortunate that La Chaux-de-Fonds left the wires up after taking them down in the city centre because of big style rebuilding. And with only very limited effort, they could re-energise them, and run tests with a vehicle borrowed from Biel. Together with the need for renewal of the more than 30 years old vehicles in Neuchâtel, transN could stitch together a substantial order, where deliveries are supposed to start later this year.

[@markusstudeli2997]

@@tintin_999 Them being quiet can also be looked at as an asset, but yes, not if you''ve recently moved from the British Isles or down-under... glad you survived the first few months on Zürich's streets!

[@dougbrowning82]

Prior to the pandemic, Winnipeg was testing battery electric buses. Since the pandemic, nothing has been seen or heard of them.

[@abrr2000]

I 100% agree. Sometimes the solution to future problems is unappretiated technologies of the past.

[@markusstudeli2997]

The way to go is to combine the two, like shown with your Solingen example: Until recently, some trolley buses had auxiliary diesel motors to maneuver around bus yards, parts without overhead wires or obstacles on their regular lines. Now, these auxiliary motors can be replaced by batteries that can be recharged via the overhead wires. These batteries are rather small and lighter than an auxiliary motor with fuel, and usually don't have a wide range, but they allow the buses to reach the next functioning power lines. Unlike diesel motors they don't need start-up time nor an additional fuel supply. What makes these systems additionally attractive is their ability to recuperate energy when braking, which saves both energy and break pads abrasion. The size of the battery packs can be adapted to the specific needs of a system. In Salzburg, for example, one trolley line extends far beyond the city overhead wire system into a suburb. The bus runs and recharges first under the wire system of the city and then runs autonomously on the country road out to the suburb for a total of more than 20 km. Employing these dual mode buses offers easy solutions for example when it comes to opening routes that cross a railway line with conflicting overhead wires, or underneath low bridges with insufficient clearance to install overhead wires.

[@Tupolev_Works]

I see Trolleybusses every Day at Work, Our little Trolleybus system survived because Esslingen was once Test-City for the Mercedes-Benz Duobusses of the O 305 and O 405 GTD Type. Starting next year, the currently 10 Overheadwire/Battery Duobusses will be joined by 46 more Overheadwire/Battery Duobusses and the Wires will be extended in some locations. The SVE even bought back the last ever Build O 405 GTD as an historic Trolleybus. After 11 Years No. 327 was back home.

[@maxwyss7447]

Pretty good video! Some additional comments: • Switzerland has 13 active trolleybus systems; all of them use either single- or double-articulated vehicles. There are no more standard size trolleybuses in operation in Switzerland. This can be understood in the way that trolleybus (especially the bi-articulated kind) is in the top range for the operation field of buses. If you have to get beyond the feasible capacity, you have to go rail-based. • The results of the research with the SwissTrolley Plus lead to the development of a sophisticated energy/battery management system, which takes into account the topography of the line, in order to get all energy created with regenerative braking into the battery (instead of braking resistors or the overhead wires). So, it makes sure that the battery is sufficiently discharged before a downhill section of the line, and that it is becomes fully charged at its end. The effect of this system is that the energy consumed from the overhead wires can be reduced by about 25%. • It took VBZ only a few thousand franks in infrastructure investment to electrify a specific line from diesel to BTB with IMC operation (well, this line ran under wire for about half its length already). • The video mentioned it already, the manufacturers never list range in unrestricted mode (meaning that all consumers are active), but always in restricted (or emergency) mode, where all non-essential consumers are switched off. A rule of thumb by VBZ is that you design the vehicles around unrestricted mode with 2.8 kWh/km (single-articulated). • In St. Gallen, extending the overhead line network by 20% allowed to double the network length operated with electric vehicles. So, it should be a no-brainer for systems having already trolleybuses in operation to expand with BTBs with IMC.

[@caran26]

Well done video, interesting and well presented, with also many interesting comments

[@cityforall]

Thank you very much!

[@pbilk]

I would love to see more of these trolleybuses along regional roads in my city in Canada. We recently developed a tram line down the centre of the whole city. I personally would love to see more tram lines or even mass passenger rail service along regional roads, especially since you don't have the micro particles from rubber tires. However, if trolleybuses can get more cars off the road the better. Reduce the micropollution with one bus but removing many cars is a step in the right direction.

[@sirBrouwer]

if you can have the trolleybuses link in to the tram network on the parts they already exist. you could have one of those more semi trolly systems. like lines above when available but you don't need lines all the time. reducing the cost of building them all at once.

[@dougbrowning82]

Vancouver still has 13 trolley bus routes, with a fleet of 262 units, including 74 articulates. The latest of which were purchased in 2016 from Winnipeg based New Flyer Industries. Vancouver also has an extensive autonomous electric light rail system. Toronto has 9 tram lines on an 82kn network throughout the city, as well as a metro system. And Montreal also has a metro system. Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa all have light rail.

[@ragellejean]

@@dougbrowning82 The current fleet of trolley buses in Vancouver came into service around 2006/2007 and should be reaching retirement by the latter half of the decade. And if I’m not mistaken, there are ~14 routes lol

[@xymaryai8283]

Trolleybuses should always be retained, Battery buses should only supplement them, and should be equipped with trolley poles too so they can charge while the fully charged ones can go off grid. the highest demand systems should have their lanes made exclusive or be converted to Trams like we have in Melbourne, Australia. i wish we had more trolleybuses here instead of buses, suburban/intercity ones would be amazing

[@cityforall]

Yep, that's very good synergy

[@xymaryai8283]

​@@cityforalli know its better to stick with proven technologies, but the 2 wire systems are still clumsy, theres a reason why trams quickly adopted pantographs, and while yes they have the tracks that they can use for return current, hopefully we discover some reliable way that trolleybuses (or maybe they'll be called trambuses) can use tram catenary systems

[@cityforall]

@@xymaryai8283 you are talking about Translohr system, but it's actually worse than normal tram.

[@dougbrowning82]

@@xymaryai8283 One advantage of trolley buses over trams is their ability to move to the curb to load/unload, and move around other road traffic. The swivelling trolley poles are adept at these manoeuvres.

[@xymaryai8283]

@@cityforall oh, nevermind then i am not a fan of the Translohr

[@maneatingsquirel]

Love your videos! Just subscribed!

[@cityforall]

That's great! I'm happy!

[@x-90]

In Philadelphia trolley buses are being used as trams are being phased out. It’s great with a trolley system already built in

[@bcshelby4926]

...one city in the States that uses dual mode trolleybuses (electric/diesel) is Seattle. Sadly their neighbour to the south where I live (Portland) dismantled it's trolleybus network decades ago and plans to go all battery electric. by 2035. The city does have a fairly extensive LRT network (particularly for its size) as well as two street tram lines. Sadly only a handful of cities in the country here still have trolleybus networks, the largest being San Francisco followed by Seattle.

[@ssiddarth]

Great one 👌

[@canardeur8390]

In-Motion-Charging (IMC) trolleybuses are the real game changers! Coming from a city where we used to have trolleybuses, and we will have them again next year with IMC-trolleybuses, I can tell for sure that you end up not paying attention anymore to overhead wires. For decades, companies specialized in overhead wires have been developing technologies enabling these wires to remain discrete. Most disturbing could be those "spider webs" implied by switches. But again, with IMC trolleybuses, we could remove these and cross these sections in battery mode like they do in Beijing next to the Tiananmen Square.

[@pattycarljackson]

where I live in the US the state has been working on getting all city buses over to electric and they have been moving pretty quickly to do it and its nice to see especially in the bigger cities and even highway rest stops using solar panels its pretty cool.

[@qjtvaddict]

Nice😊

[@dougbrowning82]

Van Hoole is testing a double decker, battery electric motor coach on a long distance, intercity run from California to Florida. Their won't be any paying passengers, just invited company officials on this run. The bus will be charging at standard, Tesla supercharging stations along the way.

[@Techno-Universal]

Actually the best one is a hybrid of the two that uses super capacitors instead of lithium ion batteries! So it can operate like a trolley bus on dedicated busway parts of their routes while being able to run off wire for a significant amount of their routes where they may have to share the road with other traffic! ::

[@CosmicSeeker69]

super capacitors ROCK!

[@scottrichards3587]

Light rail always is more efficient due to elimination of the rolling resistance of tyres

[@mdhazeldine]

One of the best videos I've seen on this topic! It would be great if we could get some trolleybuses back in the UK, but there seems to be no will for it unfortunately. London is all-in on double decker hybrid and battery electric buses for some reason. By the way, I would not use the word "autonomous" because it makes me think of "driverless", which is a totally different thing to what you were talking about.

[@cityforall]

Thanks! Glad that you liked it! BTW I guess you are from the UK? Can I ask what are the most recent urban news there? :)

[@saibotyurico]

This video's title should be rewritten as: Why are Trolleybuses so great. And why I don't like electric buses.

[@catprog]

16:30 The metals are used again and again unlike oil which is used only once.

[@cityforall]

*if you have recycling industry

[@Brauiz90]

I live in Salzburg, Austria and here they have a trolleybus system since the 1950s or maybe even earlier. Today they use 4 different types of Trolleybusses - Van Hool, Solaris (2 different ones) and Hess - the Hess ones are used on lines with limited overhead lines (on at least one line the last 1-2 km don't have overhead wires, so the bus runs of its built-in batery. And by the way - the electricity is won by water energy plants in the local river Salzach. And there's one electric bus since last year to run on a local line out of the city. at 19:55 we can see one of Salzburg's old trolley busses sold to the Ukraine, because of the coloration and the bus number (197) on the side - trolley busses in operation here start at the 200 numbers... I always wondered what the 100s were like.

[@cityforall]

That old trolleybuses are now operating in Ivano-Frankivsk. And as far as I remember they also have some vehicles from other Austrian cities. I have to check which exactly.

[@Brauiz90]

@@cityforall Nice to know they still run to this day.

[@smileyeagle1021]

Something that, if you mentioned it, you really glossed over it, the battery buses weight really wear down roads a LOT faster than trolley buses or even diesel buses (which are already heavier than trolley buses). My local city never had a trolley bus system, but in an effort to go green has been heavily investing in (battery) electric buses. Not only did they not save nearly as much as they thought they would on up front costs due to the high costs of the vehicles and the charging infrastructure, but they aren't saving overall on maintenance, they've just swapped maintaining overhead wires for extra maintenance on the roads from extra wear and tear from super heavy buses. Also, and this is a very important thing for cities to factor in, battery buses kind of suck, let me rephrase that, they really really suck. The heater doesn't keep up in the winter, the air conditioning doesn't keep up in the summer, all because the manufacturer had to skimp on the HVAC system to maximize the range of the bus, the acceleration isn't as fast as a trolley bus, it isn't even as fast as a diesel bus, and while part of this is that it is a new tech still, they are so unreliable that our city has had to take some of our old diesels out of retirement (not even our hybrids, just straight diesels) because so many of the electrics are out of service at any given time. Of course, we've learned nothing and we're doubling down on not investing in overhead wires and instead investing in hydrogen fuel cell buses and a hydrogen electrolysis station. Oh well, at least the buses will be lighter and won't damage the roads as quickly.

[@cityforall]

Wow, that's really interesting, thanks for sharing this. May I ask you what city are you talking about?

[@smileyeagle1021]

@@cityforall Reno Nevada. The most recent example of the road wear and tear was a $3.25 million project that, in fairness did also include a new rather large bus shelter and sidewalk improvements, to build a multiple feet thick concrete pad at a busy bus stop because of the damage the bus sitting there while passengers were boarding did to the asphalt. I can't find anything in the public records on how much of the project cost was the bus shelter and sidewalk improvements and how much was the roadway repairs, however the funding source is listed as being from fuel taxes, so I'm fairly certain that legally the majority of the project expense had to be road repairs.

[@maxwyss7447]

Actually, buses are always among the vehicles with the highest axle load (especially when they go into sardine can mode…). As there are (at least in the civilised world) relatively strict limitations on total vehicle weight (in Switzerland 30 t for a single-articulated and 40 t for a double-articulated), it is a tradeoff between passenger capacity and battery capacity… this translates to 200 kWh corresponding to 12 passengers capacity - which in a single-articulated vehicle is about 8% of the capacity. Therefore you will need more BatteryElectric Buses to handle the same line capacity (we talk between 15 and 30%!). And this can easily compensate the additional cost for overhead lines…

[@domesticcat1725]

"the overhead wires could look out of place around historical architecture" Yeah, Brad's Ford F250 and a four storey parking garage would look way more in place

[@cityforall]

That was comparing trolleybuses and battery buses, Brad's Ford F250 is out of competition :)

[@PrenonNon0]

i live in Switzerland, the country of trolleybuses (there are some even in small cities), and i fully agree

[@FromtheWindowSeat]

Good video. 👍

[@cityforall]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@jeffwindrim975]

I remember we had electric trolley busses in Toronto then one year they did away with them and just put regular busses on the routes. Now just a memory from the past.

[@obelic71]

You forgot to mention that trolley busses have the big advantage of high acceleration. the 750 VDC network (also used in tramsystems) can deliver a lot of power.

[@cityforall]

Yes, you are right

[@wyqtor]

Yeah, they are especially good in hilly cities.

[@EpicThe112]

The two technologies can be combined it's called in motion charging a battery electric bus can charge using the overhead wires 750v DC or 600v DC in addition to its battery charge on the Depot side. Vossloh Kipe has this.

[@cityforall]

Actually that is what I've told in the conclusion :)

[@EpicThe112]

Thank you for telling me about that if you are looking for a system in the United States that has the diesel for emergency detours it's Philadelphia ​@@cityforall

[@me-yb4uz]

can you share to link brochure that you mentioned in Zurich swiss part.

[@cityforall]

I'have downloaded it quite a long time ago. Now I can't google it. I could send it to you via e-mail, just PM me your address in Twitter please

[@thgserra]

Tip for a next video. Talk about Trolleybuses in Brazil. Especially in the city of São Paulo.

[@Talon5516-tx3ih]

Busses are bumpy as you can see at many points in this video and the more busses there are the more the road wears out and makes the problem worse and expensive to fix. Tram rails are smooth and last a lot longer which is much more comfortable for passengers. Trams require less energy, because steel on steel has much less friction and although trolley/battery busses aren't spewing out diesel fumes tyres still produce particle pollution and make the air in cities worse. If a route is used enough to make it worth building the infrastructure for a trolley bus then perhaps it's worth putting in tram lines. On top of that a trolley bus requires two cables: a tram only one. Which one is the future? Trams. Trolley busses are at best a budget option.

[@corkmans8846]

I’m pretty sure there’s like one or no manufacturers actually making trolley buses in the US. This makes it increasingly difficult for trolleybuses to be integrated into US urban transport, especially when you consider that federal grant programs for clean buses seem to award only battery or hydrogen buses.

[@cityforall]

Wikipedia says that there is one - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillig But Switzerland also has one but they don't have problems with that. I suppose more difficult is to deal with norms and import duties

[@evanstonbalce9588]

New Flyer Industries or NFI makes trolleybuses, a Canadian company which has factories both in the US and Canada

[@mattsmocs3281]

The smallest US city to have trolleybuses was Wilkesbarre which had its positives but was partly used as a way to end trolley service when national city lines took over. They only continued to run the trolley buses till 1958 when they managed to get a hold repealed that forced them to continue using them. Some routes that had trolleybuses are no longer served today due to tight curves and steep grades as the modern natural gas buses struggle on these lines. Tho compared. The big downside that both electric and diesel busses suffered was the lack of private ROW which the streetcars had across 90 percent of the system. The buses are always stuck in traffic.

[@knowledgeiswealth.]

Cheap af transportation exist Politicians : i can't see it im blind

[@hobog]

Trolleybus chads represent! Battery-extended trolleybus chads represent! Hilly terrain -> trolleybuses without question

[@SiqueScarface]

The first city to operate trolleybusses (with trolley poles) was not Leeds, but Königstein(Sachsen) in Germany in 1901, but operations closed in 1904 already. The second one was the Industriebahn Wurzen (1905 - 1928), which interestingly was transporting goods, not passengers.

[@wintter5963]

In Romania, the city of Constanta had 11 lines of trolleybuses and 5 lines of tram but they closed all of them around 2010 and replaced them with bellarusian Maz 103/107/203 buses. The trolleybus sistem was covering about 80% of the city, only about five lines had diesel busses in exploatation

[@cityforall]

They close both trams and trolleybuses? Wow

[@wintter5963]

@@cityforall unfortunatelly yes

[@cityforall]

OMG And how it goes? Seems that I should make a video about it.

[@wintter5963]

@@cityforall Now the administration bought 20 BYD K9UB electric busses that operate on 3 lines: 100 ( former tram line that goes from the train station to holiday village, ) , 100C- railway station - comercial center tom ( carrefour ) and 43M- railway station - comercial center vivo ( auchan ). I can tell you wich were the lines that had trolley / tram if you want and when they were discontinued. I also need to say that they retired 15 trolleys Rocar De Simon wich were relatively new (8 years old)! That is a crime !!!

[@cityforall]

@@wintter5963 And how did the residents of the city react to this?

[@russko118]

here in verona they are building that kind of trolleybus, articulated and with only partial catenary to avoid ruining the historic centre wiew

[@BcroG11]

Would it not be possible to place the charging wires for trolleybuses on/under the ground?

[@cityforall]

There are some experiments with underground in-motion chargers in South Korea, but at a moment it's much more expensive and less efficient

[@enemanozzle]

The future will be the combination of both technologies.

[@martindonadio9198]

In my city, Mendoza Argentina, we operated trolleybuses until 2016 when, due to very unfortunate political decisions, the service was suppressed and replaced by electric buses that cover 8% of the total network that El Trole used to cover, in addition, the network itself was always renewed and expanded, not counting the environmental and operational cost of battery electric buses, the example is Solingen and we also have good memories of that system since the old double-axle Trolleybuses made in the 60s in Solingen arrived almost entirely and helped to modernize the network and expand it in 1989 (our rez had only 3 lines and was operated by Nissan Toshiba units from Japan from the 60s and ZIU units from the Soviet Union but insufficient for expansion and modernization) This month elections are being held for Governor and both candidates from the Opposition to the current management that closed the service propose to reopen it and prevent the cable line from continuing to be roamed as in Dorrego or the Barrio San Martín, in addition to the fact that the maintenance of the cables is accompanied by the maintenance of the public trees of the city, something that no mayor in the area does and that on days of Zonda wind (warm wind typical of this area of Argentina) is essential for the safety of passers-by cars public transport TV lines internet electricity circulation of vehicles in case of emergency and the operation of the trolleybus itself

[@cityforall]

The upcoming video will be exactly about Mendoza!

[@cityforall]

Here is the video about Mendoza - kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppmXZnWfpJtshdEsi=FLEuGsrWX0l9-Tml

[@no-damn-alias]

In my opinion that most cities could run trolleybuses with few overhead cables if you have trolleybus with battery for ~100km range. Cheaper and easier than trying to go electric on battery only. Especially if you already have a tram system so 750v infrastructure already exist. Charge on bigger roads where multiple lines go down the same road and on big interchanges. If needed some charging infrastructure on the outskirt final stops when there's some turn around time. Also you save money on brake discs and pads. Also no need to dedicate time, work force and infrastructure for refueling. Also no oil changes etc.

[@wyqtor]

The advantage of buses is that you can easily reconfigure lines. That is lost when switching to trolleybuses. Trams are the best for fixed medium-capacity routes, as they are more efficient (reduced wheel friction, mostly dedicated right-of-way, at least outside city centers). Also, tram can be considerably longer than trolleybuses and have a higher capacity per vehicle.

[@boomerix]

Yeah, but that is relatively irrelevant in most of Europe. City and rural bus lines my see a slight route change maybe once every 20 years.

[@ultrasoft5555]

"overhead wires spoiling the view" - this argument is obviously invalid until a single private car runs in the streets: nothing destroys the view more than cars in the city

[@Trainrhys]

And the wires have been there longer than a lot of the buildings

[@qzg7857]

I really love how Solaris looks like

[@marktownend8065]

Great video and I fully agree with your conclusions. With a smaller battery required by the trolley buses for limited off wire-excursions, different chemistry might be employed that is not focussed entirely on maximum capacity/kg; some of these alternatives have better charge cycle life, can charge quicker and are less prone to fire than typical car derived cells. I noted a few years ago that Moscow made the mistake of abandoning what had been the largest network in the world. Their hoped for total replacement by battery buses has proved over-optimistic and diesel vehicles are now being used in many cases. Quite insane, like some other recent Russian decisions!

[@heronimousbrapson863]

Mention could be made of gyrobusses. Oerlikon of Switzerland produced these in the mid-20th century,, and wete extensively used in Belgium.

[@cityforall]

I have an idea of video about different strange technologies in public transport and girobus definitely should be one of them

[@SuperKurvaszad]

Great video! You didn't mention Hungary (only 3 cities have trolley busses), but Budapest has a pretty good trolley system as well, so it's worth checking out, if someone is interested. The terminus of line 74 even had a little cameo at 4:20

[@wyqtor]

Budapest also has the longest trams in the world.

[@DdW85]

Trolley buses and electric buses are different concepts with different economics. Trolley buses make sense on trunk routes, with frequent services and enough paying customers. Just like trams and metros, it requires an investment for each piece of route or track you want to run. For example, Amsterdam has a network of metros and trams to cover the trunk routes. There is a vast network of complementary buses that serves the city, the airport and its suburbs. It wouldn't make economic sense to build wires on all these dozens of routes. Battery-powered buses made it posdible to switch from diesel to electric, which otherwise would have remained diesel. It costs infrastructure at the hubs only, which is shared between many different routes.

[@pmaragoudakis]

I wish we expand and modernize our trolley buses here in Athens instead of importing battery buses.

[@dacicus2978]

I my city we had before neoplan trolleys which was preatty big,articulated ,and recently they change all of them with polish solaris small troleys

[@victorrogerberghanel5237]

Also in Spain we have trolleybuses. For example in Castellón de la Plana. Modern and confortable.

[@dijikstra8]

I agree, trolleybuses may require an infrastructure investment, but the buses will be cheaper due to the lack of, or smaller, batteries. I think the ideal would be to install overhead wires on trunk lines where a lot of buses go, and then use smaller batteries to serve branch lines that only see buses every ten minutes or so. Buses that only go in the inner city may do without a battery (or with smaller batteries) whereas suburban buses would require somewhat larger batteries. In general due to the lack of batteries and the giant task of electrifying the world, we should be conservative with where to use batteries and where to use other solutions. (and that of course also applies to making electric cars smaller, why waste so many precious battery cells on giant trucks when the same cells can power two or three smaller cars?)

[@beardyface8492]

Haven't watched yet since it's a silly question, it really depends on the local situation which suits best, furthermore it's very easy to engineer a bus that can operate in either mode & switch between them as needed.

[@etbadaboum]

5:22 I didn't know Solaris made trolley buses 12:45 What's brand is that?

[@cityforall]

It's also Solaris

[@etbadaboum]

@@cityforall Ah but of course! Thanks. Good for them.

[@bazza3643]

The city fathers of the city of Wellington In New Zealand could learn a lot from this video.

[@cityforall]

I have an idea to make video about it later, that's a really interesting case

[@Jenci]

Good video! Still, you didn't mention Hungary it only has 3 cities. Now days it uses hybrid "trolley" and "battery" bus which it is more efficient to take detour and less consume battery.

[@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257]

if you need to move 1500 people per hour (point a to point b) use bus(capacity 120) . if you need to move 3600 people per hour use trams or articulated buses (capacity 300 with 3 cars). but if you need to move 28,800 people per hour use the metro (capacity 2400 with 8 cars)

[@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter]

You skipped 7.200, 10.800, 14.400, 21.600... ;) For 30k a full metro is overkill, AGT or monorails are more economical to build and operate, and a higher frequency is better for passengers than higher capacity lower frequency trains.

[@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257]

@@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter or we call that LRT

[@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter]

@@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257 sure, if you don't mind a higher cost and higher noise of the rails.

[@komisiantikorupsikoruptord6257]

@@My-Opinion-Doesnt-Matter where you life men. Cars are a source of air pollution and noise pollution

[@zeugundso]

Medium to long-term battery busses will probably win out. The cost of creating and maintaining the cable infrastructure is quite high and battery buses continue to get cheaper and more capable. Existing networks will probably survive for the next couple of years, but even there could be a point where it will no longer be economical.

[@maxwyss7447]

Not really; the weight issue of the batteries remains, and for a urban-bus-grade battery, the prospects for weight reduction are very slow. The other problem, build garage space with sufficient power supply for Overnight Charging, remains as well. There is only very limited economy of scale when it comes to charging buses overnight. OTOH, because of the capability of autonomy, the expensive parts of a trolleybus overhead grid, complex squares with switches and crossings, can be avoided, and the overhead lines can be limited to simple linear entities, which don't cost much to build and even less to maintain.

[@olezhkoo]

Okay, I must admit that I only clicked on this video because I saw Kyiv in the preview. Cheers!

[@etienne6641]

Can you tell us more technical information about the bus? Battery capacity, range, where the motors are? I am curious to know about the drivetrain since it new technology. Thank you very much.

[@SiqueScarface]

The problem with Cobalt is confined to a single type of batteries, Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt batteries. Those are mostly used in mobile devices, because they allow for the most compact built. In car batteries. Cobalt use is far lower than 10 years ago, and now, you can get the same energy density with only a tenth of the Cobalt usage. Other battery types like Lithium-Ironphosphate don't use any Cobalt all, and no Nickel either. All they use is Ironphosphate, which is quite abundant everywhere and so harmless, that you can literally pour a teaspoon full of Ironphosphate in your morning coffee and drink it without fear of poisoning. Ironphosphate batteries don't burn. They will of course melt down if heated up, but so will the whole bus anyway. And they are mechanically stable. Drive a nail through a Lithium-Ironphosphate battery, and it will lose some of its capacity, but still be working. Biggest disadvantage: Lithium-Ironphosphate batteries have a foamy structure, making their size larger than Lithium-NMC. Thus they won't be used in mobile devices. And in low-floor busses, you have to find a place to store the large (but not necessarily heavier) batteries inside the bus. The water usage in Lithium mining is also more complex. The grade of water purity you need is far less than the quality necessary for agriculture or drinking water. You can use industrial waste water for instance. In Chile, there are legal limits on the usage of waste water, which forced the mining operater to use fresh water instead.

[@Ignacio.Romero]

I can't believe you didn't mention Santiago de Chile, the city with the most electric buses in the world outside of China

[@counterfit5]

Martha's Vineyard is electrifying their busses, but using inductive chargers in the road along a couple streets.

[@giovannigarcia9972]

I do sometimes wonder if it's worth putting up the infrastructure for trolleybuses, then it's just worth putting in trams instead. Although I wonder if the wires for trolleybuses could be used on a future tram system?

[@__JH_]

In a small but rapidly growing city, what do you think would be the best option for a public transportation line? Tram, BRT, trolleybus or conventional electric buses? (Considering that it would be approximately 10-20km and more than 90k people would use that line everyday)

[@cityforall]

It depends of lots of factors - budget, city planning, street conditionc etc.

[@RRW359]

We should make battery busses that are easily convertible for trolleys. If you are a growing City you will first use batteries, then if you get a particularly busy area you can have them charge as they go and even operate 24/7 while charging. Once the network gets large enough they should be replaced with articulated and/or DD busses that have small emergency batteries if they have one at all.

[@domramsey]

Cool video, although some of your information about batteries is a little out of date. Modern battery technologies are both more energy dense and less reliant on things like cobalt. Also worth noting that when batteries reach the end of their life, they are usually converted to large batteries for the home (like the Tesla PowerWall) where they can go on serving useful lives for many, many years.

[@giovannicecchinato8217]

in Padua they use some hybrid bus/tram the french Translohr system a tram with one rail track and rubber tires

[@maxwyss7447]

They are weird in Padua… always have been… Translohr essentially exists because a big company with headquarters in Clermont-Ferrand threatened to leave if they installed real tramways…

[@warmike]

Trolleybuses or battery buses: why not both? In my city (Saint-Petersburg) the battery buses are operated by the enterprise that runs buses and they replace regular buses on their routes. Trolleybuses, on the other hand, are run by a different operator and have their own routes (they often have the same number as a bus that they intersect with, but a completely different route, so an unsuspecting tourist can confuse them)

[@o_s-24]

Same situation here in Yerevan. It's so annyoing, like, just add a "T" in front of the number...

[@tintin_999]

@RMTransit mentions in his video on trolley vs battery buses that trolleybuses have lower speeds due to the risk of de-wiring. I think the future will be interesting as Solid Oxide Fuel Cells might improve enough to become viable. It will then be a question of whether it is cheaper to maintain a network of overhead wires, or run buses on (probably) green Butanol (produced using cheap nuclear heat from 4th gen reactors). I read somewhere (might not be true) that a large part of the cost of an overhead wiring network is the crossover wires/shunts etc at intersections and curved bits of road. DiaLOGIKa are making a machine vision rewiring system to enable the bus to automatically dewire and rewire in motion without any input from the driver. Or even just have one set of overhead wires on a two way street and have one bus automatically put it pulls down as they pass each other. This could perhaps lower the cost of the overhead wire network (if it actually works outside a rendering). Here is a video of it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4HIm5qars6LkJY

[@cityforall]

About the speed - as far as I saw in Zurich or Geneva trolleybuses are seem to have the same speed, as another traffic, they are not slower at all. I guess it depends from the quality of catenary wires and road traffic organisation.

[@user-qu8or7vl7v]

Several trolleybus routes can share the same corridor on busy streets, which makes the investment better. There is only one issue: if diffrent trollrybus routes split at intersections, the cables can get very complicated. A solution is preserve the cables for the main line and remove the else. Routes on the brach line is required to cross the intersection using backup battery with poles down. This can ensure the main line routes run without slowing down, but branch line routes will need an additional stop to reconnect the poles to the cables. This is a trade-off.

[@chch6874]

It makes nothing but sense. In some places they have the trolley bus run partly on the tram network. I went to the trolleybus museum in the midlands and I was told that the UK government has closed their mind to it. I would combine some of the routes with kerb sided steering, which, as with trams, allows much smaller gaps between vehicles. Kerbside guided tracks have the advantage of a tram, that they can run through a large park, making impossible for ordinary vehicles to use the track and the gap in the middle can be greened with vegetation and low growth flowers. The making of the tracks can be cheap as large scale 3d printing can be employed on a seemless operation with a choice of materials like concrete or suitable plastics

[@tomaszjasinski4199]

Why not both? In Lublin, Poland there are new trolley buses with batteries. They are able to go for a few kilometers only on battery where there is no electric line. When it goes back on track it connects to the line again.

[@cityforall]

Looks like you haven't watched the whole video - in the conclusion I've told exactly the same.

[@lassepeterson2740]

Trolley bus is better but duo trolley / battery or even diesel backup seems ok . Pure battery is just too heavy and inefficeint .