60 years of bad decisions - how WELLINGTON lost its trolleybus system?

[@yorkhawk]

The most ridiculous things was , that when they started to operate the electric buses (only a small percentage of the total bus fleet) they tried to tout them as a wonderful green solution. Completely ignoring the fact they were replacing the even greener trolley buses.

[@cityforall]

Maybe there was a lobby from battery bus manufacturers? Where they are buying those buses now? (I guess in China)

[@Novusod]

There is nothing green about battery busses. Mining Lithium creates tons of pollution. And then when the batteries wear out they turn into highly toxic waste that is difficult to dispose of.

[@cityforall]

@@Novusod I know, there is a separate video about it on the channel

[@krissp8712]

​@@cityforallyeah, mostly CRRC

[@MusikCassette]

@@cityforall I mean the obvious best solution for an electric Bus system is having trolly lines and batteries. That way reach is not a problem, because you can load your batteries while driving. You have all the flexibility you want and you can simplify your trolly liner system.

[@noobartz0890]

4:00 i think that the fact that trolleybus infra can still work after this much time without repairs is showing its efficiency by itself lol

[@cityforall]

Exactly. I suppose that e-buses without a maintenance have 0 chances to survive 60 years :)

[@ooRobertoo]

but it's not flexible. I can't reroute incase of roadworks or accidents.

[@cityforall]

@@ooRobertoo you can if you have moderntrolleybus with a battery for autonomous operation. In fact Wellington trolleybuses could operate without a wires.

[@noobartz0890]

@@ooRobertoo well temporary wires are a thing they were invented since forever as were trolleybuses another idea is to use a truck to tug them off the wires sure no electricity but it's usually isn't that long

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

@@ooRobertoononsense. Get informed yourself before say some as stupid as that.

[@Ахалай-щ3ц]

Here in Moscow we had our trolleybus systems shut down three years ago. Btw, it was the biggest in the world and we had lost it because of political will to buy new e-buses. Now most of the main routs are operated by diesel busses as they are out of range for e-buses. just pure stupidity

[@brettharrington4333]

so what you a saying is you guys a just as fucked up as us

[@ericwolff6059]

The overhead wires were replaced around 2012 and cost tens of millions of dollars. New substations were put in to the system to prevent overloads in the central city. It was mainly down to one elected councilor on Wellington Regional Council who did not like trolley buses. Funnily enough he was the head of the transport committee. It was a diabolical decision by a tiny minority. Wellington City Council was opposed to the decision, but it is the Regional Council who has control over public transport here.

[@ericwolff6059]

I should add, it may have cost tens of millions of dollars to replace and upgrade all of the overhead wiring, but it cost just as much to tear it all down again. An absolute and total waste of ratepayers money

[@cityforall]

OMG, then this decision looks even more stupid.

[@cityforall]

INSTITUTIONAL FAILURE!

[@Emperorvalse]

I thought the substations needed upgrading rather than the overhead wires which had been replaced, well in the Eastern suburbs. I also remember that there were 2 new trolley buses introduced to test for the next replacement/expansion. These were the 2 converted for battery and maybe natural gas? When I moved to Wellington in 2005, I hated the old trolley buses they were constantly breaking over if 1 broken-down it could gridlock the system making me late for work heaps of times, to the extent that I got off at the start of the city and could walk faster The new ones were infinitely better, unless you were going up a hill, eg Karori, and they just crawled, I always wondered if the fact the old motors reused were just not powerful enough.

[@simonwood6932]

You are correct that the substations, which dated back to the early 1900s needed replacing. However as they had been sold off to private electricity utility company in the late 1908s, said company was not prepared to fund their replacement. This meant that the Greater Wellington Regional Council, and the NZ Transport Agency would have had to fund the approx $60million cost , which they were not prepared to do. In the end this was a correct decision as the rapid development of battery electric bus technology now means that a higher proportion of bus services in the Wellington region are now operated by electric buses than the trolley buses ever did.

[@mayfurrnz]

It's a sad irony that the Wellington trolley bus network was killed off with similar justifications for killing off the Wellington tram network in favour of trolley buses... Heck, Wellington should have done what Melbourne did and not only kept the tram network, but extended it and modernised it! 1964: "Trams are old-fashioned and cost too much to run! Trolley buses are the way of the future..." 2015: "Trolley buses are old-fashioned and cost too much to run! Battery buses are the way of the future..." 😞

[@cityforall]

***YOU ARE HERE*** 20XX: "Electric buses are old-fashioned and cost too much to run! Private cars are the way of the future..." :)

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

@@cityforallor better... 20XX: battery buses are crap and cost us a ton of money for a short life span. Bring back trolleybuses!

[@cityforall]

@@MarceloBenoit-trenes I can hardly believe it...

[@unconventionalideas5683]

@@cityforall I actually think cars will not be considered the way of the future anywhere, at least if where I live is to be taken as an example. Here in the US, 42% of lawfully eligible (as in, those not banned for medical reasons or driving really badly, for example) 19 year-olds chose to forego driver's licenses as of 2022, the most recent year I have been able to find data for as of this post. That figure has risen every year since at least 1983, when the share of the US population holding a license to drive peaked. Since 2011, no demographic has been exempt. Furthermore, the share of those with a license who own a car is also dropping every year, and the share of households owning cars has dropped slightly; the share of households owning multiple cars has dropped particularly quickly. So while we in the US have a totally different start point than many other places worldwide, I do not think that people really will continue to drive far into the future.

[@ytzpilot]

As soon as tram lines were removed, they will never return, it was cheaper to lay them down from the Late 1800s through to the 1930s. Today the costs and standards are next level New Zealand would have to become a major petroleum exporter like Norway to pay for it

[@geography_czek5699]

This is indeed a nonsensical and tragic decision to make in such times when electrification of public transport should be a priority. It is such a weird contrast to what I can see happening in cities around me. I live in Czechia, a central European country which is not exactly the richest and pretty significant number of people here are quite sceptical about anything which has something to do with reducing our impact on the environment. But even so, there are towns with a population of 100000 or even fewer that were able to expand their trolleybus networks in recent years. For example, there is a town of about 15000 (Mariánské Lázně) which have a trolleybus network and wants to get rid of ICE buses with the help of partial trolleybuses. If Wellington had kept its network and used it to power partial trolleybuses, which then could serve much broader areas using accumulators, it could have reached its electrification goals much quicker and maybe even cheaper.

[@cityforall]

In fact, the world is full of examples of adequate use and development of trolleybuses. And the Czech Republic is indeed one of the world leaders in this regard.

[@brettharrington4333]

there is one reason he did not bring up there was not enough electricity to run the system going forward as the trains went to electricity

[@2bfrank657]

​@@brettharrington4333what do you mean? Wellington has had electric trains for ages.

[@brettharrington4333]

@@2bfrank657 fifty plus years all the units a electric the line to pram is elactric the diesel engines drive electric generators that drives the engin the whole number one line was electrified .

[@BayLeafff]

As a Kiwi, thank you for covering this! By presenting this info so well I think you're genuinely contributing to my country in a way that puts the rest of us to shame. Wellington is a small place, and locals passing this video around could truly make a difference in the long run. Cheers.

[@cityforall]

By the way, I was really surprised that there are no videos telling this story. At least I haven't found any. I had to be the first :)

[@chocoholicmama]

Unfortunately much of the video is untrue. Comparing Wellington's infrastructure to huge cities with large populations is unfair and pointless. A simple fact check can refute a few of the statements made, makes the rest somewhat suspicious.

[@pinkyfull]

@@chocoholicmama Shutup grandpa, I'm sure the rates you saved over 60 years really made up for the fact that all of our water is currently pissing itself into the harbour barely slower than the leaks can be repaired.

[@scaredyfish]

⁠@@chocoholicmamaIt’s beyond pointless to say there are factual errors and then not mention any.

[@tamatirogerson6421]

Unfortunately in too many ways to count, New Zealand since 1991 is nothing but a stupid stupid fking little country that preaches to itself and kicks its own people's views in the face. 99% of all the smart New Zealanders left long ago. The 1% that are left either love the country more than is healthy for them or are stuck here. This video didn't even mention our health system or our roads I don't think. The people we want to stay are all leaving for Australia while Australia sends all the NZ crimes back here that grew up in the Aussie gangs. Of course there's exceptions. But not particularly many. And yes we don't have it as bad as many other countries. But I'm sure we can try and match some of those if someone dates is to 🤦‍♂️😖😖😖

[@nickplosiveli4927]

Public transport here in New Zealand is an absolute tragedy. Only good thing that has happened here is the City Rail Link. The Auckland Light Rail plan supported by Labour and Greens got delayed from 2020 to 2040 and costs went from 4 billion to 20 billion and was then cancelled by the current government. We're not that green, people here love huge SUVs and Pick up trucks, and everyone drives. Only 6% of trips in NZ are taken by public transport. Auckland's rail network completely shut down for 9 months as the railways began to crumble and become unsafe. Wellington's rail lines close many days during the Summer as temperatures above 26 degrees celsius are considered dangerous.

[@cityforall]

That's sad. So looks like New Zealand is quite similar to the USA in this regard. But at the same time somehow managed to create image of eco-friendly country for the rest of the world.

[@cityforall]

Closing rail network in summer? Wow, that's something new for me...

[@Picolinni]

@@cityforallthat’s some thing new for me, and I’m Aussie. We don’t shut our rail lines down on 30°+ days, just slow them down!

[@schalitz1]

​@@cityforallNot that hard to do. Norway has the same reputation, but their main export is oil 😂.

[@williamhuang8309]

@@cityforall Kiwirail got absolutely hammered by the the council (who runs Auckland Transport) and the mayor after there were major delays and cancellations on the Auckland suburban rail network due to "hot weather" when it was barely 28 degrees outside. At the same time, there was an increase in traffic jams on the roads... This happened a few days ago too which is utterly pathetic. A few years ago, Kiwirail tried to delete all electric freight trains from its timetable. ~3/4 of our main line is electrified and that number continues to grow (albeit at a glacial rate), with the only hiccups being the requirement for a loco change at Hamilton and Palmerston North. Yet Kiwirail tried to use the paltry 5 minutes lost during each locomotive change as well as how the electric locomotives were "end of life" (they're not, they just need a refurbishment) as being the reasons why rail wasn't attracting freight, despite ignoring: A) The fact that the electric locomotives have higher power output and can therefore save an equivalent amount of time on the hilly and bendy parts of the line B) The existence of dual power locomotives that can run on both overhead wire and diesel, thereby eliminating the requirement for a loco change while still being able to use the wires. Instead, Kiwirail placed a new order for diesel-only DL class locomotives manufactured by CRRC which have been unreliable and even contained trace amounts of asbestos! C) The fact that Kiwirail has been mothballing parts of the network and making services worse, letting infra deteriorate (thus leading to the Auckland rail shutdowns) and woeful reliability (Wellington suburban rail delays because the track inspection car broke down) D) When dual mode locos were first proposed, they were dismissed as they would be "too heavy" and "too big for our loading gauge" In essence, we nearly pulled a Conrail move and our electric freight trains were only saved because the government shot that proposal down. The electric locos are currently undergoing refurbishment which gives me some hope as to the future of electric freight trains in NZ... Put short, Kiwirail is an agency with so much potential (it's nationalised after all) that's let down with penny pinching management and decades of bad decisions.

[@goldenstarmusic1689]

It is actually shocking how opposite the story of Wellington is to the city of Dayton Ohio, a city which preserved its trolleybus network at a time when little manufacturers in the United States were building them, and when a diesel downgrade was on the table. Excellent video, as a long time fan I'm glad this one is getting picked up by the algorithm better. Consider a video on Dayton Ohio trolleybuses and maybe even the Boston MBTA shutdown of trolleybuses as a followup to this video and your previous Battery vs Trolleybuses video! Keep it up, you're one of my favorite channels on KZbin for this stuff.

[@aussiebloke51]

Public transport should never be privatised.

[@cityforall]

The main question is not who owns the trolleybuses, but who pays for their operation and how. For example, in the Dutch city of Arnhem, trolleybuses are also operated by a private company, but this process is properly organized and everything works fine. By the way, they also had a moment when they were thinking of closing the trolleybus service. You can watch more about it in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4GchJKQib2mm68

[@OpenOutdoors]

Unfortunately for us Wellingtonians. it is all private company's now

[@tamatirogerson6421]

If done right it can be extremely good. But the problem with New Zealand is there's too many New Zealanders in it with their stupidity and arrogance. Govt owned and run in NZ? Are u actually serious they spend all their time dodging accountability. Til we sort that, we're screwed. We've been screwed since 1991 when we outlawed corporal punishment in schools. We're weak. No wonder everyone's fking off to Australia

[@thestigdownunder]

​@cityforall the hard part about privatization in nz is that it's far more corrupt than in European countries. Everytime we sell or lend something to the private sector it has been a disaster. Our power is a prime example of this since privatization our power costs have shot up 6 times what they we're.

[@cubethebubeofficial]

You say that but look at the HK MTR

[@user-kf9cd2di2x]

the ancient diesel buses they rolled out to make up the numbers (because they forgot to plan for the reduction in bus numbers) were so bad that at the end of the schoolday at my highschool the exhaust fumes would create a smog so thick that the first time I saw it I thought one of the buses had caught fire. The city is now losing 40% of its water supply due to leaks in water mains because of these same people who gutted the trolley bus network didn't see the need to maintain the pipes.

[@mirtha1908]

you know the worst thing is that problem was accentuated by mainline pipes being replaced before periferies, resulting in greater pressure reaching the radial network and bursting all the smaller ones 😭

[@m14mclaren]

I'll take things that didn't happen for 40

[@user-kf9cd2di2x]

@@m14mclaren you really think the idea that diesel buses put out smog is far fetched?

[@m14mclaren]

@user-kf9cd2di2x to the extend you described yes, having worked on and around these buses for many years

[@pinkyfull]

but think of the hundreds of dollars a year that grandpa jenkins saved on his rates bill.

[@GerryIsDead]

I live near a Dutch city called Arnhem and that city is the last dutch city that still uses trolleybusses and one of the largest in West-Europe and they are working on a 'Trolleybus 2.0' that will drive under the electrical lines but can uncouple and drive further as a electrical bus

[@cityforall]

Oh, nice! I've mentioned it in one of my previous videos.

[@cityforall]

That's a good example of a modern trolleybus system but unfortunately I haven't been there.

[@with1you23]

I lived in Wellington for 10 years and got very said when they remove the trolleys. The official reason was the cost to update the underground cables which mostly were from the tram era. But the true reason was the PTOM (Public Transport Operation Model). It was a new tender procedures to get cheaper operators to operate and receive subsidies from Central Gov. Around 80% of the operations needs to be tender to a new operator to the lowest bidder. The trolleybus was an impdemiment as to get new operators and the only operator with trolleybuses were Infantril(NZBus). Getting a new trolleybuses would very expensive for a new operator. To break the monoploy of NZ Buses which had a ver ybad relationship with the GWCC (Great Wellington City Council) which is not the same as Wellington City Council. This guy Chris Laidlaw, used to GWCC councilor from Wairarapa region which is outside Wellington city and he as some others on the GWCC and WCC never liked the trolleybuses The company that take a bit chunk from the lines, like 1 and 7 was Transit operating under name Transurb that is from Wairarapa which probably Chris Ladlaw has some corrupt coonection with this company. Funny that after the whole operation has been passed to Transub, Chris Laidlaw left the GWCC. Transurb started with 07 double deckers electric battery buses as they would not be able to buy more than thoses. The rest 10% went to NZBus, today is under new ownership from Australian company Kninect. They broguht 50 new chinese eletric buses and Transit brought other 30 mixed with Kiiwi and chinese electric buses. From what I heard they break down quite often. GWCC wanted to make sure that NZBUS would not have chance to bid for the big lines and removing the trolleybus was one of them because the infrestructure was from WCC thorugh another private company but GWWC was paying for the maintenance. NZBUS owened the trolleybus.

[@Novusod]

Wellington got swindled by conman.

[@cityforall]

Wow, very interesting, thanks for this comment. There are always complex political combinations behind such decisions, and this is the same case here. It is a pity that it happened this way.

[@joshuahill6153]

It was more a legal reasoning rather than a political combination. The PTOM system bought organisation but bought chaos simultaneously because of cost cutting measures incited onto bus companies forcing lower quality services. Poor vehicle age, poor driver pay resulted in cancellations and unreliable services up until 2023/2024 when driver pay was increased to $6 from minimum wage to $28-$30 an hour. Ironically, investment companies that took over operations from local bus companies have the large investment capital to invest in electric vehicles undermining the local operators and snuffing them out. Unless you are an established local bus operator with a large backing, you closed. Many small mum & pop operations shut consequently. From 2017 - 2024 when PTOM was announced, many local operators couldn't compete with the cheaper costs of investment companies and sold up, to the exact same investment companies. Causing great bus companies, with built for purpose facilities and buses to be cut and sold to save money and make money for American and Canadian investment firms.

[@Krasbin]

Cars are already heavily subsidized since the roads they use are typically built with public budgets.

[@Krasbin]

@@xr6lad Yes, largely because cars are subsidized much more than any other form of transportation. People forget the difficulties of road construction.

[@thomasdrakes3875]

Public budgets paid for by the tax payer. That doesn't make them subsidized

[@pinkyfull]

In New Zealand local road maintenance is funded around 50% (it varies) from council rates, so you are exactly right. The other 50% comes from a transport fund which is variously funded from taxes as well as levies on fuel and other vehicle registrations.

[@dragonrings14]

Road programmes in NZ are maintained thanks to the NLTP (National Land Transport Programme) which is funded by the NLTF (National Land Transport Fund). This fund is made by collecting fuel duty and road user charges. The people who drive cars pay to maintain the roads, maintain public transport and enforce road safety too.

[@agh0x01]

@@thomasdrakes3875 here in NZ roads are subsidised because we have few toll roads and are motoring mad. NZ local roads receive a 49% ratepayer subsidy, regardless of whether property owners own cars or even drive.

[@RatelHBadger]

I had a good friend who was a GO Wellington network controller, had a stroke on the job because the system was woefully inadequate. Ridiculously understaffed, the buses were also severely limited to the number of runs they could do a day, so he was essentially busting a gut to keep things going, and getting complaints from EVERYONE all day. R.I.P Dom mate, you deserved better.

[@cityforall]

Oh, this is very sad

[@Ligands23]

"Always considered New Zealand to be a super eco-friendly country that cares about the environment" - yeahhh, that's just the marketing. It's like how America calls itself 'the free world' despite, well, y'know lol... But also, as a Wellingtonian, our local council/government is just a shitshow when it comes to public transport (hence why the infrastructure never got work in 60 years, I guess ^_^;) Great vid, I had no idea they were selling off the buses as 'tiny homes', that's nuts.

[@jeremybell1606]

New Zealand and public transportation infrastructure is a sad story 😅

[@dragonrings14]

All New Zealand infrastructure is a sad story

[@Myrtone]

I wonder if that is mainly because cities like Auckland and Wellington are pathetically low density.

[@mattsmocs3281]

The trolley bus is genuinely the safest (still causes tire pollution) and greenest (again tire pollution) you can have on a transit, battery buses are not just a placebo but are giant bombs that constantly blow up and are terrible on any route that isn't a loop around the block.

[@phipschi4255]

Neither are they good for the cobalt mines in the congo. Im also pretty sure that they have a worse energy efficency than Trolley busses due to their increased weight becaude of the (larger) batteries.

[@CharlsonS]

So many factually wrong things in a single comment lmao. Neither are BEBs "bombs" nor are they terrible to use. It's the exact opposite from what you say, safety wise they are pretty much on par with trolleybuses, as batteries contrary to what some people believe are not exactly prone to catching fire if you don't do cost cutting. (Pretty much all modern trolleybuses are equipped with batteries). Same story for operations, range is really good nowadays and the complete lack of wires is a big cost and operational benifit. That's why battery electrics are spreading rapidly and replacing diesel buses up and down the world.

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

@@CharlsonSbattery buses ARE EXPENSIVE, more expensive than trolleybuses. And chargers are expensive too. The batteries on the trolleybuses arent the same size of those of the buses as far as I know, because they have in motion charge. And sadly, battery buses ALSO replace trolleybuses, which is a MISTAKE.

[@CharlsonS]

@MarceloBenoit-trenes the price tag for bebs and trolleybuses is about the same. But infrastructure wise the battery bus wins out on 95% of all cases. I agree though that replacing trolleybuses should not be a priority. Killing the wellington network like that was stupid.

[@meofnz2320]

Nonsense, I have first hand experience driving a mixed fleet of electric and diesel buses. The electric buses only drawback is that they are heavier. Other than that they are very efficient and have had no significant issues.

[@inzana2]

The thing about NZ is that cities have been designed around the US model of forced subsidized carparking via minimum parking requirement bylaws which were only recently outlawed by the previous government. This has shaped our cities and towns to be sprawling and unpleasant to walk or cycle around, and pushed users to car mode of transport. According to NZTA research, the average cost of providing a single carpark in NZ is around NZ$70,000. Since this cost is usually not borne by the user, the idea that carparking is "free" becomes an accepted norm, the cost of the land used for carparking, the cost of draining that land the cost of running utilities across that land, the reduction in quality of life, etc., most people are oblivious to how that cost is added to pretty much anything you buy or do. So if a council proposes spending on public transport, they compare it to driving, most of the cost for which they are oblivious to.

[@socialite1283]

The root cause of the demise of our Trolley Bus service dates back to when Wellington Transport was owned by the Wellington City Council. There was a certain staff member who actively pushed to get rid of the trolley bus service, and began the long term practise of poor maintenance of the trolley bus power network. I don't know of anyone who supported the closure of the trolley bus service.

[@milokojjones]

The trolleybusses being out of date and unusable after like 5 years of use is a total load of BS. Here where I live, we used to have trolleybusses from the 80's and 90's running just fine, basically running for 30 - 40 years ( with maintenance and modernizations ). They were only decomissioned last year, because they were the last high floor trolleybusses in the system. In the mechanical sence, they could have probably continued running for another decade or two, maybe even longer. If NZ had 5 years old, modern low floor trolleybusses, there's no reason why they couldn't keep them running for another 30 years with good maintenance.

[@JRCP144]

The lack of route flexibility caused problems with population growth - a bus doesn't have to go everywhere, but if you want people to take the bus, there needs to be a reasonably well-serviced route near them. Trolley busses served older suburbs, but those suburbs weren't growing as fast as newer suburbs with no overhead wires. Add in that there's no dedicated school bus fleet - rather school busses are operated by stagecoach/go wellington/metlink - and the limited number of viable routes was a significant factor in getting rid of trolley busses. I really liked the trolley busses, but when they were phased out there was a definite reduction in how often the bus was late. During the crossover period I could actually guess which kind of bus I was waiting for just by how late the service was running.

[@s1nb4d59]

As a kiwi im disgusted by the wellington bureaucracy,its never worked for the interests of wellingtonians and the fact we lost them will be a shame on all the people involved in the demise of this icon.

[@MervynPartin]

I first saw the Wellington trolleybuses during a visit to NZ in the 1970s and on a more recent visit. When I heard that Wellington was scrapping its system, I was shocked. NZ is normally associated with progressive care for the environment, but this is the opposite. What has happened to the country? When controversial decisions are made that make no sense, it is worthy of investigation into who gains. Here in the UK, large parts of the rail network were closed under the jurisdiction of a government minister who was involved in a motorway construction company- he later fled to Monaco to escape prosecution for tax evasion. As they say, follow the money.

[@Myrtone]

Additionally, New Zealand has a large supply of hydroelectric power and also some geothermal power, which is sure to make mains power really cheap, so even leaving aside environmental issues, trolleybus abandonment might still be questionable.

[@omnicity43]

Something else worth a mention is that some of the trolleybus wiring was shipped to the UK to be used at Beamish Museum and the East Anglia Transport Museum when the system was closed. Quite a bit of it has been used at Beamish as spare parts, the infrastructure wasn’t bad at all …..

[@cityforall]

The more comments this video gets - the more strange this situation looks :)

[@Myrtone]

@@cityforall However, don't expect trolleybuses to make a comeback in Wellington, or anywhere else outside mainland Europe.

[@harryjames8064]

As a new zealander, all I will say is that we are a country with an enviroment that deserves to be protected but not one that does protect its enviroment. We all so have the highest rate of car ownership per capita in the world.

[@cityforall]

That's for sure. I had naïve expectations that New Zealand would behave similarly to Norway in developing renewable energy and electric transport, but it turns out that it's the other way around.

[@pinkyfull]

@@cityforall There isn't exactly a huge fund of natural gas. What New Zealand does have is abundant agricultural resources. But its harder to create a sovereign wealth fund with taxes on farms when the farmers are constantly lobbying government to remove legislation and reduce taxes. And our current government is a shit show of conflicts of interest and obliteration of the environment for financial gain. If you want to be sad about something look up the Fast Track Consenting bill and be sad for an afternoon. Unfortunately I live here so i get to be sad ALL THE TIME about it.

[@dragonrings14]

@@cityforall You can't compare a remote island nation to a European one. New Zealand has actually been one of the more progressive and environmentally conscious nations in the world. But we have some issues other nations might not have: 1) Earthquake prone 2) We can't do business with neighbouring nations without planes or boats 3) Quite a young nation/not much existing infrastructure 4) We rely heavily on import/export 5) Rough terrains 6) Not the strongest dollar or highest GDP when compared with similarly developed nations 7) Things we rely on: dairy farming, sheep farming, tree cutting, etc. (things the rest of the world needs btw) all add to the picture that NZ isn't environmentally friendly thanks to carbon taxing and emissions.

[@dragonrings14]

@@pinkyfull Bud, all I wanna say is every NZ government is a shit show. Labour have no backbone, National just want a pay cheque, Greens are hypocrites, ACT are wankers, NZFirst are all talk, no substance and The Maori Party are a bunch of racists. The entire nation is becoming more divided over stupid identity politics and instead of putting out the fires, politicians are pouring gasoline.

[@Xen_sama]

@@dragonrings14 It's not a good analysis of the situation. 1) Japan is much, much worse when it comes to Earthquakes. It's not an excuse. 2) Boats are the primary vehicle of trade. The fact that there's no land neighbour is meaningless. 3) Singapore is much much younger. Norway is not old as well. The issue has nothing to do with that. 4) As in every other country in the modern world, for example, Norway. 5) New Zealand terrains are actually quite mild, with an abundance of arable land. 6) This is a consequence, not a cause. In conclusion, you can compare anything to anything - you yourself did exactly that. The issues New Zealand has are primarily due to poor planning, complacency and decades of bad decisions. To be fair, it is far from doom and gloom. There was a fair bit of good policies and decisions as well. That's why New Zealand is doing fairly ok.

[@westfailia]

i know it's shocking that the wires were barely maintained but i want to add that wellington city really is that averse to spending money they lose like 40% of fresh water to leaks because they've ignored the problem of water pipes for decades as well and some of the pipes they were still relying on were made of terracotta in the 1890s. in an earthquake zone.

[@cityforall]

Reading all these comments, I cannot understand why this has not changed in so many years. Why didn't the residents elect other candidates in the local elections who would have solved these issues?

[@westfailia]

​@@cityforall a bunch of like compounding reasons: wellington specifically had restrictions that prevented density by protecting entire areas for their "character" so the tax base has remained very low, the central government refuses to help shoulder the tax burden because they have an arbitrary limit to the size of government and debt (30% of GDP for both), and NZ's local elections let landowners vote anywhere they have land so you have absentee landlords and investors voting for candidates that keep their tax costs lower. with such an entrenched refusal to spend money at all levels we're looking at billions of dollars in remedial work alone and it's killing the city lmao - we did elect our most progressive left-wing council ever and the council's advisors are successfully convincing them to avoid "unnecessary" spending and do austerity. one of the councillors in wellington actually has investment ties to infratil, that company that now owns the buses, and the council just sold its share of the airport to them, which he got to vote on!

[@countessmargoth469]

@@westfailia That's the heart of it really. NZ is addicted to low density housing which simply does not pay the bills so instead of borrowing money or you know trying to fix it, councils elect to kick the can down the road when it comes to paying for city maintenance. That catches up with you eventually and now Wellington has a colossal bill to fix the problems now and a central government that will not help because they are busy with tax cuts for rich people. Wellington is not alone in this. Similar problems in every city and the same approach.

[@Secretlyanothername]

​@@westfailiaWellington could really have become a better city had they embraced growth in the 2000s and 2010s. Now it's a tired sad shell of a city

[@ergotot45]

A surprise in NZ? not really , after all there is the North Island Main Trunk railway line, the majority of which is electrified, yet Kiwi Rail wanted to ditch electric operation. However they were forced to reluctantly overhaul the 15 or so serviceable locomotives. Currently none of these have re entered service and all tains are hauled with 2 diesel locomotives each! The most current transportation fiasco here though is the imminent cancellation of two new super ferries for Inter-Island service. The new government cut funding and are now forcing the operator to consider buying yet more secondhand vessels and giving thought to ending the provision of a ferry to carry rail traffic................."clean and green New Zealand" is a nonsense

[@cityforall]

Now I see, things are not what I was thinking about :)

[@danieleyre8913]

That’s not really a fair comparison. Because the NZ railway network is nowhere near busy enough to benefit from electrification. Electrification, beyond being very expensive to implement, is also expensive to maintain. It needs heavy traffic and frequent movements to be justified. The north Island main trunk was electrified between Longburn and Te Rapa in the 1980s mostly due to the problems with inclines in the central North Island between the Manawatu and Waikato, and back when engines for diesel-electric locomotives were not as powerful nor as efficient as what is available today. And also when the freight traffic along the NIMT was much heavier than what it has seen since the closure of many industries and manufacturing during the 1980s and 1990s. So in the age of the OPEC oil shock; it made sense to electrify the NIMT, but it was struggling to justify continuing with it by the turn of the new century. It is simply much more economical to just use the DL locomotives that entered service 10-15 years ago than to refurbish let alone replace the EF electrics. And besides; the emissions from the operation of Diesel-electric locomotives are minuscule in the bigger picture. Certainly compared to the emissions from road freight. Before you run down New Zealand you should maybe be aware of the electrification of the Auckland urban rail network in the last 15 years? Or the greater adoption of buses powered by electric motors and batteries?

[@MarceloBenoit-trenes]

@@danieleyre8913 trolleybuses and trams are faaar better than battery buses...

[@danieleyre8913]

@@MarceloBenoit-trenes Erm you’re probably correct. But I don’t see what that’s got to do with what we were discussing.

[@keacoq]

@@danieleyre8913 That comment is a demonstration of the mindset against electric traction. The infrastructure is in place. NZ electricity is near zero-emissions. And diesel train emissions are not insignificant. But yes, if less capacity is required, you can do without electric traction because you can accept slower trains. Whether it saves any money in the long term is another question. But it probably makes it harder to return to electric traction in the future. A decision for which reasons were found!

[@Starkus23]

Great video. It‘s literally the neoliberal play book step-by-step: Public service is too expensive -> privatise it to become "more efficient" -> service turns to shit and the operators can’t turn a profit -> "this service is so bad, we should abolish it entirely."

[@cityforall]

Curiously, I have heard from other people that the neoliberal pattern is to invest in public transportation instead of developing infrastructure for private cars. And that this is literally leftism and nearly totalitarian communism.

[@flag_sh]

Yes exactly, privatisation almost never benefits the people in the long term

[@rolandharmer6402]

Excellent - well said! Thanks for posting. A recent study indicates that in some cases battery trolleybuses are CHEAPER than pure battery buses - see ‘Urban Transport Magazine’. With battery buses there is a lot of weight to carry around - for a double decker upwards of two and a half tonnes (equivalent to 32+ passengers) and the buses take time to recharge.

[@bando-q8t]

The sad thing is that NZ produces significant amounts of electricity (most of it from hydro too) and very little oil and gas (none of which can be refined into diesel here either). Scrapping the trolley buses means more money sent overseas and is another little step towards us being less self-reliant as a country than in the past.

[@Myrtone]

Exactly, so even leaving aside environmental issues, trolleybus abandonment, not only in Auckland but earlier trolleybus abandonment elsewhere under the cloud. Worse still, cities like Auckland and Wellington are pathetically low density.

[@golyj000]

That's quite an epic fail. Maybe, just maybe, that was a corruptive lobby of bus manufacters?

[@cityforall]

Who knows... But as I saw this new electric buses are made in China.

[@strassenbahnfilmguy9306]

Shameful

[@marktownend8065]

Or big oil who knew there would be big difficulties in the battery-only option that could eek out some more petroleum sales for a few years until better batteries or something else comes along. The next dead end scam they'll come up with is hydrogen becasue there's a role for middle men in producing and distribution of the fuel big oil can expoit.

[@PaulInPorirua]

There’s no need for conspiracy theories. The Regional Council didn’t want to pay the 50m and listened to shrill, anti-bus voices who wanted the trollies out of the way. It was bad local governance. Wellington is still trying to work out what it’s transport future will look like.

[@sw6188]

They say that history repeats itself and no truer statement has been made where public transport is concerned in NZ. This country has a history of building excellent public transport systems then scrapping them. Auckland, New Plymouth and Dunedin had electric trolley bus networks and like Wellington they scrapped them over time. Auckland also had an extensive tram network which served the people very well. It too was scrapped (1956), in favour of motor buses. Ironically, Auckland has recently looked at building a new light rail system, as has Wellington. In both cases the plans were fundamentally flawed and it was a blessing that neither was given the green light to be built. In Auckland, much of the network in the CBD was planned to be underground. That is not only expensive (tunneling costs a lot of money), it defeats the whole purpose of light rail which is to use existing roadway surfaces. It makes light rail accessible and keeps the construction and maintenance costs down. In Wellington, the plan was to have one line which ran from the CBD out to Island Bay. It didn't even go to the airport. Only a small percentage of the population would have had the benefit of using the system. It defies belief that a council could be so bone-headed as to allow an electric form of public transport to be scrapped and replaced with buses that run on fossil fuels. The only rational answer to this is that there was significant political influence involved.

[@countessmargoth469]

Everyone has been baffled by the both light rail projects in Auckland and Wellington. They both were unrealistic and proposed to be as ineffective and expensive as possible. You'll forgive me for putting my tinfoil hat on for a moment but one can only suspect these proposals were designed to fail. Like oh no look how expensive this is, best not do that. So what was the point? You are right, there's obviously some shady politics going on in the background.

[@sw6188]

@@countessmargoth469 I'm not one to buy into conspiracy theories but add this into the mix: In South Auckland, land was set aside at Puhinui for a 7 km spur from the main railway line to the airport. That land was sold off not long ago and has now been built on. About the same time, the overbridge at Neilson St in Onehunga which allowed the Onehunga railway line to head towards the wharf was removed. This was to be the alternative route for the heavy rail connection to the airport via a bridge over the Manukau Harbour. With the overbridge now gone from Neilson St, there is no possibility of that line getting to the airport that way. Coincidental? Conspiracy to prevent heavy rail ever reaching the airport? You be the judge.

[@countessmargoth469]

@@sw6188 Conspiracy or extreme incompetence. Neither are a good look.

[@deserteagle-nx1hl]

9:48 Those electric prong thingies were constantly detaching from overhead wire conductors. They drove the passengers mad with delay frustration. As a Kiwi who lived in Wellington between 1994-2005, I say good riddance to the annoying trolley buses.

[@njd2342]

Err the pole problems got fixed by a local engineer.

[@keahnig164]

I'm so glad, that my city is planning to increase it's trolleybus network

[@cityforall]

Good for you!

[@cityforall]

Tallinn?

[@o_s-24]

Same here! But they're doing very very slowly...

[@cityforall]

@@o_s-24 where is here?

[@o_s-24]

@@cityforall Yerevan, Armenia

[@ophereon]

Thanks for covering this! It's truly been frustrating watching our public transport network get worse and worse... Our network was touted as the best in the country for a long time, super reliable and extremely convenient. But, the triple-term National government put quite a few nails in the coffins. Perhaps the worst one of all was the Public Transport Operating Model, which saw the network being cut up into pieces and contracted out to many different operators, who don't share busses or drivers. And then these operators, being companies who need to make profit, saw fit to underpay their drivers, and cause massive shortage problems across the network, with busses being cancelled left and right. It became possibly the least reliable transport network I've ever seen. For a whole month the network was changed to operate on a decreased weekend schedule while the councils tried to sort something out. With the return of the Labour government, things started to look up again (like you mention with the lifeline they considered throwing the trolley busses). They repealed the PTOM policy (although contracts have not yet terminated), and they put in plans for light rail through the city, connecting all of the CBD and eventually extending out to the airport (for some perspective, for a time we had no public transport directly to our airport at all, which was ridiculous). But... Lo and behold, as soon as National got in again last year, they scrap all the nice public transport plans for the city (along with many other things), to try and save money for their tax cuts. No more light rail! No more ferry upgrade! At least they've not yet tried to reinstate the PTOM, so there's still a chance that the councils could take back control of the network and operate it in-house, whenever these contracts lapse. It really makes me angry seeing such stupid decision making, it's not even well-intentioned disagreement about how best to do something, it's just malicious underfunding and outsourcing of a public good, with rose-tinted glasses of an American-style car-topia and zero understanding of the ramifications. Wellington is a very narrow city, constrained by its geography. With such narrow transport corridors, public transport is vital to ensure people can move efficiently. That's perhaps the reason that our rail system is so important to the city in relation to our population and size, and why I wish they would expand the rail system even further.

[@RaglansElectricBaboon]

Visited NZ in 2010 and loved it. Moved to NZ in 2011 and am still here. I love it but sadly its not the green place you think of & see as a tourist. I think the main reason we have so much nature is that the population density has been very low for a long time. We mess up more per capita but there were not so many people here. Now the population is climbing rapidly. We have a 'business first, everything else third' Government which makes the outlook pretty grim.

[@DavidScott-hi4fz]

This is a GREAT video. The same thing is happening in New Zealand again with the interisland ferries. I look forward to a video on that in a few years.

[@cityforall]

Thank you very much! I'm glad you liked it!

[@craigforsberg1972]

But of mis information sorry, the first new trollybus was not called Designline but the company that built it was called Designline, made in Ashburton new Zealand

[@edwardfletcher7790]

Lesson number one, Public Transport systems should NEVER be for profit. They're a Public SERVICE !!!

[@gamemak0r]

Flexibility in Wellington is important because of roadworks and road closures. If there is an accident on the road, it takes a really long time to relieve because the roads are so narrow and hilly.

[@cityforall]

This is exactly what autonomous trolleybuses are for, as they can run without being connected to the overhead wires.

[@gamemak0r]

@@cityforall we would need a robust ticketing system first

[@keacoq]

Good video. Fits with what I know. I was born in Wellington. My father was an NZR engineer in a group responsible for railways electric traction. Two ideas that I learnt partly from him: 1. Right wing economics prefers diesel. Conceptually simpler and you do not have to employ or listen to technical people. People who can drive and maintain diesels are easier to find and cheaper. And with diesel decisions can be made on short term considerations. Similar considerations went into the decision to stop using the railways electric traction between Hamilton and Palmerson North. 2. The big problem with electric traction is that the equipment lasts too long. It will still work when old and rattly. Was a problem with trams. Perhaps a factor with the infrastructure also. A pity that no other city was able to use the Wellington trolley buses.

[@quitlife9279]

Trolley buses are indeed outdated though, it would have been stupid for the city to spend large amounts of money maintaining(or more like rebuilding) the infrastructure to run trolley buses when electric buses were arriving onto the market. They were right to phase out the trolley buses, but the way it was done was certainly inefficient, though I assume they had no option as the infrastructure had degraded to such an extent after decades of neglect that trolley buses couldn't even reliably function anymore.

[@Myrtone]

Trolleybuses are electric buses, however it looks like they are indeed considered outdated outside mainland Europe.

[@budsnz]

The bus network is being electrified, a new mass charging station is being developed in Lyall Bay. The trolleys didn't go everywhere and were constantly stopping in the wind, on hills and on corners. Not repairing infrastructure is a definite Wellington thing.

[@Secretlyanothername]

Thank you for being sensible

[@Pipe42]

Trolley buses are attractive from an environmental POV but the council's decision made sense when looked at from the bus network management POV. A few things to consider: Overhead wires cannot cover the entire city / every route, which means a mix of diesel and trolley buses is required. Drivers needed specific training for the trolley buses, which meant increased cost and less flexibility in scheduling Only 12% of the bus route network was covered by wires, so any increased maintenance costs to keep such a small section of the network operating was difficult to justify. (The flip side of that is because the trolleybuses were a relatively small proportion of the bus network, scrapping them and moving to modern diesels meant a relatively small increase in emissions.) The wires made the network inflexible - it was expensive to add or change routes, and there more difficulties, eg the need to schedule diesel buses when roadworks are on wired routes. Also, the wires were ugly! Visual pollution throughout the city. The streetscape is much nicer without them. Overhead wire maintenance was costly and complex because, of course, *all* the wires were located over streets full of other vehicles and pedestrians. With these facts in mind, hopefully we can have a more nuanced view of why the trolleybuses were scrapped.

[@Myrtone]

Another thing that would really make the streetscape nicer, mostly not along bus routes is replacing overhead power poles with underground cabling. Also, given those things to consider, how come a large number of trolleybus system survive elsewhere and some are being expanded. Also modern trolleybuses are not limited to their wires, they have batteries for off-wire manoeuvres. How can overhead wire maintenance be justified in many other cities but not in Wellington?

[@SeeIHaveFriends]

yeahhhh i've. nevr heard good things about any of the councils in the greater wellington region, and I live there. The council members top goal is making money for their mates, including landlords and developers. It's making life worse for everyone who lives here

[@misterfengtau]

As a Wellington resident for nearly 50 years, it's not all doom and gloom and neoliberal conspiracies that the city seems to thrive on. The trolley buses were slow and prone to "de-pole". Not all major routes were trolley ones, the Wadestown route (first trolley route) was extended to Wilton which would have involved a massive amount of work installing the overhead network for relatively few Wilton passengers. But now we regularly have battery buses on the route which are quieter and quicker. Eventually all the diesels will be replaced with battery ones. A battery bus can be much quicker than a trolley due to the issue of the trolley poles detaching from the overhead at higher speeds.

[@Phil-oj5nr]

De-wiring as it is called is very rare. My home town in UK had a very good trolleybus system. Wellington also had a good system. I have travelled on both systems many times and rarely saw a de-wiring. On a recent trip to Wellington I saw many more diesel buses than electrically powered ones, so the claim they would turn over to all battery-electric buses within 5 + years is wrong. They should have run the trolleys until the diesel fleet was replaced by battery-electric buses, meaning they would still be running. We were never shown how the authorities came to the $50 million to upgrade the overhead trolley wires. Something very fishy there!

[@jemmywuk]

I liked the Wellington trolley buses very much, but their poles falling off the lines wasn't rare, it was a daily occurrence.

[@elizabethnahu3422]

Yeah I do find the bus network to be better now (although their is plernty of issues). Bus routes now go all the way from the south of city (which had trolley lines) to northern suburbs (which are newer and don't have trolley lines), or all the way east to west. It's so handy and was something they couldn't do before. My bus route (in a suburb without trolleys - I don't think I ever remeber catching a trollley bus despite growing up in Wellington) doubled in length, and they also expanded the service from peak hour on weekdays only, to half hourly the entire week (with more on peak hours), meaning I no longer had to walk half an hour to the train in off-peak times. They also were able to introduce double decker buses, which was very needed on crowded routes.

[@Shot5hells]

The local government in Wellington is unbelievably incompetent. We lose like 40% of our water because they haven’t fixed the pipes in 100 years and now they’re talking about making us pay for water use instead of just fixing the neglected infrastructure. Wellington Water is run as a corporation but owned by local councils in the region, and they literally revealed out of nowhere “oh there hasn’t been fluoride in the water for 2 years”. Right now they’re trying to privatise the airport and like you said in the video about the trolley buses, it’s something they’ve already decided on and no matter what anyone says they come up with another excuse. No one knows about this shit either so there’s barely any resistance to the corruption and idiotic decision making.

[@fauzirahman3285]

I feel it's sad to lose the only left hand traffic trolleybus (as far as I know). Remember riding it in the last week of its operations.

[@cityforall]

As far as I know now there is only one 3,7 km line in Japan, that operates in the tunnel with 8 trolleybuses on it.

[@fauzirahman3285]

@@cityforall oh yeah forgot about that one. I think there used to be two and I thought they've both closed but I guess one might still be operating.

[@Myrtone]

@@cityforall And that will be converted to battery operation next year. It looks like there won't be any more right-hand driver trolleybuses ever again.

[@getahanddown]

Our current government is reaching out to mining companies offering to fast track their applications and cut oversight. Currently the govt. are courting a gold mine, trying to convince them to set up upstream from the Waikoropupū Springs. The largest fresh springs in the Southern Hemisphere and some of the cleanest water ever found.

[@Phil-oj5nr]

Something very fishy about the closing of Wellington trolleybus system. No one has ever provided proof of the alleged $50 million to upgrade the overhead power lines. The buses themselves had a good 10 to 12 years use left in them.

[@o_s-24]

This trend is extremely disappointing. I hope the biggest networks will not dismantled...oh wait

[@francoisperrot4890]

You should also make a video about "Nancy failed Tram" city. A built-up area about 300 000 inhabitants chosen in the 80's to be one of french Tram renewal (Tramway Français Standard). They refused because of dedicated lanes needed and prefered Trolleybus. Within 15 years, instead of Tram they chose a system that has been abandonned since "TVR" from Bombardier, selled as a"Tram on wheels" without much dedicated lanes needed and using ex-Trolleybus wires. It failed again and was dismantled in the end of 2020's... to be replaced by another Trolleybus ! Incredible as politician didn't want the Tram to be installed there. It became one of the only agglomeration this size in France without a Tram (Toulon as well for some other political reasons and Lens also, who prefered BRT) !

[@cityforall]

Actually I'm preparing a video where this system will be also mentioned. So I would be very grateful for useful links about the history of this project.

[@vlspat]

Our record on infrastructure investment in general is abysmal. The trolley buses, which were unreliable but fun, is one example. The defunding of KiwiRail is another. Our storm and wastewater facilities are yet another. The trolley buses are a symptom of a much bigger problem with infrastructure investment here.

[@cityforall]

But why does it happen? Is the problem with the central government or local authorities? In any case, why don't people elect a different authorities instead of the ones that do bullshit?

[@tamsinb-g4326]

@@cityforall I think there's fault with both central and local government. At the local govt level, councils have tended to want to spend money on flashy pet projects (e.g. Wellington's new convention centre, waterfront redevelopment, and there was talk about a movie museum for ages that I think has finally been sunk) because they're more glamorous than keeping infrastructure maintained (which people can't see and don't tend to care about until it breaks). On the central govt side, central govt has been passing responsibilities onto local govts without adequately resourcing them, and while limiting how much they can borrow. The Public Transport Operating Model, which required councils to contract out their public transport to the lowest bidders, was also imposed onto local govts by central govt. Adding to all that, there was a massive wave of deregulation and privatisation in the 80s and 90s, which was led by central govt but which local govts have also been involved in. Lots of buying into neoliberal ideas that govt should do as little as possible and private businesses are the best and most efficient at running things. In a lot of cases, private owners ran things into the ground (e.g. the rail network, which was eventually brought back under govt ownership in the 00s but with a big backlog of maintenance and other issues). Turnout for local govt elections is low (usually in the 30%-40% range iirc). Over the last few decades most local govt voters have tended to be older, usually owning their own houses and cars, opposed to any development that could lower property values (e.g. allowing more housing development), and opposed to any increases in council rates (which would be needed to get the $$ to properly fund/maintain infrastructure). The low voter turnout also makes it fairly easy for a relatively small but motivated ideological group to gain control. There's also a lot of confusion about the responsibilities of the different levels of local govt that we have - city council vs. regional council, where the regional council makes public transport decisions but the city council was often blamed. I've also spoken to quite a few people who don't vote in local govt elections because they don't know who to vote for - local govt gets little media coverage and candidates usually aren't aligned with the big national-level political parties. You have to spend time doing research to figure out who actually has what policies at the local govt level, and obviously not everyone has the time/energy/resources to do this. There are signs of hope. Wellington's housing supply got so bad that it mobilised a bunch of mostly younger people who have campaigned successfully to allow for much more housing development (getting rid of a lot of 'character' restrictions that prevented or heavily limited building in certain areas). There's an interesting article about the developing shift in attitudes here: thespinoff.co.nz/politics/22-02-2024/the-old-town-and-the-new-city-a-battle-of-two-wellingtons

[@etkbruze5526]

QUALITY video and very informative mate, awesome

[@cityforall]

I'm glad you liked it!

[@joedennehy386]

Wellington has the best public transport system in New Zealand, i took trolley buses for years to school. It was madness to quit them

[@__Lachie]

I’m sad that they removed the trolly busses. When I lived in Wellington I always used to love catching them.

[@theNZmatt]

great video , thank you. I Live in New Zealand public transport is not the worst problem how ever it is expensive, A 50min trip of 60km into the city is over $15. the worst thing is how bad the roads are designed with no regard for efficiency, i was told traffic lights are better than round abouts because the old people in my town find it easier to negotiate, one could even go as far to say its designed badly on purpose but than a different story.

[@cityforall]

Thank you, I'm very glad you liked it! I've read so much criticism of New Zealand in the comments here that I wonder if it's really that bad?

[@theNZmatt]

@@cityforall it's not all that bad it's probably better than west Africa but it could be much better to say the least.

[@countessmargoth469]

New Zealand is an incredibly backwards country. Like our housing and public transport are appalling but we think this is normal, and yet we have the option to fix it, but choose not to. Don't want to tax the suburban SUV driving boomers too much do we.

[@brentsummers7377]

Bet the drivers don't miss having to re-attach the poles that tend to come off on tight turns. For example there were some tight turns going off Lambton Quay. Not much fun for the driver when there is a howling Southerly and about 8 degrees!😂

[@notasherflynn]

I just thought it was kinda like a tourist attraction. I saw those GO busses as a kid and thought they were the coolest thing ever as I'd never seen trolley buses before, and came back this year only to find they were gone. They were always a part of Wellington's character and appeal to me, so I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bummed about them shutting down. Thanks for the vid though! Was really wondering what happened to them. Kinda sad they ignored the public opinion just like with the silly chlorinated water thing

[@obi1kahnobee549]

I worked on the power supplies for the buses they had mercury arc rectifiers and asbestos clad switch gear take the sub station in Duncan Terrace Kilbirnie in between two blocks of flats in a fire toxic mercury gas would kill dozens. The Wakefield street sub station is underneath the Amora Hotel is the same only the danger to the public on a busy city street is immense. The cost to replace equipment in dozens of these sites is huge just to make them safe also the overhead lines were heavy being a solid copper conductor about 20mm in diameter that put huge strain on the poles that supported them and constantly failing. In short I am glad they are gone it was only a matter of time before there was a major accident. Maybe if the councils over time had invested in upgrading the power system instead of adding sand every year to Oriental Parade they might have had a longer life and been more reliable.

[@alexandermoore2982]

Ok but as a vehicle enthusiast it was also incredibly sad to lose the entire fleet of Designline trolleys-some of the last NZ-designed and built vehicles ever! Now they just use Chinese and British hybrid and EV buses that are so boring. :(

[@cityforall]

I guess there's nothing like a transport museum that preserves old units?

[@alexandermoore2982]

@@cityforall UK has several but not sure if they'll make the voyage. Not sure of any in NZ or Down Under.

[@schlookie]

​@cityforall there used to be a trolly bus museum in Foxton, which is about 100km north of wellington. Unfortunately, the museum lacks support and fell in disuse.

[@quarterkicker]

Was this video constructed from news articles only? As a local there is a lot of detail and nuance missing, you are portraying it as some kind of shining beacon of urban infrastructure when that is just not true.

[@Tuhoeterra]

yeah Wellington regional council really fucked us over with there insistence on contracting the cheapest bidder. In wellington we used to get mad if the bus was 5 minutes late, now we're just happy if they show up with the new hub and spoke routing system.

[@cityforall]

I hope the citizens will choose another candidates in the next elections, because this sounds like a complete failure.

[@shoutatthesky]

An ecofriendly country that cares about the environment? That's the sort of thing a foreigner would say! Have you seen how much dairy farming goes on here?

[@stuartdouce]

wellington only had 60 trolley buses and they only ran mon to fri.

[@cityforall]

60 is quite a lot

[@stuartdouce]

@@cityforall not compared to the 300 diesels they had at the same time that operated 7 days a week.

[@ingramdw1]

Welcome to New Zealand where infrastructure maintenance is a confusing concept to our local governments. The trolley bus network is but one example of this. Now we are facing a giant problem with our water networks, some of which hasn't been maintained for a century. The fresh water network failures are problematic with water restrictions in the summer while leaks abound everywhere. The wastewater failures are ... worse. It seems that previous governments decided to shortcut on infrastructure maintenance to spend on roads and artworks and keeping rates low, and now we are facing with enormous rises in property taxes to catch up.

[@ergotot45]

as a further irony, an Australian company was given the job of removing the overhead infrastructure....for a cost of 3 million dollars I believe

[@gringene_bio]

Not too long after the copper for most of the wires had been replaced.

[@rus0004]

I want to know who is benefiting from the introduction of all these battery operated vehicles. Who is greasing who's palms. Because they're not more economically viable than overhead powered transport, and they're certainly not more environmentally friendly! Yet everyone is pushing for battery cars, battery buses, battery trains, battery planes. Is it the cobolt lobby passing notes to politicians under the desk? Or are people just that stupid that they believe the electricity that comes out of a battery is better than the electricity that comes from an overhead wire?

[@golyj000]

Some chinese manufacturer, most likely. They lobby moving to the electric buses in plenty of relatively poor countries

[@sillysad3198]

i think these palms are self-greasing. seriously. it is in the best interest of A govrnmnt to minimize and possibly eliminate any traces of self-sustainability of the subject population. and batteries are a part of restricting mobility. and they prevent any attempt at energy independence (you just can't store an extra gallon of electricity for a bad day). plus fire hazard. plus rapid value depriciation -- you can not invest in these bataries because they are perishable. from every angle this benefits your governmnt.

[@sillysad3198]

in other words your govrnmnt perceives those bttries as a potential topic of *rationing*. and all governmnts loooove rationings.

[@Mcflycoolvideos]

The new busses are nice, but they’re a lot more prone to breakdowns in the hills near where I live. Very annoying.

[@vincentcalvelli6452]

A big step backwards for Wellington.

[@unconventionalideas5683]

Here in the US we do have trolleybuses in some cities, still, but of course, Wellington's buses do not conform to US crash standards and have the steering and doors on the wrong side.

[@Emperorvalse]

Oh one thing not mentioned was that the city's internet/data network was actually strung up on the overhead wire system as it was cheaper to do it this way. The operatir Wellington Cable Car earned rent from the cables.

[@cityforall]

Wow, that's interesting, I've never seen such information. And what happened to the Internet network now? It still has to go somewhere.

[@sillysad3198]

let me guess. their goal was to get rid of the overhead wires so that later to promote Batteries!!!! Yay!

[@cityforall]

Something like this

[@sillysad3198]

@@cityforall and then they can sell you thousands of specialized firefighting devices to compliment the Lithium batteries!

[@cityforall]

@@sillysad3198 oh, that's so kind :)))

[@michaelgrey7854]

New Zealand does not really do public transport that well. We even just cancelled our new interisland ferries.

[@__Lachie]

We have the dumbest, most incompetent government ever.

[@willoughby8558]

I miss the trolly busses, I only had the chance to ride them for a year or two before the change, but imo they were so much better. They were quieter, had more reliable timing, put out less fumes, and, in my limited experience, had a lot less breakdowns. Public transport in NZ has had an insane decline over the last couple of years, not just with busses, but trains as well. The amount of bus replacements I've been on in the last 4 or 5 years is ridiculous, and when the trains DO run, they are almost always either late or leave early. While the snapper system is convenient sometimes, my towns station was closed for almost a year while the system was being installed and there are so many malfunctions with the machines it's easier to just pay in cash most of the time. Most of the ticket desks are closed, so it's not possible to pre-purchase tickets in most places either.

[@cityforall]

It sounds very sad. For me, the trolleybuses also added a certain charm to the city, were its attraction, which is now gone. By the way, what is the snapper system?

[@willoughby8558]

@cityforall It's a card scanner system used to pay for transport. You get a card and put money on it, and then scan it at terminals at stations or on busses in order to pay. You scan once to get on and once to get off, and there's a fine for not scanning off, which builds up over the amount of time it takes to pay it. Most I've been fined is 10 dollars, or around 20-25 USD. The issue is that the terminals often break, so when you try to scan off, it doesn't work and you get fined. There have also been issues with adding money to cards and the money going nowhere. Like, you pay the money to put on the card, but it doesn't transfer and you just lose money. You can call the company to get your money back, but it's a major hassle and there's no guarantee they'll accept.

[@jaredleroy9876]

I think the reason they were determined to get rid of the trolley busses was because a new bus company from Australia was taking over many of the routes in Wellington, and they wanted to use double decker busses which obviously if there were cables they cannot. Most of the large double decker busses are diesel, some are electric but those ones are smaller and have similar capacity to large single decker busses. This Australian company has also made our bus routes worse, run late more often and have worse conditions and pay for the drivers.

[@cityforall]

I don't think this is the reason. The trolleybus wires hang at such a height that a double-decker bus can easily pass under them.

[@GLTeacher]

The biggest issue seems to be the privatization aka cost-cutting. You can't do the same with less, you can only do less with less.

[@andrewdavies6355]

The tolley bus routes are all now running quite nice electric busses and these main routes are now pretty good.

[@Occycat]

miss the GO busses so much :(

[@JoshuaBenbrook]

It was such a crazy decision. Also why do it overnight - they could have slowly replaced the fleet with new electric busses that didn't need wires.

[@keacoq]

They did not want to do it in stages. Stage 1 would have demonstrated the folly of what they were determined to do,

[@erinaporter1985]

Similar thing happened with NZ's rail network, Government sold it to overseas company who cut maintenance and ran it so far into the ground no one but the NZ government would buy it back. And if course when the Government bought it back it was at a massively inflamed price and we are still paying for it now.

[@Xen_sama]

Auckland also used to have a tram and trolleybus network back in the day. It was replaced by a torrent of used Japanese cars and oversized SUVs crawling in traffic jams on widened motorways scarring the city.

[@Myrtone]

I wonder if that has something to do with Auckland's pathetically low density.

[@jacktattersall9457]

New Zealand for a while tried to experiment with Thatcher's UK bus deregulation outside London.

[@mikehay9039]

It’s not just the bus infrastructure here in Wellington that wasn’t maintained. It was everything. Water, Sewerage and stormwater have been completely neglected for 60 years. Add to that the huge cost of earthquake strengthening almost every building in the city in the wake of the Christchurch and Kaikoura quakes, and the local and regional councils are close to bankruptcy. Local ratepayers simply can’t afford to fix any of these problems, so waving goodbye to the trolley buses was an easy decision to make for the sake of maybe one day being able to fix a water system that’s close to 100 years old. NZ isn’t that wealthy anymore either. Our two biggest earners were Agriculture 1st and Tourism 2nd. In addition, international student made the country a lot of money. Tourists and students haven’t returned post-COVID, so that’s tanked a massive part of our GDP. In short, the entire country’s infrastructure is failing massively, and with record inbound migration, it’s put under more pressure every day. We’re fucked basically. Don’t get me started on the unaffordable housing market….

[@theoutsider01]

I'm going to call it today. If kiwirail gets privatised as Luxon proudly uttered, it'll be TrolleyBuses II: Cancelled Everyday

[@matthewtetley7048]

You should hear about the water infrastructure too in NZ, in fact Infrastructure as a whole, whatever you consider it to be has been under invested in for too long

[@mvg2x34]

Cambridge Massachusetts in the US also decommissioned its trolleybuses. Seems contrarian but, we’ll see what the final results bring.

[@lorrainemcgrail6315]

I was in Wellington when they made the swap. It was a gd nightmare. I was so desperate I ubered to work a couple of times. Unfortunately, like a lot of countries, we under-fund our infrastructure and public services. When a system is underfunded it starts to break down which drives people crazy. The people demand a solution and as a politician it's much more exciting to say you're going to scrap the old system and replace it with something shiny and new than actually fix the old system. The trolley buses sucked, they constantly came off the wires, the system was slow and unreliable so people started complaining- instead of providing a modern, efficient update of the electric system they swapped for diesel buses for a myriad of reasons. Meanwhile drivers are still underpaid, the buses are understaffed and everything is still pretty slow and now it's EXPENSIVE

[@EmmittBrownBTTF1]

Wellington Regional council seeking international advice got bad advice from Perth West Australia - that state with the government money can buy. Some of the new busses are electric. The diesels are Euro 6. Changes to routes led to horrific delays, and bus cancellations. The Cthulhu's bioweapon struck, bringing driver shortages. Only the last year or so has the network become sort of stable. 50years of Milton Friedman had limited Council's finances.

[@newmarsvolta]

Yeh idk man, buses detour almost every day with all the roadworks here. Couldn't be done locked to a wired network.

[@cityforall]

This is exactly what trolleybuses with autonomous driving function are for. As far as I know, in Wellington, they were able to travel without a contact network

[@nashorn9745]

My city had trolleybus until 2008 the removal was in my opinion not a mistake. It was a choice between modernising the trolleybus network with its seven busses or two Streetcar extensions which are extremely popular. Most modern trolleybuses have a combustion engine or batteries to allow them to run on roads without wires. With HESS buses it is even more extrem the only thing that is different between the trolleybus and the batterie bus is the way they charge the batteries. Many other trolleybus operators in my country have startet to remove some of the wires the new buses don't need them everywhere anymore and can run into areas where trolleybuses never ran. In many European or American country's trolleybuses can no longer be operated economically if you can operate batterie buses. The trolleybus will probably go the exact same route the steam engines went in the 50's and 60's.

[@cityforall]

Can I ask what city are you talking about?

[@nashorn9745]

@@cityforall Basel Switzerland

[@cityforall]

@@nashorn9745 that's interesting, I didn't know Basel had trolleybuses in operation.

[@nashorn9745]

@@cityforall there where only ever 3 Lines and by 2008 there was only one left. The buses were very unreliable and it was common to see normal buses operating on the line. There was actually a referendum about the trolleybus and it was decided to stop running them. The trolleybuses were replaced by CNG buses which have now been replaced by electric buses. The last trolleybus route was going to the cemetery the long way around where nobody lives. The system was built after the Second World War to save on fuel. You can still see the poles where the wires were on many roads holding the street lights in the middle of the road. Basel saved most of the Trams in the 1960‘s it banned cars from the city center as one of the first city to do so. If you want to experience the even older system of combustion engine buses you need to hurry because in 2027 the last combustion engine bus will run the system will be fully electric by 2028 and after 87 years there will be no more combustion engine buses in the city.

[@cityforall]

@@nashorn9745 interesting! But you still have trams which are also great so situation is way better than in Wellington

[@JamieW907]

Don't get the wrong idea, while yes nz is a pretty clean and eco friendly country we are l very car dependant, nzs public transport has been seen as more of an after thought over the years in favour of cars. Also thanks for making a video on wellington you don't know how strange it is to see a small city you've been in for your entire life appear on a video on the internet.

[@Myrtone]

And cities like Auckland and Wellington are pathetically low density.

[@wagonmoundno.2396]

Not sure I missed it and you put it in the vid but the trolley bus wires were managed by the Wellington Cable Car as a council owned org, they were not owned or managed by the trolley bus companies since the 1990s. Sharing the same management between these two unrelated peices of infrastructure meant both ended up lacking the proper attention needed, not private company cost cutting but council management decisions.

[@cityforall]

I don't think I talked about this in the video, it's a new information for me

[@xvgm24]

WLG City Council is absolutely atrocious. Got to be one of the worst councils of any developed nation, you cannot find one person who likes the council here.

[@simonwood6932]

The trolley buses were nothing to do with Wellington City Council since the local government reforms in the late 1980s. Unfortunately these reforms resulted in a fragmented ownership and responsibility for the trolley bus power supplies, overhead wiring, buses and bus service planning and funding.

[@xvgm24]

@@simonwood6932 Thank you for the information. It's gotten to the point where it's too easy to think everything trash in WLG is because of the council haha.

[@cityforall]

Is there a chance to fix it? I mean, to elect other politicians who will be more competent and less corrupt?

[@xvgm24]

@@cityforall In the latest election we had it seemed like a fairly promising candidate got in. But based on things so far it seems like she was just speaking empty words after all (and trying to dine-and-dash one time lmao). The usual haha.

[@chocoholicmama]

@@cityforall It had nothing to do with corrupt politicians. Get your facts straight please. The best politicians cannot make money out of thin air. The same people whinging about the loss of the trolleys were also whinging about rate rises, and they weren't even the ones taking the bus.

[@nFyrin]

I live in NZ and transit in general is just atrocious. Even our roads are awful. Every single transit related project gets mired in bureaucracy and ends up costing a ridiculous amount and we have a lack of workers and engineers.

[@awblax1]

They now have many electric buses and more and more being added. The trolley bus network needed huge amounts spent on it which was less economic than buying electric buses.

[@njd2342]

No it wasn't.

[@lexy3834]

Thanks for this! I’ve been wondering how to start looking into corruption at a local level here in NZ & cried at how NZ could have its own Shinkansen considering how similar our geography is to Japan but it’s the infrastructure investments that always fail! If I reference anything in this video I’ll be sure to give credit!

[@cityforall]

Thank you, I'm glad you liked it. By the way, how did you find this video? It's not new and has long since passed its peak of popularity, but now it's starting to gain views again. I suspect that it was posted in some active community, I wonder which one.

[@Mcfreddo]

Same happened to Marsden point.